who knew? dragon boat part of this event

http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/07/16/world.games/index.html?eref=rss_latest

ICF connected teams by invitation only, the below is from a bulletin on the ICF web site.
Considered a demonstration sport
Only 9 countries invited, politically interesting that the sport's originator China is not eligible with racing in Taipei.

Those invited:

CAN GER HUN JPN RUS SWE TPE UKR USA

Does anyone know anything about the Canadian representative?

10. ICF selection system of the participants: the selection will be made on the bases of the results in the Mixed Team Events at the ICF World Championships in Sept 27-29, 2008 in Poznan (Poland) with the following considerations:
- The best 8 Mixed Teams will be invited to the World Games
- Besides Europe one place will be given to each continent, Africa, America, Asia and Oceania. If these continent do not obtain places among the best 8 Teams their places will be granted by deduction from the ranked best 8 Federations in the World Championships
- 2 teams will be invited from the host CHN Taipei
- In addition we will offer the participation in the World Games for two more crews on their own expense.
Lausanne, June 20th, 2009
Csaba Szanto
ICF Technical Director

I wonder if this is in Taiwan, then do they need to do the flag catching part of the event that is often associated with dragonboating in Taiwan. I doubt it, but it would be interesting!

looks like regular boats from the picture on the cnn link, some wacky sports being contested:

Skydiving and parachuting, canoe polo, rhythmic gymnastics, orienteering, dragon boat races and korfball are among the air, land and water sports to kick off the first day of The World Games in Kaohsiung, Taiwan, on Friday.

Team Canada roster, anyone know these folks? A wide range of ages with a lot of GMs, a couple of 60 year old men.

Name Gender Date of Birth NOC Event list
ANDERSON David Men Oct 29 1980 CAN Dragon Boat
CURRY Harold Men Apr 9 1961
DOBBS Marilyn Women Nov 21 1959
ELLIS Raymond Men Mar 2 1963
HARRISON Kathleen Women Mar 27 1952
HUTTON Richard Men Feb 26 1960
JAMES Keith Men Jun 13 1957
LOHRENZ Kevin Men Dec 28 1985
LOHRENZ Peter Men Jul 31 1951
McGEE Sabrina Women Feb 3 1979
MYSKO Nicholas Men Jul 16 1968
RAMSEY Cheryl Women Jan 1 1951
RAMSEY Gordon Men Feb 3 1951
RITCHIE Barbara Women Mar 13 1966
RITCHIE Kelly Men Aug 8 1961
SCHIMNOWSKI Adrian Men Mar 25 1976
SCHIMNOWSKI Chris Men Apr 12 1956
SIMMONS Martin Men Oct 30 1949
STEBBING Jo-ann Women Oct 28 1961
THIELE Rosita Women May 16 1955
THOMSON Linda Louise Women Jan 24 1957
TREACY Jennifer Women Aug 6 1950
TREACY Micheal Men May 5 1949
WOODBECK Deborah Men Jan 28 1953
WOODBECK Norman Men Sep 26 1956
Web Information System - The World Games 2009 Kaohsiung
Copyright © 2008. All rights reserved

Mainland China does have a team entered but apparently it is a high school team, dates of birth mostly 1995! World games, ICF doing it up big with kids and grannies.

These guys are from Manitoba.

Another Jerome group.

This is the group from Manitoba that came 15th at DBC Nationals last year. I can't believe CKC keeps spending money on these guys.

There's 6 couples on the crew and I wonder if Deborah was startled to learn she is a "Men"?

You know what than mean for Norman! Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Here is the USA crew, looks like the Manayunk team mostly seniors and likely better than the Manitoba team.

ALEARDI Stephen Men Jul 17 1965
ALEXANDER Catheryn Women Dec 16 1973
ANSARI Holly Women Aug 30 1968
BINTLIFF Rhonda Women Oct 11 1961
BLUNDETTO Ashley Women Dec 22 1992
BLUNDETTO Michael Men Apr 25 1964
BLUNDETTO JR Michael Men Jul 13 1990
CALLAN-HINSVARK James Men Aug 30 1954
CHASSEN Arnold Jay Men Jan 7 1949
CRANDELL Leslie Women Jun 9 1965
EICHELBERGER Robert Men Mar 24 1975
ENGLISH Rocco Men Jan 24 1954
FARLEY Gerald Men Apr 11 1964
FELDMAN Todd Men Jul 8 1962
FLESURAS Connie Men Feb 14 1953
GAYNOR Marc Men Nov 21 1956
HANSEN Laurie Women Oct 9 1959
HANSON Robert Men May 1 1958
KETCHAM Kim Women Dec 30 1958
LEONARDI Thomas Men Nov 25 1965
LIN Jean Women Jun 13 1975
LONG Rachel Women Apr 15 1974
PASCUA Jeannette Women Jan 1 1963
SHERMAN Kathleen Women Mar 6 1964
SMALL James Men Sep 13 1957
TOOLE William Men Apr 21 1958
WEITZ Thomas Men Sep 6 1959

Wow, Kevin Lohrenz. A solid C1 athlete.

A bronze in the 2000 but 3 teams DQ'ed including Hungary.........

KOC-CNA, Kaohsiung, July 17) Russia won the two gold medals up for grabs in the dragon boat races Friday, while host Taiwan took a silver and bronze at the 2009 World Games in Kaohsiung Friday.

In the 200-meter final, Russia won gold in a time of 46.16 seconds, while Hungary seized silver in 47.06 seconds and Taiwan, formally known in international competition as Chinese Taipei, took bronze with a time of 47.14 seconds.

Teams from Germany and the United States finished fourth and fifth, respectively. A team from China that was listed as a participant in the 200-meter race failed to show up for the qualifying heat of the competition, being held at Lotus Pond.

The Russians also took the gold in the 2,000-meter dragon boat race in a time of eight minutes, 36 minutes and 16 seconds.

Taiwan took silver, finishing more than a half-minute behind the winning team, while Canada won the bronze.

Boats from Hungary, the United States and the Ukraine were disqualified for bumping into rival boats while making a turn.

Taiwan will compete in the 500-meter and the 1,000-meter races Saturday, and coach Lee Jung-wen expects more good performances.

He attributed the team's success Friday to its skill level, familiarity with the competition's rules and the local environment, and intensive training prior to the World Games.

Dragon boat is one of the five invitational sports at this year's World Games.

(KOC-CNA story by Chang Che-fon

The pride of North America gets stomped in Taiwan, USA whupped by 4.3 seconds in the 200 and Canada didn't even make the final! Canada gets bronze after several DQs finishing almost a minute behind Russia. CKC and USACK should be embarassed.


Russia celebrated its first Canoeing Gold Medal of the World Games in Kaohsiung Chinese Taipei this morning beating Hungary and Chinese Taipei into 2nd and 3rd places respectively in a closely contested final.

200m Mixed Dragon Boat Result
1. Russia 46.16sec

2. Hungary 47.06 sec

3. Chinese Taipei 47.14 sec

4. Germany 48.74 sec

5. USA 50.46 sec

2000m Mixed Dragon Boat Result

1 Russia 8:36:90

2 Chinese Taipei 9:07:88

3 Canada 9:32:38

4 Sweden 9:38:46

5 Germany 9:51:36

6 Japan 10:39:48

Seriously, who cares.

This event just like the ICF one means nothing.

IDBF Worlds, IDBF Club Crews, EDBC Events, DBC Nationals, USDBF Events, etc are really the only ones worth paying any attention to from a National or Club perspective.

There are probably 6-10 teams racing tomorrow in Toronto alone that would beat that field.

Manitoba didn't even send its best paddlers. There is so much politics and nepotism in that team as you can see by the roster that it became a joke here. I don't even think Jerome made the trip because I saw him a few days after the team left.
I think he sent his #1 stooge to run things and that guy is useless.

Looks like Canada did not make either the 500 or 1000 final, the worse performance ever by a Canadian "national" team in dragon boat. Can't call the bronze in the 2000 success with 3 DQs among few teams to start with.

Russia completes sweep of World Games dragon boat gold

Kaohsiung, July 18 (CNA) Russia completed its sweep of the four dragon boat gold medals up for grabs at the 2009 World Games in Kaohsiung Saturday, winning both the 500-meter and 1,000-meter finals by split seconds over Hungary and Germany, respectively.
Host Taiwan, which took silver and bronze in Friday's 200-meter and 2,000-meter finals, could only manage two fourth place finishes in Saturday's events, well behind the medal winners.

