Forum's getting boring.

Let's debate about the best technique.

Marathon stroke with that wide A frame vs. outrigger bent arm stroke.
- What is the best transfer of power to the water?

Slow power vs. fast strokes (like upwards of 90 - 100 spm!)
- Do 2 quick strokes propel the boat further than 1 slower more power ful stroke?

Fight!

Just watched this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MJUmT6jFQ&feature=related

And these guys have almost NO twist of their upper torso. It doesn't make sense.

Are the guys in this movie using more of a marathon stroke? or OC stroke?

I always thought Marathon stroke is similar to OC, lots of rotation and bent arm to make the stroke more "efficient".

And the wide A-frame stroke is closer related to sprint canoe.

Which guys are your referring to that have no upper body movement?

Btw, there are more types of styles of paddling dragonboat besides OC or marathon.

Just ask a dragonboater. They are the experts. You know the ones with 3 years experience.

The best stroke is whatever your crew can learn and master.

For a cool difference watch the Quebec Cup video and compare Beast to Hydro. Beasts seem to be very close to the sprint canoe stroke. Hydro drops their top hand very low, focuses on losts of rotation and power through the back of the stroke - not marathon, but very different.

Cool to see two very good crews doing very different strokes.

Can you explain a little more of how the Beasts' stroke is a lot more similar to sprint canoe?

Also, it seems that the top arms are different amongst different members of the Hydros. Not all of them have low top arms. At least that's what I could see from the tiny pixelated people on the screen.

never seen Beasts paddle, what uniforms were they wearing?

Most of the Beasts do come from a flatwater background (kind of hard to avoid if you live in Dartmouth!) so it isn't surprising if they bring some of that to the dragon boat.

Aren't the Hydros coached by Stan?

Look at 500m-37-sport_mixte-finale_A.wmv

Look at how low everyones top hand is on Hydro at the end of the stroke, well below the chest. They then swing the blades wide on the recovery, moving them almost horizontally before fliping up to vertical at the last second.

Now look at the Beasts, top hands never drops lower than their chests, weight stays forward, and the setup before the catch higher. As a result their stroke rate is higher as well.

Hard to know which is better but they are clearly different.

Beasts are in the middle lane in black, hydro in lane 4 in blue.

What would you say are the effects of having a higher/lower finishing top arm? And how does it end up that way? More "cranking" rather than "driving" down of the paddle?

"Hard to know which is better but they are clearly different."

I think race results clearly show that the Beasts are faster then Hydro

Well it follows that a lower top hand means a slower recovery because your top hand has to travel farther to get back in position for the catch.

Hmmm but if they dont raise their top arms that high to begin with then there isnt that problem. And what's the benefit to the lower top hand then if it slows their recovery?

The benefit to a lower top hand means you're making the paddle longer and lengthening the weakest part of your stroke (the back half. Doesnt seem worth it.

It's too hard to say what was most important when a team wins a race, their technique or their athletes? Can superior athletes overcome inferior technique? I think yes, possibly. Can an inferior athlete win with superior technique? Yep, I think that can happen too. So judging what's best by who wins only gets half of it right. The combination was superior, but technique the superior part?

Okay, theoreticals aside I think the Beasts simply have a better paddling background than 99% of the teams out there. The Hydro's on the other hand have nowhere near the pedigree of the Beasts or other teams of that tier but they still manage to compete (relatively speaking of course).

So all this chatter about the pro's or con's of a "low top hand" misses many important points. The most important being that it works for them, and they go pretty fast. Saying that it's inferior because it's not what the Beasts do is a mistake.

Lastly you can't just look at one aspect of the stroke without looking at all the other elements of the stroke, what you get here vs what you lose there, what the whole combination is intended to deliver.

Repeat after me:

There's more than one way to stroke a boat.

Thats great 10:14, how about actually saying something useful. Explain what is gained by a lower top hand vs a higher top hand, talk about torque etc. etc....thanks for pointing out the obvious idiot.

10:14, I present to you Eminem... "Nowadays everybody wanna talk like they got something to say, but nothing comes out when they move their lips, just a bunch of jibberish..."

"I present to you Eminem"

Hilarious and sad at the same time. That we quote Eminem to make an intellectual point....

