Paddle tests are clearly the best method of choosing paddlers for a team (of course you must also consider paddling style).
So , what are different ideas on the best way to conduct a paddle test ? OC1 ? OC2 reduce the advantage of experienced OC1 paddlers ? 100m , 300m, 500m ? 1min. , 2min. ?
One try or several?

In my own opinion, OC1 is the best way to choose. As for the advantages of an experience OC1 paddler, well this might sound harsh but if you want to join a team and you know that you will do an OC1 test, well make time to practice in an OC... As for distance I would do one sprint (200m) and one longueur distance(1km)... It should show the "explosion" as well as the stamina...

Or do an OC2 test with the person in the back not paddling, only steering.

Give everyone enough notice that you are doing the test. It's up to them to find the time & opportunity to get some practice in an OC1 if they don't already own one. The "gamers" are the ones that will do so. The complainers are the ones that won't. Which do you want on your team?

Part of the test is seeing who is dedicated enough to prepare.

I've always thought about implementing an OC2 test that way. But wouldn't having a deadweight slow the boat down? If you are testing paddling ability, wouldn't a slower speed be less indicative of a person's ability to catch water at more faster more realistic speeds?

September 24 2009, 11:10 AM

Nice to see I'm not the only one thinking that way...

Re: September 24 2009, 11:12 AM

I'm in the opinion that an OC2 would be more reflective. I believe that having a heavier boat would be more reflective of a dragonboat. Second reason is that the test is not on steering ability, so having a second person doing the steering would be preferred.

This is just my opinion, however, I'd like to see more thoughts.

OC2! You pansies.

I heard a crew in TO used a dragon boat for this test. Coach steering the boat with the individual being tested paddling with a team mate of their size sitting beside them to balance the boat.

So lets do the math: (Pulling your weight x 2) + the weight of a dragon boat + the weight of your fat @$$ coach = you make the crew.

Now thats a test.

For Mayfair we used to use an OC-2 with someone sitting in the front seat to steer. This distance was usually something that would take just over a minute.

It isn't a particularly sensitive test (i.e. in identifying differences between paddlers of similar abilities) but it does help show the extremes (i.e. paddlers who don't yet have the feel for the water and who have a lot of slippage).

You will see some paddlers who do well in the test with a technique that may not be compatible with what you can do in the dragon boat.

However, the best reason to do the test is to create an incentive for team members to get out paddling more often in a smaller boat, where they get the immediate feedback about stroke efficiency that you can, unfortunately, never get in a dragon boat.

"I heard a crew in TO used a dragon boat for this test. Coach steering the boat with the individual being tested paddling with a team mate of their size sitting beside them to balance the boat.

So lets do the math: (Pulling your weight x 2) + the weight of a dragon boat + the weight of your fat @$$ coach = you make the crew."


Hey, don't call Rob a fat @$$ - he's just, um, cuddly.

That's not a test of individual skill if 2 people are paddling so its a waste of time. As someone else said, OC1 is the best method simply because it will force people to spend more time in OC's by themselves learning

Its not rob

I think that on paper the OC1 is the best test.

I also agree that those who are keen will find the time get some experience in them and at the very worst, they will be all the better for the small boat training. Especially if they can do some sessions with someone who knows that they are doing from their team, one of the clubs or Peter Buday's Preformance sessions for example.

That said, I can understand how some people who do not own an OC1 would be at a disadvantage to those who do or who go out regularly. A couple sessions a week for a couple weeks to "get familiar" is no replacement for long term experience.

Maybe the OC2 method would be the fairest, but I think you would also need to have a small a 2nd person as possible to help normalize things for the lighter paddlers.

So, lets say you are doing a 300-330m test which should give results in the 1:50's range for guys and 2:00's range for gals (depending on conditions, boats etc). What would you consider to be a material difference in times?

Is a 1/10th of a second enough to say, A is stronger than B? Is it a second? 5 seconds? Does size/weight come right out of the equation?

"That's not a test of individual skill if 2 people are paddling so its a waste of time. As someone else said, OC1 is the best method simply because it will force people to spend more time in OC's by themselves learning"

Huh? If you are referring to the test with the dragonboat, you need to learn to read, nowhere does it say 2 people are paddling. It simply says a teammate to balance out the boat.

