I just wanted people's opinion on how a person's weight plays a role in the boat or seat selection. If two people post the same time in a time trial. Who is faster. The lighter or heavier person?

You are about to get flamed .....

"If two people post the same time in a time trial. Who is faster."

hmmm, let me think about that.....

Answer: NEITHER!

You said yourself, they posted the same time. So neither is faster, but most teams will agree that if two people achieve the same score, the tie goes to the lighter paddler.


See? No flames and only a little sarcasm.

Hi,

When working out how to put together a crew there are a couple of things to consider:

1. The racing course, if it's shallow then running a light crew i.e. 16 is better than 18 or 20
2. Weight to power ratio is key, better to put in someone light but strong vs someone heavy and equally strong as the obejctive is to get the boat planing over the water as opposed to sitting heavy in the water...

My 2p worth...

If heavy paddler gets the same time trial results as light paddler, he or she has already overcome the burden of sitting lower in the water. Their power was sufficient to overcome the additional drag. What has not been well argued or demonstrated in a number of similar debates is why this result in a small boat would not translate to dragon boat.

The shallow water argument is interesting. Maybe someone should test this out in Stratford some time.

I have always been impressed by the Chinese Senior Mens Crew (Shun de), the observation that is most difficult to apply is the average weight of the crew members doesn't look like it exceeds 160lbs, this must be contributing to their speed, I'm just not sure in which part of the race and how much of an advantage that is?

Jim Farintosh - any thoughts on this?

Don't forget that DB is a team sport. If you go with the heavy guy, you'll be asking the rest of the team to pull a boat sitting lower in the water (however slightly) than it would if you went with the lighter guy.

Remember the sage (paraphrased) words of Colin Chapman (founder of Lotus Automobiles): "If you want to go faster, add lightness."

Try it yourself. If you have access to an OC-1, bring along 2 garbage bags and fill it with water, say approx 10lbs of water each for a total of 20lbs xtra to your weight. Place then near the cockpit. GPS or speedo your speed over a 250m. Do the same now with out the water bags. Tell me which would you rather have? The boat more submerged in the water or less submerged.

Trouble with that test is that you're also pulling 20lbs more than your own weight. Of course you're boat is going to go slower, regardless of how high or low in the water.

It's not about the weight.
It's about fat percentage.

Heavy guy and light guys score the same on an OC-1 test, heavy guy has better potential because he has weight to lose. Harder for light guy to lose more weight, he's already light.

I tink dat da wait dont madder. I tried da test in ma boat an i went de same sped wedder i had more wait or not. I used a cas of beer as my xtra wait an one of dem gps tings. I went da same sped wit or witout da cas of beer. I figue dat if i us my 20 horsepowr motr rathr den my 10 i will go faster thou

You are all morons.

If they scored the same on a time trial then the heavier dude is compensating for this extra weight. The only question is, how would a boat that is lower in the water (because of the fat dude) affect the other 19 paddler¡Çs performance.

Down with fat people. Rise up my svelte friends. RISE UP!!!

My break is over so I have to get back to flipping burgers...

can i have my with xtra cheese, chili and an xtra paddy.

mucho gracious

Whale

Oil

Beef

Hooked

I don't know if this translats to DB , but in marathon racing light teams have a clear advantage in shallow water , heavey teams have big advantage in a head wind , especially if there are waves.

Hahaha...You really kill me, Matt!

The strength of the fat guy can compensate for his weight. Therefore, it should not matter, right? Could bigger size create more wind resistant?

So the skinny dude and the bigger dude have the same time in an OC1 time trial. I've seen lots of light guys go faster than a heavier guy in a C1 but not be as effective in a DB because they aren't as strong. DB is still a power event (even though we're out of the teaks and into BuKs etc.). If the heavy guy is a lot stronger but not excessively heavier I'll take him over the light guy, even though their time control results were the same. Assuming of course we are racing on an course of regulation depth.

