This deserves a separate thread.

This was posted on the "Live results from Worlds" thread in response to the U.S. Premier Open finishing 7th in the point standings...

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"The point system doesn't determine a team's performance. You are ignoring the fact that they [U.S. Premier Open] were the STRONGEST of any non-Asian team. They won gold handily in the 2000 and got silver in the 1000 (which would have been gold excepting lane 1). These are the distances you expect the non-Asian teams to compete well in and they stepped up to the plate big time. In the only place where it counts, the number of Premier Open medals, the USA tied the Phillipines for second. Phillipines won gold in the 200 and silver in the 500. China had three medals: silver in the 2000 and 200 and gold in the 500 for the clear first place.

And all of those other teams you said would keep the USA out of the medals did very little. CZE = 2 bronze, RUS and GER 1 bronze each, Slovaks got a tainted gold out of lane 1. HUN = zippo, GBR triple medalist in Sydney = zippo. The best shot for a Canadian Premier medal was in the 1000 and the BS Slovak win screwed them as they finished fourth just an hour or so after beating the Slovaks head to head in the semi.

US team likely wanted more but to come home world champion is something only 4 Premier Open teams can say and one of them knows it had a lot to do with a lane draw. The USA has nothing to apologize for on this shallow water course."

From the shame on IDBF thread. Might as well group this together as well before all the threads get clogged up with the epic struggle again.


September 1 2009, 9:43 AM let the US excuses begin. I say excuses because attempts to justify the result already started on another thread.

Perhaps your time would be better spent coming up with excuses for for why you went from 1st to 4th and not how other crews got bonus wins. I guess you were on a different course and were the only ones contending with the course issues?

You just didn't do as well this time around. That's it, that's all. 4th in this tough field isn't anything to sneeze at, but feel free to point fingers at other good fortune as explanation for your lower than desired (expected?) results.

Heck I guess if we can have days gone Canadian Team paddlers jumping up and down for recognition that they could have done better than the current teams very respectable 2nd, your entitled to your excuses as well.

Can we make this a combo US excuses/Canadian Flaties/teams of Old could have done better thread?

That we we can just ignore the one thread and kill two birds with one stone.

Hypocrites.

Two years ago, when you (U.S) won the Nations Cup, that's all we heard about: Nations Cup, Nations Cup, Nations Cup. Your coach even published irrelevant photos of your team holding the cup with his opinion piece about the ICF in the most recent issue of the DB magazine. Fine, you won the Nations Cup and you were proud of that, but...

The Cup was awarded to you because the U.S. Premier teams earned the most points in Sydney. That same point system says that the U.S. Premier Open team finished 7th in Prague. If your Premier teams were 1st in Sydney, your Premier Open team is 7th in Prague.

In 2009, You insist that medals are all the matters. If so, please notify the IDBF immediately that you are giving the 2007 Nations Cup to Canada because in 2007 Canada's Premier teams won more medals (5 Gold, 1 Silver) than the U.S. (4 Gold, 1 Silver). Will you be willing to relinquish the Cup to Canada? Or just accept that you had the 7th best Premier Open team in Prague?

"The point system doesn't determine a team's performance."

Are you FOR REAL?? That point system won you the Nations Cup in Sydney!!!! Now it doesn't determine a team's performance. I LOVE it.

"You are ignoring the fact that they [U.S. Premier Open] were the STRONGEST of any non-Asian team."


The Asians don't count now? They were in Sydney, too, and you beat them there.

The 200 proved that you were far from the "strongest" non-Asian team. You came in 13th. If any race is a test of strength, it's the 200. You could claim that you were the "fittest" since you did very well in the 1000 and 2000. But "strongest"???

This thread will be good.

Hang one a sec. I am going to go get my recliner and popcorn machine from the M vs. B thread and bring it over here.

Everyone seems to be jumping on this being a USA excuse thread.
I don't see it that way at all - maybe the rationale wasn't the best explanation
from the original writer.

If the Worlds had been held at Welland, where every lane is 8m deep.
Then we might be able to tell the true strength of each crew at each distance.

However, the Championships are over - they were run on a shallow course that
favours lightweight crews with a high rate stroke, the course itself had dramatic
lane issues which some crews picked up on and others didn't till too late.
And, then you made a huge gamble to try and get an outside lane.

Go away, we don't need that kind of sensibility here.

PS. The outside lanes are no picnic in Welland either. Depending on temperatures etc in the months preceding your will find plenty of weeds there. Unless you are racing on the middle of a lake and it is preferably enclosed there just isn't a perfect venue. It's the same for all events. Sure it sounds like there were some even worse than usual issues in Prague, but that's how it goes.

US men gold and silver, World Champions in the 2K.

Canadian men shutout.

1000 meter race Canadian women get beat by the US women head to head.

Enough said, the first result is more of the same from Sydney and you are stunned by the second result.

China was the class of the field and the entire US Premier team stayed around to cheer and congratulate them at the awarding of the Nations Cup. Where was the Canadian Premier team at the time?

Get over it and hope that the flatties come back to save your national pride in the men's races. Meanwhile the US men will hang up another gold and silver on the wall.

"The USA has nothing to apologize for on this shallow water course."


It was the course that caused your mediocre result? Explain this:

In the most important single race, the 500 Final, you were in Lane 4. China was in Lane 5. Adjacent lanes, both with no apparent advantage. China beat you by EIGHT SECONDS and won Gold.

You were adjacent to the fastest team in the final and you still finished last.

Germany -- a non-Asian team that you claim to be stronger than -- was adjacent to you in Lane 3. They beat you by THREE SECONDS.

Canada 2nd, US 4th.

I think your forgetting a few race results in your smack down there. In any case, I think you are wrong in assuming that it is anyone from Canada who is giving you a hard time over your results.

U.S. Premier Open: "World Champions in the 2K"

Well whoop-dee-doo. The uncertain nature of the 2000 dictates that the results from the 2000's do not count toward Nations Cup points.

Your silver in the 1000 is the real deal.

"China was the class of the field and the entire US Premier team stayed around to cheer and congratulate them at the awarding of the Nations Cup. Where was the Canadian Premier team at the time?"

Nice. The U.S. hangs around to cheer the Chinese but at the 2008 Nationals award ceremony, they abandoned their own junior team, who came in 2nd.

The Canadian men were certainly better than the US men because in the:
2000 Canada finished 8th and the US won (remind you now doesn't count towards the points!)
1000 Canada finished 4th and the US got the silver
500 Canada did not make the final but the US did
200 Canada...... well there it is! That was the difference!!! Canada made the final of the 200 and the US got relegated to the tail race so we have more points even though they have more medals. Certainly we can all agree that because of that the Canadian men are clearly better than the US men.

What a load of crap.

This is pretty funny, Canadians or maybe its American self haters want to discount medal totals and go by the point system to try and say the US men were the 7th best Premier team when they have gold and silver in a 4 event world championship regatta swinging around their neck.

I'll bet every team with more "points" and no gold would trade it all for one gold medal let alone an additional silver. Maybe you guys can get them to stop counting and reporting on medal totals in the Olympics and World Championships of the various other sports.

What a bunch of twits. Sorry US team haters, they have 2 more years of being able to call themselves world champions and their "world record" still stands to piss you off even more!

U.S. Premier Open: "World Champions in the 2K"
Well whoop-dee-doo. The uncertain nature of the 2000 dictates that the results from the 2000's do not count toward Nations Cup points.
Your silver in the 1000 is the real deal.

Hmmm,
On the other hand, on this particular course the 2000 was arguably more fair than many other races as each team traversed roughly the same path without express lane advantages.

what an embarrassment

guess the US lacked the stamina as the event went on, how else to you explain this?

"The Canadian men were certainly better than the US men because in the:
2000 Canada finished 8th and the US won (remind you now doesn't count towards the points!)
1000 Canada finished 4th and the US got the silver
500 Canada did not make the final but the US did
200 Canada...... well there it is! That was the difference!!! Canada made the final of the 200 and the US got relegated to the tail race so we have more points even though they have more medals. Certainly we can all agree that because of that the Canadian men are clearly better than the US men."


OK, you're right. Only medals matter. Then Canada won the Nations Cup in 2007!! The U.S. should immediately relinquish the 2007 Cup to Canada!

let's hear from the coach. Well voice of God?

U.S. logic: only medals matter, except when you win the Nations Cup.

"Nice. The U.S. hangs around to cheer the Chinese but at the 2008 Nationals award ceremony, they abandoned their own junior team, who came in 2nd."

There it is, now they have revealed themselves. It is the US self haters (we all know who they are) who have started this "Excuses" thread and stirred this crap up not the Canadians. Let's move on before we start discussing world records again.

Congrats to all the US and Canadian paddlers who came home with hardware of whatever color.

I also thought that all of the Premier classes counted and not just the Open?

While some counties (even many countries) may only care about the Premier Open, that's not how we roll here in Canada. Love it or hate it, we like Mixed and Women's just as much.

Any comparison of results that doesn't include all three for us is pretty much blah blah blah.

I'm also not sure why you are so bent on comparing yourselves to Canada when we are only one of three Countries that beat you. You weren't even our competition it would seem.

Stop feeding a bunch of Americans fighting themselves.
If you can't read into this thread by now, that its the same
individuals that don't like the way the system is run in the USA
that are trying to make it some crisis or rallying point for change.

The results stand as they are.

This thread is really about the U.S. Men's performane. Their women did quite well, even better than Sydney.

"If you can't read into this thread by now, that its the same
individuals that don't like the way the system is run in the USA
that are trying to make it some crisis or rallying point for change."

Nah. It's not that deep. Someone from the U.S. posted excuses for their 7th-place men's finish. Did you expect that to go unanswered around here?

The U.S. system is actually in a great place right now. The rival factions now both have their own separate organizations (USDBF and USACK).

What a bunch of crap!

USA lost, get over it. USA obviously didn't have the superior team at this World's

Just to correct the medal counts of the PREMIER teams in Sydney:

Premier (Open, Mixed, Women)
Canada women 1000 - Gold
Canada women 500 - Gold
Canada women 200 - Gold
Canada Mixed 500 - Silver

USA Open 1000 - Gold
USA Open 500 - Gold
USA Mixed 500 - Gold
USA Mixed 200 - Silver

http://www.dragonboatnet.com/WM-Sydney.php

It is clear that there were lane issues - all one has to do is look at the results and see how teams' times were impacted by lane assignment. very similar to how USA won the 500 in 1997 with a superior lane assignment.
It's very sad that any IDBF event has lane issues, let alone A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP!!! This should be top priority of any World Championship - to ensure fair races.
But it's clear from posts above - that can't always be the excuse.

Take a break, then focus on the next one.

"This thread is really about the U.S. Men's performance. Their women did quite well, even better than Sydney."

But they will ignore that even though it is the same system and the same coach who put the women's team together. The US women won 4 Premier medals, and I believe they only had one prior medal at that level. The men's performance with the exception of Sydney is better than they have ever done before too. When they took gold in Shanghai in the 1000 they earned no other medals. Doubt anyone can make a case for change based on these results.

I'm betting they will at least try. Otherwise I will have to move my chair and popcorn elsewhere.

My money is on this thread hitting 100 posts by end of day.

We haven't even started on how Canada could have done better with paddlers from yesteryear.

Pretty funny how the teams from World Games were slammed and discredited. Posters sighted that the 45 mile per hour swirling heads winds from a typhoon were nothing more than a weak excuse and all teams were sub par. What do call this? Is this a rational explanation? Do you deserve the benefit of the doubt?

All previous posters did was to focus in on times from World Games. Shall we do the same? Shall we focus in on just times?

Can we have a little fun with this?

How about IDBF and ICF events? Was this IDBF event up to "World Championship" standards? Did the IDBF invest in the event to ensure all lanes were up to standards? Did they care? Were they aware? Hum, what happened with the World Games course, I wonder. Shall we go down that path as to what was invested to ensure a true "World Championship Course" at World Games?

If you think this course was troublesome, wait till Tampa.

How about 2001 in Philly or 1997 in Hong Kong? Were these IDBF events held on a World Championship Courses? Were there lane issues? Were the results tainted? Who shall we ask for the most believable answer?

How about that World Record Team holding "World records"? Were you in a faster lane when that happened in Sydney? Because I'm confused why you did not come close to that time, medal or not. Shall we entertain this?

Is there even such a record? Shall we go down this path?

USA Premier Men, "the strongest non-asian team" making excuses over the 200 and 500. Hum, why none for the 2000 and 1000?

I wonder.

I really wonder.

this is getting good.

Canada is better than the US. Period. End of thread. Let's move on.

"Just to correct the medal counts of the PREMIER teams in Sydney:"

That medal count does not include the Canadian Golds in the 2000's in Sydney. That's why Canada had the edge over the U.S. there.

If the U.S. wants to hang its hat on the 2000 Gold in Prague, then they have to count all the Premier medals in Sydney. Canada Premier teams had more medals in Sydney and deserve the 2007 Cup, too.

Cry me a river, we won you lost.

That darn pesky IDBF keeps creating all these excuses. Why can't they just run a decent, fair event so the *&%#in Americans stop with their crap?

"the STRONGEST of any non-Asian team"


That's preposterous at best and racist at worst. Imagine if a white Olympic sprinter was quoted as saying "I was the fastest non-black guy in the 100." He'd get reamed for that.

USA paddlers, see through the ruse. This thread is NOT Canadians bashing the USA but our own home grown disgruntled element. It was predictable that we would come home to someone finding fault with something or the other and trying to stir up stuff on the forum.

Congratulations to Canada and thanks for great racing in Prague. There was great cross support between the Canadian and US team in Prague and mutual respect. We spent many a moment collectively shaking heads at the course but at the end of the day each team did very well in its own right. Hope to see many of you in Tampa where it will be deep water. We will send you a few manatees to practice with:)

" It was predictable that we would come home to someone finding fault with something or the other and trying to stir up stuff on the forum. "


It was clearly a U.S. Prague paddler who made all the excuses for the Men's team. Stop blaming this on others.

