I noticed further down the forum that there was a debate about how good the Manchester Storm championship winning team were, which got me thinking, just who were the best ever ISL team?
It’s one of those topics which is purely subjective and based on peoples own opinions, but always causes no end of arguments in the pub.
Who were the greatest…
Manchester United 90s or Liverpool 80s….for me Liverpool
Coe or Bannister……for me Coe
Ali or Lewis….for me Lewis, but I guess I’d be in a minority on this one
Anyway, for what it’s worth, here’s my ISL choice:-
1. Sheffield Steelers (Grandslam winning season) – Undoubtedly the most complete ice hockey team I’ve ever had the pleasure to witness in this country. They had 2 solid netminders, a watertight defence, the best offensive defenceman I’ve seen in this country (Shayne McCosh) and 3 solid forward lines. Add to this character and toughness and it’s hardly surprising they went on to sweep the board. In fact, the only weakness I can think of was that the finishing sometimes left a little bit to be desired. Despite regularly outshooting teams, they sometimes struggled to finish them off, this seemed a particular problem against our beloved neighbours down the road.
The amazing thing is, that all the success was achieved despite a horrendous injury crisis and the well-publicised financial problems.
My biggest regret is that we never had the chance to see that team play against the top Europeans. I genuinely think they would have gone on to win the European cup that season. Let’s not forget how well London did in Europe that season and Sheffield were a far superior team.
If any smart arse feels the need to bring up the wage cap, forget it, I’m talking about the quality of the teams/players on the ice, not the money spent putting the team together.
2. Manchester Storm (Championship winning season) – Undoubtedly the fastest and most skilful team I’ve ever seen during the ISL era. With players like Woodcroft, Askew, Neumeir, Miller and Pitrangelo, KKs team had both highly skilled players backed up by one of the best ever ISL netminders. Whisper it quietly, but I always enjoyed watching the skills of that Storm team, although I did get bloody sick of losing to them every time we played.
However, I don’t put them top of my list because I do believe they had one major weakness…..they always seemed to struggle against teams who played physical against them. Nowhere was that more apparent than on home ice in the Play-off semi finals when Cardiff Devils stuffed them 5-0. Oh how we celebrated that victory with the Devils fans .
A great team yes, but not quite the best.
3. Ayr Scottish Eagles (Grand Slam winning team) – The thing I always remember about that team was that they played with 4 solid lines who did the simple things right and just kept coming at you. However, I do believe they were very reliant on Rob Dopson (in my opinion the best ever ISL netminder) and for that reason I wouldn’t put them above either Sheffield or Manchester.
Personally, I actually thought Manchester looked a better team that season and probably would have gone on to win the league if it hadn’t been for the injuries they suffered late on. However, you can’t ignore the facts, Ayr won all 4 trophies, what more can you say. It was just a shame they couldn’t hang onto the likes of Mark Woolfe, Sam Groleau and Rob Dobson for the following season, the above Manchester team may have really been tested if they had managed too.
I’m sure our friends from Belfast maybe surprised that I don’t include their team in the list considering how easily they won the league, but in my opinion that said more about the quality of the opposition rather than the quality of the Belfast team. Any team that concedes 7, 8 or 9 goals as often as Belfast did last season could never be considered great…..good yes, but great, give me a break.
Appologies if anybody finds this posting offensive in anyway, but as I said at the start, it’s only my opinion and I’m sure it’s probably slightly tainted by the fact that I’m a supporter of the Sheffield Steelers.
Steelers - There were times during that season when I sat and wondered at that team..Ask Slate from the Panthers about me at the Play Offs that year..
Storm - same as Doom above..The first real quality goalkeeper in the ISL and such a complete unit in general
Devils (1st ISL season)- If it wasnt for Pieterangelo (sp?) then i'd have tied these witht he Storm team above for the same reason.
Giants - last season again cos IMHO (note that please) I reckon last years ISL teams, my own included were the worse for quality( down to a poor wage cap level) i have seen since the ISL's inception
just my twopennorth..not set in stone, and maybe this season will bring a better team for the money from ANYWHERE in the ISL..
