The Community Church Movement: How Obvious Is It That the Saddlebackers Have Taken Over the Madison Church of Christ?

The special web presentation on “The Community Church Movement” provides valuable information on how this “contemporary” and semi-secularized religious movement is becoming widespread among conservative churches in general. Even churches of Christ have not escaped from its influences to the extent that some of the congregations of the church of our Lord have been intruded, destroyed and captured by this “change” agency. These congregations have now aligned themselves with the community churches, some of which no longer or are ashamed to carry the name “of Christ” with which and with whom to identify the name of the church. These congregations proudly wear and prefer to append the word “Community” to the name of the church.

The web presentation, with permission granted by The Spiritual Sword publication, is an invaluable collection of well-researched information by talented individuals who are grounded in the truth. It is recommended that ministers and elders, as well as other serious Bible students, of congregations that have not yet been infiltrated, deluded, diluted and captured by this agency have this information available and ready in order to combat the evil nature of this movement.

For those who haven’t come across this collection of articles, please note the linkage to this presentation on the homepage. The list of articles includes the following:

. EDITORIAL (A Survey of the Community Church Movement) ---- Alan E. Highers
. Willow Creek/Saddleback Models --------------------- Jimmy Ferguson
. History and Development of a Community Church ------ Mike Hixson
. Book Review: The Purpose Driven Church ------------- Winford Claiborne
. The Church Growth Movement ------------------------- William Woodson
. Contemporary Worship – How Far? -------------------- David Sain
. The Market-Driven Approach ------------------------- Dan Winkler
. Book Review: Ashamed of the Gospel ----------------- David R. Pharr
. The Influence of Modern Trends on the Church ------- Wayne Jackson
. A Critique of the Community Church Movement -------- Gary McDade
. An Informed Brotherhood ---------------------------- Editor

The important question that faces the Madison Church of Christ is this: How obvious is the destruction of the Madison congregation in comparing its status to what it had been prior to the infiltration by the change agents, in terms of the upheaval that it experienced not too long ago, and in view of the continuing changes that are still taking place in order to implement the community church pattern?

This question must be answered by its community church leaders, as they are the ones responsible for providing the community-conceived alternative of “diversity” to appease everyone, instead of providing ways and means to “unite” everyone in the Lord! The editorial has well summarized, as enumerated below, the CHARACTERISTICS of the community church movement and its pattern for church growth. So which of these characteristics are obvious and applicable to where the Madison congregation stands at this stage?

(1) Contemporary music and what might be called “upbeat worship.”
(2) Eliminating or diminishing the name “church of Christ.”
(3) Casual emphasis in worship, both in style and dress.
(4) Different kind of leadership model than “authoritarian” elders.
(5) Praise teams and entertainment orientation in worship.
(6) A greater emphasis on “self,” including one’s own feelings and emotions.
(7) De-emphasis on doctrine and the restoration plea.
(8) Less contact and fellowship with mainline churches of Christ.
(9) Division of existing congregations in order to implement the “community” model.
(10) A market-driven program, i.e., striving to provide what people want or what they are seeking.

If the Madison congregation has reached a point in which a reversal is no longer possible, then, may it be a lesson for other congregations to remain steadfast in preserving the truth, to be vigilant and be discerning of the imminent risks and dangers that this movement brings, once it is embraced.

Donnie,

Thank you for the concise description of what you are calling the Community Church Movement. I am referring to the Editorial written by Alan E Highers. The article lists characteristics of the "Community Church Movement." So, like your post suggests, I took a look at Madison to see if these characteristics were present.

Mr.Highers says:
Not all change agents are in agreement on all points, but there are those among them who want to change the role of women in worship, music in worship, the style and emphasis of preaching, the attitude toward the Bible as authority, the place of baptism for the remission of sins, the distinct nature of the church, and the work of the Holy Spirit.


Mark observes at Madison:
The role of women has not changed. They do not lead publicly. They do not take the office of Elder, deacon, preacher, etc. Women do not do anything at Madison that they have not done for several years. So even if you do find women at Madison doing something that you don?t think they should. It probably predates any alleged Saddleback takeover.
The emphasis at Madison has always been that music is accapella. That is still the case. Throughout my growing up at Madison, we were never told that hand clapping or hand raising was wrong. In fact, at times our teachers would encourage us to follow them in a clapping or hand motion song. So the role of music in worship has not changed at Madison.
The style of preaching changes every time we change the name of the man in the pulpit. In fact, sometimes the style changes from week to week even if the same man stays in the pulpit. The emphasis of preaching often changes through the years as well. That's nothing new. It can't be the product of some Saddleback takeover if the changes were happening routinely before Saddleback existed.
The attitude toward the Bible at Madison is that it is the absolute authority for the Lord's church. Always has been and always will be. For a while recently, there were some among us who abandoned the Biblical authority of the Eldership, but we are back on the Biblical track now.
Nothing has changed concerning the place of baptism at Madison since it's beginning.
I'm not sure what he means by ?the distinct nature of the church.
I have not noticed a change in teaching on the Holy Spirit except that we no longer prohibit the Holy Spirit from acting directly if He wants to.
So from these criteria, we can begin to conclude that Mr. Highers is not writing about happenings at the Madison Church of Christ.

________________________________________________
Mr. Highers says:
There are undoubtedly many fine people who are still identified with "change agent congregations" who do not recognize the changes that have transpired or the inexorable direction in which the church is heading.


Mark observes:
There are undoubtedly many fine people who are convinced that their congregation has been infiltrated or taken over by a conspiracy when in reality, the conspiracy is just a fantasy cooked up by those who simply do not like some of the changes taking place.

________________________________________________
Mr. Highers says:
It is sad but true that some do not want to be different in contending that baptism is essential to salvation, that instrumental music in worship is unauthorized, that women are not to exercise dominion over men in the assembly, or that we are bound by the authority of the scriptures (Col. 3:17). They want to be like the nations around us.


Mark observes:
It is indeed sad if there are some who do not hold to these doctrines. But none of them are in the current leadership at Madison Church of Christ. Again, it appears that Mr. Highers is writing about some place other than the Madison Church of Christ.


Mr. Highers then lists ten characteristics of the "Community Church Movement". And you encourage us to see how many of them apply at Madison. Okay, lets go.

(1) Contemporary music and what might be called "upbeat worship."
I?ll concede this one to you. Yes, the music at Madison is more contemporary than it has been in the past. But I contend that this has always been the case over the long haul. In 1960, the music was different from how it was in 1945. In 1990, the music was different from how it had been in 1960. Whether we try to or not, we change with the times. Over it's several decades, the Madison congregation has learned new songs, forgotten old ones, and held on to some of its favorite oldies-but-goodies. Granted, we have made a quantum leap recently with a large infusion of new songs. And this leap has been an uncomfortable one to some. But the difference is in the volume, not in the fact that we are incorporating new songs. If more contemporary music is a sign of "Community Church Movement" infiltration, we were infiltrated decades ago. In fact, if changes in music are an indication of change agent infiltration, we were infiltrated long before the "Community Church Movement" is said to have begun.

