Tired of scrolling to the end of the other thread, who has the Orlando times and what kind of course, conditions were there? Then we might know how good this TECO team is.

According to the GWN site, results should have posted today: http://www.gwndragonboat.com/default.asp?id=139&l=1

Times were in the 2 teens for the 'A' finals mostly. There was a varying headwind throughout the day. Don't think there was much lane bias but the whole race course seemed a bit shallow to begin with.

GWN has not posted the results yet.....get on it if you are reading this GWN staff!!

Very fair racecourse & good viewing oppportunity...except Disappointing you couldn't see the starts easily. Would have been nice if Disney had put up a huge autotron.

Only heard one or two complaints all day about the starter not responding when hands went up. They ended up DQing the team, after the team raced in the next heat (which they won by the way).

2000m was a fun.

Disappointed there was no Disney entertainment through the day. You would think with all that access to Disney talent, Disney would have made a bigger deal. Even Mickey or Minnie didn't show up.

Teams really seemed to give it their all.

I honestly don't think disney had any idea what dragon boat racing was but I'll bet they do now and we'll see some of that disney magic next year.

It doesn't seem this race was supported by Disney at all.
The location was at Disney and that was about it.
But anytime you get to race in a warm weather site and can bring the significant other, then it's wonderful.

If you wanted to see the starts, then you would needed to watch the race from pleasure Island.

Finish line was close to spectators which was great. All the mix finals were close and gave the spectators some excitement.

The 2000m was fun, except for the strange request by Manayunk that boats give way if another boat approaches and is HALF a boat behind. I don't even know if they even pass any boats at all.

<<The 2000m was fun, except for the strange request by Manayunk that boats give way if another boat approaches and is HALF a boat behind. I don't even know if they even pass any boats at all.>>

That's not a strange request at all -- it's actually very much in line with the IDBF's rules for 2000-meter races. Slower boats must yield to overtaking boats.

The strangest request was probably made by some of the non-Manayunk teams, who were upset that Manayunk was using an inflatable type of PFD (personal flotation device). That request actually convinced the officials ultimately to disallow Manayunk's PFD's, which have been used in races all over North America by different teams.

There is a big difference with giving way versus maintaining a straight line during a pass. The IDBF rule is specific and only after the steerer is level with the drummer of the overtaken boat can it be considered "ovetaken". Much more different than what Manayunk was citing during the captains meeting, which was based on their "TEN" IDBF world championships experience, even though the first 2000m was held at the IDBF WCC in Rome.

All the bickering was for naught since they didn't pass anyone at all.

Is required if their drummer catches up with your cox. You've already lost 10+ seconds, so give up the racing line. Not about moving over, just staying out of the way. Fair enough.

How did they win the 2000m then if they didnt pass anyone at all? Unless the times were all within the stagger time (20 seconds) of each other that couldnt happen unless they started 1st?

So who was whining about the PFD's? Couldn't have been TECO, could it?

<<How did they win the 2000m then if they didnt pass anyone at all? Unless the times were all within the stagger time (20 seconds) of each other that couldnt happen unless they started 1st?>>


Man, there are some mathematically-challeged people on this board. I've watched many 2000m races where there wasn't a single pass.

Even if a team does not start 1st, they can easily win a 2000m without passing anyone -- especially if there is a 20-second stagger time. All that has to happen is that the team that starts in front of the winning team does not give up more than 20 seconds in the race. That's it -- unless the team that started two places ahead of the winning team gives up FORTY seconds, which is not likely (though possible).

It was TECO.

Let me get this straight. TECO complained about Manayunk having perfectly legal PFD's? And the officials caved and made Manayunk wear the bulky PFD's?

And Manayunk still won?

That's hilarious!

Way to go, TECO. You made a bunch of 40-60 year olds wear a different PFD at the last minute, and they still beat you on your home turf.

Here's an idea, TECO. Go to The Island (hint: it's in Toronto) next year and see if you can get into the C Final. We;d love to have you.

<<I honestly don't think disney had any idea what dragon boat racing was but I'll bet they do now and we'll see some of that disney magic next year.>>

Ih, you may want to read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_War_Canoes) before making statements like that. It looks like Disney has had a very similar ride for over 50 years!

"Much more different than what Manayunk was citing during the captains meeting, which was based on their "TEN" IDBF world championships experience, even though the first 2000m was held at the IDBF WCC in Rome. All the bickering was for naught since they didn't pass anyone at all."