Working on Doom's theory of being a bit tainted, one would expect me to say the Eagles grand slam team was the best I have seen.........
Well, shock, horror.....
As I have said in person to many of you, I think the best team I have seen was the Steelers Grand Sham Team, irrespective of how it was formed.
They played some marvellous hockey that season and were a joy to watch all year. A good, physical,hard working, talented team.
Second for me is the true grand slam team of the AYR Scottish eagles. ( scuff how could you say Frankie P was the first quality goalie. tut tut) . As Doom says they were more of a hard working 4 line side who died for each other all season, we did have our injury problems up front but it was solid quality netminding and hardworking D that won it for us and the ability for every player to score goals from somewhere.
Third was the Storm championship team, Like you Doom I have always found Storm teams entertaining to watch and with Frankie P backstopping them they had a great season.
I will mention Belfast as a good side but prone to catastrophies which put them down a bit in my estimation but they too when on song were great to watch.
Unlike a lot of people I have been well entertained by Superleague and hope it continues and maybe one day start to move forward.......... Yeah I know. there goes that flying pig. but one can hope
I'll stand by my first comment..Dobber was huge bloke and filled the nets more than any before or after (including torchy )..Frankie P was a big lad too but was bloody nimble and had for my moeny, the better awareness, spatial and hockey wise..
we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I stand by my opinion that Ayr have had the two best goalies in superleague. Dobber and Jocky Gage.
Dobber and Gage, the tow best goalies ever to grace these shores, (Mrs D slaps me and says Bernie was best, Tambo will understand)as as for the best teams ever,
well need you ask, Eagles for me more cos of the ability to play 4 line hockey all season,(more or less)with a bunch of guys who did it for each other nothing else.
Best Teams
----------
1 - 2000-2001 Sheffield Steelers (Grand Slam Winners)
Ther most complete team ever to grace the UK. Could score on 4 lines best passing team i've ever seen, had what seemed like radar on their sticks when passing around, 2 damned good goalies & the best defense i've ever seen over here. Also when we went down a goal or two, there was still confidence we'd pull it back, that team had so many gears and didn't find it that hard to go up through them.
Although the team that brought me most hapiness was the 94-95 (Premier League & Playoff winners) team that clinched the title in the Panther's own building, great night, esp after coming from behind.
2 - 97-98 Ayr Scottish Eagles (Grand Slam Winners)
4 damn good, hard working lines, got the job done and you can't ask for better than that. Also helped to have a hot goalie. Not quite as good as the Steelers team above but not too far off them.
3 - 98-99 Manchester Storm (ISL Winners)
Fast, skillful, and again the goalie issue. This team could out skate any and out pass most teams that have been. Not too bad at finding the twine either.
4 - 91-92 Durham Wasps (Premier League Winners)
Ricky, Blaiser, Cranny, the Coopers.
This team was class all the way, the only team in this top 4 though which netminding wasn't too strong. Watched em whip us 7-1 @ Sheffield Arena 26-09-91
That was the start of 8 seasons without missing a home game, injury stopped me attending the start of the 9th season.
Best Coaches
------------
1 - Alex Dampier
Coaching god, did so damned much with Sheffield and Murryfield. Had the best hockey coaching brain i've seen in the UK, not a bad d-man either in his playing days.
2 - Mike Blaisdell
Surpassed Lawless last season, John wouldn't have been able to do what Blaisdell did in that short space of time + Blaiser is a better motivator. Not that far behind Damps now IMO.
3 - John Lawless
Fine coach, won so much with the Devils as player and coach also lead Storm to their ED1 title in 95-96, before last season would've been #2
All IMHO, which some may agree with and others may think is a total load of s**t.
This has come from 16 years of hockey (11 seasons of which watching the Steelers)
Hopefully we'll see some more silverware come our way again this season but i have a feeling it'll be the underdogs year, teams who you wouldn't expect like Nottingham, but i also have a feeling its the Storm's year for the ISL cup, though i hope we prove me wrong.
