GAISF VOTE: IDBF YES!

The IDBF delegation called directly from the GAISF AGA meeting in Beijing this morning (5:12 a.m., European Central Time, 27 April) with excellent news: the AGA voted Yes to the IDBF’s application for GAISF membership!

For more information see: www.edbf.org (the IDBF website will be updated later today).

Congratulations!

Yay

both http://www.edbf.org and http://www.idbf.org have been updated. More news will appear on both sides as soon as we receive it from Beijing.

I'll bet the ICF, and CKC here in canada are thrilled!

Who the hell is CKC in Canada.
At least get your reference correct....CCA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canoe_Kayak_Canada

The name CCA got replaced by CKC grandpa.

haha Anon 4:35 got pwned.

CCA or CKC - all the same.

It's gone to the dogs!

The IDBF has now joined the elite group of sports in the GAISF. Other sports with GAISF membership include bandy, pelota, billiards, casting, draughts, Go, korfball(?), minigolf, power boating, sambo, and sports fishing. Clearly the IDBF is well on the way to Olympic status.

http://www.agfisonline.com

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korfball

According to your link, Korfball was a demonstration sport during the 1920 and 1928 olympic games. So that would be an example where GAISF membership does correlate to the olympics.

Only on the forum can you find a link to korfball.

But to be fair other member sports are basketball, athletics (track and field), flatwater canoeing, rowing, aquatics (swimming), etc, etc.

I don't think most DBers (or the CKC for that matter) care if DB is ever in the Olympics. It's all about what parent sports organization gets the revenues from the masses. DBC is a member of the IDBF which is now recognized by the same International Body which recognizes the ICF.

So I think it is a victory for DBC and IDBF. The CKC wants member fees, period.

Korfball is a sport practiced widely in Europe. It has some similarities to basketball, no dribbling and is played as a mixed (m/f) sport so is very inclusive. For the Canadians on the forum, bandy is the parent of ice hockey, played on an ice rink the size of a football/soccer pitch with a ball instead of a puck. Again, it's a sport played in many European nations.

Yes, GAISF membership is important even if you've never heard of some of the sports which are members. In many countries, if your sport is a GAISF member, you can then join your national sports federation and be eligible for funding, coaching assistance, insurance deals, assistance with youth sport development and other types of support that helps athletes.

Did anyone hear what happened at CKC's national dragon boat conference?

What does the Canadian Kennel Club have to do with Dragon Boats?

Playing hockey in a soccer size field/rink with a ball.

This sounds cool.

I heard CKC was going to take over DBC?

I suspect DBC will become another affiliate of CKC the same as Sprint , Whitewater and Marathon.

A partner paddlesport, not affiliate. Outrigger is welcome too. The other sports you mentioned fall under ICF disciplines so they are OK under CKC.

Marathon as it is represented on CKC does not fall under ICF. It is marathon racing using pro-boat C2s and USCA C1s , not ICF boats.

Maybe marathon would rather join IDBF now that they are an internationally recognized paddlesport and DBC in Canada?

Marathon doesn't get a penny from CKC... why not.

marathon is not an ICF disipline.

Marathon is a paddling discipline within the ICF. Internationally, marathon paddling is done in the same boats that flatwater sprinters race in, except that because marathon has no minimum boat weight restriction, the boats are lighter. The sit down marathon racing often seen in Canada is a North American phenomenon.

The CKC Board of Directors has 2 marathon representatives. CKC is responsible for nominating the Canadian marathon team for participation at the world championships.

Because marathon is not an Olympic sport, CKC does not receive Sport Canada funding for athlete support or coaches.

Interesting to read the ICF response to the GAISF ruling. They make it pretty clear that while the GAISF now recognizes the IDBF, they also still recognize the ICF. Two governing bodies for one sport. Sounds kind of silly, but there it is.

Read for yourself.

http://www.canoeicf.com/default.asp?Page=2016

and

http://www.canoeicf.com/default.asp?Page=2023


And now back to your marathon canoe debate...