Have to agree, this really feels like a homegrown US fight.
The Canada and US teams had no problem with each other or the results.

Hum, what? No excuses for the US women who held it together? NICE JOB LADIES!

Annnnd, hum, no excuses from Canadian Senior Men who did it with consistency. No blame game there. Total class act!

It's extremely transparent who you are. You lost all credibility by making ridiculous excuses, disrespecting other National Teams and now your once again playing the blame game and blaming others in the states. How do those dots connect?

You're the idiot who wrote the Slovaks got a tainted medal out of lane 1 and you should have won that. BOO ****in who. Don't play that way, you're a manipulative ego maniac Coach and that's extremely disrespectful to the World Champs of the 1000 meter race. Yes, another team with a Gold around their neck.

Hey Bob, you just embarrassed the US by going from "World Record Holder" and "Winner of the Nations Cup" to 7th place with your sub par performance with your Premier men, thank God for your women, now where are you going?

Bob: I'm heading to my computer so I can get on the Forum and blame others for my shortcomings. That's the way I roll! When the US wins it's because I'm great and when we don't, well, it's just the net effect of others! There's no way the Slovaks are better than us. No way are we 7th best. I'll show them.

Classless!

"Re: The U.S. excuses have begun September 1 2009, 10:57 AM


"You are ignoring the fact that they [U.S. Premier Open] were the STRONGEST of any non-Asian team."


The Asians don't count now? They were in Sydney, too, and you beat them there.

The 200 proved that you were far from the "strongest" non-Asian team. You came in 13th. If any race is a test of strength, it's the 200. You could claim that you were the "fittest" since you did very well in the 1000 and 2000. But "strongest"??? "

13th! WOW! Really?????

Strongest? WOW WEE! How was that tested? Oh yeh, in the 200!!!!!

Well done! I'm impressed.

At times it seems like the same person arguing against themselves. I'm so lost by this thread and all of the individuals involved.

There was never any expectation for it to be structured.

Just a bunch af mindless rantings back and forth. Once the other side shows up it should really start to spiral into the dirty hole we are all waiting for.

they were run on a shallow course that
favours lightweight crews with a high rate stroke....

that would be the beauty of the sport ladies, next time, do your homework and take the right paddlers with you. when the water is deep and favors heavier boats will the lighter boats complain?

just suck it up, take pride in what you won, train harder for tampa because paybacks a **tch.

"that would be the beauty of the sport ladies, next time, do your homework and take the right paddlers with you. when the water is deep and favors heavier boats will the lighter boats complain? "

Very true. Seems like the US took quite a few top outrigger paddlers. Those guys are good in longer distances. But in a 200? They've never paddled at the stroke rates required to win these short sprints.

Have you ever actually paddled OC?

Wow. This is HILARIOUS! US paddlers need to get a grip on reality.

USA win... LOOK AT ME!!!!

USA lose... WE'RE STILL THE BEST (white people)!!!

The USA are a f*cking joke. This thread lives up to the navel gazing, self-importance that the ignorant Americans portray to the rest of the world in most instances.

And, we haven't seen anonymous posters helping to flame stuff for fun.

"Hey Bob, you just embarrassed the US by going from "World Record Holder" and "Winner of the Nations Cup" to 7th place with your sub par performance with your Premier men, thank God for your women, now where are you going? "

Disney World? Is that the right answer? Oh wait, no that is where you go with your team instead of Prague when you don't qualify.

Anyway, good to see the forum in fine form. Let me see if I can add to the entertainment value.

Can you define "par" for a men's team at worlds so I can get a handle on things and figure out what you mean by subpar? How many medals is par? Our men got 2 in Prague, 3 in Sydney. Is par 2.5 or was 3 par? Did China with 3 men's medals perform at or above par in Prague? Were you golfing when we were in Prague, is that how you came up with this you smart guy you?

I will talk to the guys about sending the medals back since the astute, unbiased analysts here clearly point out that we were only the 7th best men's team. Dang we even sang the anthem, they fooled us over there.

Since you want to stay on the world record holder theme for another two years we will make sure it stays up on the web site. Have one of your guys get in touch with the Phillipines team. They gave out shirts in Prague that celebrated their world record in Sydney and you better catch them before they do the same with their 2009 time.

Thanks for the compliment about the women, not sure if you know I coached them too but it is really nice of you to notice them.

Thanks also for reminding me that we "abandoned" our youth in Long Beach, we made up for it watching them get the gold hung around their neck in the U16 in Prague. Too bad no other US junior team that raced in Long Beach went to Prague, I guess they were just abandoned for the 2009 season, huh? You might of even had a chance to medal out of lane 1 in Prague but you had to be there to get that chance.

Enjoy Disney World this year but the Czech beer was better than what you can find there.

"Disney World? Is that the right answer? Oh wait, no that is where you go with your team instead of Prague when you don't qualify."


Good one!

"Thanks also for reminding me that we "abandoned" our youth in Long Beach, we made up for it watching them get the gold hung around their neck in the U16 in Prague."


Come on now. There were two teams in that U16 race. A team of U16 pygmies could have entered that race and won a bronze medal at worst.

Thank you for recognizing we are not bashing you.

A bunch of us Premier division paddlers were at your after-party across from the Clarion and we enjoyed your hospitality. Thanks for treating us to beer, food, dancing and an overall good time. At the end of the day despite the fact that we are competitive people the vast majority of all athletes at the worlds can leave our rivalries on the water - which is they way that it should be.

"Thank you for recognizing we are not bashing you."

too funny how this guy likes to make it appear he's having conversations with others

"You're the idiot who wrote the Slovaks got a tainted medal out of lane 1 and you should have won that. BOO ****in who. Don't play that way, you're a manipulative ego maniac Coach and that's extremely disrespectful to the World Champs of the 1000 meter race. Yes, another team with a Gold around their neck."

Funny little Disney reply, I'll give you that, but you should have responded to the paragraph about.

Why no comment? Why the disrespect?

"All previous posters did was to focus in on times from World Games. Shall we do the same? Shall we focus in on just times?

Can we have a little fun with this?"

And why no reply to this? Come on, you can do it.

"How about IDBF and ICF events? Was this IDBF event up to "World Championship" standards? Did the IDBF invest in the event to ensure all lanes were up to standards? Did they care? Were they aware? Hum, what happened with the World Games course, I wonder. Shall we go down that path as to what was invested to ensure a true "World Championship Course" at World Games? "

Hey Coach, this is also quite interesting. You're the "voice of God", care to comment? You can do it, yes you can.

"How about 2001 in Philly or 1997 in Hong Kong? Were these IDBF events held on a World Championship Courses? Were there lane issues? Were the results tainted? Who shall we ask for the most believable answer? "

Oooohh, this one is precious. Can wait to hear your spin. Come on, I know you have a great reply.

"How about that World Record Team holding "World records"? Were you in a faster lane when that happened in Sydney? Because I'm confused why you did not come close to that time, medal or not. Shall we entertain this?

Is there even such a record? Shall we go down this path?"

Glad to hear you'll keep this on your web site, we were all very concerned about that. Who keeps these records? Are they kept for all events ever? Or is this just an IDBF World Record? Because if that's the case, how do we actually know it's a World Record or not, I mean what the heck? Maybe you should keep it confined to "IDBF World Record" because that's what it sounds like, at best, if there is such a thing anyway. And you should probably let the Philippine team know that as well.

Buuut, you know, keep it on the web site. We know the truth.

"USA Premier Men, "the strongest non-asian team" making excuses over the 200 and 500. Hum, why none for the 2000 and 1000?

I wonder.

I really wonder. "

Rather than a nasty reply, how about a few answers. YOU CAN DO IT!

I'm writing this message from Canada. I'm not American. I had some pretty crappy stuff said right to my face from an American paddler after the Premier Mixed 500m but know enough to realize that's one bad apple.

We can have an email exchange to prove it, or I can just call you to tell you who I am.

"Too bad no other US junior team that raced in Long Beach went to Prague, I guess they were just abandoned for the 2009 season, huh? "

Hardly. The kids mean too much to us, that's why we would not subject them to the guy that went out of his way to attempt to cheat them in Long Beach. Key word "CHEAT".

Unlike your reply's, here's an actual answer to a question:

The youth "The 2008 USDBF Youth Open, Women and Mixed National Champions from Long Beach" had a great year of racing, in several events around the country, especially on the West Coast, and will do so again next year. They will also compete at the 2010 ICF World Championships in Hungary. Far from abandoned.

Our priority is on the youth and allowing them to participate without questionable adult participation. The consensus amongst the youth and their parents was to not subject them to you and your questionable behavior. We complied.

That's never been a secret.

It's a beautiful thing that the USDBF runners up were willing and able to go and I'm sure it was a great experience for them. Nothing like a medal around the neck for a kid to feel great about themselves.

So you can stop worrying out the National Champion Youth and accusations of abandonment. They are in fine hands.

"We can have an email exchange to prove it, or I can just call you to tell you who I am."

your email?

Shhhhhhhhhhh, hear that?

Crickets!

Just crickets!

That's weird.

i don't want to reveal myself to the forum either.

email me at network54.anonymous@gmail.com.

from that point on we will connect by phone.

"Come on now. There were two teams in that U16 race. A team of U16 pygmies could have entered that race and won a bronze medal at worst."

You launch into a tirade about the tainted medal comment about the Slovaks and then post this about under 16 kids. And you throw out accusations of "classless"? There were 3 U16 teams awarded medals for that category: USA, Ukraine and Canada and I bet they all think you are swell for making this comment.

After that you really don't deserve an answer to your other rants but I will do so anyway.

The US Hong Kong 500 gold medal benefited from a lane draw in deeper water. I have always recognized that fact and you know it too. My comment to the team BEFORE we took off for that final in Hong Kong was that they put the wrong team in lane 6 referring to how we would be dangerous in that deeper lane. As you well know lane draws earlier in that same regatta cost us a medal in the 1000 as Germany blew past us out of the outside lanes in the second half of the race. Canada and Indonesia certainly have full rights to say our medal in the 500 event was tainted and I would not argue with them.

In an attempt to ease some of their bitterness about the racing conditions in Prague I used that very Hong Kong example when speaking to the USA men after the 1000. I told them when you race long enough you win some and lose some by factors outside your control in the boat. Unfortunately such statements do not erase the frustration one feels surrounding such an event. You call this an excuse. I personally don't care what you think it is. You did enlighten us as to what reasoning you used in Taiwan after getting pasted by 20 plus seconds in the 1000 over there: they were younger and stronger, we did not have enough time to get ready, etc. but those aren't excuses in your mind.

You are from Philly so you know certain lanes in the Schuylkill course are unfair but you also know that NONE of the Canadian men's medals from the 2001 world championships were tainted, they were clearly the best team and would have won from any lane. Your raising questions about those races are more evidence that you are the one without class.

The Prague course was not up to standards that was clear and obvious early on. I personally sought to have lane 1 and 6 removed from the semis and finals. A German paddler came up with the idea to flip the top seeding lanes on the last day and that was agreed to by the coaches present at a meeting Saturday after the races.

The frustration with the course in Prague involved not just gold medals but paddlers feeling they lost medals of other colors. It was across all levels of paddlers from junior to GM. The IDBF will learn from this, they showed great concern for the paddlers and were willing to hear out the coaches and make the change for Sunday.

You state the USA team performance was an embarrassment. Don't you realize how this reflects on you? The teams you think performed so poorly qualified for Prague when they embarrassed your team in Long Beach. What was it third out of three senior teams?

The ICF is sure lucky to have to have your element, I am sure they want coaches who will tear down the achievements of 12-16 year old kids.

Mike, lay off the kids. I posted my name and invite anyone else who has anything to say about the kids to do the same. I steered their races in Prague. They did beat the Ukraine U16 team in the 2000 race by a good distance. They did lose to Canada in the 200 but came back to win the 500 against a Canadian boat that I believe had a few gold medal winners. They showed a lot of heart in the 1000 meter minor final when the New Zealand team jumped out to a length lead after 200 meters but they didn't give up and caught and passed them in the last 50 meters. It was all Philly kids except for one girl.
I do think the course was unfair but it's like a game of poker with a wild card--if you get it---play it for all it's worth. I don't mean any disrespect to the Aussie team but I don't think there is any way that they should have won gold in the Senior 500 meter open. The Canadian senior boat was the best team there and they should not have lost that race to the 5th seed--who happened to get Lane 1. It is not an excuse but a fact. Mike, maybe if you didn't get kicked off the team for many reason including fighting with other team members, you could have made one of the boats and saw for yourself. I have been on the team for years and I think the gold and silver our premier men won was our 2nd best showing in International competition. I know it was the best our women have ever done. You can slam my brother all you want but the bottom line is that he is a great coach. He was the coach for the premier, the senior, the youth and the GM mixed. He coaches the adults in the morning and the kids at night and trains on his own. I see you on the river with what---5 or 6 people in your boat? We have 40-50 at our practices. Every paddler on the US team looks up to him and treats him with respect. Thank goodness you are no longer part of the team.

Canada---way to go. Your whole program did awesome. I must have heard the Canadian anthem about a dozen or more times.

I was incorrect when I listed that the Aussies beat the Canadian Senior Team---I think the Aussies got a medal from lane 1 but it shouldn't have been that close. Sorry for the mistake. Pete

You are likely referring to the below race, Senior mixed 500 won by the Aussies out of lane 1. These results are typical of the lane 1 bias as Australia in that lane beat three teams who had beaten them in their heat earlier.

