An Fw-190F QuestionNovember 13 2017 at 7:18 PM
|Marin Ennis (Login mfe59)|
from IP address 18.104.22.168
I recently picked up the 1/32 Revell Fw-190F and Eagle Editions Sheet #91 for a future build. Everything seems to be in place except for some confusion over the camouflage.
Eagle Editions calls for an 83/75/76 camouflage for Chevron Triangle Green 1 of III/SG 10. Yet reading the Smithsonian title regarding the restoration of their Fw-190F the author stated it used 70/75 upper surfaces and presumably RLM76 elsewhere.
My question is was RLM70 ever applied to Fw-190Fs?
Wondered at that one myself.
|November 13 2017, 7:50 PM |
I would never discount just about anything I see for late war Luftwaffe camo and paint. The flip side is don't believe everything you read either!
Comparing two different 190's to try to draw a conclusion at that time of the war is dangerous. There were several schemes, including 74/75/76, 75/83/76 and 81/82/76 that were all in use concurrently at that time, depending on the plant, batch and subtype. And tat is not even including substitutions due to wartime needs!
As for the NASM F-8, I am inclined to believe it. No real reason for it not to be 70, since it was a commonly available colour. The NASM does exceptional restorations and their research is generally excellent, so I am sure they checked the colours thoroughly. That aircraft was repainted and upgraded at least once, if not more, when in service, so I don't find it hard to believe that a late war upgrade would make use of a substitute paint colour. I have even seen a listing (Merrick?) that shows substitute combinations of colours to be used during the transition from old to new paints in late '44. This was to use up old paint stocks without reordering obsolete colours. It is quite possible that 70 was a substitute for 74 at that time.
Reportedly, the NASM Fw 190F-8 had three separate camouflage schemes.....
|November 13 2017, 9:32 PM |
which were discovered during the restoration process, and the museum had to choose which one to display on the completed aircraft. German paints are always such a charm to study because of their practice of using up old paints before using the newer ones, but then who really knows if that was bog-standard for all manufacturers? Some factories may have had better paint supplies since these were regional (northern and southern paint manufacturers tended to ship to the nearest factories). My guess is that they found RLM 70 on the airframe and chose that color scheme.
|November 13 2017, 9:50 PM |
Was the final scheme on the plane and the one they restored it in. I believe it was initially built as an A-4, probably in a Mediterranean 79/76 scheme. Then rebuilt to F-8 standards in early '44.
I have to say, this was one well travelled and long lived airframe! It was done to F-8 standards in early '44 and then used in '44/'45 on the Eastern front. I am surprised it lasted that long and also that it was picked for evaluation, since it was such an old airframe. It seems to have lasted for at least two years when most such aircraft were lucky to last two months. Probably largely due to the German habit of rebuilding old aircraft.
PS: What was the third incarnation of this one?
Steven "Modeldad" Eisenman
A couple of observations.
|November 14 2017, 7:59 AM |
I agree with Modeldad's color evaluation
|November 14 2017, 9:48 AM |
Having purchased the book that deals with the restoration of the NASM FW 190 F8 many years ago, I too have always disagreed with the text in the book stating that the colors used were 70/75/76. While not seeing the airframe in person since the restoration was completed, the pictures contained in the book are very good, most being taken outside in natural light. The gray green used is not dark or "black" enough to be RLM 70 Black Green, but looks to me to be RLM 74.
It is also well known that RLM 74 varied during the war from darker to lighter and our knowledge of German colors has increased a bunch since the restoration was completed. The book shows that the paint was carefully sanded through the various layers to document all the coats of paint on the airframe. The restoration team also carefully mixed paints to match the last paint on the airframe, and I think that computers were used to help tint the paint to match. So the color used on the restoration is acurate, but the color call out by the restoration team may be inaccurate.
When I paint my kit to match the NASM aircraft, I am gonna paint mine 74/75/76, using the darkest RLM 74 I have in my paint cabinet (a bottle of Floquil Military Color enamel comes to mind).
Steven "Modeldad" Eisenman
My understanding of the continued use of 70/71 was on the
|November 14 2017, 8:01 AM |
81/82 scheme. Where old stocks of 70 could be used instead of 81 and 71 in place of 82.
...on the other hand ...
|November 13 2017, 8:19 PM |
Jerry Crandall knows his stuff.
As has been said many times, no color photo,
go with what appeals to 'you' and let 'em
prove you wrong.
I just like airplanes.
Did he disagree?
|November 13 2017, 9:08 PM |
I would be inclined to take Mr. Crandall very seriously if he disagrees with what the NASM says. Not that any human being is infallible with this stuff, but he is as close as you will get!
