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Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009 at 12:13 PM
Anonymous 

 
It has become clear that Lane 1 in Prague is BY FAR the fastest lane. Why the IDBF decided to hold a World Championship in this location is mind-boggling. Teams trained hard for the Worlds. Teams spent a lot of money to go to Prague, too. Teams deserve a fair, unbiased race course for the Worlds. Instead, the teams get shafted by the IDBF.

The IDBF should stop worrying about the ICF and start worrying about their own product.

 
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Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 12:32 PM 


Word is spreading on this, coming right from Prague.

What is causing the lane bias? Outside lane deeper than center lanes? It looks like a controlled course, reminds me of Montreal.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 12:37 PM 


Australia beats Canada in the Senior Mixed 500m!

Australia paddled in Lane 1.

Not to take away from the Aussies, but honestly, it looks like this is evidence of the bias. Take a look at the Seniors so far and they really have dominated. They must be feeling gyped.



 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 1:25 PM 

FCRCC just won the premier mixed 500 in lane won by almost 3 seconds on the field ,the phillipines were a 2.05 and so we some of the others

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 1:42 PM 

Fcrcc was in lane 1 for the final but had the 3rd fastest time going in

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 1:50 PM 

"Fcrcc was in lane 1 for the final but had the 3rd fastest time going in"

Nice try. You didn't note that there were 5 other teams within .7 seconds of Canada (plus the Philippines were 1.2 seconds faster!) in the semis -- yet Canada won by 2.5 seconds in Lane 1.

 
 
Anonymous

Lanes

August 29 2009, 2:30 PM 

"Fcrcc was in lane 1 for the final but had the 3rd fastest time going in"

Okay, well, in the lane draw you get Lane 1 by being third in that particular semi-final, right? something like that. Anyhow, the draw is set in advance and everyone has been jonesing for Lane 1 once it became apparent that lane 1 is the chute. Good for the FCRCC based mixed team for taking the gold, we (Canada) really needed it! Too bad that the lane that benefited our premiere mixed crew sculpered our Seniors as they took silver in a class that they have been dominating. Well, you win some and you lose some.

The issue isn't so much Lane 1 in Prague, but shallow race courses EVERYWHERE! This is why dragon boat racing is best done on lakes. You need deep deep deep water to elminate lane bias. Rowing courses that that have silted up or were substandard to being with (I'm looking in your direction, Olympic Basin!) play havoc with dragon boat races.

Besides, IDBF has NEVER, EVER chosen a dragon boat championships location based on the suitability of the race course. Maybe for the World Championships they pay lip service, for the Club Crews they care not at all. But even if they cared (convince me if you can) most rowing courses are currently insufficient to host a dragon boat championships. Our boats are big and heavy, HUGE displacement and lots of drag.

Mostly we can try to get by. The smarter amongst us learn the courses and plan their attach accordingly. But in terms of fair races based on fair courses? We can only dream.

GO CANADA!

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 2:34 PM 

"Besides, IDBF has NEVER, EVER chosen a dragon boat championships location based on the suitability of the race course. Maybe for the World Championships they pay lip service, for the Club Crews they care not at all."


The course in Sydney 2007 was completely fair. No complaints there.

The course in Penang 2008 was on a resevoir, behind a huge dam. Extremely deep. No complaints there.

Yet in 2009, Prague is a disaster.


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 2:35 PM 

The IDBF may change the seeding for the final day of racing.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 3:10 PM 

MAJOR ANNOUNCEMENT live from Prague

The IDBF has now officially changed it so that the fastest time in the semi will now automatically go into lane 1 for the final .,like thats going to work .

What should have been done was lane 1 shut down and add an extra heat .They argue that will add to much time and they have a schedule to follow .

