Hey guys,
I was just wondering about what kinds of strokes works best for fresh water courses and salt water. Is it better to have a shorter stroke(more in front less in back) or a full stroke (full in front and back)? And I was wondering how many strokes per minute does your team do, or any "good" team does?

Please respond!
Thanks

Salt water has greater bouyancy, so a long stroke is more effective than a short stroke. You can take advantage of the bouyancy to let the boat glide out on a long, powerful stroke. On fresh water, a short, frontal-strength stoke is more effective to break free from the resistance of the water.

Of course, I'm just inventing this nonsense but perhaps it does bear thinking about.

Gorging paddler coming to Montreal? Or a Jetstart paddler going to San Fran?

There was an interesting saltwater versus freshwater thread a while back. Seemed like greater buoyancy in saltwater was about all anyone agreed on.

In theory slatwater is faster water. But in a practical sense, when are all other things ever equal? I have no idea how much impact water buoyancy has, but it seems plausible that other variables could easily outweight the diference between the two.

For example at Grorge Paddling in Victoria they train in much heavier boats than the ones we use in the East. It's possible Gorging Dragons might even experience more glide due to the boat change. And while Jetstart will see familiar boats in San Fran, in an open ocean harbour things like choppy water, current or wind might mean they experience less glide than usual.

Jeez... I'm a mess without my spellchecker.

i haven't seen teams out west in a little while, but 5 years ago or so, I would have said that the majority of west coasters paddled with a short stroke (they all look like canoists to me or how the monks paddled, and how hanalei paddles now(?)), not what I used to call the "toronto-centric dragon boat" stroke. All them vancouverites paddle in salt water.

I don't even think it really matters. Just stick to what you trained on. I've seen west coasters paddle here as a team, and I don't recall them looking like Toronto teams. I imagine there was a slight calibration in stroke to get used to being deeper in the water. I think that is the biggest difference - in salt water you're more likely to be higher out of the water. Bring a longer paddle.

To further elaborate on stroke mechanics between a 'sprint' type stroke verses a 'marathon' type stroke there are a number of teams that use either one, both here in Ontario and the west coast. Having being coached by both schools although the marathon stroke was my first real introduction to paddling, there are discernable differences for example, sprint or high kneel uses the set up position in the shape of the ‘A’ frame whereas marathon or OR for that matter have a lower top arm. The catch in DB from a ‘sprint’ approach uses a considerable more amount of driving force down hard whereas the marathon style tends to rely on sliding the catch into place with as little downward force as possible to maintain a smooth glide.

From what I have seen over the past few years a hybrid of both forms have been applied to DB with considerable success. In terms of reach and length of stroke marathon in marathon boat is a shorter faster stroke and is not necessarily the optimum technique for a large boat such as a dragon boat BUT having said that the marathon stroke has been adapted for a dragon boat using the same principles. Furthermore a ‘sprint’ style has also been adapted for dragon boat. The bottom line is, both sprint and marathon techniques are both very effective.

IMO - As for applying both these styles to salt water verses fresh water I cannot say for certain which is more effective than the other…but having said that False Ck has shown how a marathon based stroke has put them at the top of the game.

If the Larry Cain’s or Stan Machachek’s of world can support or argue anything I have posted I would truly welcome their input!

"but having said that False Ck has shown how a marathon based stroke has put them at the top of the game."

except FC doesn't win...

you obviously missed the Club Crews. as a club, they are very strong, and sat on top of the podium in pretty much every mixed/open race. sure, false creek didn't win the NTTs, but they did that race as a club crew, and opted out of flying in paddlers (their own "loss" perhaps, but i can understand several arguments i've heard for that decision).

Hey anon September 20 2006, 9:37 PM I guess you haven't around that long. Before any Ontario team was winning national's or the world's these guys and particularily the girls were. They were in dragon boats back in '86 when you were probabaly still attached to your soother. So before you start spewing off crap you better get your facts right.


1988: Vancouver - Gold, Gold (mixed); Hong Kong - Silver
1989: Vancouver - Gold; Singapore - Gold; Hong Kong - Gold
1990: Vancouver - Gold; Singapore - Gold; Hong Kong - Gold (record setting)
1991: Vancouver - Gold; Toronto - Gold; San Francisco - Gold
1992: Vancouver - Gold; Singapore - Gold; Hong Kong - Gold
1993: Vancouver - Gold; Macau - Silver (Open); Hong Kong - Gold
1994: Vancouver - Gold; Macau - Bronze (Open); Hong Kong - Bronze
1995: Vancouver - Gold; China - Silver; Hong Kong - Gold (record setting)
1996: Vancouver - Gold
1997: Vancouver - Gold; Toronto - Gold
1998: Vancouver - Gold
1999: Vancouver - Gold; Nottingham - Bronze

To anon at September 21 2006, 8:51 AM, wake up and smell 2006.

Okay, that's not fair, but I couldn't help it. But times certainly have changed.

I think it's part of the ebb and flow of sport. Originally FCRCC dominated the Canadian national team program, but then Toronto (and area) turned it around and took over from Philly going forward. Now if the Toronto group doesn't stay on top of their game, FCRCC seems once again poised and ready to take over. And don't count out Montreal, their women's program is looking very strong.

Competition between the groups will only help our national team stay strong.

Your all good paddlers from diff location

2 of many differences between marathon and sprint based strokes.
1) Top arm ; bent vs. straight , or nearly so.
2) Top shoulder ; forward vs. back .
I think it is interesting that some of the best sprint racers seem to have more of an marathon top arm / top shoulder position when in a DB. It is probably because DB and marathon both use short paddles while sprint paddles are at least a foot longer.

with the shorter paddle a slightly bent top arm allows a bigger angle at the catch, which is not necessary in sprint as the paddles are long

A bent top arm allows greater downward force generation than a straight one. Simple lever mechanics - just try a cable pressdown at a gym with a straight vs. bent arm (single arm) and you will figure this out very quickly.
One of the top Outrigger coaches in Hawaii currently (where the OC stroke is a bent top arm with a long stroke length and rotation) told me he coaches and emphasizes that the generation of effort on a blade is about 30% top arm and 70% bottom arm effort (pulling arm) and the top arm is bent and starts the catch from the center of the boat (top hand is literally between the paddlers eyes). I think what we need to differentiate here is that we are talking about paddle mechanics in a sitting position vs. a high-kneel position where a much longer blade is used.

The bottom line is what the paddler is doing with the blade in contact with the water through the whole stroke. Good athletes regardless of stroke type will make the boat go fast comparing a boat of 20 people with different strokes without comparing overall power to weight per boat is a pretty personal-biased exercise for stroke style.

Toronto Area (East is probably more indicative) dominated prior to Philly. Who in their right mind can forget the win in 1996? So I believe you are almost a 1/2 dozen years off.

does anyone have that video of the win in 1996?