Bickering from Honey Bear? You have no one to blame but yourself since you should have been bowing down in his presence, hanging on every word and nodding in assent you fool. Sad to see someone who competed at the highest level causing grief at a supposed low key fun Disney event....but that is par for the course with Honey Bear. Forgive him though, he needed more fluff for his web site.

who makes the inflatable type of pfd. is it that much of an advantage to use one or was TECO just causing trouble? have any other venues banned or teams complained about this type of pfd before?

<<who makes the inflatable type of pfd>>

Try googling "inflatable pfd", lazy-bones!

Nevermind. I did it for you: http://store.everestgear.com/eqstn200.html

No but it ticks me off when everyone is wearing different colored nail polish. I swear it makes them paddle faster and is a huge disadvantage to those crews who insist on wearing the same color.

We need a rule change!

<<Bickering from Honey Bear? You have no one to blame but yourself since you should have been bowing down in his presence, hanging on every word and nodding in assent you fool. Sad to see someone who competed at the highest level causing grief at a supposed low key fun Disney event....but that is par for the course with Honey Bear. Forgive him though, he needed more fluff for his web site.>>

Fluff on a website? It looks like more than just Manayunk likes fluff. Considering the history of dragon boating in Philly, the above was likely written by a member of the Philly DBA, whose own website (http://www.phillydragonboat.com/) claims that their paddlers formed the core of the team that won the Nations Cup and set two world records. But most of that winning USA team was not even from Philadelphia. And there are no recognized world records in dragon boat racing (nor are there in kayaking, rowing, etc.).

"Not about moving over, just staying out of the way."
How do you do that in a turn, when the passing boat is supposed
to take the inside lane without moving over? someone is going to have to move over.

The point is no crew was that fast where that request was necessary.
The winning time was less than half the stagger margin.

"How do you do that in a turn, when the passing boat is supposed
to take the inside lane without moving over?"

you just take the turn wide, don't cut back in sharply on the team passing you. follow along the outside of their arc.

easy enough?

i think you are stating that they give way, not maintain their normal line in a turn.

Those inflatable PFDs made the manayunk folks look really cute. They look like fanny bags with a little yellow handle coming out which matches the little yellow they had on their uniforms. A definite fashion statement as long as you were lean. I wonder if that was intended?

This is an amusing off shoot of the Orlando thread. Philly dragon boat politics ranks with the best.
"But most of that winning USA team was not even from Philadelphia."

Here is what our web site says:

"Team USA/Philadelphia Wins 2007 World Championship
First ever Nations Cup win for Philly-based Team USA....
The Philadelphia Dragon Boat Association (PDBA) formed the core of the United States Dragon Boat team that captured the Nations Cup at the International Dragon Boat Federation’s World Championship held in Sydney"

So the poster is slamming the PDBA because it said it formed "the core" of the team that won the Nations Cup. Gee, do you think maybe this is from one of the people who left the Philly team because they brought in outside people to try and win at worlds?

Anyway the facts:

USA Premier Men's team 26 on the roster

10 "outsiders":
4 from CA all who never paddled dragon boat with anyone else, 2 of the 4 raced with Philly multiple times.
3 from DC (one went to college in Philly) all who never paddled dragon boat with anyone else, have raced with Philly for years and all of whom travel to Philly to practice with them
1 from Portland, raced with Philly since 2004
1 from Pittsburgh, new to the team
1 from NYC has paddled and practiced with Philly for about 8 years

The remaining 16 and the coach all from Philly. Philly won the bid in Tampa and then organized the team and funded most of the trip for the Premier paddlers.

So the reader can decide if Philly is wrong for saying 16 out of 26 and the other efforts can be defined as being "the core" or if that the poster is just bitter they weren't part of winning the Nations Cup.

It's even more "core" when you look at the women. In the Premier Mixed gold medal winning boat 8 of the 10 women were from Philly. Similar figures for the Premier women's boat which contributed necessary points to the Cup by finishing 4th in 2 races.

And the world records???

(crickets chirping)

<<So the reader can decide if Philly is wrong for saying 16 out of 26 and the other efforts can be defined as being "the core" or if that the poster is just bitter they weren't part of winning the Nations Cup.>>

The original response was directed at a PDBA poster who was claiming that the Manayunk team's website contains "fluff". So the fluff on the PDBA website was cited, too.

Of the 20 USA paddlers in the Premier Open finals (not the subs), most were not from Philly. There's nothing wrong with competing with outside guys, especially for a national team. But what's with the "core" claim? Maybe it depends on how you define "core". It's a stretch to include the women, who were not the dominant force that the USA Premier Men were. Perhaps if your website said something like "we're proud to have been an important part of Team USA", you'd be accurate. Maybe it's just semantics.

