Lots talk in 2 other threads about the WCCC championships and the "spirit of the rules" and the intent of the WCCCs.
Anybody actually know what the intent is?

To answer that question, answer with another question: why does IDBF hold Worlds, WCCC, CORCOM? Is it formatted to a specific level of competition class or group? If the goal is always send your best why bother with different championships and only have one.

IF WCCC is wide open like worlds, why do we need it?

WCCC is not wide open for Canadian teams. We have the 2 PP rule and a standard to qualify as a team. In premier division we are not sending our national team , or anything close. I think DBC did a pretty good job.A variety of types teams qualified , a few good teams did not.The qualifing process involved close races. Granted , G&G dominated in Montreal but that was essentially the 3rd qualifying round for eastern teams. The best other teams had already qualified in Sudbury and Welland.
Senior is something else where the Toronto Seniors qualified as a club crew then went to the worlds a month later.That is obviously not in the "spirit" of the WCCC but I have not heard any complaints from other senior teams.Perhaps no senior teams were eliminated so there is nobody to complain.

Yes, the difference is supposed to be to cater to different levels. Worlds= the best athletes chosen of all clubs. WCCC-the best clubs in the country. difference, yes...the problem is our system in canada. A club should be able to have 800memebrs. You can chose 20 to race in your club crew. But everyone must be from this club and this club only. How do you do that...set registration dates...early ones. I don't like the idea of forcing a crew to race at 2-3 events to prove they are a CC. $$$ becomes and issue. Chose a dtes, say Jan 1st to register for a club. after that you can't change and can only add a few memebers.

Registration Date cannot be Jan 1st.Way to early.Think about it .Would never work.

"I don't like the idea of forcing a crew to race at 2-3 events to prove they are a CC. $$$ becomes and issue. "

Then they aren't a club crew. If you look at the consistent club crews, they paddle year round together, year after year, club name never changes, some faces do, but overall it's always same people. Look at MOFOs, TEMPEST, HANALEI, etc.

Yeah, club crews should only be for people who train once or twice per week!
Instead of drug testing they should test for crews that train more than the allowed amount and disqualify them.

An easy test might be

If you wear a weightlifting glove while paddling or have a website where you all do pose downs in a dimly lit basement then you are a TRUE CLUB CREW

True club crews hang out together and talk about what they should be buying at MEC and what color their race jerseys should be for next season.

so to be a club crew you must race at sanctioned events. Even if they are the same crew for 10 years and train 4 times a week and race non sanctioned events or don't even race, then they are not a club....bull sh@t

yeah but club crew average income is quadruple that of the non wearing glove types you speak for...

Yes they can afford to go buy new gear at MEC every year and they own the house where they take basement pictures. Plus they can afford to travel to several regattas a year. That's right, they're a club crew.

you may be a club in form and function but you still need to show you are legitimate within the workings of a properly regulated and policed system. its the same in almost all organized sports. look, dragon boat is definately a sport by all definitions but it is not a sport according to our government because it has not shown the proper accountability to join that family. its the same thing. clubs may exist properly but they must be accountable to dragon boat canada to gain the rights and privaleges offered by the dbc system and the system of the idbf like permission to race at world club championships. again, its the same for all sports.

Lets use this example and tell me what you think.

Montreal Elite women-2 crews (about 40 people), Montreal Elite Men 2 crews, about 40 people. come CCW time, they should be able to take the best of these 80 paddlers and make a mixed team. Doesn't matter if they raced together before, as they are all coming from the same club. First, I realize this would not work as most paddle for mixed teams already, but this is the peroblem. If DBC starts to establish clubs, can only race mens,womens, mixed for 1 club then we woiuld se our system change. There may be reduced numbers for a bit, but I feel this would solve most of our problems. you join one club and race for one club...that's it.

"Even if they are the same crew for 10 years and train 4 times a week and race non sanctioned events or don't even race, then they are not a club....bull sh@t"

Wait a minute..."or don't even race"

So you think that you can have a dragon boat club crew, THAT DOESN'T EVEN RACE?

Holy sh!t, just throw all the friggin' restrictions out the window and cry "MAYHEM!!!"

