We stole the eagle from the Air Force, the anchor from the Navy, and the rope from the Army.
On the seventh day while God rested, we overran his perimeter, stole the globe, and we've been running the whole show ever since.
Semper Fi, Don
This message has been edited by shogun66 from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Aug 11, 2012 8:23 PM
Alex Tula (Login AlexTSeattle) HyperScale Forums 126.96.36.199
Pretty much it was an "east coast" turn
August 12 2012, 12:58 AM
Next year we get Colorado. But it's getting harder and harder to get chapters to bid, particularly west of the Mississippi. Just not enough people/chapters. Personally, I'm excited about Virginia, lots of neat stuff on that side of the continent I've never seen, living as I do on the "left" coast
There is no such thing as an unbuildable kit, just some kits one may consider not worth building.
Ive realized that most people ... tend not to be direct when they feel something is shoddy because they want to be liked, "which is actually a vain trait".
[Walter Isaacson's (author of Steve Jobs) recounting of his interview with Jony Ive, Chief Designer at Apple @ page p. 461]
...but this actually puts it back on track. 2013 is supposed to be a west-track show, and technically Denver is in the west portion (region 10 is considered in the west). So 2014 would have been east, and it will be. Thus, bidding for 2015 next year will (in theory) favor the central area.
In my opinion, VA is a bad choice for three reasons.
1. You just had it in Florida, so it will go from East Coast to CO and then back to the East Coast.
2. VA just had it not too long ago.
3. Once again, they have disregarded the school schedule and have it planned right when a large number of central states start their school years. IPMS has heard the arguments about moving it up into July, but obviously they have paid no attention to it. St. Louis would have been a great choice. Middle of the country and scheduled for the end of July.
I'm beginning to wonder about the leadership of IPMS. Even the Colorado choice was interesting. It's an hour away from a major city, although the venue will be very nice. Oh well. Looks like I'll have to wait awhile to go to Nats again.
This message has been edited by Darren_Roberts from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Aug 11, 2012 11:07 PM
Jeff Adair (Login Jeff8600) HyperScale Forums 184.108.40.206
August 11 2012, 11:31 PM
Va Beach in '08 was my first time to attend the Nats and I was floored by the admission just to get in! I didn't enter anything. I think Chattanooga or Columbia would have been better choices, Hell give some one else a chance at it!
Why not move the Nationals to June or July so that family vacations could be planed around it?
Thanks IPMS but no thanks! I'll stick with AMPS!
uh Darren, this has nothing to do w/ the leadership. It's you & your clubs.
August 11 2012, 11:32 PM
Don't step up to do the work in your region, you don't get the event if you don't do it.
The national board can't force you and your club to step up. Only you can do that. Let us know when you're ready to get it done. 2015 beckons.
BTW, Va Beach is a great place for this event-not a bad choice for any reason except for your personal convenience (and mine).
Ah,,,guy...Darrens club hosted 2007...plus there there were 4 clubs bidding this year
August 12 2012, 12:19 AM
Which is the most I can remember in the past decade. This decision is all on the Eboards shoulders....my opinion is VB was choosen because they should have the capital needed to front said event....given they have hosted and made the profits needed to have that money for bills before said event. IPMS/USA doesn't front clubs enough to cover costs for a modern 21st century show...I know...I've done that "work" you mention researching the feasibility of my own local hosting said event.
I wish VB well, speaking as someone who attended 2008 I doubt I make a return trip...of the 6 Nats I've attended the past 12 years it ranks at the bottom for Nats I've enjoyed for reasons the host club already knows from 2008....
This message has been edited by 7776618 from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Aug 12, 2012 12:20 AM
have something to do with the E board. When you have 3 clubs offering to host. And because someone don't like the clubs or they have never hosted before, they ask VA and St. Lou to put a bid in?????? Wow this is another reason why I'm not a big fan of IPMS. I go to the NAT's and local show to see great models and friends. I only join when i want to enter a show (NAT). And as for our club to "step up" it did and had one of the most successful shows ( the numbers will speak for themselves ). I had a great time in Orlando, I may not agree with all their decisions on location, dates, but at least it was bid on and chosen fairly. Will I go to Tidewater? probably, cause i enjoy going. I do wish them great success, but im sick of the bias crap that happens with in the clicks of the E board. Its politics as usual. Now, I know Ill hear "well why don't you become a member of the E board and change things", REALLY. Nobody knows me well enough to be elected, I could run but because im not a well known figure at shows (NATs) I would not get the first vote. All clicks sux.
