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Hocus Pocus

August 3 2012, 5:52 PM 

Donnie, there seems to be a problem with the chronological order of a post in this thread. Is someone desperate?

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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)

Re: Hocus Pocus

August 5 2012, 6:14 PM 


Good question concerning the chronological order of posts in this thread (or any other thread)!

It's the way this forum is set up. There are two options:

(1) If you click the "Respond to this message" button of the particular post, as in your "Hocus Pocus," the response will be posted directly under that post. Notice this response.

(2) If you click the "Respond to this message" button of the initial [beginning] thread, as in "A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S," the response will be posted at the bottom of the thread. David Fields does this a lot -- the reason why often it is difficult to figure out which message he is responding to. I would not recommend this unless it is an entirely different subject or title within the same thread. I would recommend reserving this for the moderators in most cases.

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Bro. Claiborne's Passing

January 26 2015, 2:49 PM 

Winfred Claiborne, 70 year plus preacher, died November 18, 2014. He had been sick since January 2014 with pancreatic cancer. Preached for West Fayetteville Church of Christ, and chief speaker on their International Gospel Hour.

He preached on that radio program until the last few weeks.

Jody Apple is his replacement on the radio program.

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Donnie Cruz
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When It Is Not to "Let the Word of Christ Dwell in"

July 29 2012, 5:26 PM 

The remark "Acappella, A cappella not Biblical:" is clearly further explained by what follows -- "modern songs sung with complex harmony by groups...."

"A cappella" music has had its own unique history, although it has been defined in modern times as simply non-instrumental.

The church dissidents, a.k.a. the "change agents" in the brotherhood, have used "a cappella" music in defense of the use of psudo-professional services of the "Praise Team" [the equivalent of the Baptist CHOIR] in "worship." That [the acappella Praise Team] is the gimmick used by the change agents in their "boiling the frog" methodology of transitioning from the CHOIR (Praise Team) to fully implementing the worldly instrumental music in "worship."

Modern "praise [rah-rah-rah]" songs originating mainly from money-making "Christian Rock" artists and performers, especially those with Pentecostal/charismatic religious backgrounds, are written with all sorts of musical instruments as part of the performances. Praise Teams, with the the awareness of "forbidden" instruments, make adjustments to the type of music with: (1) rhythmic handclapping [that they "gladly" refer to as "joyous" praising]; (2) emulation/simulation of instrumental music sounds and noises; and (3) very complex harmony that creates an atmosphere for the congregation of the praise-team-dependency syndrome. Meaning that the congregation alone will have difficulty singing without the worship-leading Praise Team.

The object of the assembly of the saints, based on the Colossian and Ephesian references, is NOT about singing or music. Rather, it is about "letting the word of Christ dwell in you richly." And speaking or singing is the medium used by which we can teach and admonish one another.

The original message you quoted simply suggests that neither instrumental music nor complex a cappella music accomplishes the purpose for which teaching and admonishing one another through singing is served.

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David Fields
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Re: A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S

July 29 2012, 4:31 PM 

Donnie, you change my alias to anything you want. If you like Dave Fields, then use it. It is how you folks operate. Maybe you can suggest that B use his real name? Never mind, that would take away a double standard. Don't do that.
B said "This "elder" APPARENTLY thinks it's perfectly acceptable to ADD more to Christ's explicit commands than what Christ has specified therein, all on the false, man-made reasoning of "God/Jesus didn't say not to." SPECIFICALLY, this so-called "elder" sees nothing wrong if congregations ADD instrumental music to worship God when Jesus through Paul specifies vocal music and stops there. This "elder" guy APPARENTLY thinks that "God/Jesus didn't say not to" is part of Jesus' Gospel. Here's some news for this guy who plays at being an "elder..."