Well i am sorry but as has been said the steelers team was good ie a complete team no obvious weaknesses but as is to be expected given that they didnt adhere to the restaints other teams showed, its like winning the 100m seconds before other teams then find u have had drug enhancements and still expecting to keep the gold medal. I am sorry but whose name is on the woirld record for 100m, the person that has run it fastest or the person who has done it fairly? For my money, for what its worth the best team i think to play in this country (and its all relative to the time) was first the Ayr grandslam team a complete team who never gave up and kept coming at u in waves, no outstanding stars apart from the best keeper to ever play in this country but all very good solid players who knew their jobs and depressingly enough kept on doing them right through to the end of the 60 mins oh how i wish for a team like that in nottm!!. Second was for my money the durham wasps team had a solid contingent of local british lads, coopers, and some of the finest imports to play in this country brebant, blaidell etc etc. Again this is all imho.
The question was "Which is was the best team" not "which was the best legal team" or "which was the best team that came in under the wage cap" or even "which was the best team not to get caught breaking the wage cap"
One common thread running through all the above posts. A complete absence of the words "Nottingham Panthers".
For what its worth I would include a Panthers team in a top 5. The B&H Cup Winners of 1998 with Kolesar, Robins, Adey, Mitchell, Virta, Loewen, Leach, Hadden (at peak), Carpenter & Weaver (not to forget Jarret 'the nutter' Zukiwsky!!).
My top 5 would be:
1) Eagles slammers
2) Steelers slammers (despite wage cap stuff)
3) Manchester
4) Durham (pick a year!)
5) Panthers '98
i did scuff and i am sorry if it offends but u completely missed my point (intentional prob as it doesnt support this arent steelers great theme running thru does it) how can u claim to have the best ever team and i note i acknowledge they were good when it is so unfair to compare them given the MASSIVE advantage its like comparing the stanley cup winning side to milton keynes of course they would look a whole laod better wouldnt they?
and as for the dig against nottm yes that yr we won the autumn cup and went on to contend EVERY final that yr with several BIG issues hanging over the team one being a particularly crippling injury list with a VERY short bench so all in all a good team but just short of a great team imho of course
You're wrong. They MAY have had a massive advantage of teams of that season, but that season only. What about teams from previous seasons when there wasn't a wage cap?
been there done that but if u wanna have go by all means as far as i know the wagecap was brought about as nigh on as possible about the time the isl came into existence and was to curb the excesses of "some" clubs which were basically looking for short term gain at the expense of long term stability. this ring any bells? and i dont want ot hear it scuff that the steelers went bust cos DB was robbing them cos we are going to have to agree to disagree on that one. Most clubs such as bracknell and ayr when they won the leagues respectively didnt have club-busting wages and as i said it is generally only comparable to what else was around at the time which leads me back to steelers grand slam and how it is unfair to compare a team that has a massive advantage over others?
with Tex...indeed my humble submission to this thread a few days ago alluded to the same point.
Against some of my friends I sometimes show glimpses of 'Ronaldo' like class on the football field! Put me up against opponents however who know how to kick a ball...& I start to look a little less impressive.
The silky skills, teamwork & passing to which most of you Steelers fans refer to is more evident when other teams have a self-imposed restriction on the calibre of player they brought in that season. With two or more similarly matched sides, the showboating is perhaps not so obvious, whilst the ability can be just as high if not better. As far as I am concerned, teams (naturally) were better before the lowering of the wage-cap.
I believe the wage cap came in the 2nd or 3rd year of the ISL, IWTBC. So comparing the skill (which this thread is supposed to be about) of a team who broke an existing wage cap against a team who had no wage cap is a perfectly fare thing to do.
One you have as much proof as anybody that Bracknell and Ayr kept within the constraints as any of us have...so you cannot make that statement..we are all as wise of the dealings of the ISL owners as each other..
Two, on your comment about DB..you wont have long to wait for proof of him doing as you say he didnt Tex..his court case is due in the next few months..cant remember off hand the date, but the peelers in the Fraud Squad have their mitts on him..
i will look forward to the pint in apology my old friend..
But there is no suggestion that either Ayr or Bracknell firstly broke any wage-cap, secondly endangered their respective clubs by almost going bankrupt, nor thirldy spent way inexcess of any of the other clubs. IIRC when Bees won the league, it was tight until the final week of the season with Steelers, Storm & Knights battling it out with us.