Whoever ends up in lane 1 in the semi will more than likely have the fastest time and get lane 1 for the final .I think in the future they need to really look at the host city race sites .This course is very much the same as the Montreal Basin

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 3:27 PM 

That is utter stupidity. The team in Lane 1 in the semi will still have a huge advantage, which it will not have earned. Plus, putting the fastest semi in Lane 1 for the final virtually guarantees a victory. What a joke. And there are The Worlds???

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 3:33 PM 

This could get ugly. According to the race grid, the fastest time in each rep gets Lane 1 in the Semis. Could a lot of the top teams purposely sandbag their heats in order to go the rep, in an attempt to win the rep and get Lane 1 in the Semi? Stay tuned...

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 3:53 PM 

Thats what we are expecting to see tomorrow

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 3:55 PM 

They knew early on that lane 1 was the express lane,They should of done something sooner it takes away a win when everyone is trying to get into that lane. Im sure that teams know who the top teams are here in Prague and value sportrmanshipand for that express lane whoever gets into that lane is going to be tough to beat mentally.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 5:55 PM 

Purposely losing the heat to get to the rep is a dangerous game, depending on who winds up in your rep with you. Also, what if all the teams in a heat are trying to go to a rep? That'll make a mockery of the whole thing.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 6:04 PM 

Mockery you say, Lane 1 has already done that!!!!!!!

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 6:39 PM 

"Mockery you say, Lane 1 has already done that!!!!!!!"


True. IDBF = epic fail

 
 
Bobby Moore

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 8:45 PM 

Do they really still have world championships in DB????

How 2004.....

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 29 2009, 11:56 PM 

Hey look, it's bitter boy again.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 8:21 AM 

The IDBF is crooked. Or maybe just stupid. ROME 2002 was a housing scam. Paid hotel prices to stay in garden sheds (while all IDBF people stayed in nice hotels). In my opinion there should have been criminal charges on thatb one. And don't forget the racecourse with a fountain in the middle of lane 2! Cape town 2004????? Who got paid off for that one? Horrible race course (can't even host a 2000m race...). Now at worlds they picked a racecourse that is not fair and they change the rules during the competition. Horrible job IDBF.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 8:55 AM 

The Slovaks sandbagged their first heat, doing a 2:08. In all other heats, no apparent sandbagging.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 9:25 AM 

The canadian premier mixed did the same thing in the 500 and people here called it "strategy". Make up your mind.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 9:34 AM 

Nothing wrong with that. Take what the course gives you.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 10:17 AM 

The IDBF appears to be reseeding ALL races (not just the finals). Canada Premier Open had the fastest time of the teams that went to the Reps, and Canada was in Lane 1 in the Rep (and won).

 
 
anon

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 11:43 AM 

2008 was not a IDBF world championship.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 2:43 PM 

The IDBF must rely on the bidding organization to present the race course specs to them. If the Prague organizers claimed the course was the required 3.5m across lanes then unless IDBF gets out there in a boat with their yardstick they must trust this information. Tampa 2011 will be deep, deep water I know that for a fact.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 30 2009, 4:16 PM 

The problem in Prague is the course was fine when the IDBF scoped it out but then the weather came and apparantly a drought has been happening and the water level dropped considerably hence the problems with the lanes

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 31 2009, 1:46 PM 

The worlds were held in Prague twice, were they held in the same location? Was there lane bias in the previous Prague worlds?

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

August 31 2009, 5:21 PM 

You might be thinking of Poznan or maybe another paddlesport rather than dragon boat.
Euro championships probably held there though so not sure why this lane 1 depth issue could not be identified at that time.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 9:19 AM 

The water depth looked like it had dropped considerably due to a heavy drought in the area. The IDBF was obviously not happy. Their recognition of the problem and attempts to come up with some sort of solution for the last day were very appreciated by the competitors.

These worlds had more than 3000 athletes and more countries than ever.

 
 
Anonymous

Hollow victory?

September 1 2009, 9:43 AM 

"Fcrcc was in lane 1 for the final but had the 3rd fastest time going in"

"Nice try. You didn't note that there were 5 other teams within .7 seconds of Canada (plus the Philippines were 1.2 seconds faster!) in the semis -- yet Canada won by 2.5 seconds in Lane 1."