Notice that I capitalized the three words: APPARENTLY, SPECIFICALLY, and APPARENTLY again. B is a false teacher and therefore would insert these words (capitzalized) to make it seem that I had made these ASSUMPTIONS. Exactly the modus operandi of concernedmembers. Just as much as good can spread so can evil. B and Donnie Cruz proves this very fact. They live it every day. I have never said that "God didn't say to" but I don't have to....B and Donnie will say it for me. God's Word in Acts 20: 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
However, men like B and Donnie Cruz don't accept this....they don't hold to God's Word that the Holy Spirit had put them in their place of leadership. Men like B and Donnie Cruz want to show that they know better and want another direction different from what God wants. Because the Madison elders decide not to go with what these men want.....then these evil men want to condemn these elders. The elders at Madison haven't gone against the Scriptures but against what Donnie, B, and others want. So Donnie and B, like children, have decided to throw little tantrums because they didn't get their way. Donnie and others have decided to create this evil site because they are selfish and didn't get their way with the elders. They want their traditions, traditions of men, to be upheld. Jesus and the apostles didn't dress up for worship, nor did they know four part harmony, yet Donnie and such men say that when they put on their coat and ties and sing four part harmony that it isn't traditions of men. If they aren't traditions of men, then what are they? Most of what we do on Sunday is traditions of men, which in and of itself isn't wrong. It goes terribly wrong when men cater to one set of traditions over another set.


NOTE: "Madison Rules, ABSee the Cat, You Pick! as "Your Name" did not pass. When you become an elder of Madison (coming from Clemson), your "Madison Rules" ID will be more meaningful, appropriate and applicable. But not until then.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jul 29, 2012 5:38 PM

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(no login)

Re: A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S

July 29 2012, 10:13 PM 

Donnie isn't asking Dave to give his real name if he doesn't want to; he's simply asking Dave to pick a user name and use it CONSISTENTLY. That's what B does. But since Dave continues to use all manner of ridiculous IDs with his ranting posts about how "evil" this site is, then Donnie just fills in Dave's real name. Maybe Dave will eventually learn; maybe not. Probably not. happy.gif

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The Popes of Christ

August 1 2012, 11:29 AM 

With all respect to those opposing changes to the music, they do have every right to question such a signficant change. Elders are appointed by the Holy Spirit, but in keeping with the Reformation and the Restoration, every member is a priest of God. It's an unfortunate church where the members are disenfranchised. Calvin and Luther were against the "Popes of Christ". D. Lipscomb said that for men to assume that they have "office" is popish. One of the big problems in this atmosphere in the concept of the "elders" or "shepherds" themselves. It is unfortunate that there is such a power struggle that elders select their own, rather than to place this out to the congregation. The only explanation for this is that there are two churches meeting at Madison, and not one church.

As encouragement, consider these verses:

Romans 14:10 "But why do you judge your brother? or why do you set at nothing your brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

11For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God."

Both sides are going to lose. The big question is where does this stop. It's like the camel who wanted on a cold windy night to stick his head in the window. The man inside obliged. Then the camel wanted to have his head through the door. The man obliged. Then the camel complained about the draft. The man closed the door. Then the camel said "It's too stuffy if here for both you and me. Why don't you leave."

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The Popes of Christ

August 1 2012, 9:33 PM 

The elders disqualify themselves up front. Paul begins Romans 14 by saying:

Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

This speaks of people's personal preference opinions. Paul begins with the big issue in Rome about suspicion when converts went to the marketplace on CERTAIN days to buy CERTAIN foods. All of the meat and wine would be sold by the pagan temples. However, the principle excludes everything that stands in the way of edifying or in this context EDUCATION.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

In Romans 15 Paul excludes the SELF-pleasure which is the LADED BURDEN of "creating spiritual anxiety through religious ceremonial." Both the Greek and Latin word excludes all of the performing arts men used to "lift you up" to take your property. Then the pattern defined in the wilderness is.

Romans 15:3 For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of
our Lord Jesus Christ.

So, the elders have done two things God hates: They have imposed music in the "temple" and they have deliberately sowed discord. I don't believe that you lose when you point out the difference between "our preference" and the Commands of Christ. "Will He find faith when He returns?" No, almost none: so I think you can't lay out the word without getting hurt as Jesus told His diciples.

