When will dragon boating in the North Americas have equity on mixed teams with 10 women and 10 men seated?

Toronto Island has tried it. It sucked.

Lock this thread immediately!

All the rules say is at least 8 people of one gender. You can race with 8 women/12 men, 10 women/10 men or even 12 women and 8 men. It's up to you!

What are you doing on a forum if you are scared to debate?

I say go for the 10/10 rule, ladies represents 70% of the D-B scene.

Great for the boys 2

"I say go for the 10/10 rule, ladies represents 70% of the D-B scene"

Where do you get that?

IDBF rules for a mixed call for a minumum of 8 women and maximum of 12 women paddlers. Max paddlers in the boat: 20 (plus drummer and helm). In essence this means that 4 spots can be filled by males or females (or a combination).

Most coaches (even the few female coaches there are in the db world) nevertheless go with a higher number of men (8 women & 12 men, for example) in a mixed hoping to capitalize on the (presumably) greater strength of men. But if a coach has the luxury of strength, technique, experience and all that jazz in both male and female paddlers, he or she should fill in the 4 "optional" spots with the best paddlers s/he has for them, whether male or female.

"When will dragon boating in the North Americas have equity on mixed teams with 10 women and 10 men seated?"

When will you stop focusing on gender Equity and ensure all the other important forms of Equity? All teams should have at least 5 visual minorities on them to ensure racial Equity --- though this would probably mean trying to increase the number of non-visual minorities on the team in most cases.

Not to mention we would need equal representation of religions, culture, creed, etc.

Dragon boat, the great melting pot of sport.

Let's hear it for affirmative action!

"On the (presumably) greater strength of men"

Oh please. All things being equal, its almost always men. Since when has a Premier Women's boat medalled against a Premier Open (Men's) boat in the worlds or even posted times that would be close?

Well, if you notice, it was written by "Boatchik", which means that it's a "just because we're women, it doesn't mean that we're weaker" mentality at work.

Again, you can use up to 12 women or men. If the rules said you could NOT use more than 8 women, that would be discriminatory. In order to qualify as a mixed crew at least 40% of the crew has to be of one gender.

You might be better off putting in 12 of the National Premier Women's team for example.

So why are we even talking about this? If you want to use 10 and 10, go ahead!

Clearly the 3rd poster must be the #11 or #12 man on his team, to be so afraid of a woman taking his seat! Most serious teams already have racial equity; corporate teams may not.

This is a topic people are interested in. At most races, if it weren't for the women, there would not even been an event. This is true on the west coast and east coast. Many of the first teams developed are BCS teams. From there, local festivals are created and more teams developed. All in the spirit of developing the sport further.

"At most races, if it weren't for the women, there would not even been an event. This is true on the west coast and east coast. Many of the first teams developed are BCS teams. From there, local festivals are created and more teams developed."

So much is wrong here, I just don't know where to begin.

Ah forget it. I'll leave it to one of our stalwart mysogynist defenders of malehood to take this apart line by line. (no friends of mine, but they have admirable...passion) I could do it more gently, but not as entertainingly.

But really, I ask you, do you really believe what you typed?

I think it's generally agreed that Mayfair, False Creek, Dragon Beasts, Gorgin and Sudbury are the best 5 true club teams in the country. You can add Events Alive and G&G if you want and debate whether they are club teams or not.

The point - of those 7 crews Cleopatra - how many race with more than 8 women?

However, according to the rules, they can race with up to 12. If Farintosh et al thought that their crew would be one inch better with a female over a guy, trust me, that 11th or 12th guy would be gone in an instant.

It is and should be performance based, not mandated. As a female athlete, that's how I want it to be.

"At most races, if it weren't for the women, there would not even been an event. This is true on the west coast and east coast."

Sorry guys, but I happen to fully agree with this.

After all, dragon boat IS the sport of choice on the Isle of Lesbos.

p.s. you have to be careful with scissors

The rule of 8 Minimum (either gender), is there plain and simply, to make sure that most teams can fill a boat to even race.

Anyone of you captains can empathize its enough of a problem sometimes to even fill the boat. Sometimes you gotta just get anything with a pulse.
Whoever is available that day, I've gone at times with 12 guys and other times 12 girls. Sometimes I've gone 8 and 11 and even 8:8. Its hard at times to even have a full 20 roster.

Any changes to the Ratio requirement would make it NightMare to Captain a team. I'm happy to meet the quota for 8. I need the Flexibility to put a Full boat together.

Leave well enough alone. 50% of the teams would be disqualified if you go 10:10.

Than the Festivals would suck, because Captains who maintain Skeleton crews like me (and not by Choice) would be scrambling and delaying the marshalling because someone went for a leak, or could not use their last spare when person #10 took a nap under a tree and forget to wake up and nobody could find them.

I envy the teams with the depth to not have these problems. But these are real issues for the less entrenched C-div and lower grass roots teams.

That is so true - a practical reason why gender Equality is provided, but not gender Equity.

The 8-12 system is much better and 10-10 for the reasons above.

"Ah forget it. I'll leave it to one of our stalwart mysogynist defenders of malehood to take this apart line by line. (no friends of mine, but they have admirable...passion) I could do it more gently, but not as entertainingly."

Here we go! Here we f*cking go...!

A woman can make disparaging remarks about men. That's okay.

But

if

you

DARE disagree with it, you're a misogynist.

I am so completely sick of this sh!t, and every douchebag who subscribes to this philosophy -male, or female. I hate injustice, and that's exactly what this is. It is unjust, and a double-standard that only hypocrites enjoy, because it favours them.

The "rules" are made up on the fly by immature, liberal ideologists, who've had their brains filled with muck by professors who sit in ivory towers, and who have thrown away all personal integrity, because the injustice they themselves have fought for years, has been replaced by privilege, empowerment, and entitlement, and it tastes gooooood!

What will you do when the pendulum swings back toward the center? How will you deal with the shock of true equality between the sexes? Your halcyon days of privilege, and special status will be over. How sad for you.

This is completely disgusting.

But as for the question by the OP, maybe you ought to talk to the coaches who take advantage of the flexibility that the rules allow them in order to fill the boat with the maximum amount of men possible, in order to maximize power. Male coaches do this. Female coaches do this. Why? Two reasons: Firstly, they recognize a simple physiological fact, being that on average, men possess greater upper body strength than women. Secondly, they like to win.

Ta daa! My how utterly complicated that was.

Take a grow up-pill, and deal with a simple reality. The stronger, and fitter you are, the greater the chance that the coach will put you in. You sound like an office zero to me. None of the superb female athletes I know would ever bother to b!tch about the male/female ratio, because they're always in the boat, and have nothing to worry about.

Shaddap and hit the gym, already.

<Stands and Applauds>

Forum Troll should be nominated to be an honorary member of NO MA'AM.

FT you sound like a big, dumb dog attacking a dirty sock.

You know, like a rottweiler worrying away at some tired old toy as if he's trying to chew the life out of it. Amusing for a while, then kind of sad.

Cleo is misguided. She made some silly statements that I knew would draw a particular crowd. So I trotted out good old "misogyny" and waved it like the red flag I knew it to be. Thanks for responding as expected.

November 15 2007, 9:24 AM

Her (I assume her) post is the standard feminist post. Condescending, arrogant and lacking in notable material

Right on Forum Troll, I'm proud to call you my creator.
I would like to add that it might be beneficial to get rid of the 8 man minimum. When I started out I was with a new club that had a hard time recruiting men into the sport and as a result we had a 4/16, 5/15 split (M/W). Fortunately we were done in the D/E realm and nobody seemed to really care, but it would have been unfortunate to have been DQ'd for entering a race with a clear disadvantage.

Maybe if I had said "douchebag" a couple times it would have been less condescending?

Grow up guys.

To: "Well, if you notice, it was written by "Boatchik", which means that it's a "just because we're women, it doesn't mean that we're weaker" mentality at work."

I said "(presumably) superior strength" because if I said men always had superior strength, then the women would have a fit. No, instead a (presumably) male poster has a fit because I chose to use terminology that doesn't exclude males or females and considers only the best paddler regardless of their sexual characteristics.

This forum is getting mighty predictable and boring.

Way to not defend the most important part of his criticsm. The fact that you had nothing material to say in the first place.

Person 1 - "You're and Ugly Murderer"
Person 2 - "I'm not ugly!"