However, I do agree that OC1 is the best test. But for most teams where people haven't paddled in an OC1 and might be at a disadvantage from the steering part, I believe OC2 testing is a good compromise. And to make it perhaps fairer even, everyone needs to use their dragonboat paddle as opposed to an OC paddle?

If you're just using an OC1/OC2 as a test, then I think you have more problems...

there are a few other threads out there that you haven't posted a jerky response on yet

"So, lets say you are doing a 300-330m test which should give results in the 1:50's range for guys and 2:00's range for gals (depending on conditions, boats etc). What would you consider to be a material difference in times?

Is a 1/10th of a second enough to say, A is stronger than B? Is it a second? 5 seconds? Does size/weight come right out of the equation?"

I don't think the OC-1 test is sensitive enough to be used to differentiate between paddlers except at extreme differences (i.e. more than 5 [or even more] seconds). It is only one factor of many that can be helped to select paddlers for a crew.

It is useful as a training motivator and as a tool to identify those paddlers who look good in the gym and in the crew, but who clearly haven't figured out the connection with the water, and to identify those paddlers who don't stand out in off water testing, but have clearly figured out how to find the water connection.

Some coaches use the OC testing as a crutch to justify hard decisions regarding who makes the crew, but it should never be used in isolation.

See, Guru, now that is constructive response.

And I'm not just saying that because I agree with it.

Meh... I said my piece in a post above.

I did the OC1 and the dragonboat test.
I think the 330m OC1 test is good because you get times closer to a 500m race and the results depends on starting power and endurance. But the experience on the OC is a factor.

as for the dragonboat test, it's essentially a power test. Think about paddling like the first 5 strokes of a start for about a minute. The problem is an empty boat rides much higher on the water, so the water is really far and heavy. I don't like it

"Give everyone enough notice that you are doing the test. It's up to them to find the time & opportunity to get some practice in an OC1 if they don't already own one. The "gamers" are the ones that will do so. The complainers are the ones that won't. Which do you want on your team?"


That's easy to say when you own an OC-1, isn't it?

We did 2 OC1 tests , about 300m and 2k+. The 2k really seperates out people with about 3 or 4 minutes difference between fastest and slowest.
I think doing a short test around 1min.or less for power and explosive speed along with a long test for fitness is useful.
I think it might be interesting to have people do a 300m test several times in a given period , say 3 times in an hour , to test recovery and the ability to do multiple tests in a day.

Multiple races in a day. Beer slip.

It depends on the team. If the team uses an outrigger-style stroke in the dragonboat, then an OC-1 test is a good test. If the team uses a different stroke style in the dragonboat, the OC-1 going to tell little, except at the extremes.

Paddle tests always test the ability to move a boat. This involves power and efficency , nothing else. If you cannot move an OC1 you cannot move a dragon boat. The difficulty arises because the most efficent way to move an OC1 is not the stroke most teams use , although it probably should be.In Prague most teams were using similar strokes ( except the Chinese ) , which is close to what works in a paddle test.

"In Prague most teams were using similar strokes ( except the Chinese ) , which is close to what works in a paddle test."

The Chinese had the the best team there. Your paddle-test theory just went out the window.

Chinese style is an effective way to do any short sprint , including OC1 (yes , I have tried it ).

OC2 test with one person paddling is the best since:
1. An OC1 is way lighter than a Dragon Boat and as a result has a very different feel - want to get the boat weight / paddler ratio as close to a Dragon Boat as possible.
2. Don't have to worry about steering, just like a Dragon Boat. Have paddlers go inside the Alm so stability is not an issue.

An OC1 is not better because it forces people to practice for the time trial since:
A) They would do this for an OC2 as well.
B) Should be focusing on logging as much time in a Dragon Boat rather than OC racing. It's better to spend 4 hours in a DB than 2 hours in a DB and 2 in an outrigger. Outrigger is cross training, but the motion and the stresses on the body are still quite different than DB.

Doing a paddling test in a DB is not a good test since the boat is much too heavy for one person to paddle in (overrates strength versus paddling ability).