You don't even have to race and you're still a club crew. Astounding.

October 19 2005, 11:18 PM as someone else already pointed out, $$$ is not an issue since we are all already doing this and more. which camp you are in is pretty clear.

I also agree that in a perfect world every event is sanctioned so teams would have the most flexibilty to do whatever events they want. If there are only a few then I can see this program facing some issues. Teams that want the perfect world scenario can do the events with the best crews and fairest courses, but those that like their festivals could do them as well or any mix.

As for the super clubs like say Pickering, GWN and TCBA all deciding that yes we are clubs and will field our best 20 paddlers, I am not sure how they work that other than to force 4 races in which case any members of these super crews would pretty much have to leave their regular crews or race a heck of a lot and hope that the races do not conflict. Leaving your regulare crew might just be enough for most paddlers to reconsider.

PS. It is also nice to see the consistency where you turn to insulting people when you have no logical argument. It's as predictable as clockwork.

Two solitudes.
1)Dagon boat teams must all be like my team who do nothing but dragon boating.
motivation : "spirit" of the WCCC ? or make sure the flaties don't come so our team is competative.
2)Any group of people can be a dragon boat team.
motivation : "spirit" of true competition , let the best team win ? or enjoy big championships.

Why does a club have to race??? So you can prove that they are a club. As long as they are registered for that club and don't race for another, what is the problem?

To the above poster who mentioned leaving your regular team. If that's what it takes to build a club system then why not. If you choose to race for the PDBC then you race for them and them only. They may have men's women's mixed, but you can't race for a team out west as well. If you don't want to join a club and race at that level, then you are community.

The tweens are more than welcome to meet as long as they both can demonstrate participation as a dragon boat club crew. I say if the National Team wants to do Club crew then fine. All they have to do is race the required number of races. I would love to see this happen. I love to watch them race and I love racing against them.

Only someone who isn't part of a club crew doesn't get how this is such a minor detail as to be a joke. There isn't a club crew that I am amare of that doesn't already race more than the minimums being suggested so it is no sweat.

It's only the combo or select teams that are concerned because it means logistical issues for them. SRS currently only does one race a year and the chances are they could not or would not be interested in doing 3 or 4 just to qualify. While most of the paddlers with Pickering probably do plenty of races they are not for the PDBC roster, but rather for their real club teams like RBC, MOFOS, GWN Women, etc, etc, etc, so having them all do 3 or 4 for the select team would also be a problem.

Read the posts and keep those two facts in mind and you can easily see which camp everyone is in.

So to be clear. We WANT these teams to step up and compete more. They are more than welcome. We are not afraid. Bring it on.

So, say Mofo's don't race this year. Are they still a club???

Just for your information,


PDBC elite collective actually did do four races this year: Milton, Lachine, Sudbury, and Stratford. It doesn't matter that they used Milton and Lachine as development races to work on parts of their race for sudbury and then used Stratford as a fun way to end the season because they didn't have to race in Welland. They did what they set out to do and had fun the rest of the time

Isn't that what this is all about?

How could they be? Are they considered a Canoe club? A rowing club? a bowling club? A baseball team? A competitive Weight Lifting team (probably the closest, but since they don't compete, no one in the Weight Lifting world would recognize then now would they)?

No, because they don't do any of those thing.

yes they are. just not a club that would qualify for ccwc race offs. its about choices people. make yours. here's an example. tempest raced at naccc but they were not able to race off for a ccwc spot because they did not meet the rules. they are a club - yes, just not ccwc race off qualified.

Your rosters for Milton and Stratford where no where near the same as the ones for Lachine and Sudbury.

Why, because the logistics of having all your comba A crew for 4 races is to tough.

But still, a nice try. Or would you have us believe that Hanalai beat your Race Off winning crew by two boatlenghts and should have your club crew spot?

"Why does a club have to race???"

Oh my god. This shows just how wide the gap in ideologies really is when one side thinks they don't even have to enter a single race to be considered a club. According to them (or maybe just his one guy) all you need a piece of paper with 22 names on it. Voila, instint club crew.

The mind boggles.

"Why does a club have to race???"

