Ok so long story soryy in advance. After finding our current "day care" and training center over a year ago we thought life was good. Our 1.5 year old girl had improved her behavior around other dogs and had learned some good commands. Gradually we started to hear about Kimi "acting up" at day care. Not listening to the other trainers breaking out of her enclosuer etc. a couple of weeks ago I picked her up from daycare and was told that she had bitten the "morning trainer". I was told that the trainer was trying to get her into her "area" when she started fence fighting and instead of correcting kimi with the prong collar the trainer just tried to pull her away and that is when Kimi bit her. Apparently the trainer (and others) are afraid of my darling daughter and she has been testing her limits with them. The head trainer then wanted to set up a time to work one on one with me and Kimi which I thought was great until she said that she wanted to use a shock or "e" collar. I explained that we were not interested in using a shock collar and asked if there was any other method. The head trainer and owner then told me that the "e" collar was reccomended for a number of reasons and that she uses one on her dog etc. etc. etc. Still choosing not to use a shock collar on Kimi we have now been asked not to return until we can get her "frustrations" figured out because she seems to be "regressing". There are many other details that if you want to know just ask however, this is my question...

Kimi is bored with all of her toys, commands games and tricks, has anyone trained an Akita to track (search and rescue, drug dog etc.)? Are there any other effective ways of training a stubborn young female? Since daycare is out (at least for now) are there any reccomendations for keeping her entertained for a few hours a day?

Tough situation. Sounds to me like you need a behaviorist more than a trainer right now. Nice of them to let you know how all of this was developing. Where do you live? Maybe someone here knows of someone good in your metro area. I know a few people in Illinois, but my network is not that broad.

I train my boy in tracking and when it gets cold, we will start detection work. Honestly, I would not recommend it right now in your case. Here's why: with tracking, the dog is in the lead. The dog is the leader and the human follows behind and hangs on as the dog pulls him. IMO not exactly the relationship you want to be reinforcing. Maybe something fun for later but not now.

I hope you can accept some Straight Talk without taking offense, Jerry <:-)

1) K9 day-care and Akitas are a bad bet from the start, just like dog parks.

2) Akitas are a naturally dog-aggressive breed that is also easily bored.

3) An unruly dog is a no one's "darling daughter", but a spoiled rotten pet.

4) Behaviorists are exhorbitantly expensive & often end up being useless...

5) Your Akita needs a course of Alpha Bootcamp/Groundwork Protocol instead !

I agree with Jordan that Tracking is not an answer for your lack of Pack Structure in the relationship you've allowed to develope with your Akita,
so I recommend the following online articles & detailed follow-up DVD's:

http://leerburg.com/puppygroundwork.htm

http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

http://leerburg.com/308.htm

http://leerburg.com/120.htm

It doesn't matter that your dog isn't a weanling anymore, because you need to go back to Square One and start over from the beginning anyway -- All of these training aids work equally well on young pups AND adult Rescues dogs too <:-)

I could have saved myself a lot of typing if I read yours before posting mine. lol

Well done!

I have a girl with an EXTREMELY high drive and is very easily bored. My husband and I started her basic training (alpha & basic dog manners) as soon as she arrived at our home. My husband was able to take her to work with him (when he wasn't traveling for work) until she was 6 months old, so she had lots and lots and lots of people socialization. We had to put in a great deal of "alpha" work with her until she was 2 years old, at which point she finally conceded that I am more alpha than she without a daily reminder. She even went through a second round of basic obedience when our boy did his so that she was working, getting positive attention, and reinforcing basic skills. Also, ANYONE who might be taking care of her (neighbor who checked on her when I had a long day at work & husband was out of town, dog sitters, then in-laws when we moved in with them)were all shown how to work with her & given an alpha position over her.