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Short Range and Long Range

August 6 2012, 12:10 PM 

Scannning the Internet, and finding 4 G's, 40 Days, and magic church growth is like the Old Testament description of "it's tasting sweet in the mouth, but becoming bitter in the stomach." For a little church growth, the bargain is Faustian. The outcome is likely to devour what is left of the church that does so. De-anchoring from the Churches of Christ has its price. Members are not likely to support change that threatens their wider family structures. In fact, it is very possible that rather than getting growth, there will be further decline, even in the short run.

Could the real problem be, not the organization of the church, or the fact that it is not "well-oiled" from a membership level, but the fact that there is a muscular weakness of "doctrine" at the pulpit level. That is, there is no "scripture". Lack of vision at this level, make eyes cast outside the "fellowship" to where they grasp for straws, some magic formula by which they will become a mega-church. Like Esau, we are enjoying the bowl of "pottage."

The attraction of disciples from neighborhood churches, through sensational theatrics, has its limits, even if successful. Eventually the sources of growth dry up (all the area churches are depopulated) and then the population of the receiver church is either drawn away from that congregation by even greater theatrics, or they mutate into a mass of confusion, from which come a new wave of divisions.

Elderships not functioning scripturally seems to have "clone" elders that are "wimps" and "yes" men that are selected by dominant elders so that their own "visions" are always achieved. There is no real give or take and solutions by consensus, rather the "yes" men rubber-stamp the ideas of the boss elders.

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Dave Fields
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Re: A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S

July 29 2012, 4:37 PM 

"Because vocal music is the ONLY kind of music that is specified, then adding other kinds of music, like instrumental music, does not comply with New Testament Scripture."

Not so....SINGING does not exclude instrumental music....YOU DO B!.

We are told to sing and instrumental music doesn't keep us from singing. It only accompanies the voice.....It only AIDS the voice.....nothing matter how loud one cries about it.


NOTE: "Atlanta Braves as your ID has been changed. Let us know if you wish to use "Atlanta Braves" as your ID consistently, and we'll go from there.

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jul 29, 2012 5:42 PM

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Re: A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S

July 29 2012, 9:31 PM 

Dave argues for instrumental music, because he says it "aids" and "accompanies" the singing. That is merely Dave's opinion that has no sound, scriptural basis. Dave doesn't seem to realize that the New Testament only says to sing and make melody in the heart, but it says NOTHING about adding instruments to "aid" or "accompany" our singing. Therefore, Dave and others ADD TO AND EXCEED the New Testament directive when they support the use of instruments. Is Dave not familiar with the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command? He should be, since he has apparently chosen to thumb his nose at it. If we really want to do the right and safe thing, we will follow the specifications within God's/Jesus' commands and not go beyond what He has written about them in the New Testament.

The New Testament directive only specifies vocal music and stops there. We must do the same. Dave says instruments do not prevent us from singing, but that's really not the point, and Dave should know that. The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add instrumental music or any other kind of music to "aid" or "accompany" our singing. The neither-add-to-nor-take-from command takes care of that. Bible believers will be content with the New Testament directive about vocal music, whereas change agents and other malcontents will go over God's/Jesus' head and do as they please.

What about volume, pitch, tempo, and singing in unison or harmony? Does the New Testament provide any directives about them? No. Therefore, they are not doctrinal issues and we may implement them. On the other hand, the music with which we praise God IS definitely a doctrinal issue, because the New Testament not only addresses it but goes on to specify vocal music. Since instrumental music doesn't even enter the picture, we may not use it. As I said earlier, the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command takes care of that.

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The answer is not in this forum...

July 30 2012, 4:29 PM 

Just a few thoughts from someone who stumbled upon this site.

***BACKGROUND: I have a BA in Music Education, a minor in Bible, and over a quarter century's experience as a leader of corporate worship in churches of Christ.
To clarify, I am not an advocate for either instrumental or purely vocal music. I will keep my own councel in this matter so my comments are not misconstrued.

***TO THE READER: If you question whether Ephesians 5 prohibits instrumental music, read the entire passage in context. Verse 19 has been used for many years as a "proof text" for the exclusion of instruments in worship. If you do not know the term, it is defined as, "The practice of using quotations from a document (often, but not always, a book of the Bible) to establish a proposition. Using discrete quotations is generally seen as decontextualised." Read. Pray. Fast, if necessary. Ask God for wisdom, and He will give it to you.