After winning two golds Friday, Russia continued its run of success by capturing gold in the 500-meter race in a time of 1 minute, 57.07 seconds, just ahead of silver medalist Hungary (1: 57.48) and bronze medalist Germany 1: 58.00. Taiwan was more than five seconds off the bronze medal time.

The 1,000-meter final was also hotly contested, with Russia's gold-medal winning time of 4: 03.85 barely three-tenths of a second better than Germany's 4: 04.16. Hungary took bronze with a time of 4:04.51.

Taiwan, formally known in international competition as Chinese Taipei, took fourth in 4: 26.95, while Sweden finished fifth in 4:27.00.

While Russia was the big winner in the dragon boat competition, one of five invitational sports at the 2009 World Games, Hungary, with two silvers and one bronze, and Germany and Taiwan, with one silver and one bronze each, also delivered strong showings.

(By Y. L. Kao)

No one here cares about ICF.

No one here cares about ICF.

Doubt the above, the ICF-IDBF issue does have an impact on the sport, the fact that the ICF events are so poorly attended argues that they should back off and let the IDBF run things and look for a relationship that is helpful to both organizations.

i'm sure the IDBF will get dragon boating into the olympics.

No one really cares about it getting into the Olympics either

"the worse performance ever by a Canadian "national" team in dragon boat."

Ditto for the US team.

Too bad the Russian and German teams that were at the World Games won't be competing in Prague. The Russians -- with tons are flatties -- have some kind of flatwater qualifier going on that weekend. The German team can only race in ICF events. Both are true national teams and both would have been very competitive in Prague. (Ignore the World Games times; there was a typhoon nearby that created massive headwinds, especially on the second day of racing.)

I wish the ICF and IDBF would get their acts together so that ALL the best teams can show up at the World Championships at the same time for once.

This is from the World Games site:

"No matter what the case is, each international federation has the ultimate decision to make sure the best of the best are to participate in the World Games 2009 Kaohsiung. International Federation Passport outlines the quota of athletes within each sport. Qualification details are available from each international sport federation."

So the ICF made sure the best of the best participated from Canada and the US? Doesn't sound like it from the nature of the teams that went.

"Ignore the World Games times; there was a typhoon nearby that created massive headwinds, especially on the second day of racing."

The Russians and Germans can certainly bring it with the best of them, Russia swept the Berlin golds with a team of flatties. If they were to send their best to Prague they would be the favorites. We can ignore the winning times but cannot ignore the fact that Canada and the USA got their doors blown off and the respective teams went over their wearing the national colors representing dragon boat. The spread of times cannot be ignored, these teams were an embarrassment for the dragon boat community and CKC and USACK.

"I wish the ICF and IDBF would get their acts together so that ALL the best teams can show up at the World Championships at the same time for once."

That would be the best solution but it has to be worked out at the international level.

Curious ,how did a Manitoba team get the spot ?? They did not do very well at the nationals and pretty much were beaten by most of the comp crews that raced there .

I don't even think they were top 10 which is why I'm not sure why we are even discussing this!

John Doe sends a team to some unrecognized sporting event. That team gets spanked. Not sure how that reflects badly on anyone, but John Doe. Certainly not Canada or the US.

on many levels, this thread is creepy.


especially those listing names and birthdays.

creepers.

Relax.

Just treat this as sort of the Spengler Cup of Dragon Boating.

"CKC and USACK should be embarassed"

Wow - why would they be embarrassed when both represented very respectfully at the most prestigious event ever for our sport? Do Olympic Athletes who miss the medals embarrass their countries? Hell no! Do some homework on this event. These are fully accredited World Games Athletes you're disrespecting.

Guess whoever wrote this (BM)wasn't there. Must be a bit jealous they were not at such a prestigious event. Canada medaled and the US was in the thick of it all, with a master and grand master line up and solidly in the top consistently. Other countries showed up with their professional 20 something year old teams. Great job USA and Canada! Besides, these teams are affiliated with the ICF and pose no threat to the IDBF Teams.

You should be supporting this event. It clearly helped to showcase the sport on the highest level ever and that can only help to promote the sport. Believe it or not, for the purpose of growing the sport, everything does not have to be about winning and losing. Net effect - World Games helps everyone.

Stop trying to undersell this event and overselling Prague. From what I've seen, IDBF events don't even compare. How could it. A small organization like the IDBF is simply one federation. World Games recognized 32 different federations for this and clearly 32 times the size of ANY federation's own competitions and capabilities. The IDBF serves a purpose, but it's clearly NO World Games!

But you know, this person may have a point. Opening Ceremonies in IDBF events where the athletes do a little parade in front of one another with maybe a hundred or so spectators (mostly athlete supporters along on the trip - you know what I'm Saying) is comparable to Opening Ceremonies at The World Games in front of 55,000 in the spectacular stadium, another 15,000 on the side lawns as standing room only and an estimated 200,000 additional in the streets outside the stadium greeting all the athletes from 32 different sports disciplines. Prague should have about the same.

World Games staging area just for the athletes prior to Opening Ceremonies was larger than any IDBF Opening Ceremonies I've seen.

So stop the false negativity and sarcasm towards the athletes of the 2009 World Games. Win or lose, these athletes helped their respective sport and will forever be chronicled as World Games Athletes. Funning thing though, there is little written about the IDBF in the negative, the way most are writing about the ICF and World Games. Wonder why that is BM?

"Guess whoever wrote this (BM)wasn't there. Must be a bit jealous they were not at such a prestigious event. Canada medaled and the US was in the thick of it all, with a master and grand master line up and solidly in the top consistently. Other countries showed up with their professional 20 something year old teams."

This is too funny, aren't you on the world record thread attacking BM for making an excuse that the Canadian seniors were stacked? Or are we to think that the identical posting times are just a coincidence? Of course your excuse is much better as these guys were "professionals".

yup, smells like BM to me. Look how quickly the defensive reply came in. Funny as **** (I mean BM)!

You really are an educated idiot. No excuses listed, **** for brains. Just statements about World Games being the real deal. Read the thread.

Some more factoids: Homeland security had 12,000 reps on the ground for 3 month prior to the games. Armed security at times with each team, even in the hallways of the hotels. Second most targeted terrorist event in the world. The scope of this events dwarfs the IDBF. Simply facts, no excuses.

Another fact, you were not there which leads to your idiotic negativity. Give it a break. Grow up and, for your sake, stop trumping your hand that you fell threatened by all this. It only make you look more foolish.

I forgot, It's all about you.

No one is debating that these were not valid games. I'm sure it was a very high profile event.

Just not for Dragon Boating. Give me a break. The Canadian entry was not contested as far as we know, and the team that went was like 15th at the Toronto event they went to last time.

ICF is not DB. IDBF is DB. For competitive DB event, see IDBF etc.

I don't think anyone knows what happens on race day unless they are there themselves to see it firsthand.

Our entire team watched in amazement as the coach and lead paddler for USA had his badly broken hand he received in the 2000 taped to his paddle on Saturday for the 500's and 1000. The man was clearly hiding his pain, his hand was disgusting and he took one for his team as if nothing happened. All teams took notice.

Racing was over and I watched as the Russians and Hungarians were hailing him as "World Games Hero". That was something. Only after racing was over did he get taken to the hospital.

Say what you want, but unless you were there you don't know the dynamics of what took place at World Games. Well done USA and to your coach I wish him a speedy recovery!

I don't think anyone knows what happens on race day unless they are there themselves to see it firsthand.

Our entire team watched in amazement as the coach and lead paddler for USA had his badly broken hand he received in the 2000 taped to his paddle on Saturday for the 500's and 1000. The man was clearly hiding his pain, his hand was disgusting and he took one for his team as if nothing happened. All teams took notice.

Racing was over and I watched as the Russians and Hungarians were hailing him as "World Games Hero". That was something. Only after racing was over did he get taken to the hospital.

Say what you want, but unless you were there you don't know the dynamics of what took place at World Games. Well done USA and to your coach I wish him a speedy recovery!

"ICF is not DB. IDBF is DB. For competitive DB event, see IDBF etc. "

Clearly you are entitled to your opinion. You need to be less disrespectful towards the World Games Athletes. You were not there, why would you care?

If you don't know what went on World Games and the dynamics of the event, I agree, you're are an idiot for making ridiculous statements about teams, races and the event if you were not there.

