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Sahara H87 A3 Kitttyhawk,1of 540 direct British contract (last pre lend lease) oldest H87?

April 24 2012 at 10:14 PM

Hume B. Bates  (Login humebates)
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from IP address 184.98.37.55

per "Curtiss Fighter AircraftA photographic history "

The H87 A3 Kitttyhawk Mk1(not Mk1a) is one of 540 direct British contract (last pre lend lease) starting Ak591...

This was a close to the US P40E (not E1)these were the first of the six .50 wing gun H87

(the only earlier model H87 was the four .50 wing gun model, the H87A2 Kitttyhawk Mk1 20 built & P40D 22 built )

The next block after this was 1500 H87 A4 Kitttyhawk Mk1a = US P40E1 and the first lend lease H87 Kitttyhawk

So this is a rare bird..should be the oldest Curtiss H87 in existence and only direct British contract(pre lend lease)Curtiss H87 in existence ...

I would think this is one the RAF would want to recover asap

Obraz%2520142.jpg


    
This message has been edited by humebates from IP address 184.98.37.55 on Apr 24, 2012 10:26 PM
This message has been edited by humebates from IP address 184.98.37.55 on Apr 24, 2012 10:25 PM
This message has been edited by humebates from IP address 184.98.37.55 on Apr 24, 2012 10:23 PM
This message has been edited by humebates from IP address 184.98.37.55 on Apr 24, 2012 10:22 PM
This message has been edited by humebates from IP address 184.98.37.55 on Apr 24, 2012 10:22 PM


 
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(Login humebates)
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184.98.37.55

Sahara Kittyhawk built to British contract (not lend lease) underside factory light gray?!

April 24 2012, 11:10 PM 

Sahara Kittyhawk built to British contract (not lend lease) so Curtiss should paint to British contract colors....

However the gun bay door that seems to have been painted at Curtiss factory (note Curtiss applyed decal still in place) is painted a light gray (not US Dupont paint versions of British sky or azure blue)

Also the shell ejector shoots were taped over and paint red?

Obraz%2520163.jpg

 
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(Login JimBates)
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76.188.252.56

Not the only surviving British Contract H87A-3

April 24 2012, 11:52 PM 

Quite a few of the surviving RCAF Kittyhawks are H87A-3s that were direct purchased by the RAF and diverted to Canada. RCAF 1028 (AK752) being the oldest survivor.

Jim

 
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John Bollig
(Login KOMET163)
HyperScale Forums
66.232.197.204

Is that plane from the 414 RCAF Squadron ?

April 25 2012, 10:38 AM 

Found some really cool pics of the 414 online and really a cool scheme.

patron saint of unloved model kits

long live airfix, death to the heretics


 
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(Login H-87A-2CU)
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124.176.1.30

H87 A3's

April 25 2012, 1:18 AM 

Hi Jim

Sorry but what you are looking at in the Sahara is a P-40E-1CU. The fact it has a Wing Ammo box plated as a A-3 means nothing, as these parts were interchangable. The proof that it is a P-40E-1 is in both the videos and the stills, the associated features you would expect to see on an H87A-3 are not present.

Buz

 
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Hume B. Bates
(Login humebates)
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184.98.37.55

Can you elaborate as to what features you see as prove an E1 vs A3

April 25 2012, 1:35 AM 

Can you elaborate as to what features you see as prove an E1 vs A3

 
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(Login H-87A-2CU)
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124.176.1.30

E-1 vs A-3

April 25 2012, 1:45 AM 

The A-3 (non lend lease model has blue formation lights below the front on the cockit about halfway down the fuselage, they look like small circles.

The E-1 does not. Have a look at the links attached to this reply and see what you think, and if you can or can not see them on the Sahara Wreck.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/149674/message/1335332519/When+is+a+A-3+not+an+A-3

Buz

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Is it that simple a division? Clearly the wreck does not have a position light.

April 25 2012, 8:35 AM 

But did it end exactly with the A-3 production run. Or, was it phased out in the A-3 run? Given the way US production went, it m ay or may not have been changed with the beginning of a new production designation run. Given the absence of serial numbers on many early USAAF P-40Es, it is difficult to tell.

Interestingly, there is not one, but two plates indicating A-3.

With position light.

[linked image]

Wish I knew if Spitten' Maggie on Oahu was an E or E-1. Or, perhaps it is a D. Oh well.

[linked image]



Photobucket

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login RacerRich)
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91.125.83.46

Are you intending to model this aircraft?

April 25 2012, 8:48 AM 

-if so- what details do you need to be more sure about?
From the S.S. on the P-40, it would seem the main difference is the incorporation of extra bomb racks on the wings to enable the "triplet" bomb loadout. If it's an 'E, then you delete the rack details under the rack detail with the modelling weapon of your choice.

One detail I noticed on the crash aircraft, and have subsequently noticed on a few other early aircraft- is the vertical tubular hole on the rear spine- what exactly is this for?

(Note- I currently feel quite bad about even linking to a picture of the P-40, as If Terry is correct, then I need a period of adjustment to de-humanise things a bit.)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EnOhzjE0Vio/T5Zn8FuA63I/AAAAAAAAALU/wPyV01nmOFE/s800/Obraz%2520161.jpg

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

very simply is it an A-3 or an E-1/A-4.

April 25 2012, 9:04 AM 

What is the issue of the bomb racks?

Photobucket

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login RacerRich)
HyperScale Forums
91.125.83.46

Oh Gawd! read your own post!!!

