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Midway Aircraft Underside Color

June 22 2012 at 9:49 AM
Devin Poore  (Login devinj)
HyperScale Forums
from IP address 67.84.245.24

Having finished my Corsair,http://www.network54.com/Forum/47751/message/1340122121/First+Post-+1-48+F4U-1+Corsair ,where I got to practice my Navy Blue color mixing, I'm ready to start my build of the Yorktown's (CV-5) aircraft, starting with the F4F-4, probably in the colors of Ens. Milton Tootle.

I've seen references to Non-Specular White and Light Gull Gray as the appropriate color for early war aircraft, but I know this changed, and I can't pin down what it was exactly at the time. I do know that VF-3 had brand new birds when they reported on board Yorktown prior to Midway.

Thanks for any help. And anyone interested in CV-5 should check out my new website dedicated to her:http://cv5yorktown.com/

-Devin

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

"White and Gray" was only for anti-sub work in the Atlantic. EDIT

June 22 2012, 10:01 AM 

The Wildcats would be in the same Blue-Gray / Lt. Gray Scheme.

Very nicely built model of the Corsair.

As a note, the vertical fin of a B-G/Lt G scheme would be the B-G, not Lt. Gray. As for your Corsair scheme, I'm confused as to the use of the Star and Bars without an outline and the odd demarcation of the Blue-Gray and Lt. Gray. The adoption of the bars was also done with the adoption of the red outline on June 28, 1943.

The issue was that the B-G faded badly and unevenly.

The question that i do not know is whether the red and white stripes on the rudder were removed. They continued into 1942.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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This message has been edited by modeldad from IP address 71.245.227.142 on Jun 22, 2012 11:15 AM


 
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Ben Brown
(Login bebrown1)
HyperScale Forums
98.69.160.165

Rudder stripes

June 22 2012, 10:54 AM 

FWIW, I just finished reading "The First Team" and it says Enterprise & Hornet aircraft painters spent 10 May 1942 painting over the rudder stripes and national insignia meatballs "in conformance to a new directive from CinCPac." Would it be safe to assume Yorktown's air group did it on or about the same day?

Ben

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Based on the pictures I posted below, yes. No stripes or red center to the star.

June 22 2012, 10:57 AM 

But note the dark of the fresh paint on the rudder.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



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Hal Marshman Sr
(Login P47Hal)
HyperScale Forums
24.60.44.89

many photos of the period

June 22 2012, 11:10 AM 

reveal "Ghost" stripes on the rudders and a pale pink area in the stars, where the red disc was overpainted. Hal

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Guess much depended on the quality of the workmanship of the painter.

June 22 2012, 11:17 AM 

also, on fabric control surfaces, one would want to sue least amount of paint so as not to affect weight and balance

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Devin Poore
(Login devinj)
HyperScale Forums
67.84.245.24

My question about the painting out of the red stripes and dots

June 22 2012, 11:46 AM 

I know that Enterprise and Hornet had their F4F-4's during the red stripe and dot era, so showing phantoms of those from overpainting is logical. With Yorktown, though, she never had F4F-4s in that scheme, as she returned from Coral Sea with her F4F-3's.

I wonder if her new, factory fresh, F4F-4s would have this paint ghosting, or if they came from the factory with the correct no-red markings? I'm leaning towards not showing any on this build, as even if they did have those red markings applied at the factory, they would have been repainted at one of the shore stations along the way, and probably gotten better paint coverage.

 
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Rich Hicks
(Login Pete352)
HyperScale Forums
63.227.47.4

White bars

June 22 2012, 11:42 AM 

The picture of "Marine's Dream" crashed in the Osprey Corsair Aces book clearly shows the borderless bars. It was shown in the book as a field-applied 3-color scheme, so the lighter color on the side and fin would be NS blue-gray.

There are also several pictures of Pacific aircraft with the borderless bars; several P-40's in the 49th FG, P-38's in the 475th FG, and even some B-25's in the 345th BG, among others.

This is a perfect example of what is said on this board, among others, all the time - it took a while for official policy to reach units scattered all over the world, and sometimes, the front line units did it their own way in the interim, whatever the date on the order.

Rich

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Not so sure, as the wing marking appears to have it.

June 22 2012, 11:59 AM 

But perhaps they had not gotten around to painting them on, or not enough red paint. Not a two part order, as other aircraft in the unit seem to have complied.

It appears to be a badly faded Blue-Gray over Lt. Gray. Don't care what the caption says. Although it could be poor photo quality and badly applied paint.

Lot of things were not done or done, because of the local situation.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Rich Hicks
(Login Pete352)
HyperScale Forums
63.227.47.4

Could be the print, but I don't see the wing outline...