First, the board can only choose from the bids they get. The guys who wonder when they will get a convention near them will only get one when a chapter in their area bids. It's as simple as that. While I believe the Eboard would love to get back to the east, central, west rotation, the reality is that they haven't been able to get enough folks to bid in a "region" to make that rotation work for quite a while.
As for the timing, we are ALL aware that school is starting earlier and earlier almost everywhere. I'm the guy who was the potential Convention Chair for the Chattanooga bid this time around. We talked to our convention center in March of this year. About 28 months before the potential event. July was already booked. And another hitch is the almighty dollar. July is "peak" season almost everywhere. Cross over to August, and you hit what they call the shoulder season. The summer is winding down and the fall season hasn't kicked in yet. Not only is the meeting space cheaper, but the hotel rooms are cheaper. How many complaints do you hear about $125 rooms. That's for August. Try $150 for July.
It's not a matter of IPMS not listening (and trust me, I've had my issues with IPMS not listening and not being willing to consider change) in this case. They are limited to what the bidding clubs can schedule and afford.
I get it that Hampton Roads will make several east coast venues in a short time. I get it that this will make something like 4 conventions since '96 or '98. I get it that the last week in July would be nice. I get it that $75 hotel rooms would be nice, and that $15 dinners would be great. But the reality is that it just isn't possible to check all the boxes.
Chattanooga will bid again in the next year or two, and we'll do the best we can to offer an affordable convention and a convenient schedule. But we'll be limited by outside influences that are well outside of our control.
Oh, and by the way. There were four of us bidding for the 2014 show. The other three groups put great bids in, and I don't envy the board for having to decide which one to go with. I think we made it really tough for them. In the end, they went with what they felt was best, and I have no doubt at all that the boys in the Tidewater club will put on a FANTASTIC show. I'm looking forward to it!
Alex Tula (Login AlexTSeattle) HyperScale Forums 18.104.22.168
Your comments are spot on!
August 12 2012, 1:18 AM
I personally was rooting for Tennessee, but I have to assume that the E Board has two brain cells that speak to each other. Phoenix had two conventions in close succession because NOBODY BID for it the second time. It's truly getting tougher and tougher. Not just financially, but the manpower needed to make it succeed. I'm here in Orlando, and they were begging for help the whole time, even after the convention started. Fewer people seem to be willing to put their time where their mouth is.
And on the subject of families, here we are in the land of mutant mice and ducks, but I have seen not that much evidence that attendees brought their families, I know none of the folks from Seattle did.
You no doubt saw the bids, but few if any of the carpers on this web board have. It takes a titanic amount of effort to pull off a convention of the kind we like to have.
Actually, the last time Phoenix hosted (2010, wow my brain gets addled after a few long nights in Mickey's house!), there was another bid. Portland OR was the venue, and for reasons unknown (to me at least) Phoenix was awarded the convention. Now I enjoyed the convention immensely, I was really pulling for Portland for a variety of reasons.
And secondly, I happen to know for a FACT that there were family members from Seattle in attendance. My folks flew in from Vashon Island for the week to take advantage of the room rate and we made it a bit of a family gathering.
I agree Mike! As one of the other bidders I too feel each had very strong bids and that it was a very hard decision! Same was true for us and our bid,August is the least expensive summer month by far to get a venue(25% off the cost just for having it in August) and reasonable room costs and that is likely not to change. Fortunately here they have passed a law that school can't start before the 3rd Monday in August but that only helps us.
The Eboard was very clear that the regional rotation is dead for the time being due to lack of bidders from many areas. So unless someone from the west coast steps up and bids there are no options for those out there.The east coast seems to have more chapters willing to bid so that is why it keeps coming back. This year is a great example as 3 were eastern locations. They can only choose from the ones that bid.
The three clubs in SC that joined together on this bid will bid again in the future but unless things change with the venue and hotel rates the dates will be the first full week in August. Like you said, outside our control.
You all had a great bid and I hope you are selected one day as it would be a good time.