Oh my god. This shows just how wide the gap in ideologies really is when one side thinks they don't even have to enter a single race to be considered a club. According to them (or maybe just his one guy) all you need a piece of paper with 22 names on it. Voila, instant club crew.

The mind boggles.

"I'm being told that this team hasn't competed in any qualifiers, but has just shown up to race off for the championship!

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em."

Nice try October 20 2005, 3:01 PM


"Your rosters for Milton and Stratford where no where near the same as the ones for Lachine and Sudbury.

Why, because the logistics of having all your comba A crew for 4 races is to tough.

But still, a nice try. Or would you have us believe that Hanalai beat your Race Off winning crew by two boatlenghts and should have your club crew spot?"



The X-Pads are a younger team (age wise) and therefor a large number of their paddlers were away at university instead of attending Stratford. So a mix of both teams appeared at Stratford. Not like anyone truly needs to explain it, but the two boats PDBC fielded at Milton were a mix of elite collective paddlers and x-paddlers. Not very diabolical if you ask me.

Thanks for the laugh!!!


------------------------------------------------------

"So a mix of both teams appeared at Stratford. Not like anyone truly needs to explain it, but the two boats PDBC fielded at Milton were a mix of elite collective paddlers and x-paddlers. Not very diabolical if you ask me"

I don't get it. You make my point for me. So you are agreeing that the race off team only raced the qualifier and the race off and the other races the were a combination of this roster and other Pickering teams?

********
"In 23 years of broadcasting, I thought I'd seen it all, folks. But it looks like all the combo and select team members have actually blindfolded themselves to reality."

"Yeah, they will not be able to see the truth very well, Cotton."

A proposed club crew model:
1. Create government-recognized and regulated entity (i.e. non-profit society, business, etc.). This becomes your "club".
2. Register your club with DBC and pay the appropriate administration fee.
3. Add members to your club. Any member who wants to race at a DBC event must become a DBC member and can only represent one club during one competitive season.
4. Within your club put together as few or as many teams as you like.
5. Race at as few or as many events as you like.
6. Send as few or as many teams to the race-off as you like. If multiple qualifying spots are available, your club could conceivably qualify with multiple entries. 30 (or some other number that DBC specifies) person rosters are submitted for each team.
7. Qualified teams from (6) compete at championship event with same 30 person roster as submitted at the qualifying event.

Ideally race-offs and championships are held in the same season. If not, there could be a provision to extend the 30 person roster by a few but only with people who were members of your club the year previous which prevents club switching just to race at a championship.

Sounds a lot like the CCA model? That's by design - it's been working well for a long time.

I think this is much easier to follow and regulate than what others are suggesting where a club needs to prove it has spent a bunch of money and gone through the administrative hurdle of attending several races just to prove that they are a "club". Most clubs under the proposed model would of course race several times throughout the season as this just makes sense. But forcing them to do so just because that's what your "club" does doesn't seem to be flexible or practical.

why bother with the wccc's?

sort of like saying why bother playing for the Stanley Cup when the World Cup and Olympics are available too. There are obviously fewer and (theoretically) less talent people playing for the Stanley Cup than an Olympic medal, but it's still fun to watch and very competitive. So leave it alone!

That was one of the longest posts that basically says... Wild Wild West. The only thing you are forcing is for teams to register at all.

Thank you for your input Combo / Select Crew member. All that typing and basically NO structure or requirements for establishing a crew as a crew.

My team could pretty much do any required number of events mentioned here and still save money if we wanted to. I guess yours couldn't. Wonder why.

******
"This sport doesn't build character, it reveals it."

"Effin' A, Cotton. Effin' A!"

I haven't posted in a while, other than yesterday to defend Adam in a different thread.

I thought that person at 4:45 p.m. made a lot of sense. The system does work and is practical and manageable to monitor. It also allows a club to race as often as they choose but does, despite tinkerbell's assertion, put some restrictions on club membership and race eligibility.

