You posted:

"I know we often say we don't see components of our messes and are repeatedly surprised when we actually register what we are seeing when we pause and look closely at areas, but I always thought we saw the aggregate and that's how we recognized the squalorous condition. Do you think that the animal hoarders deny their inability to provide care because they don't even see the aggregate results? Or what?"

I have been thinking about this since yesterday. I didn't want to post anymore on the other thread, but I think this is a really important question, and not just for animal hoarders but for squalorers, too.

How IS it that we can selectively look the other way at the results of our actions, even when to others they are obviously outside the pale?

I think....in both cases, that it is not just selective "blindness" to the whole effect but an inner belief that we should be judged not by our actions, but by our intentions. We don't INTEND to have squalourous homes so feel harshly judged when others say things like "Just clean it up, it's disgusting". I think staying stuck in this mindset really keeps us from feeling the true "pain" associated with finding yourself lacking in the ability to do just that. And if we don't feel all the "pain" that goes along with realizing that it is our behavior that we will and should be judged on, we aren't as motivated as a "normal" person might be to clean it up.

And for animal hoarders, I would be willing to bet it is very similar. They don't INTEND harm. They really feel they are doing the best they can, I would bet. I think a part of them probably knows they AREN'T doing very well, just as a part of a squalorer knows they aren't, but it's that insistent hope that we be judged on our intentions instead of our actions that I think is what really blinds.

Thinking about this has really been sort of a painful breakthrough for me. If a person can really not "see" the harm they are causing by allowing animals to be sick and hungry, how much am I not "seeing" in my own squalorous behavior? Sort of a wake up call, I should say.

and I hope this doesn't stray from the idea (and it's a good one); but I prefer not to be 'judged' at all. I just want to live my life and do the best I can; which, when compared to others' work, appears 'to not be my best.'

I know your post wasn't about judgment per se, it's just that word jumped out at me so many times.

I do agree with the point that I feel I don't want to deal with the obvious fact that I'm not handling it very well. Since it is an effort for me, and I'm trying hard NOT to judge others, I expect the same and label it 'respect. When I find myself being 'attacked' (which IMO is too strong a word but my mind fails me now, let's say correction, reprimanded, whatever) it just makes me want to fold my arms and give up in disgust as there is just no pleasing everyone. This is what I want to scream to them, "I've spent my whole life trying to please everyone but me. I want to do this for me! Leave me alone!"

That's not to say I'm correct, it's to say that is my feeling.

I do know I should do better, and I do know I'll be 'judged.' When there are as many opinions as there are people in the world (and different levels of and different judgment), then I don't feel I can ever measure to to everyone's; so why even try to measure up? I don't even want to try for the majority. I just want to give up because what I have accomplished is lost in the sea of what still needs to be done.

I just work on it to please me, but in that, I hope that my efforts to improve will be seen, even if I 'haven't gotten there yet.'

Another strange thing. I don't take compliments well at all, so I don't expect praise from the 'attacker.' I do it for myself and it makes me happy to do it for me, but also so they will leave me alone. I know this is perhaps not a 'normal' view, but I feel I've had so much directed at me even as a child when I couldn't make the bed up to please my parents.

Praise from you guys seems better to me.

*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

But I guess if I were asked to play a word association game and someone said: How do you feel about the state of your house? I would instantly answer "Judged".

It's the hardest thing I struggle with, in a way, deciding what is just unwarranted judgement by other people and what are things I really DO need to work on.

how we can NOT do what needs to be done.

it's perception.

Here we go again...lol.

I know I am going to get confused on the words, but I'll try.

When I walk into a home, I am not immediately struck by how it's kept UNLESS it is EXTRAORDINARILY exquisite or EXTRAORDINARILY squalorous.

When I see/smell/use new products, they have to be EXTRAORDINARILY bad or great to 'get my attention.'

My mom used to accost me after trying a new restaurant. She would excitedly ask, "Is the FOOD GOOD?"

I'm sure she was annoyed to no end when I said, "Yeah mom. It's food." It had to produce a mouth Org*sm for me to be so totally moved by food...ROFL. That kind of food doesn't show up for me very often.

Sometimes I think OTHERS are just so EXTRAORDINARILY sensitive to things that I (unfortunately for THEIR TASTE) am not; hence, if I don't 'notice' it being out of the ordinarily nasty or exquisite, it doesn't 'move' me to do anything about cleaning it or enjoying it. I just move through or past the day tolerating it's 'normalcy.'



*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

a symptom of depression. A therapist once told me that depression basically "flattened" your responses to things like eating, beauty, even sex. In fact, she quite memorably described depression being like the prospect of sex seeming to be about as appealing as the prospect of dining on birdseed.

It's not that you "dislike" things, exactly, just that they hold no joy or excitement. She said it was the natural consequence of trying to control your reaction to the negative emotions. In other words "Those who keep a stiff upper lip find it's d*mned hard to smile".