Using OC1 to test for DB isn't always an accurate indicator as it involves a level of skill that is higher than a bigger, more fixed platform like a DB.

I can't resist wading into this one because I don't think anyone has it quite right yet. Also the topic of possibly adjusting OC1 scores for weight is an interesting one as people seem to brush this off as whoever is faster in a time trial is better for your boat.

So person A that weighs 150 and person B that weighs 200 get the same time on an OC1 trial. One thing we can say for certain is that person B is applying more power in order to compensate for the additional drag created by their additional 50lbs in the OC1.

Now, the important question is: does an additional 50lbs in a dragonboat create more or less drag than 50lbs in an OC1. My guess would be than generally (see exceptions later on) an additional 50lbs creates less drag in a DB and in fact the heavier person is a better choice for the team.

Here are the factors that matter:
1. First and foremost, the OC1 weighs a lot less than a DB and the additional weight is going to put it much lower in the water creating much stronger drag(arguement for person B)
2. Because of the size and shape of a dragonboat, an additional inch lower in the water is going to lead to much more drag than an OC1 which is arrowdynamic and short (arguement for person A).
3. I would guess, that factor 1 is more important than 2 in most cases. Why? The weight to boat ratio of an additional 50lbs is just too great in an OC1 when compared to a DB.

To find out, teams have to play around. Add a 50lb block to your time trial and then 50lb into your DB. See what influences your times more.

Other relevant factors:
1. As the total team weight in a Dragonboat increases, so too does factor 2 above. Thus for a heavy heavy crew the choice of person A might be better. At some point there is a cross over.
2. Into headwind weight is good, wind a back light is good.
3. Shallow water heavy is bad (increases factor 2) and deep water heavy is ok.
4. Salt water = less benefit to being light.
5. Less than 500m race weight is bad. This is because the start is more relevant to the race outcome and more weight = slower start.

Cheers,

Power D

I would argue that instead of taking the absolute weight difference between the two paddlers, that the entire sum of the paddler + boat is important.

For example, if the OC-1 weighs in around 40lbs, and paddler A is 150lbs and paddler B is 200lbs, then paddler A is pulling 190lbs and paddler B 240lbs. If you were to assume the lightest person taking the test would be 100lbs, then 140lbs is the starting point, and 240/140=1.7 and 190/140=1.35.... I'm not saying that this should be the multiplier, but rather an example that follows a simple formula I've seen for base-lining strength based on a one-time-rep for bench, deadlift and squat.

So what the hell does that mean?

240 = 1.7 x 140 ?

Okay, sure (approx). But what the heck does THAT have to do with anything?

Fast is fast is fast. That is ALL that matters, as long as situations are not so extreme that lighter somehow becomes more important than fast. And that is a rare, rare circumstance (eg. low riding teak boats in Victoria Harbour or lane 4 in Stratford).

I think 2:59 is confusing "fitness" with who will make a boat go faster. When comparing the two people, in either OC1 or DB the heavier person has to at least pull their own weight to make the two people comparable as that extra 50lbs is going to be there regardless of where they paddle. I think the question is where (DB vs. OC1) does the 50lbs create the most drag.

Anyways, I'm not an expert on boat physics but this seems to me like the logical argument.

What are people's experience, do the lighter people tend to be able to move an OC1 easier than the big guys and gals? From those I've talked to I've heard yes.

I agree with Power Demon except for point 5. If the heavier person generates more power I want him in the boat on the start. He'll be more useful in lifting the heavy pig of a boat out of the water and getting it to top speed. The idea that he is heavier and therefore will make the boat slower is wrong. We've tried it with light, young athletes who are fast in small boats. The conclusion we drew was that dragon boat is a "power" event and slightly heavier guys with a bit more "man" strength were more useful, even if they were a little slower in a small boat.

Power Demon correctly points out that huge consideration needs to be given to the overall size of the crew. If the crew's average weight is pretty heavy then choose the light paddler with the great time control. If the average weight is such that you can afford to take the heavier guy take him and his extra horsepower.

