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Midway Aircraft Underside Color

June 22 2012 at 9:49 AM
  (Login devinj)
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from IP address 67.84.245.24

Having finished my Corsair,http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/message/1340122121/First+Post-+1-48+F4U-1+Corsair ,where I got to practice my Navy Blue color mixing, I'm ready to start my build of the Yorktown's (CV-5) aircraft, starting with the F4F-4, probably in the colors of Ens. Milton Tootle.

I've seen references to Non-Specular White and Light Gull Gray as the appropriate color for early war aircraft, but I know this changed, and I can't pin down what it was exactly at the time. I do know that VF-3 had brand new birds when they reported on board Yorktown prior to Midway.

Thanks for any help. And anyone interested in CV-5 should check out my new website dedicated to her:http://cv5yorktown.com/

-Devin

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

"White and Gray" was only for anti-sub work in the Atlantic. EDIT

June 22 2012, 10:01 AM 

The Wildcats would be in the same Blue-Gray / Lt. Gray Scheme.

Very nicely built model of the Corsair.

As a note, the vertical fin of a B-G/Lt G scheme would be the B-G, not Lt. Gray. As for your Corsair scheme, I'm confused as to the use of the Star and Bars without an outline and the odd demarcation of the Blue-Gray and Lt. Gray. The adoption of the bars was also done with the adoption of the red outline on June 28, 1943.

The issue was that the B-G faded badly and unevenly.

The question that i do not know is whether the red and white stripes on the rudder were removed. They continued into 1942.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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This message has been edited by modeldad from IP address 71.245.227.142 on Jun 22, 2012 11:15 AM


 
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(Login bebrown1)
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98.69.160.165

Rudder stripes

June 22 2012, 10:54 AM 

FWIW, I just finished reading "The First Team" and it says Enterprise & Hornet aircraft painters spent 10 May 1942 painting over the rudder stripes and national insignia meatballs "in conformance to a new directive from CinCPac." Would it be safe to assume Yorktown's air group did it on or about the same day?

Ben

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Based on the pictures I posted below, yes. No stripes or red center to the star.

June 22 2012, 10:57 AM 

But note the dark of the fresh paint on the rudder.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login P47Hal)
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24.60.44.89

many photos of the period

June 22 2012, 11:10 AM 

reveal "Ghost" stripes on the rudders and a pale pink area in the stars, where the red disc was overpainted. Hal

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Guess much depended on the quality of the workmanship of the painter.

June 22 2012, 11:17 AM 

also, on fabric control surfaces, one would want to sue least amount of paint so as not to affect weight and balance

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login devinj)
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67.84.245.24

My question about the painting out of the red stripes and dots

June 22 2012, 11:46 AM 

I know that Enterprise and Hornet had their F4F-4's during the red stripe and dot era, so showing phantoms of those from overpainting is logical. With Yorktown, though, she never had F4F-4s in that scheme, as she returned from Coral Sea with her F4F-3's.

I wonder if her new, factory fresh, F4F-4s would have this paint ghosting, or if they came from the factory with the correct no-red markings? I'm leaning towards not showing any on this build, as even if they did have those red markings applied at the factory, they would have been repainted at one of the shore stations along the way, and probably gotten better paint coverage.

 
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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

White bars

June 22 2012, 11:42 AM 

The picture of "Marine's Dream" crashed in the Osprey Corsair Aces book clearly shows the borderless bars. It was shown in the book as a field-applied 3-color scheme, so the lighter color on the side and fin would be NS blue-gray.

There are also several pictures of Pacific aircraft with the borderless bars; several P-40's in the 49th FG, P-38's in the 475th FG, and even some B-25's in the 345th BG, among others.

This is a perfect example of what is said on this board, among others, all the time - it took a while for official policy to reach units scattered all over the world, and sometimes, the front line units did it their own way in the interim, whatever the date on the order.

Rich

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Not so sure, as the wing marking appears to have it.

June 22 2012, 11:59 AM 

But perhaps they had not gotten around to painting them on, or not enough red paint. Not a two part order, as other aircraft in the unit seem to have complied.

It appears to be a badly faded Blue-Gray over Lt. Gray. Don't care what the caption says. Although it could be poor photo quality and badly applied paint.

Lot of things were not done or done, because of the local situation.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

Could be the print, but I don't see the wing outline...

June 22 2012, 12:30 PM 

I can't see the outline in the one picture I have right now, but it could be the lighting, or my old eyes. Still, as my post above shows, the "unbordered" star and bar was used by several units in the SWPA for a time before the borders were added. The picture at the top of Page 53 shows another unbordered insignia.

As I stated below, I could be wrong about the 3-color; the light in this picture isn't the best.

Rich

 
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(Login ppalmer)
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75.13.38.201

White bars

June 22 2012, 12:27 PM 

I've been doing some research for an early PTO Corsair build. There are lots of photos out there of Marine and Navy F4U-1A and F4U-1C AC with borderless white bars on both BG/G and tri-color paint jobs. Just reinforcing the "not everyone got the memo" theory.