Upbeat worship? I remember hearing the same complaint from those who hated the "foot tapping" Stamps-Baxter songs. You see, it is not a new complaint. A pattern of music becoming more upbeat in the Churches of Christ, including Madison, can be readily observed by anyone who has been participating for more than a couple of decades. So, if more upbeat music is a sign of "Saddleback takeover", how is it that the trend toward more upbeat music predates even the birth of Rick Warren?

(2) Eliminating or diminishing the name "church of Christ."
Tell me. How often do you call the church office? Anyone who has done so over the last several years can tell you that before the arrival of those you have branded as "change agents", the common protocol for answering the phone at the church office was to say "Madison Church" and then the name of the person answering. Were those devoted ladies, who served the congregation for so many years, actually the original "change agents?" Did they intentionally remove the "of Christ" in their greeting? Does the conspiracy go back that far?

But the words "Madison Church of Christ" still appear on the building, the stationery, the ads, and most printed material that we produce. So this attribute of Community churches is not found at Madison.

(3) Casual emphasis in worship, both in style and dress.
I have been privileged to attend worship services at churches of Christ all over Tennessee and in several other states. I can assure you that there are many Elders and deacons who will stand in the pulpit wearing their overalls on any given Sunday morning. Is this a sign that they have been infiltrated? Anyway, this "casual dress versus wearing your best" argument predates the birth of anyone ever involved with the Madison Church of Christ. So how can it be used as evidence of a conspiracy or influence of a movement?

As for style, are you going to try to convince me that the style of worship at Madison Church of Christ was exactly the same in the 1980s as it was in the 1930s? If the two styles were not identical, then were the "change agents" already at work between those two decades? Even if we were the same in those two decades, does anyone believe that we have restored the exact "style" of worship that the first century church used? Do we even think that the first century Ephesians employed the same worship "style" as the first century Philippians? If we are not currently using the same styles that these first century Christians used, who were the "change agents" that instigated that change?

(4) Different kind of leadership model than "authoritarian" elders.
I'm surprised that you bring this one up in connection with Madison. As a matter of fact, it was the Eldership that decided that there would be a third worship service. It was the Eldership that decided that the format of that third service would be moved up to the auditorium at 10:30. It was the Eldership that decided to reverse some of the changes that resulted from moving that contemporary format to the auditorium. And all along, the people who wanted contemporary worship RESPECTED AND SUBMITTED TO THE AUTHORITY OF THE ELDERS over the congregation.

And most who did not want contemporary worship likewise respected and submitted. Some decided that moving to another congregation was the only way they could do that. But there were some who rebelled. I'm not talking about simply expressing opinions or attempting to persuade. I'm talking about people spreading lies about those involved in contemporary worship. I'm talking about Elders who had previously agreed to support majority decisions, refusing to submit themselves to the authority of the Elders. And how about a group of deacons upset over some Elder decisions attempting to disfellowship a portion of the Elders?

We did indeed see a model of leadership other than ?authoritarian? Elders being endorsed. It was a model of leadership based on who had "built and paid for" the congregation. Praise God that the Biblical model was the one that finally prevailed. And since the Biblical model did prevail, I guess this characteristic of the "Community Church Movement" is not found at Madison Church of Christ.

(5) Praise teams and entertainment orientation in worship.
Okay. I understand that you don't like praise teams. I also understand that you have been under the mistaken impression that there has been a praise team in the 10:30 worship for the last year. What you have actually been hearing is a congregation that, thanks to praise teams in other settings, has learned the songs so well that you hear a difference.

While others on this site have been explaining the truth to you about the non-existence of a praise team at the 10:30 worship, you have been going on and on about how you can hear the praise team. Thank you. You have proven the usefulness of a praise team better than most advocates. The praise teams in the Homebuilders class and in the Wednesday gatherings in Bixler Chapel have assisted the congregation in learning many songs. And now when the congregation sings one of those songs in the 10:30 worship without the praise team, you say it sounds like the praise team is dominating the congregation. Hallelujah! Mission accomplished. For those songs, at least, the congregation has learned the song so well that you thought it was a well-trained praise team. That will happen more and more.

So, being convinced of the usefulness of a praise team in promoting four part CONGREGATIONAL singing, (a long-standing characteristic of the churches of Christ) the Elders are now going to bring a praise team back to the 10:30 worship. That is the motive that the Elders claim in restoring praise teams. You say their motive has something to do with a Saddleback takeover. I guess each of us will have to decide who we are going to believe.

Entertainment? If we wanted to entertain, we would give up on trying to teach the congregation a new song and just have the praise team sing by itself. I think that maybe you are confusing entertainment with joy.

So I'll give you a half on this one. We do find praise teams as a new phenomenon at Madison. But you won't find any of the leaders who have Entertainment as a goal.

(6) A greater emphasis on "self," including one's own feelings and emotions.
Actually, the emphasis on self is coming from you and others on this site making accusations about the motivations of others. It is you placing the emphasis on the person who raises his hands in worship. It is you placing the emphasis on someone clapping for joy as he sings. Many of the people doing these things are actually placing the emphasis on the Lord. I know this, not because I make assumptions about their motives, but because I have actually spoken with them and taken them at their word.

So the emphasis on self is not greater. In fact, it is diminished.

(7) De-emphasis on doctrine and the restoration plea.
Wasn't one of the restoration pleas "In matters of faith, unity. In matters of opinion, liberty."? But we have had the departing Elders tell us that we cannot have the liberty of two differing worship services and still be united. Actually, we are keeping that part of the restoration plea better now than a few years ago.

How about "Speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent." Some have said that since the Bible does not authorize praise teams, we must not have them. Such logic is speaking where the Bible is silent. If the Bible says nothing about praise teams, then you don't get to impose your opinion on me. And I don't get to impose mine on you. Perhaps that is why we are given Elderships to decide how each congregation is going to handle an issue. Sounds to me like Madison Church of Christ still has a good hold on the restoration plea.

Doctrines? Like the ones listed above? I've already covered that everything that traditionally characterizes a Church of Christ, is still in place at Madison.

(8) Less contact and fellowship with mainline churches of Christ.
It may be that there is less contact with other churches of Christ. That is more likely the choice of the other congregations, though. It could be that, like you, they don't think we should have a praise team or something like that. Or it could be that they have heard and believed some of the lies that are being spread about us. There are people who have been told that we have changed the name of the congregation, that we have installed an organ, that women have led public prayer, and other lies. While we know that these things are untrue, those who believe them are less likely to fellowship us.