In the real world, if you have to make the choice between the two you'd probably only be doing so for the last spot on the team otherwise you'd take them both. Since the chosen person is in all liklihood going to spare your important races anyhow, just pick whoever will be the most fun at the after-party

I used to make fun of the piggy-wiggified paddlers. Not anymore, I'm serious. In fact, I think it's best to have a pear-shaped body as it anchors your ass better in a humpty-dumpty-like way. As you reach out, having your gut squish against your chubby legs probably helps you get a spring-like effect as you transition from catch to pull.

I agree that 6:47 has a good point. Power is key off the start and often it is the bigger guys that can deliver this (assuming we are talking about good weight).

However, if you can stack your boat with big power and low-middle weight, you'll find you get off the line much quicker. If you've ever seen two equal crews race, but one with 16 paddlers and the other with 20, you'd notice the 16 paddler crew shoot off the line fast but then get eatten up once the other crew gets up to speed.

Light and powerful makes a good 200m and I guess if it requires big guys to get the power than 6:47 is right. Some extra pound for additional power might be a fair trade-off.

There is something to be said about pure power. Observations from the "fun" festival in Hamilton yesterday suggests that pure power can over come a lot, even if the paddler is much heavier. In Hamilton, the Burlington firefighters (guys and gals) where the guys all average around 250lbs and never paddled DB or anything else before, consistently beat out a good mix crew of light but strong and experienced paddlers (RipMoShockSoon) by a full second in 250m races. None of the firefighters used any DB techniques (bent at the waist or reached or rotated), it was all arms, but the water they displaced at the start is awesome to watch. Which to me reinforces the arguement that DB is a "power" event, but this is just one example...

Obviously not many of the posters races OC1. In OC1 racing size is an advatage. Moderatly big guys have an advantage , at least up to 190 or 200lb. It is also true that in team boats , OC6 , C2 , even marathon C2 , size is less important.In DB the probably best team ever is Shun De , a bunch of small guys. We can infer that the "large size does not matter in a team boat " relationship is holds true for DB.
Therefor , in a paddle test if a smaller guy does as well as a big guy , the small guy is a better paddler , and would be a better choice in DB.

I'm sorry but I find it hard to believe that a fire department had an average weight of 250 lbs. In fact I'd be really surprised if even 2 of those guys topped 250 lbs

"Therefor , in a paddle test if a smaller guy does as well as a big guy , the small guy is a better paddler , and would be a better choice in DB. "
Says a small guy. If a guy says that penis size doesn't matter, we can infer that he has a small one.

Just to add, having bigger muscles doesn't always mean being stronger than a skinny pencil-necked geek. Anyone that's taken a human physiology course should know that it's more important for the nervous system to get trained to increase strength. Muscle development is just a usual by-product. Of course, there are other benefits to not looking like a skinny pencil-necked geek.

"Obviously not many of the posters races OC1. In OC1 racing size is an advatage. Moderatly big guys have an advantage , at least up to 190 or 200lb. It is also true that in team boats , OC6 , C2 , even marathon C2 , size is less important."

what is your basis for this???

i agree about being a pencil-necked geek, cause i'm one of them. my skinny legs can leg press upwards of 500lbs with no leg-specific training before hand (I hate going to the gym, and so i don't whenever possible). i also have the benefit of insanely fast metabolism and low body fat to help keep up my svelt appearance.

I like a lively, informative, interesting discussion as much as the next paddler. But like so many strings, this is one is getting boring and tedious. Short or tall, skinny or fat, whatever the scale says: losers go home, winners get to nail the prom queen.

Type less, get out and paddle more ......

...where to begin.

"Obviously not many of the posters races OC1. In OC1 racing size is an advatage. Moderatly big guys have an advantage , at least up to 190 or 200lb".