As for Tinkerbell implying that sprint racers don't have jobs my response is fuck off. I work. Virtually all the people I know in sprint other than those still in school or national team athletes have jobs too. Good ones. Making real money. The only sprint racers making those spandex and glove comments about "real dragonboaters" are marginal paddlers I'd consider to be more pretenders than the real thing (other than Derek when X drove him over the edge last summer). Are your comments representative of the mainstream in the DB world, Tinkerbell, or are you just a marginal pretender as well?

Bottom line is if the Tinkerbells of the DB world want it their way all they have to do is go the AGM, get vocal and get elected. I kinda hope they do. Let them have it their way and see what happens. What would make the most sense to me though is if we were to ask the IDBF to step in and gave some leadership and direction as to exactly what a club is, how often they should race, etc. They are providing leadership on the PP issue. Let them provide some leadership on these other issues you keep bringing up as well. It's their championship. Let them determine what is an eligible club crew. All we'd need to be doing then is what the rest of the world is doing with regards to a CCWC.

Would agree with Larry and 4:54 pm. It makes sense to me. At least 4:54pm proposed a structure wich is more than some have.
Would still be good if DBC would provide some leadership on the different issues mentionned in this forum. I'm quite sure that any form of structure they can think of will not be approved by many pple.
However, there comes a time when you haev to step up to the plate and take a swing at it. It's better to try to structure dragon - boat now, get the bad apples out, then later when bad apples have contaminated too many pple. Then again, maybe they don't read comments in this forum 'cuz there are too many pple bullsh?%%$ing and whining then doing any real good intelligent comments. Seems like most pple on this forum have anger management issues !

Oh and by the way Larry, I don'T know about pple from Ontario, however I'm quite sure that Thinkerbell's line of thought is in now way reflected from dragon = boaters in La Belle Province.

My comments in NO WAY WHATS SO EVER were intended to imply that anyone doesn't have a job or the means necessary to race.

When I said

"My team could pretty much do any required number of events mentioned here and still save money if we wanted to. I guess yours couldn't. Wonder why"

I means that MOST DB Crews already do more races than the 3-4 suggest so doing the 3-4 would actually be cheaper for us than what we spent on racing this year. It in NO WAY was meant to imply that members of combo or select didn’t have the means to race more if they wanted to. It was meant to imply that they do not want to. The complaining about it costing more being a problem simply identifies you as a member of a combo or select team. Again, not because you can’t afford it, but if doing 3-4 races a year is more then you currently spend then in many of our opinions you are not currently part of a club crew as we see it.

It is a direct continuance of my previous assertions that any requirement for “racing” would be unacceptable to folks from the same camp as 4:54 and Larry. Not big surprise, they do not race DB more then once or twice a year.

Congratulations you managed to piss me off. I have NEVER ever in any post gone to a personal level or started insulting anyone like your peers resort to every time they can’t work a discussion their way. All we have to do is state facts and wait for you guys to implode.

********
“Tinkerbell wins in a shocking upset."

"I feel shocked Cotton!"

I think in 5 years the whole argument will be moot. Now canoe racers can hope in a DB and despite their lack of practice because they are superior atheletes.
In 5 years +/- enough quality paddlers will specialize in DB that sprinters or marathoners who do not practice DB will get beat.

If DB teams get that good they will race off for the world championship spot and other teams will complain that they should not be allowed to compete for the WCCC.

The CCA model works for sprint events fine, but can the CCA events for strictly for War Canoe crews only? Dragon Boat is a whole different animal, at a different stage of evolvement than CCA. One cannot copy a model of a similar sport and expect it to work. Might as well bring outrigger or marathon canoe models in too and see how they compare. But none of them will work because each sport has a different set of requirements and team culture.
Dragon boat needs a new model and current one is not working because of the wide separations of opinion.

For those of us who have been around long enough, you'll remember why DBC went the route of supporting the IDBF statement that clubs did not necessarily have to have "clubhouses" or concrete edifices was the term I think they used.

One group in TO had "clubhouse", but didn't really look at IDBF
The other group had no facilities (except a chimenea by the water), people changed in the parking lot, etc, but saw the future and took the bull by the horns so to speak


The best system is not the current one BUT it is one that would fit the times (and DBC).