I was depressed and took Zoloft from 1997-2000, but what I described has been my entire lifetime. I DO have things that excite me, just not cleaning, and just not all restaurants, etc.

When I delve into a project I love, I hyperfocus and everything else is left out. It's assumed that I share the same tolerance or intolerance (say, for piles of stuff). I just don't. And I find it hard to 'get' why my environment is upsetting someone else that happens to live here. I understand they are upset, I just don't get why. I feel that I've failed someone.

So I try to drum up some 'fake excitement' in the form of games, chore bingo, etc. to raise my own competitiveness and just DO it.

Right now I want to take classes and that excites me, but I am trying to tell myself I don't need to take classes until I go through the piles of stuff.

(sigh)

*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

so I am "Hypersensitive" to things; like light, sound, smell. etc. So how is it I can put up with all the ickiness?
There is the flattening of depression theory, but I also think I am numb to it all. It's like if it isn't perfectly clean then it'll bug me anyway so what the h*%LL.
Just a free-floating idea since I know that some of us are HSPs.
mizzee

still suspect I might be. In response to your question: if I am "Hypersensitive" to things; like light, sound, smell. etc, how is it I can put up with all the ickiness?

In my case, take dust, for instance. I hate the way dust feels, particularly on my fingers. So much so that I don't want to touch it or get near it. Because of that, even when my house is basically uncluttered (which was a LONG time ago!), I rarely ever dusted unless I just had to, like if company was coming or something. Consequently, the dust just built up and built up and the more it built up, the more adversion I had to touch it. It's not that I was able to put up with the ick so much as the thought of getting rid of it was so much more loathesome.

Fortunately, I have finally recognized this problem after about 40 years and have learned some ways to cope. Now I try to use tools and utensils so that I don't have to actually touch things. Now I use handheld dust mops, gloves (although sometimes they are filled with a gritty powder that I find just as loathesome), vacuum cleaners, etc. Seems to be working better for me and even though there are miles left to go, my house is cleaner now than it has been in probably 5 or 6 years.

We CAN do it. That's the point and purpose of this site. We can do, it. Maybe slowly, maybe differently, maybe incompletely, maybe backslidey, but we can do it.

I sure can. I just survived a hell of a day, and I'm going to be here all day tomorow for challenges.

Maybe slowly, maybe differently, maybe incompletely, maybe backslidey, but we can do it

Can I steal it?

love,
pigpen

1

...you would make a GREAT speech writer! wow!



Moodle

I am so SICK And TIRED of that 'just snap out of it' advice, when directed to those with depression or 'inappropriate grief' or 'freefloating anxiety'. Also "get over it", "time to move on" etc.

Just do it!

Nike made a lot of money. Alas, I am not a shoe.

Luv from Script

I hear "just clean it up" & "just DO it" from my folks.
Grrrrrrrrrrrr.

I do just DO it...at my own time, in my own way, and at my own pace.

I posted a bunch of stuff months ago and it was entitled, "Just DO it."

That is not to be confused at ALL with someone else telling you to do it, it is your own voice telling you to DO it, and referring to just one thing in order to start somewhere, or to go on to the next thing that's bothering you.

It is a whole 'nother ballgame when someone else says "Just DO it" or "Snap OUT of it."

Hmpf.

*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

most disturbing about this is that it somehow infers that a person's character should be judged by the condition of their house. Squalor is a condition, NOT a character trait. To me, the people who condemn, judge, and criticize those who live in squalor are actually lacking in character. Why would I want to judge myself by those standards? It goes against everything I believe in.

Judge people on their character, not by their condition.

I think it comes from a basic misunderstanding that 'we are not our mess.'

I think I really agree wholeheartedly.

As another poster said, "Why don't we just clean up our mess?"

I kinda sorta want to say, "Oh. You mean why don't I file the way you do."



*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

the corpses started piling up

and I also agree with you, Soapy, that we can do it, barring severe physical limitation. Look how many people on this site are doing it despite chronic pain, limited movement, crippling arthritis. I think that's part of what's inspiring about this site for people who might have thought they were trapped by pain and fatigue (including mental) and as well for those of us who did not have to go to heroic physical measures.

The lady who has all that enormous stuff down in the cellar and is busting it up and hauling it out--she inspires me! If she can do that despite physical pain (and I believe I read that she lost her DH), I can quit whining about mere money and get off my, er, keister.

I come here and find someone dealing with something far worse than me. Well, it doesn't even have to be worse than mine, just different, and then I think, ~wow~ I'd better go tend to that little bit of ~nothing~ before it grows!

Or something like that. I do get really inspired by others talking about moving their stuff out.

unfortunately today and possibly tomorrow are going to be mostly off my feet days.