ICF are embarassing themsleves. Grow up! Wonder if CKC will embarass themsleves in a similar way.

The IDBF should just let the ICF run the sport. To say that dragon boating is a totally different discipline than canoeing is ridiculous. Dragon boaters use a stroke that is more similar to canoeing than to kayaking -- yet kayaking is part of the ICF. If kayaking is part of the ICF, dragon boating clearly should be, too.

If KFC and WKRP joined the CKC then they would be regulated by FCC-IC. This reminds me of the time in elementry school when I had to spell I-C-U-P.

"This reminds me of the time in elementry school when I had to spell I-C-U-P."

Wow!! I hadn't heard that one in 30 years. Excellent!

What Feldhoff says on the ICF site is his interpretation and NOT what the GAISF said. Watch this space for more information. A message should be coming out from IDBF soon as they are just as baffled by ICF's continued acrimony and strange spin on things.

Don't forget, ICF unilaterally declared DB to be their sport only a couple of years ago and many years after they joined GAISF and only after IDBF put in their first bid for GAISF membership. However, IDBF had been developing the sport for years prior to ICF becoming interested, ran continental and international championships long before ICF started any db championships and formed an international governing body in 1991, way before ICF claimed dragon boat sport (Ryffel & Nomrowsky, founders of the ICF db commission were IDBF affiliated first and jumped ship when they were voted out of their national federations). Most db paddlers (serious sport, festival, recreational all counted) come primarily from a db background and are IDBF affiliated in some way. DB is separate. The GAISF acceptance of the IDBF confirmed that the sport is different enough to be separately represented by its own federation. (This said by a dragon boater who does dragon boating through IDBF and kayaking through ICF.)

The next step is for both federations to work with each other on common interests, while retaining independence and autonomy in their respective areas. 'Nuff said.

GAISF never said that there are two federations which control db sport by this vote. Similar activities within two federations is NOT the same as two federations controlling the same sport.

When is canoeing going to realize it is nothing more than a fringe sport (that costs us millions in tax dollars). Outside of the 2km radius of canoe clubs here in canada no one knows what it is.

Why doesn't CKC focus on growing their sport?

"The GAISF acceptance of the IDBF confirmed that the sport is different enough to be separately represented by its own federation. (This said by a dragon boater who does dragon boating through IDBF and kayaking through ICF.)"


Come on, now. Re-read what you wrote. If you do kayaking through the ICF, you KNOW that that dragon boating is more similar to canoeing than it is to kayaking. Dragon boat coaches often choose individual paddlers for coveted roster spots by using traditional canoes, OC-1's (that's "Outrigger CANOE -- One Person") or ergs with a canoe-paddle adaptor. Do you know any coaches who test their paddlers in a kayak? If the IDBF wants to maintain that its sport is different from canoeing, than it should ban coaches from testing dragon boaters in canoes.

The GAISF acceptance is about one thing only: politics. The GAISF's decision doesn't prove that dragon boating is different from canoeing. For anyone to claim so is beyond ridiculous. The GAISF acceptance proves that politics overruled reason (and very obvious reason, at that!). This wonderful sport is simply being poisoned by politics. The fact that the IDBF has made such a preposterous public statement -- that dragon boating is fundamentally different from canoeing -- proves that the IDBF has outlasted its useful life.

BTW, the poisonous politics are not just happening at the international level. The reason why many teams are starting to compete in ICF international races is because of the political poison happening in their respective countries' organizations. In the future, look for more and more teams to compete in ICF events as their homeland organizations (sometimes in conjunction with the IDBF) continue to alienate them as well. As this occurs, ICF events will become more competitive while IDBF events will become less so. As a result of this dichotomy, this sport may never again have a true World Championship. And it may have already happened in 2005. I believe that the top German team was racing in an ICF event instead of the IDBF World Championships at that time.

It's a shame that this fun, competitive -- yet niche -- sport attracts so many top-level organizational egomaniacs who refuse to give up their "power" for the greater good of the sport.

"Do you know any coaches who test their paddlers in a kayak?"