Any day above ground is a good one!!!
If anything in the above post offends you, I suggest you grow a thicker skin!!!
I like the way the UK does it...Telford every year
August 12 2012, 8:56 AM
Obviously, the US is a much bigger country, but it does lend itself to eliminating the ending the annual controversy as to where it's going to be. Plus, you know the product is going to be more consistent. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the US Nats was held in a place like Chicago or St. Louis every year. They are centrally located, and relatively easy to get to. When I see how many continental Europeans and even Americans who attend at Telford, it illustrates to me that distances can be overcome.
Brian Whitworth (Login metromanbw) HyperScale Forums 22.214.171.124
pick one place for good
August 12 2012, 1:14 PM
Indy, Columbus, St. Louis, Chicago - one of those and be done with rotations - you'll always know where it will be. Darrens coments about school schedules is very important - and it makes no sense to not allow June into the picture. Yeah yeah I know about only getting to choose from what bidders are in the hunt.
Terry has said:
When I see how many continental Europeans and even Americans who attend at Telford, it illustrates to me that distances can be overcome.
You are right, we welcome people from all over the world to Telford which is what helps to make it such a great show. But I am afraid that you are not going to overcome the distances world wide while it takes place in July/August. The air fares are at their peak at that time and I could not find a flight this year for less than around £750. When Telford comes around they are down to nearer £500 or less which I would suggest is one of the reasons we get people from as far away as Australia plus lots from the USA. November, which is when Telford is held, is much cheaper for hotels as well.
Seems this is really another of those decisions by committee. My own view is that it should be a convention, show and contest for plastic scale modelers. Period. Not a vacation for the family's recreation possibilities while dad or mom is off playing with models and other modelers. If there are non-convention activities for the non-modelers, then fine, but that isn't the purpose of a Nationals.
Find a way to hold it in a decent, roomy, well-lit space with plenty of lecture rooms and a decent vendor area that won't be quashed by unions wanting to go home as early as possible. This should be in the non-tourist season, like September, in a place that doesn't live and die by the tourist trade, like maybe Des Moines or Salt Lake City, or Colorado Springs, so the cost of putting it on, and for the attendees to stay and eat is reasonable as well. Once found, keep that same venue from year to year.
Create a standing IPMS working group with a few paid members to organize, manage and be responsible for running the event with a mandate for constant improvement and consistency year to year.
Get qualified volunteers (those willing to work and support the rules and procedures), pay their room and board, give them special T-shirts and exclusive access to the vendor area two hours before anyone else gets in.
Big hotels can provide space for the contests and vendor areas, rooms on site and meals, but they also are expensive, saddled by union rules, and the food (not to mention that main modelers' nutritional staple, beer) is over priced and not so hot. I think convention facilities, fairgrounds, etc. would be preferable.
Until this changes from what is essentially a local committee show on steroids, it's always going to be yet another round of re-inventing the wheel. Probably too harsh, but not a bad analogy.
Given a show outside the main tourist and travel season, I think transportation costs would not be a significant factor. If I am wanting to go to the Nationals, which is kind of like the World Series of modeling, I am not going to care so much if I have to fly from coast to coast rather than merely half way. Compared to what I would be committing to spend for lodging, ground transport, food and in the vendor room, another few bucks in air fare is not that significant. This would be even more true if I knew the show and convention would be smooth, well run and in a pleasant venue.
Interesting...I was talking with an individual in Orlando and she, yes a woman, stated that the national convention should go back to being what it was in the past. That being four days of eating pizza, drinking beer and talking models with your buddies....leaving the family at home. This isn't a family thing...it's for us model geeks...a whopping four days out of the year.
I agree, a centralized locale would be ideal. Not sure why it isn't done... Wonderfest is held every year in the same place at roughly the same time every year (Louisville KY)and the attendance it excellent at this...Who knows, we get enough voices and hands raised, maybe it will happen. "Q"
Seriously. How many of us have families left, anyway?
August 13 2012, 9:43 AM
When I go to model shows, all I see is old guys! The Street Rod Nats held here in Louisville last week was they same way - all old guys, many of which were buzzing around the fairgrounds in Hoverounds!
Look at what "Comic Con" has become out in San Diego, it's a huge nerd fest and it's grown like that because it is in the same place every year and I imagine the same group of folks take care of organizing it and do it right...no reinventing the wheel each time.