The 500m distance may also be too much if you have the boat weight / paddler ratio close to a Dragon Boat. OC's are slower so if the boat so considering a shorter course such as 400m is reasonable (about the same time on the water). Figure out the trade off between OC weight and distance to find the right balance.

Time in an OC > Time in a dragon boat. If your team is at a level where they are doing OC testing than 1 hour of time spent in an OC is much more beneficial than 1 hour in a dragon boat.

What do the best teams use? That should tell you what the best tests are.

Imitating a winner is a decent enough strategy, but it lacks imagination. Sometimes the winner is the innovator, not the imitator. So do a test that makes sense, not just because Mayfair did it, for example.

Same thing about the technique debate on the other thread. The Chinese won the Nations Cup, does that mean their stroke is the best? Does it mean it wasn't the best technique for the last 8-10 years but it is again now?

The point is that you should think about it, do what makes sense and not do it just because someone else did it that way.

There is no perfect test. All are flawed simulations.

I think OC1 and OC2 tests have their merit. Even rec canoe with a steersperson and a paddler is okay. I prefer OC1.

Single paddler in a dragon boat is just plain dumb, IMO. Just what the hell is that testing? Your ability to move 1000lbs all by yourself? Yeah, that will come in handy... Recipe for an injury if ever I've seen one.

Well if you go purely by weight, then an OC1 would be much closer to a single persons share of a loaded Dragon Boat.

Boat is 550lb or maybe closer to 600lb with head, tail and drum. Say 300lb for the cox and drummer combined (if you have a 100lb cox and drummer then great, but your not the norm and it doesn't make that much of a difference for this equation anyway)

So that's about 900lb (OK, 905), divided by 20 paddlers is 45lb. 45lb is a lot closer to what an OC1 weighs compared to an OC2 + the second person steering. It's not even close. I would think that unless the OC2 has some kind of exponentially huge hydrodynamic advantage over the DB (like it has zero resistance through the water) that it would heavily favor bigger stronger folks similar to how an ERG favors taller people.

I don't think steering is the biggest issue. I think with an hour or two in a boat people can get the hang of steering enough for it not to make a material difference in the timings. I think that being able to paddle aggressively without taking a swim would be the bigger issue. It simply takes time to get comfortable paddling off Ama, weight distribution etc on the catch and stroke. I mean sure anyone can hop in, lean help and paddle right without swimming, but you won't exactly being paddling at your best there.

So it would seem that the best paddle test in relation to what you would be pulling in a Dragon Boat would be an OC1, with everyone getting a couple hours to figure out the steering, but with the Ama rigged on your paddle side. This would obviously limit the boat models available for right side paddlers to use.

I would do a roughly 45s test (200m) and a 2min test (500m).

OK, how many OC-1 sales reps have posted on this thread?

I don't see teams buying OC1's just to do paddle testing and I also highly doubt paddlers are running out to by OC1's just to prepare for them.

1. Time in an OC is only more adventagious than time in a Dragon Boat if a paddler is developing feel for the water. Once you have feel, it is definetly better to practice what you race. I've been in great OC shape just to come back and get spanked by the much heavier and asymetric resistance of a DB. Furthermore, most DB technique is substantially different than OC (at least if you are using a proper OC bent blade).

2. Resistance in a DB is much greater than an OC due to drag - with OC's being highly boyant and low resistance. Personally I feel the OC2 is a much closer feel to a DB - where OC1 the boat responds just too easily.

3. Ok the steering thing isn't a big deal. I recommend running the trial with a GPS anyways - setting it to beep after 500m so if you go a little crooked it doesn't matter and you can look at the 500m profile to see who can pace themselves properly and who gets the boat moving fastest off the line.

4. In terms of distance we used to run 500m and 1000m erg tests and the 500m was almost always a perfect indicator of the 1000m. Unless your team is super hard core I'd stick to the closest thing to a typical race.

