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CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010 at 5:34 PM
anonymous 

 
Here is the slide on John Edward's slide show about Dragon Boat.

DRAGONBOAT
Key part of Multi-disciplinary Club structure
with Sprint at the core.
Fits with CKC-Sprint LTAD
Sport Canada will only recognize one national
paddling organization.
A DB Working Group is made up of CKC sport
leaders
CKC selected teams for ICF World
Championships; Poznan 2008, Korea 2009
and Szeged 2010

"Sprint at the Core" = Dragon Boaters second class citizens but are welcome to pay the same or more than others

What does "Sport Canada will only recognize on national paddling association" mean?

How do sprint athletes feel about the money spent to send those outstanding crews to ICF Worlds?

Comments?

 
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AuthorReply
DBC and CKC SRD Member

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 5:44 PM 

"Sprint at the Core" = Dragon Boaters second class citizens but are welcome to pay the same or more than others

Wrong.

"Sprint at the Core" acknowledges the central goal of the sprint racing discipline of CKC. John's presentation was at the Sprint Racing Discipline (SRD) AGM, not the full CKC AGM (i.e. it didn't include the slalom or marathon disciplines of CKC). There should be no surprise that clubs that are members of the CKC SRD would be expected to focus on sprint... just like the CKC whitewater/slalom and marathon clubs focus on their own disciplines.

However, the CKC SRD has acknowledged that many sprint clubs have dragonboat members and host dragonboat activities... that is why CKC has to find a way to support these members.

If the CKC SRD clubs treat dragon boaters like second class citizens, then the dragon boat paddlers will abandon the sprint clubs... this is the same conversation that happens at the DBC Board (and the boards of all other NSFs), i.e. how can we provide value to our members?

 
 
Anonymous

Two Princes

November 16 2010, 6:29 PM 

Hey Spin Doctor (catch the reference? never mind...)

"Sprint at the Core" does indeed mean dragon boat paddlers are second class citizens at a Canoe club.

Fine, that's how they want it and I wouldn't argue against it. Their club, their focus.

But it does very clearly say to me as a dragon boat paddler that CKC and ICF do not value me or my sport as highly as DBC or IDBF.

It's right there, plain as day. What more do we need to know about them or their agenda? "Them" and "their" chosen quite deliberately.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 7:11 PM 

Who cares about ckc. Really we are dragonboaters. I could not give a crap what ckc does. I`ve been to two worlds, and will race at nationals next july. I pay as much attention to ckc as I do to the track and field federation.


 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 7:13 PM 

"But it does very clearly say to me as a dragon boat paddler that CKC and ICF do not value me or my sport as highly as DBC or IDBF."

CKC has 3 disciplines: Sprint, whitewater, and marathon. The clubs in each discipline value their own discipline over the others (I paddled for a whitewater club which also had a sprint group, but it was clear that the whitewater paddling was the priority... the hope was that some sprint paddlers would get exposed to whitewater paddling, and get involved in that discipline).

Yes, the CKC SRD has sprint as its focus, but many sprint clubs have dragonboat members. The sprint clubs want to maintain their focus on sprint, but don't want to alienate their dragonboat members, if they believe that having the dragonboat members (who are often the parents of sprint paddlers) is good for the health of the club.

This doesn't mean that CKC or the ICF can't value dragonboat. ICF has set up dragonboat as a separate paddling discipline... CKC could do the same (i.e. like whitewater and marathon).

If you don't see any value, as a dragonboat paddler, having anything to do with a CKC sprint club, then no one is forcing you to do so. However, lots of dragonboat paddlers are involved with sprint clubs, and CKC needs to support them.

 
 
Anonymous

off

November 16 2010, 7:47 PM 

Support the sport all you can, but don't demean the efforts of the sport by touting pseudo "championships" jees, have some decency.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 9:13 PM 

the best thing that can happen to CKC is that their dragonboat initiative fails.

the worst thing is that it works, and the dragonboaters take over their boards and their clubs. sprint will not be the core activity in a club with 200 dragon boaters and 40 sprint canoers.

And as a sprint canoer, I resent every penny that is going to fund pathetic dragon boat paddlers going to Eurppe. Has anyone auditted CKC's books to make sure that wasn't money earmarked by Sport Canada to go to fund national team sprint initiatives?