The observation made earlier that all negativity is directed towards ICF and not IDBF is glaring. There has been much negativity about World Games and you know nothing about it. This negative rhetoric makes you look and sound like a foolish bully.

If IDBF is that much more credible, then advantage you and you should be happy with that and leave others be. Why try so hard?

World Games was incredible! Too bad you were not there.

Whats really embarrasing about this is who represented Canada ! They didn't even come close to making the final at the Nationals and had we sent one of those top teams from the nationals it probably would have been gold all through for Canada .

"Our entire team watched in amazement as the coach and lead paddler for USA had his badly broken hand he received in the 2000 taped to his paddle on Saturday for the 500's and 1000. The man was clearly hiding his pain, his hand was disgusting and he took one for his team as if nothing happened. All teams took notice."


How did he break his hand in the 2000? Was there a collision?

"Opening Ceremonies in IDBF events where the athletes do a little parade in front of one another with maybe a hundred or so spectators (mostly athlete supporters along on the trip - you know what I'm Saying) is comparable to Opening Ceremonies at The World Games in front of 55,000 in the spectacular stadium, another 15,000 on the side lawns as standing room only and an estimated 200,000 additional in the streets outside the stadium greeting all the athletes from 32 different sports disciplines. Prague should have about the same."


This is a retarded comparison. OF COURSE the Prague opening ceremonies will pale in comparison to World Games ceremony. Dragonboat was just one sport at the World Games. The World Games' opening ceremonies were for all of the World Games sports.

A correct comparison would be to compare the opening ceremonies of the ICF World Championships vs. the opening ceremonies of the IDBF World Championships. Both are lame, with the ICF's opening ceremonies being lamer.

Stop bashing the IDBF's opening ceremonies. The ICF does no better!!!

Again, it's not a matter of respect. It's surely not a matter of which is the higher profile event. It surely has little or nothing to do with how good the opening ceremonies are.

The pure and simple truth is that the IDBF is the governing body for Dragon Boating. Through their organization and their member organizations are where the highest levels of competition are to be found.

Any discussion of ICF run dragon boating is laughable from a competitiveness and participation perspective. Wow, the Germans and another country or two sent top teams. Wow, the ICF head is trying to take over DB so that they can get extra government funding that they can then turn around and funnel to other paddle disciplines.

This whole chunk of BS is so 2-3 years ago. To this point I once again add. Canada and the US have absolutely no reason to feel any shame due to any DB results from this event. None. Nadda. Zippo. From the mainstream Dragon Boating community it simply did not exist. I and most others didn't even know about it until someone posted here about some silly results. Whomever represented the ICF for Canada and the US and organized these messes should feel the shame if there is any to be felt. All the power to the teams that went, but if you want to be taken seriously by the DB community then join DBC and compete against the best available at DBC events and IDBF ones if you can earn a birth.

"yup, smells like BM to me. Look how quickly the defensive reply came in. Funny as **** (I mean BM)!"

Welcome back Honey Bear it is always good to see mature postings, hope your hand is OK.

"Some more factoids: Homeland security had 12,000 reps on the ground for 3 month prior to the games. Armed security at times with each team, even in the hallways of the hotels. Second most targeted terrorist event in the world. The scope of this events dwarfs the IDBF."

This is good? Sure as heck doesn't sound like fun. And if the wife ever found out I went to a race under those conditions so long dragon boat career.... Let me see terrorists, typhoon, anything else grand about this trip?

Why didn't the coach use a spare instead of paddling with a broken hand?

"This is good? Sure as heck doesn't sound like fun. And if the wife ever found out I went to a race under those conditions so long dragon boat career.... Let me see terrorists, typhoon, anything else grand about this trip? "



Another ignorant post.

Consider: The Olympics were even more of a terrorist target than the the World Games. There was even more security for the Olympics. Would you have not gone to the Olympics if you had the opportunity because of the terrorism threat?

The security at the World Games is what helped to make it so much fun. We always felt completely safe because we knew that we were completely protected from any of the terrorists who'd like to make a statement at an international event.

The typhoon was off the coast and created high winds, but not severe enough to cancel dragonboating. The high winds were challenging and added to the fun.

"How did he break his hand in the 2000? Was there a collision?"

The USA was DQ'ed in the 2000 because of "bumping" so there had to be a collision. But the lack of an answer may be your answer as most people break their hand slamming it in anger.

"The USA was DQ'ed in the 2000 because of "bumping" so there had to be a collision. But the lack of an answer may be your answer as most people break their hand slamming it in anger."

Once again an uniformed jump to judgment.

The Germans were spearing the US with their paddles in anger during multiple collisions. US paddlers came out of it with bruises to the face and back of head, cut up hands, injured elbows and bruised ribs (including the women). It was out of control and deliberate - not your normal banging of paddles. The US did no retaliation. The team had to go into Saturday's 500 and 1000 with this.

The coach did sit out most on Saturday and used his spares. Several US paddlers did not make the trip at the last minute due to several horrific automobile accidents just prior to departure for Taiwan and the roster was skinny. Not everyone listed above made the trip. As for the list, a little disturberbing it was posted here.

So again, if you don't know the dynamics of what happened, you should not be so quick to cast judgment.

why is it every time this individual is on any thread it gets out of control?!

"most people break their hand slamming it in anger."


You have a link to that reference?

"Once again an uniformed jump to judgment.
The Germans were spearing the US with their paddles in anger during multiple collisions. US paddlers came out of it with bruises to the face and back of head, cut up hands, injured elbows and bruised ribs (including the women). It was out of control and deliberate - not your normal banging of paddles. The US did no retaliation. The team had to go into Saturday's 500 and 1000 with this."

Dude, yeah we are uniformed because we weren't there and you were. You were the one who brought up the issue so cut the dodging and just tell us how the hand was broken so we can evaluate the "hero" status. If he knocked a German in the head because they stabbed one of your paddlers then we would all accept that but you say there was no retaliation. If some German broke his hand then I would want to know how in the world the Germans were then allowed to compete and medal in subsequent events. You would think the ICF officials who ran this event and this high and holy World Games would not have tolerated that kind of behavior. Certainly this would exclude you in an IDBF event, see below.

IDBF DISCIPLINARY CODE
FOR CHAMPIONSHIP AND INTERNATIONAL REGATTAS

Threat of violence or actual physical violence
12. Any threat of violence or actual violence occurring during the period of an event between any participants will be reported to the Chief Official. The Chief Official will disqualify the person or
persons concerned and the crew from taking any further part in the competition. The Chief Official will also report the matter to the Jury as above. The Jury will investigate the circumstances surrounding the incident and make a written report to the IDBF Executive
Committee who may take further action against the IDBF Member concerned under IDBF Bye-Law 8.

So the ICF runs a world championships with Mixed racing. They also have senior and grand dragon classifications.

They've even stolen the IDBF rules and lingo.

what a load.

Yes, they seem able to steal/copy everything except the level of participation and the quality of the competition.

In ICF, the term "Senior" is the equivalent of "Open" in IDBF.

Inquiring minds want to know. How did Hero Honey Bear break his hand? C'mon we're bound to find out anyway.

"Whomever represented the ICF for Canada and the US and organized these messes should feel the shame if there is any to be felt. All the power to the teams that went, but if you want to be taken seriously by the DB community then join DBC and compete against the best available at DBC events and IDBF ones if you can earn a birth."



Shame? Let's all take a deep breath and put some perspective on how the World Games U.S. team came about.

The U.S. never had an official bid until about two weeks before the accreditation deadline in the spring. Yes, two weeks. Since the end of 2008, there had only been talk of the U.S. getting a bid. It was only when Poland decided not to field a team that the U.S. was told that a bid was available, and USACK had two weeks to put together a team. This wouldn't be easy in any circumstance, and consider:

(1) Many paddlers had already committed time and money to go to Prague. There was no funding for travel to Kaohsiung, Taiwan, for the World Games for U.S. paddlers. While there will be a few of the U.S. World Games paddlers going to Prague also, few people could find the time or money to do both.

(2) Just before the U.S. received a bid for the World Games, Bob McNamara had sent out a stern message to all U.S. paddlers, telling them that they should "show allegiance" to the IDBF. Many paddlers took McNamara's words as a warning about paddling in ICF events. Considering the power McNamara wields in the USDBF, many paddlers were reluctant to cross him. (In reality, I don't think he really cared one way or another, but I can understand if other people didn't want to take the chance.)