Final
1 (1) Australia AUS 2:08.321
2 (3) Canada CAN 2:09.313
3 (2) Germany GER 2:09.509
4 (4) USA USA 2:10.017
5 (5) Czech Republic CZE 2:10.571
6 (6) Slovak Republic SVK 2:11.108

Heat
1 (2) USA USA 2:07.356
2 (3) Germany GER 2:08.607
3 (4) Czech Republic CZE 2:09.173
4 (5) Australia AUS 2:10.207
5 (1) Russia RUS DNS

sorry, MacBros, but the comment about the u16 pygmies being able to win a bronze was not from Blundetto. You guys need to chill out. The comment was a joke. You made me laugh when you bragged about your kids winning a gold medal in a two-team race. The fct of the matter is that according to the race results there were no more than two u16 teams in any distance raced. So hanging your hat on your u16's winning a gold medal is just silly. no disrespect was meant AT ALL toward your kids. I'm sure they had an amazing time. Geez.

" Mike, maybe if you didn't get kicked off the team for many reason including fighting with other team members, you could have made one of the boats and saw for yourself."

Now this is new info! Did this Mike dude get into fist fights or verbal fights with team members? Inquiring minds want to know!!

"The ICF is sure lucky to have to have your element, I am sure they want coaches who will tear down the achievements of 12-16 year old kids."

Well played. Redirect the discussion with an irrelevant but effective emotional repeal.

"I see you on the river with what---5 or 6 people in your boat? We have 40-50 at our practices."

How American is that??? What's next, are you going to compare wee-wee size?

Priceless.

Consider...

If Blundetto had won the Head Coach vote and the U.S. team performed exactly as it did in Prague, the Macs would have come on this forum and torn Blundetto apart for allowing the U.S. Men's program to take such a step down. Guaranteed.

"Very true. Seems like the US took quite a few top outrigger paddlers. Those guys are good in longer distances. But in a 200? They've never paddled at the stroke rates required to win these short sprints."

Clearly you've never paddled in or seen OC sprints.

Outrigger paddlers will never cut it against the best in the world i.e China and the Philippines. The physics of moving a 9kg Outrigger + your body weight is entirely different to shifting a 300kg dragon boat plus up to 1900kg of body weight.

Outrigger strokes are ideal when it comes to 500m and beyond but for a 200m race they will get blown off the water every time. Take a look at the worlds in Sydney - the U.S dominated everythign apart from the 200m.

Having said that the Philippines and CHina are so far ahead of the rest of the world over 200m its almost unfair.

MacBros, you should argue your points based on substance and not rhetoric. You finally addressed a few of the questions which were raised because of prior post you made. Bravo!

Your credibility goes out the window when you demonize those who challenge or question you.

"The ICF is sure lucky to have to have your element, I am sure they want coaches who will tear down the achievements of 12-16 year old kids."

Well played. Redirect the discussion with an irrelevant but effective emotional repeal."

Or redirect the attention to the demonized another guy. Let's blame him and not address all the issues raised, with substance.

Nice job on your article in DBWI btw. Very positive. Did your article have anything to do with the ICF and IDBF no longer holding the 2011 World Championships together.

Here is a very positive statement about ICF and IDBF from IDBF Executive President, Mike Haslam which was published in the July IDBF Newsletter:

"The meeting was held in a cordial atmosphere with the main point on the agenda being how both Federations could work together for the benefit of Dragon Boat Sport.
The Federations agreed that there are still significant problems to resolve regarding the responsibility for Dragon Boating at both national and international level. However, progress was made on the hosting of just one World Championships for the sport in 2011."

Without the rhetoric or demonizing anyone or anything, if possible, did your article have anything to do with that break up? Has anyone within the IDBF addressed this with you? It was a very public, negative, stand from a pillar within the IDBF. Clearly in the IDBF newsletter it appeared as if the IDBF and ICF were working with one another. One could sermize that neither the ICF nor the IDBF agreed with your very public negative rhetoric and understood that the sport would be better off if both worked with one another.

Why is it there are no other negative publications from other countries? Is it because those you demonize have gone the ICF/USACK/Dragon Boat USA path?

Can you address this with some substance?

Interesting. That may need a thread of its own.

"Outrigger strokes are ideal when it comes to 500m and beyond but for a 200m race they will get blown off the water every time. Take a look at the worlds in Sydney - the U.S dominated everythign apart from the 200m. "


I love it when people talk about s**t that they know nothing about.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmhW62DoAt0

Although I feel the IDBF is THE governing body and the THE World Championship, I too was a bit taken and surprised by the nasty tone of that article. There is nothing wrong with the ICF participating in the sport. That article could not have helped the situation. I would request Bob McNamara to place his name to a response on this important issue.

"I would request Bob McNamara to place his name to a response on this important issue."

This is pretty funny, an anonymous request to put my name on a response to an accusation by another anonymous detractor. A response that will undoubtedly be met with more anonymous retorts. It's sad to see how these grown men who have already fled to the ICF because they couldn't cut it in the more competitive world of the USDBF and IDBF are still afraid to post their names.

The article speaks for itself. The ICF declined to take on dragon boating when it had a chance, the IDBF then raised the sport to great heights at both the international and national level and the ICF coming in at this late date to try and take over this sport is bogus. What are you missing here? Those who benefited from the IDBF's hard work who are now promoting the ICF's right to control dragon boat are selfish opportunists who do not see or care about the big picture regarding the future of dragon boat.

Why does the ICF want to control dragon boating? Answer that? Do they want to reach out and build the sport at the club and grass roots level? Or do they just want to control it so that dragon boat on its own doesn't become an Olympic sport with canoe and kayak losing its precious slots in the process? You have already heard on another thread that the ICF has ZERO plans to try and take dragon boat to the Olympic level. In fact, the principal reason they want control is to prevent that very occurrence. The ICF has every reason to be paranoid. World wide what is more popular and has better media appeal? Stack the cultural diversity and spectacle of dragon boat against a sport with mostly Europeans kneeling in canoes. What do you think Joe Public would rather watch, the Phillipines team destroying the 200 or high kneel canoeists contorting down a course?

The USACK related self appointed dragon boat national team coaches don't care about any of this. They care about being handed uncontested slots to compete in "world championship" level events to satisfy their own ego. If they were truly interested in seeing dragon boat reach its FULL potential, that of Olympic status, they would not be supporting an organization, the ICF, that wants to abort any possibility of such a future. The article stands as written.

Va'A has what i've seen to be a fairly unusual stroke on an outrigger and has been criticised for actually getting forward and throwing his weight around making the boat jump up and down.

You can hardly draw an inference that he represents all other outriggers simply because he is doing things most outriggers never even do.

"You have already heard on another thread that the ICF has ZERO plans to try and take dragon boat to the Olympic level. In fact, the principal reason they want control is to prevent that very occurrence. The ICF has every reason to be paranoid."

WOW! You just can't stay away from the speculative, non substantive, rhetoric. What? No proof of anything you wrote but you reference prior posts on this, ridiculous, forum? Back to demonizing coaches Dragon Boat USA and making grandiose statements that there is no grass roots effort underway? How would you know what the ICF plans to do?

Funny, you get called out on your BS and you have nothing to say that adds any credibility to any of this.

Folks reading this line of crap, you'll never get this guy to answer anything. He's a bully that interfered with the IDBF and ICF agreement and if there was ever a chance of anything getting to Olympic levels, both would need to work with one another to achieve this. He will see to it that never happens.

Prove otherwise. Your statements here on the forum and in DBWI are substantive to you and your negativity. Yet you have nothing of substance to back any of it.

While your at it, you're a few answers short from above.

You can DO IT! But this time, leave out the rhetoric.

You got to admit there are some pretty sound points being made here, and throughout, and all you have provided is your opinion and no sound answers. Your brother seemed even angry with nothing to support the questions posed.

You just sound angry and defensive. We get it, you believe in the IDBF but you've made some very bold statements. It's logical that both organizations working with one another would help the sport move to the next level. Why would you appose this? Even now your stating the ICF wants to control the sport, but that does not seem likely if they wanted to work with the IDBF.

As an educated man with a position within the IDBF board, surly you have something to back these statements. Share it. Put this to rest appropriately.

Cooooooaaach,

Let's not get distracted by redirecting the thread from it's original post by demonizing others and not answering the questions. So far, too few answers, mostly rhetoric. Why not address this passage which started the thread:

"The point system doesn't determine a team's performance. You are ignoring the fact that they [U.S. Premier Open] were the STRONGEST of any non-Asian team. They won gold handily in the 2000 and got silver in the 1000 (which would have been gold excepting lane 1). These are the distances you expect the non-Asian teams to compete well in and they stepped up to the plate big time. In the only place where it counts, the number of Premier Open medals, the USA tied the Philippines for second."

"The point system does not determine a team's performance"? Why, because you were 7th in the points? The July issue of DBWI was an article about IDBF, nasty as it was, clearly an opinion piece with nothing to support your opinion. A photo and caption next to that article of the US holding the Nation's cup? How was that relevant to your nasty rant? Points do matter to you, that's why you provided that photo. That's why your why your web site staes the same. Do you really think we're all that stupid?

Simple question: Does the point system matter?

"They" (the US) "won gold handily in the 200 and got silver in the 1000 (which would have been gold excepting lane 1)". Really? Are you OK with that statement because it smacks of disrespect to the gold medal WORLD Champions. Clearly a speculation. Lane 1 did not win in the 500 Grand Final. Why did China win? Why didn't lane 1 win in the 500?

Simple question: Do you understand statements such as this are uncalled for and do you agree with it?

"The US Premier Open were the STRONGEST " (in BOLD) "of any non- Asian team". Really? As coach, are you OK with that statement? It is racist, speculative and in poor taste.

Simple question: Do you agree with this?

Lastly, these questions have been presented to you several ways. You have clearly taken the time to address harbored issues from your past without taking time to address these very important current issues.

Simple question: Why is that?

this is getting good

popcorn?

I think I just heard the faint sound of a flying clipboard!

Holy sh*t! You Americans are pathetic. No wonder you came in 7th.

The domestic dragonboat scene is a mess and you only have yourselves to blame!

Whatever.

(yawn)

No facts to back up my statements about the ICF? Read the words of the leader of your organization.

Below is from ICF web site. This interview with the ICF President should blow a fatal hole in the hopes of anyone that the ICF would use one ounce of energy to try and make dragon boat an Olympic event.


Monday, 13 July 2009

Interview with Jose Perurena, the ICF President

What do you think is the place of Dragon Boat among the other Non-Olympic Canoeing disciplines such as Whitewater Canoeing, Canoe Polo, Canoe Freestyle and Canoe Sailing?

Mr. Perurena: Unfortunately, in the Olympic Games there is a limit on the maximum number of athletes for each sport, so its very difficult to introduce other sports. In Dragon Boat there are 25 athletes in one boat; therefore, we would need 330 athletes in all. That makes it very difficult to enter a new discipline into the Olympic Games with this number of athletes.

So far, the only person here to support Bob McNamara's point of view is...

...his brother!!!

Bob McNamara actually wrote this: "You have already heard on another thread that the ICF has ZERO plans to try and take dragon boat to the Olympic level. In fact, the principal reason they want control is to prevent that very occurrence. The ICF has every reason to be paranoid."


McNamara, how do you know this is a fact? Please cite your sources before making accusations like this.

This accusation sounds ridiculous anyway. The Olympics just added a couple of new sports and did NOT remove canoe and kayak.

McNamara continues: "What do you think Joe Public would rather watch, the Phillipines team destroying the 200 or high kneel canoeists contorting down a course?"


Well, there you have it folks. The U.S. coach just dissed the flatties.

Jose Perurena made an astute observation. It's very difficult to get into the Olympics. Why would that be devastating to the effort?

Here too is from the July IDBF newsletter stating virtually the same info:

"Once the IDBF has become an IOC Olympic Federation the process of applying for inclusion in a future Olympic Games can start.

Again there are many criteria to be met, one being that 75 IDBF Members should be recognised national governing bodies for the sport. Finally, having got to the stage of being a candidate for inclusion, the sport will have to go through the selection process reported on in the IOC Press Release above.

Assuming that we meet all the IOC criteria say 4 years for each stage and that the IDBF is not opposed by anyone (the ICF already claims to represent all paddling activities within the Olympic Family). Then assuming that there were no other candidates vying for Olympic Games inclusion, the IOC would make its decision around 8 years before the sport would actually appear in an Olympic Games.

That gives us a rough time scale of around 16-20 years, minimum, from 2010 before the first Dragon Boats would race down an Olympic Games Regatta Course."

Guess you never got the memo.

Don't see the difference.

What the ****?

That letter from the ICF President states a fact. It's difficult. What's wrong with you man?

No substance.

Answer the questions!

Let's see: The ICF wants to take over dragon boat, which the most popular paddle sport in the world and which has decent spectator appeal and enormous commercial potential. And they want to control it to prevent this HUGE spectator and athlete vacuum from sucking up all their canoe & kayak spectators and athletes. Does anyone else see how ludicrous that is?

The spectator and commercial appeal of canoe/kayak pales in comparison to what dragon boat could draw and the paddle sport athlete pool would expand by leaps and bounds. Yet the ICF wants to control it because they don't want to see paddle sports grow internationally?

They want to maintain their little aquarium of fish by capturing the big whale migration and putting it in the zoo to prevent it from swimming.


Yeah, I get it!

"No facts to back up my statements about the ICF? Read the words of the leader of your organization."

If this is the best you can come up with to support the nastiness you wrote in DBWI, and again here, then I think it's time you think about retiring.

Are you OK? Because this states nothing that would provoke a normal human being to lash out the way you have.

It's very disturbing and a bit scary.

You must have been the reason for the break up between to two federations. Who else has done such a thing?