PS: Just took a second look at all the posts here. Jerry and the NASM are talking about two different birds. As I said before, it is entirely possible for two planes from around the same time to be in totally different camo schemes. 75/83 seems to have been pretty common, but so were several others, plus a million exceptions to whatever rules you subscribe to!
|This message has been edited by crcowx from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Nov 13, 2017 9:11 PM|
Agreed - That's what I would do
|November 14 2017, 1:55 PM |
If you can't find enough evidence to decide what you should do, then as long as you were thorough and diligent, then no one will be able to find anything to indicate otherwise if you choose to go with your own conclusion or even personal preference!
That's how almost all IJN/IJAAF cockpits get painted lol.
Steven "Modeldad" Eisenman
Just realize you may be comparing two unrelated aircraft
|November 14 2017, 8:26 AM |
I don't know the origins of the aircraft you're doing, it could be a factory F-8 or a remanufactured F-8. The aircraft at the NASM is said to be a remanufactured aircraft, so the paint used/available at the remanufacture facility could be different from what was used/available for the F-8 you are doing.
Also note that the EagleCal instruction say "Possibly 83". Which means at best Jerry believes it to have a dark green color.
BTW, the green on the NASM F-8 does not appear black-green.
|This message has been edited by samodeldad from IP address 126.96.36.199 on Nov 14, 2017 8:27 AM|
|November 14 2017, 12:06 PM |
Steven, the noting on the Eagle Editions instructions about "possibly RLM 83 Dark Green" for Chevron Triangle Green 1 is what had me confused from the get-go. I acquired the Smithsonian title on the NASM's Fw-190F anticipating some clarification. I've seen up close the NASM's Fw at Chantilly, VA and from what I saw believed it to be sporting close to RLM 83 at the time. The Smithsonian book mentions the use of RLM 70 which could be in error, but who knows? Considering the state of affairs with the paint situation in Germany in late 1944, RLM 70 could have been used, but then...
My gut feeling is I'm going to stick with RLM 83. And, one fellow Hyperscaler aptly put it, it will be up to someone challenging the chosen scheme to prove me wrong.
Steven "Modeldad" Eisenman
Agree. Unless some one says 83 is actually a Blue!
|November 14 2017, 1:57 PM |
|This message has been edited by samodeldad from IP address 188.8.131.52 on Nov 14, 2017 1:58 PM|
There were often exceptions...
|November 14 2017, 8:37 AM |
...An early issue of FSM (1982, IIRC, need to dig it from the stacks), documented the in-service schemes the Smithsonian 190F (which started life as an A7) carried. It made a convincing argument for 70/75/76 as the last scheme it carried in Hungary.
Thank you all for the excellent response!
|November 14 2017, 12:09 PM |
I truly appreciate all the input. Luftwaffe colors often create their own conundrums and my chosen Fw-190F project was certainly not an exception.
RLM70 is a valid option...
|November 14 2017, 1:50 PM |
... for the NASM Fw190 F-8. The airframe was recycled at Nordeutsch Dornier Wismar,which had been involved in production of mostly Bomber aircraft (Do217, He111, Ju88.) As such they likely had plenty of RLM70 available.
This may not be the case for the Eagle Editions decal option, as the Manufacturer is unknown.
|November 14 2017, 3:25 PM |
This is the kind of stuff that in a chaotic situation like Germany, can make all the difference. It proves nothing, but as you say, it certainly gives credibility to the theory.
To be honest, I think we modellers try at times to apply too much order in areas where it did not exist. To all the various reasons we have all presented to promote our own pet theory, we can add in possible variations in paint colours from batch to batch. An exceptionally dark batch of 83 could be mistaken for 70. Add in 40+ years of weathering and it is quite possible the NASM simply misidentified it.
You can not be more orderly or consistent 75 years after the fact than the original aircraft was when new. I don't mean to create a free for all, there are definite trends and reasons for things, but specifics of individual airframes, especially after a period in service and an overhaul or two, can not be stated with certainty.
I find looking back at the 109 and 262's in Australia to get some idea of what aircraft in 1945 in Germany looked like!
|This message has been edited by crcowx from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Nov 14, 2017 3:28 PM|
|November 14 2017, 6:58 PM |
Peter Rodeike years ago pointed out that NASM's F-8 was not a rebuild A-7 but built originally as an F-8. They had misread a data plate number that turned out to be a part number not an airframe number.
Ah! Thank you, Jerry! (nt)
|November 15 2017, 9:02 AM |
I'm not going to argue what color went where and when, but just to
|November 15 2017, 11:19 AM |
interject that the fellow that took on sanding down the F-8 wet sanded, by hand, using 600 grit paper, down through the colors. To the best extent possible, one layer was taken off at a time and the observations carefully studied and recorded. The scheme applied to the F-8 on display is correct for whichever layer was selected.
Just my two cents worth.
I am aware of this information as I was a pretty good friend that did this job. He was a well respected member of IPMS and was very careful to "get it right".
Mark E. Young, Jr.
MSgt, USAF (Ret)
KC-135A, built when man thought he could burn water