So if you are saying that having lies told about us is an evidence of "Community Church" influence, I don't know how to refute that. I'll grant you this attribute, but contend that it is not the choice of any leaders at the Madison Church of Christ.

(9) Division of existing congregations in order to implement the "community" model.
Are you talking about other congregations or about Madison? Again, the division came about when some of the congregation refused to submit to the authority of the Eldership.
There may still be some members at Madison who don't like the fact that there is a contemporary worship service at 10:30, but they are still united with the rest of the congregation in carrying forward the cause of Christ. The notion that a congregation cannot have two distinct services and remain united is ludicrous and has been disproved repeatedly in other congregations. The division or split at the Madison Church of Christ was caused by certain Elders and members who refused to submit to the Eldership when valid, scripturally sound decisions had been made. Anyway, the motive described above (in order to implement the "community model") precludes this "Community Church" attribute. The division occurred not in order to implement the "community" model, but to usurp the authority of the Elders.

(10) A market-driven program, i.e., striving to provide what people want or what they are seeking.
Market driven programs have always been a big part of the Madison Church of Christ. That is why we have nurseries, coat racks, personal hearing devices, heating and air conditioning, a gym, a reception room. That is one of the reasons why we decorate our building so well. For as long as I can remember, we have striven to make every aspect of a person's experience at the Madison Church of Christ pleasant. We do this so that nothing will drive a lost soul away as we try to teach him about his Creator. Indeed, some of these things actually attract some people to us. Then, once they are with us, we are able to teach them.

No, being somewhat market-driven is nothing new at Madison. Does that mean that the Saddleback conspiracy started long ago? Or is it perhaps that the Saddleback conspiracy is just another one of those lies created so that someone would have a scapegoat to blame for changes that they don't like?


So the score is:

We have three of the listed attributes (1, 3, and 10)that are indeed present at the Madison Church of Christ, but which predate the existence of the Saddleback church. So it's difficult to honestly conclude that they may be part of an alleged Saddleback conspiracy.

We have five and a half of the attributes (2, 4, 6, 7, 9, and half of 5) that are not found at the Madison Church of Christ.

But we have one and a half (8, and half of 5) of Mr. Highers' attributes that are present at Madison and did not predate the recent division. ONE AND A HALF OUT OF TEN!! If the leadership at Madison Church of Christ is indeed trying to implement a Saddleback or community church takeover, I give them very poor marks for their effort.

What was that question again? How obvious is it that the Saddlbackers have taken over? What's obvious is that if the Saddlebackers ever existed, they have failed to even incorporate two of their ten major criteria at the Madison Church of Christ.

Donnie, someone has noted here that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a duck. But what has happened here is more like someone has concluded that a Labrador retriever is a duck simply because they both have webbed feet.

There is no Saddleback conspiracy at Madison. There is simply a loud minority that still refuses to submit to a Biblical Eldership over Biblical decisions.

Mark, I really appreciate your sincere and honest assessment of where the Madison congregation stands in terms of the influences that characterize the community church movement. I assure you that the time you spent detailing your analysis was worthwhile. We need more of the kind of response like yours on this site.

I hope my assumption is correct that you are the Mark Spears that has led singing a number of times in the past. And if so, I’m here to endorse your kind of song leadership. It was spiritually uplifting to me during those times when you served in that “simple” and humble capacity. I recall singing WITH YOU one of the great hymns, “Great Is Thy Faithfulness, O God, Our Father.” An “old” hymn (I suppose) that doesn’t change the true meaning of “reverence” in addressing our God, not with a too-chummy “you” attitude, but as “our Father” in heaven. (Even Christ shows us in Matthew 6 the manner in which we are to address our Creator in prayer, “Our Father …,” in contrast to addressing the commonality.) I hope I do not embarrass you if I mention that you have the talent and that I would prefer your kind of song leading – humble, simple, not arrogant, sincere – in contrast to how it is being done now.

Mark, I really have much more to say in regard to your comments. But please be patient as I await responses from others also. I have great respect for your honesty and sincerity.

Donnie

Mark,

I do not know anything about "Saddleback" or the "Community Church Movement". I also do not know how the worship
service is conducted at Madison anymore because I now attend The Goodlettsville Church of Christ as do many other
previous Madison members. I do know about the values and standards that are representative of the Church of Christ.
I have not read Mr. Highers editorial but in your detailed analysis and comparison of it, that I thought was very
well written, some of your observations are not entirely correct. I am not just arguing with you but here are some
of my observations from my experiences growing up at Madison, as you did, and compared to the present, based on
some of your statements.

I have personally been present as women taught classes where men were present. I have also seen women stand
before meetings with the elders and speak. Women are also reffered to as Ministers in many different capacities
at the Madison Church of Christ. I have also "heard" of women leading prayers in "Care Groups" where men were
present but I realize this is just hearsay.

The role of music in worship at Madison "has" changed drastically. You even concede this in one of your statements,
when comparing attributes of Mr. Highers, later in your article. It is presented as if it is the main attraction.
The song service should be a "Spiritual" worship concentration enhancer not a "Physical" adrenalin producing,(and
I hate to use this term), Pep Rally. In my "opinion", you did a great job of leading singing in worship.

Physical expressions such as Clapping and hand motions were commonly used at church camp but rarely practiced
in worship service in the past. Occaisionally, there may have been applause in the auditorium during worship on
very special occasions that were few and far between and if I'm not mistaken, it was usually after the majority
of the worship service was over. Now, it is practiced regularly especially after a baptism. I am not saying that
this is a "Sin", I am just saying that this is a "Carnal" response and there is nothing "Spiritual" about it.
These things promote "Physical Pleasure" not "Spritual Discipline".

I do not believe that there was an "Organized Conspiracy" and I am not opposed to changes as long as they are not
a contradiction of the values that are taught in the Bible and that are Characteristic of the Church of Christ.
There probably are many fine people who do not recognize these changes one way or the other. The only fantasy
is the one being taught to people, especially people who really do not understand, that they can reach God and
"Feel the Spirit" through experiential worship and complacency. I am not pretending to know the motives of anyone
and I am not saying there should be "rules for worship" posted in the building but the fact is, physical
expressions convey worldly values and do not reflect "Unity of the Spirit" and the "Bond of Peace". It is not
something that should be influenced by the worship direction.

I won't itemize the characteristics by Mr. Highers as you did because I believe what I have already said covers
the majority of them. However, I will say that I believe the lies that you and others keep reffering to are just
misconceived perceptions gathered by members at Madison or elsewhere who maybe did not read something thoroughly,
misunderstood a statement made by someone or wanted a scapegoat to justify the changes they liked.