(3) Some people have antiquated beliefs about Taiwan being "dirty", so they weren't interested in going. As it turned out, Kaohsiung -- the city where the World Games were held -- was incredibly clean. It was cleaner than most American East Coast cities.

Not surprisingly, the U.S. team got smoked by the top teams at the World Games. But the U.S. also managed to beat several countries who had plenty of time to field teams. Whatever the case, the World Games was another opportunity for the world to hear about dragon boating -- and that's always a good thing.

As for Prague, good luck to all who are going and have a great time.

If you tell us how he broke his hand we won't call the above an excuse.

You'll find out soon enough...

Funny how McNamara threatens paddlers with his "dragon boat manifesto", disrespects USACK, the ICF and World Games, plants Ross Flemer (his right hand man) in USACK in an attempt to derail Dragon Boat USA and somehow he's owed an explanation as to how his hand was broken. What arrogance! Don't you have Prague to focus on? Worry about yourself. It's nice the Canadians noticed Coach Mike and what he was dealing with but he made no big deal about it during the Games with protests or anything and he's making no big deal about it now. Leave him be, he did an outstanding job leading the team he had at World Games. I'm not sure why you think Coach Mike, or any of us for that matter, should be accountable to you, McNamara.

McNamara should be banned from the forum and the sport. He's so focused on creating a negative image of the level of competition at World Games and the fact that USA and Canada did not fair that great. He also points out this was the worst showing of a US team.

HUUUUMMMM! Not so. You see, USA did nothing in Nottingham or Poznan. The only reason McNamara's team won anything in Poznan is because he stripped my masters team for a 200 exhibition final and CHEETED for a tainted bronze and referred to my masters team as JV! I stood and watched in disgust as he instructed the premier team to jump the start and ride the wake, same thing he did in Sydney for the Master 500 final, it's on tape. I guess he's just a better coach and his team are up for the competition.

1997 World Gold in the 500, USA barely qualified for the final and drew the outside lane that was flowing (it was tidal). Blown away all threw the event and a ride to the finish for a gift Gold. I was there, I know.

High and mighty, I think not. Bully and a cheat, likely. When you cheat and bully you lose credibility. Your credibility is long gone.

For the amount of time the US had, this team did a great job and ran toe to toe with the big boys in a premier category with a masters/grand masters team.

So give it a break.

Can you guys hold on before posting again????? I need some popcorn.

"McNamara should be banned from the forum and the sport."

Not a bad idea, maybe then the forum won't be so fucussed on the US crap. The man needs a new hobby (forum being #1 hobby, dragonboat #2)

Just to be clear, I think we are all disrespecting the ICF and their DB games. Just so we're clear.

Interesting to read that I should be banned from the forum but quite sad to read posts from supposed US "team" members pissing on the performance of their former team mates in past worlds because they can't take a little heat about Taiwan. The events in Taiwan are what they are and I have zero support for any ICF "world" event. There is a rivalry between ICF and IDBF in case you didn't notice and it is clear where I stand. When the USACK boat put on the national colors as Team USA they stepped front and center in the controversy and apparently you and they cannot take the criticism that should have been expected if the regatta or performance was substandard.

You apparently have no issues with criticizing what your former national team has done and you are lashing out because of similar scrutiny of your performance. Clearly it was your group that began the various attack threads such as "new world record in Alcan", "coach McNamara please clarify", etc. Or should we go back a few years to your posts about the "Philly house of cards" and so on? If you can't take the back and forth without blowing your gaskets stay off the forum.

Note that when you piss on the 1997 gold you are also pissing on 4 members of the USACK boat that went to Taiwan who won that gold in Hong Kong including the hero. Are these current team mates of yours happy that you think they got lucky? So the other senior team in Sydney, your then US team mates, are cheaters? The officials let them get away with it right? They somehow cheated their way to several seconds of separation in the 1000 too? Poznan has been hashed out before. If you were a man you would sign your posts so your former team mates could know who is calling them cheaters and undeserving winners.

We went over the masters as JV in Poznan before on this forum, get over it, it was 2003. I have never regretted that decision and everyone who paddles under me has always known Premier is my priority. I am glad folks like you are now in USACK as you clearly are not up to the standard of the paddlers that will be competing in Prague. The US team has an excellent collection of paddlers from Philly, CA, DC, Florida, the far northeast, the midwest and elsewhere and we will be counting on you to scrutinize every result. We can take the heat.

Your hero (who has undoubtedly posted here in his typical fashion) ran for US head coach, lost the election that he thought he had stacked against me, abandoned the organization, gave up the youth team bids that he had won, went to USACK and is now clearly on the other side. In that position he is as open to attack on this forum as I have been for years. On the other hand, while he is no longer a USDBF team mate I would never sink so low as to diminish his accomplishments when he was a team mate. He was a key player in the 1997 (and 2004) gold and regardless of where he goes in this sport no one can take that away from him. Apparently you do not have the same respect for those who paddled alongside of you in the past. Sad indeed.

Frankly, I generally find the forum quite amusing and on occasion quite helpful regarding coaching and training strategies. I have saved whole threads on discussions like the one on starts. Instead of worrying what I do or do not post here I suggest you get off the forum and get on with your life.

Dang, Bob, you took the bait. This is all too funny. Popcorn, indeed.

Do kick ass in Prague. Contrary to what you may think, we do want you to win.

" I am glad folks like you are now in USACK as you clearly are not up to the standard of the paddlers that will be competing in Prague."


Really? Then why did you invite several of the male USACK team members to try out for your team? (The invitations were declined.) And why are some of the female paddlers on the USACK team paddling for your U.S. team in Prague? Come on now, play nice.

He said YOU not everyone.

Hey McNamara, when you were done with your eloquent side stepping reply did you toss your clip board or kick over a chair? That's the problem with the forum, you can't quite get the whole you. U-tube clip perhaps?

Would you like butter with yours? Popcorn that is. I prefer mine without, it's healthier.

We watch and sometimes are very concern about the results from the fray between these two organizations. Regardless of the outcome many of us believe that if there is anyone that can bring success for the US in Prague is Coach Bob McNamara: Dedicated and scientific, Bob has given the opportunity and will continue to expand his reach for qualified paddlers without prejudice forging the best team possible to snatch the best/most medal possible in Prague.

"I am glad folks like you are now in USACK as you clearly are not up to the standard of the paddlers that will be competing in Prague."

Wow, 4 past US gold medalists at World Games which McNamara is stating should be respected, as they should be, yet he goes on to state they are not up to Prague standards. Talk out of both sides of your mouth much?

I heard this dude was an egomaniac, this confirms it. Sounds to me like he's all caught up trying to validate himself.

and the saga continues........

"snatch the best/most medal possible in Prague."

Anon,
"SNATCH", quite the choice of words...

Main Entry: snatch
Pronunciation: \ snach \
Function: verb
Etymology: Middle English snacchen to snap, seize; akin to Middle Dutch snacken to snap at
Date: 13th century
Results
to attempt to seize something suddenly to take or grasp abruptly or hastily - snatch up a pen - snatched the first opportunity also to seize or take suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right - snatched a kiss - Synonym - see take
Related Forms
1. snatcher noun

"to take suddenly without permission, ceremony, or right"

That's exactly what a sneaky cheat does and he's attempting to do it with USACK and Dragon Boat USA. His reply conveniently omitted and reference to the Ross Flemer infiltration into USACK after direct orders from him to have nothing to do with ICF and USACK. It does beg to ask the question, why then allow Ross to be in this position? Why allow the affiliation? One would only think the Ross' roll would be to help support USACK in its growth yet McNamara clearly states his lack of support. There was a clear directive from McNamara to declare loyalty. Why is McNamara OK with his key guy being involved with USACK?

His reply omits this because it's true. He wants control over the sport and all invloved in the sport.

SNATCH!

Anon, he's as cunning as they get hiding behind the "good Dr." persona.

Snatch, that's hilarious!

butter me up

All I can say is Coach Mac is the real deal and the other folks are posers.
I'm not from Philly and has followed them for 15 years. PDBA is a real team and club. They have their issues, but every team does. The other guy is just putting teams once a year barely and that's it.

Consistent annual regatta attendance (whether they are worlds, Montreal, etc.) and results speaks for themselves. There aren't too many coaches in the world that has the results that Coach Mac has.

"Wow, 4 past US gold medalists at World Games which McNamara is stating should be respected, as they should be, yet he goes on to state they are not up to Prague standards. Talk out of both sides of your mouth much?