***SUGGEESTION: Rather than be caught in an endless debate, I ask you to read the whole chapter in context and discern for yourself the agenda of the writer . If you don't have the chapter handy, here is a link to it I challenge you to review several translations if you want to test the true meaning.

Ephesians 5 (selected quotations for context)
1 Imitate God, therefore, in everything you do,
2 Live a life filled with love, following the example of Christ. He
3 Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such
4 Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokesthese are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God.
7 Dont participate in the things these people do.
8 ...So live as people of light!
11 Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness...
12 It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret. 1
21 And further, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.
22 For wives, this means submit to your husbands as to the Lord.
23 For a husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of the church.
25 For husbands, this means love your wives, just as Christ loved the church.
28 In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as they love their own bodies.
33 So again I say, each man must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Now fill in the blanks...

"15 So be careful how you _____. Dont _____ like fools, but like those who are wise. 16 Make the most of every opportunity in these evil days. 17 Dont _____ thoughtlessly, but understand what the Lord wants you to do. 18 Dont be ______________, because that will ruin your ______. Instead, be _____________________, 19 singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs __________________, and making music to the Lord _________________. 20 And ____________________________to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

***DRAWING A CONCLUSION: Ask yourself,
1. What is the overall theme of this passage?
2. What is the writer arguing for/against?
3. When reading verses 15-20, do you understand the context as inclusive of worship (at any place, at any time, personal or as a group)?
4. If so, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
5. If not, how did you arrive at your conclusion:_________________________
6. Do you believe verse 19 suggests
a. Singing only in our hearts (no vocalizing)
b. A vocal outpouring of the heart
c. An attitude of worship and thankfulness
d. A command to worship only with the heart
e. A command to worship only with the heart and voice
f. An attitude of worship that neither prohibits or suggests instruments
d. Other

***RESOURCES FOR FURTHER DISCUSSION: In regards to discerning truth and constructive dialog, which part of Galatians 5 does this site best represent:
a. love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control
b. hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy;

***ACTION: If you find yourself in a church body that is acting against your understanding of this passage, here are instructions from Matthew 18 on how to settle disputes:

"15 If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

[b.] Matthew 18:15 The Greek word for brother or sister (adelphos) refers here to a
fellow disciple, whether man or woman; also in verses 21 and 35.
[c.] Matthew 18:15 Some manuscripts sins against you

***POST SCRIPT: There are no clear answers on how to find resolution past this instruction, however, we can be sure about this online community and what service it is providing based on 1 Corinthians 6:1-8:

"When one of you has a grievance against another, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life! So if you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who have no standing in the church? I say this to your shame. Can it be that there is no one among you wise enough to settle a dispute between the brothers, ..."

I happen to be a minister, but I wonder how many unbelievers have stumbled upon this community? No matter what your direction after reading this, do not do as you have seen here. It is not in keeping with our clear instructions to keep matters of the body of Christ out of this generation's court of public opinion; the internet.


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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: The answer is not in this forum...

July 30 2012, 7:22 PM 

That's fine: just don't go around boasting about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING other peoples church house and church family so you can IMPOSE instruments and instrumentalists. God warned the elders about that and they refused to listen. That's when God gave them kings (and Levite Soothsayers" in His anger and then sent them beyond babylon from whence there was no return.

[linked image]
[linked image]

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Re: The answer is not in this forum...

August 1 2012, 6:52 PM 

The answer is to follow the teachings of Christ and His apostles as written in the New Testament. Some of those teachings are as follows:

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Romans 16:17 KJV).

Because change agents with their unscriptural doctrines cause a multitude of divisions in churches, we MARK THEM and encourage readers to AVOID THEM. People use the Internet all the time to spread the Gospel. What better way to issue warnings to the general public to mark and avoid the change agents than through the Internet as well?