Forget the semis go back to the heats and you will see the issue clearer.

FCRCC has to know that their "victory" comes with a huge asterisk as in lane 1. If you look at their earlier races they lost by a decent margin head to head against the USA in the heat. And they did not coast in that race as it was two to qualify and they were going all out as the Aussies were actually leading them until the final 50 meters or so. They then finish third in the semi which you never ever try to do since if it happens to be the slower semi you would have been eliminated from the final based on the two next fastest time rules (see what happened to their men in the 500). Essentially they got in by their fingernails and were given the gift of the regatta. Same can be said for the Slovaks in men's 1000, Aussie senior mixed 500, Canadian junior open 500 and countless second and third place finishes out of lane 1 that did not follow the expected result.

Go back and look at the Sydney results: the medalists came from the top three times in the heats consistently through the regatta. In the Premier mixed 500 in Prague the top 3 times in the heats: PHL, CHN, USA finished out of the medals in the finals. The lane bias of 1 was followed by more of the same in lane 6 and lane 2 benefited from lane 1 pull. The single most incredible victory was CHN in lane 5 beating the PHL in lane 1 of the 500 final. Maybe the shallows did less to them but it was impressive.

 
 
Anonymous

Don't see it.

September 1 2009, 10:10 AM 

I don't see any "huge asterisk", but I think I see a pretty huge ass.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 10:26 AM 

Lanes 1,2 and 6 did consistently better their "seed", too bad this will stir controversy until Tampa and then we will have to hear about tides, etc.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 10:43 AM 

September 1 2009, 9:43 AM let the US excuses begin. I say excuses because attempts to justify the result already started on another thread.

Perhaps your time would be better spent coming up with excuses for for why you went from 1st to 4th and not how other crews got bonus wins. I guess you were on a different course and were the only ones contending with the course issues?

You just didn't do as well this time around. That's it, that's all. 4th in this tough field isn't anything to sneeze at, but feel free to point fingers at other good fortune as explanation for your lower than desired (expected?) results.

Heck I guess if we can have days gone Canadian Team paddlers jumping up and down for recognition that they could have done better than the current teams very respectable 2nd, your entitled to your excuses as well.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 10:46 AM 

Let's not take this thread off-topic. There's a new thread that deals with the U.S. excuses.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Huge a$$

September 1 2009, 12:39 PM 

Re: September 1 2009, 10:10 AM

"Don't see it.

I don't see any "huge asterisk", but I think I see a pretty huge ass."


ROFLMAO: that is the funniest thing I've read here in a long time.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 1:32 PM 

When course variations are of greater consequence than the difference between crews, you've reached a point of pure futility.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 1:39 PM 

"The single most incredible victory was CHN in lane 5 beating the PHL in lane 1 of the 500 final. Maybe the shallows did less to them but it was impressive."

Yes, sometimes lighter teams can get an advantage in shallow water. First they're not impacted by it as much initially. Also once they get moving and and "pop" the boat unto the wave that's generated by the hull. While they'll produce less of of wave, they have an easier time getting "on it". Could have even benefitted from USA wave as well. Once they are ahead of it, they are actually pushed by it. Easier getting in front of it because they're lighter.

You see this in marathon all the time when lighter canoes pop the boat unto the wave thats generated and actually end up with the wave pushing the hull as opposed to being a wall in front of it. Boat speed actually picks up. And you can even SEE and feel it.

I'm sure the dynamics are the same in DB, but not as visble.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 2:59 PM 

""The single most incredible victory was CHN in lane 5 beating the PHL in lane 1 of the 500 final. Maybe the shallows did less to them but it was impressive."

