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Gravity Fed Filter With Liner
by
I plan to construct a new pool, that is part raised and use a butyl liner. I wish to use a gravity fed filter, is this possible with a liner ?
I have seen bottom drains for use with liners, but are there fittings to allow the feed to the filters through the liner ?
Any help would be appreciated, especially if you can point me in the direction of a shop or web site that sell these fittings.
Thanks,
John
Posted on May 31, 2006, 9:19 AM from IP address 217.206.115.134
As I guess you have discovered, large (4" +) "side or midwater-feeds" have long gone out of favour, and modern koi ponds are designed with the bottom drains accting as the feed for the filtration sytem. So, why not do that?
If you are considering building a koi pond without bottom drains I would strongly counsel against that.
gravity fed filters are perfectly feasible from a semi raised pond. The only constraint is that the top/s of the filter tank/s MUST be above the level of the pond. If below they would overflow when the pump is off.
Posted on Jun 3, 2006, 8:00 PM from IP address 84.65.150.151
Can any one help I started up my pond last September I added two small Koi to get the filter started the nitrite was at 0.05 at first then after reseeding the filter it dropped to 0 at the time I was only feeding weatgerm as it was late in the season I stopped feeding mid November when the Temp dropped below 6c the koi over wintered OK I reseeded the filter again in March and have added four more bigger Koi one month after adding the new Koi they all started to flick and flash off the walls of the pond so I added a general all purpose parasite treatment dosed the pond for five days waited ten days and the water was testing OK the fish were still flicking so as suggested on the packaging I repeated the treatment for a further five days the last day of treatment was Friday so I cant add any further treatments until after the ten days are up but when I tested the water yesterday the nitrite had shot up to between 0.5 and 1 so I assume the pond treatment has knocked the filter back I have stopped feeding. Then I cleaned out the vortex and brush camber of the filter as I have done on a monthly basis since the pond was filled when I was cleaning the brushes in a bucket full of pond water I noticed that there were little red worms that to me looked like blood worm any one else had them ? I blasted them off the brushes with the power hose as they would be using up oxygen vital for the bacteria in the filter is there any thing else I can do to speed up the recovery of the nitrite levels ? Regards Jim
Posted on May 26, 2006, 10:20 AM from IP address 195.93.21.70
What size & type of filter do you have?
How big (Gallons) is your pond?
Do you have an ammonia reading?
Are your koi flashing & jumping all the time
The treatment you are using will knock the bacteria back, adding a bacteria top up should help but is there still some residue of the treatment in the water?
The bloodworm are a good sign that something is working well in the filter & should be left alone. When cleaning your filter it is better to do one section & leave for a few days before doing the next section. have you got any drain valves at the bottom of your filter so you can purge to waste, if yes this should be all you need to do during this time of year.
Tony
West Midlands
Posted on May 26, 2006, 8:31 PM from IP address 82.47.37.236
Hi Tony my pond is 2300 gallons my filter is a 100 gallon vortex and four bay filter consisting of a brush chamber ,Japanese matting ,and sponge and the final flo co. The ammonia reading is normal the koi have all but ceased flashing since adding the treatment just the odd occasional half hearted attempt the residue from the treatment should be all clear by Monday. Will reseed the pond on Monday I use a pond vac to clean the vortex and brush chamber and the drain valves for the remaning chambers will leave the blood worms alone in future thanks for your help regards Jim
Posted on May 26, 2006, 9:45 PM from IP address 195.93.21.70
It's not a good idea to 'blast' anything in your filters with power washer ... you'll remove all the good bacteria that convert the harmful ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. You should wash with the pond water itself. Blood worms are fine and the koi love them!
The fish are/have been flashing due to the ammonia and nitrite (you will have or have had ammonia, which converts into nitrite). Both these are extemely harmful and damage the gills and, if not dealt with quickly enough, will kill your fish. Adding parasite treatments will do even more harm, at the moment, as they remove precious oxygen from the pond.
Check your levels, including pH (as a high pH will make the toxins even more toxic) and, if you still have ammonia and nitrite readings, start making partial water changes. Also, do not feed until the ammonia and nitrite is 0. You could try adding some good bacteria to your pond, to help the process along, such as Interpet Bio-Start.