I heard this dude was an egomaniac, this confirms it. Sounds to me like he's all caught up trying to validate himself."

As if you do not know him, funny post.
Coach doesn't specifically say what he feels about those 4 medalists, you are extrapolating.
Respecting someone's past accomplishments has nothing to do with respecting an individual or that person's current activities or other actions. Clearly he has little reason to respect at least one of those prior gold medalists MB. His and the other childish posts from your group supports his belief that the US in Prague is better off without them. Coach has nothing to validate, he cut out the cancer of MB and is current world champion. That is not "trying to validate" it is validation, end of story.

Did you also witness him drive away more quality athletes than any other coach? The same athletes that McNamara solicited for Prague and who refused to paddle with him? You can fill 2 boats with these guys and gals. He's a true legend.

"Did you also witness him drive away more quality athletes than any other coach? The same athletes that McNamara solicited for Prague and who refused to paddle with him? You can fill 2 boats with these guys and gals. He's a true legend."

Wasn't the order from the USDBF for him and all the winning coaches to reach out to the losing teams from LB? He follows that directive and now you throw it in his face. The problem you likely have is that he wanted you to do a time trial for the seat instead of gifting you a shirt that says national team member. Coach himself time trialed this year in Houston, CA, Florida and about 6 times in Philly, all to get the fastest team unlike the pick your friends mentality of those he drove away.

If you run the list of guys who he drove away you will find that it mostly has to do with their perception of being treated unfairly when he cut them or sat them out races. Decisions that have been validated. Others who have been subject to the same decisions have stayed with the team and continue to enjoy success in other roles like seniors or GM. Too bad you could not accept in a manly fashion the natural progression of diminishing skills and improving competition which required him to ask you to step aside for a better paddler for the good of team USA. So you went to Taiwan with your idea of a national team and ran smack into the teeth of what a true national team consists of, fast young studs who do little but canoe or kayak all day in Russia and Germany and they destroyed you. Wake up and smell the water lilies your time has passed and be thankful that the US has at least one coach who knows what it takes to win at the world level.

Although I really don't have the time for this, I feel compelled to speak up in an attempt to defuse some the negativity. Gee wiz!

I would like to make an appeal to those on my teams to back off this negative banter. It's unproductive and quite frankly, a bit immature. I understand the purpose of the Forum, but quite frankly this is why I prefer not to even go on it. So, although you brought this to my attention, I will not be entertaining this past this post. Hope you understand.

This rivalry between Bob McNamara and me is apparently one sided at this point and being kept alive by Bob. I left him and the PDBA behind years ago and am quite happy doing my own thing. I wish him and his team success in Prague.

A few quick items:

1. World Games - We had a blast. I never experienced such an event. Too bad we had such short notice for putting together the team to be a bit more competitive. That said, this team was filled with outstanding people. I truly had a great time with them and would race with any of them again. Sure, winning is great, but these people were outstanding and an absolute pleasure to be around and paddled extremely well for a bunch of old farts (mainly master and grand master paddlers). We truly enjoyed one another all week while in Taipei first then Kaohsiung. Even though we were an older crew, we were in the thick of it all and unfortunately I was taken out of the game. I did not make a big deal of it at the time and appreciate those coming to my defense, but it's not necessary. For those wondering why not use subs, I did. On Saturday I sat out of the 500 heat, the team went straight to the semi and unfortunately just missed the final A. Because we missed the final A and were in the minor final I decided to race the minor final with a rigging on my hand because our stroke rate was off (I set the rate), I had zero pain and wanted to see if I could handle the 1000 final later in the day. It felt fine but because I was taped to the paddle I could not feel it and quite frankly it would be hard to justify my being in the 1000 and sitting a healthy paddler. So I sat out the 1000 as well. As for the hero comments, that's a bit much. I heard it too at the time and tried to get them to stop. Absolutely not a hero, my niece and nephew fighting in Afghanistan are heroes, I'm far from that. The skirmish which took place on the water during the 2000 had to do to the fact that our boat did not hear the official command our boat to hold water coming out of turn 2. That's on me, I simply did not hear it in all the commotion and it lead to our disqualification when we were running extremely strong. I take full responsibility for the disqualification.

2. ICF / IDBF rivalry - To be clear, Dragon Boat USA is supportive of USDBF and IDBF events. We have made a conscious decision to not take the same stand the USDBF and IDBF has in the past. We have done so because we feel it is in the interest of growing the sport for both organizations to encourage and support one another. You can agree or disagree. We would hope you would agree and support the ICF events as well. The World Games are a great example of how an extremely visible sporting event such as this could only help in the exposure we all need. World Games will have a positive effect on Prague as was pointed out earlier. For that we should all be happy. Where Ross Flemer is concerned, it's already been addressed within Dragon Boat USA and USACK and there is no need for paranoia. Ross has a purpose within USACK and poses no threat to Dragon Boat USA.

3. Disrespecting past or present USA accomplishments - This serves no purpose. I too was on those past teams and have those medals framed and proudly on display. Things happen on race day and those involved know what they are. That should not negatively effect or diminish the outcome. If others want to do that to our Team USA that put it on the line at World Games then so be it, it does not affect what you know took place there and no one can take that from you. World Games was an experience of a lifetime and I am proud to have been a part of it, with you. I realize teams are judged buy wins and losses and some of you may think I nuts, but I've said this before - There is no shame in losing if you raced your best and did not hand it to the competition. This team raced it's best and I'm proud to have been their coach. Because I got to do a very special thing with very special people, I feel I won big!

I wish you all the best,
Coach Mike

The strategy of posting negatively and then posting an "I don't come to this forum but feel compelled to respond" post is well known and transparent. You're not fooling anyone.
Regarding the ICF vs IDBF debate. IDBF has no problem with ICF putting on their own events. But they do have a problem with ICF promoting and naming their events World Championships. That right belongs to the recognized international body for any sport. In this case it is the IDBF. What if IDBF decided to host the IDBF World Canoe-Kayak Championships? Sounds silly but it is a parallel. Regarding the ICF participation in World Games. I hope this is the last time the ICF presents itself to a world multi-sport games committee as the international federation for dragon boat. This is an out and out lie and legal action by the IDBF may be required to stop this behaviour.
At this time the ICF is telling the IOC that it is the federation who would represent dragon boat as part of the IOC family even though GAISF has accepted IDBF as the world body for dragon boat. How stupid is this.

"GAISF has accepted IDBF as the world body for dragon boat. How stupid is this."

You must know what you're talking about.

Here's a bit of info you may find interesting. GAISF reprimanded the IDBF this past year for such claims that the ICF was not a World Championship because it does recognize both organizations and has permitted both to call their event "World Championships". GAISF went on to warn the IDBF against stating the contrary, as it did in its news letter, and if the IDBF were to disparage the ICF World Championships again GAISF would strip the IDBF of it right to call their championships "World Championships".

go figure

"This rivalry between Bob McNamara and me is apparently one sided at this point and being kept alive by Bob. I left him and the PDBA behind years ago and am quite happy doing my own thing."

That's a nice post and maybe something that will cool the fires but you can't expect us to believe the above. You really don't care about him or the PDBA? Someone apparently does. Clearly Bob did not start the Alcan world record thread or raise the same old issues on the team trials thread he started. It is not one-sided. Additionally, while anyone who knows the whole story behind the split is aware that the actions on your part are not something Bob could ever fully put behind him those who know you would find it equally implausible that you have now or ever will put the matter to rest in your own mind. The rivalry will always exist the question is how civil it will be.

How does a few hack teams under an ICF banner and calling themselves world championships in any way help promote Dragon Boating?

Anyone seeing that would think the whole sport is a joke and not realize that there are some really high caliber and and well attended events out there.

It would be like throwing a couple local softball teams on ABC and calling that the MLB World Series and blasting that around the world. Not exactly the image MLB would want I don't think.

The whole ICF thing add nothing positive to Dragon Boating's image as far as I can see.

One of the more insightful posts so far on this flame war.

4:02pm - you must be blind. That's ok since there are blind dragon boat teams out there for you to flame on.

Yeah, I'm the one that's blind.

Haha..the first blind comment didn't make any sense. Very obvious intent there.

Yeah I guess it's hard not to take it personally if you participated, but the reality is that Dragon Boating ala ICF isn't anywhere near what it is ala IDBF. It's simple truth. Deal with it.