Yes, sometimes lighter teams can get an advantage in shallow water. First they're not impacted by it as much initially. Also once they get moving and and "pop" the boat unto the wave that's generated by the hull. While they'll produce less of of wave, they have an easier time getting "on it". Could have even benefited from USA wave as well. Once they are ahead of it, they are actually pushed by it. Easier getting in front of it because they're lighter."

That was one hell of a wave the US produced to propel Chine 2 + boat lengths ahead of them in just a 500 meter race dealing with the shallows.

How is it the shallows didn't effect China? Were they using magic paddles? Did they levitate over the shallows? Did they send a billion China men out there to dig out the lane prior to the race? NO WAY! The US was way better and China took advantage of their hard work and road a wave they produced because they were the STRONGEST non-asian team in the WORLD! Bob said so.

That's some very funny ****!


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 3:14 PM 

Interesting that posters are now suggesting Bob is posting all these messages.
Usually he does sign his name to them, and do any of you even know if he is back
in the country yet ?

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 3:15 PM 

does it matter?

still very funny

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 3:37 PM 

"Usually he does sign his name to them"

Sure he does, he's very honorable that way.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 4:03 PM 

"Usually he does sign his name to them, and do any of you even know if he is back
in the country yet?"

Usually, not always. This was proven when the IP addressed were displayed.

 
 
Dr. Canoe

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 1 2009, 5:03 PM 

Getting back to the lane 1 issue and the boats -

Yes, lane 1 was deeper - apparenly the Chinese team, after Saturdays races, measured the depth, and lane 1 was 4 meters deep, while lane 4 was only 2 meters deep - but don't dump on the IDBF for this - when I was at the course a month earlier for the world under 23 rowing championship, none of the rowers felt there was any lane bias - however, rowing shells are a lot lighter than dragonboats, but the IDBF could not predict that a drought would have lowered the water level by over a meter, and this was the main cause of the lane discrepancy.

However, once the issue was apparent, we should all dump on the IBDF for not taking Lane 1 out of the race - they could have used lanes 2 to 7. However, I suspect the reason for continuing to use lane 1 (and giving it to the team with the fastast qualifying time) was because they are in bed with Swift Dragonboats. I was at dinner on Friday in Melnik (in the "Cesky Republica!!), beside a table of the Swift Dragonboat reps, and when they asked me how I liked their boats, I had to be truthful (my response was not complimentary, much to the chagrin of my wife) - and the person who appeared to be their managing director was very taken aback, stating that the feedback they had had to date was that they were great boats, and how could they be slower than the BUK boats, because they had just set a record in the 200 race. So, I suspect that the IDBF had a deal with Swift (perhaps they provided the boats for free), and both the IDBF and Swift wanted the fastest times possible, so that rather than taking Lane 1 out of the competition, they gave it to the fastest qualifying team. However, even with the deep lane, Swift boats still are slow - but this is an anonymous post, so they can't sue me for libel....

On the other hand, Cesky Repulica is a great country to visit - the beer is cheap and the castles are plentiful...

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 2 2009, 1:24 AM 

"How is it the shallows didn't effect China? Were they using magic paddles? Did they levitate over the shallows? Did they send a billion China men out there to dig out the lane prior to the race?"


OMG, that's hilarious. Well done.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 2 2009, 4:34 AM 

The boats were horrible, they were not weighted properly aswell. They dint ride right. On the other hand, I am not US but they deserved to win the 1000m they are the best team there and they didn't get to prove it with their lane draw. I feel bad for them. I won in lane 1 and we had no bussiness doing it.

 
 
Anonymous

Typical lane 1 picture

September 2 2009, 4:50 PM 

[linked image]


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 2 2009, 10:31 PM 

Nice picture...wonder how you took it?? Were you levitating on your magic paddle?? LOL...