"Well, if you notice, it was written by "Boatchik", which means that it's a "just because we're women, it doesn't mean that we're weaker" mentality at work."

FT this is for your attention. There are lots of examples of Misogyny on this forum. It does not mean that every person who does not agree with a particular statement referring to gender equity is misogynist.

Essentially misogynists hold a negative view of women as a group as a whole, or a particular group of women who do not fit into one or more particular categories.

I think most misogynists on this forum seem to think that women are ok - as long as they don't try to make any progressive steps to promote women in the sport.

I think it is funny that a lot of men seem to think that the promotion of women in the sport hurts us as men - that we now suffer from some sort of injustice because there are women's only regetta's, or in the gender races - their is a "women only" category but not a "men only category". Typically men do not face the same stigma that women do when it comes to participation in sport. The age old stereotype of male and female roles in society immediately come to mind. I think we have come along way to making sport in general more inclusive to women - but barriers will always remain.

yawn

FIT DB women are SEXAY!!!!!!

(well some of them at least)

Promote women in the sport???

Was dragon boat, in Canada, EVER a mens-only sport? To my knowledge, it has ALWAYS been implicit that it's a coed sport, with no favouritism towards either sex. That means male AND female. If you want to push for some sort of publicity or regulations to announce that it's a 50/50 ratio sport, well then that's just dumb.

"Promote women in the sport???"

"Was dragon boat, in Canada, EVER a mens-only sport? To my knowledge, it has ALWAYS been implicit that it's a coed sport, with no favouritism towards either sex. That means male AND female. If you want to push for some sort of publicity or regulations to announce that it's a 50/50 ratio sport, well then that's just dumb."

???? WTF are you talking about???

"FT you sound like a big, dumb dog attacking a dirty sock.
You know, like a rottweiler worrying away at some tired old toy as if he's trying to chew the life out of it. Amusing for a while, then kind of sad."

Likewise, thank you for demonstrating, most effectively, my point.
A male is not permitted-
-NOT ALLOWED-
to disagree to anything stated by a woman, without smug, self-satisfied, a$$holes like yourself chiming in about how anyone who does is an abusive, woman-hating, pr!ck.

I dared to disagree -I dared to say, "Stop looking for a free ride because you're a woman, and go to the gym and get fit, like all of the other superb female athletes out there who've had to work for it, and have EARNED it"- and the guardians of womanhood declare me a "big, dumb dog".

Yeaaahhhh, f*ck you. You, and all those like you can bite my a$$.

And with that, I'm late for the next chapter meeting of "NO MA'AM"

Maybe if you spent a little less time jerking off in your parents basement, and a little more time living in the real world, you would not writew such stupid drivel on the internet.

You may not be a misogynst little creep, but you are a creep none the less.

Funniest thing. This episode happened to be on tv last nite.

"Maybe if you spent a little less time jerking off in your parents basement, and a little more time living in the real world, you would not writew such stupid drivel on the internet.
You may not be a misogynst little creep, but you are a creep none the less."


I'M a creep?
Who's the one watching me jerk off in my parents' basement, beeyotch!!??

(C'mon baby, you know you want it... All you gotta do is ask nicely.)

"I'M a creep?
Who's the one watching me jerk off in my parents' basement, beeyotch!!??

What makes you think I am a "beeyotch"? Although I am sure you are used to women rejecting you - men are quite capable of disliking you too.

(Thus making you even more of a beyotch.)

this has got to be the worst post of the year

Does anyone know how 8/12 split rule was set up wayyyy back when? Could it be that wayyyy back, more men than women participated in this sport?

Finally, a worthwhile post! Thank you for asking a great question! Does anyone know the answer?

To be a truly mixed team an equitable split seems apropriate. With 16 on the boat, 8/8; with 18 on the boat 9/9 and with 20 on the boat, 10/10. Maybe that's how the rule was intended, but it's been misinterpreted? I don't know...just asking??

I always thought it was harder to find female paddlers. Hence, it made more sense to have a 12/8 split of men/women on the boat. That seemed to be the case for my crew last year.

Plus, it's also harder to find women who share the same philosophy of being in a A-division contender. Most A-division teams I know train all year long and should be willing to pack on the muscles, something most women don't want to do, hence they do low-weight, high rep workouts which I find useless for the sake of dragonboat.

Here's a guess... Could one of the great ironies actually be that this rule was set up to AID teams in a pinch, rather than punish them?

Consider: We've all had the experience of having to dig up extra paddlers at race time for one reason or another. If you were held to a strict 10/10 rule, and you could only find a spare paddler of the "wrong" sex, then you'd have to go with an empty seat.

This way, coaches are allowed to play with their numbers to a certain extent, and have different ratios of male:female (i.e., 8:12, 9:11, 10:10, 11:9, or 12:8).

This gives you five options as opposed to one.

If this was the case, then once again, it comes back to the coaches who want to win, and who take advantage of the rule to maximize power from their crews.

'high rep workouts which I find useless for the sake of dragonboat.'

errr yea!

"To be a truly mixed team an equitable split seems apropriate."

Why does it have to be 50-50 to be "a truly mixed team"?

Anyways - having a minimum of 8 men and 8 women is actually a fair split. As mentioned on this thread allowing teams to fill the remaining 4 seats as they like gives team captains some much needed flexibility in balancing their rosters.

I think the 12/8 rule, or 8&8 rule, whatever rule it is that makes most teams paddle with 12 guys and 8 gals makes sense in the here & now because it allows flexibility, as others have said. But I think that ideally we should go to 10/10 because it would make more sense to the masses we want to market this sport to.

Co-ed sports are odd ducks to begin with. Curling, Tennis...any others? Most sports are strictly unisex at the upper levels. So explaining the appeal of mixed dragon boat racig is hard enough in a world that divides sports by gender without having to also explain this weird 60/40 split.

It's not that weird. Ultimate has a 4/3 split as a co-ed sport.

There needs to be some flexibility - otherwise 2/3 of the teams out there will have to paddle with missing bodies in their boats, not exactly appealing to the masses.

"But I think that ideally we should go to 10/10 because it would make more sense to the masses we want to market this sport to."

I think you are grasping at straws here.

And do you really think women are staying away because of the 12:8 ratio?

Definitely grasping at straws. As a previous poster said, go to the gym, get in shape, get strong, and you won't have to worry about sitting out. Get stronger than some of the men, and you'll definitely be in.

Coaches want to win, and so they play with their best, fittest people. They have the flexibility to make these choices, and so they take advantage of it. They'll put in their best 8 women, and their best 8 men. The remaining 4 positions are up for grabs, but... they go to the remaining 4 fittest.

If you're a small girl, then you can always get stronger. If you choose not to, then you'll have to cope with it. I always wanted to play pro baseball, but you know what? I'm just not big enough. Them's the breaks. That's sports. That's competition. Do I have a right to complain? No. Not really. Am I unhappy. Sure I am. But that's how it works. Not everybody can do everything they want to do. (Incidentally, I also wanted to be an astronaut, and a rock star, but I have neither the aptitude, nor the talent.)

Amen. Enough whining. (F*ck.)

The only whining on here has been "waaahhh dont call me a misogynst"

Or, "Waaaahhhhh.... I'm a guy who wears one of those silly, craft-shop hats with no brim, and sips my tea out of a cup I hold with two hands, and weigh 140 pounds, and attempts to woo women by appealing to their sensitive side, and trying to make them think I truly empathize with what it means to be a woman by having sympathetic menstrual cramps, but what I really don't know is that chicks don't generally dig guys they themselves can beat up, but instead possess some degree of muscle mass, and who can protect them in times of peril, and f*ck their brains out on demand."

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

I love granola-boys. I love cornering them like little mice, and squeezing their necks.

This is where the world is at, fellas. Scrawny, office women who've never played sports in their lives are calling the shots, now. They're empowered. They're entitled. You're not. They have more energy than you do, and will harp upon the smallest thing until you absolutely give up, and they will prevail. If you disagree, they will shriek "MISOGYNY" at the tops of their little lungs, and people will point their fingers at you, and cast you evil stares. They, and their little granola-boy Quislings run the world now.

The last two posts (by the same person) are exactly what is not right about this forum.

You are making a whack of assumptions that are completely off base.

Anyways, unless you want to continue this debate face to face (where you will see that I am far from what you assume me to be) I will no longer respond to your childish posts.

