How many teams out there, have now switched to the outrigger stroke? Or are planning to in the near future.

By outrigger stroke I mean:
Top arm bent and beside head (instead of above head)
Not so much reach (lunge) forward and more rotate torso within the space that you sit.
Exit with a whip-it-out in a "J"

Has this stroke proven successful in dragonboat?

That's pretty much the USA Premier Open team used in Sydney. How'd that work out?

You make this sound like a brand new stroke when in fact it's for the most part similar to marathon. A Marathon canoe type stroke has been around quite a while in DB but not quite as prevelent as one may think due to the recent popularity of outrigger... the only difference is there are more people now paddling outrigger than marathon 10 + years ago!
Do you know Stan Machacek?

We've already changed our stroke to this and we fly.

The sprint style straight top arm , lots of lunge dominated Toronto DB until about 5 years ago when a bunch of old marathoners showed up and won races. Since then most better T.O. teams have moved to sort of hybred stroke , bent top arm , less body movement , more rotation.

I believe Mayfair (and G&G) still use the sprint straight arm stroke, so there are still some decent crews that haven't switched.

LOL I wouldn't quantify them as a decent crew. I would think they are much better than DECENT.

Mayfair and G&G - the guard is changing, they are over the hill now.

Hell, I can't even get UP that hill, let alone over it!

LOL. That's too funny. But like they say, you wanna be the man you gotta beat the man.

Until then, STFU and paddle.

(btw - not a predator or a G&G paddler, but credit where it's due and don't be a jackass)

Over the hill on what planet - check what they are doing before you make such unfounded comments.

Did G&G win anything this year?

"Did G&G win anything this year?"

Not particularly, but look who they lost to! Mayfair and the Canadian Senior DBC. More "over the hill" teams!

G&G was very competitive at both Pickering and the club crew trials. They may not have won, but they are still clearly a top crew.

i wouldnt say G&G is over the hill, Mayfair is just the best for now. (at least in Ontario lets see how they will stack against FRCC in Penang)
It will be interesting to see if G&G will re-emerge in the near future.

clearly #2 in Ontario according the qualifiers doesn't really constitute "over the hill", they are just not #1

you people kill me. As a flat water paddler who has raced in a number of good dragon boats (including some you mention) I can tell you that I have never paddled with a straight top arm or "lunged". We may paddle differently than the marathoners but can you at least do a better job of describing the technique we use? You sound so misinformed when you talk about it.

To posted message from October 12 2007, 10:40 PM

It would be appreciated if you could describe the stroke in better words, than I used. I tried to keep it simple by describing it in only a few words. I would love to hear YOUR description of the stroke that you speak of, so that we can all be clear about it.
As far as I can see there are 5 different strokes and then variations between them. Please give a description on the strokes that you know. Also please let us know some of your successes and how long you have been paddling in what discipline. Thanks.

Outrigger Stroke

Marathon Stroke

Mayfair and G&G Stroke

Western (False Creek) Stroke

Hong Kong Stroke

This summer Danny Chang (spelling?) was instructing paddlers to keep the top arm quite stright and strong, dissimilar, in my view, to the typcail Marathon stroke. The main difference I see between C1 (and the dragon boat stroke which has come from this) and OC1, is the dislike for lunge and emphasis on rotation in the OC1 stroke.

I paddled with both marathoners , sprinters and pure dragon boaters.Sprinters and marathoners are not as different in a DB as you would think , bent top arm , rotation etc. Not surprising because that is how to paddle efficently with a short paddle sitting down. The teams attempting to imitate a high kneel stroke with a straight top arm were never the teams of canoe racers.

Oct 12 1:39

So you call the G&G elite team over the hill. Average age on that boat is around 30. The seniors are seniors they're supposed to be old and yes many of them are good enough to race with the elite. Alumni is a fun crew for all ages ranging from 18 to damn near 80. The guard is changing?! To who? Let's see Pirannahs -um I think not they can't even beat Hanalei which is not even in the same ball park as G&G and Mayfair. Imps = no. Hydro- alot of work to go yet. G&G seniors would actually beat all these team but I guess as you put it there over the hill. I'm sure you won't feel like a complete jack ass next year when a bunch of over the hill paddlers beat your sorry ass. No not a G&G paddler just hate idiots and arm chair coaches.

There was no need to drag the Piranhas, Imps and Hydro into this. I seriously doubt anyone on those teams would be slagging Mayfair or G&G.

All sorts of strokes can still work in dragon boat. I have yet to see a definitive stroke that works for all teams, every year. And my suspicion, after a few years of paddling is that the most effective dragon boat stroke is likely a hybrid of a number of different styles. Some OC, some Marathon, a decent helping of Sprint/Flatwater.

