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Listen to Dumbledore for he is a wise "guide"

August 5 2005 at 7:32 AM
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  (Login ShellyRena)

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I think we should stick with Dumbledore's opinion of Snape. In the Journey of a Hero, the wise guide would not steer the hero (or his readers) in the wrong direction. The setup has always been that Snape was "evil" think back to the first Quidditch match in book 1 where it was assumed that he was jinxing Harry's broom but turns out not to be the case. I believe that Snape is a shapeshifter who will reveal his true colors in book 7 that he also is a Dumbledore man (just like Harry)!

Turn to page 616 in HBP - the following quote is coming from Professor McGonagall "He always hinted that he had an ironclad reason for trusting Snape..." Tonks replies (as if echoing the reader's thoughts) "I'd love to know what Snape told him to convince him."

Let's take this out a little farther turn to page 166 & listen to what Dumbledore has to say "Professor Snape, meanwhile, will be taking over the postiton of Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher." On page 167 Harry responds with "That job's jinxed. No one's last more than a year...." (I might add that Snape is sitting on the right hand side of Dumbledore - right hand man, maybe - "Snape, who was sitting on Dumbledore's right..") Now turn to page 446 & listen to Dumbledore's statement to Harry "The aftermath of our little meeting proved that. You see, we have never been able to keep a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher for longer than a year since I refused the post to Lord Voldemort." Don't you think that maybe Dumbledore knew what was going to happen later that night after the visit to the cave with his appointment of Snape to the Defense of Dark Arts teacher? Snape somehow, someway was going to have to leave by the end of the year - as all DaDA teachers have in the past. I think Dumbledore has a bigger plan in place then we are currently aware & Snape is on the plan while not even McGonnall is!

Love to hear your thoughts on this!

 
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AuthorReply

(Login ShellyRena)

From Dumbledore's own mouth...

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August 5 2005, 8:40 AM 

Ok - forgot to add this to my evidence in the above posting - listen to Dumbledore's own words to Harry (HBP, 549)

Dumbledore: You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophency, Harry. I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he returned - " (Notice the JK always lets characters interrupt others just when they would say something profound)

Harry: But he's good Occulmens, isn't he, sir? And isn't Voldemort convinced that Snape's on his side, even now? Professor...how can you be sure Snape's on our side?

Dumbledore: Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. As last he said, I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely.

JK is using Harry as a speaking voice for us, the readers. She is allowing us to question Dumbledore on Snape's loyalty & Dumbledore has answered our questions along with Harry's. Again - Dumbledore is a wise guide and would not steer us or Harry in the wrong direction. When has Dumbledore gone back on his word? He promises to tell Harry where he had been disappearing to for the year and he did; he promised to take Harry to find one of the Horcrux and he did. If Dumbledore trusts Snape then we should too. I think the key line is when Dumbledore does not speak but trying to decide to make up his mind about something. I think he is trying to decide how much information to give Harry at this point but needs up by simply stating "I trust Severus Snape completely." Again - if Dumbledore does then I think we should too! More to come in book 7 I am sure....

 
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The Horcrux Hunter
(Login scarsneverheal)

stop.....

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August 5 2005, 2:41 PM 

OK shelly, your opinions, though how amusing and entertaining they are, are very annoying for the fact that this is the Harry Potter series not your hero's journey. therefore you should really give J.K. a little more credit for she wants to be original in her work.
'
P.S. Don't take this the wrong way

 
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(Login ShellyRena)

But is.........

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August 5 2005, 3:26 PM 

Dear The Horcrux Hunter,

I am giving JK credit for this being a orginal story but the structure behind Harry Potter is classic "Journey of the Hero". It is comparable to George Lucus's Luke Skywalker or Tolkin's Fellowship of the Ring. Stop and think about it. She has all the signposts of Harry Potter being a "Journey of the Hero" story - Set up and initation, point of no return, guides, threshold guardians, junior shadows, princess rescues, into the labyrinth, path of atonement, heart of darkness, & final journey's end. In fact, if you go back and read the some of JK's interviews she admits that Harry is the "Journey of the Hero" story. Don't believe me - try a google search on the components of what makes a "Journey of the Hero" story then we can talk about the merits of orginality of a story.

