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Original Message
  • Did I misunderstand this declaration in your earlier post?
    • Donnie Cruz (no login)
      Posted Jun 19, 2005 12:28 AM


      I have just reread Dr. Crump’s three guidelines for responding: (1) … Be specific … please refrain from generic responses like, “I hated” the church of Christ; (2) If you left and later returned …; (3) What … to do so that people would not leave….

      It appears that in response to #1, you have covered [quite in detail] a lot of ground on the basis of your own personal experiences with your “environment” (but everyone has his/her own set of experiences—this includes myself). For intellectuals like you—and I meant that sincerely—your unfortunate set of circumstances in the past is hardly a valid point for discussion in this thread in light of the differences in doctrinal matters, vast or small, among various religious groups.

      In addition, this website’s main focus has been on issues regarding changes taking place in churches—changes that have caused people either to be alienated or to leave their home congregation because the leadership has allowed or forced such changes to occur. I don’t believe that Dr. Crump’s intent was to use this thread as a confessional in order to relieve guilt or pain, although we sympathize and commiserate, or to use this thread to discuss social issues regarding child molestation, physical abuses, etc., and immoral lives of other people.

      In essence, I have gotten the same impression that while you were specific in your initial post regarding your unfortunate experiences while growing up (and you added even more of the same in your subsequent post) … the impression that you literally hate and feel resentful toward “the church of Christ”—it is obvious! How else can I make that statement without sounding rude? And in your third post, you sounded hateful to Dr. Crump—this time personally.

      Regarding point #2—this is somewhat inapplicable for the reason that, and I believe it is safe to say, you have not returned.

      Regarding point #3—you haven’t made comments or suggestions. Or, have you? I guess it remains to be seen.

      Now, let’s go back to point #2—the reason for the title of this post. “Did I misunderstand this declaration in your earlier post?” Your original statement was:

        “I was born into a COC family, attended church three times a week, and was sent to a private COC school K-12. I was never baptized in the COC because even as a young child things did not add up.”

      With your level of intelligence, you would not soon forget this scriptural doctrine that a penitent or repentant sinner is not added to the church (Acts 2:37-42) until he has been baptized into Christ in order to have his sins remitted in the blood of the Lamb. Your declaration is that you were “never baptized in the COC because….” And the logical and intelligent conclusion is that you were never [your own word] a member of this church in the first place. And, therefore, you never left the church you were never a member of. Is this making sense? [Believe me … I’m not judging you. I’m only trying to make sense of your declaration. OK?]

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    ...........................THE BOOK

    What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

    There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

    This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

    Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
    Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

    Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

    It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

    At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

    They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

    The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

    At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

    Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

    The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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    Here is the list of players;

    5 Godly Elders
    10 Not so Godly Elders
    120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
    2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
    2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
    Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
    Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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