Because she is easily bored, she does need a "job" to do. Her job is running agility. At about a year old, she started one day a week in agility training. Now, at age four, with weather and life permitting, my husband takes her to the agility field twice a week. We also do daily quick run throughs of equipment in our yard. We currently have 12 pole set of weaves and an A-frame up. Sometimes there is a jump up, too. Once I have time to paint the "skins" there will also be a dog walk to practice on.

Blaze could easily have been an out of control Akita, but consistent training and reinforcement of acceptable behaviors have helped her develop into a very sweet girl who has passed her Temperament Test & pleasantly surprised agility trainers, agility competitors, and even out current veterinarian, who previously were scared/nervous when meeting an Akita.

You & your husband have really done a GREAT job with Blaze !!! Akitas are a breed with a TON of potential for all sorts of really rewarding canine activities, but it takes serious dedication & time devoted to conditioning them to your leadership, because Akitas are VERY serious dogs -- THANKS for sharing such an exciting success story

My vet was also scared half to death of my Akita at first. He would not get near Josey without a muzzle, well at least until I talked to the vet and he seen for himself that Josey was a good boy. He actually told me that Josey was the first one that did not try and bite him. So sad

I am by no means a professional but from what I can tell, you need to get your dog out of that environment and into some real training. You need a trainer that knows how to deal with large dominant dogs. Your dog to me has assumed the role of Alpha and will continue to do so until she is brought down. If the trainers are afraid then they are the worst people on earth to deal with her. She needs, in my opinion a very firm and confident person that will put her on her back in a split second when she acts out.

Just a word of advice on shock collars you could be making the problem worse not better. once your Akita red lines, shocking her can add to the aggression. Your really just adding fuel to the fire. Leerburg has some really good dominant dog collars that are designed to take the fight out of the dog and not add to it. Leerburg also has a lot of really good books and videos on dealing with a dominant dog. I would still seek professional help.

Please tell us more about your girl and I hope everything works out for you and your pooch

Of course, I actually have no problem utilizing the RIGHT e-collar, the RIGHT way, for the RIGHT situation -- When used correctly AND in the proper context, e-collars are extremely HUMANE (however, that's a subject for another thread)...

Meantime, as we've all said, Alpha Bootcamp/Groundwork Protocol is the first order of the day in Jerry's case -- but I would NOT recommend that he suddenly start trying to pin an adult Akita to the floor on her back, because she might just as easily be tempted to bite Jerry in that scenario <:-(

Demoting this dog to the bottom of the totem pole can successfully be done even without administering any intimidating or punitive corrections <:-)

Was talking about a professional trainer not the owner. I would never advise that for someone untrained or unable to physically handle the dog.

Then I feel compelled to add:

It's my strong personal conviction that anyone other than the dog's own master (whether they're a behaviorist, trainer, vet, animal-savvy friend or stranger) really has NO business even correcting someone ELSE'S adult Akita (especially & particularly one who has already BITTEN a canine day-care professional) nevermind attempting to "alpha roll" the pet -- No one outside my immediate family is ever allowed to discipline our dogs even mildly & absolutely NOT by the use of intimidation, man-handling, or punitive tactics...

Okay "rant off" now <:-)

OK I'll break it down to Barney level

1. the day care persons are not professionals IMHO. Sorry but they rank right up there with petsmart trainers in my book.
Im not saying there useless but to go as far as calling them professionals is a leap.
2. I agree that the owner should be there during training, and must also be the one doing the training following the guidance of the professional, but the line is drawn during an attack, or a red lined dog period.


POP Quiz
Question? The owner has no clue on how to stop a red lined Akita that is attacking, "does not really matter what, dog, person, butterfly, fence, whatever" but you have a professional standing there. Does the professional?
A. do nothing and hope it goes away
B. tell the owner to go jump in there and stop it "ouch"
C. professional give instructions on how to do it properly while the attack is taking place, oops fight is over, took to long
D. professional steps in and stops the attack by what ever means is available. "poor owners and dogs feelings will have to get over it"

And lets not forget leash corrections, verbal commands and pretty much any thing short of a tactical missle at this point is like trying to put out a forest fire with a garden sprinkler.