Mark, I am not claiming that you or anyone else love the Lord any less or more than I do or that either of us
are more true and intense in our worship to God. I am a sinner and I need "Spiritual" guidance and I'm sure you
feel the same way. I don't know if there is a Saddleback conspiracy or not but I am proud to be in the minority,
if it is a minority, who will not submit to the influence of sensationalism and artificiality in the worship
service of the Church of Christ. That is the main reason that I left. I am also a little surprised that you,
growing up there as I did and being pretty much the same age, sound as though you are standing on the other side
of the fence. We may have never been on the same side of the fence I don't know and some probably think that I was
in the wrong field all together. However, if that is the case, anyone who believes that can rest assured I am very
thankful for the perspective I gained from being there.

Worship services of the Church of Christ should influence Spirtuality, Truth, Unity, Peace, Love and Humility.


In Christian Humility and Sincerity,
Larry

Chris Eubanks: FREE TO WORSHIP? WHAT IS THAT? June 10 2002, 8:54 PM

=======================
An original post under “Compelled by Diverse Unity” thread was written by ANONYMOUS on March 16 2002, 1:01 PM, entitled “FREE TO WORSHIP.” The writer defended one of the most controversial arguments presented by the community church movement, i.e., that the diversity of worship style is a provision or freedom authorized by God. The writer had other things to say in regard to those that “condemn” this freedom, as well as the disparity in the moderating of this forum. The same writer addressed one of Lawrence Bennett’s posts when he said: [[[[Larry, It's OK to prefer a worship style. In fact, it is your right. However, it is not your right to condemn those that don't worship as you…. I feel the forum is unfair. The header says it is for Madison members to express their opinion, then it is moderated or thrown into the "viper's den". Now, how can a moderated forum be fair? Also, the forum owners have attacked individuals, and it is OK for them to do it, but not OK for anyone else. This is Jr. High mentality.]]]]]

========================
CHRIS EUBANKS’ RESPONSE to ANONYMOUS: FREE TO WORSHIP? WHAT IS THAT? (June 10, 2002)
========================
[[[[[“We are not free to worship. Worship is God directed by His Holy Word. The Church is a Kingdom, with God as King and we his subjects. What right do subjects of the king have in serving in any way than what the King demands. God is also our Father. What right do children have in legislating or permitting how we are to reverence our Father? NONE AT ALL.

“We enjoy freedom from sins in Christ, not freedom in religion to do whatever we want … that any worship that is different than what is given to us by God is wrong and damnable. Lev. 10. The changes that are charging into the church of Christ is terrible and should shame anyone involved in this error.

“Madison or any congregation needs to be prayerful and careful when dealing with this problem. Gal. 1. is still in the Bible isn't it? Ahhhh!!! thought so.

God hates every false way, should we?

euby76@yahoo.com”]]]]]
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DONNIE’S COMMENTS:
==================
It is very significant that Chris Eubanks mentions that the church during its establishment would be referred to as a kingdom. Matthew 16:18-19 says, “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven….” This was actually fulfilled in Acts 2 when Peter preached on the day of Pentecost and three thousand souls were added to the church.

I wonder if this is still being taught in Bible classes for the youth. Has this kind of teaching been de-emphasized and replaced with dramatization and entertainment in which study materials are derived from denominational sources? Is this what Mr. Highers and the authors of the articles listed above are referring to as “de-emphasis on doctrine and the restoration plea”? If my assumption is wrong, could someone explain otherwise?

Disclaimer: This is a quick take of Sunday Sermon by John York and Rubel Shelly. It is a series of quick rebuttals and does not do "beginnings, middles and endings" neither is it intended for grading but just reading.

http://www.piney.com/RsJohnDOSJn21.html

The "cummunity church" really means: "We will take anyone's money." It is founded on the SAND that the Bible has been put through the "Shelly Sifter" so that nothing is left dependable but the CORE GOSPEL of seven facts ABOUT Jesus. And this truly is ANOTHER JESUS.

The thesis at the beginning of the series on John was that John "took liberties" and composed a gospel account for his own agenda. As a Community Church, Woodmont is advised to take their own liberties to make up their own NARRATIVE THEOLOGY.

In this closing sermon, John 21 is treated as an EXTRA CHAPTER rather than the usual Paul-like P.S. John York and Rubel Shelly teach that John wrote ONLY ON THE INSISTENCE OF the Ephesian Elders. The elders (warned about by Paul) then wrote part of the gospel and put their imprimatur on it to CERTIFY it as the TRUTH.

However, the quoted PROOF TEXTS are linked for you to see that the historical evidence is PERVERTED. The evidence is that John wrote a Spiritual gospel guided by the Holy Spirit and that he probably often wrote out copies since there was no printing press. The other evidence is that the Ephesians had evidence that John was consistent with THE OTHER APOSTLES but had more spiritual content.

This false evidence is used as proof that we too can hear the words Jesus spoke but which were not written down by John and others. That means that YOU TOO can now hear these unrecorded words of Jesus and using NEW GLASSES get a NEW VISION for the church unlike that of the Bible.

Rubel Shelly takes his MOST COMMON opening to condemn the OLD churches of Christ in terms more astounding and vulgar than speaking the truth about the Actor-Ministors and the UNIVERSAL sexual connection.

Their claim is that the ONE TRUE CHURCH and GOSPEL must be CERTIFIED AND AUTHENTICATED by what others see us doing as CHURCH. Rubel Shelly even uses the Corinthian church as a CERTIFYING THE GOSPEL model of the church.

I invite you to read the comments in red and as much of my SCRIPTURAL AND HISTORICAL repudiation as you can tolerate. However, the point is that the COMMUNITY CHURCH has "moved beyond the Bible" as one of your members warns me and we are looking at people transforming themselves into angels of light. Jesus as God Incarnate could not preserve even jots and tittles of the Inspired Word but WE CAN: for a price, always for a price.

The PROOF TEXTS adduced about Corinth would lead an honest student to see how Paul took all people OFF THE DOLE RIDING ON WIDOWS AND WORKING POOR to become VOCATIONAL MIBNISTERS or it is impossible to CERTIFY A "pagan worship center" as a Church of Christ.

God through Isaiah warned by asking "Why spend your hard-earned money barely able to keep you going and depriving your children and putting everyone under 'spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual' for THAT WHICH IS NOT BREAD."

I can tell you why because Paul told the Corinthians why: "fools love to be fooled."

Kenneth Sublett

I've seen some posts that maintain that we should separate our physical from our spiritual worship, and humbly submit the following to show that we glorify God with both...