McNamara: "The USACK related self appointed dragon boat national team coaches don't care about any of this. They care about being handed uncontested slots to compete in "world championship" level events to satisfy their own ego. If they were truly interested in seeing dragon boat reach its FULL potential, that of Olympic status, they would not be supporting an organization, the ICF, that wants to abort any possibility of such a future."


Let us get this straight. You are vehement in your not wanting anyone to support the ICF's move into dragonboating. And Ross Flemer, the captain and top recruiter of YOUR U.S. national team for the IDBF Worlds, is the ICF Director of Non-Olympic Sports. That includes dragonboating.

Your captain, Ross, is an ICF director. You don't seem to have a problem with Ross.

Mike Blundetto is an ICF regional director. You have a BIG problem with that.

Seems to me that the problem you have is not with the ICF, but with Blundetto only.

I would like scary man to address the other issues from above.

Oooooooh, I think I may have heard another clip board hurling through the air.

Temper, temper.

100

popcorn here!

get your propcorn here!

"Oooooooh, I think I may have heard another clip board hurling through the air.
Temper, temper."

Very interesting comment. Is this one from the hero coach who had to paddle with the hand he broke punching a wall in Taiwan?

I laughed when I saw the clipboard comment - just one of the many crazy memories of the unbalanced U.S. coach acting out at worlds. Dragonboat is the only place he'd be tolerated. The fact that he contributes endless posts to this forum is a good indication of his lack of professionalism.

"They won gold handily in the 2000 and got silver in the 1000"

And the bottom line to the venom on this thread is that certain elements of the Manayunk team are sick to their stomach that the US team which is significantly based in Philly still holds a world championship title. Their man, their hero from Taiwan aspired to be the US head coach and lost and now they who were on the sidelines for Prague are trying to diminish team USA's achievements however they can.

Blundetto, showing complete lack of perspective, ran for head coach after his team finished third of three in the senior category in the US nationals. He expected to lead paddlers who had just watched his team get their doors blown off. Blundetto actually touted his great victory in the Disney race as part of his submission. If it had come to pass that Mike Blundetto had been elected head coach of team USA few if any of the paddlers who raced Premier in Prague would have been part of the US team. The top Philly paddlers intensely dislike the guy and the top West Coast outrigger guys would not have wasted their time with a coach that lacks national or international credentials.

"The fact that he contributes endless posts to this forum is a good indication of his lack of professionalism."

And you who submits an insulting post here in an anonymous fashion consider yourself to have better character? Go back into your rat hole.

"If it had come to pass that Mike Blundetto had been elected head coach of team USA few if any of the paddlers who raced Premier in Prague would have been part of the US team."

And no, Canadians cannot vote in the next election.

"If it had come to pass that Mike Blundetto had been elected head coach of team USA few if any of the paddlers who raced Premier in Prague would have been part of the US team. The top Philly paddlers intensely dislike the guy and the top West Coast outrigger guys would not have wasted their time with a coach that lacks national or international credentials."


You forgot to add: "Then we would have had an excuse for dropping from 1st to 7th in just two years."

"Blundetto actually touted his great victory in the Disney race as part of his submission."


Very true. And McNamara touted his Nations Cup victory in 2007. McNamara should have won the Head Coach vote in a landslide.

Nope. McNamara won the vote by the slimmest of margins, 7-6, with 6 of his votes coming from his Philly teams' 6 divisional victories at the Nationals. (His other vote was rumored to be garnered through compensatory means -- but let's assume it was legit.) In other words, nearly all of McNamara's victory was because he was able to vote for himself six times. Blundetto's teams only won two divisions (the third Manayunk youth victory was coached by a West Coast guy), so four non-Manayunk coaches voted for Blundetto.

So let's not get into the "who's more hated" nonsense. You will lose that battle.

"Your captain, Ross, is an ICF director. You don't seem to have a problem with Ross.

Mike Blundetto is an ICF regional director."

Well, to correct the positions, technically they are directors in USACK, not the ICF.

Regardless, there is obviously a contradiction in Bob's position. And of course Ross is in a major conflict of interest position, himself. If one looks at the responsibilities of Ross' role, it includes growth of non-olympic paddle sports which we all know includes DB UNDER USACK, UNDER ICF.

I wonder how Ross lives with himself? And Bob, how can he even stand looking at him? knowing that he's in a position that is responsible for helping the growth of DB under USACK.

and

I wonder how many dragon boat paddlers Ross has brought into USACK membership since he took on this role?

He's had plenty of exposure to a great number of potential members with all his recent training, racing and trips. Must be hundreds of new members by now. Right? I mean, Bob said he was perfect for the position.

Or has he just been doing the two-step with Bob during this time?

Really! his ultimate role is to help drive membership and promote growth of USACK. Has a single dragon boater, influenced by Ross, joined USACK since he's been in this role?

If so, did he secretly have to say, "Shhh, don't tell Bob. It'll be our little secret. Welcome to USACK/ICF"

Has he reached out to Mike in efforts to promote "cooperation with the other Board members" as is stated in the "general" job description of the position of director?

Has he been "more directly involved with their disciplines than the
Independent Directors, meaning that the Sport Directors will be
involved with Team Selection processes, interface more closely with
the USACK High Performance staff member, attend races, and
generally have more face-to-face interaction with the athletes than the
Independent Directors will." (taken from USACK's position requirements)

Was he supportive in any way of the USACK/Dragon Boat USA sanctioned dragon boat team in their recent trip to an ICF sanctioned event as part of The World Games, which is under the patronage of the International Olympic Committee and member of General Association of International Sports Federation? (but are NON-OLYMPIC sports) (and how this team was formed is moot - given the circumstances). Did Ross fully support participation of that team to that event that was fully encouraged by USACK?

An event that brought dozens of new members to USACK?

Did Ross support this or slam it in the same ways that Bob has?

Yes, this is material for another thread, but Bob keeps bringing up the USACK/ICF issue here.

I'm really beginning to believe that Bob has split personalities. and poor Ross is sure going to have to develop one.

More popcorn please.

"top West Coast outrigger guys would not have wasted their time..."

Translation: there would have been no subsidy of funds coming from non-premier paddlers paying their way.

1:41, great post. Unfortunately, I doubt we'll get a material explanation.

"Very true. And McNamara touted his Nations Cup victory in 2007. McNamara should have won the Head Coach vote in a landslide.
Nope. McNamara won the vote by the slimmest of margins, 7-6, with 6 of his votes coming from his Philly teams' 6 divisional victories at the Nationals. (His other vote was rumored to be garnered through compensatory means -- but let's assume it was legit.) In other words, nearly all of McNamara's victory was because he was able to vote for himself six times. Blundetto's teams only won two divisions (the third Manayunk youth victory was coached by a West Coast guy), so four non-Manayunk coaches voted for Blundetto. "

You guys are pathetic, at the best this is a lame EXCUSE on a thread you started to get at the REAL USA team for "excuses": Mike Blundetto lost the US head coach because a coach was paid off. In reality this is a lame cheap shot at the West Coast coach who voted against Blundetto. To insinuate that he took a bribe is a new low for you Manayunk losers. This will be your last straw in So Cal good luck recruiting a team that can win anything in the ICF.

Blundetto really deserved to be head coach to lead the defending Nations Cup champions. Besides the fact mentioned that the team he coached the Manayunk senior men were crushed in Long Beach, here are his 6 votes:

Junior women: uncontested in Long Beach
U23 mixed: uncontested in LB
GM women: uncontested in LB
Junior Open: the boat with over half of the kids needing age waivers that was smacked down by a U 16 boat in all 3 1000 meter pieces
Junior Mixed: 18 vs. 16 year olds
Senior women: the only boat with a legitimate challenger

What a joke it would have been if he had been coach, we saw what he was able to do in Taiwan when he was given a fully covered generous land package. He assembled a team that lost everything big time. No wonder he punched a wall

"The US Premier Open were the STRONGEST " (in BOLD) "of any non- Asian team". Really? As coach, are you OK with that statement? It is racist, speculative and in poor taste.
Simple question: Do you agree with this? "

More pathetic drivel from Manayunk.
Mikey you and your boys know the guy who is currently Chair of our board is Asian, he got to the lift the Nations Cup as President of the organization in Sydney and that really must have been a bad day for you since you did everything you could to make his life miserable before "resigning" your membership. The treasurer is a minority as are numerous paddlers and youth team members. Look in the mirror, the composition of your team has not one single minority in your Philly group.

Oh and that fight Mikey got into in Shanghai with a team mate who happened to be a 6 time Olympian was because he took offense to Mikey calling the Chinese team "third world monkeys". But that is not racist is it? Did you put that on your resume to be coaching director of the ICF for a sport started by those you insulted in such a manner.

You Manayunk losers have opened a can of worms. Your man punches a wall and you try to come back with a throwing the clip board comment. You accuse Philly of racism when you are led by someone who did the above. You accuse a coach from the West Coast of taking a bribe because he had the sense not to vote for a guy whose team finished DFL in LB.

Meanwhile, gold and silver go on the wall for the Philly men and 2 silver and 2 bronze go up for the Philly women. Perhaps you can mount a picture of your 26 second loss in the 1000 in Taiwan providing someone with a wide angle camera was in a building near by.

You are losing off the water as much as you lost on the water. Go back in your rat holes.

"The youth "The 2008 USDBF Youth Open, Women and Mixed National Champions from Long Beach" had a great year of racing, in several events around the country, especially on the West Coast, and will do so again next year. They will also compete at the 2010 ICF World Championships in Hungary. Far from abandoned. "

And the final coup de grace is that Manayunk insults the USA under 16 teams gold medal in Prague because only two teams were entered (when actually there were 3) yet puts up this glorious statement about their NATIONAL champions failing to clarify that the title is from a two boat race. Oh and yes there were multiple Asian and minority kids in that Prague boat.

"Blundetto actually touted his great victory in the Disney race as part of his submission."

Really? You call that a great victory? Beating 2 teams in the only mens race of the day?

FYI: Disney '08 Premier MEN Division, only 3 participants -
1. Manayunk Men - 2:12.35
2. Hydroblades Men - 2:14.35
3. Razorblades - 2:21.74

Or did you mean the Premier MIXED, the much larger division, where the "great victory" was one second over 2 Equally balanced Corporate Teams, not even a stacked "A" team?

1. Manayunk Mixed I - 2:15.90
2. TECO Tan Anou Red - 2:16.60
3. TECO Tan Anou Black - 2:17.35
4. DCH - 2:18.20
5. Pickering DBC - 2:18.88

Im not bashing the Orlando Races, or TECO, but to pad your resume' with a "great victory" over the local Electric Utility? I would have thought that a nationally traveling club like Manayunk would have better sources to cite...

I think that "great victory" comment was sarcastic.

Wow WEEEEEEEE!
Now that's a whole lot of redirecting and demonizing. Looks like you were up all night.
Bob, Bob, Bobby, lashing out and not addressing statements made does not address the posts from above.
Come on, Really? Lashing out at Blundetto or Manayunk has nothing to do with the posts made and how you wrote an article of hate.
I'm shocked! Just BS accusations (with no substance) and not a bit about what you have done to the sport with your recent publications you're so proud of.
Be a man and address these actions with reasonable, substative **** we can sink our teath into. These are your teams posts, your article and you should address it without the angry rants.
OR, maybe you have ADD and just can't? If so, you're Dr. get some meds going, because I fail to see how bringing Disney into this has anything to do with anything.
Oh, I especially like the accusations of calling the Chinese names. Hardly. Heard that one before from your little bother in a prior post. Precious.
Why don't we get back to this, stuff of substance:
You wrote:
"No facts to back up my statements about the ICF? Read the words of the leader of your organization."
"This interview with the ICF President should blow a fatal hole in the hopes of anyone "
Fatal hole??????
If this is the best you can come up with to support the nastiness you wrote in DBWI, and again here, then I think it's time you think about retiring.
Are you OK? Because this states nothing that would provoke a normal human being to lash out the way you have.
It's very disturbing and a bit scary.
You must have been the reason for the break up between to two federations. Who else has done such a thing?
The letter you provided offers nothing to explain your behavior.
Do you have anything else of SUBSTANCE that would justify this?
Or are you just angry?
And don't blame your article on Blundetto. You're wearing that one thin.

Try this

Wow WEEEEEEEE!

Now that's a whole lot of redirecting and demonizing. Looks like you were up all night.

Bob, Bob, Bobby, lashing out and not addressing statements made does not address the posts from above.

Come on, Really? Lashing out at Blundetto or Manayunk has nothing to do with the posts made and how you wrote an article of hate.

I'm shocked! Just BS accusations (with no substance) and not a bit about what you have done to the sport with your recent publications you're so proud of.

Be a man and address these actions with reasonable, substative **** we can sink our teath into.

These are your teams posts, your article and you should address it without the angry rants.

OR, maybe you have ADD and just can't? If so, you're Dr. get some meds going, because I fail to see how bringing Disney into this has anything to do with anything.

Oh, I especially like the accusations of calling the Chinese names. Hardly. Heard that one before from your little bother in a prior post. Precious.

Why don't we get back to this, stuff of substance:
You wrote:

"No facts to back up my statements about the ICF? Read the words of the leader of your organization."

"This interview with the ICF President should blow a fatal hole in the hopes of anyone "

Fatal hole??????

If this is the best you can come up with to support the nastiness you wrote in DBWI, and again here, then I think it's time you think about retiring.

Are you OK? Because this states nothing that would provoke a normal human being to lash out the way you have.

It's very disturbing and a bit scary.

You must have been the reason for the break up between to two federations. Who else has done such a thing?

The letter you provided offers nothing to explain your behavior.

Do you have anything else of SUBSTANCE that would justify this?

Or are you just angry?

And don't blame your article on Blundetto. You're wearing that one thin.

And the world thinks girls gossip!

no ****!

They're clearly pushing MaNamara's buttons, but they have a point.