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 9:37 PM 

"Has anyone auditted CKC's books to make sure that wasn't money earmarked by Sport Canada to go to fund national team sprint initiatives?"

Yes, there is an annual audit, and requirements from Sport Canada to demonstrate that Sport Canada funding only goes to support Olympic event related activities. CKC would be stupid to risk losing federal funding by using Sport Canada money for dragon boat.

It still is a valid question whether the domestic program money used to fund dragon boat paddlers to go to Europe (or Asia) might be better spent supporting development of sprint clubs.


 
 
Anonymous

Read "phoney"

November 16 2010, 9:49 PM 

"It still is a valid question whether the domestic program money used to fund dragon boat paddlers to go to Europe (or Asia) >for phoney "championships" might be better spent supporting development of sprint clubs."

 
 
ripped off

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 16 2010, 10:01 PM 

If there is so much money floating around CKC that they can waste "domestic money" on sending a bunch of masters to Europe to race a non sprint sport, than they should spend that domestic money on the sprint athletes, and give some of the Sport Canada money (our tax dollars) back to Sport Canada.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 17 2010, 7:25 AM 

how about spending like 4 million dollars sending 50 athletes, coaches and support staff to Mexico this falll...

meanwhile it takes over a year to get an MRI.

Rich countries have their priorities mixed up.

What I like about DB is that it's not dependant on tax money.

 
 
Anonymous

Sports

November 17 2010, 8:25 AM 

Done right, sports and athletic programs are money well spent.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 17 2010, 8:38 AM 

$4 million??? Did you just pull a number out of the air for effect? That is more than the entire CKC high performance annual budget, which includes all of the participation in international events.

Remember DBC is funding by an Ontario Trillium grant. If you check the Trillium website, they have a section titled "Where We Get Our Funding". All that it says there is: "The Ontario Trillium Foundation is an agency of the Government of Ontario." So much for dragon boat not relying on government funding!

Many dragon boat clubs in Ontario (and sprint clubs) also use Trillium grants for boats, equipment, and dock purchases. I think this is great, and have no problem with tax money being used to support healthy activities.

I just don't think it is fair to suggest that sprint canoeing relies exclusively on government funding, but dragon boat is pure.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 17 2010, 10:26 AM 

DBC is now self funding in that it now generates more revenue through membership fees and their national championships than it spends.

Dragon boat athletes receive $0 tax dollars for training and competing.

CKC's National Team budget is virtually entirely funded by Sport Canada $$$. They receive some sponsorships, notably from Mazda., but over 90% of the National team budget comes from Sport Canada Their domestic (club) structure is funded in a similar fashion to Dragon Boat.

I think the CKC argument re funding the Dragon Boat paddlers to go to ICF Worlds is that it's coming from a different pot - the Domestic pot of money - and as such it is appropriate.

I think outside of CKC staff, people (notably taxpayers) see an organization which is perceived to get 80-90% of it's overall budget funded by the government, and if you are wasting money, taxpayers believe they have a right to question it.

Any newspaper reporters out there? It would be interesting to delve into how the Sport Canada money is spent in an organziation like CKC - and specifically, how much actually ends up going to the athletes in Olympic events as opposed to non Olympic events and to support staff and administrators.

I'm not saying that it isn't working or well run, it's just when people (and I think many of the objections to the Dragon Boat athletes CKC funding is coming from the sprint athletes themselves) see money being wasted on initiatives like this, they start to question how all the money is being spent.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 17 2010, 11:50 AM 

"DBC is now self funding in that it now generates more revenue through membership fees and their national championships than it spends."

I didn't know that. As a DBC member, can you point me to where I can find the most recent financial statements? The last set I saw showed that it was Trillium that was keeping DBC going.


 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 7:57 PM 

$4 million? What an ignorant and misinformed statement.

Typical.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:05 PM 

$4 million to send people to Mexico is misinformed and makes no sense.

An understanding by taxpayers how much taxpayer money is going to CKC and how much of that is going to athletes in Olympic events is valid.

The perception that wasting CKC money sending masters aged dragon boaters to come last or next to last in a very inferior event, thereby calling into question all CKC spending is legit.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:11 PM 

"DBC is now self funding in that it now generates more revenue through membership fees and their national championships than it spends."

I didn't know that. As a DBC member, can you point me to where I can find the most recent financial statements?