As for your Grandslam season, the league was all but over by mid November...there was a lack of competitive threat to your side & hence rumours started to circulate, which no-one within the organisation has been able to provide evidence to refute. The ISL, in addition to indivdual owners (Black, Weddell,etc) were quoted about their concerns over Steelers spend, not to forget the aledged 'whistle-blowing' by one of your own senior players. You at least have to admit that there is at least circumstantial support for impropriety against your side for that season...nothing of the kind however has been aledged at the other two teams you mention.
That is not to detract from DB's creative book-keeping, an aside to the wage-bill issue altogether.
can we lay this to rest once and for all David and Tex
July 9 2002, 9:32 PM
...if you look on your calendar, you will see a date..that date is September 4th..
that is the day that the antichrist is due in court to answer the charges made against him by the peelers..
Those matters relate to financial misdealings that led to the collapse of the Steelers, CFC and almost but not quite the Sheffield Sharks..
NOT by paying over the odds wages that the majority will readily admit happened, we got caught, the ISL hadnt got the nous or the wherwithal to do owt abart it as they are all basically the same type of creature (no howls of sainthood from anybody here please, we have ALL been in the game long enough to know that..the difference is that we were caught..game shot!)
a lot of us can admit it and are trying to move on..some of us are even standing back and giving grudging praise to the old lad thats holding the reins now...but whilst ever folks like tex and yourself, david (this list is not exhaustive by the way) insist on bringing the same old bloody tired stuff up, in threads like this where hockey was the topic not its managment, then theres little bloody hope except for the grudge bearers..
Re: can we lay this to rest once and for all David and Tex
July 10 2002, 12:39 AM
hey scuff i didnt start this steelers love-in and arent our team great whilst detracting the fact that they basically cheated other teams that year now did i i think it was doom who stated "lets not bring up the wagecap" but then went onto say werent our team great i am afraid it is impossible to separate the two. Yes your team was great that isnt in dispute what is is the way you are ramming it down other fans throats now by saying werent we great u must see that surely? Imho the only reason you had a great team was due to the massive advantage your team afforded itself by giving itself an unfair advantage over the bidding process for players and lets be honest here those same players if offered higher wages elsewhere would have gone elsewhere they have no allegence to sheffield regardless of what the fans may think i give u exhibit 1 scott allison, what was he saying to u scuff at the end of last season? exactly. You see what i am saying here? And as for that pint u know u will get a pint of me scuff dont i normally buy u one anyway? a small price to pay for forcing u to hear me whinge all night and to look upon the beuty that is your most attractive daughter, good job she doesnt look like dad eh On that note if u want to drop this particular line then fine with me, how about something non contentious like arent those two grand slammers u have signed gunna be a bit pricey???
It's official, Tex considers himself a smart arse :)....
July 9 2002, 10:11 PM
It was meant to be a fun topic of conversation that wasn't too political, but some people it seems just won't let the past go. I bet you hate Germans as well.
Well if you want heavy, here's my thoughts on a number of the postings made under this thread :-
1. The comparison was meant to be between all the teams who have ever played in the ISL. At no point do I mention anything about which teams were best value for money or who had spent the most. For what it’s worth, my guess is that both the grand slam winning Eagles and the Championship winning Storm had bigger budgets than the Steelers Championship team. The question is, would these two teams have beaten the Steelers in a best of 7 series?
2. Talking of money, didn’t the Newcastle team that Rick Brebant coached allegedly spend over £1million pounds on wages that season when they had all the Fins?
Whereabouts did they finish in the League…..bottom wasn’t it?
It’s not all about how much you spend, it’s what you spend it on and how they gel as a unit. Granted money helps, but it certainly isn’t the guarantee of success some of you seem to be making out.
3. So Sheffield weren’t all that good then, it’s just that they spent so much more money than everybody else they had a major advantage. Are you sure we spent more than everyone else?