Ok, I'm just guessing here but I would have to wager that if 190lb or 200lb guys do better, it is because they are stronger and those additional pounds are muscle. However, the example we are talking about both paddlers have the same time in their time trial. I really don't think you can argue that if the 200lb guy was all fat and no muscle that they would have an implicit advantage over someone lighter.

"It is also true that in team boats , OC6 , C2 , even marathon C2 , size is less important.In DB the probably best team ever is Shun De , a bunch of small guys. We can infer that the "large size does not matter in a team boat " relationship is holds true for DB."

There is some truth to this. But the relevent factor is power to boat weight ratio. The heavier the boat, the more power/strength becomes important. Light boat, lots of people(water is moving fast), you don't need as much strength as you do fitness - although both are positives. That being said, Dragon boats are pretty damn heavy. The fact that Shun De does well may not be becuase they are small, but that they paddle well.

"Therefore , in a paddle test if a smaller guy does as well as a big guy , the small guy is a better paddler , and would be a better choice in DB."

The small guy may be a better paddler, however he will also make your boat go slower so I would opt for the heavy guy for the reasons above.

Good as Shun De are, I have a hard time subscribing to the theory that they are the "best team ever". I can elaborate on that if you wish. To base a "light is right" conclusion on their performance alone is just plain stupid.

to anon at 5:09pm... let me try to make myself clearer.

If a 150lb person can paddle a 40lb boat for 200m in the same time a 200lb person can paddle the same 40lb boat, then I would say the ligher paddler is the better paddler as they are pulling their own weight, and the 40lb boat, which is about 27% of his weight. For the 200lb guy, the boat is only 20% of his weight.

It's not like a chin up, or bench pressing your own weight... there needs to be some calculation to normalize the time, or else do something like horse racing and put sandbags in the boat for the heavy guy.

^^^ I think you're missing an important factor that Power Demon was trying to point out - DRAG.
Because you're not racing in air, but in WATER, that means paddler weight to boat weight ratio is a factor. A 200lb paddler will make a 40lb boat sit in the water a lot lower than a 150lb paddler therefore much more drag than your 27% to 20% ratio (applicable only if you're racing on land or in air). And since he/she (200lb paddler) had to have been stronger to achieve the same time as the 150lb paddler in the 40lb boat, therefore the arguement that the same 200lb paddler would be a better choice in a DB because the paddler weight to DB weight ratio is a lot lower and less drag.

I think you may have it backwards about weight and small boat testing. The hulls of sprint canoes and rowing shells carry weight very differently than dragon boats.

I've seen it written on the forum (as if it were irrefutable proof of bigger equals better) that heavyweight rowing crews always beat the mid-to-light-weight crews. However that has little meaning when you consider that rowing shells are such narrow, low-displacement craft. Dragon boats are low-riding, high-displacement pigs. They don’t plane at all and must plough their weight in water. OC1s likely don’t perform as well as sprint canoes or rowing shells but, relative to dragon boats, their hulls are more forgiving of proportional increases in weight.

I’m not sure any of this speaks to the specific scenario above. I’m sure there could be instances where the weight/power/crew weight ratios would favor a “Paddler B” type. However a full boat of 20 Paddler As would destroy a full boat of 20 Paddler Bs... similar power but one crew with 1000 lbs of extra displacement! No contest.

"However a full boat of 20 Paddler As would destroy a full boat of 20 Paddler Bs... similar power but one crew with 1000 lbs of extra displacement! No contest."

Prove it.

No one, NO ONE, has yet to prove that dragon boats behave either the exactly same or substantially different than small boats when it comes to weight vs power vs displacement/friction when we hold time trial speed constant. That is, who says that two guys who are able to move a small boat the same speed couldn't move a dragon boat the same speed?

the way to solve this is to forget all about small boat time trials, and race dragonboats. one person steering, one person to balance the paddler, and of course, the paddler.

I think that this would be a great way to injure yourself. At least in an OC1 you can hit about 10-12 km/hr at full throttle. In an empty dragonboat you are at best 3km/hr and about 6" higher above the water than in a full dragonboat. I agree that the OC1 is not perfect way of testing but to test in an empty dragonboat is asking for injury.