Hope things settle down soon.
Posted on May 30, 2006, 9:42 PM from IP address 195.93.21.70
Hi Sue
Thanks for the advice the ammonia and nitrite levels were OK until I added the second part of the treatment then the nitrite started to rise I managed to get it back down to 0 then as soon as I started to feed again it went back up to 0.05 pH and ammonia are OK so I have added good bacteria to get the filter back up to scratch I will most certainly think twice before adding any more treatments I have been monitoring the ammonia and nitrite levels on a daily basis since the problems first started this morning the ammonia was again 0 and the nitrite is just about back to 0 will keep a close eye on it the fish are still having half hearted attempts at flashing so this could be due to the remaining nitrite ? Regards JIM
Posted on Jun 1, 2006, 9:34 AM from IP address 195.93.21.70
Flashing can be caused by all manner of things including temperature fluctuations, o2 level changes due to algae respiration, hardness of the water as well as Nitrite, Ammonia and of course parrasites. The trick is knowing how to recognise the difference between signs of irritation or natural reaction to change and this will come with experience.
In your case, Nitrite is a problem probably due to a combination of over eager filter cleaning coupled with chemical treatments and this will cause some flashing. I have just installed a Nexus Eazy on my pond and Nitrite has gone up to 0.25ppm which is causing some flashing as I expected. It's a pain for sure becuase Nitrite irritates so the fish react accordingly.
Now that you have things reasonably stable and Nitrite is at zero, feed sparingly for the next week and keep a close eye on your readings. If Nitrite shows up, stop feeding until it drops back again. You need to slowly re-establish the bacteria colonies and this will take time.
Alan.
Posted on Jun 1, 2006, 6:01 PM from IP address 213.120.101.21
I came home from holiday to find my pond liner floating and most of my fish gone. I have temporarily re-housed my fish while I sort out the problem. The pond has concrete block walls and a butyl liner. I have cut the liner and pumped under it but the water level is still rising. It is clay under the pool. I tried digging down to see if I could ge through the clay but am down three feet and still clay . I am inclined to render the pool but do I have to wait and hope that the weather dries up and the water stops rising before I can? Will this solve the problem or could it re-occur - and how could I stop it?
Thanks in advance.
Tim
Posted on May 29, 2006, 10:38 PM from IP address 81.132.37.47
Rendering sounds like a good idea (and then fibre glass ?). If you don't already have a bottom drain this could be a good opportunity to install one/ some.
We had this groundwater problem when we dug out our last pond. It is unlikely that you will permanently solve this problem, as this is likely to be the level of your local water-table (assuming it's not a major nearby water main or drain leak ?...unlikely I guess).
Did you have this probelm when you first excavated the pond ?
So, this is what you can do to keep the site dry until you can complete the construction and refill the pond, which will equalise the pressure and keep the groundwater at bay :-
Try digging a deep sump, close to the pond, a good foot or two lower than the base of your pond and place an automatic cellar type submersible pump (ideally a solids handling pump)at the bottom of the sump. The ground water can be automatically pumped to waste.
This will slowly lower the level of the ground water and dry up the site. Leave the sump pump in operation until you have finished construction and refilled the pond.
If it were me, I'd fibreglass the pond after rendering.
Lets hope the weather stays dry too as this will help !
Good luck. Mark
Posted on May 31, 2006, 4:20 PM from IP address 86.128.32.131
thanks very much for the advice - it makes emminent sense. We've had the pond for five years with no problem until now. As we were away when it happened I don't know whether the pond level had dropped first or what, but we recently have had more rain than I can remember in that period.
When you say it may be worth installing a ground drain at the same time as rendering etc. - do you mean simply a drain underneath the pond going to the mains drain?
Thanks again.
Tim
Posted on May 31, 2006, 10:13 PM from IP address 217.118.122.240
Re the "ground drain" you refer to. I was in fact referring to a "bottom drain"(s)for the pond (sorry that wasn't clear). I thought that if your pond didn't already have a bottom drain, it would be a great opportunity to install one and therby upgrading your system. You won't regret it.
