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  • Psallo
    • Chris (no login)
      Posted Mar 16, 2006 3:38 AM

      Please excuse me for being late. My modem was fried and I was knock out by the flu bug for a couple of days. I do not have many Greek lexicons to consult but I do have Arndt & Gingrich, Thayer and, not strictly a lexicon, Trench.

      I would have liked to quote you in full but that would be too lengthy. I apologize if I have inadvertently cut off the important texts.

      Lucian in Parasites wrote "It is impossible to pipe without a pipe or to PSALLEIN without a lyre or to ride without a horse." (Approx 160AD)

      Ken: He DOES NO say that a PSALM demands an INSTRUMENT. He said: you cannot PLUCK unless you have something to PLUCK.

      Lucian simply means that one cannot psallein without a musical instrument! IOW, no instrument, no psallein.

      Ken: You CANNOT use Lucian without CONFESSING that you INTEND to use music to PLUCK the fleece from the FAT HEADS, SIMPLETONS and especially WIDOWS on wellfare.

      Lucian of Samosata wrote in ATTIC GREEK and not Koine.

      It doesn't matter who quotes Lucian you cannot have him speaking a form of GREEK a hundred years or so after Paul.

      Chris: Strange logic. Lucian may have used IM for the wrong reasons but that does not mean that when we quote him on the usage of a word (psallein) we have to used IM the same way he does. Ken is telling us IM has been used in the wrong place and for the wrong reasons. That is not scriptural but cultural reason for rejecting IM.

      And since Lucian was writing in Attic Greek and not Koine (I presume you know that Attic was the foundation for the development of Koine) why bother to tell us about the wayward practices IM was used by Lucian. Just prove to us that the meaning differs. Hey, Arndt & Gingrich and Edward Robinson did not know better for referring us to Lucian.

      Ken accused Tom Burgess of using ‘"quoted" resources OUT OF CONTEXT which has to be DELIBERATE. ‘

      I am sure Trench, likewise, deliberately quotes early Church Fathers OUT OF CONTEXT. And Thayer is his accomplice since he referred us to Trench.

      Ken: The argument is that PSALLO meant to play an instrument AFTER Paul.

      Chris: Nope, that is NOT the argument. The argument is that Psallo did not change its meaning to exclude an instrument by the time Paul used it.

      Ken: Psallo NEVER means to play an instrument, much less does it mean SING and PLAY and name an instrument.

      Chris: Let’s see what 4 distinguish scholars of Greek have to say about that.

      Arndt & Gingrich – The original meaning of Psallo was ‘pluck’, ‘play’ (a stringed instrument); this persisted at least to the time of Lucian (cf Parasite 17).

      Thayer – b. …to twang the strings of a musical instrument…; and absolutely to play on a string instrument, to play the harp etc.

      Trench – Psalm – properly a touching, and then a touching of the harp or other stringed instruments with the finger or with the plectrum…, was next the instrument itself, and last of all the song sung with this musical accompaniment. It is in this latest stage of its meaning that we find the word adopted in the Septuagint; and to this agree the ecclesiastical definitions of it;
      And then he quotes the early Church Fathers.

      All of these "quotations" are--as far as I have been able to do THEIR work and chase them down--are deliberate lies.

      Chris: ‘…as far as I have been able to…’? That does not inspire too much confidence now, does it? I’d rather depend on the scholarship of people like Trench, and Thayer.


      Some think that the verb has here its original signification of singing with an instrument. This is its dominant sense in the Septuagint, and both Basil and Gregory of Nyssa define a psalm as implying instrumental accompaniment; and Clement of Alexandria, while forbidding the use of the flute in the agapae, permitted the harp. [Vincent goofs also: this was in PRIVATE MEALS or entertainment. And we PROVED to you that Clement identified the HARP as Christ and His Word]

      Chris: So Vincent goofed because he disagreed with you.

      Finally, I am not advocating the use of IM in your congregation. Sing acappella if that suits you fine.
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