I realize that the following passage is talking about not joining oneself to a harlot, but it IS physical:

1 Corinthians 6:19,20, KJV
What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Our tongue is physical:

Romans 14:11,KJV
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

James 3:5-10
Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.

...and so on.

Is our worship spiritual only? I submit that there are both physical and spiritual worship components, as borne out here. I'm not a "hand raiser" or "hand clapper," although I do find these things in the bible (both in the context of praise AND dissent). I find it difficult to condemn because I tend to take my brothers and sisters at their word that they are moved to do so instead of thinking that they're glorifying themselves.

Thanks, and sorry to be so long,
Bruce

All TRUE BRUCE.

I once collected all of the "worship" words in the New Testament. Hebrews is especially filled and there are dozens. However, just because we are to honor God by keeping away from fornications does not mean that we make A PUBLIC ACT OF WORSHIP out of it.

There are 168 hours a week and we are to "pray continually" but that cannot be a PRAYING ACT OF WORSHIP. We praise God each time we speak a good word for God and His word but we do not make a legalistic ACT OF WORSHIP out of it. We truly worship Christ in our spirit which is the only thing which can move our bodies to give a cup of cold water in the name of Jesus. But, God in heaven, protect us from people who want to make GIVING A CUP OF WATER as a collective act of worship.

We worship God every time His Mind or Spirit fills all of the spaces in our own spirit or mind after it is swept clean by Jesus. No, you cannot dispel demons with music as all pagans believed. Catholics still baptize bells and musical instruments and ring bells to chase demons away as the PASSING BELLS to give the departed spirit a head start on the demons.

The primary worship word is to GIVE HEED. We worship what or whomever WE GIVE HEED TO. I may be deprived but I still have to give heed to God by giving heed to His Word: I get no new messages to whip the old traditionalists. However, the more I "speak and make melody" in the heart as meditation, the more the Word jumps out but EXACTLY AS IT HAS BEEN DELIVERED AND TAUGHT.

Being friendly or expressing love or feeding the poor is AN ACT OF WORSHIP. But what utter contempt to show for God and the poor or friends by concocting from the depths of some depraved mind the ACT OF WORSHIP called "Let's Be Friendly for 30 Seconds."

Sure, eating the Lord's Supper is with our body but our worship is in our SPIRIT if and only when we discern the body and REMEMBER and show forth or preach the death of Christ. If someone feels the need to create a FEELING by massaging our nerve endings and needlessly arousing emergency impulses to make us DO THE SUPPER MORE WORSHIPFULLY, then that person is an enemy of all spiritual worship.

Worship God continually by allowing the spirit to move the body, but go to church to worship God by GIVING HEED to Christ by giving heed to His word and "preaching" His sacrificial death and equiping people to go out and worship the other 167 hours in a different form.

Kenneth Sublett

Bruce,

I know that you were not directing this post to me but I wanted to comment. I hope that you do not mind.

This is an extremely powerful verse in reference to how we should live here on earth. Many of US (including myself) need to do a better job of following this one. Thank you for the insight.

1 Corinthians 6:19,20, KJV
What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God,
and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This verse is definitely an indication that the Body and Spirit are two entirely different entities within the same space.

It is true that we should glorify God with the body, by “KEEPING IT PURE. That is what this verse is saying. Before this, this chapter reads: 1 Corinthians 6:15-17 NKJV
“Do you not know that your BODIES are the members of CHRIST? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not! Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one with HER? For “The Two,” He says, shall become one FLESH.” But he who is joined to the LORD is one SPIRIT with HIM. “ The emphasis is on verse 17. The BODY is where the SPIRIT resides and the way we GLORIFY God with it, is to take care of it much the same way that you take care of your home to GLORIFY yourself to your neighbors. “GLORIFY” in this context is not referring to WORSHIP.

We must all CONFESS with our tongue to become Christians and those who do not, will, at some point. But what about the person who cannot speak?

I am not sure what you were getting at quoting James 3:5-10. That passage is indicating that we should, as the song says, “Be careful little mouth what we say”. I was not trying to be sarcastic with that statement.

Worship to God MUST BE SPIRITUAL. PHYSICAL is not SPIRITUAL. I would not dare condemn or question the motives of anyone worshipping God ”UNLESS”, they are someone who is in a position of leadership or influence on the Spiritual Body and, they are promoting or “performing” something Worldly, Carnal and UN-Spiritual. They should know better.

Here are some quotes for you.

John 4:24 “God is SPIRIT and those who Worship HIM must Worship in SPIRIT and TRUTH.”

Acts 17:24-25 “God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with HANDS. Nor is HE worshipped with MEN'S HANDS, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.”

I Cor. 2:14-16 “But the natural MAN does not receive the things of the SPIRIT of GOD, for they are FOOLISHNESS to him; nor can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY discerned. But he who is SPIRITUAL judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “Who has known the MIND of the Lord the he may instruct Him?” But WE have the MIND of Christ.”

Col 3:2 “Set your MIND on things ABOVE, not on things of the EARTH.”

Have you read the Article “So what’s Wrong with a Praise Team?”

Your post was not so long. You did not need to apologize. I hope you didn’t think this was long.

Thank you. Larry

Larry,

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate the tone of your posts and the positive way you express yourself. I'm glad that we can have discourse without dragging ourselves down to the level of meanness and sarcasm. To say "thank you" seems a weak response, but thank you!

I have read your current post, and the one on praise teams, and you make some valid points. I do NOT agree with an earlier post by Kenny Lewis that a praise can "model worship," or anything of the kind. For the record, I don't know Mr. Lewis or where he participates in worship.

My reason for my post on spiritual/physical was to show where I relate my actions, "works," and things I choose both TO do and NOT do (all physical) to things spiritual. I cannot pretend to understand everything about this subject and strive to study every day to add to what basics I already do know.

I have not agreed with all the changes I've seen at Madison in the last couple of years, but I'm striving to "try" these things rather than come to any snap judgements. An investment of two or three years of time in this "active study" compared to a lifetime (especially if I live a "normal" lifespan) seems to me to be a small investment. I believe that I owe this to the brotherhood in general, but it hasn't been an easy decision. I guess I thought, at least initially, I'd bear with what I thought were the "weaknesses" of my brothers (Romans 15:1). But, some brothers (not all) I have talked to have made what I am coming to believe are some valid points.

These questions have formulated in my mind over the last couple of years: if I have a biblical disagreement with my brother in Christ (each absolutely convinced he's correct), is he still my brother in Christ? A related question would be: if so, then on what biblical subjects do we have to disagree to not be brothers any longer? I have a story about my great-grandfather to go with these questions for a later post.