Leave me an e-mail address where I can get in touch with you.

"The only whining on here has been 'waaahhh dont call me a misogynst'"

And you say MY posts are childish? Go look up the word misogynist. It implies hatred of women, not "disagreement" with women, you Nazi.

If you are going to take the time to try to label me as a "nazi" - why not take the time to actually see what I have posted huh??

I am well aware of the defintion.

"There are lots of examples of Misogyny on this forum. It does not mean that every person who does not agree with a particular statement referring to gender equity is misogynist.

Essentially misogynists hold a negative view of women as a group as a whole, or a particular group of women who do not fit into one or more particular categories.

I think most misogynists on this forum seem to think that women are ok - as long as they don't try to make any progressive steps to promote women in the sport."

Now as I said - if you want to continue this debate - leave your email address, so you can be accountable for your comments.

Someone asked why 8:8 and not 10:10. More logical would be 9:9 since the minimum number of paddlers in a boat is 18... But I'm happy with 8:8 and just work my butt off to be one of the 8 selected!

"Now as I said - if you want to continue this debate - leave your email address, so you can be accountable for your comments."

Are you for real? You want to hold me accountable for my comments, yet you post anonymously. Whatever, darling. As well, you seem to think that I need your PERMISSION to continue posting my observations of the double-standards that women enjoy over men. Apparently, you're under the delusion that we're married.

You take the high road, set an example, provide an email address where I can reach you -and I promise you, I will- and we'll continue from there. If you haven't got the guts, then kindly refrain from engaging in sort of false bravado that women only display from the safety of their cars, or on an anonymous forum. Thanks, kindly.

"If you haven't got the guts, then kindly refrain from engaging in sort of false bravado that women only display from the safety of their cars, or on an anonymous forum. Thanks, kindly."

That WOMEN only display... LMFAO. Buddy I am a man and I have to ask you what colour is the sky in your world.

Anon 6:55PM

Why so much hate? I feel sorry for your teammates you seem like you would be such a treat to be around.

One thing you can conclude on this forum, that their definately is a lot of hate out here.

Hatred for women in general, hatred for feminists, hatred for the men who oppose misogyny, and hatred for the misogynst.

What there is lacking on here is any logical opinion, or rational thought. There is nothing wrong with people having differing opinions, but when you throw in such generalities as "typical woman" or "women's mentality" or throw in a bunch of "babe" or "sweetheart" you reveal yourself as someone who devalues an opinion just because it is a) coming from a woman or b) someone who you percieve is a woman.

I don't know if it is just one person spewing all this or if it is coming from a few different people. Regardless it is just sad. It is funny as I write this I know that people referred to above will be very predictable in their response.

But seriously guys chill out, it aint so bad being a man, on average we make more money, we have a better chance of being a CEO, politician, or any other relevant position of power, and dont even get me started on domestic violence.

"Buddy I am a man and I have to ask you what colour is the sky in your world."

Wow. You sure write like a chick.

Let's face it. We women suck! We have to work twice as hard to have half the chances of men. We are generally smaller and less physically strong. Okay, so we're usually technically better and have better practice attendance records, but it's usually brawn over everything else that prevails in selections - and we even accept that gracefully if we want our team to win.

You seldom find women coaches in most high-profile sports (and in DB) and those that do coach are usually in for a hard battle against the sceptics who think that women can't coach. We have few role models for female coaches. Men often have a hard time training under female coaches and consciously or unconsciously undermine their authority in the boat. So no wonder women don't want to take on such a difficult, draining battle. No man would accept such conditions. He'd fight or walk. If women fight we are bitches, if we walk we are quitters.

We are often found on boards of sports organizations - usually in the role of secretary or in committee work, roles where we are indispensible in taking care of all the organizational work and keeping things moving along, but of quite low status - and seldom as the chair or president of a sports organization.

When it comes to women as sports officials (referees, umpires, etc.), there are also few. Here's a place across sports where it seems that brawn is less necessary than brains, but have women been able to make their mark? Seldom. Why not? We are not considered enough of an authority and if we take on the characteristics of male authority, again we are branded as being less feminine and more bitch. And men, it seems, would rather promote other men in that arena. In DB it seems the men get the chance and encouragement to upgrade quicker than women (who are encouraged to work behind the scenes in the race secretariaat "because you're good at it").

Our experience is frequently less valued than that of men and our opinions given less weight. We are often told to be good girls and work with the system, not against it, that if we fight injustice, we'll be ostracised as uncooperative bitches. We see younger, less experienced men work their way up through the ranks in business, sports and social institutions more quickly than we do. We are judged more on our looks than on our performance and if our looks begin to fade, we are cast aside.

Oh, and then let's talk about undeniable physiological differences and traditional female issues. We deal with menstrual cramps, pregnancy pain, the bulk of household chores, childcare and are told we are not ambitious enough at work if we can't devote our bodies and souls 100% to career in the same way men can because someone has to look after the kids, take care of the volunteer work, manage the house, etc?

On top of all this you have idiots on the forum.

Wonder why I'm grumpy?

If you have testicles, count yourself lucky. My partner says he wouldn't trade places with me even for a day!

Hey, I wouldn't want to be MARRIED to you for even a day.

Two things: Firstly, get a wider brush to paint with. You haven't made broad enough generalizations in your post, here.

Secondly, get back into your time machine, and go back to 1972 where apparently, you seem to spend most of your time.

The need to get to work to serve all of my female bosses prevents me from writing you a proper reply. Perhaps at the end of the day, should I manage not to be arrested after snapping because of all of the anti-male jokes I have to endure, because apparently, they can make them with complete impunity, whereas I'd be out on the sidewalk if I even look at them funny. Talk to you later.

Bingo!

A saint has finally spoken and her name is Grumpy Old Woman! You Go Girl!!!!! Succinct & right on target.

FYI guys, just because we DB, does not mean we're a bunch of dykes!

From a heterosexual woman.

"Anonymous
Re: Women November 12 2007, 11:16 PM


Lock this thread immediately!"

"My partner says he wouldn't trade places with me even for a day!"

I'd say get your partner to do more of the stuff that you do. Your domestic experience indeed does suck, but that's because your partner is also living in the 1970s.

With respect to the other stuff (women coaches et al). The brush you paint with is indeed quite wide. How can you manage to lift it?

Some facts to be found at http://www.onlinesports.com/sportstrust/sports23.html

Some of the reports are a bit dated, granted, but not much has changed in 10 years.

For a more entertaining example visit: http://www.fmwf.com/newsarticle.php?id=1097&cat=6 It provides a good example of how even women can be sexist towards each other.

That is my brush.

It annoys the hell out of me when identifiable groups trot out statistics that have alot of surface impact but can be explained easily. For example, in one link, there is a very low percentage of athletic directors that are female.

Wanna know why?

Because there aren't that many women who aspire to those positions!!!

That's it. And its not because the men are stopping them from wanting these positions!

So yes that's your brush. It looks pretty but its made with french fries for bristles

"should I manage not to be arrested after snapping because of all of the anti-male jokes I have to endure, because apparently, they can make them with complete impunity,"

I think you are mistaking "anti-male" jokes for "anti-YOU" jokes. If I had to work with you I would make fun of you as well. I have been in the workforce for more then 20 years, including several stints where I have been outnumbered by women, and not ONCE have I been made fun of because I am a guy. What is the matter with you??

^^^^ Go back to your job dressing mannequins for the Bay, Hollywood.

"It annoys the hell out of me when identifiable groups trot out statistics that have alot of surface impact but can be explained easily. For example, in one link, there is a very low percentage of athletic directors that are female.

Wanna know why?

Because there aren't that many women who aspire to those positions!!!"

Talk about scratching the surface - maybe the greater question is WHY aren't there that many women who aspire for those positions??

/\ /\ /\ /\

Let me guess... Somehow... MEN will be to blame for all this.

What feminists often fail to consider, is that some things, plain and simple, just appeal more to men, and other things more to women.

Auto mechanics, the hard sciences, construction, heavy structural engineering, or military and emergency services have always appealed to men. Sure you have women in these professions.
THEY ARE THERE FOR YOU TO HAVE. WOMEN ARE FREE TO STUDY, AND PRACTICE IN ANY OF THESE PROFESSIONS.