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David Fields
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I like St. Lous Better

July 30 2012, 8:49 AM 

B said "The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add instrumental music or any other kind of music to "aid" or "accompany" our singing."

The POINT is that even though the New Testament only instructs us to use vocal music, it has NOT given us permission to add a PA system to "aid" or "accompany" our singing.

See B, how your reasoning is so skewed and biased?

Give me your best shot about the PA and how instrumental music and a PA system is like comparing apples and oranges. It always did and does make for a good tall tale.


Author: David Fields, not "St. Lous Cardinals [sic]"

This message has been edited by Donnie.Cruz from IP address on Jul 30, 2012 10:37 PM

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Don't Be Obtuse

July 30 2012, 9:30 PM 

Remember the movie The Shawshank Redemption? When Andy Dufresne finds new evidence that would free him from a life sentence in prison, he asks the warden to start the ball rolling for a new trial. But the warden isn't about to let Andy go, because the warden has Andy laundering money for kickbacks. When the warden denies Andy's request, Andy says, "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

When a person persistently denies that comparing PA systems and instrumental music is like comparing apples and oranges, we can ask him the same two questions: "How can you be so obtuse? Is it deliberate?"

Well, we don't really expect a person with such limited cerebral function to be capable of understanding, so the following summary is for discerning readers with readily functioning grey matter.

The New Testament addresses music for worship, which makes music a doctrinal issue. In fact, anything the New Testament explicitly addresses about worship and living the Christian life is a doctrinal issue. Since the New Testament specifies vocal music but not instrumental music, and since we must abide by the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, then we are not permitted to add other music like instrumental music. God need not say, "I forbid instrumental music," because the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command already covers that. God need not be redundant there.

On the other hand, since the New Testament doesn't address PA systems or a host of other items like restrooms, electric power, podiums, kitchens, carpets, pews, hymnals, church buildings, etc., etc., then they are not doctrinal issues. Whether or not we implement them does not impact the explicit doctrines in the New Testament.

It is foolish to attempt to "compare" a doctrinal issue like worship music with a non-doctrinal issue like PA systems. Does God authorize vocal music in the New Testament? Yes. Does God authorize the addition of any other kind of music in the New Testament? NO. Now since God doesn't even address PA systems and the other things like restrooms and podiums, does He even need to authorize them? No. Why? Because He knows that having such items will not impact His explicit, New Testament doctrines.

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David Fields
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Four-Part Harmony

July 30 2012, 3:15 PM 

Donnie said "very complex harmony that creates an atmosphere for the congregation of the praise-team-dependency syndrome. Meaning that the congregation alone will have difficulty singing without the worship-leading Praise Team."

When four part harmony was introduced way back when.....I can imagine those singing unison said the same thing.


David Fields used "A Capella" [sic] as this message's author.

This message has been edited by madisonchurchofchrist from IP address on Aug 1, 2012 12:36 AM

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(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: A_N_N_O_U_N_C_E_M_E_N_T_S

July 30 2012, 6:44 PM 

I should never be a question of what can I get away with but what does Scripture say. God has many times excluded our personal opinions or our collective councils to go beyond being A School of Christ.

I like to give the Spirit OF Christ, the prophets, apostles and all translators to have been ALERT to the fact that if God wants people sing AND play an instrument they had and used TWO FORMS.

First, Scripture could and ALWAYS did indicate to play or pluck (you can't psallo a flute) IN ADDITION to naming WHAT is to be plucked. From the meaning of Psallo, the new Hair Plucking Minister may make your hairs twang.

Second, the Spirit OF Christ was pretty smart! He would have used a COMPOUND word just like a normal human. If you tell someone to PLAY you MUST tell then what or how to PLAY.

Here are some words with evil connotations which could have been but WERE NOT used. Again, not telling you what to do but hoping for at least letting Christ in the Prophets and Apostles have their say before you decide to do something different if discording.

humnd-e ,
A. sing a hymn or song of praise, Pl.Lg.682a, LXX 1 Ch. 25.6: generally, sing, thrnon A.Ag.990 (lyr.).
II. = khrsmde [sorcery], E.Ion6; cf. humndia 2. [u^ in A. l.c., v. humnos fin.]