You think YOUR stroke is best. That's fine. Good, even. But don't close off your mind completely to other views.

False Creek outrigger paddlers use a straight top arm.

look closer at that photo. his arm is bent ~45 degrees

Some ex-Imps are now on G&G
Some ex-G&G are on the Imps

I can assure you there is no **** talking.

There are slight differences between all the strokes and many similarities. Its funny listening to comments of teams now switching. The Monks used a mix of Marathon and OC stroke mechanics a long time ago and were quite successful doing so.

Yes Danny Ching coached a fairly locked Top arm during the power phase of the stroke but its not completely straight, what he teaches is to emphasize both arms and the core moving together. Just go and look at paddling Pics of Danny on OC Paddler and you will see his top arm is not totally straight.

What I find different about OC is the start position of the top hand which is between the eyes and just around or above the forehead and your body position centered not leaned out sideways over the boat. So yes it emphasizes rotation. This does not mean it is a short stroke. Anyone who has seen Danny paddle will tell you how long the guys stroke is for someone who is only 5'8". Even in Outrigger there are different stroke lengths and rates - just look at the differences between the Tahitian OC stroke and the Hawaiin stroke.

Bottom line, play and learn what works for your team. You can go fast many ways using many styles.

finally, someone who knows what he or she is talking about!!

After 12 years of marathon canoe racing, and three years serious dragonboat racing, my conclusion is that it doesn't matter which stroke you use for dragonboat racing - what matters is that the whole team use the same stroke. In Sydney, I paddled with the Seniors(CSDC) for mixed, and the Granddragons (Eat Trout, essentially) for open - the teams have radically different strokes - CSDC uses the flat water stroke tattoed into our brain by hours in the paddle pool with Mac Hickox, while Eat Trout used the pure marathon stroke, and sitting behind Stan Machacek I had no choice but to adapt - and both teams can certainly get the boat moving. So as long as you rememer who you are paddling with, and you all use the same technique, the style of stroke doesn't matter (in my humble opinion).

At least there's one or two people here who knows what the hell they're talking about.

I agree with the assertion that it doesn't matter what stroke you use for DB.

I would like to take that further by saying, especially at the International level where little differences count, it's important to have a stroke type that matches they type of crew you have.

The Worlds brilliantly illustrated that, there were small teams, light teams, muscular teams, 'puny' teams etc..

There is a mirror.. just as an Olympic athlete these days is a collision between mental strength, talent and genetics...

... a World Championship winning DB crew could also be described not just as a crew with the right people, but one with the bio-mechanics to complement their physical make-up, talents and background.

3 people who know what they are talking about

We are changing our stroke to a Marathon/Kayak hybrid.

We switched from the straight upper arm/high hand position/lunge to the bent upper arm/upper hand between eyes/rotate and have been improving our times with the stroke.

Many top open teams here are still using the straight upper arm/high hand/lunge. They are successful with it because they spend lots of time on the water, spend the time on the technique, are quite fit and fairly matched in height & weight.

Why did we switch away from this apparent success formula? Because it wasn't working for us and we needed to start from scratch. We also needed to find a stroke whereby the lunge didn't result in the boat being pushed downwards in the water every time our bigger, heavier paddlers went forward, so a more upright sitting position was a logical choice.

Indeed biggest problem is to get the entire boat doing the same thing, regardless of the stroke. Try to diagnose any problems you are having with your stroke and adapt your paddling technique accordingly. This year's fashion doesn't fit all bodies well. (In other words, what works for one team may not work as well for another for various reasons.) This is said with 11 years of competitive dragon boat racing experience behind me (and many more in front of me, I hope) and a lifetime of recreational paddling in various craft.

I second that.

My observations have been - big bend at the waist is great for getting newer teams to use their bodies instead of arms.

As you move up the ranks, the focus on rotation becomes much more important, though there is still a fair degree of bend at the waist.

At the national team level, there isn't enough time to be bending at the waist - and it isn't the most efficient, instead the power in the boat is used to raise the stroke rate and the focus is more on an upright rotational stroke that keeps the boat from dropping between strokes.

Keep in mind that the more powerful the crew, the easier it is to bring the rate up, as the water is moving relatively faster when compared to the boat. Work the rate up as you progress, rather than trying to paddle beyond your means.

There may be some confusion in term "locked top arm". It can meam straight arm , locked elbow. It can also mean that the elbow and shoulder joints are at a fixed angle (not straight , just fixed) while the core does the work ; this is the principle behind the marathon and outrigger strokes as well as the best dragon boat strokes.

I've never heard of anyone using a completely locked top arm for Dragon Boat.

I.e. locked at the elbow.