But the simple reality is that they don't in the same numbers as men. Why? No big, deep, societal cause. The reality is that most probably just don't want to. It doesn't appeal to them. They don't like it. How many of the women reading this post get off on changing a set of spark plugs? Or rebuilding an engine? Or taking something apart just to see how it's put together? The simple reality is that rebuilding an eight cylinder engine probably does not appeal to most women.

The same can be said for sports managerial positions. Competition, sports, and the aggression that goes hand in glove with it... Is it too hard to imagine that this would appeal more to males, than females?

Stop looking to make a blame-case where none exists. Women can do as they please. Stop blaming men, or women, should women choose not to aspire to what YOU think they should.

^^^^ Jackass of the year

Some facts for Grrrrrumpy Old Woman:

The Executive Director of DBC is a woman.
The Director General of Canoe/Kayak Canada is a woman.
The 2007 coach of the Canadian Premier mixed and men's teams is a women.

Just a few examples...

"Jackass of the year"

Why, because you can't cope with the notion that men and women are build differently, with generally different interests, and aspirations? Or are you one of those who believe that women are actually men, but just in different bodies?

Finally!

"Why, because you can't cope with the notion that men and women are build differently, with generally different interests, and aspirations? Or are you one of those who believe that women are actually men, but just in different bodies?"

No - none of those things has anything to do with you, you are just a lame jackass, living a lame jackass life. And by the way men and women are BUILT differently not are BUILD.

Re: November 21 2007, 4:56 PM

In anticipation of Grumpy Old Woman / Cleopatra,

But stillllllll.....there should be a 10/10 split, with a 50/50 ratio for subs on every team out there! There should also be an even number of male and female coaches for every division, and exactly a 50/50 split for all DBC boards and events committees!

"But stillllllll.....there should be a 10/10 split, with a 50/50 ratio for subs on every team out there! There should also be an even number of male and female coaches for every division, and exactly a 50/50 split for all DBC boards and events committees!"


Ahhhhhhhh! At last! Someone has brought it up. Good ol' AFFIRMATIVE ACTION! Yessiree... The forced handicap that disallows you to put in a qualified player/applicant, until you FIND a body of the right sex to satisfy the quota, whether they're up to the job, or not. I always loved this strategy. Completely laughable.

"No - none of those things has anything to do with you, you are just a lame jackass, living a lame jackass life. And by the way men and women are BUILT differently not are BUILD."

So essentially your issues are: I spoke an unbearable truth, and I made a typographical error.

Pretty much then, you have nothing of substance to contribute to this discussion, right? You just don't like being cornered. Well, carry on acting like the little mouse that you are.

"But stillllllll.....there should be a 10/10 split, with a 50/50 ratio for subs on every team out there! There should also be an even number of male and female coaches for every division, and exactly a 50/50 split for all DBC boards and events committees!"

This is unbelievable. Ok, here it is. I'm a guy, and I have NEVER had a problem with the REAL female athletes on my team. They "get" sports. I have as much respect for them as any guy, and they always set a superb example to be followed. They're athletes.

They understand the need to be fit.

They understand the selection process (which for the uninitiated means you either cut the mustard, or you're out.)

They understand coaching, and who the boss is on any team.

They understand teamwork, and commitment.

Women, b!tch me out if you want to, but from what I've seen -and YOU female athletes have a problem with them too- it's the scrawny little office workers who never really did much in the way of sports as a kid, who come on to the boat and think that they're still in charge, who are the real problem in all of this. They run their mouths, and figure that they're entitled to say as they please, and play as they please, because they're the supervisors at their respective jobs.

In ANY other competitive sport, they'd be shut down by their team mates and coach, and thrown off immediately.

Not in dragon boat, though.

This problem has been allowed to perpetuate, because db it's an easy sport to learn, and it attracts the non-athletic, and undisciplined. Those adults who have not been indoctrinated into the sports culture as kids, come in to this world, and make waves for those who understand how the game is played.

THAT is the source of all of this frustration. I mean just look at it! Look at the posts! You don't at least acknowledge the frustration here?? People who've been into sports their entire lives, are frustrated out of their minds by others (and yes, that means women, too) who don't get it, come on to a team and pretentiously assume controlling positions within team management, or otherwise just sound off as though they're still at work, and have authority.

'Know what? I'm the boss at work.
'Know what I do on my db team? I shut my hole, paddle, and take coaching from a guy half my age. I don't talk back to him, nor to the team captain. I do what I'm told, because I'm not the boss, here. If ever I should be asked to assume a leadership role on the team, then things will be different. Until then....

That's sports, folks.

^^^ I think you may have some issues. Have you considered seeking some professional help to deal with you repressed rage? Its okay everything is going to be all right - just let it ok - just let it out - those women wont hurt you anymore, everything is going to be ok.. hush, hush..shhh ..shhh

Ok just picture the 9:44PM rant coming from George Costanza - it fits so well "George is getting really upset!!!"

Seriously dude, medicate yourself.

Actually... it wasn't a rant at all. It was written rather calmly. Doesn't matter to me, because I'm ducking out after this.

Hey, these women don't do me any harm. I just quietly tell them to behave themselves when they start getting yappy, indignant, and unsportsmanlike. I suppose the fact that I look as though I could crush the life out of them with one arm helps a bit.

However, all you've done is to mock, and make light.

How about refuting what I've written here? Care to write anything intelligent? I've tried.
I've done my level best to offer an explanation for all of the frustration I've seen in my corner of the dragon boat world, and certainly on this forum. What I've written bears out my experience.

All you've done is to be smug. The George Costanza comment was cute. Now try being literate. Both of you, the last two posters, bear a greater resemblance to chimps # 1 and 2, a.k.a. "See no Evil", and "Hear no Evil", than intelligent humans.

Go ahead. Give it a shot. Make your case. Got any ammo? Are you going to deny that pretentious office workers find a haven in dragon boat to -metaphorically speaking- flex their tiny muscles, and exercise their tiny voices, and that this doesn't get on people's nerves?

Ah! I just clued in. Both of you are exactly the sort of people I've just described. Ok, well, in that case, don't bother writing back. It'll just be the same rubbish, anyway. I won't read it, because I have no respect for you. Female athletes -no matter what their size- I respect, because they work their asses off, and they earn it. 'Some mighty fine women out there. You office divas.... you've got nothing. You demand respect, and yet you show none. Get lost, already.

Maybe I should emigrate to Canada and take up canoeing...

North America is further ahead when it comes to women in sports (although not perfect as some of the men on this forum have illustrated) , lucky for you. But not everywhere is that far. Unfortunately, it seems that the progressive thinking that helps stimulate women to go further in sports in North America is not in place in many European countries. This is especially so in Eastern Europe where many female competitors while being given chances to compete in women's teams, are seldom given the opportunity to go further in coaching or sports management positions. Of course, we're growing and working on that but it will take a lot of hard work and probably another generation before that really changes significantly.

As for recent stats on what I stated before about women being under-represented in high positions in our own sport, here's a list of Presidents of National DBF's in Europe:

EDBF: Male
GB: Male
Czech Republic: Male
Austrian: Male
Slovakia: Male
Russia: Male
Belgium: Male
France: Male
Spain: Male
Italy: Male
Netherlands: Male
Norway: ? (used to be female)
Denmark: Male
Poland: Male
Hungary: Male
Ukraine: Male
Moldovia: Male
Estonia: Female
Germany: Female
Finland: As far as I can tell, Male
Bulgaria: ?
Ireland: Male
Slovenia: ?
Turkey: ?
Iran: ?
Sweden: ? (used to be male)

(This is public information gathered from the IDBF, EDBF and national federation websites. It would be interesting to see if this sort of representation is also true of officals in our sport.)

Note this from the IDBF Constitution: "The IDBF shall allow no political, religious or racial discrimination. International Championship Regattas shall only be held in countries and territories which guarantee unhindered access to those representing Member Associations."

So, what does that imply about sexual discrimination? Of course some of the men who feel threatened by women will trot out the old argument that there is a women's class, but not a men's class, so there is discrimination. Okay, so institute a men's only class (which in many cases is what an open team ends up being by default), seems fair to me (unless all of a nation's funding goes into only the men's class and not equally into the women's class in order to guarantee equal access to the sport to all).

Also, as one of the few female coaches in this sport in Europe, I have faced a lot of discouragement even from other women who simply expect that female + coaching = failure.