Plat. Laws 682a Indeed, these verses of his, as well as those he utters concerning the Cyclopes, are in a kind of unison with the voices of both God and Nature. For being divinely inspired in its chanting, the poetic tribe, with the aid of Graces and Muses, often grasps the truth of history.

1 Chronicles 25.6 All these were under the hands of their father for song in the house of Yahweh, with cymbals, psalteries, and harps, for the service of the house of God; Asaph, Jeduthun, and Heman being under the order of the king.

H622 âsaph aw-saf' A primitive root; to gather for any purpose; hence to receive, take away, that is, remove (destroy, leave behind, put up, restore, etc.):assemble, bring, consume, destroy, fetch, gather (in, together, up again), X generally, get (him), lose, put all together, receive, recover [another from leprosy], (be) rereward, X surely, take (away, into, up), X utterly, withdraw.

yedûthûn H3038 probably from H3034 yâdâh A primitive root; used only as denominative from H3027 ; literally to use (that is, hold out) the hand; physically to throw (a stone, an arrow) at or away; especially to revere or worship (with extended hands); intensively to bemoan (by wringing the hands):cast (out), (make) confess (-ion), praise, shoot, (give) thank (-ful, -s, -sgiving).

humnd-ia , h,
A. singing of a hymn, hymning, CIG2715a22 (Stratonicea), Porph.Abst.2.34: pl., E.Hel.1434, Ps.-Luc.Philopatr.26, Artem.1.56.
2. = khrsmdia, prophetic strain, E.Ion682 (lyr.

The Levites prophesying with instruments performed as SOOTHSAYERS

humnd-os , on, A. singing hymns, korai Id.HF394 (lyr.); sophn then humndon Diog.Ath.1.5; humndoi, hoi, choral singers,

God HIDES Himself from the Wise or Sophists:

sophos , , on, A. skilled in any handicraft or art, clever, harmatlatas s. N.7.17; mantis Id.Th.382;
Margites Fr.2; but in this sense mostly of poets and musicians, Pi.O.1.9, P.1.42, 3.113; en kithara s. E.IT1238 (lyr.),

Pind. N. 7 And I expect that the story of Odysseus came to exceed his experiences, through .....the sweet songs of Homer,
.....since there is a certain solemnity in his lies and winged artfulness,
.....and poetic skill deceives, seducing us with stories,
.....and the heart of the mass of men is blind.
.....For if [25] they had been able to see the truth,
.....then mighty Aias, in anger over the arms, would never have planted in his chest the smooth sword

I'm too tired for this.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Jul 30, 2012 6:47 PM

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David Fields
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Follow God or man

July 31 2012, 10:05 AM 

I quote the following: "Now since God doesn't even address PA systems and the other things like restrooms and podiums, does He even need to authorize them? No. Why? Because He knows that having such items will not impact His explicit, New Testament doctrines."

We now have a certified concernedmember's vicar that speaks for God ("Because He Knows..."). Didn't know you had it in you B!


David Fields used "Choices" as this message's author.

This message has been edited by madisonchurchofchrist from IP address on Aug 1, 2012 12:39 AM

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RE: Follow God or Man

August 1 2012, 1:57 AM 

If you follow God, you follow His commands and stop where He stops. If God issues a command, you follow the specifications within that command and STOP where God stops. To do so is to comply with the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command. Now Dave, on the other hand, has previously said that we may add instrumental music if we wish, because it "aids" and "enhances" and "accompanies" our singing. Did God really tell Dave all that, or could it be that Dave himself has turned around and played "vicar of God" and would speak for God? God in the New Testament mentions absolutely NOTHING about adding instrumental music for purposes of aiding, enhancing, accompanying, or embellishing our singing in any form or fashion. Therefore, we may not have instrumental music.

As far as music is concerned, if you follow God, you comply by singing, making melody in your heart, and you stop there, which excludes instrumental music or any other forms of music.

If, however, you choose to follow men like Dave, an "elder" of all things, you thumb your nose at the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command and ADD instruments to suit your own personal preferences.

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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site;

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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