    
This message has been edited by ppalmer from IP address 75.13.38.201 on Jun 22, 2012 12:50 PM


 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Could be availability of red paint. Unless the memo got torn in half.

June 22 2012, 12:57 PM 

ALNAV 12, Dispatch 282005, June 28, 1943.

Then again, given picture quality, the red may not show up well.

See the Official Monogram by Elliott Vol 3 page 70-73.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

COLOR photos in "Warpath Across the Pacific"

June 22 2012, 2:50 PM 

Pages 197, 199, & 202, clearly show unbordered star & bars. Clear B & W photos in "Attack & Conquer" (such as pp. 215, 233) show it on P-40N's, apparently at the same time that others show the surrounds. Also, "No. 590", on pp. 46-47 of the Osprey Corsair book clearly does not show the border. Other photos may not be clear enough to be sure, but there is no question that it happened, in several units at the same time.

Rich

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

More inclined to believe it was absence of red paint,

June 22 2012, 2:58 PM 

white and blue would be available for national marking repaint. But red was a radical change. Only source of red in many places would have been RAF units.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

Or perhaps initial reluctance to use red in the Pacific...

June 22 2012, 3:13 PM 

After they'd already removed the red dots & tail stripes earlier. I don't have the details, but perhaps the initial idea was to more clearly differentiate the insignia; may have even started at unit or 5th AF level, and the surrounds came after (no proof, just a possibility). Still, it's interesting that the borderless bars appeared at several units simultaneously. Obviously, some units did eventually paint the red surround, but it didn't last long.

Rich

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Could well be a case of onece burned, twice shy. nt

June 22 2012, 4:53 PM 



Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Anonymous
(Login do-bee)
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99.59.62.198

P-47s also had borderless star and bar....I seem to recall....

June 22 2012, 6:05 PM 

that the bar came BEFORE the red surround that was short lived, (about 5 months?) before being changed to blue surround. Or did I just make all this up? Urban myth? But I do remember seeing pics of Corsairs and P-47s with bar with no surround.

Old Digger Pilot

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Picture

June 22 2012, 10:11 AM 

Looks like the stripes painted out, but national marking in 6 positions.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/448106-3/wildcat-yorktown

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/midway/mid-1h3.htm

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=2048

[linked image]

[linked image]

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login finargil)
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200.16.99.231

It is "Light Gray"...

June 22 2012, 10:21 AM 

... in the two colour scheme, "Blue Gray" on top, "Light Gray" on bottom surfaces. I think its denomination is "M-485".
Fernando

EDIT: it is "M-495". "M-485" is Blue Gray.


    
This message has been edited by finargil from IP address 200.16.99.231 on Jun 22, 2012 3:02 PM


 
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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

Blue-gray over Lt. Gray, no tail stripes

June 22 2012, 11:02 AM 

The stripes were gone by Midway. For the definitive book on the Navy's air war during that period, you should try to find the book "The First Team" by John B. Lundstrom (I might know where to get you an inexpensive copy of the paperback).

Your Corsair is very well done, but it would have had a field-applied 3-color scheme applied onto the original blue-gray over lt. gray. The light gray was not applied that far up the fuselage sides, or on the vertical stabilizer. They should be blue-gray. The dark blue was painted on the upper wings and top of the fuselage.

Rich

 
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(Login pnmoss)
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24.62.224.152

On what do you base your statement that

June 22 2012, 11:52 AM 

there should have been dark (Sea?) blue on the wing and fuselage tops?

Pip Moss

 
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(Login Pete352)
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63.227.47.4

I could be wrong about that, but...

June 22 2012, 12:14 PM 

I may have other pictures buried elsewhere right now, but there's a picture of Olander's plane being salvaged on Page 52 of the Osprey "Corsair Aces" book. The colors are pretty faded, but the fuselage shows a faint line along the area ahead of the windscreen, and the remains of the vertical fin looks lighter than the adjacent fuselage at the tail (although this may be shadow). The picture beneath it shows another field-applied scheme, where the difference between the blue and BG is just as faint, although it's obvious. Interestingly, the color profile of "Marine's Dream" looks like straight BG/G, but the description mentions a "field-applied scheme". Osprey's profiles, especially in the early Aces series, have justifiably been questioned. Obviously, at some time in its existence (before the red-haired, cigar-chewing crew chief got to it happy.gif), the plane would have been straight BG/G, so maybe both are correct.

Rich

 
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(Login wymanv)
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184.167.56.19

It would be on the repaint

June 22 2012, 8:26 PM 

Some of the early Corsairs went out with blue gray/light gray in the beginning, and on the repaint to 'tri-color', instead of using intermediate blue they just left the blue gray on it and painted around. I think the issue (and I REALLY hate to say as it's a beautiful build) is the light gray on the model goes up the fuselage side and on the vertical tail, and in the BG/LG scheme it shouldn't.