Guys, maybe you should walk a day in another woman's stilettos. Then you would know why we are grumpy.

Actually pal I have written intelligent responses, only to be called "granola boy", or to be told I write like a woman, or whatever.

As for your rant regarding office geeks infringing on your attempt to recapture your past atheletic glory, please you have slid way off base.

This thread started with a question, why don't we go to a 10-10 rule to be "fair".

The reasonable response was the 8-8 rule is a fair balance to ensure we have a relatively even gender split in the boat, while allowing coaches/captains the flexibility to complete the somewhat difficult task of filling a boat for each and every festival.

The UNREASONABLE response has been filled with sexist venom, with accusations of a "typical female mentality", shooting their mouths off about things they know nothing about, and then crying "double-standard" when being told that using terms like "typical female" , "beeyootch", and "babe" show them to be Misogynyst pigs.

And now you have decided to go on a rant about office geeks taking over your sport, and demand that I engage you in this debate? Whatever, seems pointless as you are ducking out of this anyways. I have participated on many, many team sports for many many years. For the past 10 years, dragon boat has been my sport of choice. My team is made up of people from a variety atheletic backgrounds, but we ALL share one thing in common, we all work hard to both on and off the boat, and our results have been quite positive. Maybe you need to form your own team to suit your personal needs. Ex-jocks ONLY. Mandated gym sessions. Daily affirmations telling you how great you are...

So in conclusion:

Female/Male athletes that treat the sport seriously or at least don't try to force some type of agenda on it = Good

Sh!t disturbing feminists = Bad

also;

mindless misogynsts = bad too

What interesting times in which we live. Just like during the times of the witch hunts.

If you dare to say something that the pretentious, haughty, on-the-spot rule makers disapprove of, you're branded a "MISOGYNIST".

Hatred of women = misogynist (well... that's valid);
Disagreeing with a woman's opinion = misogynist;
Being frustrated with neophytes who presume to bend the rules of sport to their will because they feel entitled to = misogynist;
Expressing an opinion to SUPPORT women, but in a way that some woman just might not like = misogynist;
Wanting to win an important final, and putting in some bull-stud who weighs 200 lbs, with biceps of steel, in favour of some petite office cutie who weighs a buck, five = misogynist;
Being male = misogynist.

So annoying. What a way to do business.

being a complete dumbass = msogynist.

er, actually no. just means you're a dumbass, dumbass.

"also;

mindless misogynsts = bad too"

Apparently, mindless misogynists = guys who have had it up to their eyebrows with shrill, nagging, feminists who feel they can do no wrong, and that as wimpy, weaklings, have a right to dominate the sport.

Most guys grow up playing sports in the park, or schoolyard, and learn an understanding of things pretty quickly. Even as a kid, you know that if you want to be picked first, you have to eat your veggies, grow up strong, and be reliable, and dependable at your game. That way, the rest of the kids will know you as someone who's earned it, and respect you for it.

Apparently, this lesson has been completely lost on the girls who used to play with dolls, and do things other than play team sports. Now they're involved in a sport where you put a paddle in the water and go, and they want things their way. Guys are left scratching their heads, and wondering what the hell they're all about.

Do you understand the frustration now?

Oh, and for daring to express this opinion... I'm a misogynist.

"being a complete dumbass = msogynist.

er, actually no. just means you're a dumbass, dumbass."

WOW! That was a fast reply. This post, being so inarticulate, I can only take to be some sort of insult.... Ok, I guess... But geeze, do you monitor the forum, and this thread all day long at Misogyny HQ, or what? That was like, lightning fast!

I'd love to take a tour of MHQ some time. Do you all wear armbands with an insignia made up of a male washroom stick figure, with a circle around it, and line through it?

Who's your Fuhrer? (Something makes me think it's my ex. It IS her, isn't it?)

^^^ expressing your opinion does not make you a misogynst, but your contempt for women does.

You have made a lot of assumptions about the original poster based on the fact the she is a woman. You have painted any woman who inquires about a 10/10 rule as a feminist bitch. Thus you are indeed a misogynst.

"If you dare to say something that the pretentious, haughty, on-the-spot rule makers disapprove of, you're branded a "MISOGYNIST"."

No but if you use the term Feminist Bitch as much as you have, then yes you are a misogynst.

It is like saying all those blacks asking for affirmative action are ignorant ******s.

Disagreeing with affirmative action doesn'st make you a racist, BUT calling those who ask for it ******s, would clearly show you as a racist.

i didn't check the timestamp, I just replied when I saw it. no whistles, no alarms, no swastika-like armbands. just a regular guy who DOESN'T have big time women issues reading your latest diatribe and thinking, "what a dumbass!"

^^^ Hear Hear!

Now can we all move on from this sad, ugly thread.

Actually, the original poster said:

"When will dragon boating in the North Americas have equity on mixed teams with 10 women and 10 men seated?"

Thus, the implication is that the current 8/8 rule is unfair to females by not having a perfect 10/10 split and is therefore, by extension, sexist.

I'd REALLY like to do a poll of women on mixed teams and get their opinions on whether or not they feel that the current incarnation of mixed teams really is unfair to females.

I'd bet that 99/100 females would say, "Wtf are you talking about?"

"Thus, the implication is that the current 8/8 rule is unfair to females by not having a perfect 10/10 split and is therefore, by extension, sexist."

LOL - right you got it.

We made it, YAY!

"No but if you use the term Feminist Bitch as much as you have, then yes you are a misogynst."

HAVE YOU ABSOLUTELY LOST YOUR ****ING MIND!!!??? WHO IN THE HELL WAS USING THE TERM "FEMINIST BITCH"??????

In fact, you insufferable drama queen, before replying, I did a search on this page, and the ONLY reference that to that term that popped WAS YOURS!

**** ME! This is like every single argument I ever had with my ex!!! What the hell goes on in the mind of an average woman??? What ****ing planet do you live on??? You are absolutely unbelievable!!!

Wait a minute....

DOREEN!!???

A woman divorced you? I can't imagine why.

"Her (I assume her) post is the standard feminist post. Condescending, arrogant and lacking in notable material"

Right, bitch is not said here.. but it is pretty damn close.

"Well, if you notice, it was written by "Boatchik", which means that it's a "just because we're women, it doesn't mean that we're weaker" mentality at work."

"Stop looking for a free ride because you're a woman,"

"Apparently, mindless misogynists = guys who have had it up to their eyebrows with shrill, nagging, feminists who feel they can do no wrong, and that as wimpy, weaklings, have a right to dominate the sport."

right again no Bitch in with feminist, but pretty darn close

"I'M a creep?
Who's the one watching me jerk off in my parents' basement, beeyotch!!??

(C'mon baby, you know you want it... All you gotta do is ask nicely.)"

"If you haven't got the guts, then kindly refrain from engaging in sort of false bravado that women only display from the safety of their cars, or on an anonymous forum. Thanks, kindly."

"They run their mouths, and figure that they're entitled to say as they please, and play as they please..."

"Wow. You sure write like a chick"

"Wanting to win an important final, and putting in some bull-stud who weighs 200 lbs, with biceps of steel, in favour of some petite office cutie who weighs a buck, five"

What is an "office cutie"?

"Hey, these women don't do me any harm. I just quietly tell them to behave themselves when they start getting yappy"

"Sh!t disturbing feminists = Bad"

Right, whoever made the posts copied above don't have any issues with women.

Maybe you don't have to say "feminist bitch" to express feminist bitch.

Dear Anonymous poster at November 22 2007, 3:40 PM -

Well stated!

My original post was intended to spur an honest debate about the issue and perhaps try to educate everyone on why there is such an unequitable split and how might we rectify the split. I understand the 8/8 rule, with 16 as the minimm number of paddlers allowed (at least in the US). Allowing team captains and/or coaches to overload the boat with men, when women do so much to organize the festivals, run practices, keep teams and clubs going, etc. I presume, if indeed a man or a woman is in the elite category, they will paddle with elite mens or women's teams. The mixed team should be equitable.

Both a canadian and us survey would indeed be informational.

Interesting point but, i dont think the split is that unequitable.

I think a lot of teams at the rec level dont always go with 12 men / 8 women. They tend to have a harder time filling a roster and go with the bodies that they have. Having a 10/10 rule will hurt these teams. In fact at one festival last year we went with a 12/8 women to men split. If it were 10/10 we would have had to go with 18 paddlers and 2 women would have been left on the shore.

