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  • Re: Mistaken on Communion and Worship
    • Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
      Posted Jun 11, 2011 7:13 AM


      I reviewed your initial post related to "obeying leaders and communion." I counted the number of references to me personally. The words "you" and "your" occurred this many times in the short paragraph:

               ...does your website fit in...
      obey your leaders?
      justify disobeying...[your elders at Madison]...
               ...[you justify] disrepecting...your elders at Madison...
      you take the Lord's Supper at Madison...
               ...because if you do....
               ...division between you and members...
      are in danger of eating and drinking...
               ...damnation to your soul...
      division as you eat and drink...

      It appears, Sonny, that Dave has mentored you somewhat with your references to this website and me. Your 3rd paragraph reflects that mentoring. But considering your usually kinder and gentler posts in the past, it's fine with me this time. At least you readily admit that you "could be wrong."

      With respect to 1 Corinthians 11, I will have to disagree with your notion that there's more to the observance of the Lord's Supper than "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME."

      There's that problem among the progressives/liberals in interpreting the chapter. The 11th chapter, yes, speaks of different things -- you can read that over and over again and make a long list of subject matters. But the portion that deals with the Lord's Supper only is precisely instructed in verses 23-29. In fact, verse 20 says that in regard to all these other things extraneous to and apart from "discerning the Lord's body" -- "... this is not to eat the Lord's supper."

      The new "trend" with liberalism is extending or expanding God's design and purpose of observing the Lord's Supper. How much farther can a church go with combining the Lord's Supper with a "fellowship meal" of barbecue, chips and soda? Besides, are you aware that it will take a long, long assembly period to account for and settle all the differences among members -- even worse in a mega congregation -- prior to the Communion?

      No, it is not the time to examine relationships, differences in spiritual gifts, being rich or poor, during the commemoration of the Lord's death. Otherwise, with those thoughts, discerning the Lord's body becomes distorted and obstructed.

      In regard to "Donnie," I believe that the assembly of NT saints is designed to be a school of the Word in order to "teach and admonish" one another ("let the word of Christ dwell in you richly"), as well as to observe the Lord's Supper "in remembrance of me," the Lord says. True, I bring up the leadership issue when it is wrong or misguided or when it is not accordance with God's will. But I have nothing against the members, therefore, there is nothing to forgive. I am comfortable with "examining myself" and "discerning the Lord's body" -- doing so with other members in the gathering.

      In regard to Hebrews 13:17, I am not disregarding the teaching in the passage. You must not have understood the contingencies that I had listed from Scripture, relative to elders being qualified and being worthy of double honor. You assume that nothing can go wrong with a leadership or that its decisions are always for the good of the fold it tries to lead. (Would you take time to re-read my original response to your original question?) You were talking about me (Donnie) and obeying my (Donnie's) leaders. I do not recall the elders giving me specific commandments to be obeyed. But if you're referring to the warning from CM to uninfiltrated, peaceful congregations to "beware of the change agents" and not follow their culture-driven SCHEMES [as it happened in Madison], you are wrongfully accusing me and this website. It was the wrong decision on the part of the "divided" eldership which caused division in the congregation. You cannot blame me or the congregation, for that matter, because the division occurred. It's bad, sad and unfortunate that it occurred. In reality, it's the congregation that deserves to hear from those that caused the division.
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    ...........................THE BOOK

    What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

    There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

    This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

    Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
    Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

    Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

    It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

    At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

    They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

    The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

    At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

    Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

    The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

    The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

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    Here is the list of players;

    5 Godly Elders
    10 Not so Godly Elders
    120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
    2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
    2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
    Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
    Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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