If you are not familiar with bottom drains for ponds (?) you can find out more on the Pond Construction pages of Koi Cymru. http://www.koicymru.co.uk/constructb3.htm
Let us know how you get on. Photos help too.
Cheers, Mark
Posted on Jun 1, 2006, 11:05 AM from IP address 217.43.18.49
Is/was your pond above ground level or below ground level? If the latter then sorry but I DONT think a sump and pump is a safe permanent solution, the only truely safe solution is to have the pond level above the highest possible water table and that may mean semi raised. The result of that is, the pressure inside the liner acting outwards is always greater than the pressure of the ground water acting inwards at the same level and thus the liner is always pushed outwards. I say a sump and pump is not a permanent solution because if the pump fails or there is a power cut then you are at the mercy of the water table.
In my pond the average water table is 2ft or so above the floor of my pond and in winter water can pool on the surface of the ground, my pond is semi raised topping out about 18" above the old ground level and the liner is never in danger of ballooning.
If your pond tops out above the surrounding ground level then sorry the only explanation I know of is you have a leak, that does two things simultaneously.
1) lowers the level of the pond
2) raises the water table in the immediate vicinity of the liner making balloning more likely.
Note ballooning can ONLY occur when the 'water table' is higher than the water level in the pond, the difference in level will be minute and the liner crushes thereby raising the level inside the pond. Once the levels are equal the ballooning stops 'growing'.
All that said, a sump and pump ARE useful for those occasions when you want to lower the pond and maybe to below the water table, I have a sump under my pond but have a suction line running from it rather than a pump. I have actually only used it twice, once when fitting the liner and the other occasion shortly after that when I wanted to shift the liner.
Posted on Jun 3, 2006, 7:29 PM from IP address 84.65.150.151
Hi the advice to fitting the bottom drain was to push fit it together unfortunately this does not seem to work as it has come loose twice requiring me to enter the pond and refit...........should I stick it down and if I do what are the risks of the drain getting blocked.........is there a semi permanent bonding that will hold it in place but with force can be removed??Help please.........
Posted on Jun 2, 2006, 8:26 AM from IP address 81.157.51.17
I assume that the problem you have is the dome coming loose.
This should be a tight push fit into the bottom drain, and if yours is loose then it might be faulty. Did it seem to be a reasonably tight fit when you first installed it?
If it was a good push fit then it could be that you have air trapped under the dome and this is lifting it up.
Check out http://www.koicymru.co.uk/constructb3.htm where you will see the following paragraph:
"When the pond is completed then you can fit the mushroom cover as shown fig. 2. This is the type now supplied by many dealers. The gap between this cover and the top flange is set at about ½ inch and so gives a good purging effect when the stand pipe is pulled. It is advisable to fit the dome when there is say one foot of water in the pond to ensure that no air is trapped underneath, otherwise the dome may be forced up when the pond is full and very difficilt to replace. Many koi-keepers drill two 7mm holes in the top of the cover so that air cannot be trapped underneath."
Suggest you go back to your supplier or the manufacturer and discuss it with them if you still have problems.
Posted on Jun 3, 2006, 8:03 AM from IP address 86.128.2.60
I'm making some partitions in a sump and am using uPVC from a double glazing merchant. Its the stuff used to clad soffits/facias. Anyone know of any problems that it may cause or will it be OK?
Posted on May 22, 2006, 8:24 PM from IP address 81.153.232.34
I found one of my fish had died in the night.
It was one of my first few fish that I used to help mature the filter.
The water is now good and there are six fish in the pond.
I had not seen the fish for a few days, until it popped up to the surface this morning.
I got it out and noticed large waxy type growths, especially round its tail.
My main concern now is for the other fish.
Can anyone tell me what my problem is and do I need to do any treatment?