But I guess it makes sense to use a reference the poster would understand.

Agreed on the Beasts experience meaning more. However, the Hydros are still very new to the top tier and leapfrogged over several top tier teams in the process. Their technique is a big part. I also submit that relative to most elite teams, the Hydros are quite likely the best combination of youth and physical ability. It looks like the age group for the majority of the team is bound within 21-32, which is significantly younger than that of Mayfair, Beasts, FCRCC and Chiro. In fact I think only the Hammerheads and Piranhas are similar in age and still within shouting distance of the same speed. What's different is the size and fitness of this team as well. Look at the engine room and they are beasts. Look at their women and you can see some very muscular and fit women. Not all mind you, but disproportinately higher numbers of the big and fit people than most elite level teams.

Hi Coach, so can you elaborate on the Hydros technique and what you think helped them rise up to their elite status?

Guys/gals we're simply trying to highlight the advantages of different types of technique used in db by these teams and the advantages of each. We all know there's more to fast team than just technique but it definitely plays a large part.

So those with actual useful technical knowledge to provide feel free to give your 2 cents...

Sure.

Their technical style fits the team. That is, they enhance the press phase through the back of the stroke to increase glide. As many of us know, this was first used by the Doug Tutty's national teams earlier this decade. The enhancement is that Hydro does this at a very fast rate. Thereby mixing the long stroke with a high rate. Essentially the best of both worlds. Something that can be best handled by what I beleive to be the team with the best mix of power (size) and endurance (youth).

Yeah, I'm an idiot for pointing out that you can't seperate the athlete from the technique, but you're the f#cking moron who thinks that talking about technique (without actually doing something with it) will teach you something useful.

Hey, have fun with that.

What's considered a long stroke nowadays anyway? It seems for a lot to elite teams the stroke has gone shorter. I used to see teams pulling way past their hip. Now seeing teams pull up to the hip seems rare. I suppose the rate naturally goes up with that.

However, there were some youtube videos online of some of the men's crews in penang with really slow rates. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up0fGAm4N6U
That's the Czechs and I suppose they are only able to pull this off because they have so much power?

We are only calling you an idiot because people have questions they want to get answers to and you are just there trashing them as you continue to do. How do you know the people asking questions aren't trying out the suggestions? My guess is that you are a mediocre paddler at best since you only have nonconstructive criticism to offer as with most of this forum. Save the bashing for threads aimed at rankings and races results. Of course I just made it worse and you'll come back with some expletive filled post...

Wrong Czech video. This is it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X94RbQgyd1s

Look at 500m-14-homme-eliminatoire_1.wmv

Many of the guys in boat 4 (RTF) are also on Hydro. The rate is slightly slower then when they are paddling mixed. You can really see them pushing down with the top arm as was mentioned above and it looks like they are getting a better glide.

I wouldn't based it all on technique, RTF's sync is better than the Beasts.
Take a good look and you will see a few guys on the Beasts on the right is off slightly.

What is with that finish? I think the stroke thinks he is in a C1 instead of a Dragon Boat - too much watching the Olympics!

Lets keep focused on technique here guys. Take a look at this video of CCWC Mens Open.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xecpVWMRFFQ&feature=related

Very little rotation much more focus on positive blade angle. In regards to stroke speed it looks as though the larger the paddlers you have the slower the rate. Based on this video, I mean the smaller paddleing teams appear to have a much faster rate.

How about the U.S. Premier team in Sydney? They won the Nations Cup. So they must have the superior technique. Just do what they do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8MJUmT6jFQ (fast forward to the :49 mark to get to the real action)

Note how smooth the US boat runs in the video in the above post. The boat runs. Very efficent.

If I was starting a team today, I would teach the modified D-stroke used by Philly (the US team).

too many copy cat crews out there. Whenever there is a winning team, everyone tries to emulate them. They don't see the training and other experiences that makes them competitive.

No! You MUST talk about the stroke only. No discussion on any of the other things it takes to go fast (fitness, training, background, coaching) are allowed.

This is purely a top-hand-position discussion.

bloody troll!