I would be much more interested in hearing your thoughts or counterarguments to my theories. Not defending the fact that Harry Potter is a classic "Journey of the Hero" story.

Hope to hear from you soon! Let me know what you find out about "Journey of a Hero" story from google.


 
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(Login ShellyRena)

Another DD theory

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August 5 2005, 4:07 PM 

Found this posting at the following:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/denorios/15782.html?page=1#comments

I've been thinking more about HBP...


I've been trying to think of possible reasons for Snape to have killed Dumbledore and not be evil. Yeah, I'm reaching, leave me be. I'm in denial. It's a happy place. And I wouldn't put it past JKR to be really sneaky like this.

Anyway, as I said, what if there was a way for Snape to have killed Dumbledore but not be evil? Snape has always shown his willingness in the past to face up to reality, to be the one to make the hard choices, to realise and act upon what others won't or can't. He's the ultimate realist, nothing emotional or fanciful about Snape. And Dumbledore has never shown any hesitation in the past in sacrificing his pawns if the need arises. So what if this time Dumbledore was the pawn he was sacrificing? He said to Harry in the cave that Harry's blood was 'worth' more than his, that Harry was more important than Dumbledore. What if the same is true of Snape?

After all, Snape made the Unbreakable Vow in order to prove his loyalty to Bellatrix and Narcissa. If he hadn't done what Malfoy failed to do, kill Dumbledore, he would have died himself. And if Snape was loyal to Dumbledore, then Dumbledore would doubtless have known that, would have known that the situation might potentially arise where it would be a choice between his life and Snape's. Now if Dumbledore felt that ultimately Snape was more important to the fight against Voldemort than he himself was, I don't think he would have had any hesitation about sacrificing his own life to save Snape. And Harry. And by extension, the Wizarding World. And, of course, the only way for him to do that would be for Snape to fulfil his Vow and complete Malfoy's task - and kill Dumbledore.

Which takes me back to Chapter Twenty-Seven...and Dumbledore's death. JKR writes that Dumbledore was 'pleading' with Snape when he says his name. 'Pleading for his life' is the inference Harry makes. Now Dumbledore in the past has never seemed to me to be the pleading type. And he has no fear of death - as far back as the first book, he tells Harry that 'to the well-organised mind death is but the next great adventure'. Dumbledore is not afraid to die. He tries to dissuade Malfoy from killing him because he doesn't want to see Draco become a murderer at just sixteen, not when there is still hope for him, not when it is clear Malfoy doesn't want to do the actual deed. He's trying to save Draco from himself here, not save his own life.

But he must know, he must know, that if Malfoy doesn't kill him then Snape has to. And he also must know that Snape would. And that's the 'revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face'. Snape is revolted by what he has to do, hates Dumbledore for putting him in that position and himself for what he's about to do. But he would do it. And Dumbledore knows that. Perhaps that's where the pleading comes in. Dumbledore isn't begging Snape not to kill him, he's pleading with him to have the courage to do what needs to be done. And Snape may be many things but he's not a coward. So he kills Dumbledore.

The more I think about this, the more I see holes in Dumbledore's death scene. This is one of the most powerful wizards alive, the only man Voldemort is afraid of, the man who defeated Grindelwald, the man who in the previous book managed to escape four Aurors without even breaking a sweat, and he's practically felled by a sixteen-year-old armed with Expelliarmus? Yes, he was weakened by the whatever-it-was he drank in the cave, but even then he managed to conjure up the fire to save Harry from the Inferius. And he managed to practically outrace Harry on the broomsticks in order to reach Hogwarts. Yet suddenly he can't even defeat Draco Malfoy? Dumbledore's not omniscient, he can't have known that there were other Death Eaters about to appear on top of the tower - so why freeze Harry, ostensibly to 'save' him? If it were simply a matter of stopping Draco, he wouldn't have needed to freeze Harry to stop him moving to save Dumbledore. A simple Stupefy or Petrificus Totalus and problem solved, Draco's out cold. Harry's never needed protection from Draco Malfoy before. So why now?

