I posted this at the bottom of another post, but thought that it wasa tangeant and no one really read it because the thread was pretty dead at that point. I felt it deserved its own discussion. About a month ago, i think, we discussed how in PS/SS Ddore seemed to have set Harry, Ron, and Hermione up to encounter Voldy. I've always been bugged by the fact that the tasks were so easy and that D seemed to practically plan a HP/Voldy show down. But the most substantial evidence that I saw was the fact that we now know that Ddore is a Legillimus (sp?) and therefore knew Quirrel was hiding something and not telling the truth from the start. So WHY! WHY DID Ddore allow such a potentially lethal situation occur. Why did Ddore allow the most powerful dark wizard in the last century into Hogwarts? Was D there the entire time invisible during the encounter? Was he trying to create the final show down between Harry and V in Harry's first year? Was he trying to fulfill the prophecy? Or is there, per chance, another motive??
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
"Remember the enemy's gate is down"- Ender's Game
SoP
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
are you perfectly sure he's a Legilimens? I know the evidence points in that direction, but I cant honestly believe DD intentionally endangered Harry's (and every other student's) life: we know the fight with Quirrel could have been lethal to harry.
So I dont know why he let Quirrel come back if he knew he was hiding something very dangerous...
D.B.N.G.T.M.
Sirius i luv you
Bellatrix DEAD!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"They run off eckeltricity, do they?" said
Mr. Weasley knowledgeably. "Ah yes, I can
see the plugs. I collect plugs," he added to
Uncle Vernon."And batteries. Got a very
large collection of batteries. My wife
thinks I'm mad, but there you are."
-GoF-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quotes:
"It is our choices that make us who we are. Not our abilities."- Albus Dumbledore
"There is no excuse for looking down on someone, unless you're helping them up."- Rev. Jesse Jackson
“Whatever you are looking for is in you (the rest is still in the fridge)” Comix
"Just remember: If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off." Jewels of Wisdom
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Personally, I reckon Dumbledore's evil and his own plans. For in the 4th book, he is said to have a triumphant look, when Harry tells him that Voldy can now touch him. And it infuriates me how he can be so perfect. Also, if he wasn't up to something, then why else would he have let Voldy go in the 5th book, to let him kill more people? No, there's something peculiar about Dumbledore.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I never looked at it from the "dumbledore is a bad dude" side. But i can't see him as a bad dude.
Notice how Dumbledore apoligizes for not telling Harry in book 5...he is admitting he isn't perfect.
I think turnign dumbly evil now, would be stupid. There havn't really been hints of wickedness all along...and 6 books in, is to far to show a dark side. Nope, I believe Dumbly is a good wizard/man, who makes mistakes like everyone else but has a "Heart of Gold"
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
JKR said that look of triumph was important. I dont think Dumbledores a bad guy. JKR said in Albert Hall (cant remember exact quote) that "Dumbledores a wise man who lets him in danger because he knows whats coming in his life and what he'll have to face." I think theres definately something horrific that will happen to Harry thats worse than a final duel with Voldemort. It says Voldything is the most powerful Dark Wizard in a century. That bugs me because there was someone stronger than Voldemort. Sorry if Im getting off topic here but if Voldemorts the most powerful wizard in a century and Dumbledores 150 then DD has probably fought worse than Voldy. In chapter thirty book four Harry asks DD "Do you think hes getting stronger?" And Dumbledore says "Voldemort?" Who does he think? I thik the prophecy wasnt relating to Voldemort but to this other Dark Lord who may have his powers vanquished like Voldy did.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
yeah, I've always thougt it would be cool if thier was another dark wizard out their more powerful than Voldemort. Grindewald perhaps? We haven't heard much about him besides his mention on Dumbledore's chocolate frog card.
bring back 1912
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Ok, Harry is the only one who can kill Voldemort and visa versa. That is what the whole prophecy was about. That is why Dumbledore didn't kill V when he had the chance. And I don't think Dumbledore is a bad guy with secret motives to take over the world because he could have easily been MoM before Fudge.
So no I don't think Dumbledore is bad.
*Rica
So the question would be how much more black could it be? And the answer is none, none more black.
-Spinal Tap
AIM- RicaEleen207
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well the prophecy never specifically states that Voldemort is the Dark Lord. It doesnt say Voldy is the Dark Lord. I think it would be a good twist. Also it says "AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER, FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES" It says they must die at the hand of the other. Was this a figure of speech? im not sure if this has any connection but maybe the mention of the hand could point us to Wormtail since he has a silver hand. Maybe this is JKRs way of telling us Wormtail has something to do with the prophecy? also "neither can live while the other survives" I could be wrong (which I probably am) but arent both Harry and Voldemort living while the other survives? It could mean if read differently Harry and Voldemort cant live while the other one is living. Why didnt JKR say neither can live while the other lives? why the word survive? I think that since Harry and Voldemort are connected by that scar if Harry kills Voldemort and Voldy dies. Well if theres an afterlife behind the veil think how angry Voldemort would be. He'd be throwing a fit in the afterlife. Harrys scar would hurt so bad it would kill Harry too.
P.S. Sorry if this was so off topic and was such a long response!