The US stroke is best? Hard to tell. The US won 4 gold medals in Sydney. Canada won 21. (That's not even counting the two Golds that Canada won in the Junior division; the US didn't even send a Junior team, so I won't use the Juniors for comparison.) The US had the best Premier Open team, and also the best Premier Mixed team as a result of their top men. Canada won Gold, often by large margins, in every distance in Women's Open, Senior Open, Senior Mixed, and Senior Women. In some of the Senior races, Canada took Gold and Silver.

It's clear from these results that there is more than one stroke technique that can win a world championship.

"It's clear from these results that there is more than one stroke technique that can win a world championship."

No, no, NO! You can't say this! You added nothing to the discussion of top hand position in the stroke.

Bad Troll, BAD!

Heh...you guys are annoying.

When I paddle I usually use the top hand to move the paddle up and down. I keep my top hand either above my head or much lower down. I find that my hand position really helps me get some leverage on my stroke.

I use my bottom hand and body to the pull the blade through the water. I will either exit at my thigh or pull all the way through past my hips. I really get a lot of power and torque on the blade here.

I find that a rate of between 60 and 90 is the most effective rate for me.

Anyhow, that's what works for me. I hope that helps.


I know it is not part of this thread but I am going to be buying a new paddle for next season. Can anyone suggest a CF paddle? I do not want to spend more then $300.

This isnt a discussion of fitness its about technique. It's pretty clear that most posters have no idea what goes into the technique, they would simply rather post garbage about training, fitness, feelings ROFL

The point some of us are making is that it's impossible to judge performance by technique alone. There are too many other variables. So disecting a particular crews stroke, looking at minutae like "top hand position" without even considering any of the other elements of performance turns this forum into the kind of fan-boy b.s. I would expect to find in a PS3 vs X-Box discussion site.

Talking about technique alone is virtually meaningless.

To me, it's all about connecting to the water. Can you manage to get a good proportion of your body weight on the paddle especially in the catch at the front of the stroke. Using the core is fundamental to the stroke, which basically brings the big muscle groups into play. Your flexibility is very important, because if you cannot turn for the catch, then you tend to enter negative and have no core rotation - and therefore cannot connect to the water.

Lots of differing techniques out there and some are very effective, others not. The effective ones which gets teams into the A division more or less teaches the paddlers how to find that connection to the water. Your team may been in prime shape, with big strong fit guys and girls, but if they cannot connect their power to the water, they will get blown away right off the line.

The olympic stroke looks good and powerful.
However in Sydney the Hungarians and Slovaks, who come from olympic background, looked great, but weren't doing that good. Nice long stroke..too slow recovery.
The Canadian women closer to olympic, but with a very fast recovery, very successful.
The American's with some outrigger paddlers, looked closer to a marathon stroke and fast, won.
The Phillipine,s smaller guys, slapping the water and a short stroke, but extremely fast also did very well.

I come from olympic stroke background, but closer to a marathon/outrigger stroke and fast looked the most
successful. Smaller Asian paddlers must have an extremely fast stroke to match the bigger North American's and Europeans. We probably couldn,t effectively move to that fast a stroke.

China and the Phillipines were clocked at over 120 strokes per minute in the 200s and the start of the 500s in Sydney, they didn't drop too much below that.

I agree, depending on size the rate changes. It takes much more energy for someone who weighs 200lbs to stroke versus someone who's 150lbs to stroke holding the stroke technique constant. This is because of the size of their muscles. Marathon runners are very thin for a reason. Large muscles require enormous amounts of energy to use. Its a trade off.

The point of this discussion is to assume a very high level of fitness. This is some good discussion. Their are all kinds of issues to discuss regarding technique and anyone that says "we need to talk about the other things" just doesn't know enough about technique to add anything worth wile to the discussion.

For example: What is the consensus on head movement. I've seen paddlers almost physically get out of their seat, some stay rooted to the seat. I find I can transfer more weight to the blade of the paddle if I almost get off the seat.

"we need to talk about the other things"

I don't think that is the case, you cannot clearly say one technique is better just because the crew won. The point is don't forget about the other
factors that make a fast crew: endurance, power, timing, etc.

I've seen crews switch to marathon style stroke who did Olympic style stroke for several years. Did it make them a faster team? nope. They actually got slower. Their catch is definitely better, but their applied power for the full duration of the stroke isn't there anymore. The muscle groups needed for the marathon stroke wasn't as developed as opposed to the muscle groups they were using for Olympic style.