The only explanation I can think of is that Dumbledore knew he had to die. Even if Malfoy didn't kill him then, even if the other Death Eaters didn't appear on the tower, and the Aurors defeated them and returned calm to Hogwarts, the Unbreakable Vow would still stand. Snape would have to carry out the deed Draco failed to do or he would die. So Dumbledore is faced with three choice:

Save Snape's life, sacrifice his own, and force a sixteen-year-old boy to become a murderer.
Remain alive but watch Snape die.
Sacrifice his own life, save Snape's and provide him with an unshakeable demonstration of his loyalty of Voldemort.
I think Dumbledore would choose the last option. I think Dumbledore did choose the last option.

And what of Snape, are his actions after Dumbledore's death those of an evil man? It's hard to judge. He runs away, he flees with Draco, but then of course he would. Dumbledore has allowed him to prove, once and for all, that he's Voldemort's loyal man. He has to live up to that act now. So he runs. But he also stops other Death Eaters from torturing Harry, ostensibly because Voldemort wants him alive. He taunts Harry, but then he's always done that.

But the bit that made me pause the most is when Harry is down on the ground, saying to Snape, 'kill me, then. Kill me like you killed him, you coward'. And Snape screams 'don't call me coward', but there's a pause between 'don't' and 'call me coward', as though the 'don't' was an instinctive response to what Harry is saying about Dumbledore, and he's then twisted it into something else. And his face is twisted, distorted, 'as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them'. I doubt a man as self-possessed and in control as Snape usually is - with some exceptions, I will grant you - would react with such fury and pain to a sixteen-year-old calling him a coward.

No, the pain is in response to his killing of Dumbledore. If Snape were a true Death Eater, a true supporter of Voldemort, if he really hated Dumbledore, if he really had betrayed him as completely as it at first appears...would he be in pain over his death? No. He'd be exultant, gleeful, triumphant, gloating - all the petty reactions we see from him in POA when Sirius is captured and awaiting the Dementor's Kiss. He would be enjoying every moment, Dumbledore's death, Harry's reaction. And he isn't. He quite clearly is not reacting in this way. No, there's only pain. But of course he has to hide it, cover it up, make sure that Harry doesn't see it...because Snape has to be the loyal Death Eater now if he wants to stay alive. Any life he had as a double agent is gone now; he's akin to Sirius Black now, believed guilty of a crime he didn't commit: only Snape did commit it, but not for the reasons everyone supposes. So he casts whatever hex he casts on Harry, the 'white-hot, whiplike' slash across the face, the 'spots of light' dancing in front of Harry's eyes, to cover his reaction, to reinforce his new role. And then he's gone, to what we can only find out in the next book.

So you tell me, am I reaching? Am I in denial? Probably, but whilst I've been writing this I've been flicking back and forth through the book and I'm more and more convinced that there's more to Snape than we're seeing here. Although hasn't that always been the case?

ETA: I knew I'd forgotten to add something! In retrospect, what Hagrid says in Chapter Nineteen makes more sense now, about Dumbledore being angry with Snape. Snape is saying he doesn't want to do it (what?) anymore, Dumbledore saying he'd agreed to it and that was that. At the time we don't know what they're arguing about, we still don't, not really.

But it's not a stretch to suppose that Dumbledore's possible death is something they've talked about, in fact I'm sure they must have spoken about it at some point. Perhaps they didn't necessarily know the eventual circumstances, but with the position Snape was in it was always a possiblity that there'd come a point where it would come down to Snape taking drastic, perhaps unforgiveable actions or risking his cover being blown. I'm sure they would have been prepared for such an eventuality. I'm sure any good spy and handler would be aware that such situations can happen, and I'm sure that then just as now it's the mission that matters, not the individuals involved. But that doesn't mean Snape would like it. Or would even be sure of his ability to carry out such a plan.