I have yet to see answers for the article. That's a big one for me and I'm still a bit turned off by it. His responses posted here are consistent with what was written and the posters pushing him know it.

Best part is, he thinks he knows who's pushing him

To play devil's advocate, I don't see how the Blundetto fan club has provided more "substantive" arguments to support their contentions than Bob has. They allege that the breakdown between the ICF/IDBF talks was caused by Bob, but that's just as speculative as Bob's suspicions of ICF's motives.

Let's just take a step back here. It's unlikely that any "proof" of the contentions made here will ever surface, especially on this anonymous forum. But that doesn't mean that I can't form an opinion based on reason.

The Blundetto fan club has not disputed Bob's characterization the ICF's history with dragon boating, which is that the ICF declined to support the sport in its infant stages but are now becoming much more involved after the IDBF has increased its popularity. Assuming that this is true, I will now throw out some questions in the same fashion that Blundetto's boys have been doing.
Why did the ICF not care back in the day, but want to be more involved now?
Why would the ICF want to become involved when there is already another recognized federation that governs the sport?
Why would the ICF hold their own "World Championships" and "World Club Crews" if much larger and more competitive versions of these events are already run by another organization? If they truly cared for the sport, why not just support the existing events?

If you ask me, these are much more pressing questions than the ones posed by the Blundetto gang. Weeks ago, I was completely unaware of this conflict. But after perusing through network54's wonderfully eloquent discussions (/s), I have come to believe that, as a person who loves dragon boating, it is in my best interest to support the IDBF, an organization that promotes the interests of the sport. Until someone gives me good answers to the above questions, my position stands.

"Be a man and address these actions with reasonable, substative **** we can sink our teath into."

Bsides not being able to spell it is pretty funny that someone who has been launching anonymous attacks would throw out a "be a man" challenge. Not one of these Manayunk wimps has the stones to put their name up.

"I laughed when I saw the clipboard comment - just one of the many crazy memories of the unbalanced U.S. coach acting out at worlds. Dragonboat is the only place he'd be tolerated."

I take it that you have never watched a baseball game?

Or a college basketball game?

Or maybe a hockey game?

I agree a flying clipboard is somewhat inappropriate, but I've seen rains of chairs, gatorade coolers, hockey sticks, etc, etc. in PROFESSIONAL sports.

I must say that you Americans with your interncene squabbles are amusing to watch. Good thing us Canadians never squabble like that...(cough) sharifakerkmunn(cough)...no, not us.

I'll take a stab at this questions. These are only my beliefs.


"Why did the ICF not care back in the day, but want to be more involved now?"

To be clear, the ICF became interested in dragonboating several years ago. Maybe 6 years or so, if I recall. This is not a very recent issue. Yes, the IDBF was indeed the first international dragonboat organization. That doesn't give them a right to anything. Here's an example of how things can evolve. Before the U.S. Dragon Boat Federation (USDBF) existed, there was the American Dragon Boat Association (ADBA). Some people thought that they could run a better organization than the ADBA, so they started the USDBF.

Maybe the ICF, seeing the growing popularity of the sport several years ago, simply wanted to get a piece of this action and maybe the ICF thinks they can run the sport better. After the Prague lane-bias debacle -- at the most important IDBF event of all -- the ICF has some juice in asserting itself.

Now consider the NFL (the U.S.'s National Football League). In the 1960's the AFL ("American Football League") operated in direct competition to the NFL! Ultimately, these entities merged.

The ICF and IDBF have been in talks to merge/cooperate. MacNamara's recent missive doesn't help those efforts.




"Why would the ICF want to become involved when there is already another recognized federation that governs the sport? Why would the ICF hold their own "World Championships" and "World Club Crews" if much larger and more competitive versions of these events are already run by another organization? If they truly cared for the sport, why not just support the existing events?"

See above.

"Junior women: uncontested in Long Beach
U23 mixed: uncontested in LB
GM women: uncontested in LB
Junior Open: the boat with over half of the kids needing age waivers that was smacked down by a U 16 boat in all 3 1000 meter pieces
Junior Mixed: 18 vs. 16 year olds
Senior women: the only boat with a legitimate challenger "

This is a joke - having a "national" level competition that goes uncontested.

Way to grow the sport IDBF/USDBF!

"What a joke it would have been if he had been coach, we saw what he was able to do in Taiwan when he was given a fully covered generous land package."

Please. RIDICULOUS comparison. The U.S. had two-weeks notice from the ICF that the U.S. could enter a team for the World Games. TWO WEEKS. The land-package (room, board, transportation) was a nice perk, but airfare to Taiwan was NOT covered.

The U.S. Premier Open entry in Prague had a year to put its team together. This team had EVERYTHING fully paid because they had plenty of time to raise funds. They even bought themselves a new Swift boat for practice in Philly. This team was the best in 2007 and placed 7th in 2009.

Though both USA individuals have tempers, MB is not the individual he is making himself to be here.
A lot of current USA National team members probably does not know how MB treated some of his former National team mates outside of Philly. Nor do they know about all his other transgressions that have occurred in the past while he was representing the Philly crew. That is the main reason when there are National team try-outs there isn't as much interest nationally as one would think. How MB is still getting confidential info from the current team somewhat worries us. Since some of us are considering trying out for 2011 Tampa national team again, but we're worried a rotten apple is still present.

People do forgive but they don't forget. As the cliche' goes, what goes around comes around.

"Yes, the IDBF was indeed the first international dragonboat organization. That doesn't give them a right to anything."

Really? So guiding and growing the sport, establishing a network of National Federations, writing the rulebooks, guidelines & standards, establishing bona fide World Championships for National teams AND Club Crews, none of this amounts to the kind of activity that would give them a "right" or claim to being the overseer federation of the sport?

By your reasoning any sport could and should be taken over by any upstart organization, just because they feel like it. History be damned, it's open season!

Yes and whether they went uncontested or had few entries is immaterial. Bob didn't win the coaching vote by a land-slide. While he had complete control of 6 of his votes, Blundetto had only control of two. 4 non-Blundetto controlled, and non-Mac controlled voters thought it best to see Bob out of this role. But let's say for arguments sake that the Blundetto votes were also controlled by Blundetto. That means that 4 people thought enough of him and less of McNamara and sided with Mike. That really is a serious indictment of him and it's not that he's incapable of good coaching (he's obviously shown he can do well). I believe it speaks of what people think of him as a person.

Many people know that Bob is a good coach. Hell, he's a great coach. But what of his character?

The initial post here drives the point. Now I'm not sure it was from Bob, but it sure does point to him and he has not said otherwise.

I don't think it a disgrace to lose at the world championship to ANYBODY. Things change rapidly in an evolving sport. China is a good example. they all but disappeared at the premier open level in 97, 99, 01, and 05, after easily crushing everyone in 1995. They are now back in good form and good for them.

I think it a bigger disgrace that someone would make excuses, downplay the accomplishments of others as if they're undeserving, and point to their own accomplishment and say, "look at me, look at me!" and "woulda, shoulda coulda." That really is bad form and makes many drive home the point "that Americans are such a$$holes and think the world owes them."

The best thing that some of these Americans, ESPECIALLY THE COACH, could have done in this thread is say with true humility, "alot can happen in a couple years and we don't have control over many things. Lots of great teams stepped up and although we saw some great results with our ladies and in a couple of our men's races - our hats go off to all the champions out there. Congratulations to all of you. We'll see you next time."

I don't know if we'd ever hear that sort of thing from Bob, i'm not so sure he has it in him.

"Since some of us are considering trying out for 2011 Tampa national team again, but we're worried a rotten apple is still present."

Not much to worry about since you make a McNamara run team by showing your stuff in an outrigger trial and a look at how you paddle in the team boat. Work hard, turn in the time and you can kick this rotten apple out of the barrel yourself.

Additionally, there may or may not be a rotten apple on the current Philly team, the information that is being presented is not a secret. For instance, any of the Manayunk team could have seen our Swift boat out in the river. In fact two of the Manayunk team members practiced in that boat when they were considering making a run for the Prague senior team so they all would know about it whether they are posting here or not. An invitation had been extended to them since they raced in Long Beach and that was the directive of the USDBF to the winning coaches. The funding has never been a secret and it was going on before they left the Philly team.

Ask those from the outside who made the team this year, it was fair and square. Philly guys who raced in Sydney and Long Beach got left home after they were beaten by outsiders. Some of them may leave the team disgruntled but the best of them will redouble their efforts and come back stronger for the Tampa tryouts which is exactly the way it should be for a national team.

The 1:20 post was in response to the 7:25 and 12:16.

Too many conversations going on in here.

Peace out!

"I don't know if we'd ever hear that sort of thing from Bob, i'm not so sure he has it in him. "

Sure you have heard this "sort of thing" before from him, he stated earlier in the thread that he fully recognizes the 1997 victory was aided by a lane draw and that he tried to console his team with that in Prague. You read his team's web site to find things to throw at him like the world record item and you can go there right now an see what he wrote after Sydney. It includes the below:

"Saturday was 200-meter races all day, the mixed before lunch and the open after. The Premier mixed was mildly disappointed with the silver behind China but the shorter race was made for that type of awesome start. In the Premier Open event, while making the final, we had to bow down in respect to the Philippines and China who both cranked at over 130 strokes per minute on their way to gold and silver in blazing times."

You were on the Philly team when he wrote the below about the 2004 team, you just conveniently forget these things because your bitterness has obscured your view.


"One Gold, One Silver, Two Bronze
Shanghai World Championships bring the 2004 season to a successful conclusion for Philly and the rest of Team USA.

by Bob McNamara
The Premier Open team came home with the gold medal in the 1000 meter race using a strong body stroke to lead most of the way and best the two time defending Canadian team. This was a significant accomplishment as the full team first paddled together the day of the race due to some unexpected travel delays for 3 Philly guys and the use of 5 paddlers from the west coast. The open team lacked the quick start to medal in the other shorter races. However, in the 500, the team actually had the 6th fastest time in the semis missing out on the final because of the 2 from each semi and next 2 fastest times rule.
We may have medaled there if we had made the final but them's the breaks. We won the gold in 1997 by squeaking in to the final with a second place in the slower semifinal so we can't complain. The open team did go on to win the minor final in a great battle with China to the right and the Phillipines (silver in the 200) to the left. Team members will likely never forget the awesome drumming from the Chinese team competing with the whistling of the Phillipines drummer."

Funny that none of you have been able to effectively reply to the broken hand, comment about the Chinese team, etc. about your man whose posts here are recognizable by the degree of profanity in use.

"Why would the ICF hold their own "World Championships" and "World Club Crews" if much larger and more competitive versions of these events are already run by another organization? If they truly cared for the sport, why not just support the existing events?

If you ask me, these are much more pressing questions than the ones posed by the Blundetto gang. Weeks ago, I was completely unaware of this conflict. But after perusing through network54's wonderfully eloquent discussions (/s), I have come to believe that, as a person who loves dragon boating, it is in my best interest to support the IDBF, an organization that promotes the interests of the sport. Until someone gives me good answers to the above questions, my position stands."

Try this answer to your very legitimate question.

Those in the IDBF should embrace the following:

The ICF World Championships do not conflict with the IDBF World Championships. More opportunities for World Championships.

The ICF Club Crew Championships also do not conflict with the IDBF Club Crew Championships. More opportunities for clubs to compete in areas around the World EACH year.

This could only help the sport grow when there are more races and more opportunities

We should embrace BOTH!

USACK and Dragon Boat USA have encouraged participation in the IDBF events and they stand by that. Proof, several from ICF World Games, from USA, went to Prague and were encouraged to do so.

Well those articles from Bob are gracious and well written, so I'll take back the comment about not getting that sort of thing from him. My apology.

But if he is the author of the comments in the opening piece, he is double minded and should apologize. They were insulting and a disgrace and again, make him out to be an a--hole.

"Funny that none of you have been able to effectively reply to the broken hand, comment about the Chinese team, etc. about your man whose posts here are recognizable by the degree of profanity in use."

I'm not responsible for any of those actions and have nothing to do with them and don't need to apologize for whoever is responsible. Nor do I have to answer to any post related to those actions.

Just like I don't expect you to be responsible for Bob or anyone else. Unless of course you are Bob.

Responses to the questions of substance.........

Crickets!!! Just crickets!!!!!!

"Just like I don't expect you to be responsible for Bob or anyone else. Unless of course you are Bob. "

I just wet myself

"If it had come to pass that Mike Blundetto had been elected head coach of team USA few if any of the paddlers who raced Premier in Prague would have been part of the US team. The top Philly paddlers intensely dislike the guy and the top West Coast outrigger guys would not have wasted their time with a coach that lacks national or international credentials."

Well. I'm on the West Coast. I paddle outrigger. I've been "one of those outrigger guys" recruited to paddle dragonboat in the past for the US. I've dealt with both Bob and Mike. So I guess I have a reasonably informed opinion on the above statement.

Mike - indeed, I would not waste my time with Mike. Not because of any perceived lack of credentials, however, but because he's a complete and utter douchebag. I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire and sure as hell wouldn't paddle for him.

Bob - if all my expenses were paid, yeah I would race for the guy. But he's a petty tyrant with stunted interpersonal skills so I'd only do it for a race that really mattered (worlds) and only if I didn't have to spend a dime. Otherwise I'd stay at home and have fun paddling with people who treat each other with respect.

"Those in the IDBF should embrace the following:

The ICF World Championships do not conflict with the IDBF World Championships. More opportunities for World Championships.

The ICF Club Crew Championships also do not conflict with the IDBF Club Crew Championships. More opportunities for clubs to compete in areas around the World EACH year.

This could only help the sport grow when there are more races and more opportunities

We should embrace BOTH!"