Cheers...Steve
Posted on May 30, 2006, 8:55 AM from IP address 81.137.221.82
looks to me that its a fungal infection probably as a result of parasites, you can see missing scales showing that the fish must have been "flashing".
you need to check your other fish
john
Posted on May 30, 2006, 1:50 PM from IP address 194.83.245.20
When my fish have had parasites they go sulky, lurk at the bottom rest on shelves, jump, flash (rub there sides on the bottom of the pond)may even sit near the water inlets to get more oxygen.
You just need to keep an eye on them for anything out of the ordinary.
what looks like a fungal infection can be a secondary problem to parasites, it may also be adviseable to check your water quality to using a test kit or take a sample of water to a garden centre and they will do this for you. Again bad water can be the stress trigger that causes an infection
john
Posted on May 31, 2006, 9:43 AM from IP address 194.83.245.20
At the moment the rest of the fish are very active.
Feeding really well and water parameters are spot on.
I think I will keep an eye on them and just see what happens.
Cheers...Steve
Posted on May 31, 2006, 12:54 PM from IP address 81.137.221.82
hi, can anyone tell me if the aftermarket nexus backwash kit is any good ? my water isn,nt dirty ,its just not as clear as id like, i was told to put 1 on the exit on my 300 nexus to polish the water, do they work? cheers, danny.
Posted on May 25, 2006, 10:20 PM from IP address 82.2.90.82
can anyone tell me why one of my koi spends most of his time at the bottom of the pond the rest of the fish are up moving about but this larger older fish stays on the bottom most of the time.
Posted on May 20, 2006, 6:52 PM from IP address 86.143.52.87
If it`s any consolation may fish are behaving the same. Two weeks ago in the warm weather they were rampant and now it`s as if they are all asleep most of the time . I put it down to the change of weather now it`s colder.
Posted on May 24, 2006, 8:23 PM from IP address 88.110.26.68
you could be right about the weather its not the best for the end of may, most of the fish are up and about including the big old koi but he just dont seem to eat, hope the warm weather will kick start him (when we get warm weather lol)
Posted on May 25, 2006, 5:36 PM from IP address 86.132.143.241
We are starting to put up our block walls on the footing and I was reading here not to back fill using clay/soil that was in the ground before the dig..Is this true and if so what should we use to fill in behind the block..Also we are from the USA so so some of the products you have we don't and some are called different things but are the same..LOL
Marie
Posted on May 23, 2006, 4:27 AM from IP address 24.160.234.102
The aim is to compact down the back fill so there are no air pockets, and the material is solid behind the block wall. In the UK a lot of the soill is heavy clay so it is not really suitable.
Any stone chippings, gravel, or even light soil will be OK, and make sure it is well compacted down as you go.
Posted on May 23, 2006, 6:18 AM from IP address 86.128.2.60
Hi,
Just come across this web site its great by the way,want to make my pond have a contemporary feel to it any advice to which metal would be safe to use as an alternative coping.jan
Posted on May 21, 2006, 10:35 AM from IP address 195.93.21.70
I have seen on this and several other sites that people are weary of using copper anywhere near their pond, and that in pond heating systems using domestic boilers lots of people prefer to use a stainless steel heat exchanger in case of a leak.
I don't actually understand this reasoning as the rest of the heating circuit contains copper pipework and possibly an aluminium or cast iron heat exchanger within the boiler itself.
This defeats the point in having a stainless heat exchanger with the pond water as if there were a leak in the heating system the heating system water that mixed with the pond water would have come into contact with the other metals in the circuit.
Copper is not a metal that will cause any harm to anything coming into cantact with it, it is an element and it is inert and it also makes up most if not all of the pipework within your home.
Unless you filled your pond with rainwater the chances are the water in your pond came through a copper pipe.
Cast iron is another matter, it is a ferrous metal and will rust and oxidise in contact with water, the heating circuit water will in time become deoxidised and turn black, if this leaks into your pond then no amount of stainless steel wil help the fish.
Just thought i'd stand up for copper. No offense meant to anyone else.
Posted on May 19, 2006, 4:51 PM from IP address 84.51.164.201
Copper is considered to be partly therapeutic to fish as it can kill parasites (so I read). However too much copper can cause toxicity which can kill the fish.(just ask anyone with a salt water marine aquarium).