I think most reasonable men and women who have been involved with the sport for awhile would agree.

Anyways the rationale and the benefits of a 12/8 split have been highlighted a few times of this thread, you just have to weed through the "office women are ruining the sport" replies to get to it.

"Allowing team captains and/or coaches to overload the boat with men, when women do so much to organize the festivals, run practices, keep teams and clubs going, etc."

Both women and men do a lot to organize festivals, run practices etc. I don't think it is fair to say just women do that.

This just shows Cleopatra's true colours. Her language, despite her insisting that she's neutral, is loaded.

"Allowing team captains and/or coaches to overload the boat with men, when women do so much to organize the festivals, run practices, keep teams and clubs going, etc."

overload the boat with men - ah yes, 12-8 (at max), totally overloaded with men. Come on, a lot of boats are closer to an equal split than you, in your inequal-coloured classes, think.

when women do so much - because men do absolutely NOTHING at festivals, practices, or for team events. Why, while the women are hard at work, men are just sitting around, drinking beer, and generally slacking off! Sorry, I would say men take a significant part in organization for the db community. THIS is where men can't win, because if men actually do comprise more than 50% of efforts in the db community, then Cleopatra et al will say, "Well, why can't women be allowed to take on more of a role?"

p.s. May I refer you to GOW's post about how the majority of the IDBF heads are male. That means men spend more time heading up their respective communities. Uh oh, here it comes. "Men merely head up the communities. It's the women who work under the men that do the REAL work."

Sorry guys, we can win either way. Just nod, and smile.

^^^ Err, I mean we CAN'T win either way.

Hilarious. From the school of Michael Moore: Clip every seemingly hostile sentence, clip it right out of the context in which it sat, and say, "There... Look! They're so bad!"

One of those little snippets was from something I wrote, actually praising female athletes. This makes you an idiot.

You've done everything stereotypically "female", except say, "Well if you don't know, then I'm not telling you."

Now go have a good cry.

"You've done everything stereotypically "female", except say, "Well if you don't know, then I'm not telling you."

Now go have a good cry."

and yet you continue to say crap like this. No pal you can't win.

Why don't you just tell me to shut my trap like you do to the "yappy" women in your boat.

Remind me why you don't have issue with women again???

I don't have an issue with women.

I have issues with annoying, nagging, yappy little chihuahuas like you. If you had a roommate, she'd probably smother you with a pillow in your sleep.

Bloody man-hating, misandrist, she is.

"Allowing team captains and/or coaches to overload the boat with men, when women do so much to organize the festivals, run practices, keep teams and clubs going, etc."
_______________________________________________________

Okay, I am female and that truly is such a lame ass statement. Just because you helped nail down practice times, flip a few burgers or organize the parking at a festival does not mean you have earned your spot in a boat. Both require hard work and time but one does not dictate the other.

If you want to have more women in the boat the race in an all womens team.

Nuff said.

Dear Anonymous people (you know who I mean):

Please stop misintrepreting everything Grumpy Old Woman and I are saying by mis quoting and taking things out of context. Shame on you.

There has not been a single simple explaination of why teams are not truly mixed and equitable on this forum.

The inequity exists, we women, at least for now, must play by it, until more women run the show.

Why are you so afraid?

I hope the future brings more equity to the sport, with more fair play. To ever be recognized by the Olympics, this surely must be addressed.

"There has not been a single simple explaination of why teams are not truly mixed and equitable on this forum."

Stop dragging this back in! Are you actually a troll doing this on purpose? Boatchik (I assume a female) already stated this:

"IDBF rules for a mixed call for a minumum of 8 women and maximum of 12 women paddlers. Max paddlers in the boat: 20 (plus drummer and helm). In essence this means that 4 spots can be filled by males or females (or a combination)."

This shows absolutely NO male bias whatsoever! Can you grasp this simple notion?! Stop trying to see a male bias where none exists! If a coach decides to load a boat with 12 male paddlers and 8 female, that's his/her perogative! If he/she decides to load the boat with a different ratio, that's again his/her perogative!

Find me a female coach who decides on boat seating. How does she load a boat for races? Will she always choose a 10/10 ratio? If so, good for her. If not, then ask her WHY NOT.

For the countries with female IDBF heads, what have THEY done to make the boats 10/10 split? Have they enforced this rule? If not, why not?

Look to your own females who are in charge of teams, and ask THEM why have they not enforced or encouraged a perfect 10/10 split.

"To ever be recognized by the Olympics,"

So naive!!!!! I will never happen!

^^ You certainly will never happen with that grammer.

^^ grammer

You receive an 'F' for both your spelling and failed attempt to point out another poster's mistake.

Thank you. I'm sick and tired of reading this. Top teams already recognize the fact that they have 8/8 rules to work with and to fill the rest of the seats with the strongest paddlers, either male or female. There are plenty of awesome female paddlers out there who I would gladly sub in over some male paddlers, but they are few and far between. For the ones complaining about equity, what have you done or other "females who lost a position due to their gender" done to make yourself valuable enough to deserve the spot? Can you compare yourselves to those strong female paddlers? I highly doubt it. If I could fill a boat with all female paddlers who were stronger than all the males, I would gladly do it, just for the win.

Recognized by the Olympics? What sport in the Olympics now has teams that are required to be both men and women? Most sports have categories of all men and all women. If dragon boat was ever in the Olympics(a far way off), it would have an all men category and an all women category. I think this might be a better situation in festivals too if not just because those who get cut from their team would stop blaming a rule and actually try and work hard and make the team.

"Please stop misintrepreting everything Grumpy Old Woman and I are saying by mis quoting and taking things out of context. Shame on you."

Oh... poor darling. How dreadful to be taken out of context!

"There has not been a single simple explaination of why teams are not truly mixed and equitable on this forum."

Yes there has. Numerous times. Here it is once again, because you seem to have missed it the first 400 times it was stated:

THE RULES STATE THAT THERE MUST BE AN 8/8 MINIMUM. THIS WAS DECIDED BY GREATER SPORTS MINDS THAN YOURS. THE REMAINING 4 POSITIONS -BY COACHES' CHOICE- ARE USUALLY FILLED BY MALES WHO ARE RELATIVELY STONGER THAN FEMALES, IN ORDER TO GAIN AS MUCH ADVANTAGE AS POSSIBLE.

There. It's a ****ing race. A competitive sport. Coaches want to win. What can't you get through that thick, female skull of yours. (Oops. I'm a misogynist!)
I still hold true to my experience, that princesses like yourself (Cleopatra... Gee, I wonder what YOUR self-image is!) are the people who are murdering this sport.

This whiny **** doesn't happen at the "Y", in a pick-up basketball game. It doesn't happen in co-ed hockey, or softball.... Nobody whines like the princesses of dragon boat. Why? Because it's an easy sport to get into, and requires no childhood experience. Thus, all of the office princesses join up for something to do, and then feel they have a voice.
Conversely, experienced female athletes who join hockey, basketball, etc., usually STFU at the beginning, and look around to get the lay of the land. Nobody runs their ****ing mouths like db princesses.

As well, stop confusing gender with sex, and equity with equality. Each are completely separate and apart. Look 'em up if you aren't sure of the meaning.

6 more posts (after this one) before we beat the Outer Harbour Women's thread before it was locked!

Together, we can all help to make this happen!!

Good point.

Wow! When I (a misogynist)logged on yesterday at this time (making me a misogyinist), there were only something like 75 posts (the word "posts" containing two "s's", as does the word "misogynist"). Now we're up to .... er, a lot. (notice the "o" in "lot", and the "o" in "misogynist"). I guess the world is full of misogynists! (Note the "misogynist" in "misogynists").

"I hope the future brings more equity to the sport, with more fair play. To ever be recognized by the Olympics, this surely must be addressed."

This confirms what I've believed. "Cleopatra" is an 18-19 year old kid, who has just completed her first year of dragon boating. Now, after one year, she thinks she knows what the hell is going on in the sport.

She started this whole thread in earnest, being completely naive to such concepts as "strategy" (i.e. coaches employing their strongest paddlers, instead of their weakest. Boy, that's some complex strategy!), and actually believing that dragon boating could ever be recognized as an Olympic sport.