No, this is called splitting. Overseas and/or international competition is very expensive. By holding multiple "world championships" for the same sport you are forcing teams to either choose one or the other, or double their expenses to attend both. This is not a reasonable proposition and it does not "grow" the sport.

Let's be frank: the ICF World Championships were a construct to attempt to legitimize their claim on dragon boat racing. So they get a few decent teams, add a bunch of trumped up rec crews, and call it a world championships. Shameful.

231 PM:

"Slovaks got a tainted gold out of lane 1. HUN = zippo, GBR triple medalist in Sydney = zippo. The best shot for a Canadian Premier medal was in the 1000 and the BS Slovak win screwed them as they finished fourth just an hour or so after beating the Slovaks head to head in the semi."

You want an apology for a truthful statement?

The above is what has you so fired up so now go to the original thread this was in about "lane bias" and re-read the start of that thread and all the comments since. Notice that the thread was started by someone who was on the ground in Prague and that no one has repudiated the lane bias issue. In fact, it was so glaringly obvious that the IDBF flipped the lane seedings something that would not have been done without solid statistical back up. Look at the photo on the thread, see the results posted at the end showing the lane bias, use the calculator put up there yourself to look at the races.

We have an admission that the gold medal in 1997 was tainted so why does their need to be an apology for the above "tainted" comment when it is the plain and simple truth and supported by much greater evidence than the 1997 lane disparity? You want an individual to issue a mea culpa for style after watching his team that spent countless hours of back breaking preparation get screwed by a shallow course? Frankly, looking at the facts the above post can be considered reserved given the amount of work that goes into preparing a team for the world championships. But you just don't get it, you will never be in such shoes with that much responsibility. You stand on the sidelines as the unworthy critic chirping at those in the arena.

"Well those articles from Bob are gracious and well written, so I'll take back the comment about not getting that sort of thing from him. My apology. "

Are you kidding me? Read the post from the control freak himself on September 3 2009, 4:41 PM

As a pillar in the Dragon Boat community one would think he would encourage more racing and more competition which clearly does not conflict.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

He just got angrier because it threatens his control.

That's what his is all about. That's why he needs a villain. That's why he answers legitimate questions with ridiculous rhetoric that has nothing to do with the issue.

Shock and awe, typical American crap to distract from the desception. It's about his control being threatened.

ICF has not attempted to put the IDBF out of business. The IDBF has and so has McNamara. How is that acceptable?

Both could, and should, be able to coexist.

That's probable why Mike Haslam realized the inappropriateness of continuing to attempt to put the ICF out of business and agreed to a joint venture between the two. He got it.

Nice job derailing that and standing by your nasty position. What a guy.

"Let's be frank: the ICF World Championships were a construct to attempt to legitimize their claim on dragon boat racing. So they get a few decent teams, add a bunch of trumped up rec crews, and call it a world championships. Shameful."

While I'm not sure that I would go that far with what the previous poster said above. I don't think having both ICF and IDBF championships really doubles the opportunties either. Looks like some teams were hand picked or perhaps those who had connections got that chance. I mean with all due respect to the Canadian group that went to the games in Taiwan, they really aren't representative of the caliber of dragonboating in Canada.

After a billion posts and six miles of text, what I got out of this thread so far was... The US had a Swift boat to practice in and...

Kudos to having the forsight to get one of those babies to practice with. Epic Fail in actually not having it show in the results.

ICF vs. IDBF

Bare with me as I forget the names, but these are the facts as I remember them from discussions gone bye. Long Long ago, in a galaxy far far away (Germany)...

Back in the day there was this funny little sport called Dragon Boating. Hardly even a sport at the time it was loosly participated in festivals around the world and widely associated with China primarily. Not that that is a bad thing. They started it and I thank them.

The ICF ignored it. Who can blame them? Pretty much anyone not participating ignored it. Go back 10-12 years and you were the only one your friends knew doing the silly thing.

Then something weird happened. It exploded. While I don't remember the exact timeline somewhere around 8-10 years ago Dragon Boating became the fastest growing water sport in the world. Not just paddle sport and maybe sport period. You went from having to explain to anyone what Dragon Boating was when heading to practice to people actually knowing other people who did it and heck, that person they know in (insert city here) has actually heard of your team.

Now in a concurrent timeline in the remarkable galaxy of ICF, a certain head of the ICF in Germany got voted into the Senate (Head of ICF) by the hated trade confederation. Now in Germany sports funding is allocated based on participation (clearly similar to other countries). Ooooh. Interesting!

Now on one fine day, the now head of the ICF looked out his window over the river and spotted a superbly fit C1 paddler cruising down the Rhine. What he also noticed was that this lone fellow was surrounded by 500 dragon boats. And being the smart guy that he is he thought to himself "If I take their presents, boxes and bags their will be no Christmas". No wait, wrong story.

What he actually reasoned and it makes perfect sense from his position at the head of the Empire was that if all these Dragon Boaters in the crazy growing sport (he didn't actually think it a sport, but more of a cow... a cash cow) were part of the ICF then my (ICF Germany) funding would mushroom... EXCELLENT!!!

They build a bunch of star ships including the death star and made the fateful statement "Woahhh, hang on a second! Dragon Boating IS A PADDLE SPORT! We own it bitches!!!"

Cheers, piece out, may the schwartz be with you.

OMG USA shut up.

If Mike and Bob actually do love the sport and it's development in the US and the US's success internationally, then they should get the heck out and allow some semblance of normalcy to develop.

What is obvious is that no matter what happens, they will never be able to work together in putting the best team/program forward.

It reminds me of the FCRCC vs TCBA days way back when.

We got past that here and I think that at least from a National Team perspective the process works in a collaborative and mutual goals perspective. A team/club/region wins the right to put together a team in a given class. They then open up to everyone to make the best they can.

Now that ICF story was an excellent piece!!!

Re:
"While I'm not sure that I would go that far with what the previous poster said above. I don't think having both ICF and IDBF championships really doubles the opportunties either. Looks like some teams were hand picked or perhaps those who had connections got that chance. I mean with all due respect to the Canadian group that went to the games in Taiwan, they really aren't representative of the caliber of dragonboating in Canada."

The World Games were an exception to the ICF events. It's held every 4 years and DB is what they call a "trend sport" (really?, I know) and not an official sport impacting medal counts (yet). they limited it to 10 teams. I'm not aware of how the Canadians selected their squad, but USA had to scamble to get a team together because they didn't get a bid until another country backed out and considering many excellent paddlers were already committed to Praque. I would venture a guess that was the case for the Canada squad as well.

crickets, just crickets......

"We got past that here and I think that at least from a National Team perspective the process works in a collaborative and mutual goals perspective. A team/club/region wins the right to put together a team in a given class. They then open up to everyone to make the best they can."

While I doubt it will ever happen here, I pray it will. There are excellent paddlers and people on both sides of this and some are caught in the middle with fear of alienating either side. I believe there are probably some that would never be able to paddle for the "other side" just because of the asociation.

I personally wish that both of these guys would swallow the pride and embrace what they each can bring to the table. USA could then be a strong competitor in BOTH ICF and IDBF. (I don't foresee either going away soon).

But based and all the above posts - it ain't gunna happin.

I don't think anyone in Canada even knew we had a team until the thread here

"He just got angrier because it threatens his control. "

Excellent post. Perfect accuracy.

"I personally wish that both of these guys would swallow the pride and embrace"

I can see Bob wanting to spoon Mike

Let's get it straight, this is far from FCRCC vs TCBA.
This is one disgruntled, exhiled paddler who is doing whatever
he can to bring down an successful program and their coach. The disgruntled
paddler does not even have a full team and has to fill his boat
with competitive people from other parts of USA and Canada.
When he was at the Island, he borrowed paddlers to make his crew happen.
Mac may have his faults, but this world is not made of perfect coaches either. There are
plenty of them in the sporting news.

"We got past that here and I think that at least from a National Team perspective the process works in a collaborative and mutual goals perspective. A team/club/region wins the right to put together a team in a given class. They then open up to everyone to make the best they can."

Actually that is exactly how it worked with worked with the entire team USA this year for Prague. Once Blundetto removed himself and his qualifed junior teams from the picture things worked out quite well regarding these aspects. All teams took sought and took paddlers from other areas. It was a collaborative effort as you describe with time trials in multiple areas and referral of paddlers from one area to another.

What is happening here is not friction within the USDBF as Blundetto and his cronies pulled out of that, it is friction between the USACK aligned group that has split off from the USDBF, at the core and in the leadership of this group is those who split off from Philly. The Philly/USDBF aligned folks teased the USACK group about their Taiwan performance and the USACK group is now coming back saying that the USA performance in Prague was an "epic" failure, their men are only 7th best, etc. hence the venom.

So there really is no need to change anything in the USDBF. The actual status of USDBF related dragon boat is fine.

After this current discussion goes around a bit the two sides will recede until one or the other puts it on the line somewhere again and the results have come out laying open the debate again. There will be a continued divide as long as each of the two entities claim to be the national team that is competing for the world title. If the ICF and the IDBF call a truce it will trickle down to this level. Prior to the USACK split off we repeatedly saw more of the same regarding Philly versus those who split off. Everytime Philly would race somewhere these guys chime in with criticism be it in New York or Montreal as happened this year with their claim that Philly wimped out on the 250. The return serve is criticisms of events like Taiwan that the other faction goes to. Expecting it to fully disappear is like expecting there never to be comments about how the flatties were the only true gods of Canadian dragon boat.

Fueling the debate is the personal nature of the issues between key members of the groups. The split off group wants nothing more than Philly/McNamara and by extension the USDBF teams under his control to fail while they in turn cannot stomach Blundetto and his antics both before and after the split. You see this personal nature in the cheap anonymous attacks stating "cheater, liar, briber, bully" and other character assaults from the one side and the indignation of the other side countering with the broken hand, team disruption, etc. activities of Blundetto. Believe me it is personal and will remain so.

The one side held up the Nations Cup in Sydney, possesses records, repeatedly is on the podium at big events but instead of begrudging respect all this does is to deepen the hate from the other side. And so it goes around and around.

LMFAO!!!

That was awesome!

Thanks, I got several big laughs out of it. Any you know what? That is EXACTLY what happened.

Good thing that straw haired boy from Tatooine was on our side!

"Great shot kid, that was one in a million!"


I just hope this means that I don't get my hand chopped off at the next regatta, and find out that Fred Heese is my father.

"No, noooOOOOOO!!!

Blake, why didn't you tell me?"

5:00 pm poster

"Blundetto and his cronies"

You seem to have a handle on this sordid affair. The rift between Blundetto and Mac obviously goes back many years now and it definitely is personal between those two. But what of these "cronies" people speak of? Who are they and what is their position on this? Why would there be a group of them? Have all of these people become "disgruntled" by Mac for the same reasons?

I mean, I read people claiming that they're not good enough for Bob's team and from what I understand some have paddled with Bob even at his premier level and could paddle for him still. Why do people seem to get disenfranchised by this guy? Blundetto himself had been with him for MANY years. I bet it's not an issue that he's not good enough to paddle on Bob's team.
There was mention of fighting. What was that all about? Did Blundetto have to sit? or did Blundetto call Mac on the floor about something and challenge him?
And are some of Bob's loyals just turning a blind eye because right now, he's the one winning races.

And what of this USACK organization? They are a highly reputable organization and have had some success. Why would they desire to take "Blundetto and his cronies" under their umbrella and try to grow the sport of DB if he and they are such pathetic losers? Is that just for USACK memberships? Or do they see a real potential there?

Dr. Chen is part of new USACK organization, correct? He seems to have gotten things going pretty well out west without the help of Philly/Mac. (some of the US success in the GM is due to those people) Is he just a "crony" of Blundetto's? Same with some people in Portland area. And they have big festivals and good clubs. Are they all just Mac rejects?


"just crickets"

WOW!

Another clipboard in the distance.

Crickets............................

"Bob - if all my expenses were paid, yeah I would race for the guy. But he's a petty tyrant with stunted interpersonal skills so I'd only do it for a race that really mattered (worlds) and only if I didn't have to spend a dime."

I'm with you, pretty much the environment that's been created and he's a bitch to deal with. Walks away from you while you're speaking.

The team is not as warm and fuzzy as some would like you to think. Lots of whispering going on.

Silent class warfare within the team.

Folks in it for the free ride. Without that, the team goes down.

Got to say, Blundetto does not have the funds pay his paddlers and they still come. East coast, West Coast, Canadians, youth, old vets. Must be something to it. Can't be that bad if they follow.

Clearly not for money. McDaddy can't state the same.

Blundetto was not the Dragonboat USA Coach from the inception.

Les Hopper was tagged the USA coach until Blundetto decided to participate. At one point, Les & Blundetto were going to run/coach the team together until things started heating up. Not wanting to deal with the drama, Les stepped down from coaching duties and ultimately opted not to participate in Taiwan.

"I personally wish that both of these guys would swallow the pride and embrace what they each can bring to the table. USA could then be a strong competitor in BOTH ICF and IDBF. (I don't foresee either going away soon)."

It's not just McNamara who has a problem with him although he certainly has the most reasons to dislike the guy including Blundetto's failed campaign to have him removed as Philly coach. The top paddlers in the program who know him would not have gone to Prague under him. Below are some comments sent to the team board about Mike from other Philly team members at the time of the split. Anyone who knows Blundetto knows the issues outlined here.

"volunteer coaches & volunteer board members don't deserve the ear
lashing that Mike delivers on a regular basis. It's too much to bear
for the price they are paid!"

"As paddlers, those who sit in the boat next to him and have to put up
with his sophomoric, "I'm huge" and "Fuc*%$em, etc, etc, comments (for
the last 20 years) deserve a break".

"We all know that he has done more to embarrass the Phila team and cause
other teams to hate our team."

"He's no good for our team and our sport! He has done more damage than
we could ever repair."