You completely left out any explanation of your website's claim that the PDBA/USA set "world records" in a sport that doesn't even recogize world records.

TECO complained about Manayunk having perfectly legal PFD's? To the best of my knowledge, that is incorrect.

"You completely left out any explanation of your website's claim that the PDBA/USA set "world records" in a sport that doesn't even recogize world records."

As soon as we have solved the economic crisis we will get right on changing the web site to make sure the whole world isn't upset by the incorrect verbiage that has so offended you. How can we ever repent for this gravest of sins? Gee, its a sad thing you are not on our team otherwise we could have been prevented from making this catastrophic misstep. Certainly if we had your guidance we would not have posted any shred of anything that could have been even partially a false claim.

Anyway, the "world record" was something the PDBA did not think about until some dude from Australia posted that video stating it was a world record and the article came out in DBWI international number 2 (excerpted below) addressing the same issue. Note that the article uses the word RECORD, did you write to them too? So what should we say "worlds fastest time", "unofficial world record"? Would that allow you to sleep at night (like we really care) or should you just relax and stop letting your jealousy gnaw your insides?

Finally, you claim the sport doesn't recognize world records. True, but did you ever see the IDBF say there are no such things as world records? They make no statement one way or the other. Why don't you chill a bit and get over the fact that we were damn fast on that day and you weren't part of it? If we get around to it maybe we will correct the semantics but I don't think that many more than a handful of people care one way or the other about this.

DBWI vol 2. page 13.

Article title: "Worlds Fastest Times"

There are so many factors that affect dragon boat races it is virtually impossible to compare times from event to event and sometimes
from heat to heat in a single event. Dragon boat races occur on flat and moving water, fresh and salt water, man made and
natural courses, deep water and shallow, and they occur in all sorts of weather conditions. Although it is difficult to compare the
fastest crew at one event against the fastest crew at another, it is possible to determine the fastest times overall. And because of the
stringent standards imposed by the International Dragon Boat Federation (IDBF) when selecting a site for a World Championship, it
is reasonable to say that these race courses are amongst the most equal in the world......

As far as the “record” times go, the most interesting is the Open 1000m racing class. The fastest time listed belongs to the Russians
in a heat at the Poznan World Championships in 2003. The next four fastest times all occurred in the semi finals at the Shanghai WCs
in 2004. To have four different crews all turn in record times really shows the parity that is developing in the sport. The fastest final
goes back to 2002.

Getting back to the original question, the times are up and really were quite slow, 2:15.90 for the winner. TECO was a close second but they are still a slow team by the usual standards. Lot of hype not a lot of substance. Clearly a B or C level event.

http://www.gwndragonboat.com/default.asp?id=139&l=1

Maybe you should go next year. Your greatness alone will make it an "A" level event you friggin *******. Way to insult people.

I wouldn't under estimate TECO, I too was surprised they raced so well even though their paddling technique is still not refined. The slow times were attributed to the water conditions. Ask anyone that raced there.

When ever they decide to race up North and get a fair lane they'll surprise a lot of people.

Hey Philly paddler, could you be any more arrogant?

How DARE you make light of the financial crisis in order to deflect criticism of your bogus claim of owning a world record? You can change your website's fake claim in a few seconds. And to even joke that you could help to solve the crisis is beyond belief. Many people are suffering because of the crisis. Remember, it was one of your paddlers who accused Manayunk of website "fluff" (with no specific examples, of course). Now that your fluff has been made clear, you make personal attacks while feebly defending your claims with the utmost arrogance. Shame on you.

If you can't see where your arrogance is, let me start you off with one example. Even though you admit that the sport does not recognize world records, you decide that it's OK for the Philly team to claim a world record anyway because the IDBF does not take a position "one way or the other". So the Philly team gets to decide, huh? That's arrogance.

The Dragon Boat World article needs no correcting because it rightly points out that course conditions make it impossible to compare events. Their use of the word "record" -- in quotes -- indicates reservation, making it even clearer that they do not believe that there are true world records in the sport.

In Toronto Manayunk (11th overall) were almost 12 seconds slower than Mayfair and 6 seconds slower than the last place team in the A final.

That tells us roughly what we could expect from TECO.

But don't get me wrong, for a new program TECO are doing well to field two solid crews. Congrats.