There are a few clubs that have purchased OC1s and many DBers have aquired OC1s. The primary goal is to learn to paddle better. Improved paddle test results from increased time in an OC1 are principly from improved paddling efficency and fitness , both directly transferable to dragon boat. In my opinion , only a minor portion of the improvement (after the first hour) is from learning how to paddle OC1.
I must also disagree with the poster who thinks time spent in a dragon boat is more useful than training in a small boat. Small boat paddling is far superior to dragon boating for learning paddling efficency. The argument is suported by the composition of the Canadian national teams , most of whom are small boat paddlers. Many of the teams from other countries are also small boat paddlers.

"I must also disagree with the poster who thinks time spent in a dragon boat is more useful than training in a small boat. Small boat paddling is far superior to dragon boating for learning paddling efficency. The argument is suported by the composition of the Canadian national teams , most of whom are small boat paddlers. Many of the teams from other countries are also small boat paddlers."


That's not a strong argument though. The reason why so many dragon boaters are also small-boat paddlers may just be because most teams use small boats for testing. So maybe the testing criteria just favors those who are most familiar with that testing method? A couple of people here are trying to claim that a couple of hours in an OC-1 is all you need to get comfortable with it. I find it hard to believe that a couple of hours will allow a talented paddlers to be on the same level in OC-1 testing as a guy who paddles OC-1 all the time.

"2. Resistance in a DB is much greater than an OC due to drag - with OC's being highly boyant and low resistance."


That's an illusion. How long will it take your DB team to paddle 500 meters? How long will it take you to paddle an OC-1 500 meters? I assure you that it takes you longer to paddle 500 meters in an OC-1. So there is actually more resistance in an OC-1 than a DB with 20 paddlers.

"That's an illusion. How long will it take your DB team to paddle 500 meters? How long will it take you to paddle an OC-1 500 meters? I assure you that it takes you longer to paddle 500 meters in an OC-1. So there is actually more resistance in an OC-1 than a DB with 20 paddlers."

I wonder about this myself. Does lack of speed = more resistance?

I agree that a 500m in OC1 will take longer than a 500m in dragon boat, with 19 other paddlers. Does this say reisistance is higher, or just that boat speed is lower? Is that the same thing?

If it is, then the argument in favour of OC2's takes a hit as they are much, much heavier (bigger boat + non paddling steersperson). That test will inordinately favour the larger paddler.

Exactly what is the chinese stroke? Please do tell.

"That's an illusion. How long will it take your DB team to paddle 500 meters? How long will it take you to paddle an OC-1 500 meters? I assure you that it takes you longer to paddle 500 meters in an OC-1. So there is actually more resistance in an OC-1 than a DB with 20 paddlers."


a DB with 20pp going faster than an OC1 has nothing to do with resistance, but the fact that there are 19 other paddlers (assuming you're not comparing Larry Cain in an OC1 to a 'Z' Division team). More paddlers = more speed (assuming again that they are of similar paddling fitness and ability). An OC2 will always be faster than an OC1 similar level paddlers and an OC6 will always be faster than OC1s & OC2s with similar lever paddlers.

As for resistance, simple physics dictates that the more surface area in contact with water, the more resistance (friction). Therefore a dragon boat will have much more resistance with it's larger contact patch and wider hull than an OC1. There is no illusion here.

hull speed is a function of length.

"As for resistance, simple physics dictates that the more surface area in contact with water, the more resistance (friction). Therefore a dragon boat will have much more resistance with it's larger contact patch and wider hull than an OC1. There is no illusion here. "

You're clueless. Of course a DB has more resistance than an OC-1 -- when empty! But we're discussing OC-1 testing and how it compares to the resistance of a DB with 20 paddlers. With 20 paddlers, each DB paddler has far less resistance than a single paddler in an OC-1. That's why a DB will easily beat an OC-1 every time (assuming similar talent in the OC-1 and the DB, of course.)

"hull speed is a function of length."

And width and weight...

Hull speed is also a function of hull speed. Differential equations anyone?

The Canadian National team that went to Prague did OC1 time trials. That would suggest that at the highest level of DB paddling OC1 time trials are indicative of paddling ability. Its pretty simple, who can move the boat from point A to point B the fastest.

Ditto for the US team

So what are the OC1 tests comprised of for both the Canadian and US teams?
Distances? Is technique evaluated during the test?

What testing did China do?

Smoke a pack, run 5k, smoke another pack, paddle a piece of wood 500m with a branch.