Establish CLUBS
Clubs have crews

CLUBS will only survive if they service their clients (crews)

Anyone with experience (or worth a damm) in coaching will tell you that is easy to get winners to train/race. The hard part is building crews/teams up to that point or taking a different approach for those who perhaps winning is a little out of reach


So in reality, let us use the example of 27.75 dragons or WWN or Greater Chabogamo Dragon Boat Club (see no real names used)

Clubs could only survive with members, if its membership decided that the policies of the club were not what they were looking for they would seek other alternatives.

Would race offs have many teams attending?

OF COURSE

Clubs would build up these race off all years to ALL THEIR MEMBERS. They wouldn't just enter one crew. It's a matter of pride to be able to say that you hade 5 crews from your club competiting at race offs as opposed to one.
Would CLUBS stack one crew and screw the other 90% of their members? If they did, they wouldn't have those 90% of members the next year, so they'd be shooting themselves in the foot.


Please look at this logically. Not just, oh well you must be a combo team. Personally I would just like to see CLUBS who ran races every weekend for FREE (not to be confused with festivals with are great as well)

If DB teams get that good they will race off for the world championship spot and other teams will complain that they should not be allowed to compete for the WCCC.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is very funny!

A poster above suggested looking at the marathon model. This is it . Anybody can race in any event.
Never raced before ? It does not matter , you can go to Shawinigan and race for 3 days in the biggest pro race in the world.
An Olympic medalist that never raced marathon ? Come to the Canadian marathon championships. Or the US nationals , which is a better race.( In marathon it is the pro races , not national championships that are the big deal , best competition ).

Derek and Larry and 4:whatevr make so much sense. The problem is the bunch odiots who want to make themselves look good by attending the WCCC instead of trying to build the sport.

the poster also stated those models wouldn't work for Dragon Boat. Go ahead and turn it to an nationals level races, when the championships shrink instead of grow then you wouldn't have anyone willing to organize such an event, because it wouldn't be profitable. Shoot the sprint people are already crying poverty about attending additional races, imagine when entrance fees and participation fees are so high it's only the dragon boaters that can go, by then it'll be too late. Look at what happen this past year in Berlin, it's already starting to happen.

The number of particpating countries haven't grown if anyone has followed the championships. Toronto CCWC will probably have the biggest turnout next year due to the high density of dragon boat crews in Canada, but when it'll revert back to South Africa or Australia, it'll be hard pressed to get more than 1-2 crews from each country.

I like the current system since I'm on a mixed team at the WWN Club and on a women's team at the Greater Chabogamo Dragon Boat Club. If I had to belong to one or the other I'd have to leave one of my teams. So leave it the way it is please and thank you.

I've been sort-of reading this thread for a little while. But, to be honest, huge rambling posts that go back and forth with no seeming end to the bickering, cause my brain to melt.

Derek, your last post makes sense, and to some extent already exists. I'm fine with Clubs creating crews and sending mulitple crews. But, I do think that there needs to be some sort of control on club members. Maybe all clubs would have to submit their membership lists at the beginning of the year, so that paddlers couldn't be 'flown in'. I'm sure DBC would be fine with receiving membership lists, as they would then be able to report membership numbers to Sport Canada and help their cause as well.

But, I also think that a club crew would have to race a certain number of races to qualify...in some form or another. A Club could not just race in one festival a year. It needs to be legitimized somehow.

Agree that clubs would have to register their members with the governing body by a set date. I think somewhere in some thread I had thought 120 days would be reasonable here.

But as far as enforcing racing at certain events in order to prove your a club.
Again, don't really agree on that one, UNLESS it actually meant something and crews that performed well were rewarded with a higher percentage of points.

On a higher level of competition, you do not see athletes racing every weekend as it inteferes with peaking and performance (never mind the stress of travel, organization, etc)

An again, this is totally different then festivals.
Clubs would be responsible for each holding a regatta, free of charge, for other member clubs.

Is we will continue to cycle back to the following items/issues/debates.

Why does IDBF have Worlds and Club Crews? If they are in fact meant for different levels of competition then putting some basic restrictions or conditions for demonstrating that your team is in fact a Club Crew is totally reasonable.