Ken

tbdsmall.jpg

 
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David Hansen
(Login Falcon50EX)
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64.134.128.82

a couple of suggestions

June 22 2012, 11:28 AM 

Hi Devin,

When i built my Tamiya F4F-4, i used MM Blue Gray (approximately FS 35189) on top and i used MM Light Gull Gray 36440 for the undersides. After putting on the 36440 Gull Gray i felt that straight from the bottle it looked too dark, and i knew it would be even darker once the gloss coat went on over it.

So, i went back and re-sprayed MM Light Aircraft gray, FS 36495 over the Light Gull gray and the contrast (accounting for gloss coats and scale effect) looked much better.

The other option i would suggest is mix MM Light Gull Gray with Insignia White. Try an experiment of mixing 2 parts Gull Gray to 1 part Flat White, and then mix 1 part Gull Gray and 1 part Flat White. Compare the colours to the blue gray and go with the one you think looks best.

HTH,

david

PS FS 36440 , Light Gull Gray is an FS equivalent to ANA 602 (or was it 620?), Light aircraft gray, but its a very poor match.

d-paint

 
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(Login pnmoss)
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24.62.224.152

Here we go again

June 22 2012, 1:37 PM 

IMHO, based on a couple of excellent period color photographs found in the 2nd volume of the Monogram U.S. Navy & Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide, 36495 is significantly lighter than the actual color, which was neither Light Gray 602 nor Gull Gray 620 (see especially the photo of an F4U-1 on page 33). Jim Lansdale has given 36440 as the closest (but not exact) FS approximation, but there seems to be widespread agreement that 36440 is a warmer gray than the actual color. IMHO the best way to get close to the actual color is to mix white and black until it's about the same darkness as 36440.

Pip Moss

 
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(Login finargil)
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200.16.99.231

True. It's neither one

June 22 2012, 3:02 PM 

"Light Gray" was coded "M-495"; its mate, "Blue Gray", was "M-485".
My own personal impression is that M-495 is a bit darker and just a bit warmer than 36440, and of course much more than 36495. Does "Widespread Doctrine" hold it was a colder/more neutral grey?
Fernando

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

No Neutral Gray! Extension of light Neutrality Gray. Very light

June 22 2012, 4:51 PM 

[linked image]

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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(Login finargil)
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200.16.99.231

'Dad, we are too old to confuse good ol' Neutral Gray

June 22 2012, 5:35 PM 

What I said was "... a more neutral grey.", as one without brownish, greenish or bluish tint, i.e., made exclusively from White and Black. That's a "neutral" grey.
FErnando

 
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(Login wymanv)
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184.167.56.19

That's it

June 22 2012, 8:48 PM 

36440, as is, has a yellow tint to it. Light gray used on early war USN stuff is pretty much a mix of only black & white without toners.

And to put my $.02 into the discussion, Intermediate Blue (FS 35164) as sold by Model Master is NOT Blue Gray, or even quite close in depicting a faded aircraft. 35164 is a bright and rather vibrant blue and USN Blue Gray is a subdued blue. Fading would make it lighter but not brighter, unless chalking was severe. Model Master's Blue Gray is part of their RAF/FAA line and isn't the USN color either, but it does look better as a faded Blue Gray than Intermediate Blue does. I was actually told once (and never got it confirmed) that the 1940 issue USN Blue Gray was a mix of Insignia Blue and the Light Gray that predated the BG/LG scheme. The Intermediate Blue thing was started by Monogram in the 80s, when Model Master paints came onto the market and all their early WW II USN kits recommended it (along with 36440) on the instruction sheet.

All this is why I'm dumping Model Master for WEM Colourcoats. They did the research, made up the right colors and IMHO set the benchmark for USN colors. Although I still like MM's Glossy Sea Blue, however.

Ken

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(Login devinj)
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67.84.245.24

Thanks, everyone!

June 22 2012, 11:56 AM 

I really appreciate the responses. I'll check out those light gray FS numbers you all have called out, and I'll definitely be cutting them with some white to fade it out a bit.

I have "The First Team" and several other Wildcat books, so I'm pretty well versed on when stripes came and went, etc., it's just always been that gray color that's eluded me!

As far as the color scheme on my Corsair, I was sure there would be accuracy issues with it. I have two different decals sheets, and three different books, all show color profiles of that aircraft, and every last one of them is different! I went with what I liked the most, maybe not the best way to go about it, but I'm happy with the result.

Thanks everyone!

 
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(Login modeldad)
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71.245.227.142

Here is a good example of fresh Blue-Gray over Lt. Gray.

June 22 2012, 4:52 PM 

[linked image]

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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(Login devinj)
HyperScale Forums
67.84.245.24

Oh, very nice!

June 22 2012, 6:02 PM 

I see what everyone means about it being a "cooler" color than 36440. A photo like that is probably where I got the idea in my head that it may have been just Insignia White and not a gray. I already have some 36440 here at home, so I'll mix up some black and white to get a like shade and see how that looks on my test hulk.

Thanks again!

 
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