You asked about quoting James 3:5-10. one reason was to show one more physical way to bless or curse (not an act of worship, or is it?), and the other was to remind posters to post our messages in a way that would be upright and would honor God and not ourselves(goes for me, too), since we aren't talking about politics or a football game here. I know that I don't have to tell you how public this forum is, I just wanted you to know where I'm coming from.

Again, thank for your mutual respect and honoring Christ and His church with your style of posting.

May God continue to bless you,
Bruce

The dialogue taking place now between Lawrence Bennett and Bruce Bowman is very enlightening and indicative a true spirit of Christian love and attempt at honest, Christ-like communication. I commend you both, brothers, and I appreciate the chance to learn from you both.

I have observed, though, that whenever I or anyone else has posted anything that contains the question or observation regarding what is the purpose that Jesus Christ came to earth and died on a cross, there is never an answer posted, never an opinion given. Volumes have been posted about other statements, questions, and/or topics but never this one. I wonder why?? I really do. Honest thoughts and heartfelt, Bible-based answers, like those we see from Bruce and Lawrence would be most welcome. I am seeking to know Jesus better and praying you are, too.

Terri, the sowing of discord is not centered on why Jesus came to earth and died on the cross. Nevertheless, I will give you at least one major answer which helps me.

If you remember, when the Israelites "rose up to play" in musical idolatry, God turned them over to "worship the starry host." And according to Paul in 2 Cor 2 He closed the eyes and ears of the Israelites and they remained closed because they would not listen to Jesus.

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye HEAR in all things whatsoever he shall SAY unto you. Ac.3:22

The problem with legal religion--like trying to be saved by not robbing--and natural religion of the Gentiles was that the clergy LADED THE PEOPLE down like pack animals to pay for their own TEMPLES, food, clothing, housing and all kinds of entertainment.

Jesus did not die to found a NEW RELIGION which gave any role for burdening the people beyond what LOVE would supply voluntarily. The EVANGELISTS made their own way and the ELDERS were the only local teachers. No leadership has ANY authority to lade the membership to do what they have no Biblical authority to do. Just as in all BURDEN LADING RELIGION, the leaders come to believe that it all belongs to them and that the BODY has no role to play except to give. However, the GOSPEL has Jesus establishing a PRIMARY reason for His replacing all MEN who are not capable of giving rest:

"Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Matthew 11:28

"Take my yoke upon you, and LEARN of me; for I am MEEK and lowly in heart: and ye shall find REST unto your souls. Matthew 11:29

"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:30

"And he said, Woe unto you also, ye lawyers for ye lade men with burdens grievous to be borne, and ye yourselves touch not the burdens with one of your fingers. Lu.11:46

DID YOU NOTICE THAT THE YOKE WAS TO LEARN? The burden of Jesus is defined as the "invoice for the cargo."

The burden of the DOCTORS OF THE LAW is defined by the Greek Word:

Phortizo (g5412) for-tid'-zo; to load up (as a vessel or animal), figurative: to overburden with ceremony or spiritual anxiety: - lade, be heavy laden.

The REST is what Jesus died to give us so that we can become DISCIPLES because He said "come LEARN of me" and not "come play religious worship with me."

What Jesus has to give is rest, freedom from spiritual anxiety of religious ceremonies--

Anapausis (g372) an-ap'-ow-sis; from 373; intermission; by impl. recreation: - rest
.
Anapauo (g373) an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to repose (lit. or fig. [be exempt], remain); by impl. to refresh: - take ease, refresh, (give, take) rest.

Music has always been known to PRODUCE ANXIETY. That is why people sing and clap and raise unholy arms. When the HIGH is over the result is more harm than good from the endorphins or morphine-within which it produces.

We COME TO JESUS through faith and baptism. That "gift of A holy spirit" in Acts 2:38 is a clear conscience or the gift of a CO-PERCEPTION in 1 Peter 3:21. Without "signing on" with Joseph the greatest BREADMAKER we would have to be baptized and pledged to Joseph as our master teacher. Only then would he divulge his secret yeast found in the cracks of a wall.

The remission of sins is like CLEARING OUT the brambles in our lives so that we have that CLEAR, unobstructed view and can become DISCIPLES. Jesus said nothing about rituals and even the Lord's Supper is a showing forth or TEACHING of the Death of Christ.

You will notice a strange paradox: Jesus spoke only in parables to those who rejected His Word to hide His mysteries from them.

When peer-selected "elders" take control and begin building "temples" and establishing "programs" we remember their type in the Jewish Monarchy where the curse imposed on the people was a king (dominant pastor) and a pyramidal ministry system where the king took your TITHE and property and handed it out to his "ministry staff."

That is the reimposed BURDEN which repudiates the death of Christ to "fire the doctors of the Law" because they "took away the key to KNOWLEDGE" and to return to us as THE SPIRIT to be our teacher but only if we accept His Word as containing the parable mysteries. The "sound and fury" is the result of someone trying to keep you separated from another element of the gospel: "The right to come boldly before the throne of grace."

Musical Performance teams are evil because their perfected harmony IMPOSES A SPIRITUAL BURDEN which causes some to flee, some to fight and some to get sexual feelings. They even CLAIM to take Christ's place as the One Mediator between man and God. Only one who is both man and God can MEDIATE between the physical world and the Spirit world.

A disciple is not a worshiper in the normal sense but a STUDENT OF THE WORD. Worship is the RESULT of giving heed to Jesus by giving heed to HIS Word. If we are giving heed to a human mediator and His words then we are worshiping him and not God.

The resulting JOY is not childish delight but:

---to be "cheer"ful, i.e. calmly happy or well-off

No one should be so judgmental as to try to define a person's sense of JOY which is inward calm proven by moderation.(Phil 4). When you are jumping joyous you are being stressed and laded. Put it on Jesus and "come aside to still waters" and get the laders off your back.

Ken Sublett

This is a much clearer post than I have seen previously from you, sir. Thank you. I assure you I intend to study the scriptures you have cited here and digest them.

I still do not agree that acapella singing in worship is in any way evil or anxiety-producing. Humans are made differently and respond in different ways to their environment. Participating in beautiful, heartfelt singing during worship helps focus my mind and does the same for many others I am acquainted with and HELPS us prepare our minds to study God's word. Being an engineer by training, I can understand why that does not translate the same way in your brain, but please do not judge or condemn others who do not think the way you do, just because God made them differently.

Again, I plan to study the scriptures cited as well as many others.

I intended to cite 1 Corinthians chapter 3.

Since we identify 'congregational singing" as a cappella I have no problem with it either. However, the more complex it gets the more removed it gets from TEACHING. And the more reliance on human SCRIPTURE WRITERS IN METER we develop, the less we prepare our children to remain in church when they reach escape velocity beginning in about the 6th grade.

My point was that if you are going to change singing into commerce, namely A Cappella Ministry, it might be more fitting to find a LOGO which does not have such a questionable background.