Yes, pick a place, set a time of year other than summer and make it a Mecca for model geeks.
Let's face it, my wife and kids (kid now really, got the 13 y/o to deal with, the 19 y/o pretty much does his own thing) aren't going to take a trip to a place so dad can go to a "model thing". That kind of thinking is just dumb. Even if they did, it'd be a huge pain in the a$$;
"OK, so, we'll drop you off at the "model thing" and come pick you up in 2 hours and then we'll head to the water park"
Then the whole time I'm at the water park guess where I'm really gonna want to be?
Make it in the fall, off peak. Ya wanna go? Take time off from work, what's it gonna be, two days at most? If you're a teacher, there's a metric a$$ ton of subs ready to fill in a couple of days.
There's certainly precedent for holding a national convention
August 13 2012, 9:01 AM
in the same spot year after year. Many national organizations hold their annual conventions in the same place year after year.
Heck, here in Louisville last week the NSRA held the 43rd annual Street Rod Nationals. More than 11,000 drove their street rods, from all over the country, to Louisville.
I agree with your points. I say hold it in Vegas every year. Cheap airfares, cheap hotel rooms, and plenty to do, including Nellis, Pima, etc. Or Chicago. Some people love working on conventions, so get volunteers and pay their way. Probably have plenty of takers.
This gets discussed every year, but will never change as long as clubs keep volunteering to reinvent the wheel and host it in a different venue each year.
First, one location will not be convenient for many folks. The comparison to hot rod shows and Comic Con are not fair. We build delicate models that are easily damaged (this years humor in modeling winner was pretty classic. It was a destroyed aircraft model and the title was "Thanks TSA") and generally difficult to fly with. I've flown to two conventions in the last 8 years, and while my models have made it both ways, both times without damage, it can be a stressful experience. It also limits what models I can take. In a worst case scenario, which one has to plan for, what ever is taken MUST fit under the seat in front of me. That would exclude the WnW Fe2b I'd like to take next year. All that means that only those who can drive to the convention can bring big models, or lots of models. I think it could detract in a big way from the quality of the show, at least in terms of how many and what kinds of models are on display.
Second, this whole "reinventing the wheel" concept is largely outdated. Does the host chapter have to come up to speed on things? Sure. But the most critical of them, the registration and model entry systems have now been standardized by IPMS/USA, and from what I witnessed this year after volunteering for both registration and model entry duty, the systems work well. Pre-registration particularly well. Walk up to the desk, tell them your name, get your entry packet and walk away. I only saw one gentleman with a significant problem, and that was that his pre-registration was completely lost, with not record even of payment. Having been there and done that, I can attest that it is VERY frustrating to be on his end of that situation, but I don't know that there is a fool proof system in existence for that.
In addition, the finances are now handled directly through the National Office. The host club is no longer expected to come up with significant up-front money, and is no longer on the hook for financial losses.
Third, the comparison to the UK's Scale Model World is spurious. You've got to remember that the UK is about the size of Louisiana. It's much easier to get from one end of the country to another by driving or train. Both of which have got to be much safer for scale models than flying. Heck, the travel time by road and ferry from Warsaw Poland to Telford is only about 20 hours.
Fourth, how would staff be paid for? Profits for the conventions from the last six years ranged from about $6K to $30K. Even $30K won't buy you much staff, or a good one.
And fifth, from a personal perspective, I like going to different areas for the Convention. It allows me to see different parts of the country, experience the slightly different flavor that the host chapters do put on the convention, and meet some folks I might not otherwise get to meet because they won't or can't travel to a single location that is a good distance away from them.
While a single venue would certainly offer some benefits, I believe it would also come at the cost of some significant downsides that need to be thought about before such a decision is made.
This message has been edited by maxfinn from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Aug 13, 2012 10:45 AM
"First, one location will not be convenient for many folks."
Different locations around the country are not convenient for many folks.
"All that means that only those who can drive to the convention can bring big models, or lots of models. I think it could detract in a big way from the quality of the show, at least in terms of how many and what kinds of models are on display. "
I don't think your argument holds up. Many people bring big and "delicate" models to conventions far enough away each year that they have to fly. That doesn't seem to preclude big and delicate models appearing in the past IPMS Nats. Proper packing will minimize damage whether in a car on a plane.