Doug Tutty - Head Coach, Canadian Open Crew 2000-2005(?)
Multiple Gold Medallist

Doug allowed us to use our own personal boats for our paddle test in addition to an OC-1 test. Kayaks were allowed.

Karl Marx said once "We distinguish ourselves by distinguishing ourselves." In other words we are different because we say we are. We don't want to be in the ICF -period.

Who gives a rat's ass if the stroke, paddle and paddlers are exactly the same? It doesn't serve the interests of our sport (which has more participants than all other competitive paddle sports combined) to become a branch of the the mother ship. We are way better off on our own. There is no upside to being part of the ICF

They would just siphon off the cash we bring in to keep themselves afloat.

Just ask yourselves why are they (ICF) fighting so hard to take us over? Is it for our benefit -or theirs?

"Doug allowed us to use our own personal boats for our paddle test in addition to an OC-1 test. Kayaks were allowed."

That's interesting. And considering his success, his methods are certainly worth consideration. But how was he able to compare the kayak results to the results in other personal boats? It would seem like apples to oranges, unless the coach had a benchmark time for each boat.

However, it seems by your statement that he used the OC-1 on everyone as well -- so it's clear that at least part of the test for everyone was in a canoe. That said, I LIKE the fact that the OC-1 test is not necessarily his only objective criteria. Some coaches use the OC-1 test as their only objective testing criteria.

The OC-1 test is flawed.

...yet still better than any other measure.

Every test is flawed to those that suck.

If you were racing a truck around a circuit, you would't test the driver
in a Formula 1 racing car.
http://www.btra.org/

A dragonboat is a big truck.
Why test in a small sprint boat ?

In a 500m sprint for example, who goes faster (holding strength and ability constant, or reasonably close), an OC-1 or a 20 person BUK dragon boat?

From what I've heard and seen, it's pretty close, with the edge going to the 20 person BUK dragon boat.

Seems like OC-1 isn't that bad a test, effort-wise. And the Truck vs F1 car comparison isn't a great analogy.

"Why test in a small sprint boat ?"


Ah, that the BIG question regarding dragon boat testing. Has anyone come up with a solution?

"In a 500m sprint for example, who goes faster (holding strength and ability constant, or reasonably close), an OC-1 or a 20 person BUK dragon boat?

From what I've heard and seen, it's pretty close, with the edge going to the 20 person BUK dragon boat.

Seems like OC-1 isn't that bad a test, effort-wise. And the Truck vs F1 car comparison isn't a great analogy."


While I agree that the truck/F1 analogy is flawed, so is your logic regarding boat speeds. Just because OC-1's and BUK boats go about the same speed, that means nothing. A kayak would go at about the same speed as the OC-1, too. (It's within 10%). Would you rather have a K-1 test instead of an OC-1 test.

The problem with the OC-1 is that a true dragon-boat stroke will not necessarily give you the best time in the OC-1. So unless your dragon-boat stroke turns out to be the ideal OC-1 stroke, to do well in the OC-1 testing you must master a somewhat different technique.

French and english are both spoken by caucasian people. should quebec law be dictated by those from ontario?

A thing is defined by its culture. There are many examples of similar sports with different federations, and all for good reason.

To do well in an OC-1, the arm has to be out of the water no matter which side it is placed.
This means - don't paddle a Dragon Boat stroke in it.

A K-1 and an OC1 wouldn't even be close in a race.

Why use OC1?
-Can use Dragonboat Paddle
-Not tippy like a DB
-Paddling based test (a good way to test paddling ability!)
-Steering should not be an issue (unlike most other boats)
-Strength vs. Weight trade off built into measure

Why is it not ideal?
-The optimal technique, though ballpark, is different
-Strength vs. weight trade off, though there, is not exactly the same as DB
-Boat glide and optimal rate is different

Is there a better test out there?
-No, not that I've ever heard

Theoretical perfect test (for fun)- starts not included?
-Strap motor on back of DB
-Get boat moving at 500m pace and approach a 500m course
-Use GPS to make sure boat speed is of consistent KPH when hitting the line
-When boat his line, have one person start paddling and the others just sitting in the boat
-Calculate the increase in GPS time from the baseline (what would it be, like a second or two over 500m?)