 
 
AusSquad

Video of 200m Opens Final

September 3 2009, 7:00 AM 


 
 
FBW

Swift & IDBF

September 3 2009, 12:09 PM 

"However, I suspect the reason for continuing to use lane 1 (and giving it to the team with the fastast qualifying time) was because they are in bed with Swift Dragonboats. I was at dinner on Friday in Melnik (in the "Cesky Republica!!), beside a table of the Swift Dragonboat reps, and when they asked me how I liked their boats, I had to be truthful (my response was not complimentary, much to the chagrin of my wife) - and the person who appeared to be their managing director was very taken aback, stating that the feedback they had had to date was that they were great boats, and how could they be slower than the BUK boats, because they had just set a record in the 200 race. So, I suspect that the IDBF had a deal with Swift (perhaps they provided the boats for free), and both the IDBF and Swift wanted the fastest times possible, so that rather than taking Lane 1 out of the competition, they gave it to the fastest qualifying team."

While it is true that Swift sponsored the boats for the championship (and for the EDBF CCC the month prior), which helps keep the regatta costs lower (boat rental is a HUGE budget item that otherwise would have been passed on to the paddlers), there is NO connection between lane 1 and IDBF trying to position the Swift boats as faster than other manufacturers' boats. (If you believe there is a connection, you probably also believe the moon landing was a hoax.) It was just a VERY unfortunate problem with the lane depths.

IDBF has been trying to go to "purpose built" regatta courses, those courses designed specifically for rowing/paddling sports, in order to ensure a good standard of racing, but it is obvious that even purpose built courses have their problems. (Europeans will face a similar thing at the ECCC next year in A'dam. That course is just under the minimum depth, but the members of the EDBF VOTED to hold the race there anyway because it is uniform across the bottom and has all the rest of the facilities to ensure good racing.) There's only so much you can do. Once the lane problem became apparent in Racice, the program was shifted to try to compensate for the problem but with a race with thousands of paddlers and a complex program of well over a hundred races, changing the program doesn't happen instantly.

As for the Swift boats, folks got a chance to try them without having to buy them. A lot of folks thought they were not good and a lot thought they were good. You decide where to spend your money. Feedback is going back to Swift about the boats - especially the stiffness and the way they sit on the water. Hopefully they'll take into account the larger and heavier European & North American teams in their next version...

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 3 2009, 7:08 PM 

Seeing Open division crews take up to 6 girls in their boats during World Championships racing or even racing with 9 rows should be feedback enough to Swift that their boats are rubbish.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 10:18 AM 

The lanes were not of equal depth along the course. The boat holder for lane 4 in the 200m races was standing in the water between races!

 
 
Anonymous

Lane Bias question answered

September 4 2009, 11:33 AM 

Here is a tool for you to do your own personal exploration of the validity of the lane 1, 6 and 2 bias reported by those in Prague. Go to this site and play around. You can isolate an event or a team to see how lane 1 stacked up. If you look at any race be it a local festival in Canada or a world championship event times do not vary to this degree from round to round for teams unless there is a lane bias or a radical change in wind conditions, the latter did not apply in Prague. Lane 1 gave a consistent 2-3 second improvement in performance. This is factual and should end the debate as to whether the lanes were uneven in Prague unfortunately it will not erase the bad taste of the competitors who were burned by this.

The calculator is on this site:

www.dragonboat.pl/prague2009

A couple of example searches are below one indicating support for the comments about the Slovakian team in the 1000 meter, another about the Premier Mixed 500 win by Canada and the Aussie senior mixed beating Farintosh's team.

1. SLOVAK REP 04:04.33 lane 1 premier open 1000m grand final
2. SLOVAK REP 04:07.98 lane 2 premier open 1000m semi 2
3. SLOVAK REP 04:11.90 lane 3 premier open 1000m heat 3

1. IRAN 04:09.33 lane 1 premier open 1000m minor final
2. IRAN 04:12.76 lane 5 premier open 1000m rep.1
3. IRAN 04:15.28 lane 6 premier open 1000m heat 1
4. IRAN 04:15.44 lane 6 premier open 1000m semi 1