Its my opinion that a professional can and must step in and take charge at this point. Or similiar circumstances where a untrained owner might not have the skills yet to deal with it. that's why they are professionals, they have the knowledge and ability to break the fight up safely, and hopefully stopping it before it even begins, and if that means taking the leash out of the owners hands then so be it. The owner will get over it. If they don't then they probably don't need to own an Akita. Either way its better than a attack. but then again I doubt a professional will recommend the dog being around other animals or people for some time. At least not without a muzzle,
and if Im a trainer and a dog has a bite record its getting muzzled, and if the dog is trying to get all Alpha on me its going on its back, sorry. I'll be sure to explain what and why to the owner at a later time.

Hope that was ranty "is that a word" enough lol

1) Kimi is NOT exhibiting "red zone" behavior, but she is definitely in need of BASIC consciencious Alpha Bootcamp/Groundwork Protocol immediately -- It is truly amazing how even 2 weeks of Amichien Bonding can transform a dog from "devil" to ANGEL <:-)

2) Pack Structure conditioning of this sort can be successfully accomplished even by novice owners using no punitive corrections, if they will follow the no-cost instructions provided in online articles & affordable videos available from http://www.leerburg.com

3) Removing Kimi from doggie day-care where she has been entrusted to inept staff who do not practice sound containment, handling, management & training techniques that are applicable to Akitas is certainly Step One for Jerry...

4) But suddenly "passing the leash" of an adult Guardian Breed like the Akita to a STRANGER to abruptly command & correct (no matter how professional they are) is simply not recommended for a dog in Kimi's circumstances -- Why not ??? Because that would be unnecessarily confusing, frustrating & traumatizing for HER and wouldn't teach JERRY how to properly communicate with & control the actions of his own pet ... This is a situation that CAN be fixed by much more LOW-KEY and inexpensive means, beginning with something as EASY as practicing "Nothing In Life Is Free" conditioning...

5) AFTER carefully following a serious course of Alpha Bootcamp/Groundwork Protocol to re-hab Kimi's behavior & train Jerry in the RIGHT way to live with an Akita, THEN they can move forward in remedial Obedience Work & also go on to pursue Rally, Drafting, or any other fun & rewarding canine activities/athletic events -- However, all this is do-able WITHOUT turning Kimi over to a professional "Drill Sergeant" for disciplinary action, IMHO <:-)

I hope Jerry is reading all of these posts...............and I have to agree with CC.  

 I took Shakira  (she was 2 years old and a rescue) to my trainer for one on one obedience training as she did not like being told what to do and extremely mouthy.  She was not listening to her command  so my trainer took the leash ( first mistake was letting someone else correct her) and gave her a very harsh correction... not once... but 2 times.  Shakira turned and snapped at her.  It shocked and scared me as I was not expecting it all.   I decided not to go back and just work with her myself.  I can tell you she transforming into a great dog.   Oh yes stubborn.......but she listens and her arch enemy is bitter apple spray.   She can see the bottle and become an angel.  Amazing how something so small and not physical puts her into complete submission. (not saying bitter apple is a solution...just a training aid for us)

Kimi does not sound like an Akita that is "red zone" but just really needs some boundaries and some very good obedience and reinforced Alpha training.

Julie

You've provided the perfect example from your personal experience of why I agree that having any stranger (even a professional trainer) give commands & corrections to someone else's ADULT Akita is neither a good nor safe thing to do...

I mean no disrespect or offense to our friend Jimmy at all & I don't want to start a huge debate over "what works for who, with which dog, whenever" but am just trying to help Jerry & Kimi avoid some unnecessary financial & physical pit-falls...

Their situation is SO fixable by some minor Life-Style changes & it would really be sad if this kind of advice were to go unheeded <:-(

Below is an article that will help put you back in charge.   Kimi is really displaying some bad behaviors that if are not stopped now and redirected will continue to get worse.  I can tell how much you love her but you need to take control and show her once again who the boss is. 