Love the racists on this board...

The joke is that the Chinese team is famous for smoking. You watch them practice, they're smoking 30 seconds before they hit the water and 30 seconds after the get off the boat.

You want to call that racism? It's pretty marginal.

Exactly, that was a light hearted joke on the smoking and has nothing to do with any racism.

Relax a bit people

Chinese stroke is similar to a whitewater C-boat stroke. Powerful stab catch , quick crunch and pull with the bottom hand shoulder. Repeat VERY quickly. All front end.

Hull speed as defined inhydrodynamics:

Hull speed in mph = 1.4 times the square root of the waterline length of the boat.
This is the maximum speed that can be easily acheived. Hull speed in shallow water is less because the waves created by the vesel drag on the bottom. Going faster than hull speed the relationship between speed and energy becomes a cubic function i.e. twice as fast requires 8 times the power.
When you try to exceed hull speed you are trying to climb your own bow wave , like a motor boat getting up on plane or dragon boats in lane 3 in Prague.
All boats with the same length have the same hull speed but efficent designs require less energy to acheive hull speed.
Top teams race at more than hull speed , but not much more.

"You're clueless. Of course a DB has more resistance than an OC-1 -- when empty! But we're discussing OC-1 testing and how it compares to the resistance of a DB with 20 paddlers. With 20 paddlers, each DB paddler has far less resistance than a single paddler in an OC-1. That's why a DB will easily beat an OC-1 every time (assuming similar talent in the OC-1 and the DB, of course.)"

Without getting into any physics, I find the resistance much greater since if I increase the amount of pressure on my blade in a DB, the boat does not respond like at OC and the pressure is forced back into my body (since a DB is very heavy for one person to push any faster than it is already going). Clearly the calibre of the team matters, so maybe if I hopped on Mayfair the water would be flying by and I'd have a lot of trouble finding resistance - probably feeling more like an OC1 or even sweeter.

So maybe I'm wrong depending on a teams calibre - but I know for my own feel in the boat an OC1 is much more responsive to pressure on the blade and I find that it doesn't wear on my body to the same extent when going for about the same amount of time. For example, I can crank out 6K of outrigger racing going all out and barely be sore the next day where as if I did the same thing in a DB I'd be wrecked - and it's not just technique. That's part of the reason I love OC so much, you can go hella far and then get up the next day and do it again.

Funny , I get just as much resistance in an OC as a DB if I am going the same time. All out for 2 minutes feel just about the same kind of miserable in any boat.

Maybe that has something to do with your technique PowerDemon. Regardless, it seems OC1 is the best test if thats what the CAN and US nationals teams used. So suck it up and get some OC1 practice. You dont need to buy, you can easily rent by the hour.

Re: Above, those last sentences weren't directed at you PD : )

If you go to this test be prepared for problems as some who are on paper stronger/fitter/younger/etc. will be beaten in the test by folks they "know" they are better than in the dragon boat. You will hear excuses and unless the coach lays the law down it will cause problems. Along the same lines it is best if everyone tests every year with no free passes.

"Maybe that has something to do with your technique PowerDemon."

Yes, finding pressure in the water is bad

Then there are coaches who run paddle tests and are suprised by the results so they deside the tests are meaningless.

Then you know you are on the wrong team. It's hard to know who's a better paddler until you single them out and make them perform on their own.

"Then there are coaches who run paddle tests and are suprised by the results so they deside the tests are meaningless."

You shouldn't discount the results, but clearly there are other factors such as style, timing, and fit (weight, height), that also matter in a Dragon Boat.

"Then there are coaches who run paddle tests and are suprised by the results so they deside the tests are meaningless. "

LOL time to get a new coach! OC testing is the only way to test someone's true ability. In a Dragon Boat people hide behind 19 others. People always make excuses after OC testing on my team...oh the stroke is different, the steering, the paddle, the waves etc etc. Luckily our coach is smart enough to realize how valuable an OC test is. When our coach said he would be running OC trials 3 times in the season people ran out and got some OC team, it was amazing how much our team improved. In OC you can FEEL how each stroke contributes to your boat speed. You can try slight variations on your stroke and really understand what works and what doesnt.