If you choose to participate in an ICF event, then you get what you are asking for. It's a classic lose lose. No one is going to take those results seriously whether they be good (you didn't race the best) or bad (man, you didn't even race the best).

So get your %$#% together and do club crews or if your able to reach high enough try out for your countries National Teams that paddle at IDBF Worlds if you want to be taken seriously. Either one of those would put you in a bigger, better competitive environment and you would also no longer be supporting an organization that is trying to undermine the IDBF wherever possible.

The simple fact of the event taking place is a negative to almost everyone here. Every once of interest or attention that that DB gets via the ICF just detracts from the true organization and development of the sport by the try governing body.

The ICF is the like the scabs of Dragon Boating without even having the decency to wait for a strike.

I have been paddling for 15 years but am not a card carrying member of either the IDBF or ICF, so I don't owe anybody anything. Of course in saying that I will be flamed. It's what people here do.
I wish to comment on 12:22pm's post.
People like this are the ones who say they want to race "the best" then when they get their butts handed to them they start a thread complaining about whatever they can to justify things.
When you talk about getting into a "bigger, better competitive environment", from what I hear the World Games was in fact quite large in scope compared to what a lot of the other events are.
It's probable that the teams involved, not being National teams were not as strong, but the exposure, be it favourable to the people who read this or not, is good for the sport. The average fan doesn't care if the "big" teams do the races 5-10 seconds faster, they just want to see close and exciting heats. They don't know what the times are supposed to be in certain depths of water, wind factors, current or whatever!

"you would also no longer be supporting an organization that is trying to undermine the IDBF wherever possible" From reading the posts here, it seems to me that I hear far more negativity from the IDBF supporters than from the ICF people.

"Every once(sic) of interest or attention that that DB gets via the ICF just detracts from the true organization and development of the sport by the try governing body" I think it's comments like this are are all too common which drag the sport down as a whole and makes everybody look kind of foolish. Every time we Dragon Boat in a public forum, at ANY level, we have the opportunity to help the sport grow. Its all good!

Obviously the "World Games" committee chose the the ICF side for a reason. Whether it be that IDBF didn't apply, or whatever, I don't know, but that choice was made by no doubt very qualified people. If the committe thinks its good enough to host ICF at the World Games, then it's good enough for me.
Congratulations to all of the participating teams.

"The ICF is the like the scabs of Dragon Boating without even having the decency to wait for a strike."


Your post illustrates the attitude problem of too many dragonboaters: you take this sport way too seriously and you expect everyone else to do the same.

It's only a sport -- and still an obscure one at that (how many times have you had to explain what dragonboating is?). Seriously, why do you care so much if someone paddles in an ICF event or in an IDBF event or in a local regatta that is neither ICF or IDBF? We are all in this for fun, first and foremost.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be the best also, of course -- and more power to those who are at the top in this sport. Their athleticism and dedication is admirable. But the vast majority of dragon boaters are not elites, nor do they care!

As for World Games entries: blame the IDBF is you wanted a better quality U.S./Canadian entry. The World Games are part of the IOC, and the IOC needs to recognize the IDBF before the IOC will allow the IDBF to send teams to the World Games. I don't think the IDBF really cared enough about the World Games to even make the effort to be recognized as the governing body of the sport, so the ICF represented dragonboating by default.

I see.

So would you say that the USFL had a positive influence on American football in general? Even better, how about the XFL. That was a real shinning moment for US Football.

Do you think that the NFL, which is clearly the height of American Football organizations was happy to have the additional publicity, lose some players, cause confusion and dilute the sport?

In any case you are wrong about me and my motivations. Don't bother painting me with your brush. I have and continue to compete at a Club Crew Worlds level. I don't play at the national level, but I'm not sure what that has to do with whether or not the ICF is good or bad for the development of DB. Heck whether I paddle club crews or even paddle at all makes little difference to the points I'm trying to make.

Sure the IDBF has issues. No organization is perfect, and I don't pretend that they are. They are still relatively in their infancy, trying to establish themselves and grow. Things that just make the ICF's efforts all the more problematic. For good, bad or otherwise the mandate of the IDBF is to promote and grow the sport of DB.

The ICF's interest in Dragon Boating is singular. Control the sport in order to put our paddlers numbers under their national federations umbrellas in order to solicit additional funding which will then be funneled into OTHER paddle disciplines. It's your choice. You can be a paddle hamster on the ICF wheel spinning it in the hopes to someday better fund Canoe/Kayak, or you can spin the imperfect DB wheel for the IDBF knowing at least that you are in it for your own sports development.

Tell me why on earth would I or others that support Dragon Boating and it's development support that ICF effort? This crap isn't even a secret. Come on people.

Wrong. The IOC is a patron (supporter) of the International World Games Association which owns the event. The IOC supports many organizations including Commonwealth Games, PanAm Games and GAISF which is the organization that the IOC counts on to organize and recognize all the international sport federations both Olympic and non Olympic sports. IDBF is the GAISF member for dragon boat - full stop. The ICF is the member for Canoe/Kayak. The GAISF bylaws specifically do not allow more than one organization to govern a particular sport. That is not to say that any sport organization can organize any sport event it wants. If The FISA wanted to run a dragon boat or Canoe/Kayak regatta they could do that but they cannot call either a World Championships. FISA cannot go to the Commonwealth Games committee and tell them that they want to run the dragon boat component of the 2015 games. Those rights belong to the official sport organization for dragon boat (IDBF) recognized by GAISF hence the IOC.

Someone had posted a little while ago that GAISF had said that is was OK for the ICF to call their games the World Championships. Is there any way to confirm that? It really seems counter-intuitive that they would allow two organizations to hold world championships for a given sport.

In any case, it really has little bearing on whether or the ICF is good for Dragon Boating.

I wish there were some reason on hope to even mention the IOC, but lets face it, there is little to no chance of DB ever getting into the games due to the numbers required to include them even if there were no other barriers.

And by their own admission the ICF certainly has no intentions in that direction. IDBF may still dream about it, but I'm pretty sure reality has sunken in.

IDBF has no illusions regarding dragons in the olympic games. A long shot at best.
GAISF has never told ICF that they can organize a dragon boat WC.
They just haven't told them firmly that they cannot. Yet.

That would pretty much align with my perceptions as well.

Lets separate the discussion from the recent event for a second.

Let's pretend that there was no ICF and no IDBF.

Now, all things being equal, I think we can all probably agree that having one organization trying to promote the sport on the world stage rather than two competing for attention while doing whatever they could to undermined the other would be preferred. Regardless of who was right or wrong.

If we could agree on that and they apply it to the ICF and IDBF situation then maybe people could see the concern from an IDBF supporters perspective.

We are little enough recognized as it is without the bickering. Imagine organizers, federations and/or Sports body having to put up with both the ICF and IDBF badgering them for positioning with regard to Dragon Boating. We are nowhere near important enough for them to bother with that kind of crap. At this point in our sports development it's probably much easier to just ignore us that have to deal with that if and when it comes up.

Even the simple fact that we are having this discussion (I will call it a discussion rather than an argument) about the recent event and who went and why has a negative impact on the DB community by the very splitting nature of the discussion.

Even if the ICF and IDBF were almost perfectly aligned in their goals, worked closely together and supported each other the very nature of trying to have to heads leading the Dragon would be problematic.

But then again, what do I know. I'm blind apparently.

Any comparison/analogy to the NFL/USFL/XFL (you left our the Arena League and Canadian League, too, btw) is ridiculous. Those are all professional leagues. The IDBF and ICF are amateur leagues. Again, you are an example of taking dragonboating too seriously when you make analogies based on pro leagues.

Dragonboating is what it is: a growing amateur sport that is doing fine. The IDBF/ICF worry is only for the power mongers at the IDBF (and USDBF) who are insecure about their already relatively meaningless positions.

Not sure why you bother posting if it's so meaningless and beneath you.

I learned a long time ago that you don't get to impose what you think is or is not important on others. Maybe you should think about that for a bit.

You're twisting my words. I never said that the sport is meaningless; however, the politics and egos, and self-importance are. Just paddle (at whatever level or race you're happen to be) and enjoy the sport.

Some prefer a more participatory and/or vocal approach.

Feel free to enjoy it your way, others may choose to try and promote and/or preach what they consider to be what's best for the sports development.

Your still trying to tell others how they should approach things. To each their own.

This is SO retarded.

Thank you for this thread.