There you have your value added per paddler. Now get out there and make it happen!!!

I kayak thru ICF, but canoe on my own. ICF offers me nothing of value for canoeing. Even my canoe club is considering withdrawing from the national canoe/kayak federation because there is little done for recreational paddlers who make up most of the canoe club's voting membership (regardless of my competitive aims).

I dragon boat thru IDBF and have been doing so since 1997 when I discovered db racing. They have been running championships longer and with better quality and more equitable and transparent criteria for what qualifies as a national team vs club team. Many canoe/kayak clubs in other countries don't want to have a thing to do with dragon boating, so I'll stick with an IDBF-affiliated organization where I know I am supported and whose target group is dragon boat participants. ICF affiliation would represent the death of dragon boat racing in my country as well as a number of others in Europe.

Whether a canoe or dragon boat have certain similiarities or not is a moot point. I use a canoe and kayak to keep fit for dragon boat. They are tools, just like my rower, my weights, my stationary bike, stair climber, my rollerblades, etc.

DB has its own international federation, national, continental and world championships and thousands of paddlers who compete on a serious or festival level around the world. ICF does not. Under ICF, dragon boat is just a minor sideshow run by a handful of European egomaniacs and a mad German who wants to get his hands on the money the numbers of dragon boat participants would bring in to prop up his ailing canoe program. It would only hurt canoeing if dragon boating was strong within the ICF - db participants would overwhelm the traditional canoeists with sheer numbers.

Why doesn't ICF focus on improving the situation for core canoe sports? And on sport development for women? Maybe underdeveloped traditional canoe sports should join IDBF where they'd be likely to get a warm welcome.

See you in Sydney sucker.

Once again , Marathon in CKC is NOT an ICF sport. ICF marathon racing is representd by the sprint division.

"Under ICF, dragon boat is just a minor sideshow run by a handful of European egomaniacs and a mad German who wants to get his hands on the money the numbers of dragon boat participants would bring in to prop up his ailing canoe program."


You make a GREAT point -- except that the IDBF is no different in its greed and egomania, is it??? Do you think that the IDBF makes no money off of dragon boating?

It's sad that this wonderful sport attracts so many egomaniacs who try to run it. IDBF, ICF: it'll all be the same.

Some one has to manage and govern the sport. IDBF has earned the right to do this. That is the difference. If the sport becomes rich then good for them. They deserve it, just like a businessman who builds a new product to a big success. In fact, some dragon boat people are building dragon boat companies who are seeing success. I use an example of the Great White company in Canada with many arms reaching out in the business world. We have a similar company in Europe.

But the IDBF has a CONFLICT OF IINTEREST if it profits from dragon boating. The IDBF should be not-for-profit, yet at many events paddlers are REQUIRED to spend money on accomodations at specific hotels. You KNOW that someone is getting a kick-back.

If an independent company wants to make money, more power to them. But the governing body of an amateur sport should be not-for-profit.

Not-for-profits are not in the business to break even. They are in it also to make money. The only difference is that they are not permitted to distribute share equity (profits) to the directors of the corporation. But they need to pay staff to do the work, no? What, do you think the International Sailing Federation flat-lines every year??? What about the not-for-porfit IOC? Talk about an organization with money!

The problem is that ICF is trying to take over dragon boating after it became popular while having contributed nothing to its growth. Cynical and oportunistic.

Hear, hear!

By the way, to Mr/Ms Kickback Accusations, I am an IDBF official. I work a regular day job because all the kick backs from the IDBF keep me in villas, vacations, expensive cars and fancy clothes (yeah, right).

'Tis true, there are some commercial ventures who make money in dragon boating, but I don't know of anyone who gets IDBF kickbacks. IDBF is now trying to get the commercial organizations to put more money into the organization so that dragon boating can be further developed - both on a grass roots participant level and on an administrative back office level (websites, supplies, publicity materials, mailing costs, etc. all have to come from somewhere).

