Place your banner ad here.          See all banner ads

|| || About || Links Library || Help Warn Others ||
|| Madison Church of Christ || Richland Hills Church of Christ || Hillcrest Church of Christ || More Churches || Sunday School in Exile ||

Where is my NewThisWeek Email subscription?Click Here

Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

Respond to this messageReturn to Index
Original Message
  • Re: Psallo
    • PPB (no login)
      Posted Mar 6, 2006 4:12 AM


      Thanks for your posting, I just now saw it. Below is my response.

      Please note that your first passage is from 444 AD - nearly 400 years after the writing of the NT letters. Several changes in the meaning of the word Psallo had already occurred during this time frame - so I'm not sure how this relates to the issue of the original letters and their true meaning.

      Clement of Alexandria (Paedag. ii, 4);
      "The psalm is a melodious and sober blessing." - I'm not sure where you are going with this one, as I don't see any reference to the usage/non-usage of instruments.

      Basil the Great and Gregory of Nyssa were both born over 250 years after the NT letters. Again, we have plenty of evidence to show that the meaning of "psallo" had changed by their time. So, I'm not sure how this ties into the issue. Furthermore, these men were part of the beginnings of the catholic church - which was begun by a a man considered a "heretic" by the original churches.

      Lucian - born abt. 125. A Syrian writer well known by philospher's and scholars for having used older Greek translations from around 500 BC (well before the time of Christ) for his writings. As such, any Greek interpretation would not always correlate to the time of the NT letters. For your review:

      "When we pass to purely literary matters, the first thing to be remarked upon is the linguistic miracle presented to us. It is useless to dwell upon it in detail, since this is an introduction not to Lucian, but to a translation of Lucian; it exists, none the less. A Syrian writes in Greek, and not in the Greek of his own time, but in that of five or six centuries before, and he does it, if not with absolute correctness, yet with the easy mastery that we expect only from one in a million of those who write in their mother tongue, and takes his place as an immortal classic. The miracle may be repeated; an English-educated Hindu may produce masterpieces of Elizabethan English that will rank him with Bacon and Ben Jonson; but it will surprise us, when it does happen. That Lucian was himself aware of the awful dangers besetting the writer who would revive an obsolete fashion of speech is shown in the Lexiphanes." THE WORKS OF LUCIAN OF SAMOSATA. Complete with exceptions specified in the preface TRANSLATED BY H. W. FOWLER AND F. G. FOWLER

      If you read all of his writings on this issue, it becomes very clear that Clement is discussing the use of instruments both inside and outside the assembly. He is fully against their usage in the assembly and wary of their usage outside the assembly. He felt instruments could lead one away from God, but did not fully condemn them outside the assembly (temperate banquet). I believe that is exactly how many c of C regard instruments today. There is a time and place, but the assembly is not the right time and place for the use of instrumental music. I think the posting by Judge Knott clarifies that even better.

      Here are more excerpts from Clement of Alexandria, (c. 195 E), 2.248 - 2.290.

      "Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be BANIHSED from the temperate banquet...The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by whom we honor God, is what we employ. We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel, and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses at their festive assemblies...But let our songs by hymns to God...We must reject frivolous music, which weakens men's souls."

      I hope this helps clarify why I have such issues with poor and outdated translation and why we need to be very careful about where we get our translations.
    Login Status
  • You are not logged in
    • Login

      Provides additional benefits such as notifications, signatures, and user authentication.

      Create Account
    Your Name
    Message Title
    Message Text
    Enable formatted text (what's this?)
    Notice: This is a moderated forum. Your post will not show up until a moderator approves the message. If you regularly have full posting privileges, you may have to login first.

    Place your text ad here.           See all text ads

    This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

    ...........................THE BOOK

    What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

    There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

    This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

    Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
    Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

    Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

    It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

    At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

    They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

    The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

    At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

    Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

    The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

    The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

    This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

    To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

    This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

    Here is the list of players;

    5 Godly Elders
    10 Not so Godly Elders
    120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
    2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
    2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
    Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
    Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

    Click Here......The Book is Available Now FREE

    Place your banner ad here.           See all banner ads ...About ...Links Library ...Sunday School in Exile ...Help Warn Others

    FastCounter by bCentral

    CM Visit Counter as of 6/25/2015

    Site Visits Since 6/30/2015
    page counter