I expect that many fish (even koi) can deal with many additions to their environment, as long as the build up is relatively slow to allow them to adjust to it. While many keepers will be clinical about the drinking water their fish live in, there will be others who let the ponds look after them selves and only worry if the water level drops.
I admit I am closer to the latter. I am dealing with blanket weed (a few scoops of pond clear stuff every fortnight), and take out 5% of the water from time to time (just by draining the filter box out and letting the sediment wash out). I have not seen any problems with my fish so far. They survived the winter without additional heating, seem quite hardy and are growing well.
With regard to copper pipes, I expect that a small amount of copper pipes coupled to a big pond should cause few problems. Copper will very easily affect the water taste and make up. Just rub a 2p piece in your hand then lick your fingers....yuck.
But stainless steel is not too expensive and is far more inert. (You certainly don't see anything other than stainless steel in factories which are bottling mineral water.) SO if you can, I would say use as much stainless steel and plastic as possible.
Posted on May 20, 2006, 2:51 PM from IP address 88.109.72.53
It depends on the head, but anything from .25 to 1 litre per second. Check this website out for domestic circulators.
Warning... if you are using a domestic cirulator for a pond it should really be one with a phosporus bronze impeller.
It depends on the head, but anything from .25 to 1 litre per second. Check this website out for domestic circulators.
Warning... if you are using a domestic circulator for a pond it should really be one with a phosporus bronze impeller.
hi
ive read on this site to turn the pond volume over once every 2 hours, is this the same using a bead filter as i have been told to turn it over every hour. thanks for any advice
Posted on May 19, 2006, 5:51 PM from IP address 82.12.177.177
Having look at Andy DIY homemade trickle tower system at http://koicymru.co.uk/ponduk04.htm
I am think of building one myself. There are 2 points that I am not so sure as folllow:
1. I do not have bottom drain, obvious dirby & dirt with suck into the TT via the pump. and probably drop into the bottom of the butt eventually. How do you clear this so called "rubbish". from your picture, it is not 100% clear.
2. What type of piping connection do Andy use at the bottom, can someone give me some clue, i.e. type & size etc. Is this standard pipework fixing?
Andy, if you see this messag, can you answer this, or anyone who may have info of.
Thank you.
Posted on May 14, 2006, 11:51 PM from IP address 83.151.193.202
Below is sketch of pipework to/from my TT.
My TT returns to the bio stage of my filters at the moment which means I am using 2 pumps.
I have plans to move this TT closer to the pond so it will run from the main pump through the TT and back into the pond but this will mean removal of my fluid bed filter and more pipework (I think I must be addicted to the glue).
Any further help just give me a shout.
Posted on May 15, 2006, 1:30 PM from IP address 213.120.71.165
Hi Andy,
Thank you for your reply.
A few further queries as follow:
1. Where do I get the 1.5" tank connector, koi shop or a pumper shop?
2. You put the 0.5" in-let pipe inside the 1.5" outflow. It looks better, but would it reduce the outflow a great deal, as the water is pump feed, and the out flow is via gravity. Would it cause overflow in the butt?
3. I have a multi-chamber system which is pump feed at present. The brushes & Jap. Mat. get block very easily, which I have to clean them once every 3 days. More importantly, I have string algae which is out of control at present. I learn from Alan F that TT would reduce it, may be remove it completely. The question is, would I return the TT water to the multi-Chambers via the UV, or back to the pond directly.
4. I still not clear how the rubbish (the same stuff that I need to clear out of the multi-chambers, food waste, algue etc.) is clear out from your butt. Should there another pipe somewhere? Otherwise, where have they gone, can't disappear just like that.
5. My main objective is to remove string algae, and have a clearer pond. Am I barking at the wrong tree?
Thank you.