1. AUSTRALIA 04:10.94 lane 1 premier open 1000m heat 1
2. AUSTRALIA 04:12.07 lane 6 premier open 1000m semi 2
3. AUSTRALIA 04:12.77 lane 4 premier open 1000m rep.1
4. AUSTRALIA 04:12.92 lane 2 premier open 1000m minor final

Premier Mixed
1. CANADA 02:02.424 lane 1 premier mixed 500m grand final
2. CANADA 02:05.078 lane 4 premier mixed 500m semi 2
3. CANADA 02:06.983 lane 4 premier mixed 500m heat 1

Senior Mixed
1. AUSTRALIA 02:08.321 lane 1 senior a mixed 500m grand final
2. AUSTRALIA 02:09.644 lane 4 senior a mixed 500m semi 1
3. AUSTRALIA 02:10.207 lane 5 senior a mixed 500m heat 2



 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 5:09 PM 

"That was one hell of a wave the US produced to propel Chine 2 + boat lengths ahead of them in just a 500 meter race dealing with the shallows.

How is it the shallows didn't effect China? Were they using magic paddles? Did they levitate over the shallows? Did they send a billion China men out there to dig out the lane prior to the race? NO WAY! The US was way better and China took advantage of their hard work and road a wave they produced because they were the STRONGEST non-asian team in the WORLD! Bob said so.

That's some very funny ****!"

Obviously this person doesn't have a clue about boat and water dynamics and how boats and depth can impact. get out of the dragon boat and try some other paddle sport racing, like marathon and you'll learn real quick how boats get impacted by others and water depths. As light weight paddler myself, I've been able to drop a competitor back several waves in a matter of seconds, taking advantage of certain water depths.

I would bet the US tried to jump China's wave and given China has an incredible start, the US ends up providing assistance. but then not able to keep up because of the wall of water they are creating with their bow and waves that China is producing adding to it. And just like a boat can get a pull riding a wave (if they're on it correctly) another boat can get a push from one behind it.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 5:44 PM 

"I would bet the US tried to jump China's wave and given China has an incredible start, the US ends up providing assistance. but then not able to keep up because of the wall of water they are creating with their bow and waves that China is producing adding to it. And just like a boat can get a pull riding a wave (if they're on it correctly) another boat can get a push from one behind it."

Huh?! I get the whole riding the lead boat's wake, and can believe that it actually slows down the lead boat or at the very least prevents it from breaking away from the pack. But now the trailing boat creates a wake that will benefit the lead boat?! Maybe we need some Einstein here on fluid dyanmics to explain that part, because in all honesty that sounds BS to me.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 6:29 PM 

Whichever poster suggested the US got a good start and then pulled the CHinese along can't have raced in a Premier Opens race at a world championships before.

Even in Sydney the Chinese killed the US off the start, the US are notorious for awfully slow starts, and poor 200m racing but their strength is in their fitness and in the 2nd half of races pull crews in i.e philippines in 2007.

The facts are that if you got on another crews wash you had an easy ride where you could conserve some energy till your sweep called you up and you tried to break off for the finish line.

Another fact is that if you had the philippines or china next to you, they are so fast off the start that in Prague with the shallow course and the massive wash created from it that if you fall off their initial wave created by them then you basically kissed a top 2 or 3 finish goodbye.

If anyone was standing near the finish line for the Premier Open 500m Final then they would have seen Russia coming home with a wet sail sitting on the philippines wash and almost beating them into 2nd place because of it. Essentially the Filo guys were doing all the work and the Russians got pulled along - admiteddly the Russians would have had to have worked hard to maintain the wave, but still wouldn't have had to paddle as hard as the filo guys who looked spent at the end.

One thing i'm unsure of is whether or not having a crew wash riding you slows your boat down. I.e does the lead boat breaking teh water have some slowing effect put on it when a crew sits on their wash. When I look at situations where it occurs it looks like the lead team is being sucked back by the boat wash riding it but I can't think of any science that would prove it.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 7:55 PM 

no one suggested that the US pulled China.