I agree with CC that doggy day care is probably not the best place for her anyway.  You will have to devote some time to really work with her.  The sad truth is she may learn to tolerate other  dogs but may never LIKE them...which can always lead to aggression.  It is just a truth about our breed. 

As far as an E-collar ....if used properly (which is the key word here) they can be a good training aid.  They are not for everyone and nothing can subsitute for good obedience classes.   I wish you luck and keep asking questions and come on here and ask for help.  It really helps to talk to people that have "been there" and "done that". 

You may have read this article but it never hurts to read it again:)

http://www.sonic.net/~cdlcruz/GPCC/library/alpha.htm

Julie

.

I never thought my post would have produced this kind of response! Thank you all for your feedback it has all been helpful. Just some clarafication:
Kimi has never exhibited what I would consider "red line" behavior. When she has gotten out of hand we have resolved the situation and usully on a positive note. She has been "mouthy" in the past but has calmed down quite a bitthe longer that she has been with us. She has always had an issue with other dogs. There has been only one dog that she has been able to play with and not have it end up in a full on fight. Oddly enough the dog belongs to the head trainer and he is a Cane Corso. I have had some success with pinning her to the ground until she is exhausted and gives up. She has stopped "freaking out" everytime she sees or hears a dog and she will let anyone pet her so long as they don't go over her head (and with one of us present obviously). We live just outside Philadelphia and our original purpose for putting her into day care was to get her better socialized with other dogs. While she acts up from time to time I would not say that she is unruely by any streatch of the imagination. We have just bought her a back pack hoping that she will feel that she has a job while we walk. The kicker is that the only time we have ever seen her try to bite someone was when the head trainer lost her footing and (while trying to catch herself) swung her arms towards Kimi. We will be looking at the alpha bootcamp and other options for Kimi. I failed to mention this in my original post but she is a rescue. we got her when she was 6-8 months old. She grew up around other rescue Akitas and pit bulls. When we went to meet her for the first time it didn't seem like there was a lot of socialization that was taking place for any of the dogs.

No amount of socialization will ever "make" an Akita like other dogs -- the goal of YOU training Kimi is to have her focus on you and IGNORE other dogs she wants to bite ... This is very do-able, but it will NOT make her safe to "play" with dogs she wants to fight -- That's just a fact of life with 90% of all Akitas.

Akitas should not be kept where they have any opportunity to fence-fight with other dogs -- it's a terrible habit that encourages all the WRONG canine drives to explode out of control in our breed ... Dogs in a fence-fight can & will take out their frustrated aggression on the nearest available subject (this can be be near-by pet in their own household OR a person who tries to grab their collar) it's called Displaced of Re-Directed Aggression & that's why Kimi bit the doggie day-care staff member.

A rescue dog that you have not personally raised from puppyhood & who has already bitten a human in any situation is NOT a safe candidate for "Alpha Rolling" unless you have her wear a police-style leather muzzle (those are VERY expensive & the dog can still BREAK your nose or even your JAW while wearing one!) so it's just not recommended...

So, where do you start instead ??? I suggest beginning with some top-notch FREE online articles, plus an inexpensive BOOK, and some affordable state-of-the-art DVD's -- Please access the following resources where you will find a ton of useful information on NON-CONFRONTATIONAL re-hab conditioning:

http://leerburg.com/groundwork.htm

http://leerburg.com/308.htm

http://janfennellthedoglistener.com/about.htm

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Old-school "yank & crank" harsh corrections & intimidation tactics or punitive techniques are most likely to back-fire at this stage of Kimi's training -- It's time to establish & build upon a basis of TRUST and YOUR leadership ... This groundwork conditioning is ALL done while using positive methods only, and then building up to firm corrections comes later on in due course, as necessary -- Remember, this is a RE-HAB program, so you're starting all over again with Kimi from Step-One <:-)