Sweetheart... your efforts are admirable, but truly, you have no idea as to what you are talking about. Frankly, you're so clued out it's doubtful you could find your own ass with both hands, and a map. Do some more time, and see how things actually work, before you go firing your mouth off.

You think this thread is about hating women. It's actually about hating skinny-ass, chicks with a sense of entitlement, who think that they deserve respect just by being here. Maybe it's true at school, or work, but in the world of sports, you have to fight for every ounce of respect you get. You obviously have no idea how hard guys have for fight for it every time they take the field, or the court. What's more, they've been doing it since their days in the schoolyard. It's nothing new. We accept it as the way it is. You seem to expect it just because you show up in your fabulous spandex shorts.

No man will ever give you the respect you want under those conditions. To get it, you have to be one bad-ass paddler; a woman whom the team is grateful to see show up at a meet, and someone who is a leader in her own right, and who genuinely makes her team better just by her being in the boat. My team is filled with those kinds of women, who are superb specimens of fitness, and competitiveness.

I would just love to hand you, and all those like you over to them, and watch them beat your asses silly. You think the men in this thread have been hard on you? The women are far worse. The women on the national team are killers. They've worked hard to get where they are, and wouldn't tolerate your weak, prissy attitude for a second. That's how it works, Baby. Better get used to it.

***snicker***snicker***

Chances are Cleopatra and I disagree on the "fairness" of the 8/8 rule. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as it gives flexibility to me as a coach.

On the other hand I agree with Cleopatra wholeheartedly on one thing: she does point out that many times in the world of sport (as in many other worlds) there are still many conditions that favour men and there is still a long way to go. If that weren't so, I wouldn't be grumpy!

Cleopatra, choose your battles wisely and keep on fighting. One day, hopefully, balance will be achieved.

I have to say that I find this, andsome previous threads regarding men and women on this forum extremely sad.

While I disagree with Cleopatra with her view points on fairness regarding the 8/8 rule, I cannot belieive the sexist vile that has come out on this forum in response to her post.

She has an opinion that the 8/8 rule is unfair to women. That is her opinion, to which most of us disagree. Fair enough, we are entitled to disagree with her.

Many of you have dragged this out to be an all out war, with "skinny office chicks" vs. the "real athletes". It is beyond ridiculas. The choice of language throughout this thread show how little respect many of you have for women out here.

Then you say, no I respect women, as long as they are either, A) real athletes, or B) keep their mouths shut. So what they are entitled to an opinion AS LONG AS THEY FIT INTO YOUR VIEW POINTS OF WHAT A REAL ATHLETE SHOULD BE?

The term Misogyny has been thrown around this thread ad nauseam, and has clouded the issue. I don't think many of you overtly HATE women, BUT many do certainly carry a lot of prejudice against women who do not fit into what YOUR defintion of an acceptable female should be within the sport.

Regarding the banter about equity and double-standards, I think, the current rules within dragon boat are FAIR TO BOTH SEXES. On another thread, many have complained that having a women's only regatta, or allowing women to compete in the open category and preventing men from competing in the women's category is an unfair double standard toward men. As a man, I could not disagree more.

The "open race division" and the "women's race division" were not created for the sake of segregating men and women within the sport alone. They were created to build a level playing field.

The reality is the women face a physiological barrier that prevents them from being equal to men in sports. Simply put, all things considered equal, women are not as physically strong as men.

The only way women can compete on a completely level playing field is to compete against each other exclusively. Yes, there are many women who are much better paddlers then some men. They are the very best of the best though. An average woman will have to work MUCH harder then the average man to achieve the same result.

Men have a natural physical advantage to women, so preventing women from competing in the open category by regulation, would be completely redundant.

Having a mixed category with an 8/8 min. in my opinion is a wonderful compromise to ensure that we have a relatively equal combination of men and women on each team, while giving team captains the flexibility needed to manage their rosters.

Did your wife make you write all that?

Give it a rest already. This kind of rough talk is par for the course in ANY sport. As a man, you should know how hard guys bust each other's balls on a minute-by-minute basis. And I'll tell you something else, sweetie, on my team... it's the WOMEN who do the ball busting! The guys are afraid to get into it, because of how beaten down we all are by the political correctness of the sort that you find in the indignant, protest-posts against all of the evil misogynists who've written to this thread.

The WOMEN on my team are rude, crude, vulgar, obscene, and never give a guy an even break.

And you know what we do about it?

We laugh.

That's how reasonable people deal with that sort of thing. The unreasonable ones, like yourself, huff, and puff, and chuff, and become indignant at this sort of rough treatment.

Here's a solution: Grow a thicker skin. Stop being a wimp. Suck it up. There are still laws to protect against physical harm. A little rough talk on an anonymous forum never hurt anyone, and for the two -possibly three- women who've actually written in protest... they can toughen up, too.

(But seriously, did your wife make you write all that?

Dude, you really are sexist. "Grow a thicker skin" and accept the "ball busting" for being a sexist, and just move on, move on.

Deal with it, Shirley.

who is Shirley?

Shirley you jest.

I assure you, I'm quite serious.


And please don't call me Shirley.

146 comments and this thread hasn't been locked yet.

Damn.

Why SHOULD it be locked? Because people have opinions?

Because some of the opinions expressed might be perceived to be representative of the broader dragon boat community (although I hope not), rather than just the frustrations of a couple (maybe one?) of guys who feel threatened by the loss of their traditional entitlements.

^^^

Or conversely, the few females who feel threatened by the perceived lack of equal representation, which is undoubtedly a prelude to the removal of women's suffrage, slavery in the household, and relegation to the back of the bus.

Oh, and a return to being dragged by the hair by their men on the way back from their dinosaur hunting trip.

This conversation 20 years ago: "Wow man, that sounds like apartheid to me!"

This conversation today: "Wow man, that sounds like misogyny to me!"

And for our Quebec friends, this conversation 20 years from now: "Wow man, that sounds like reasonable accommodation to me!"

"...might be perceived to be..."

Exactly. If there's a danger that someone MIGHT PERCEIVE something, then heavens to Betsy, we must extinguish it immediately.

Do you know how many people read this forum? And in how many countries? Ask yourself why this thread, and all others like it go on so long.

Answer: Because people -males AND females- are FED UP. Fed up with "entitlement", and inflated sense of self-worth, and "self-esteem issues". I have female teammates -real jocks- who have expressed to me their own exasperation with the BCS issue, while I sat there stunned, for example. It's all been said a thousand times. Just take your head out of your ass, and read it.

This camp is divided between those who have EARNED it, and those who DEMAND it. Those who go about earning it feel threatened -and rightfully so- by the whiners who fill this sport. It's an "Oprah/Dr. Phil" world, whiners have a voice as never before, and all of this frustration is the resentment that comes about as a result.

start the circle jerk already. High 5

wanker.

"start the circle jerk already."

You know, I'm convinced that this has to be a chick. Chicks always make reference to "jerking off" in one way or another. They're utterly fascinated by that process. Well sweetie, too bad you'll never know how fun this actually is. I would recommend a good therapist to deal with your issues of penis envy, however. If not, you could end up like Old Dyke. Look at how angry, and frustrated SHE is.

"Because people -males AND females- are FED UP. Fed up with "entitlement", and inflated sense of self-worth, and "self-esteem issues". I have female teammates -real jocks- who have expressed to me their own exasperation with the BCS issue, while I sat there stunned, for example. It's all been said a thousand times. Just take your head out of your ass, and read it."

Okay so you are the jackass who slagged the BCS teams as well. Makes sense now.

Buddy, get over yourself, the world was not meant to revolve around YOU.

"THE"...?

Dude, you figure it was one person, eh?

So you must be the "See No Evil" chimpanzee. Wake the **** up!

"Okay so you are the jackass who slagged the BCS teams as well. Makes sense now.

"Buddy, get over yourself, the world was not meant to revolve around YOU."

(Let's see, should I just roll my eyes, or have a little fun with this idiot...? Hmmm, what kind of mood am I in? It's late, and I am a little tired... Maybe I should leave it be. But it's just so tempting. After all, it only makes sense to him NOW.... I mean, talk about slow on the uptake.
Also, he -or maybe even SHE- is implying that I think that the world revolves around me. What does this even have to do with anything? How did what I said in a previous post suggest that I feel that the world revolves around me? Is it that people are so filled with rage, and hate when they read, that the words they see somehow get scrambled in their teeny brains?