Posted on May 16, 2006, 5:01 PM from IP address 83.151.193.202
Hi, The TT wont phsically remove the blanket weed, but the action of water falling over the media inside the tower will reduce nitrates which the blanket weed needs to grow. This inturn will reduce blanket weed. To make sure no muck builds up in the trickle tower place your pump in a clean chamber of your filter. It will have to return straight to the pond as it will be gravity fed after its been through the TT so wont be able to pass through the UV. Hope this helps
Posted on May 16, 2006, 10:03 PM from IP address 82.38.197.142
Giggleswick,
In answer to your questions;
1. You can get tank connectors from either, I tend to use Pipeline center or BSS (look in yellow pages under pipework supplies) as they have a larger range than most koi outlets. They are usually very helpful but it may be and idea to do a sketch to show them what you are trying to achieve.
2. I have had no problems with flow and am using (temporarily) a 15-60 grundfoss circulator at full speed.
3. I don't have any problems with debris in my TT as I have a K1 static chamber in the vortex (see links to projects page on this site) which removes all but a small amount in my bio chamber which is sloughed off biomass, this I flush out every couple of days by opening the 2" waste valve for about 2 seconds.
4. I have unions on the pipework so I can disconnect the TT. I can then upturn the TT and see what waste has accumulated but to be honest there was only a samll amount at the end of last year so I'm none too worried about this.
5. No you are at exactly the right tree. Have a look at the posts on 68 on the forum (page 4) you will see my post on there along with Alans. This technology is used all over the world by the water companies so that they can release safe water into the rivers.
I would go for a bigger water but if possible as I only used a small one for space reasons and just to see if it did make any difference. So far I think I must have saved £100 on chemical treatments in one season, if I every meet Alan I will definitley buy him a drink!!
Give it a go and you won't look back
Posted on May 17, 2006, 10:57 AM from IP address 213.120.71.165
Hi Andy,
Thanks you for your advice, I'll have a go. But using a 50 Gal butt because space problem. I will post the result to you near the end of the season.
Thanks again!
Posted on May 18, 2006, 9:14 AM from IP address 83.151.193.202
i got a koi hes about 20 years old and was given to me last autumn, i have other koi in the pond these fish eat the koi sticks but the old fish never seems to eat...but he looks well, should i get some other kind of food if so wot...
Posted on May 16, 2006, 5:35 PM from IP address 86.136.248.99
I've always thrown in the odd worm which I find when gardening. No bad affects observed, In fact, the koi go after them like mad. I have never tried maggots though.
Posted on May 12, 2006, 7:18 PM from IP address 86.144.220.139
Maggots I have never tried, caterpillars don't go down well with my koi, worms need to be chopped up but leather jackets (larvae of the crane fly or "daddy longlegs") are a delicacy if you can find them in the lawn.
I have six large composters and when the compost in them is 3-6 months old, rose beetle larvae start appearing in them. When sieving through the compost for use on the garden I save about 50% of the larvae in a special small composter and feed them gradually to my koi. They go into an absolute feeding frenzy!
Rose beetles are harmless, largish metallic green and the larvae do wonders in converting raw compost into a fine earthlike mix, so I try not to reduce the numbers too much. They remain in the larval stage for up to 3 years, growing larger all the time until they pupate and then turn into beautiful insects.
As a special treat, my koi get freshly-boiled potatoes, roughly mashed with a couple of crushed cloves of garlic - Sundays only and then only if they've behaved themselves through the week
Posted on May 16, 2006, 3:14 PM from IP address 84.151.68.39
Thanks for the reply.I spoke to TMC who make Hidro clean He assured me there is not a pond pup out that would pump to much water per hour through the filter,for those who wish to know he gave a figure of 14000galls per hour max
Posted on May 16, 2006, 11:30 AM from IP address 62.253.128.14
hi, my fish are feeding steadily now the weathers warming up but they seem more interested in the thin film of green algae on my pond liner, is this normal? i am checking my parameters weekly,they are fine but is weekly about right or should i be checking more often? thanks for any advice.danny.
Posted on May 12, 2006, 6:21 AM from IP address 62.252.0.9
Weekly checks are fine for a pond and filters that working properly. Daily checks are worth doing if you detect a bit of ammonia or Nitrite or in a new pond where parameters fluctuate.
Grazing on weed on the pond sides is quite normal and nothing to worry about.
Alan F.
Posted on May 14, 2006, 1:58 PM from IP address 213.120.101.21
