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  • Re: Who Ya Gonna Believe? (Let the Scripture Speak)
    • Donnie (Login Donnie.Cruz)
      Posted May 28, 2017 2:09 AM


      I completely agree with your premise in this thread -- that Jesus is NOT the Father. But when you equate God the Father with Jesus the Son of God, then you are very confused and self-contradictory. Scripture tells you again and again that you cannot have it both ways.

      Hebrews 1
      2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD

      Response: Dave, you are confusing the grammatical structure of the passage. Let's clarify for you the "he" and the "whom" in the passage. Simply: "Hath [God] in these last days spoken unto us by [God's] Son [Jesus], whom [Jesus] he [God] hath appointed heir of all things, BY [JESUS] ALSO [GOD] MADE THE WORLD." Jesus the Son is not equated with God the Father.

      Genesis 1
      In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

      Response: Correct. God created the heaven and the earth. Or, it would have said: "Jesus created the heaven and the earth." Would it, Dave?

      John 1
      10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

      Response: This verse is a reference to the Father, not to Christ.

      Why, in Genesis, it mentions GOD ONLY as the creator.
      Why, in John, it mentions JESUS ONLY as the creator.

      Response: Both passages (in Genesis and in John) are references to God the Father.

      YET, in Hebrews, the author specifies that the world was made BY HIM (Jesus).

      Response: No, Dave. Hebrews 1 says that God made the world THROUGH Jesus.


      Colossians 1
      16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

      Response: Don't skip the preceding verse 15 -- Jesus is THE IMAGE OF the INVISIBLE God. Lincoln's image on a penny is not Lincoln. Washington's image on a quarter is not Washington. Jesus did not create; it was THROUGH Jesus that God created....

      17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

      Response: The word "before" [pro] means he is "superior to" all things. You're not a "thing," Dave.

      18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

      Response: That passage is correct: Jesus established (began) his church.

      Not only were all things created by Jesus, but FOR Jesus

      Response: Correct: All things were created: (1) THROUGH Jesus and (2) FOR Jesus

      God and Jesus are separately called the creators, yet there is one Creator???

      Response: There is only one Creater -- God the Father.

      God = Jesus

      Response: God is the Father; Jesus is the Father's Son.

      Don't believe Dave, and certainly don't believe in someone who will deliberately distort the Word of God, such as those who own this site. Believe THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Right Ken?

      Response: Don't believe in the INVENTED Trinity. Trinitarian translators have distorted quite a few scriptures by mistranslating them to promote their doctrinal agenda.

      Donnie can't fathom that Jesus is God because Jesus is the Son of God.

      Response: Accurately stated: It is unfathomable (and it is a FALSE CLAIM) "that Jesus is God because Jesus is the Son of God."

      Matthew 28
      18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

      Response: There's nothing wrong with the passage: All power is given by the Father to His Son -- the Father does not become the Son in the process of giving and receiving.
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    ...........................THE BOOK

    What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

    There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

    This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

    Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
    Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

    Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

    It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

    At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

    They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

    The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

    At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

    Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

    The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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    Here is the list of players;

    5 Godly Elders
    10 Not so Godly Elders
    120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
    2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
    2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
    Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
    Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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