The rest of the post is spot on though. Where the front team CAN get a benefit is in shallow water. It's a matter of getting in FRONT of the wave. Canoers do it all the time. Your boat creates a wave and as it approaches shallow water the wave gets bigger. and can slow the boat. Like going up hill. However, if you hit it hard enough (and the lighter the better) you can actually get on this wave. We call it "popping the boat" The boat actually rides on the wave instead of pushing it. Canoers usually do this by cranking the stroke rate up several notches. Kind of like the Chinese do.

China would be pushing less water in the front than the US would because they are lighter. And given their incredible start could get out front of team USAs wave and pop it onto their own.


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 8:13 PM 

OK, so bare with me here.

While it is not always the case that stronger means bigger, it isn't unrealistic to assume that that is the case to some extent.

If we can agree that overall the bigger guys are the stronger guys at the international level (for arguments sake) then what is the breakdown for an effective start.

I would expect (and maybe I am wrong) that the big strong team has a distinct power advantage at the start. At what point does that change based on being X amount lighter?

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 4 2009, 8:50 PM 

Thats like asking how long a proverbial piece of string is. There is never one correct answer and differs club to club, country to country.

Remember Power is a combination of strength and speed so the biggest and strongest crew in the world counts for nothing if they don't have speed through the water. Same goes for a lightweight high rating crew who might not have any strength.

The common mistake people make is assuming big guys are stronger than little guys, whereas i'll guarantee the philippines guys would probably out do alot of western countries guys in the gym, as well as being fitter and having more water endurance too. Then you add the fact their average weight was roughly 72/73 kg's and you realise they are carrying along maybe 200 - 300 kg less weight on their boat which counts for alot.

No one will ever prove one start to be more effective than another scientifically because there are too many variables at play. There is a general principle though that as you add pace to the boat in the start sequence you should add rate to a certain point where any further increase in rate does not give you any more speed and would be of detriment to the rest of your race. Thats where you need experienced coaches to step in to tell a crew at what point that is.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 5 2009, 1:23 AM 

and it's not necessarily overall strength. Hell, then you'd be recruiting guys from the football team and strong man competition and the weight lifting teams.

It's all about strength to weight ratio!

I'd rather have 20 guys at 150 lbs that can do 50 chin-ups than 200 lb guys that can do 20. (7500 lbs lifted vs. 4000) While the 200 lb guys might be able to lift more (one rep max) the lighter guys will be able to lift themselves quicker and more times.

I've been on a team where the lightest guy (me) and one of the biggest guys set the fastest times in time trials. And in the dragon boat I end up having to pull more weight (percentage) than he does. (take the whole team weight divided by paddlers, the smaller guy is pulling a higher percentage of weight vs his body weight than the bigger guy).

While theoritically bigger guys are stronger, they are also pulling more weight (individual test). I've seen lighter guys smoke bigger guys in head to head competition.

Now if every big guy on the team could pull like the smaller guy (same number of reps = 10.000 lbs), I'd take a team of big guys. But this seldom occurs.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 5 2009, 8:03 PM 

[imghttp://lethalweaponphoto.smugmug.com/Other/PragueIDBFWorlds2009/9494259_XaVtS#639043797_tH5YN[/img]


this picture shows a good example of some of the problems w/ the lanes ,notice how the stern is sucked down and bow is up on a roller ,made for tough paddling

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 6 2009, 12:25 AM 

This thread proves that regardless at what level the competiton may be at, local, club crew, or worlds, the best team does not always win, and the true winners don't always go home with the gold. And so what is my point, nothing ever changes on this forum. Losers will always find excuses.

That is all, I have spoken.