Everyone is looking for an edge, but it all comes down to find a technique that best suits your crew and not the other way around.

Agree
Fast as you can for your size, fitness and enough endurance strength, don't waste time in the air, & tons of speedwork, in outrigger and or dragonboat.
Go into big races fresh not exhausted from overtraining too close in.

With respect, does anyone actually overtrain in a dragon boat?

Definitely. Many teams train 3x a week. Throw in a few races over the weekend and one can be hitting the water 5x a week. Add to that the prospect of perhaps training on an unisex team too and... you get the idea. Its the coaches duty to make sure their members dont fall into a death spiral. A key day off can make a huge difference.

So who is going to Nationals? I would love to see a team using the marathon - A-Frame stroke and a high rate. Based on my experience, that stroke would be an unbeatable combination.

The best teams in the world are on the water 5-6x/week.

Or more frequently, just not exclusively in dragon boat!

Please get back to topic. When team practice 5 or 6 times per week where exactly is the top hand and how does it move?

Top arm has bent elbow. Top hand starts somewhere between in front of forhead to slightly over head.
Elbow angle fixed and top hand armpit angle fixed during first part of stroke. Elbow angle remains fixed but armpit angle closes during middle and back end of the stroke. Backend can be short (stroke ends when bottom hand reaches hip) or continue through and past hip.
Small teams need high stroke rate ( all womans teams should work on a high rating !) , very powerful teams can ( perhaps should, perhaps shouldn't), have a slower rate.
A smooth running boat is efficent , a boat with less forward movement of bodies (main mass in boat) during recovery is efficent.
An increase in power through body motion may result in more speed despite the loss of efficency , often not.
Everyone in the boat paddling the same way and in time is fast.
What ever your style , lots of practice ALWAYS makes the boat faster because paddlers get more syncronized.

Is that from Penny arcade? I love that strip.

DB technique is overrated. It's just a reason for many coaches to charge the ridiculous amount that they do for coaching. It's all about fitness, intelligent use of energy, focus and, most important of all, first rate calling during the race. If you have good paddlers, as long as everyone is in stroke it really doesn't matter they do to move the boat.

But the discussions make people feel like they know something. Just get very fit and paddle a lot.

To Mr. Cynical and grumpy,

Are you retarded?

Technique does not matter?

You don't know very much. Have you been around festivals? I coach a team of survivors. We often race against fit 20-30 old women (when there is no survivor division). More often than not we beat crews of women that are WAY more fit than us, I mean WAY more fit. Why do we beat them? Beacuse we have efficient technique that I taught them (and I'm not overpriced).

You must be some slug! I hate coaching people like you. I'm sure that you would roll your eyes if I tried coaching you, thinking that all you need to do is put the paddle in the water and pull.

You must be a real pleasure to sit near in the boat!

Learn to paddle!

Pratice is probably the main reason your team beats others - developing paddling specific muscles.
Timing is probably the second reason your team beats others.
Finally, technique is probably the thrid reason.

I'm not saying technique isn't important, but do a fair comparison.

At practice we work on technique.

This is a crew of 60 plus year old women. It's not our "adapted muscles" it's the way we paddle, i.e Technique!

You can practice all you want but if you are practicing wrong then what's the point?

Technique is BIG time important.

I think you're both right but arguing about different things. No doubt technique is important but I think all the other posters that "disrupt" the technique discussions with their comments is to bring out the point that technique alone is not enough and that one should not think that technique alone will win races. In the more beginner levels of paddling when it comes to technique vs fitness, technique will win every time. However, once you get to the more advanced/elite levels, you will probably realize a faster boat by focusing a lot more on fitness levels and less on trying to find the "perfect" technique.

The theory of diminishing returns applies to both. At some point you will have to decide where to invest your next hour of available time. Is it on improving technique or increasing fitness? Can it be both? Based on the theme of the thread it seems the answer is no. I think most contributors believe that increasing fitness in the dragonboat has a limit, and can be done more effectively through cross-training.

Fitness / technique.
Paddling improves both. Spend several hundred hours or more a year paddling and both fitness and technique get better.
Putting enough hours in in a DB is difficult so cross train doing other paddling.