The only people who don't like the idea of having to race 3-4 times to show you are a club are the ones who do not already do this year over year. I have not heard anything so far that proves otherwise.

Combo crew & select crew types will ALWAYS agrue that is isn't needed and crews that train and race regularly will always argue for since for them it makes no difference (since they are already doing it). The trick would be to make sure there are enough events supporting this so that teams do not have to heavily custom tailor their events selection in order to meet the requirement.

I do not buy the $$$ argument since if you really wanted to you could do 3-4 events for like 2-3,000 since you wouldn't be practicing anyway. That's like $100-150 per person. I think the issue is really the time and commitment and INTEREST in actually doing the events which again proves the whole are you or aren't you a club crew point. The real club crews are already doing this and more, the ones that are not are not.

DBC, I would suggest that you engage your membership early in helping to convince events to support this system. We are their customers after all and adding the masses voices to your own may make a difference in some cases.

I understand the sentiment of the group saying: "How can you be a club if you don't race?". However, requiring that a club race 3-4 times a year to prove it's a club might make perfect sense in Toronto, but not everyone lives in the GTA.

DBC is a national organisation and as such should strive to create policies that are fair to the majority of the country. For example, one of the best (true) club crews out west is located in Pemberton BC (look it up on the map) which is in the middle of nowhere. For them to race 3-4 times a year would likely be too cost/time prohibitive. Or what if the Wascana canoe club in Regina or any of the canoe clubs in Halifax/Dartmouth wanted to form a crew. How would they get their 3-4 races a year in without having to spend an exhorbinant amount of money and time?

Shouldn't the "true" club crews that race more often have an advantage anyway? One of the previous posters seems to indicate that adding a minimum number of races requirement would show that the athletes have committed to dragon boat as their primary sport. What other sport can you think of where a team that doesn't even focus on the sport can qualify for a world championship event?

I think the model I presented in a previous post (I agee it still needs a lot of work - please provide constructive criticism) might be a way for actual clubs (as opposed to teams) to form that can develop dragon boat athletes in the same way that canoeing (and many other sports) does. Once you have true athlete development, and if dragonboating really isn't canoeing then the "combo/select" teams should become irrelavent as the dragon boat clubs should be able to beat any throw-together group.

There is confusion in equating clubs with teams.Some posters equate being a dedicated dragon boat team with being a club.
A team is a group of paddlers in the same dragon boat in an event. The team may be
-a bunch of co-workers together just for the day ,
- a bunch of paddlers who get together to race occasioally but train apart or
-a paddlers who only do dragon boating , training and racing regularly , perhaps with apaid coach and serious asperations.
All of these teams are real dragon boat teams.

A club is a group of people who have formed an organisation for a specific purpose or puposes.It must have recognizable form with an executive , bylaws and costitution etc. , preferably a recognised legal entity. Clubs can form teams to compete in sporting events such as dragon boat racing. Often clubs will be involved in several sports such as skiing and canoeing.
Many canoe clubs have dragon boat teams e.g. Sudbury , MCC etc.

The WCCC are for dragon boat teams from clubs.Read the IDBF definition of clubs , it is similary to the definition above . Most Canadian dragon boat TEAMS do not qualify as clubs. Fortunatly DBC has allowed non-club based teams to compete for the WCCC.Clubs don't object.
However , it is totally unreasonably for these non-club teams to attempt to exclude club based teams from the WCCC based on arbitrary participation criteria.

The IDBF definition is Euro centric. It now identifies "clubs or crews" in its definition of and entity that qualifies as a team able to be endorsed for CCWC.

Many or most , of the comments in this forum are Toronto centric. For those of us in the rest of Canada , Toronto is not much more relavent than Europe. We recognise that a sigificant portion of Canadian DBing occures in Toronto and area and that T.O. DBers , (along with Van DBers) put Canadian dragon boating on the map. But not all of us can , or want to have the same team format as Toronto teams.

Now we are getting some good logical debate and highlighting some challenges with the minimum race(s) requirement suggestion.

While not ideal, perhaps the race requirement should be regional. I still find it hard to believe that there are Western teams out there that live and train Dragon Boating, but only race once a year.