Yes we broke the wage cap, but from what I’ve heard, both Cardiff and Ayr spent more on players and Manchester/London weren’t far behind. I don’t know if this is true, but the fact is, neither do you. Perhaps the perceived advantage wasn’t such an advantage afterall, why were the titles never stripped?
Did the league have something to hide?
Also, can anyone answer me this, was the 35% over the wage cap figure before or after bonuses were taken into account? If it’s after, then the level of success clearly distorted what was a much more level playing field than some of you would believe (or should I say, would want to believe).
4. Finally, for those of you who are saying the Steelers were so successful because the rest of the league was poor because of the wage cap, I have two words for you…..London Knights.
Yes, it was the same season that London put up the best ever display by a British team in Europe. Now remind me again, where did London finish in the ISL that year…..was it 3rd or 4th ?.
As regards the Durham Wasps been up there with the greats, I’m just looking at the ice hockey annual 1992/93. Durhams results in Europe read: -
Has the standard of hockey in the rest of Europe also dropped?……of course not, lets not forget how much better teams are now than they were before the ISL.
Finally Tex, you’ve heard the old saying, what goes around comes around. Well I just hope for your sake the Panthers are not too successful this season, otherwise you’re going to end up spending all your bloody time on guestbooks fending off accusations of cheating. Just take a look at your squad so far…..mmm, I see a lot of high end earners, could be fun
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe that the figure quoted over the cap was distorted by win bonuses,which came to more than anybody ISL included expected..so yes we were, but by less than the figure given..
and yes Doom lad...its a shame that it always has to come down to the same old crap innit..
Re: It's official, Tex considers himself a smart arse :)....
July 10 2002, 12:44 AM
Doom just a quick point here as i cant be bothered to argue all your points if the panthers are succesful next season and its a BIG IF (not convinced myself but we will wait and see eh) they i wont give a toss what other teams fans say until the ISL provide proof and strip the trophies cos i have seenthe 1 season 4 trophies crap that some of your fans wear and how insensitive is that?
For your information, they never stripped the trophies from us. In fact teletext said yesterday, Norris and Simpson return to the team they helped to the Grand slam. Shall i phone ITV and tell them they're been incencitive?
its spelt insensitive and yes i believe it is insensitive and it shows teletext take their lead from someone like dave simms or someone in their organisation who knows nothing about ice hockey in this country, as lets be honest even steelers fans accept they cheated that season and its down to a basically gutless ISL who dont want to give the impression the season was wasted as to why they havent done anything more constructive. As an aside point doom given the complete inertia of the ISL regarding the trophies what would stop the panthers or whoever (unlikely to be panthers as Heir Flick is as tight as NL) from busting the wage as sheffield did and taking all the glory as sheffield did they admitting it as sheffield did but still keeping the trophies as sheffield did??
Teletext reports are written by the clubs they are about, at least thats what I was led to believe, all match reports in sport are written by the home club hence they are virtually identical on all channels.
Oh and come on Tex me old chum we can all sit rocking backwards and forwards reminding ourselves the Steelers cheated but it won't make a blind bit of difference to history! =o)
Andy isnt that what i was alluding to? The point is any team can cheat all they want it wont make sod all difference cos the ISL are gutless and thats my point whats stopping teams from doing it again cos as i see it sheffield has hardly been penalised now has it? But anyway old hat i didnt want to bring it up but when people start talking about great teams it seems unfair as a fan of another team to hear how wonderful sheffield's team was given that they didnt adhere to the restaints of other teams and to say ignore it is not the possible as they the great team and the amount of money they spent on that team go hand in hand imho of course !!
That we shouldnt talk about owt cos our team 'cheated' ever again..
Shall we bring up the matter of the time when you lot, us lot, Cardiff and Murrayfield all got done? and yes I know the punishment was rescinded for you and Murrayfield..and for exactly the same reason as we were in the offending season..the majority of our 'over spend' was for the win bonuses..
I’m sure some do, but I think most, like me, think we were just playing the same game as everyone else, only difference is, we got caught. Although wasn’t there supposed to be some ISL memo floating around that season actually claiming 5 teams were over the wage cap?