It has reminded me why I stopped paddling DB. Anyone else in the US who is sick of this ****, know there are a bunch of other paddle sports to compete in where you don't see this sort of junior high-school bulls*it. In most cases, the competition in these sports is also actually better than what you get in DB.

There will be hope for a unified organization focused on the true betterment of the sport of dragon boating and one on the festival of dragon boating - when current exec presidents leaders die off. Too much old turf wars at play here. They just don't want to play nice and never really tried. Just a bunch of old farts trying to protect something they call their own.

"IDBF is the GAISF member for dragon boat - full stop. The ICF is the member for Canoe/Kayak. The GAISF bylaws specifically do not allow more than one organization to govern a particular sport."

Here's a bit of reality. ICF is recognized by GAISF. ICF got the bid for World Games and offered the IDBF to work hand in hand with the ICF for The World Games. Hum, why then no participation by the foot stomping, juvenile, IDBF? Because the IDBF wanted it all with no ICF participation. They basically told the ICF what you're all touting. "We're the recognized sport, not the ICF and we do it alone." So the ICF went forward without them. Greedy, controlling bastards. The IDBF stuck all or you loyalists on the side line on this one. How ironic! Who not progressing the sport?

If you want to stop the BS, contact GAISF direct. You will become educated on some reality and this tread will come to a "full stop".

Hilarious!

You snooze you lose!

Guess those in the ICF inferior, slower, National Teams from across the planet were the real losers here. NOT! That's exactly what a elitist attitude will get you - left behind. And actually, the IDBF teams were no match at this event - they were not there! How funny is that?

The bitter comments sound like jealousy to me. Move on and focus on Prague.

Don't really care for the details but regardless of what's legal and what's not, doesn't anybody else think it's silly to have two governing bodies over the same sport with "world championships"?

I think it would be safe to say, that given the ICF's approach that the IDBF would avoid "validating" the ICF's participation in Dragon Boating and that is probably why they had no interest in any "joint" activities.

The Dragon Boat World Championships are in a month. No one would have gone to these games anyway. We miss out on nothing.

Get over yourselves already.

Major League Baseball has been holding a "World Series" for over 100 years although only teams from two countries compete in it. Is it that much of a surprise that in dragonboat "world championship" has more than one meaning?

"The Dragon Boat World Championships are in a month. No one would have gone to these games anyway. We miss out on nothing."


Use your head.

The IDBF could have easily been part of the World Games, which would have afford the top teams from all the Wolrd Games participating countries to be part of a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. The World Games blew away anything that the ICF or the IDBF can ever offer on their own.

The IDBF likely held back because it feared that its Prague event would not have been as well-attended if the IDBF had been part of the World Games. Lovely self-interest, no?

Keep in mind that the head of the USDBF was pissed that the USDBF didn't get a chance to be part of the World Games. No one to blame but the IDBF.

Wow. Ok. I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

Until recently, I did not know there was a conflict between IDBF and ICF. Heck, I didn't even know what the ICF was. So trust me, I have no allegiance to any sports federation. But now that I have read this entire thread from top to bottom, let me make one thing clear. No dragon boater doubts the fact that the World Games had an awesome opening ceremony, an army of security guards, or a huge audience in attendance. Heck, you can even tell us that during the festivities, multiple squadrons of fighter jets flew by and launched fireworks out of their missile bays, and I'll believe you.

The problem is, nobody cares.

You have to understand where the rest of us are coming from. We are fans and athletes of the sport of dragon boating. The bells and whistles might be exciting for average spectators, but if any of us are to travel halfway around the world to compete in or observe dragon boating, we would want the world's best in attendance.

Kudos to all of the people who attended the World Games. I have nothing against you, and I'm sure most of you are not under the illusion that it is the world's premier dragon boat event. For the rest of you, feel free to debate on here about whether or not the World Games is good for dragon boating; or whether it is the ICF or IDBF that is in the wrong. But please, don't try to convince dragon boaters that this is a "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity" (especially with details about the grandiosity of the festivities). Your words fall on deaf ears.

At a recent meeting of International Outrigger, Dragon Boat and Rafting associations it was decided that an International Paddlesport Federation which would represent all paddlesport interests including canoe-kayak was something to consider. ICF was even offered a leading role in this new organization since they are the Olympic sport. A world paddlesport event would be quite something! So far the ICF have not warmed up to this initiative. Instead they have stated that they wish to absorb and govern these other paddlesport disciplines rather than cooperate with them. Oh, and the only reason the world games chose ICF is beacause they misrepresented themselves to the organizing committee as the world governing body for dragon boat and by the time the world games people found out that this was not true it was too late. I don't blame the IDBF for not supporting this event.

On the World Games: "The problem is, nobody cares. "

And who in the U.S. and Canada cares about the IDBF World Championships (and dragonboating in general), aside from the paddlers themselves and their friends and families? You sound silly telling us that no one cares about the World Games when no one really cares about dragonboating anyway. It's pretty much OUR sport, that's all. Get some perspective.



"But please, don't try to convince dragon boaters that this is a "once-in-a-lifetime opportunity" (especially with details about the grandiosity of the festivities). Your words fall on deaf ears."

How do you know? Were you there?

This was not the typical World Games. Taiwan was clearly trying to compete with China's Olympic efforts from 2008, and the results were startling. The opening ceremonies, indeed, were incredible and clearly based on Beijing 2008. The lodging (at good hotels) was free. Food was free, varied, and tasty. Chiropractors and massage therapists (free) were easily available to the athletes. Unlimited water, sports drinks, and snacks were available for the athletes at the competition venues. Each team had its own bus to get from the hotel to the competition venues. The athletes' party was huge, fun, and free. World Games volunteers were everywhere, ready to help you with anything, anytime. Each team was provided with a dedicated, full-time local guide who was at your service for anything your team needed.

For most dragon boaters, the World Games was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. The dragonboat World Champiosnhips (whether run by the IDBF or the ICF) will never provide what the World Games provided. That's no fault of the IDBF or ICF, btw. The World games was an event for 30+ sports, so the overall purpose of the World Games cannot be fairly compared to a one-sport championship held elsewhere.

The IDBF World Championships will provide way more competition, of course. But we get that every two years with the IDBF. It's a great event, but not unique.

"Oh, and the only reason the world games chose ICF is because they misrepresented themselves to the organizing committee as the world governing body for dragon boat and by the time the world games people found out that this was not true it was too late."


Interesting. But hard to believe.

Surely the IDBF knew WELL in advance of the upcoming World Games and would have had plenty of time to let the World Games organizers know about the IDBF's role in dragonboating. Not sure why the World Games went with with ICF instead, but your claim that the IDBF's role was understood "too late" by the World Games people makes me skeptical. If it is indeed the case that the World Games was informed too late, then blame the IDBF for not explaining its role soon enough. Surely, the IDBF had enough time.

Rather, the IDBF likely didn't want to cannibalize its own World Championships in Prague and decided to stay away from the World Games.

Sigh. I guess you've completely missed the point of my post. Clearly, by "nobody cares", I meant that no dragon boater (i.e. the ppl who are on this forum) cares. You're on a forum for dragon boat enthusiasts, so the World Games holds little significance for us (not including you, of course). Sure, it might be a nice experience to be pampered a week or however long the games last, but it won't be the pinnacle of a serious competitive dragon boater's athletic career.

And I'll agree with you, dragon boating isn't a sport that has much of a fan base outside of the competitors themselves. Who would dispute that?

The point of my post, which I think could not be more clear, was that you can't convince us to care about this event because of its grandeur. Yet you responded with descriptions of tasty food, free swag, fancy hotel stays, local guides, etc. Seriously, you can tell us that you each got a hot sexy Taiwanese volunteer to wait on you hand and foot and it would not make a difference to people on this forum.

Do you get it now? If not, then so be it. I'm not going to bother responding again. And if you don't want to embarass yourself, I suggest you don't either. You and I clearly think very differently. I judge events by the merit of the competitors. You apparently wish to focus on the opulence of the event.

"Seriously, you can tell us that you each got a hot sexy Taiwanese volunteer to wait on you hand and foot and it would not make a difference to people on this forum."

Umm...could you speak for yourself there buddy! That last one would be the clinched it for me

"The lodging (at good hotels) was free. Food was free, varied, and tasty. Chiropractors and massage therapists (free) were easily available to the athletes. Unlimited water, sports drinks, and snacks were available for the athletes at the competition venues. Each team had its own bus to get from the hotel to the competition venues. The athletes' party was huge, fun, and free. World Games volunteers were everywhere, ready to help you with anything, anytime. Each team was provided with a dedicated, full-time local guide who was at your service for anything your team needed."