ETA2: And one more thing - when Snape and Harry are duelling, Snape is giving him advice! Harry's trying to kill him and Snape is blocking him every time because he can read Harry like a book. Harry is trying to kill him and Snape is giving him Legilimens advice! 'Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!'

Oh, Snape. Break my heart, why don't you?

ETA3: I'm pimping this essay here now - so much of what I was thinking and more on the Horcruxes and the mysterious R.A.B.


 
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(Login cristallatus)

Re: Another DD theory

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August 6 2005, 1:04 PM 

I can tell you 100% LOUD AND PROUD. Even thought he is mean and everything.. I have ALWAYS since the beginging been a HUGE Snape fan ( and a fan of Oliver Wood). Therefore I am in on any thing that has to do with defending him...



Working on gettin' ALL SEVEN!!

 
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welshlou
(Login welshlou)

Re: Another DD theory

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August 9 2005, 6:27 AM 

I totally agree with you, i think Snape is a goodie. All your evidence is very convinsing, i was thinking the same. I think Snape will help Harry kill lord voldermort, Snape will do it for Lilly's sake.thanks.

 
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The Horcrux Hunter
(Login scarsneverheal)

im back

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August 9 2005, 12:44 PM 

Sorry i havn't responded to your post Shelly, i was over my dad's where i don't have a computer. but now im back

 
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The Horcrux Hunter
(Login scarsneverheal)

short and sweet

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August 9 2005, 12:57 PM 

Now, i will make my thoughts of the series short and sweet.

Snape: wants to stop The Dark Lord and was at Godric Hollow the night of Harry's parents death.

Dumbledore: very dead and has a weakness that would have led to his death even if Snape would have blown his cover: he has to believe in the best of people.

Ron: will be severely injured when he takes the crucio curse for hermione(but will NOT die)

Neville: will not be a major part of the 7th story.

Ginny: will be the one who helps Harry the most in the fight against The Dark Lord.

Harry: will hit The Dark Lord with a curse that Harry, himself has invented or Dumbledore leaves clues to. the curse will make voldemort feel remorse for those he killed and will let him know love. Voldemort would be very vulnerable and then the DA will attack him.

highly unlikely, but would be a good story line.

Yours till death,

The Horcrux Hunter

 
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(Login cristallatus)

Re: short and sweet

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August 9 2005, 8:15 PM 

That's Very cool. Even if it turns out not to be true, I still think that would make a WONDERFUL story line. So I say... NICE ONE!!!



Working on gettin' ALL SEVEN!!

 
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(Login agent57)

I Agree, Dude(ette)

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December 26 2005, 12:11 PM 

I agree with the Horcrux Hunter mostly, except I think that Neville will play a bigger role and probably get his revenge on Bellatrix Lestrange, if Harry doesn't get to her first. I also think that Neville is gonna hook up with Luna Lovegood, and that Snape is gonna end up dying, no matter how much I like him. And I also think that little-used Peter Pettigrew is gonna redeem his name, as Dumbledore says that there will be one day Harry may be glad he saved Peter's life. Anybody agree?????????

 
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(Login Gasnier)

Would be awesome

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November 1 2005, 12:30 AM 

In response to Shelly Leuthold's post, at first when you were talking about Snape being 'good' i honestly thought you were clutching at straws but after reading the whole post i am completely convinced. Well at least im hoping that you are right . . . if not it would at least make for an awesome storyline. Great work . . . best post ive seen on these forums. You seem to have researched it very closely and it sounds very convincing

 
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(Login Humidity)

Re: Another DD theory

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December 19 2005, 5:38 PM 

I was on the fence about the whole matter before, but after reading this I'm totally convinced! I always wanted to believe that Snape was good at heart, I want so much to hear his side of the story now. I bet JoRo has been saving it for last as well as all the other real kickers in the story, like Lily Evans's story and whatnot. I'm dead excited now!

 
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Pauli
(Login pauli67)

Great post

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December 1 2005, 10:02 AM 

We talk about this stuff a lot at http://mugglematters.com .

Pauli

 
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