The fact of the matter is, we were officially Grandslam champions, you may not like it, but it’s a FACT, learn to live with it and move on. As Sir Geoffrey Boycott always says when a batsman doesn’t like an LBW decision given against him, “look in the paper tomorrow, that’ll tell him whether he was out or not.”
Do you really believe that all the other ISL teams were whiter than white over the last two seasons? If you do, I guess you also believe in fairies.
I actually heard off someone that the season we won the Grandslam (oops sorry, how insensitive of me), the only team not to break the wage cap was Nottingham. If this is true, then I guess you should have been Grandslam champions by default. I can see the T Shirts now….”One crap team, four trophies .”
As regards the second part of your question. My guess is that all the owners will know roughly how much each of the other clubs has spent. I think they will also accept that clubs will try to bend the rules to some extent by finding ways around the wage cap. However, I genuinely think they’ll turn a blind eye to it unless one team takes the mickey and spends an absolute fortune, at that point I guess something would be said BEFORE the season starts.
It’s time to move on Tex and look forward to next season. From the players you’ve signed so far, even I’m looking forward to seeing the Panthers play, so you must be really enthusiastic…..could be fun.
doom i am desperate to drop this but u keep bringing it up, as for other isl teams pure speculation u know about as much as i do ie ZERO facts whereas even simmsy has said about the money hasnt he. As for your did against the panthers most uncharitable given if your rumours were true and we were the ONLY team to stick to a predefined set of rules as set by the owners of the teams themselves. Oh as an aside didnt our "crap" team beat u more than u beat us that season too? One final point i wouldnt go shouting it too much in other teams arenas that u were the grandslam champions regardless of one Mr boycott says as another great quote "a smack in the mouth oftens offends" would most probably apply!! cos i think u will find other teams fans feel to a greater or lesser extend as i do about the whole fiasco, can we now drop the subject?
I didn't want to bring the subject up in the first place, hence why I mentioned that in my original posting.
As regards shouting about our G/S in other arenas, if I wanted too then I would, it's a free country afterall. However, it's now over a year ago and the current Champs are Belfast, time to look forwards not back. I think we've both made our points and I agree with you....time to drop it.
As regards you beating us during that season, it was a strange one that, we seemed to regularly outshoot you yet somehow seemed to lose. Although I do think it's worth mentioning that the points between our two teams were split evenly because 2 of your wins were in O/T and hence we got a point .
"best ever performance London Knights. whilst I applaud their efforts to get to where they did that year I would humbly suggest the Eagles beating the Russian Champions home and away and nearly doing the same to the Czech Champions and only going out of the competition 55 seconds from the end of the Mannheim game warrants a serious mention
I was just using London as an example to show that perhaps the Superleague wasn't quite as bad 2 years ago as some of us (myself included)might think.
It goes without saying how well Ayr performed that season in Europe, but as I said earlier, they were a superb team...is that OK for you, or are more superlatives required?
If you do read this Tambo, how do you feel about the Eagles moving?
Personally, I think it's a very sad day for the town of Ayr and the loyal supporters, lets hope it doesn't happen .
...I have to plump for Manchester Storm. They were just superb pretty well all year (& yes I also include the semi-final playoff home shut out defeat).
The reason why I tip them above Sheffield, is that they were playing against a far higher calibre of opposition. These last two years in ISL, the standards of most teams have fallen - Sheffield the year before being the obvious exception (although not neccessarily fairly!)
Steelers were a very good side, and IMHO, your semi-final victory against my Bees was the best match I saw all year, however the standard of that particular game would not have been unusual a couple of seasons before.
For me (& afterall this is only for fun), I would go with...
1. Storm
2. Eagles
3. Steelers
4. Devils
5. Bees (although, and admittedly I am biased, I think that Chasse, Drouin & Goodwin...sometimes Riehl, was the best forward line I have seen, closely followed by Courtney, Wynne & Hand).
of the AYR Scottish eagles. ( scuff how could you say Frankie P was the first quality goalie. tut tut) . As Doom says they were more of a hard working 4 line side who died for each other all season, we did have our injury problems up front but it was solid quality netminding and hardworking D that won it for us and the ability for every player to score goals from somewhere.
.