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
That's an interesting theory with Wormtail, not sure how probable it is, but an interesting concept to stew over. As far as the live vs survive thing, I have always interpretted "living" as more than just being alive. It is being able to live a normal life. It is being allowed to go forward and do what you want without the risk of assasination. In Harry's case, bc of Voldy he's never had a happy life. Never, and I would not be surprised if we see Harry have more and more difficulty creating a patronus.
On a seperate note, in the book i am currently writing most of the conflict in inbred in the main character. He's the fulfillment of both a prophecy for a messiah, and the fulfillment of a prophecy basically saying he's the devil. He is his own antagonist. Although I'd be pissed if something like this happened (bc it would not be the first time that JKR and I ahve had similar ideas) I could see the "Dark Lord" being Harry. His two halves, neither of which can live fully until they overcome the other.
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
"Remember the enemy's gate is down"- Ender's Game
SoP
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
On a slightly differnt note goin back to the original question, what if Ddore has been affected by a series of prophecies. What if he has become so caught up in believing the prophecy that he never attempted to kill V becasue he knew he couldnt bc of the prophecy (regardless of whether or not he was capable of doing it). That would factor into the choice theme. Ddore's theme made the only person able to kill V be Harry. Thoughts?
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
"Remember the enemy's gate is down"- Ender's Game
SoP
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Well the prophecy never specifically states that Voldemort is the Dark Lord. It doesnt say Voldy is the Dark Lord. I think it would be a good twist.-smedy
No it isn't very specific, but it does include the birth of a child, whose parents had defied the dark lord "3 times". Can you think of any other "dark lord" Harry(or neville...) parents could have defied?
I just don't see how there is any twist too it. Harry could touch the prophecy, so we know it is him, and not neville...so I am confused by the confusion of the masses at the subject of the "prophecy".
Also, how could it be a "good twist"?
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I'm not convinced that Dumbledore has that power either. Just because he is almost god-like in stature among wizards does not make him capable of EVERY type of magic. Most yes.... all, no. Very much stronger in most yes.... all, no.
Anyway.
He has repeatedly shown that his mind is ultra sharp which makes him a force to be reckoned with. He basically slaps the Ministry in the face at many turns in the book. As far as his motive goes, I think that he did not know that Quirrel was THAT connected to Voldemort [fused with him, basically] but maybe he knew that Quirrel was in cahoots big time? And you know what they say. Keep your friends close but keep your enemies closer.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Not having my book on me right now (and not feeling particularly like going back and searching the FIFTH book) I am almost certain that it says that D is a legilimen. I could be wrong, but I am almost sure that it said it. Can anyone confirm? I agree however that he is not all powerful and feel that we've been set up for a shock. I think that there is more to Ddore than we know.
For one thing I think he is borderline obsessed with the prophecy. That is the only reason I can see that he would put Harry at risk like that in his first year. I feel he was trying to set up Harry for a show down and therefore did nothing in the 1st or the 4th book (assuming he knew about both "intruders" if he is a llegilimen)because he was hoping to bring about an end to V's reign. In the fifth book the major change was he felt that Harry couldn't win or at least D couldnt bring about the final battle, and therefore distanced himself from harry and let him act on his own accord...
The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits
"Remember the enemy's gate is down"- Ender's Game
SoP
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
"Why didnt JKR say neither can live while the other lives? why the word survive?"
You know, I wonder if that has something to do with another, slightly different meaning of the word "survive". When you outlive someone, you are said to have survived him or her. I guess that this could mean that neither can live after the other is dead, which means that they both die at the same exact time???
"Neither can live while the other survives"
COULD MEAN
"Neither can live while the other outlives"
Okay, that is extreamly confussing but I hope that someone here got what I was trying to say there!
Another thing that I originaly thought of was "neither can die while the other lives" but the explanation I gave before (neither can live while the other outlives) makes more sense, at least to me anyway.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
I think the look of triumph at the end of GoF refers to the spell that Voldemort used to come back to life. When Vol. was talking, he said something like "I realized that if I were to brace immortality once again, I had to set my sights lower at first...settle for old power". I think the spell Voldemort used brought back his powerful magic, and gave him a body...a MORTAL body. He couldn't die before, but now, he can. Dumbledore realized this, and along with the prophecy knew that Harry had a sporting chance.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
As for that, Dumbledore COULD possibly be a Legilimus..it is also possible that Quirrel, or B Crouch the "intruders" knew occlumency, to block Dumbledore from reading their minds.
It is safe to say that Voldemort himself is both Legilimus and knows Occlumency (sp?), so when he possesed Quirrel in SS/PS Dumbledore couldn't tell.
I'm sure Voldemort's most trusted and faithful Death Eater, Crouch, had some help/ability also.
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
Dictionary.com says this:
Survives:
1. To remain alive or in existence.
2. To carry on despite hardships or trauma; persevere: families that were surviving in tents after the flood.
3. To remain functional or usable: I dropped the radio, but it survived.
v. tr.
1. To live longer than; outlive: She survived her husband by five years.
2. To live, persist, or remain usable through: plants that can survive frosts; a clock that survived a fall.
3. To cope with (a trauma or setback); persevere after: survived child abuse.
Very well used word, i think it applies almost fully to the prophecy.
Board Quotes of the Week:
I'm too tired to tell you what I think. So I'll say this: F***ING LEAVE!-Chris
Hermione has to be the most dramatic. Blah. And Harry is one ugly mofo.-Narcissa
Scoring disabled. You must be logged in to score posts.