Hey, maybe I should put a call into Pud Puller, illegitimate hate-child, and fruit of my loins. I wonder what he would have to say. I haven't heard from him since waaayyyyy back in this thread.

PUD PULLER.... I SUMMON THEE! MAKE THY PRESENCE KNOWN! OMMMMMM-MMMMMMMM

PUD... I'M TOO TIRED TO TAKE ON THE WORLD THAT REVOLVES AROUND ME BY MYSELF. IT'S TIME FOR ME TO GO TO BED, AND WE NEED SOMEONE ON THE NIGHT SHIFT....

Dude... I'm flashing the big pud in the sky. 'Got it in the searchlight, here. Holy crap, look at the size of that thing! Hee, hee, hee... it's enormous. Ha, ha...wheeeeee! That's hysterical! "Hey, lookit meeee... I'm giant pud-man. I have a giant-" Ok, but seriously, feel free to jump in, any time.)

"You know, I'm convinced that this has to be a chick."

Shows what you know! What woman, who isn't British, ever uses the word "wanker"?

The problem with guys like you is that you stereotype everyone. Disgaree with you? Well, you must be either a "chick" or some pu$$y whipped Moma's boy.

Well, wrong and wrong. As usual.

Guy, you make guys look bad. Your membership card to maleness is revoked.

Spaz.

Please every relax a moment for me. Yes, it is I, Diego from great country Mexico again. In my country, men and women have the right to say what they want. Say it if you want to, but in my country men and women also love each other chico/chicas. There is not need for all this hating, unless of course your are gay, in which case it is also ok! Not for me Diego, but if you ok.
Talk it out, no need to get angry, you just have opinion differences and then you will be ok.
OK?

Ok, i forgot to sign myself. i am Diego Montoya. Thank you

"Shows what you know! What woman, who isn't British, ever uses the word "wanker"?

The problem with guys like you is that you stereotype everyone. Disgaree with you? Well, you must be either a "chick" or some pu$$y whipped Moma's boy.

Well, wrong and wrong. As usual.

Guy, you make guys look bad. Your membership card to maleness is revoked."


Nice try. You sound like a chick trying to pass herself off as a guy, to me.
Either that, or you've got problems I think you should really talk to a good therapist about.

In Mexico, we have good therapist too to give good times. Tequila is the name. Try some, and you will feel better too!
I remember to sign this time.
Diego

Troll
Sorry I missed your signal, but I was busy pulling my pud. I agree with buddy, the World was not "meant" to revolve around you, but the reality is that it does. Of course I don't quite understand how your comment about BCS identifies you as the slagger.

I had given up on this thread as it would appear that no one in either camp is willing to listen to logic and dismiss valid input in favour of the inflammatory clap-trap.

"Troll
Sorry I missed your signal, but I was busy pulling my pud."

And there's nothing wrong with that...


"I agree with buddy, the World was not "meant" to revolve around you, but the reality is that it does."

Awwww, see, now you're just sucking up. (Tee, hee.)


"Of course I don't quite understand how your comment about BCS identifies you as the slagger."

I KNOW! I was going to jump all over that!


"I had given up on this thread as it would appear that no one in either camp is willing to listen to logic and dismiss valid input in favour of the inflammatory clap-trap."

There you go! As illustrated by the poster who accused me of slagging the BCS teams! Nobody reads anymore! They see the odd inflammatory word here, and there, and completely miss the context.
(Say, that was a pretty quick response to the "Pud Signal". You've really got your eyes out. Then again, a 190 foot pud in the sky is pretty hard to miss.)

I was thinking about this issue last night. Actually thinking, not reacting to someone else's words.

Consider this: all racing classes aside from Premier Open are artificial. All other racing divisions have restrictions based on age and gender, only Premiere Open doesn't. So really, it shouldn't be called "premiere" because you can be over 40 and still race it, but anyhow. (Maybe there's a minimum age restriction, but I'll ignore that for now).

So the Mixed racing class is artificial. Nothing FAIR about it. Fair would be Open. That is, pick your best 20 paddlers; male, female, old, young and let them race. So 12/8, 10/10, 8/8, it's all an arbitrary setting and as such UNFAIR. So there's no point getting uppity and stating that IF teams wanted to they could race 10/10 within the current rules. They won't. If the rules were REALLY fair and we picked based on ability, most would race 20/0, or close to it.

So it's UNFAIR. So what? Well, the "what" is that if you don't have some kind of rule you don't have the mixed racing class. And by and large, any time you set the bar to a minimum of women then most teams will race with that minimum because by and large men are simply stronger, pound for pound than women. It's not even worth arguing about. There will always be exceptions to this, there always are a few, but they will be...few.

If we really wanted a true Mixed racing class where teams would paddle 10/10 you CAN'T make it voluntary, it has to be mandated within the rules as a MIMUMUM 10 women.

Some of you think this is UNFAIR and that if women worked harder they would make the cut and be in the boat on merit. I say that's crap. Take the argument to the extreme. Fair would be Open, and Open would have very few women in the boat. The Mixed racing class would either cease to exist or it would be a joke. Corporate sponsorship would probably dry up as well, but that's another argument.

All that said, the current rules, UNFAIR as they are, are at least a decent compromise. I think the sport would have more credibility with an enforced 10/10 rule for the mixed class, but there doesn't seem to be a need or a real drive behind this idea. Australia tried, and failed to swing the IDBF in this direction and I don't see any groundswell of opinion resurrecting the idea.

from 11/21:
Some facts for Grrrrrumpy Old Woman:

The Executive Director of DBC is a woman.
The Director General of Canoe/Kayak Canada is a woman.
The 2007 coach of the Canadian Premier mixed and men's teams is a women.

Just a few examples...


No wonder we got our butts kicked in Sydney in Premier.

Just goes to show you what happens when you have a bunch of folks in the boat who don't listen because the coach is a woman! Or maybe more women should have been in the boat and then you would have stood a chance!

C'mon... I'm waiting for the next brilliant comment (not that mine is much brighter, but of course, I can't help it because I'm just a stupid, inferior, weak, incapable woman).

Idiot.

Oy...

His post was dumb, but GOW, yours was dumber. Do your side a favour, and only come back with a reply if you have something at LEAST only slightly more intelligent to say.

Minus 1 point for the ladies.

"Just goes to show you what happens when you have a bunch of folks in the boat who don't listen because the coach is a woman!"

Jackass of the year.

Figured if that didn't shut this thread down, nothing else would.

It was worth a try.

Now just shut up and get back to training!

Wow.

What's WITH you...? How do you go from expressing thoughtful, albeit controversial opinions, to something as eccentric as this? You can do better.

And enough already with this haughty, and pretentious notion that all threads that are controversial must be shut down, lest somebody's delicate sensibilities be offended. Fight back, for God's sake. By turning your indignant nose up, and demanding that the thread be shut down because YOU don't like what's being said, just perpetuates a stereotype. You all keep singing the same note: "misogyny". Oof, man... enough already with that word. I honestly think it's become a parody of itself. I don't know if anyone on this forum will ever take it seriously, again. It's been sung to death; WAY overused!

Demanding the thread be shut down.... well, such is the tyranny of political correctness, eh? So quit fooling around, and say something intelligent, already.

"... quit fooling around, and say something intelligent, already."

You first.

(Sigh...)

...frickin' head full o' marbles.

^^^ yeah, must have been a stupid broad who wrote that one.

See what happens when we let them out of the kitchen, they start writing stupid crap on the internet.

Oooh, good one off of "Trent Hills DBF" thread.

In response to "someone" complaining that the reason they're lacking teams for this festival is because of the 12/8 rule:

"Aw, fer ****'s sake... Just ignore the bimbo. See thread -with all 171 posts- entitled "Women", started by some other bimbo by the name of "Cleopatra" (fancies herself a queen, I suppose), about the same ****. I've known this type for years. They show up, and immediately want to start bending, and shoehorning things into their own political philosophy, not knowing anything about the sport.

****ing female university students, with pierced noses who think that because the rules say "minimum 8 females" that it's unfair; that everything should be equal. The reason WHY it says "minimum 8 females" they care not. They don't do sports as most others do. They join up with a db team because it's an easy skill to pick up. Ignore them. Hopefully, they'll just buzz off like the annoying pests that they are."