You can't have it both ways, earlier in the thread you were making EXCUSES for the performance of your team saying there was no funding for travel and we couldn't get a good team, blah, blah, blah and here we finally see that you had FREE LODGING AND FOOD and many other benefits. So the world games rolls out the red carpet and the best you can come up with is a weak senior-GM team?

As far as I'm concerned, this thread is just one person arguing with himself.

"You can't have it both ways, earlier in the thread you were making EXCUSES for the performance of your team saying there was no funding for travel and we couldn't get a good team, blah, blah, blah and here we finally see that you had FREE LODGING AND FOOD and many other benefits. So the world games rolls out the red carpet and the best you can come up with is a weak senior-GM team?"


You're not being fair with your manipulative post, as I'm sure you know.

You conveniently neglect the fact (as you surely read above) that the U.S. was given two weeks notice that a bid was available for them for the World Games -- after many people had already planned to go to Prague. That fact alone greatly diminished who was available for the World Games for the U.S. Also, airfare to Taiwan was not paid for by the World Games -- and that expense is always far more than room/board.

All the other benefits the teams received in Taiwan were incredible and well received. But anyone who went still had to pay to get there and find the time to do -- on very short notice.

Keep in mind that nobody really knew how well the teams would be treated until we arrived there. It was indeed a pleasant surprise. Those of you who are criticizing this wonderful experience are sad people!

If you want to say that we are making "excuses" for not being competitive, go ahead. But then think about how the U.S. Premier teams at the IDBF Worlds are put together. The main reason why the U.S. Premier team in Sydney won the Nations Cup was not only because they had the best talent, but also because they had time to raise enough money to fund their team's entire trip. More power to them for doing so, too. Yet without those funds, many of their top guys would not have gone and the U.S. would have fared quite differently. The U.S. team (including the Premier Women) going to Prague is also fully funded this year, so expect them to be right near the top again.

Well I for one would love to do an IDBF event with all that pampering. I on the other hand, would not spend the time and money to do an ICF one simply due to the level of competition.

Not doubting that it was a fun event and great to experience, but that's not why I paddle. If all my crew did was the most interesting or fun events and never raced any of the top crews what would be the point?

Again, as has been stated many times, this is generally the opinion of competitive dragon boaters who have frequented IDBF events etc. If the ICF and IDBF could somehow bury the hatched (and not into each other of course) then all the better. Having two groups fighting for control cannot benefit the DB community. Unless they decide to both try and buy our love and swamp us with irresistible events and perks... NOT.

There have been a lot of comments that the IDBF is greedy. Well they are trying to grow the organization etc and that takes money. I really don't see how trying to protect what they obviously feel is their own back yard could be considered selfish or greedy. If I wanted to put a pool in my neighbors yard and he didn't want me to, is he greedy and selfish?

At least any money I give to the IDBF will go to further Dragon Boating interests whereas if the ICF had their way we would all be subsidizing other paddle disciplines. Even an inefficient, bloated or disorganized IDBF would still have my interest closer to their own than the ICF ever will.

"Our entire team watched in amazement as the coach and lead paddler for USA had his badly broken hand he received in the 2000 taped to his paddle on Saturday for the 500's and 1000. The man was clearly hiding his pain, his hand was disgusting and he took one for his team as if nothing happened. All teams took notice.

Racing was over and I watched as the Russians and Hungarians were hailing him as "World Games Hero". That was something. Only after racing was over did he get taken to the hospital. "



Hey Mike,

In the future if you don't want to penalize your team don't punch hotel walls, mkay? (and whoever posted the above - breaking your hand as a result of being angry about the 2k isn't the same as breaking it IN the 2k)

Aaaaaand, there it is

there what is McNamara, Flemer?

You start this thread, created the negativity about ICF and such simply to invite non productive dialogue for the sole purpose of blowing smoke up your own *** ****!

Clearly you have an axe to grind, or a serious inferiority complex. Handle it like a man and spare the forum all your BS.

And there it is! You're great! You're the best!

"Wannabee"

Feel better jack ass?

It appears these two men do not like each other.
The bickering, back and forth, year after year goes on and on.
Nothing ever gets resolved on this forum, and now it seems a hand was broken in frustration, but outside of the boat!
It's time to STFU and step into the ring already. I'd pay see this!

Well for the record I posted that "Aaand, there it is" and I am not either of those people you mentioned. I actually have nothing to do with either of them as well.

Clearly there is enough animosity without that getting wrongly assigned.

I'm just one of the popcorn munching masses who figured it was only a matter of time before the thread reached new levels.

"there what is McNamara, Flemer?

You start this thread, created the negativity about ICF and such simply to invite non productive dialogue for the sole purpose of blowing smoke up your own *** ****! "

Didn't someone who used the moniker "gypsy" start this thread?

So...was the hand broken outside the boat? That sounds like the work of an ignorant angry person.

McNamara wrote: "The events in Taiwan are what they are and I have zero support for any ICF 'world' event."


McNamara, maybe you secretly support the ICF. If not, you should. Would the U.S. have won the Nations Cup in Sydney if the ICF didn't hold "world" events? Without the meddling of the ICF, the U.S. Men and Women would have also had to beat in Sidney the best Germans and Russians (and Hungarians?). Your men's team would have been competitive against those teams. But your women's team failed to medal in Sydney without those powerful teams there. Your women would have fared even worse with those teams present and your Nations Cup result likely would have been different. Be careful what you wish for when you tell people not to support the ICF. In the meantime, do well in Prague.

Wow. I had to put down my popcorn and say that last argument made very little sense.

Let's simplify this. Without the ICF's sucking some of the talent from the IDBF Worlds, McNamara may not have won the Nations Cup. Yet he is a BIG opponent of the ICF. Funny.

I'm amazed at the logic being displayed here.
The bitterness has really clouded their thinking.

Why is anyone bitter?

McNamara still has his highly competitive teams and seems to be satisfied with that. He's the defending Nations' Cup coach. He should be in the mix in Prague.

Blundetto has his own thing going on and his team got to have a great time at the World Games.

Why all the fuss?

I think at this point we, the popcorn munching masses, are going to need some bio links and pics to stay with the action.

This is more interesting than any of the crap on TV!

Pass the Jiffy and don't be cheap on the budder!

Breaking a hand is having fun in the World Games?

It is if you do it punching a wall apparently.

I heard there was a picture of Bob McNamara on that wall.

So he punched him in the walls?

1000 meter race results

1 RUS Russia 4:03.85 0.00
2 GER Germany 4:04.16 +0.31
3 HUN Hungary 4:04.51 +0.66
4 TPE Chinese Taipei 4:26.95 +23.10
5 SWE Sweden 4:27.00 +23.15
6 USA United States 4:29.07 +25.22
7 JPN Japan 4:29.50 +25.65
8 CAN Canada 4:41.25 +37.40

Wow, so brutal.

It's embarrassing that the teams from 4 on down were allowed to wear their countries colors. What a joke.

Those posted results don't tell the whole story.

Each team did one 1000-meter race and time was kept. (No heats or semis.) There were two 1000-meter "finals". The bottom five teams on that list (posted above) were all in the first 1000-meter race, during which there were 30+mph headwinds as a result of the typhoon that was off the coast. As it turned out, winds were very mild during the second 1000-meter race (the winds were unpredictable all day) -- during which only three teams competed because the team from Ukraine did not participate in the 1000. Of course, if there were no winds for either race, the placements would not have been different because Russia, Germany, and Hungary were the top three teams there. But the huge (20+ seconds) gap in time between third-place Hungary and everyone else would not have occurred without the typhoon.

The ICF's running the 1000-meter races this way (one race each; time only) was stupid and could have backfired in these conditions if the race times had been reversed. That is, if the top three teams had instead been in the first race (with the major headwind) and the bottom five teams had been in the second race (with little wind), it's quite possible that some of the bottom five teams would have had better times than Russia, Germany, or Hungary. That would have been unfair to those top three teams. Luckily, things turned out "right" -- but it was just that for the ICF: luck.

i just thought it was interesting that dragon boat was part of this event. I had no idea this would turn out the way it did. Actually, the topic is less a can of worms, and it's more the posters bringing the worms to the party.
Dont get any on your popcorn, cuz worm popcorn is just plain gross.