I rather wish I could make money from dragon boating, then I wouldn't have to work a regular day job and try to squeeze my dragon boat work into the rest of my time (officiating, paddling, coaching, youth development). I also wouldn't have to pay my own flights and such when travelling to events to officiate, wouldn't have to pay for my official's kit out of my pocket, wouldn't have to limit the time I can give to this great sport because I have to put bread on the table too...

The FIB should just let the FIH run the sport. To say that bandy is a totally different discipline than hockey is ridiculous. Bandy should be part of hockey!

Bodybuilding, weightlifting, and powerlifting should be represented by one organization too!

Beans and cornbread!!

"But the IDBF has a CONFLICT OF IINTEREST if it profits from dragon boating. The IDBF should be not-for-profit, yet at many events paddlers are REQUIRED to spend money on accomodations at specific hotels. You KNOW that someone is getting a kick-back."

How's that tinfoil hat treating ya?

No, hockey should be part of bandy. It descended from bandy. And I still think that pingpong should be part of IDBF - they are both paddle sports and practiced at a high level by the Chinese.

Maybe "kickbacks" isn't the correct word.

Let's go back to the Club Crew Championships in Rome, 2002. The "host" accomodations turned out to be this sorry excuse for a campground about 20 minutes outside of Rome. Well, that wouldn't be a bad thing if the teams had been charged the TRUE price for those crummy accomodations (plus a little something extra for the buses). But they were charged by the race organizers around $70/person per night for a place that normally charged about $20/person per night!! Of course, the teams didn't find this out until there first day in Italy.

Many teams wanted out. They were willing to find their own accomodations (at market price) if they could get their money refunded for the absurdly overpriced accomodations. Fair enough, right?

Well, the race officials (specifically, Claudio Schermi) would not agree. In fact, all teams were told that if they were to get their money refunded for the accomodations, THEY COULD NOT RACE.

That's right. The deal in Rome was: grossly overpay or don't race.

So where did that all that extra money go?

Call it a "kickback" -- or maybe just a "ripoff".

If this is true, I would want a committee struck to investigate this. I am totally serious. Which IDBF official should we direct this request to?

Why would you stay at a campground in Rome when hotels were a few bucks more per day? Due diligence and all that...

Ask the same question to Claudio.
I was there and the Rome poster is correct.

This is something to learn from.

OK, now that it's been shown (Rome 2002) that the IDBF does, in fact, rip paddlers off -- where are all the IDBF cheerleaders??? Anything to say about Rome? Can you explain what happened in Rome so you can show us that the IDBF is NOT corrupt?

First, you should start another thread. This is the GAISF thread.

Second, Rome was years ago. Perhaps the transport arrangements were only available from the camp so in principle what you claim Claudio said was true, for a different reason - the paddlers couldn't attend the races if they didn't stay at the camp because transport wouldn't be available. Perhaps it was a language problem - a misunderstanding in what the organizers were saying about race attendance and lodgings. Maybe there's just some simple cultural differences in how business is done in other countries - in Southern Europe they do business differently than in North America. Maybe the camp, like the race location, were run by the same organization (whether municipal or private) so use of the one required use of the other. There's countless other reasons for an organizer to require staying at a particular location.

Third, in some countries you must stay in specific locations regardless of whether or not the hotels are cheaper elsewhere due to visa requirements (Russia and some of the former Soviet countries).

Kickbacks, not impossible but highly unlikely.

Cheers.

I wasn't a part of this conversation but I should point out that kickbacks are just as likeley as the scenarios mentioned above. Rome certainly doesn't have visa restrictions.

"the paddlers couldn't attend the races if they didn't stay at the camp because transport wouldn't be available "

The fiasco in Rome with campground was solely due to people signing up for stuff without actually reading what are they signing up for.
I stayed at a hotel on the race course, it was a blast. Only $10 per day over the campground and walking distance to the course. You'd walk by few bars as well...