Here in Toronto at least there are like 20-30 festivals to choose from so if enough count it's a no brainer. Sudbury is 4 hours or more from most festivals they do so it is doable for any team that is really interested. The main point again here is that for most of the teams that we all consider clubs, this wouldn't require any changes for them. They are already doing it.

For those teams/crews where this would be a problem, well then I would question their primary focus to begin with.

Between team & club there is what DBC calls a Sport Racing Crew (or Unit) which is a team but more dedicated than the one-off weekend festival team but not so formal that they have a constitution etc... This works for Canada and probably would in the USA too.

What works is simple rules that are inclusive.
Register your team with DBC , race as much or as little as your team wants.Teams train any way they want to , in a DB or not.
Teams that train together and race regularly have a big advantage.They should not object to teams that do not.

Combo / select team member whomever you are.

Sign up, do your own thing, bring your all-star team to the race off without having to do any of those annoying and inconvinient qualifying events.

I really like the part where you try to make this sound goon by saying that teams that race more have an advantage. According to the actual stats from this year, if your team only did the minimum your in, if you raced a lot you didn't have a chance.

Nice try though.

Cotton: "How about those Combo / Select Crew dancers, folks?"
Pepper: "That is some good clean family fun there, eh, Cot?"
Cotton: "Right you are."

"Teams that train together and race regularly have a big advantage.They should not object to teams that do not."

Yeah, it's a huge disadvantage when you can call in Tamas, Atilla, Carrie, Scarola, etc. Really, I don't know why the even bother trying with odds stacked up against them like that.

Those poor all-star teams. It makes me sad.

LOL. Why don't you put some training time in so you can become an "all-star"?

Why train when I can just join an all-star team that parachutes in paddlers from across the country at the last minute.

LOL. Why don't you put some training time in so you can become an "all-star"?
G&G had all these "all-stars" in the boat in Pickering and didn't even make the A final. Please don't come back with "but the time" argument.

How about this..
Stop focusing on ONE team that won a spot OUT OF A POSSIBLE 5!!!
And understand that with having to fill empty lanes, (Not because of poor attendance, but due to any number not divisible by 6) there could be an additional 5 entries given to Canada.
So it really only affects the (potential)11th crew

And this only is ONE division out of 9

SO we're talking about one crew about a possible (extreme) 90 Canadian crews.

The only crew it might not include is Mayfair. All the other were pretty much put together, did two races (scotia did 3, but one without any of their Beach folks and lost to a team that wasn't even close to making it) and qualified.

G&G is just to most obvious extreme example.

Blah Blah Blah!!! G&G did this and they did that. The one thing they did was win an entry within the rules that were set out. They didn't make the rules. They read the rules.

Don't blame them.

Just because a team would rather spend there time training for the race that really matters than do a bunch of festivals every weekend doesn't make them any less of a crew.

Just because a crew doesn't race a lot, doesn't mean that they aren't training together all the time

Your correct that they didn't do anything wrong and I can't remember anyone saying they broke any rules. The point is that the vast majority of Dragon Boaters do not want the rules to allow for combo/select teams to be formed for the express purpose of winning entries and shutting out or preventing the clubs we all race against from having a chance.

I like the "would rather train for something important rather than racing comment". You don't actually believe that crap you just said there do you? I bet you G&G had less than a handful of practices. I am sure that Pickering had a LOT more practices than they did races, but that is because their paddlers were actually at all those other races with the real clubs.

In any event, this is a very cyclical argument. People from combo/select teams who only get together to challenge for race off spots are ALWAYS spewing the warm and fuzzy "Why complicate things? Let teams choose how they want to run?"

It's a tempting argument all said in a nice soft voice with the intention of lulling your brain to sleep, but it doesn't address the whole Club Crew system thing.

My crew didn't race so we can train.
One racing weekend = maybe 10 minutes of paddling.
One practice = 50+ minutes of paddling. Throw in a small boat practice on the other day of the weekend and that's more than two hours of paddling in a weekend in which our competition hardly paddled. Add up the taper week and which one do you think will help an experienced crew more come real race day (and in 2005 there was only real race day, the race-off day).
We only raced where we had to, and we didn't field the full crew either, on purpose.
It was fun going into the race-off knowing that nobody thinks we can win.