Furthermore, I don't claim any superiority as an engineer but when people throw big words like A CAPPELLA around I won't rest until I find out what they are selling. And the--hopefully not intentional--message of A CAPPELLA repudiates congregational singing and promotes a highly-skilled Musical Band to replace the illegal pipe organ for the pope. "Congregational singing" isn't confusing to me.

Kenneth sublett

No, I meant 2 Corinthians chapter 3

Kenneth (confused)

By acapella, I meant ONLY singing by the congregation, facilitated by a songleader or worship leader, not aided by musical instruments during a worship service. There is no hidden meaning of the word "acapella" in my post. If you prefer to call it congregational singing, that is fine with me -- we are talking about the same process and participating in it is, once again, not anxiety-producing but beneficial in helping prepare hearts and minds to study the word of God for the majority of people I know. If remaining mute while others are singing is more beneficial to your worship preparation, then God bless you and anyone else who feels that way but once again, we respond differently as we are "fearfully and wonderfully made."

A scripture to study: Matthew 7:1-6.

When the girls were younger we had a team of one man-type and three girl types (grew to 4). We sang and the girls still miss the experience.

However, my throat doctor told me to do surgery (which he didn't recommend) or get voice training. His view was that "church" singing is an extreme form which strains your voice on both ends. So, I gave it up 20 years ago and still no surgery. He might have been extreme but he said that no one should be allowed to sing in church without voice training. Doesn't the Doctor say that that is "lading a burden" on the people just because the "drug high" can be sold as a SPIRITUAL feeling?

Second, as I have noted, a high percentage of us run out of seretonin and mine quit at age 65. Therefore, not only could I NOT self-destruct my vocal chords which God didn't design for extreme overburden, I also had to give up listening to what musicologists and the priests at the tower of Babylon grasped as an extreme form of mind-control. Jesus would call it a burden which was "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual."

Therefore, the MUSICAL PERFORMANCE which has exploded even in conservative churches PASSED JUDGMENT on me and said: "Thou shalt worship in the foyer if thou art gonna worship with usuns." Why would you call me judgmental if someone fed me sugar knowing I had diabetes or pork fat knowing that I just had a heart attack--and I warned them that they are deliberately hurting lots of the members?

We are all fearfully made to react with a "startle reflex" when danger faces us. Musicologists know that bagpipes lead you into the valley of certain death because THEY MAKE YOU ANGRY. If I have to kill or be killed then it is ok to create "spiritual anxiety through ritual" such as sounding General Quarters but why would people blow General Quarters just to see the troops get to their battle stations before they woke up?

Here is a very quick take on Matthew 7. The JUDGMENT is passed by those who IMPOSE musical performance over the objections of the OWNERS of the church. Passing Judgment means here to be judge, jury and executioner. That is, I pass judgment if I afflict you and judge that MUSICAL PRAISE TEAMS are superior to your off-key honoring of the Words of Christ.

I do not pass judgment if I tell you that the musical tyrants have ZERO Biblical and historical evidence on their side and must, assuredly, have a massive beam in their spiritual eyes never to have read the story of the Garden of Eden and the end-time Babylonian form of "self-stimulated" worship of "that which people lust after." I am quite willing to stand by for MY JUDGMENT by anyone who has the audacity to claim that they a jot or tittle of evidence that a Spirit God is worshiped by "teams."

http://www.piney.com/Matthew7.html

There is a clear connection between your elders and a father who would give the children a serpent (musical message) instead of bread (the Word of God). We will point out Amos to show that the "wine, womena and music" was given to the people AT THEIR EXPENSE rather than giving them the BREAD of the Word of God.

True worship has nothing to do with "teaming" but of dialog: I did my worship this morning by listening to two local preachers on radio while I prepared this short study. I some how doubt that being a dues paying audience would have allowed me to worship and in the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 11:17 might "have done more harm than good."

Kenneth Sublett

Bruce,

Thank you for the kind words.

In response to your “Thank You” all I can think of to say is “You’re Welcome.”

The thing that we have to understand about this is that the SPIRIT is really what we are all about. It is wrong for anyone to ‘teach’ or ‘influence’ people that they can “Set ‘THEIR’ MIND” on SPIRITUAL things by Physical Experiences produced by seeing, hearing, touching, tasting or smelling. These are “Things of the Earth” and are for carnal gratification either by observation or performance.

Romans 7:25 NKJV “I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the MIND I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.”

I know that you were not indicating anything toward me but I just wanted you to know that I did not come to any “SNAP” judgement either. I still care deeply for the brothers and sisters there and I still have many friends there. I just did not want to be exposed, and especially my son, to some of the things going on and no matter what anyone says, when you have what is supposed to be the same “Body” of believers practicing two very different sets of values, that is not unity. My son got to the point that he abhorred going to Sunday school. I got to the point, as did my wife, that we were not worshipping in Spirit and Truth but observing the High Minded and Youth. I apologize for the pun. I hope you do not think it a violation of James 3:5-10.

I have not been to worship there in over a year so I really do not know about now. I “can” tell you that the Goodlettsville Church of Christ, where I worship now, has a very spiritual and reverent worship service. The atmosphere of unity, peace and Love is absolutely astounding in comparison and the knowledge, passion for the Bible and ability to teach the Bible by Charles Baugh is a great blessing.

I know that the Madison Church of Christ has many good programs and does an abundance of good for the community and world by these. I hope it can once again become the Spiritual strength for the brotherhood that it once was.

Romans 14:23b “… for whatever is not from faith is sin.”


Thanks Again, and may God continue to bless you,
Larry

Ken, perhaps the moderator (whoever he/she or they may be) should inform you that this is suppose to be a forum for the CONCERNED MEMBERS at Madison. If you have problems with Woodmont Hills, why don't you go there and start a site to deal with them. The water has been muddled too much non this site already with a lot of outsiders (which I understand you to be one of)trying to bring a lot of things into the discussion which have nothing to do with what is going on at Madison.
You can build your own straw-man and tear him down very well. However, the straw-man you have built may be nothing more that a creature of your imagination. Mark Spears did an excellent job of exposing that very thing in his well documented article in which he gave the real picture of what has happened at Madison. It seems to never have occured to you that the people who are members and attend and participate at Madison just might know more about what is happening than the outside critics who write for all these sites. I dare say that your EXPERT critical, one fits all condemnation is not appreciated by the rank and file of these churches as well.
If you let me ask the questions, I can give you the right answers. The problem may be that I might be asking the wrong questions and that don't make me very smart.