Good question. Has anyone seen the latest DBC annual financial report?

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:26 PM 

I think their AGM is in the next couple weeks.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:28 PM 

The difference between DBCs books and CKC's books is CKC mostly exists on taxpayers dollars.
DBC did get Trillium money, but I think that is Lotto money not tax dollars, and it was a one time grant, not annual operating funds.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:41 PM 

Lottery money is even worse... a tax on the stupid. I believe the Trillium grant was for multiple years.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:50 PM 

DBC got $67,500 from Trillium in 2007, $57,500 in 2008, and $25,000 in 2009. Membership fees exceeded Trillium revenue in 2009 for the first time.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 20 2010, 9:54 PM 

CKC gets about 3.5 million annually from Sport Canada, their total budget is about 3.7 million.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 9:41 AM 

And CKC should get that money. If you knew anything about Sport Canada and their function/role in funding HP sport in Canada (and NOT JUST CKC) then you would not be putting down the money they disperse. I am once again not stunned at the lack of knowledge in so many posts on here.

Where would our sport system be if there was no funding? Unfortunately, unlike the USA, our athletes do not get the huge corporate sponsorships/endorsements. Be thankful that Sport Canada supports our athletes AND thats not just CKC. Bash CKC getting funding you bash the whole system and all sports.

Its posts like above that reek of misinformation,ignorance and jealousy.

Have a great week.


 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 11:14 AM 

@ Nov 22, 9:41am

Not sure what posts you are reading. From what I can see, people don't have any problems with CKC funding the HP sports program for Canoe and Kayak. They do have a problem with CKC wasting money on farce regattas like the ICF Club Crews in a thinly veiled attempt to assimilate dragon boat from a well established, reasonably well run and now mostly self-funded organization (DBC/IDBF). Whether this Sport Canada money is actually diverted from the HP sports program or not, the optics of it certainly aren't good.

And the post immediately above yours that you seem to have a problem with - not sure what part of it "reek of misinformation,ignorance and jealousy" as it is a simple statement of fact with no interjected opinion. Or do you dispute what is clearly posted on Sport Canada website that says Canadian Canoe Association (aka CKC) got $3,576,152 in 2009-2010?

It is posts like yours that reek of didn't bother reading but I am going to call people ignorant anyway that is truly misinformed, ignorant and jealous.

Have a good one.


 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 12:03 PM 

I agree with the above post. I haven't seen on this thread anyone saying the SPRINT athletes shouldn't be getting sprint funding - I think the issue is that the general consensus is that people want the sprint athletes to get more sprint funding - and have less money wasted on things like dragon boat and sham events for political gain, the stupidity of which calls into question what other money which should be going to the sprint athletes is being wasted by administration, bureaucracy and politics.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 12:09 PM 

does anyone else find it ironic that a bunch of people on the dragon boat forum see the stupidity in CKC not spending every dollar funding sprint athletes?

 
 
Anonymous

^^^

November 22 2010, 12:44 PM 

Full of win.



 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 4:22 PM 

The bottom line that I think we all agree on is that CKC needs to use it's money to fund CKC development and HP. I have not read anyone disagree on that. The problem we all see is CKC starting to fund and support the ICF worlds. As dragon boaters on a dragon boat forum we all know the ICF event is a sham. CKC can't pull a fast one on us, like they are trying to do to their members (canoe clubs).

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 6:54 PM 

As far as I know CKC is not funding the ICF Worlds.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 22 2010, 7:51 PM 

Please remember that CKC has 3 division, one of which is the sprint racing discipline. It wouldn't be inappropriate for CKC to have an interest in dragon boat, but I think the consensus on this forum is that the sprint racing discipline should stick to sprint racing.

Someday maybe DBC will become a division of CKC, like the marathon group did years ago.

 
 
gypsy

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 12:29 AM 

I can see why DBC and the IDBF have issues with the ICF/CKC, and maybe even some clubs that have already hitched their wagon, but really the 99.999% of people on here are paddlers and paddlers should be happy like pigs in poo.

Seriously, having more marketing, more money from Corporate Sponsors, more recognition can only be good for the paddler/team level. More races to go to, hopefully if there are multiple world level competitions they start to undercut each other and it's cheaper to go to the CCWC's or equivalent.