June 22 2012, 12:30 PM 

I can't see the outline in the one picture I have right now, but it could be the lighting, or my old eyes. Still, as my post above shows, the "unbordered" star and bar was used by several units in the SWPA for a time before the borders were added. The picture at the top of Page 53 shows another unbordered insignia.

As I stated below, I could be wrong about the 3-color; the light in this picture isn't the best.

Rich

 
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Phil Palmer
(Login ppalmer)
HyperScale Forums
75.13.38.201

White bars

June 22 2012, 12:27 PM 

I've been doing some research for an early PTO Corsair build. There are lots of photos out there of Marine and Navy F4U-1A and F4U-1C AC with borderless white bars on both BG/G and tri-color paint jobs. Just reinforcing the "not everyone got the memo" theory.


    
This message has been edited by ppalmer from IP address 75.13.38.201 on Jun 22, 2012 12:50 PM


 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Could be availability of red paint. Unless the memo got torn in half.

June 22 2012, 12:57 PM 

ALNAV 12, Dispatch 282005, June 28, 1943.

Then again, given picture quality, the red may not show up well.

See the Official Monogram by Elliott Vol 3 page 70-73.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Rich Hicks
(Login Pete352)
HyperScale Forums
63.227.47.4

COLOR photos in "Warpath Across the Pacific"

June 22 2012, 2:50 PM 

Pages 197, 199, & 202, clearly show unbordered star & bars. Clear B & W photos in "Attack & Conquer" (such as pp. 215, 233) show it on P-40N's, apparently at the same time that others show the surrounds. Also, "No. 590", on pp. 46-47 of the Osprey Corsair book clearly does not show the border. Other photos may not be clear enough to be sure, but there is no question that it happened, in several units at the same time.

Rich

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

More inclined to believe it was absence of red paint,

June 22 2012, 2:58 PM 

white and blue would be available for national marking repaint. But red was a radical change. Only source of red in many places would have been RAF units.

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Rich Hicks
(Login Pete352)
HyperScale Forums
63.227.47.4

Or perhaps initial reluctance to use red in the Pacific...

June 22 2012, 3:13 PM 

After they'd already removed the red dots & tail stripes earlier. I don't have the details, but perhaps the initial idea was to more clearly differentiate the insignia; may have even started at unit or 5th AF level, and the surrounds came after (no proof, just a possibility). Still, it's interesting that the borderless bars appeared at several units simultaneously. Obviously, some units did eventually paint the red surround, but it didn't last long.

Rich

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Could well be a case of onece burned, twice shy. nt

June 22 2012, 4:53 PM 



Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Anonymous
(Login do-bee)
HyperScale Forums
99.59.62.198

P-47s also had borderless star and bar....I seem to recall....

June 22 2012, 6:05 PM 

that the bar came BEFORE the red surround that was short lived, (about 5 months?) before being changed to blue surround. Or did I just make all this up? Urban myth? But I do remember seeing pics of Corsairs and P-47s with bar with no surround.

Old Digger Pilot

 
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Steven Modeldad Eisenman
(Login modeldad)
HyperScale Forums
71.245.227.142

Picture

June 22 2012, 10:11 AM 

Looks like the stripes painted out, but national marking in 6 positions.

http://www.ww2incolor.com/d/448106-3/wildcat-yorktown

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/events/wwii-pac/midway/mid-1h3.htm

http://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=2048

[linked image]

[linked image]

Photobucket [linked image]

There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.

Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]



BUY THIS BOOK
http://tinyurl.com/Ididntseeitcoming

 
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Fernando Rolandelli
(Login finargil)
HyperScale Forums
200.16.99.231

It is "Light Gray"...

June 22 2012, 10:21 AM 

... in the two colour scheme, "Blue Gray" on top, "Light Gray" on bottom surfaces. I think its denomination is "M-485".
Fernando

EDIT: it is "M-495". "M-485" is Blue Gray.


    
This message has been edited by finargil from IP address 200.16.99.231 on Jun 22, 2012 3:02 PM


 
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Rich Hicks
(Login Pete352)
HyperScale Forums
63.227.47.4

Blue-gray over Lt. Gray, no tail stripes

June 22 2012, 11:02 AM 

The stripes were gone by Midway. For the definitive book on the Navy's air war during that period, you should try to find the book "The First Team" by John B. Lundstrom (I might know where to get you an inexpensive copy of the paperback).

Your Corsair is very well done, but it would have had a field-applied 3-color scheme applied onto the original blue-gray over lt. gray. The light gray was not applied that far up the fuselage sides, or on the vertical stabilizer. They should be blue-gray. The dark blue was painted on the upper wings and top of the fuselage.

Rich

 
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