At least one team does this for their time trials.

i don't think its any worse (probably better) than seat pulls. at least if its only you in there, you're not paddling with an extra couple thousand pounds of dead weight.

Off the top of my head I can think of a few reasons why doing a one person Dragon Boat time trial doesn't make a lot of sense:

1. What differentiates a good paddler from someone who hasn't paddled before is the ability to find and maintain pressure on the blade in water that is in a sense moving (you are moving relative to it). In a time trial in a boat that is barely moving, nearly anyone, beginner or not, can find pressure. You really need to test in a boat that is moving roughly as fast as a DB. This test will very much undervalue those who are good paddlers and have good technique.

2. Similar to lifting big weights, those that do well will likely be big, and have a lot of raw strength. However, an important aspect of paddling is muscular endurance which will not be tested to the same extent (those who do well on say a lactic bench test). This one person DB test highly favors big powerful people and undervalues those with good fitness and muscular endurance.

3. As stated before, this is also a fantastic way to injure half your crew, especially when they know they have to give it their all to impress.

4. As stated before, boat is not sitting at the same height as when you actually paddle.

An OC1 test is clearly an improvement on this type of test.

I agree with PD that one paddler getting a dragon boat going from a stop is not a good test of how they paddle in a moving, full boat. One possible measure of technique would be to get the full boat going at, say 10 km/hr (by GPS), then having each paddler go alone for 20-30 strokes and see how much the boat drops in that time.

I have, however, wondered if boat speed is affected differently by where you paddle in the boat. For example, a powerful person paddles in rockets, engine or stroke. Ignoring that he/she may not be comfortable in some seats, will the effect on boat speed be the same from all three spots? Anyone?

OC-1 is a great learning tool, no question. It's a decent testing tool - probably better than any alternatives. Tell me that push-up ability is important in paddling. Riiiight. (Sorry Mofos.) Unless you're on a super-competitive team, I'm not personally a big fan of fit-testing. It's more important to have someone with a really good attitude, who's interested in being fit and improving. And, yes, must be fun to party with.

Your all morons.

Why not have fat guy and the skinny guy switch in and out of the boat keeping track of the various 500 meter times. Over a period of time maybe weeks which ever combination was faster you go with. In other words you get rid of the calorie guzzling pig.

Rise up my slim friends, RISE UP!

Matt, what you're describing is called "seat racing", they use it in rowing.

Of course, the biggest boat in rowing is an 8, so it's a little difficult to do this in dragon boat, especially since bodies in the boat change so frequently between practices.

BTW - I know a couple of overweight guys who have paddled on the national team who can still kick your little skinny-ass butt. Are they bad paddlers just because they're overweight?


OC-1 time trials, only way to go. Let the numbers do the talking. Fast is fast, but tie goes to the lighter guy. (and by tie I mean a REAL tie, no time adjusting for weight).

Are you saying there are fat guys on the national team?

Are you calling me fat? I prefer the title "body mass challenged" ..... BMC Paddlers will not be stopped. We will rise up,I say, RISE UP!

I said overweight. Not every guy who has ever paddled on the national team has six-pack abs, but all of them can paddle.

Actually Dave, the boat will tend to sink deeper rather than rise up.

...I know, I know; bad play on words!

I have read all of the posts here and only one makes any sense so I am reposting it for the DB genius that was focussed enough to catch the true meaning of this thread.

"I tink dat da wait dont madder. I tried da test in ma boat an i went de same sped wedder i had more wait or not. I used a cas of beer as my xtra wait an one of dem gps tings. I went da same sped wit or witout da cas of beer. I figue dat if i us my 20 horsepowr motr rathr den my 10 i will go faster thou"

That is bang on, too much thinking not enough training

"That is bang on, too much thinking not enough training"

Too much typing, not enough training...dumbass.