"We are all so callused to his ways that we accept everything that he
does, no matter how bad. We simply shake our heads and continue on."

"Our reputation has been damaged and he wouldn't know it or care about
it if he did know. He'd say fu$^#em! As a paddler, I for one don't like
being apart of that attitude."

"I'd prefer not to paddle on a team that Mike Blundetto is a part of
anymore!"

Bottom line: it is not about swallowing pride from the Philly team side, it would be about asking to have a cancer put back in after successful removal.

"Folks in it for the free ride. Without that, the team goes down.
Got to say, Blundetto does not have the funds pay his paddlers and they still come. East coast, West Coast, Canadians, youth, old vets. Must be something to it. Can't be that bad if they follow."

Yup you really know the score.
The senior men's team, GM mixed team and youth team out of Philly plus the dozen or so paddlers the program gave to the senior women, GM women, GM men teams for Prague were not paid paddlers. There was no funding for Long Beach yet Philly came across the country with the forces to win 6 categories.

If the program was not creating some internal tension and "whispers" due to people losing seats they would not be where they are today. Blundetto's initial beef was when outside paddlers were brought in to win the worlds after McNamara said if you could not beat him you could not be on the Premier team for Shanghai. Those in the program are not casual paddlers who want the coach to be their buddy and to guarantee them a seat, they are willing to be tried and tested. They accept the competitive atmosphere created because they want to win.

How is it that in his home town of Philly Mikey can only get at most 4-6 paddlers on the water while McNamara can put out ten times that many people and then come back at night to coach two full boats of youth? You only need to read the comments above to understand why Blundetto has no base in Philly. He used to be on a team that had the funds, he blew that opportunity with his mistaken belief that the Philly team would follow him instead of McNamara. It has been five years why hasn't he built up his own organization in Philly to provide what is necessary to win?

The circle of paddlers Blundetto can draw from has grown smaller with each year. He initially had the nationwide appeal of trying to knock off Philly and entered both an Open team and Senior team in Tampa. In Long Beach he could only field a senior boat. In Taiwan despite half funding the team he pieced together was "subpar". He has just lost any remaining faint ray of hope of recruiting out of San Diego/So Cal once word gets back to them that his group is accusing the GM men's coach of accepting a bribe to vote for McNamara.

Eh, 958 PM so you support Blundetto but apparently you missed this part of the message from the West Coast guy you say you are with:

"Mike - indeed, I would not waste my time with Mike. Not because of any perceived lack of credentials, however, but because he's a complete and utter douchebag. I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire and sure as hell wouldn't paddle for him."

Yeah, that sums it up nicely.

Got to admit, whoever keeps such records is either the secretary or is completely psycotic

"As paddlers, those who sit in the boat next to him and have to put up
with his sophomoric, "I'm huge" and "Fuc*%$em, etc, etc, comments (for
the last 20 years) deserve a break".

Got to admit, I heard a lot of this when I paddled with them for 10 years and had the same opinion. But never heard it with Mike the last 5 years since Tampa Nationals.


"We all know that he has done more to embarrass the Phila team and cause
other teams to hate our team."

Not the only reason. Many philly paddlers are snobs and think they invented the sport. People from throughout NE and Portland, CA, IA have all been treated by Philly people as second class citizens. Bob made it a point to have his team not associate with other teams. But even if they did, disrespect was ofetn shown and it wasn't just from Blundetto. It was pandemic.


"He's no good for our team and our sport! He has done more damage than
we could ever repair."

Obviously not true given that from another post above, Philly & USDBF is doing well.


"Our reputation has been damaged and he wouldn't know it or care about
it if he did know. He'd say fu$^#em! As a paddler, I for one don't like
being apart of that attitude."

I've heard Bob say this as well. I remember that the motto of the American Dragon Boat Assoc was "Friendship Through Paddling" and hearing Bob say, "F*&% that and the ADBA. We're not here to make friends. F-in Hicks!"
also see above, many Philly people have danaged that reputation. They often showed disrespect to competition and other organizations. And it came from Bob as much as anybody.


"I'd prefer not to paddle on a team that Mike Blundetto is a part of
anymore!"

Must be comment from Pete given he's completely and utterly scared of him.

This thread is completely laughable.

It is also so sad to see how much ego and bull**** is tied up between you people.

Wake up folks. Dragon Boat just ain't that important.

Feel free to walk around pretending you mean something.

You don't.

So sit down. Shut the **** up.

crickets again

I think we're on our way to 200

"Feel free to walk around pretending you mean something.

You don't.

So sit down. Shut the **** up."


Only someone who thinks they "mean something" and has a huge ego themselves would try to tell others to "...sit down. Shut the **** up."

Like everyone in here is supposed to listen to you?

You don't like what you're reading? Go elsewhere.

typical kindergarten retort. "no but youuuu..."

"Really? So guiding and growing the sport, establishing a network of National Federations, writing the rulebooks, guidelines & standards, establishing bona fide World Championships for National teams AND Club Crews, none of this amounts to the kind of activity that would give them a "right" or claim to being the overseer federation of the sport?
By your reasoning any sport could and should be taken over by any upstart organization, just because they feel like it. History be damned, it's open season!"


Yes, really. It's called "competition". It's what makes us all better, no?

The ICF can do whatever it wants with dragonboating. It could fail, it could merge with the IDBF, it could dominate. As of today, the ICF has put the IDBF on notice that the IDBF is not the only game in town. That's good for the sport.

Take the NFL example above. The NFL was established 40 years before the AFL formed in 1960. The AFL did well enough that the NFL and AFL merged. In 1983, the USFL formed. This time, this new organization didn't make it and officially folded in 1988.

To the poster on 9/4, 5:00PM:

You have a pretty good grasp of this situation, but this comment is not correct: "The split off group wants nothing more than Philly/McNamara and by extension the USDBF teams under his control to fail"


Again, completely wrong. Many guys on the split-off group are still friends with many people on Bob's team. We cheered for them when they won the Nations Cup in 2007. We hoped that Bob's team would defend the Cup in Prague -- even after some of the Philly guys criticized the U.S. team's effort at the World Games, claiming that the USACK team was making excuses for their performance without any knowledge of the situation.

Interesting post:

"Well. I'm on the West Coast. I paddle outrigger. I've been "one of those outrigger guys" recruited to paddle dragonboat in the past for the US. I've dealt with both Bob and Mike. So I guess I have a reasonably informed opinion on the above statement.

Mike - indeed, I would not waste my time with Mike. Not because of any perceived lack of credentials, however, but because he's a complete and utter douchebag. I wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire and sure as hell wouldn't paddle for him.

Bob - if all my expenses were paid, yeah I would race for the guy. But he's a petty tyrant with stunted interpersonal skills so I'd only do it for a race that really mattered (worlds) and only if I didn't have to spend a dime. Otherwise I'd stay at home and have fun paddling with people who treat each other with respect."


I'd guess that you only know Mike from the days when he was on Bob's team. Mike probably came off poorly to you because Mike was very much against the idea of the money he raised going to "those outrigger guys". You just got caught up in the politics, which is a shame.

As for Bob, you likely only know him through dragon boating and the way you describe him is pretty typical for those who only know him through this sport. Outside of the sport, he's actually ok.

This sport does indeed do some weird chit to people...

"The circle of paddlers Blundetto can draw from has grown smaller with each year. He initially had the nationwide appeal of trying to knock off Philly and entered both an Open team and Senior team in Tampa. In Long Beach he could only field a senior boat. In Taiwan despite half funding the team he pieced together was "subpar". He has just lost any remaining faint ray of hope of recruiting out of San Diego/So Cal once word gets back to them that his group is accusing the GM men's coach of accepting a bribe to vote for McNamara."


This is a bunch of garbage and needs to be addressed.

Blundetto's Tampa Open team was mainly just a combination of his Seniors and some younger guys from MAD (in NYC). Plus one or two young dudes from other parts of the U.S. For Long Beach, he knew that Philly was superior in the Open division, so he didn't bother entering a team in that division. He stuck with the Seniors AND also coordinated a very large contingent of Junior paddlers. Blundetto had more paddlers in Long Beach than in Tampa.

Taiwan was far from "half-funded." Airfare cost from $800-$1200 each person. There were also a couple of hundred dollars worth of other expenses needed for uniforms and hotels before the races. The World Games only covered room and board for the two days of the actual races plus the previous day because of the Opening Ceremonies. That's it. Considering how inexpensive it is to stay and eat in Taiwan anyway, the total savings likely came to no more than $80/day over three days. Yet Blundetto was still able to get a team together with only two weeks notice after many paddlers had already committed to Prague.

As for the alleged "bribe". No one used the word "bribe" until McNamara's boys used the term here. The rumor of compensation started last fall because the coach with the deciding Head Coach vote had made it very clear that he was not going to go to Prague because of the expense. This was not unusual for this year's Worlds because many Senior and GM declined to go to Prague because of the cost. The economy has affected many people that way. Yet not long after this coach gave the deciding vote to Bob, it was learned that this coach was indeed going to Prague. Since McNamara, in the past, has helped pay the expenses of some of his Premier paddlers out of his own pocket (and that's his prerogative) in order to help his Premier team at the Worlds, it seemed quite possible that McNamara would pay the expenses of a coach that supported his Head Coach bid, too. Again, that would be McNamara's prerogative. If McNamara garnered the deciding vote this way, more power to him. Politicians promise all sorts of stuff (tax breaks, jobs, free health care, etc.) to garner votes anyway.

So cut the garbage and the distractions. It is clear that McNamara and Blundetto can BOTH put teams together. And sometimes the same paddlers compete for both coaches, as was evidenced by the fact that a number of the World Games crew was also in Prague.

A few people here are trying to paint a picture of a divide that goes far deeper than the personal one between Blundetto and McNamara. Sure, each coach has his detractors. But the detractors are far fewer than some of you here are trying to portray.

WHAT A BUNCH OF MALARKY. One is a legitimate coach of a large competitive DB association. The other can barely field a crew without getting help from wherever he can.

"One is a legitimate coach of a large competitive DB association. The other can barely field a crew without getting help from wherever he can."

Uhh, ask McNamara how many of his starting 20 Premier Open guys live within 30 miles of Philly. They both do the same thing.

Did Manayunk even race this year locally this year?

PDBA this year competed in Ithaca, Montreal and Prague. Manayunk only race when they can get outside help. So the clock is still ticking to see whether they can muster up a crew for the month of September.

"PDBA this year competed in Ithaca, Montreal and Prague."

That's great, but you are misrepresenting the facts if you are implying that all of the PDBA members at all those sites live in or near Philly. The PDBA, while having a lot of Philly-area people, has plenty members who live in parts of the U.S. other than Philly.

In any case, why does it matter how a team fields itself? Example: in Disney last year, Manayunk had more paddlers than any of the Florida teams. Manayunk, by bringing together paddlers from all over the U.S. and sometimes Canada, allows more paddlers to race more often. That's only a good thing.

"Did Manayunk even race this year locally this year?"


Princeton, New Jersey this month. Disney next month.

"PDBA this year competed in Ithaca, Montreal and Prague."

Perfect illustration of why so many of us hate all paddlers from Philly.

PDBA did NOT race in Prague.
US National Team raced in Prague.

As someone who has raced for the US National Team who is NOT from Philly - every time you all claim a US National Team race/victory/medal as being "PDBA" you disrespect all of us who do NOT paddle with PDBA and in fact disrespect the US National Team.

"Yet not long after this coach gave the deciding vote to Bob, it was learned that this coach was indeed going to Prague. Since McNamara, in the past, has helped pay the expenses of some of his Premier paddlers out of his own pocket (and that's his prerogative) in order to help his Premier team at the Worlds, it seemed quite possible that McNamara would pay the expenses of a coach that supported his Head Coach bid, too. Again, that would be McNamara's prerogative. If McNamara garnered the deciding vote this way, more power to him."

You say the bribe comment is garbage and respond with this? So stating that he gave up his vote up his for money is not as bad as saying he took a bribe? He just had his vote bought? You are basically implying two coaches are of questionable character: 1) McNamara for buying votes and 2) the GM men's coach for letting it be bought. You throw this out saying it was "quite possible". Nice double attack with zero proof.

Er, 134 PM if you are with the PDBA hater faction you may want to check out your own web site before laying into them about the team USA stuff. Go to www.manayunkdbracing.org and have them redo the site first then come back and slam them, it says Team USA all over that site, example:

"The Manayunk Dragon Boat Racing Team
Team USA:
Coach - Mike Blundetto"

"The Manayunk Dragon Boat Racing Team
Team USA:
Coach - Mike Blundetto"


That seems correct. Blundetto was the coach of the US team that went to Taiwan.

"You say the bribe comment is garbage and respond with this? So stating that he gave up his vote up his for money is not as bad as saying he took a bribe? He just had his vote bought? You are basically implying two coaches are of questionable character: 1) McNamara for buying votes and 2) the GM men's coach for letting it be bought. You throw this out saying it was "quite possible". Nice double attack with zero proof."

Again, YOU are using the word "bribe." No one accused the GM coach of taking money. The fact that he was suddenly able to afford to go to Prague after voting for McNamara made many people wonder if McNamara/Philly covered the GM coach's travel expenses. Why would this be such a shock? Philly covers the travel expenses for its Premier Open team (and team members have even pitched in to help some Seniors to travel to the Worlds). Are you saying that Philly BRIBES its paddlers, too? If Philly did not cover the expenses of its Premier Open team, many of those paddlers would not go to the Worlds. But no one accuses Philly of bribing paddlers.

Paying for someone's trip who proves themselves worthy of paddling in the US team Premier boat is one thing. Accusations of paying for someone's vote is a cheap shot plain and simple.

"The Manayunk Dragon Boat Racing Team
Team USA:
Coach - Mike Blundetto"

"That seems correct. Blundetto was the coach of the US team that went to Taiwan."