4:36, At the island, mana pulled from their friends and it was not a full crew effort.

Come up to the island, gwn, or nationals (exhibition?) and find out how good you really are.

If TECO Red came up to the Island or GWN and raced with their own and so did Mana, TECO would be one level above Mana. Head to head competition with their own people will decide, not who you know or who you can recruit.

If TECO stays together and combines the top talent for both crews, they are probably good enough to compete in "B" division at both Island and GWN.

Why should TECO come to the island. All you canucks should come down to Tampa! May 3rd.

"Hey Philly paddler, could you be any more arrogant?
How DARE you make light of the financial crisis in order to deflect criticism of your bogus claim of owning a world record?"

Dude, you fell right into the trap. He wasn't make light of the financial crisis. He was making light of knuckleheads like you getting all worked up about what is on their site when the rest of the world is in deep dog doo. Philly paddler specifically said only a handful of people give a rat's rear about this.

What is your big beef anyway? I am taking it that you are from the US and Philly is a big chunk of your national team. They likely have this on their site to better promote their team's accomplishments to try and suck in sponsor money to send their team to win world championships where they can turn in the fastest time ever and raise the profile of US dragon boating. It's my understanding that no one else in the US is helping to raise money for the national team other than these local groups. Shouldn't they try their hardest to raise funds?

And here we have you all jacked out of whack because according to you there is some law out there in your mind that says the fastest time ever in a world championship can't be called a world record on somebody's web site. The purity police don't exist in dragon boating. As the philly dude said, only a handful of people care about what is on their web site and apparently the only ones getting real worked up over this specific item are people who hate to see Philly do well. In fact, Philly is probably getting a kick out of seeing how much this is driving folks like you nuts. That might just motivate them to keep it the same!

Finally, just to show you that it is all a matter of semantics a quick google search pulled up this an article from the NY Times. I am sure FISA wrote to them and they issued a full retraction.

September 22, 2002
PLUS: ROWING; British Men Set World Record
James Cracknell and Matthew Pinsent broke the world record yesterday in Seville, Spain, and won the heavyweight coxless pair title for the second consecutive year at the world rowing championships.

The British twosome covered the 2,000 meters in 6 minutes 14.27 seconds. Ramon Di Clemente and Donovan Cech of South Africa were second, followed by brothers Sinisa and Niksa Skelin of Croatia.

Cracknell and Pinsent were almost four seconds faster than the old record, set by Pinsent and the five-time Olympic gold medalist Steve Redgrave in 1994.

If I read this back-and-forth correctly, a Philly guy accused Manayunk of having fluff on their website, but he wasn't specific. So someone called out Philly for having specific fluff. Instead of admitting as such, the Philly guy tried to back up his fluff. It's great stuff, actually.

Fundraising? Why would the Philly team need to claim some wind-aided "world record" when they won the Nations Cup anyway? Until Prague, they are the top dog. That should impress sponsors enough.

According to the website and philly poster, Philly did form the core of the team that won the Nations cup, in the form of paddlers, coaching and fundraising. Just saying that they won isn't really "fluff", it actually happened. And, if you had been in Sydney, you would know that there was not that much wind and that they actually announced that the world record had been set(also dbwi did a piece on WRs which was mentioned previously). Not every sponsor who reads their website knows what the Nations Cup is, but everyone understands a world record.

Looks like there was a good tailwind in Sydney that day; here's the video of the race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MJUmT6jFQ&feature=related

The beginning of the video (while the boats are at the start) seems to show the wind. Look at the water. The US had the fastest Premier guys in Sydney, for sure, in the 500 and 1000. But this whole world record talk will always be just conjecture. If the dude with the microphone in Sydney called it a world record, that's meaningless. He is not the ruling body for the sport. we all know that dragon boating has a lot of hype.

One day a worse team than that talented USA team could break the "world record" because of current/wind. We already have seen top club teams in Canada pulling sub-1:50 times in the 500 with a tail wind. Throw in a BIG tailwind in one race one day and a new "world record" is set?

Which top Canadian clubs pull sub 1:50? Can you show us some times? The best I've seen the best Canadian mixed clubs pull is mid 1:50s and I am not aware of many strong open club crews out there in Canada nowadays that are much faster than mixed crews by the like of Mayfair or False Creek.

I personally don't think the world record title holds much value but I remember the DBWI issue stating several requirements for setting a record. It can't be on a moving body of water, i.e. river, there can't be too much wind, it must be an IDBF run event, etc. I'm not sure on this as I don't have my copy of the issue but I do remember something like this.

not to change the subject from world records, but the issue of core team is kind of funny especially when the yunks in their last two races this year recruited heavily from outside their club.

