A hypothetical question:
You have decided on a watch - a serious watch - and have two potential sources, each with an essentially identical watch meeting your specs, and each a reputable source. One has box and papers, the other does not. Without box and papers, there's a small savings. What do you do? How important are box and papers if you trust the source and plan to keep the watch?
Peter
1. When you say one watch comes with "papers," if that means there's a valid warranty it makes a big difference in my experience. Unfortunately, mechanical watches break down far more often than they should, for something so expensive and allegedly fine-tuned. Repairs on high-end pieces are often very costly, so having a valid warranty can ultimately be a big money saver.
2. What you said about trusting the source is also key. Assuming for a moment that the watch isn't a fake, it's still odd to me when I see expensive pieces sans box or papers. If I spend this much money on something (especially if it might someday be resold), then I'm going to hold on to these things. So why did your seller not receive them himself? He probably wasn't the original owner himself and really has no way to know what happened earlier. Was the watch originally stolen, or just gray market? Perhaps a former owner sold the box and papers, but isn't that kind of person more likely to have also not treated the watch well?? (Not always, of course, but it might make it more likely that he didn't value the watch that much.) To me it's a potential warning sign, so I'd be careful.
Having said that, if the price difference were big enough, I might buy the no-papers watch anyway!!
Good thoughts. Thanks. FYI, the seller with papers is a private party, the other is a dealer and his source didn't have the papers. The price difference isn't big enough for me. I'm less concerned about warranty and more about having a complete package, whether for resale or just my own sense of orderliness. So I'm going to pay a few bucks extra and go for the watch with papers.
Appreciate your input.
Peter
The box and papers are valuable even if the warranty has expired!
May 16 2002, 5:20 PM
I have a fine piece of Japanese pottery,
which came, as such pottery does come,
in a cheap wood box.
The actual value of the box is nominal.
An expert explained to me that the
value of the piece of pottery would be
reduced by half without the [cheap] box.
My guess is that if you ever wish to sell
your watch, the box and papers will
significantly raise the price you can
get for the watch. I'd even save the
sales receipt. Stick 'em in a safe
place, and, 40 years from now, you or someone
else will not be "p-ssed" that you didn't
do it, since it takes almost no effort.
200 years from now they will probably increase
the value of the watch even more.
Don't be like Arthur Andersen! Good audit
trails are highways to connoisseurs'
heaven.
Your reference to Japanese pottery rings a bell. I have been going to Japan every year for about 10 years and each time I go, I buy a tea bowl. They always come in a wooden box. Even though I have the bowls on display, the boxes are tucked away in a cupboard for safe keeping. Likewise, the watch I'm buying - a GO Senator Perpetual. I've decided to go with the box and papers.
Thanks.
Gray market dealers will give you open undated papers. If they're not signed by an authorized dealer, what good do these papers offer? It's the same as no papers, no?
Technically, in the majority of cases, any specific watch purchased from an other than authorized dealer or source is not covered by a warranty, whether the warranty papers are stamped or dated or not.
Among the many other justifications, there is the concern that provenance and "proper handling" have not been given to a particular piece.
Too many people forget that watches, on the one hand, are very delicate and vulnerable - many, for example, can be damaged when the quick change date or perpual calendar settings are adjusted during certain periods of the day.
Yet, on the other, they are very robust when it comes to basic timekeeping, which lulls most into a false sense of security.
It is assumed, though not necessarily correctly, that an authorized dealer and his / her employees will know the proper handling of a watch, AND are bound by the covenants and restrictions of their dealer agreement. Thus, there is at least an intentional "good faith" and contractual safety net of dealing with and through an authorized dealer.
Of course, the real world is much more complicated.
However, I don't think, in the context of this thread, that warranty is the issue in the discussion of the box and papers. And frankly, neither is the issue of authenticity. Think about it - if someone can fake the whole watch, how hard is it to either fake the papers or buy them on the open market? If a buyer cannot tell if a watch is authentic, what makes one think the same buyer can tell if the box or papers are authentic?
I think Peter and Brad's points are regarding an aspect of the collector's (or even the casual hobbyists) psyche for condition and "completeness"
There are some, myself included, for whom a complete collectible is worth something more than an incomplete one. This may or may not translate to a higher dollar value, but certain, for this group, it translates to a desireability value.
"It is assumed, though not necessarily correctly..."
May 17 2002, 10:32 AM
"It is assumed, though not necessarily correctly, that an
authorized dealer and his / her employees will know the
proper handling of a watch"
I have a personal case where this was definitely
not true. The watch was a Patek Philippe,
and the dealer was one of Patek's most
valued and respected.
I will gladly (not really "gladly", since I
feel very sad and disappointed that
such a thing could have happened!)
provide the dealer's name
on request. I appreciate that it would
be poor taste to state it publicly here.
However! I cannot understand why
the shoddy treatment my
watch received is not to be found in said
dealer's advertisements, nor
why they do not they feature
a reproduction of it as one walks into their
store, although I think they should, since,
being highly reputable -- and they are! --,
they were clearly proud of the example
of how to handle a fine watch,
which they taught me, for why else would they
have done it?
And, as Paul Harvey would say, "Now for the rest of
the story": What I finally learned from
this experience is that if ever a similar
thing happens to me again, I will immediately
return the item, rather than assuming upon
myself the burden of trying to correct it
through the manufacturer's warranty process.
You, my reader, may appreciate that this
experience showed me clearly how poor my
self-image was (still is?) to have
"swallowed" such a disappointment and
indignity. So, in the end, one might say,
I got what I deserved. Hopefully I have
learned to deserve better in future....
