I've been re-reading some of the books, and a thought occured to me when I was reading CoS. In one of Harry's encounters with Dobby, he gets upset about how badly Dobby is treated by his wizard owners. Harry vows to help Dobby, and as we know, then tricks Lucius into setting Dobby free at the end. What I was wondering is if Harry was so eager to help Dobby, why doesn't he want to help Hermione with S.P.E.W.? Is he just going along with Ron, cause it doesn't seem cool? Have more to worry about?
Also, do you think SPEW will ever get off the ground? I think maybe Hermione will use her relationship with Luna to put something in her father's paper about it.

"So basically, you're going to take the best looking girl who'll have you , even if she's completely horrible?"
"Er-yeah, that sounds about right," said Ron.

I think that he wanted to help them until he learned Dobby is just irregular. He probably thought none of them wanted to be kept as servents, but since they do actually want it, he probably doesn't mind since it is what they want and know.

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I agree. The house elves have made it obvious that they do not want to be free. They like what they do. Harry, unlike Hermione, is not going to say, "Too bad, I think you should be free and I'm going to do whatever I can to free you whether you like it or not." Harry obviously knew that Dobby wanted to be freed, that is why he tricked Lucius into freeing Dobby. The other house elves, including Winky, do not want to be free.

"If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair like your pretty boy over there Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?" -- Joanna

I think he was just saying that so all of the world could love him...

I was about to ask the question "When is book 5 coming out?" But i saw someone else ask and get shouted at for it. I joined in shouting of course! - Kitch

Lilmiss and TonksLUVER: Dynamic Duo!

I agree, SPEW did not come about until after Harry met Winky and discovered that she ws the rule not the exception. This changes his views of things a lot. As for SPEW, I think its dew in for a name change pretty fast. Hermione has now been exposed to another group of discriminated magical creatures, and these hate it. In fact, i think that this is going to be her career, storming the wizarding world fighting for equality among the races (ok that sounds kinda gay the way i put it but u know what i mean). I think she is going to be focused on Centuars and even Werewolves (if Luna turns out to be one, that could get interesting. . . see another post about that)


The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits

Remember when arguing with a bear, he's always right
SoP

I don't think Harry is a crucader. I think he deals with problems that get in front of him, but he isn't going out looking to save the world (although that is what he is meant to do).

He knew Dobby was unhappy, and an opportunity presented itself, so Harry acted.

Yep. I think Harry looks at everything as the the situation demands. I think if he ever met another House-Elf that wanted freedom, he'd help him or her. However, the vast majority of House-Elves he's met do NOT want to be free...so he isn't about to join a cause that hurts them because it goes against their personal wants.

"I never gave anyone Hell. I just told them the truth, and they thought it was Hell."
-Harry Truman

Here's another question...since house elves in general do NOT want to be freed, do you think Hermione is wrong to try to start an effort to get them freed, or paid? Personally, I think if there ARE any more house elves like Dobby out there, who don't like how they are treated, then her effort is worth it to help those....but as for the majority of house elves, she needs to be careful. It will take a lot of time for the other house elves to change their minds about their position, if it is in fact at all possible.

Well, think about it this way. Before the Civil War, there were slaves who did not mind their positions. Of course, the ones who came straight from Africa didn't like it because they had known a life without slavery. However, after a couple of generations, the slaves didn't know anything other than the lives they led in slavery. In fact, they were kept from knowing by being forbidden to go to school or to be taught to read. Frederick Douglas was one of the first slaves who learned to read, and he did this without his master knowing because learning to read was punishable by death for a slave. After he learned to read, he began to secretly teach other slaves. When they came out of their old way of thinking and realized that they were just as good as their masters, that was when they didn't like being slaves anymore.

However, just like after Dobby was freed and no one wanted to pay a house elf, no one wanted to hire freed/escaped slaves when they either had or could get ones that they didn't have to pay and had to listen to them no matter what or pay the price.

So, I think that if Dobby somehow ends up convincing the other house elves that it is wrong for them to be "owned" by their masters, there could be some righteous progress with SPEW. However, Hermione shouldn't just be trying to free the house elves without their consent. By doing that, she is violating their rights just as much as their masters do.

"If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair like your pretty boy over there Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?" -- Joanna

Until I read Amanda's post, I was of the mind that Hermoine should stop S.P.E.W., and Harry is right in staying out of it. After all, it appears that the house-elves like their position, and charish their servitude. I had all the same arguments similar to Amanda's. However, after having read all of my arguments as they apply to American slavery, my position has changed dramatically. First of all, Amanda, your arguments mirror those of the Southern businessmen and Southern politicians who fought very strongly to keep Blacks as slaves. They argued that it would be ridiculous to free the slaves, because most of them liked being slaves, and those who did not, would not know what to do with themselves if they were freed. Blacks needed to be told what to do everyday. They liked being handed a structured life. They had three square meals a day, a place to rest, good work, etc. But, Black folk didn't like being enslaved. They did not want to be owned by another human being. Frederick Douglas did not make them realize that they shouldn't be enslaved. They already knew that. Douglas made enslaved Blacks realize that they could overcome their fear of being freed. Because, it wasn't that they wanted to be slaves, but rather they were too afraid to be anything else. However, since Rowling is British, she is probably drawing parellels between British Imperialism, not American slavery. So, how Americans may view house-elves is probably very different than our British counterparts. But, I for one hope that Hermoine is able to get some form of S.P.E.W. off the ground, and both Ron and Harry wake-up and realize that the war that is waging in the Wizarding World, partly centers around the equality of all wizarding creatures. And that banning together only strengthens their world.



Epstein: "I refuse to testify on the grounds it might incinerate me."

May I say first that I resent being compared to Southern politicians and businessmen of the pre-Civil War period. Having said that, I will continue.

I also think that Hermione should keep on with her efforts for S.P.E.W. However, before she runs around trying to free all of the house elves, she needs to consider what they are going to do once they are freed and how she can help them. First off, none of them have any money so buying things such as clothes, places to live, food, etc. would be impossible for them right away after being freed. Secondly, other people will have to change their opinions about house elves in order for them to get decent jobs.

Because I know more about American slavery (considering I took several classes on it in college) than I do about British Imperialism, I am going to keep referring to that. The end of the Civil War in 1866 ended slavery in the U.S. However, it wasn't until 100 years later that black Americans were, strictly speaking, allowed to vote. And it is just now that black Americans are working at more prestigious jobs.

So, my point to this all is that Hermione needs to do something besides just freeing the house elves. Yeah, freeing them is great, but releasing them into a world that is not ready for them and that they are not ready for is cruel.

"If you want me to wear 37 pieces of flair like your pretty boy over there Brian, why don't you just make the minimum 37 pieces of flair?" -- Joanna

dobby was weird and he wanted freedom the other house elves liked their lives the way it is.

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An odd feeling rose in Harry -- an emotion quite differnt from the anger and greif that had filled him since Sirius's death. It was a few moments before he realised that he was feeling sorry for Luna.
"How come people hide your stuff?" he asked her, frowning.
"Oh...well..." She shrugged. "I think they think I'm a bit odd, you know. Some people call me 'Loony' Lovegood actually."
Harry looked at her and the new feeling of pity intensified rather painfully.
"That's no reason for them to take your things," he said flatly. "D'you want help finding them?"
-Order of the Pheonix-