"Then there are coaches who run paddle tests and are suprised by the results so they deside the tests are meaningless. "

LOL time to get a new coach! OC testing is the only way to test someone's true ability. In a Dragon Boat people hide behind 19 others. People always make excuses after OC testing on my team...oh the stroke is different, the steering, the paddle, the waves etc etc. Luckily our coach is smart enough to realize how valuable an OC test is. When our coach said he would be running OC trials 3 times in the season people ran out and got some OC time, it was amazing how much our team improved. In OC you can FEEL how each stroke contributes to your boat speed. You can try slight variations on your stroke and really understand what works and what doesnt.

Any small boat will improve your stroke and efficency , especially if you have some sort of feed back on how changing your stroke affects boat speed. GPS is great as is paddling with other boats , nothing like getting left behind to motivate you. It is always surprising what works to move a boat , it is not the stroke one wouls expect.

For me personally, I think that the C1 stroke is the closest I felt to a Dragon Boat stroke, even though kneeling feels different to sitting. The problem is that most people cannot balance in a C1, so doing a test in the boat would be useless. The oc1 is the next closest to a DB stroke. Using a Dragon boat blade in the oc will help to get closer to the feel of a dragon boat. Doing different distances in the oc1 (200m and 500m) will give the coach some ideas who should be spared for those distances. If there are people who are on the bubble to get a seat, racing head to head is a fair way to see who deserves the spot. I rather win the seat on my solo performance racing, not on who the coach favors. I don't like oc2 trials, because when racing head to head the outcome may be due in part to steering and the weight of the steers. I also feel solo boat training is as important as DB training. DB is good for working on timing and crew style and solo boats are good for working on getting the feel of the water, figuring out what makes a boat move. I also think the more different solo boats you try, the better you become. C1, K1, Oc1, all offer something.

"For me personally, I think that the C1 stroke is the closest I felt to a Dragon Boat stroke, even though kneeling feels different to sitting. The problem is that most people cannot balance in a C1, so doing a test in the boat would be useless. The oc1 is the next closest to a DB stroke. Using a Dragon boat blade in the oc will help to get closer to the feel of a dragon boat. Doing different distances in the oc1 (200m and 500m) will give the coach some ideas who should be spared for those distances. If there are people who are on the bubble to get a seat, racing head to head is a fair way to see who deserves the spot. I rather win the seat on my solo performance racing, not on who the coach favors. I don't like oc2 trials, because when racing head to head the outcome may be due in part to steering and the weight of the steers."

I disagree. Other than K boats C1 is about the furthest thing from Dragon Boat, much more hip and leg driven and not nearly as compact. Dragon boat is much more compact and has a very different feel. While paddling C1 will make you a better Dragon Boat paddler (once you can balance) it would be a weaker test than an OC of who is a good Dragon Boat paddler.

Given all the factors that go into a Dragon Boat such as timing, weight, paddling side, attitude, an OC1 test for seats may be fair, but not a good way of setting up your boat to perform its best. A coach should know the two paddlers are roughly equivalent and look at the fit in the boat.

An OC1 trial has the same issue with steering, only worse since the paddler needs to focus on steering and paddling. An OC2 trial should always have the same person steering - probably your coach if they are light enough, so this is not an issue. Use a GPS if you are really worried about steering.

"Use a GPS if you are really worried about steering."

Are GPS's now accurate to less than a meter or two over 500 meters? If not, then using a GPS to measure distance traveled over a short span like 500 meters is way too inaccurate to be meaningful.

Yes, but since it would inaccurate for everyone, then results can be used, since it's a level playing field.

"Yes, but since it would inaccurate for everyone, then results can be used, since it's a level playing field."

That's completely incorrect. The inaccuracy of a GPS is "+/- x-meters". Suppose x=5. Then one paddler could paddle 505 meters and another paddler could paddle 495 meters. That's a 10-meter difference. If you've been using the GPS to test your paddlers, you've been screwing them.

Use two GPS's lol

How would using two GPS's solve the problem? You still wouldn't know which one to use and both could be off by the same amount.

I think he was kidding...but an average of two GPS's would make it more accurate.