Perhaps it will give a kick in the pants to DBC to get a vision for dragon boating and even obtain some bigger corporate sponsorships (like Mazda) in Canada. Maybe the dragon boat paddler will finally find out what DBC is doing for us, and what we're paying our fees for.

 
 
Anonymous

Re "GYPSY"

November 23 2010, 7:23 AM 

I don't think it is particularly flattering to have teams going to phoney "worlds" from a phoney league, just so they can say they are "champs" (of NOTHING) when there is an established lineage. This is not good for the sport.

 
 
Anonymous

Re:

November 23 2010, 7:29 AM 

gypsy, did you just poo on me?

 
 
Anonymous

yuk

November 23 2010, 7:32 AM 

I got some me, ew!

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 10:09 AM 

I don't think its appropriate to even use the word "phoney" and slam those athletes who choose to participate in an ICF dragonboat event. People talk on here about the "superior attitude" that the sprint athletes have, yet I see so much of that in these threads on here coming from dragon boaters. I guess it may be fair to say its a two-way street?

If DBC is self-sufficient,what are the membership fees, and any other funds they receive, being used for? Where is funding for "National" team uniforms or even to pay for dinner ticket at Worlds? Is there funding for "National" team training camps or does everyone have to pay out of their own pocket? It seems that "National" teams consist of those individuals who can afford to pay their way. Funding would solve that problem and increase the talent pool.I could go on and on and on about the missing ingredients in the current DB system in Canada.

Go to the CKC website and learn what an NSO is all about.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 10:53 AM 

10:09 - all those things are funded in CKC with taxpayer dollars, membership fees, even in CKC are a small fraction of the revenue.

you are correct that DBC teams are self funding, again, that's the point. my guess is that many people on this forum complaining about the dragon boaters getting CKC funding are sprint athletes.

If the CKC athletes want to self fund to go to wherever, I don't think anyone cares - sprint or dragon boat.

 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 11:01 AM 

It's not "phoney" because of its quality (though there is definitely much to be desired). It's phoney because the ICF stepped in and created a competing "world championship" when one had already been established by the IDBF.

Don't draw a false equivalence between the "superior" attitudes of IDBF and ICF supporters. The ICF "superiority" comes from the belief that sprint athletes are better athletes. And there's definitely merit to that, considering the fact that sprint canoe is an individual sport. The attitude of IDBF supporters is not "superiority", but more like "Back off! Get your own sandwich!"

Lastly, an NSO that has the benefit of Olympic broadcasting revenues is definitely going to be able to spend more than one that doesn't. You've got to be deluded to think that DBC membership fees are enough to provide training camps for national team athletes.

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 11:30 AM 

IT'S NOT BROADCASTING REVENUES IT'S NOT MEMBERSHIP FEES, IT'S NOT SPONSORSHIPS, 90% OF CKC REVENUES ARE TAXPAYER DOLLARS!!




 
 
Anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 1:06 PM 

Once again an ignorant comment bashing the very essence of amateur sport funding/support in this country. Thank God for Sport Canada and other grants that support amateur athletes and their coaches.

Clubs make money off rentals of boats and hosting festivals. I think its once again very misinformed, and a wild guess, to say its CKC members bashing CKC's inclusion of DB.

Whats the average age of a dragonboater? 40?

 
 
anonymous

Re: CKC Presentation on Dragon Boat at AGM

November 23 2010, 2:22 PM 

1:06 PM, the poster above you was responding to the entry above them, implying Olympic Broadcast revenues are somehow funding CKC.

The $3.5 to $3.6 million dollar amount that Sport Canada gives to CKC is freely obtainable on the Sport Canada website.

Have you read the thread? I don't see anyone objecting to CKC obtaining Sport Canada funding, which is coming from the taxpayer.

People are questioning how administrators are spending it in light of CKC funding a sub standard team of dragon boat paddlers to a questionable event.

Some in this thread have implied that sprint canoers are among those questioning spending money on masters aged dragon boat paddlers instead of promising young sprint athletes.

Is this so far fetched?

1:06 PM, you sound defensive - are you a CKC administrator?

 
 
Anonymous

re Nov 23, 10:09 AM

November 23 2010, 7:49 PM 


 
 
Anonymous

Really?

November 24 2010, 6:17 PM 

Okay, I read the thread, was that really Blake ?

 
 
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