I'm a little confused.So when did you train?On the weekend and only once?I can see why noboby would think you could win.

" People from select/combo teams are always spewing" etc. ?
A few pissed off people from teams that didn't qualify are always spewing about most dragon boaters or real dragon boaters think.
Cut the crap , you don't speak for "most" dragon boaters ,or represent "real" dragon boaters , just yourself and maybe a few friends.

Definitely agree with Anon - October 25 2005, 2:30 PM.

Racing 12 regattas per season doesn't make a team more of a club crew than a team that only races 3 regattas. In fact, the only thing that can be concluded by such a statement is that the crew that races 12 regattas per season probably won't win anything, because they're spending their time racing and sitting out in the sun rather than training! Think about it!

I am such an idiot. And here I thought that racing experience was actually an integral part of training.

Stupid me.

And yes, people on combo / select teams will aways argue in favor of rules that favor them and everyone else who is not will argue for rules that a more restrictive and give them a chance. This has been made pretty clear. There is not changing anyones mind on this.

I guess the right of wrong of it will be decided by our fearless leaders at DBC.

"I am such an idiot. And here I thought that racing experience was actually an integral part of training.

Stupid me. "

It is, if you're new to the sport (first three or so years). After that it's all pretty much the same.

Man, and we spent all that wasted time doing race simulations and warm up events for the big ones.

Looks like we just shaved off half our budget. Thanks dude.

Oh wait... WE LIKE RACING... That's it. I knew there was some reason we did it.

This just gets boring. I'll say it again. The rules currently allow the G&G scenario to happen. Personally I like the fact that teams can race as much as suits them best. Teams can decide how many races are going to be part of their optimal preparation. Apparently, according to many of you, I also like it because I am an "all star" and like self-serving rules that suit me and my friends. You people also want rules that demand that a certain number of races be entered in a given year by a crew in order for them to be considered a 'club crew'. Some of you even want the team to be together for YEARS before that. At some point that's ridiculous and it becomes impossible for you to deny that you are asking for rules that seem equally self serving.

Why don't we all stop arguing and ask DBC to ask the IDBF to give us some guidelines on it? Apparently the IDBF are going to do that with the PP rule. Let them tell us how many races a crew must race in a season to be a club crew as well. Then all we have to do is conform to a world standard. It would be so easy. It would also mean an even playing field at the CCWC.

If that were to happen I suspect that in the end all that would happen is the anti G&G/all star/whatever you call them faction will still complain, because, honestly, I think they are happiest when they are complaining.

It is always the people who try hard, never been rewarded for their efforts, that are biggest complainers. Crews sticking together for years, ya right, are you stupid, crews racing every weekend together, must have a lot of money because it is hard to go away for 3 weekends and race. There is a lot of dreaming on this forum. These dreams come from people who do not understand sport and want to be rewarded for the good old try hard effort. Well pat yourself on the back, and wake up. the old saying "winning isn't everything" well it is. So live with it. Can't beat them join them. Maybe it's time to find a new coach, maybe a personal trainer, maybe learn how to paddle properly and get out of a dragonboat where you can hide among 10 others on your side, and for some of you maby just change your paddling gloves and spandex. Re-evaluate yourself and your athelticsm before you try and make a difference in the system. All of you so worried about the system, maybe you should put that focus and extra energy into paddling.

"All of you so worried about the system, maybe you should put that focus and extra energy into paddling. "

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

you're an assbag.

just change your paddling gloves and spandex.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dang,and here I was thinking that I really neede to get a cool pair of gloves to look Professional and all!

NOT.

Sorry but the gloves are a dead giveaway of WUSSDOME!

I would like to buy a vowel for $100.

Whats wrong with gloves? Better way to prevent slipping than sex wax.

hold the paddle propery and it won't slip

I wear a $2 dish glove in the spring and fall when the water is/gets cold to keep my bottom hand warm.It works fine.I am happy they have pink!I share the other one with my seat partner.I am very friendly

people with dish gloves are funny.