*~"After all...tomorrow is another day!"~* -- Scarlett O'Hara - "Gone With the Wind" (1939)

http://www.greatestjournal.com/users/whystlestop

Remember, people will judge you by your actions, not your intentions. You may have a heart of gold - but so does a hard-boiled egg. ~Author Unknown

We are all inclined to judge ourselves by our ideals; others, by their acts. ~Harold Nicolson

When deeds speak, words are nothing. ~African Proverb

Really I took that name because I wanted to convince myself that I can do it, but I am having trouble living up to that name. I truly believe that I can...I just need some support and need to know how. I think that I am gradually learning and I appreciate all the help here at Ss. I agree with Vildachaya about barring being physically incapable, folks are here proving that it can be done. Even those in pain and those facing adversities.
CD

it sounds overwhelming to me. I'm wondering if all of it is equally important to you or if some of it could be shelved, delegated, rejected?

Can anything be done differently or to a different timetable? Can paycheck be direct deposited to eliminate a car trip? Can kids start school with clothes they already own? Are there any suitable hairdos that don't require 30 minutes of blow drying every time?

n/t

"With Gold Medal you can do.
It gives you confidence
down to your fingertips,
your white thumb tells you
that you can't miss.
Can do! Can do!
With Gold Medal you can do!"

Every time I see your name, Cando, I think of this jingle advertising Gold Medal flour. Very perky and upbeat, adapted from a song in Guys and Dolls, I think. Wish I could remember the rest of the lyrics.....

n/t

those are a couple of the lines of the Guys and Dolls song, which I cited as the inspiration for the jingle. The song from the show is "Fugue for Tinhorns," lyrics by Frank Loesser.

I want to join in with Whys about sensory issues being part of the problem, at least for some of us. I know exactly what Whys meant about not noticing some things unless they are extraordinarily clean/dirty, tasty/awful, etc. I am the same way. While my husband notices every detail about food, I do not. In fact, he has this theory, which I tend to agree with to some extent, that some people who have a problem with excess weight may have greater sensory appreciation for food than those who do not.

This is not to say Why or I are depressed. I enjoy lots of things: books, computers, movies, games, my kids, etc. In fact, I might say that the things I enjoy (and maybe Whys too) are mostly things that involve the mind rather than the senses. That is probably why Why can get cleaning done if she makes a game out of it, thus challenging her mind.

This is not to say that those with a higher appreciation for sensory things do not use their mind! Nor that appreciation for the physical is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I daresay that adding that sort of appreciation on to an active mind could make the world more full (though also more awful, if there are unpleasant things to encounter).

But my mother used to "joke" that I was a very difficult baby because the very sunlight used to make me cry. You know, anything that touched my skin or any change in temperature or any stimulation. And I remember when I was in jr high and had gone back to school after a brief absence, not knowing about Hawaiian Day, and there were swirling, clashing colors on everyone I looked at, I got nauseated and headachy.

I think the reason that I don't see things is to do with this. I've trained myself to ignore visual stimulation! I am VERY good at blocking things out.

of also being very sensitive to sounds, colors, anything. I totally understand what you mean about feeling nauseated by the colorful shirts. But instead of having learned to block it all out, I can't seem to block ANY of it out. Which makes the sight of a squalor pile feel very much like an assault.

Yeah, I think that despite being an HSP, I have numbed myself to the squalor, kind of like poeple use alcohol to numb themselves, I've used squalor. Plus, a bunch of other stuff too but the squalor is the most maladaptive and hardest to deal with!
Of course, as soon as I am no longer numb to it I am just so grossed out that I cna't deal with it. Kind an either/or situation. I'm trying to work on this so I don;t have to deal with either case but I am VERY good at ignoring things until they are a real problem! Like the fridge. Blech. But I got all the yuck out, now I just need to clean it up. Plus the floor...
Oh, will it never end?
mizzee

n/t

I am VERY good at blocking things out.

You know, I think this is why I didn't score so high on the HSP test. I really do think I must be HSP, but I have become so.....I don't know, calloused or armoured over that I don't even recognize the things that bother me anymore. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing. I'd say it definitely has it's advantages, but on the other hand, I think not recognizing what bothers me often keeps me from being able to develop more workable solutions.

I want to join in with Whys about sensory issues being part of the problem, at least for some of us. I know exactly what Whys meant about not noticing some things unless they are extraordinarily clean/dirty, tasty/awful, etc. I am the same way. While my husband notices every detail about food, I do not. In fact, he has this theory, which I tend to agree with to some extent, that some people who have a problem with excess weight may have greater sensory appreciation for food than those who do not.

This is not to say I or Why or I are depressed. I enjoy lots of things: books, computers, movies, games, my kids, etc. In fact, I might say that the things I enjoy (and maybe Whys too) are mostly things that involve the mind rather than the senses. That is probably why Why can get cleaning done if she makes a game out of it, thus challenging her mind.

This is not to say that those with a higher appreciation for sensory things do not use their mind! Nor that appreciation for the physical is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I daresay that adding that sort of appreciation on to an active mind could make the world more full (though also more awful, if there are unpleasant things to encounter).