You losers are too much, you are embarrassed getting caught in your own criticisms. You slam the PDBA for putting things up on their site about Team USA yet when you have plain and simple on your web site a statement that says the Manayunk team is team USA you try and say it is not ordered how it appears on the web site. Read your own site, Team USA is linked to MDBR team not his name. You are embarassing yourself once again, anyone can go to your site and see all over the place that Manayunk, which you earlier glorified as being a composite team from all, over labels itself as TEAM USA. You also know that the site has not been updated since before the Taiwan trip happened so your above excuse is another misdirection from a group that has perfected it.

Finally, the original criticism of the PDBA by 134 PM is invalid as every paddler who gets funding from the PDBA for the Premier USA team is required to join the club, they are MEMBERS of the PDBA so the organization can put down that the PDBA/Team USA competed in Prague with complete legitimacy.

"Finally, the original criticism of the PDBA by 134 PM is invalid as every paddler who gets funding from the PDBA for the Premier USA team is required to join the club, they are MEMBERS of the PDBA so the organization can put down that the PDBA/Team USA competed in Prague with complete legitimacy."


Right. And those who paddle for Manayunk are members of Manayunk. Manayunk members paddled for Team USA in Sydney (IDBF). So both the PDBA and Manayunk can correctly claim to be part of Team USA. What's the big deal here?

Just because I signed a piece of paper saying I'm a member of PDBA doesn't mean s**t and you know it.

PDBA did NOT compete in Prague (or Sydney for that matter).
Team USA did.
Ask any of us if we are members of PDBA (no matter what that paper says).

Same goes for Blundetto's misfits.

And having the gall to actually set it up so you can claim that you (whichever "club" we're talking about) are in fact "Team USA" by manipulating the paperwork is utter crap.

Classic Philly (and by Philly I mean Mac's folks AND Mike's folks).

If you are on the senior women, or gm open or women, then maybe your have a case, but PDBA did win the other bids at nationals so it was them who selected the team, did the coaching, and the fundraising. They have some right to say it was them who raced in Prague.

The question is, what happened to you in Prague, if you were really there, that made you hate Philly? I'm sure if you identified yourself than nobody would mistake you for a PDBA member again, as you would likely not be asked back to team USA, unless you won a bid at Nationals. Something that makes me question the truth of your statements is that I'm not sure there is actually a paper that you sign saying you're a member of PDBA in order to race under the USA banner. Anyone know for sure?

"If you are on the senior women, or gm open or women, then maybe your have a case, but PDBA did win the other bids at nationals so it was them who selected the team, did the coaching, and the fundraising. They have some right to say it was them who raced in Prague."


That's funny. So all that matters is who is the coach and who raises the money? What if, after the national individual tryouts, none of the paddlers on the U.S. Premier team were PDBA members (until they became "members" by being named to Team USA)? The PDBA would stil claim to be Team USA even with none of its true members on the team? Ridiculous.

In the above case, McNamara would legitimately be called a Team USA Coach, but the entire PDBA could not rightly claim taht it was the PDBA who raced in Prague.

This was just published by the IDBF, the naysayers regarding both Canada and the USA need to face the music. Both countries did very well with Canada having the second highest total Premier gold medals and the USA having the second highest total Premier medals. The predicted poor performances by both countries against the European powers just did not happen.

International Dragon Boat Federation
9th WORLD DRAGON BOAT RACING CHAMPIONSHIPS
Premier Division World Championships Medals Table
all race distances

Gold Silver Bronze Total
CHINA 3 5 1 9
CANADA 3 1 1 5
PHILIPPINES 2 1 - 3
UNITED STATES 1 3 2 6
RUSSIA 1 - 2 3
SLOVAK REP 1 - - 1
GERMANY - 2 1 3
CZECH REP - - 3 3

Actually Canada tied China for most Premier Gold medals, congrats to both countries in a tough field.

"This was just published by the IDBF, the naysayers regarding both Canada and the USA need to face the music."

Face what music? No one denied that these medals were won. The teams who won them should be proud for winning those medals in the particular races where they were awarded. But each team's overall performance is based on Nations Cup points, not medal count. The U.S. proudly raised the 2007 Nations Cup while having fewer Premier medals than Canada that year in Sydney because the U.S. Premier teams performed better overall.

You have to consider all the placements of each team, not just the medals won.

"But each team's overall performance is based on Nations Cup points, not medal count."

Repeat the above over and over sucking your thumb, holding your blankie and rocking in your chair. Yeah, they got medals and won a world championship but their points were not that high so there I feel better.

Every elite paddler that I know would trade all their "points" and all their silver and bronze of their entire career for ONE GOLD MEDAL in the world championships. It is about being the best on a particular day in a particular event and never having anyone being able to take that from you. Of course, you just don't get it since you are just sniping from the sidelines.

All the paddlers you know and all that blah blah blah is meaninless because at things like the Olympics a gold is a gold in paddle sports and has no impact on any overall results.

A gymnast in the team competition may argue the point with you and for Dragon Boating your country wins the Worlds by accumulating Premier Points SO THAT IS WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT.

"A gymnast in the team competition may argue the point with you and for Dragon Boating your country wins the Worlds by accumulating Premier Points SO THAT IS WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT."


Precisely. Winning a Gold in one event is great, but let's be real here. Each country has its SAME TEAM competes in four different events. So what REALLY counts is the Nations Cup points.

"Every elite paddler that I know would trade all their "points" and all their silver and bronze of their entire career for ONE GOLD MEDAL in the world championships. It is about being the best on a particular day in a particular event and never having anyone being able to take that from you."

Only if they are in denial.

This was clearly written by someone from the U.S. So when are you going to relinquish the 2007 Nations Cup to Canada? You claim that gold medals are the most important thing, and you would trade in your "points." Canada Premier teams won more Golds than the U.S. in 2007. Canada gets the Cup!

Ludicrous, no?

And so is your claim that "It is about being the best on a particular day in a particular event". That's true in other sports. Dragonboat is the only sport I can think of that gives four separate sets of medals for four different day's events to the same teams. Yes, it's cool to win the 200 even though, say, you were mediocre in the 1000. But the goal is to have the best team at the Worlds, not the best team on Saturday only.

As long as the same teams are entered in each distance, there really only should be the Nations Cup, not medals for each distance.

Kinda like how golf tournaments are run. Imagine if the guy who came in 5th at the PGA Championship told everyone that his having the best score in the second round was so very important because that meant he was "the best on a particular day."

Or the team that lost the World Series, 4 games to 1, telling everyone that they were "the best on a particular day" when they won Game 2.

"As long as the same teams are entered in each distance, there really only should be the Nations Cup, not medals for each distance. "

Brilliant solution! No medals for individual Premier events, that would really be great, give out one Nations Cup trophy and no medals for the 20 Premier Open teams, 11 women's teams and 18 Premier mixed teams and the hundreds of paddlers that competed in those events in Prague. Every team but one goes home with nothing and each individual even those on the winning team gets nothing.

Heck with the US giving back the Nations Cup (which is the single most irritating thing that you ever witnessed), you guys should start a campaign to have all the paddlers from all over the world send their medals back from every world championship because after all it is only the team points that count. You can start with Blundetto's two gold medals won under McNamara, the 1997 one that is tainted anyway and the 2004 one where he stated "too high a price was paid" for it because outside paddlers were brought in. Surely he has no great attachment to those medals and it would be a nice way to kick off your campaign. I am sure others would follow.

You Manayunk guys really are progressive thinkers! And, it's good to know that you would not have accepted a medal for the 1000 meter race in Taiwan if you could have made up those 25 seconds you got hammered by since you were well behind on points over there. Think of the time this would save on needless flag raising ceremonies and all that useless hand shaking and congratulating that goes on.

"Dragonboat is the only sport I can think of that gives four separate sets of medals for four different day's events to the same teams. Yes, it's cool to win the 200 even though, say, you were mediocre in the 1000. But the goal is to have the best team at the Worlds, not the best team on Saturday only."

Honestly, do you even watch sports?

Running: different distances, different medal winners

Swimming: different distances, different medal winners

Canoe/Kayak: different distances, different medal winners (and this is a good example because they have TEAM boats as well as individuals and doubles)

So, yeah, you can be the 500m champion but not the 200m champion or the 1000m champion. Makes perfect sense. The "overall championship" is really the most artificial, since it isn't decided by a single race but a combination of a bunch of them. Not that I'm arguing against this, I like overall championships like the Nations Cup as well, it rewards consistency.

So you can all keep your medals, and no need to strike your name off the Nations Cup. It's all good now. You're welcome.


The funny thing about the participants in this argument is that they're so dead set against each other that both sides are putting up really stupid arguments, simply because they MUST disagree.

Oh, 198.

How many of those events have the same participants winning those medals with an overall national winner declared?

If lets say you had the 100, 200, 400, 800 and the relays all performed by the same group of 4-6 people and then there was a "Sprinting Nations Cup" at the end then you would be talking apples and apples.

You basically quoted a bunch of solo events and stated that just because they all involve running its the same thing even though NONE of those results actually contribute towards any country based point system to decide who is the overall winner. The winner of the 100m is the winner of the 100m and that isolated medal is separate from any other event.

It's so simple as to be ridiculous.

At the Dragon Boating Worlds, in order for you country to WIN, you must accumulate the most Premier points based on finishes in each of the distances. It makes no difference what a medal means in another sport, and yes standing on the Gold podium at any given distance and hearing your anthem sung is awesome, but the goal is the NATIONS CUP.

September 9 2009, 2:33 PM very good points and well articulated. I don't agree that their shouldn't be individual distance medals of course, but you captured the overall importance of the Nations Cup versus a single medal nicely.

The idea is similar to the canoe/kayak system where points are accumulated by clubs. And by the by, in Track and Field at the Provincial/National Club level in Canada, there is such thing as a club championship involving overall points. Look up athletics.ca at results or otfa.ca

A week ago I challenged the individual who didn't believe I was not with the Philly camp to email me at the account I set up.

I have received no e-mail from the accuser and can only conclude that the American poster has no spine.

I'm still waiting. Once you get in touch with me I'm more than happy to have a phone discussion. I'll pick up the long distance charges.

"I'll pick up the long distance charges."

How generous. No one charges for long distance anymore.

"

"I'll pick up the long distance charges."

How generous. No one charges for long distance anymore."

I'm still waiting.

And in Canada, they charge for long distance. So to the ****-disturber trying to imply I'm from Philly and distorting the truth, the offer is still open.

No team member that made Team USA should have to join PDBA. this is a load of crap that Bob requires them do so. It is, I believe a way of subsidizing certain athletes that wouldn't go unless Bob offered some funding. While PDBA has the legitimate right to charge dues and have as a bylaw that those in "good standing" have some benefit, it should be held to member vote that moneys collected support those Team USA members. Now if they are going to accept support from PDBA, then of course they should be members in good standing. But if they don't receive any support from PDBA, THEY SHOULDN'T HAVE TO JOIN, even though they are on Team USA. (unless it's a requirement of USDBF that a team member has to be a PDBA member? I wonder)
Also, if club moneys are helping fund paddlers, I wonder if it's equally distributed and I wonder if all members are fully aware of the practice. From my understanding it is NOT EQUALLY distributed, but I have no proof other than my personal experiences of never receiving support. I believe there should be an investigation into the books of PDBA and all their travel arrangements since their inception. The unequal distribution of funds may be a violation of their bylaws and be thievery and fraud in the State of Pennsyvania. Perhaps some of you lawyer types ought to look into it.

Hmmm... if memory serves, wasn't the above the supposed issue that caused the Mike / Mac rift?

Or was it that the "funded" outside paddler replaced Mike in the boat?

I can't remember...

It's money they raised, they should be able to do whatever they want with it.

As for team USA being members of PDBA, does anybody actually have experience signing this thing? I could see it being required for Nationals when they race under the PDBA name, but this is the first I've heard of people needing to pay membership to receive funding.

As I understand it, it works like this. According to the laws governing non-profits or perhaps just the bylaws of the PDBA, money raised can only be spent on members (or other non-profits/charities). So when non-PDBA members try out and qualify for the U.S. Premier teams, they are granted "PDBA member" status in order to qualify for PDBA funds. I've heard that these recruits never have to pay the membership fees that the regular members pay annually. Maybe a PDBA member can clarify?

What intrigues me is that regular PDBA members, especially Seniors and others who have little chance of making the Premier team and who receive no funding from the PDBA if they go to Worlds as Seniors, spend so much time raising money for the U.S. Premier teams. Fascinating. Whatever works.

Out of town paddlers generally pay a reduced membership fee, since they do not get to take daily advantage of PDBA coaching and boats and other team equipment.

All funded out of town paddlers pay a membership fee, the amount of support for Premier paddlers is even across the men and women no matter where they come from, if the out of town person does not pay ahead of time the reimbursement for airfare or whatever is reduced by the dues. Others (seniors, etc.) on the US teams who paddle in boats organized by the PDBA do not have to become members, some do anyway.

Those in the organization support the Premier paddlers as a matter of principle. When they raise funds they do retain a portion for their own trip if they make the team but part of what is raised goes to the team fund for Premier paddlers. There is no secret to this, all the members know this is how we operate and if they don't want to raise funds for the national team they don't have to but virtually everyone helps out. Many were once Premier themselves with the same benefit and are passing it down, others do it as being part of a successful program, their reward comes from seeing friends go to worlds and from racing in the states/Canada with them.

There has been support for non-Premier paddlers on a needs basis. The coach regularly refuses the coach's stipend or directs fees from clinics he runs to others or the general fund. On occasion when there is a special circumstance individual members kick in to make sure another can go on the trip. This year one of the senior women funded the entire trip (beyond what team funds went to him) of an inner city kid who made the youth boat.