April 25 2012, 9:36 AM 

"
Wish I knew if Spitten' Maggie on Oahu was an E or E-1. " happy.gif

 
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(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

OMG..what are you talking about? nt

April 25 2012, 9:40 AM 



Photobucket

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login RacerRich)
HyperScale Forums
91.125.83.46

Now I really am worried

April 25 2012, 9:41 AM 

happy.gif

 
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(Login Les_J99)
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188.29.172.213

Hole in the spine.

April 25 2012, 9:19 AM 

"One detail I noticed on the crash aircraft, and have subsequently noticed on a few other early aircraft- is the vertical tubular hole on the rear spine- what exactly is this for?"

Don't know for sure as I'm not a P-40 nut but its in almost the same position as the flare launcher tube in Spitfires. It could be an RAF specific fitting, what other pictures have you seen it in?

 
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(Login RacerRich)
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91.125.83.46

I would have to do a bit of digging- Maybe on early RAF Mustangs too..

April 25 2012, 9:38 AM 

-sorry have to rush out now.

I actually wondered if it was some sort of fixing post to hold a pennant of some sort.. crazy I know!

 
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(Login finargil)
HyperScale Forums
200.16.99.230

I've seen some pictures of early Kittyhawks...

April 25 2012, 9:56 AM 

... in which the usual mast for the antennae is missing and the wire goes straight into the fuselage. The missing antennae leave a hole on the spine. Could be that? (without seeing the "Sahara Kittyhawk" picture, for I cannot see attached pictures here)
Fernando

 
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(Login Les_J99)
HyperScale Forums
188.29.172.213

Like I said.

April 25 2012, 10:04 AM 

I'm not that much of a P-40 fan.

From the pictures the hole looks to be about the same size and position as the flare chute in a Spit, but equally it could just as well be an opening for the aerial rigging.

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Hole in spine may have been for antenna wire. Insulator broke off? nt

April 25 2012, 9:27 AM 



Photobucket

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login DanaBellColors)
HyperScale Forums
173.79.160.151

Hi Rich...

April 25 2012, 11:37 AM 

The 1 June 1942 P-40E-1 Overhaul Manual notes that opening as the "Auto. Recog. Device Exit 87-67-607." Sounds like a flare port to me, but that's just a guess. (The ID light and antenna insulator show farther forward on the spine in this shot -https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#5734882631914220402 - as well as a few items I don't recognize.

Cheers,



Dana

 
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(Login H-87A-2CU)
HyperScale Forums
124.176.1.30

Phased out or not

May 2 2012, 8:18 AM 

Hi Steve

Bit tardy with the reply sorry about that. In Answer to you question on was the light phased out during the AL production or just stopped.

The formation light appears on AL230 being the last of the Batch, (Photo available from PRO in UK for reference and maybe the IWM online). I cannot confirm that the Light was or was not the Very early ET serial ranges as the earliest I have a photo of is ET245 however there is no lights.

Did further checking via sampling photos. The light appears on all the photos I checked of identified aircraft. Aircraft checked where, AK571 (first of the family), 575, 606, 658, 706, 825, 907, AL102, AL111, AL184, AL218, AL230 (last of the family).

Checked the E-1 (not just RAF, but also anything else identified by serial), none had the formation lights. Aircraft checked where, ET245, 434, 615, 789, 919, 1016 (stopped there).

Think we can conclude that the lights disappeared with the E-1CU models as per the refined texts on the P-40's.

Buz

 
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(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Thank you for the response. Interesting about the E-1 is that

May 2 2012, 9:19 AM 

according to Dean and Hagedorn (Curtiss Fighter Aircraft 1917-1948; A Photographic History) were built exclusively for the British, with British equipment, as block E-1 (Spec. 98-610-9A). Thus, it is quite likely that the British specifications called for the elimination of the position light.

What is also interesting is that from the production run od 1500 airframes, it seems everybody got some. The E-1s went to the Soviet Union, Netherlands, Brazil and Canada, with a few retained by the USAAF.

Be interesting to look at pictures of VVS, RCAF and Brazilian P-40E-1s.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login H-87A-2CU)
HyperScale Forums
124.176.24.105

P-40E-1

May 5 2012, 8:10 AM 

Hi Steve

Almost correct, they were built intended for exclusive use by the British, so therefore had some British Equipemnt in them. However when all said and done, Britain was the smallest user of the type between the big three (US, Russia and Britain).

Britain took just over 200, Russian took just over 700 of them, USAAF in all areas taking at least 380, with the remaining airframes shared between Brazil, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand and Canada. The airframes allocated to the Dutch were taken over by US, Australian and British forces.

The US forces being the second largest user, retained more than a few.....

Buz

 
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(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Considering the reference "over-spoke" on the British equiment,

May 5 2012, 9:14 AM 

did all the aircraft actually receive it? Was it actually not installed in all? Or, was it altered back to US controls after reallocation?

BTW, the few pictures I have of Brazilian P-40E-1s, in RAF camou, do not have the fuselage position light.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Dana Bell
(Login DanaBellColors)
HyperScale Forums
173.79.160.151

Nice catch, Buz!

April 25 2012, 11:16 AM 

I'd never before recognized that the Kittyhawk Is used the US-style flood lights. Very cool detail - I'll retain that for future use!

Cheers,



Dana

 
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Current Topic - Sahara H87 A3 Kitttyhawk,1of 540 direct British contract (last pre lend lease) oldest H87?
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