Re: Ken's "Free to Worship” June 22 2002, Member At Madison

Member, please remember that while “members discuss what's happening at their church and learn about the problems causing division and takeovers” on this website, there have been several worthwhile contributions made by non-member participants. While you’ve mentioned that this forum is supposed to be for “the CONCERNED MEMBERS,” you probably should not be participating because you don’t seem concerned about the negative impact of the changes at Madison. Instead, you are concerned that Madison just might learn more and more from documented reliable (outside) sources the truth about the reality of the irreparable damage done by the Community Church Movement to the church of our Lord.

You mentioned “Woodmont Hills.” Indeed, Woodmont Hills is a problem itself. And Madison has no business emulating the Woodmont Hills “pattern of behavior” just because of its popular leader, Rubel Shelly. Shelly, Rick Warren and Bill Hybels have so much in common in downgrading the church that Christ established and in promoting community church-ism instead. It is an undeniable fact that the Saddleback influence exists at Madison; ask Tom Haddon and others who are familiar with the Saddleback concept.

You mentioned Mark Spears and his well-documented article on the CCM influence at Madison. As much as I respect Mark and his ability and thank him greatly for his participation in the discussion, you must realize that Mark’s observations were his own. In all fairness, you should have made mention of another article in response by Lawrence Bennett, who also presented his own observations, some of which were different from Mark’s.

Therefore, I believe that while this forum is for “concerned” members of Madison, the forum has not placed any restriction on “WITH WHOM” to discuss matters. Let me point out to you, in case you haven’t been observant enough, that where it says, “Respond to this message,” it implies that the forum is open to the public. That includes individuals from any religious body. That includes the public, even atheists, so long as the site’s standards or rules are met.

SR: Thank you for the link to the article by Laurie Goodstein, “Conservative Churches Grew Fastest in 1990’s, Report Says.” The first paragraph mentioned that: “Socially conservative churches that demand high commitment from their members grew faster … in the last decade….”

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/18/national/18RELI.html?ex=1033359401&ei=1&en=36c457029cdd6824

Interestingly enough, this report mentioned nothing about the growth of the Community Churches or conservative churches falling VICTIMS to or DEVELOPING into Community Churches. This should give us more reason to believe that innovative extraneous programs, especially those that lack scriptural support, that are questionable and controversial, and that are likely to be disruptive, intrusive, and interfering, are unnecessary and should not be implemented. THEY'RE JUST NOT WORTH THE PAIN AND TURMOIL!

SR, we will not forget when you remarked sometime in July 2002 that it strikes you and many others as “terribly sad that all the ‘CHANGES’ that have been made were supposed to” bring more souls to Christ, “according to those who advocate these changes.” You observed further that “every church growth initiative that mandates ‘CHANGE’ seems to begin with running members away.” I, then, qualified your statement further with this: “Every church growth initiative that mandates ‘CHANGE’ in an attempt to IMPROVE UPON God’s divine pattern for the New Testament church is contrary to that divine pattern. How TRUE!!!

Donnie Cruz

Mark,

I have not forgotten about this thread. It’s been over a year since your original article was posted in which you presented your personal observations and assessment of Madison’s situation relative to the alleged Saddleback conspiracy. It must be noted that Lawrence Bennett also presented his own views concerning the same issues soon afterwards. We are thankful for both contributions.

I have learned since then so much more about the Change Movement, more relative issues associated with this conspiracy, and more of the more prominent perpetrators who are actually among us, i.e., in the brotherhood. I believe it is time for a re-evaluation of Madison’s situation—the reason for having this thread revived.

Mark, in case you’re not aware of it, I have a compiled a comprehensive checklist of items, factors, or elements that I believe comprise the CHANGE package. The checklist is divided into major sections, e.g., the change agents with their agenda and objectives; the Community Church model; church leadership; worship; major doctrinal issues; etc.

Contrary to what the change advocates want others to believe that conflicts in the church simply revolve around worship, the checklist is making it clear that the evil motive of the change agents is TO COMPLETELY TRANSFORM THE CHURCH OF OUR LORD [they detest this “selfish” claim] … INTO ANOTHER DENOMINATION. The checklist is making it clear also that a congregation which has already embraced the change philosophy might have opted to be very selective in terms of what its leadership wanted changed.

You may be correct in your previous assessment that Madison is one of those that have opted to make ONLY A FEW CHANGES, whether or not those changes were “enough” to cause an upheaval. Having said that, let me clarify that Alan Highers’ editorial was in general reference to churches—and not directed to the Madison congregation specifically.

I hope that once again your will expend some valuable personal time to reassess Madison’s situation by using the recommended checklist. The elements listed are very specific and quite probing. In doing your analysis, you might prove again that the views you presented last year are accurately reflected on the list. What would be interesting and revealing is a group of randomly selected members of Madison doing the same evaluation. Consistency in the responses might actually point to or identify the specific issues that have been the source of conflicts within the body—issues that have caused hundreds of members to leave. And then, more importantly, suggested resolutions based on the study could be presented to the leadership for its consideration. I’m still concerned that the exodus, no matter how slow it is right now, is still going on. I realize that there are many who have come to become members of Madison; but by contrast, there are so many, many more who have exited.

The checklist titled “ASSESSMENT TIME: AGENTS’ CHANGES DETRIMENTAL TO CHURCH SPIRITUAL GROWTH” was posted on October 13 2003, 7:14 AM. See the thread: “What Happened at Madison This Week.”

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and for your response.

Donnie

Donnie, we have all talked about the MARKS of the Change Agents. The first is using the methods of Hegel and Hitler and Gramsci, etal.

You have gone over some of these. Now, you have collected John Waddey's ORGANIZED list and posted a PURPOSE DRIVEN LIST to OUT these truly evil people.John and Bobby did the original hard work to alert us

I have taken the liberty of posting it hoping that you will further provide LINKS and especially those of John.

I will add links to the AGENTS where they are MARKED and confess as well as other evidence. I need links to John's SHORT but POWERFUL articles directing the SLEEPING CHURCH. The SYMPTOMS which John has provided are MORE IMPORTANT than any in depth discussion.

http://www.piney.com/Change.Agents.Goals.html

Thanks, John and Donnie. Ken

Mark,

Please see the thread “What Happened at Madison This Week” for the following (first 3) articles that may be of interest to you:

(1) RECENT HAPPENINGS AT MADISON: STATS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS October 6 2003, 5:53 AM

(2) ASSESSMENT TIME: “GROWING BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS” October 7 2003, 6:34 AM

(3) ASSESSMENT TIME: HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT WHAT THE CHANGE AGENTS TEACH? October 9 2003, 6:11 AM

The checklist of items (with each line preceded by a check box) is in:

(4) ASSESSMENT TIME: AGENTS’ CHANGES DETRIMENTAL TO CHURCH SPIRITUAL GROWTH October 13 2003, 7:14 AM

Thanks!

Donnie