"Second, this whole "reinventing the wheel" concept is largely outdated."
My experiences at Nationals are different from yours. I remember volunteering to help in Anaheim because the people running it were going crazy and didn't have enough help, and their registration system (which had been used previously, allegedly) was having major issues. I think this is more of a common thread than not. There are no standard procedures, applications, documentation or a core of experienced individuals that act in concert to run a Nats. If there were, there would be many fewer problems. And, as a participant, I don't want three days of problems.
"Fourth, how would staff be paid for? Profits for the conventions from the last six years ranged from about $6K to $30K. Even $30K won't buy you much staff, or a good one."
Let's split the difference and say a median of $16K profit. That would buy room and board for about fifty people for three days - enough to manage a Nationals I think. And, further, get a dedicated venue, outside tourist seasonal rates, with a good discount for repeat business, and you'll cut expenses and increase profits.
"And fifth, from a personal perspective, I like going to different areas for the Convention."
That was my initial point - it's a plastic modeler's convention, attended by international modelers (witness the Grand Award this year), not a rotating vacation spot around the country. Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but if you want to go on vacation, then go on vacation and enjoy it. If you want to go to a well run, IPMS Nationals convention and show, then go there and forget about the scenery.
No disrespect intended, but unless someone pushes for serious change, it will be the same old new, rotating wheel brought to us by the Department of Redundancy Department.
No disrespect taken...And a couple of rebuttals...
August 14 2012, 9:33 AM
And if you know me, you know that I'm one of the biggest rabble rousers for change in IPMS.
You are correct that under the current system with rotating venues, the show is always inconvenient for some. But at least they can hope that a future venue will be closer to them. If you stick the convention in one place, it will ALWAYS be inconvenient for the same group of people.
I'll stand by my point about a reduction in the number of models and the number of larger models. Yes, there will always be a few that are willing to find a way to get their work to the venue no matter the size, but one constant I hear from convention to convention is "I'll have to fly next year, so I won't be able to bring much or my Farley Fruitbat won't fit".
I was also at the Anaheim convention and was part of the total melt down at registration. It was that disaster that prompted the switch to a standard registration system. Every convention is now required to use the IPMS/USA Convention Management System. While it may not be the best solution out there, it was developed by an IPMS member at no charge (having looked at similar software packages in my industry, I'd imagine that buying a package could run tens of thousands of dollars) and it does work. As with any system there will be glitches and/or human error such as the very frustrated gentleman who's pre-registration was completely lost, but since Anaheim, there has not been a total melt down, and I've been to every convention since. So again, I'll stand by my comment that the reinventing the wheel statement is out dated.
I'll grant your point about the profits from show to show being able to probably cover travel and per diem for a dedicated group of folks to run the convention. As well as the possibility of a dedicated venue in the off season being able to reduce costs. But, who would those folks who run the show be? If you're looking to maximize efficiency, they would have to be the same folks year after year. When would they get to enjoy the show? Every convention chair, and most host club members I've ever spoken to has told me two things. One, that it is one of the most rewarding and even fun things they've ever done. And two, they didn't see much of the show. I don't think you'd find many people to do that year after year.
And as for my personal preference to get to different areas, well, I did say it was a personal preference. Speaking for others with limited vacation time, they may not be able to take a vacation and make a special trip to the IPMS Nationals. Being able to make the trip both a Nationals experience AND a vacation get away may be the only thing that makes it practical for them to attend based on either time or financial reasons.
As I said, there are good arguments for both a set yearly location and a yearly rotation. I also believe that there is work that can be done to improve either the current format, or a revised set location format. And there are draw backs to both formats. The only way to find out what the membership really wants is more discussions like this, where both parties are willing to consider each other's POV, and to get more of the membership as a whole involved. Unfortunately, civil, productive discussions seem to be rare these days, and getting more than a token number of members involved seems to be about impossible. If you go to the IPMS forums, there is a very small subset of the membership that debates issues like this, and even when it comes time to vote every other year, my memory is that less than 25% even participate in that regard. The end result is that IPMS leadership rarely has an incentive to make large changes. From what they can see, the majority of the membership is happy with the status quo.
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