Diego Montoya


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 9 2009, 5:50 PM 

The issue has nothing to do with excuses, rather IDBF's failure to do its job. IDBF is tasked with ensuring their standards are maintained in any IDBF SANCTIONED event, at least to ensure some fairness in the racing conditions. The Racice facility hosted the ICF World Championships in canoe and kayaking just weeks/months earlier, the water depth didn't impact the results. IDBF forgot the uniqueness of dragon boating to other paddling sports by failing to recognize the impact of shallow water on heavier dragon boats in the hands of national championships teams! To have sand bars dotting an already shallow race course is something that should have been addressed, especially with spots with less than 2 meters of water depth. The facility managers had to know this! Anyone having to do with laying out the race course knew this as they had to adjust the lanes from the 9 lanes for canoe races to 6 lanes for dragon boating. If someone owned up to this information, then the adjustment made on the final day of racing would have been made on day 1!


 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 9 2009, 6:00 PM 

"Racice facility hosted the ICF World Championships in canoe and kayaking just weeks/months earlier"

Worlds were in Dartmouth buddy.

And it was the U23 Rowing Championships.

I understand your point, but the factual inaccuracy takes away from your argument.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 9 2009, 8:37 PM 

I will dump on the IDBF any chance I get but the problems with the course were not the fault of the IDBF. The water level on the course had obviously droped about 2 meters recently , the previous water level was visible on the banks. The course would have been fine when it was checked. The organizers cannot do much about the effects of a dry spell. I have been to 4 other worlds and 2 club crews previously and the courses have always been fine ( I was not in Rome or South Africa).
The IDBF did screw up in their handling of the lane bias , although they deserve credit for recognizing the problem even if the fix had obvious short comings.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 9 2009, 9:03 PM 

There was an ICF world cup event held on the Racice race course earlier this year. Agreed that the previous poster was incorrect, but relatively recently the ICF had determined that the Racice course was acceptable for a major flatwater canoeing competition. The first ICF masters world championship was also held on the Racice course last weekend (i.e. the weekend after the IDBF worlds).

 
 
Anonymous

Re: Shame on the IDBF: Lane bias at THE WORLDS???

September 10 2009, 11:46 AM 

Anyone who has ever raced on a shallow water course especially one with sand bars knows that it skews racing results. Montreal is shallow and bus rides take slower teams to the finals every year lane 1 has been an issue that the organizers recognized up there. In the USA the prototypical shallow water course is Flushing and we see crazy results out of there all the time like when the Fujianese won a race a few years back. You just don't expect this at the Worlds and it is a lesson for the future, there is nothing more important than the water depth in picking a dragon boat course. While some are undoubtedly happy after Prague probably all of the top level teams are likely frustrated to a degree as each of them can probably point to an opportunity missed attributable to lane issues.

As an example, in the 1000 semifinal, Canada by virtue of beating the Slovaks by 0.01 seconds went from likely Gold to no medal in the final. On the other hand Canada had lane 1 in that semifinal and a team like China, based on their time in the reps in the same lane as Canada albeit a different rep, are thinking Canada got into the finals and they didn't because of lane 1. It is nutty to have this kind of thing in the worlds.

PREMIER OPEN 1000m SEMI 2
1. PHILIPPINES 04:06.10 Lane 3
2. CANADA 04:07.97 Lane 1
3. SLOVAK REP 04:07.98 Lane 2
4. RUSSIA 04:10.64 Lane 4
5. CHINA 04:11.63 Lane 5
6. AUSTRALIA 04:12.07 Lane 6

PREMIER OPEN 1000m REP.1
1. CHINA 04:08.52 lane 3
2. SINGAPORE 04:09.74 lane 2
3. IRAN 04:12.76 lane 5
4. AUSTRALIA 04:12.77 lane 4
5. SOUTH AFRICA 04:22.90 lane 1

(No: 49) PREMIER OPEN 1000m REP.2
1. HUNGARY 04:13.07 lane 2
2. CANADA 04:13.52 lane 3
3. GREAT BRITAIN 04:14.04 lane 4
4. MACAU 04:14.28 lane 5
5. INDIA DNS

 
 
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