Also I read before how they accused Philly of paying people to paddle too?

It's hypricritical in my eyes.

"Looks like there was a good tailwind in Sydney that day; here's the video of the race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MJUmT6jFQ&feature=related"

Checked it out and don't see clear evidence of tailwind one way or the other. Water has slight ripples, can't tell if from tail/head/cross wind. Someone is waving a Chinese flag not the wind, the ropes on the flag poles are moving but it looks like someone is taking flags down. Looking at the boats themselves including the end where USA turns "upwind" doesn't seem to show any wind.
Agree that a ripping tail wind could make any decent crew fast enough to break this record on the right day.

the video clearly showed that it was a world record. what is all the arguing about?

"the video clearly showed that it was a world record. what is all the arguing about?"

Are you insane there is no such thing as world records in ....... what, oh we already did that beat down? Sorry.

Maybe if it was a world record by Canada the forum would be reacting differently...

<<not to change the subject from world records, but the issue of core team is kind of funny especially when the yunks in their last two races this year recruited heavily from outside their club.
Also I read before how they accused Philly of paying people to paddle too?
It's hypricritical in my eyes.>>

Philly certainly pays paddlers. And why not? They raise the money and do what they want with it. I doubt that manyunk has the money to pay for anybody yet sicne they are a new club.

As for the hypocrisy, it looks like you have it reversed. A philly poster was the hypocrite when he accused manyunk of website "fluff". So another poster pointed out that philly has website's fluff, too. That's it.

<<the video clearly showed that it was a world record. what is all the arguing about>>

and you believe everything that's posted on youtube? ok....

"Philly certainly pays paddlers."

Roughly how much per year? Is it only for the Premier men or the women too? How much money do they pay their coach?
Maybe we should keep them out of the races if they are professionals, doesn't seem fair.

Philly's doesn't pay their paddlers a salary or anything like that. They do pay for all their expenses for traveling to World Championships. The coach is not paid.

BTW, even if they were paid a salary, bonus, or stipend, that would not prevent them from competing in dragon boating. Some Olympic athletes are professionals and some are paid well by their countries depending on how their results.

"Maybe we should keep them out of the races if they are professionals, doesn't seem fair."

What would a professional team be? I've never heard of a person making a living by paddling. Coaching, organizing, etc....yes, but not be being on a team.

If you practice three or more times a week and do gym work 2 to 3 times a week, you are deemed a professional dragon boater.

oh, ok. thanks for the definition. are there some races that do not allow "professional" teams? if so, how do they enforce them. do they actually check to see how many times they practice?

Professional because someone practices 3x a week and works out in between? Give me a break. Gee I guess that now I am a professional runner, or better yet a professional eater.

Guys from Philly don't go to the event in Orlando and then criticize the teams that do. Well done Manayunk! You took some serious hardware home, it was a pleasure to be in the boat. Any time, any place, you guys are the best!

It was a nice event, great day, tremendous venue and wonderful teammates from all over North America. What a blast. And how about those youth. Way to go kids, great to see you in the photo shoot in the Magic Kingdom.

I've got Honey Bear's back, he's the BEST! Watch yours fool!

Big Bear from Canada

"Guys from Philly don't go to the event in Orlando and then criticize the teams that do."

If they didn't go then how could it have been them bringing up the two criticisms in this thread: the life jacket issue and the 2000 rules? It seems only someone at the race would know about those items.

Big Bear will eat you alive Man!

You guys have such a hard time with the Manayunk bunch, I've heard it all man! You couldn't be more wrong. I've read what you write all over the forum and there couldn't be a better group of people on and off the water. I'm sick of it. Grow up! If you're such a superior crew to this **** team why do you bother? Let them be. Your such an arrogant elitist team what do you care about some team you think s**ks? Clearly they don't.

I think you're concerned. No, I know you're concerned! No, your threatened! There's something about you paying such attention to Honey Bear. I wonder what it could be?

I know who you are! You should pay more attention to yourself and leave the good guy from Philly alone. It may bite you in the **s!

Focus man! I've got Honey Bear's back!!!

Big Bear has spoken
there will be NO reply

Big Bear is on crack or on too much Viagra...
The bears make a great pair.

Both are delusional.

I think Honey Bear is starting a second persona call Big Bear.
Maybe we should call him Care Bear instead, he does seem to care about Honey Bear.