Direct Commands and the Law of SilenceJune 25 2002 at 11:53 AM
|Kenneth Sublett (no login)|
from IP address 126.96.36.199
The link in the editorial about the silence of Scripture is located at the Christian Chronicle as the Editor noted:
The problems plaguing churches of Christ under a Period of Tribulation is based on several major thesis.
First, to FACILITATE or MANIPULATE the mind of non-students who are victims of preachifying and versifying is to claim that:
"There is no BIBLICAL authority for the Church of Christ created statement about "Commands, examples and inferences." If you buy that then WE have the authority to make up our own commands. Rubel Shelly pushes this pretty hard and claims that there is no Biblical statement about commandments.
We have posted here to give the false teachers some Biblical and universal historical understanding that the ONLY authority is through God's commands:
Sermon review of the fellow who took down my old congregation in Seattle using false information and facilitated by Jubilee and the Zoe theatrical worship system.
Another article discusses the Jones/Shelly etal claim of no dispensational differences. Therefore, we can grab statements about praise, lifting hands, playing instruments and other comments and even turn the horrible failure of the Exodus into a pattern for Christian worship and community.
The rebuttal is here and proves that everyone understood the distinction between Law and Grace except a few latter day "apostles."
We review Fred Peatross who brings you an Emerging Church of Christ which looks like witchcraft on the law of silence. The false teaching is that non-instrumentalists use this LAW OF SILENCE but it is a fact that instrumentalists use silence as God's Divine Oversight.
Al Maxey, another of the Grace-Centered stable uses false information about the Synagogue to authorize silence.
The Bible makes it clear that if people do not speak according to the Word it is because "there is no truth in them." Contra Shelly, the Bible promotes direct commands as excluding that which is not commanded.
The law of silence is used ONLY by those who want to introduce TEAMS and LATER INSTRUMENTS by saying: "God hath not said." Congregational singers use the direct command to teach with the Word with the melody in the heart. There are numerous examples of Jesus and Paul repudiating singing OUT OF YOUR OWN SPIRIT or using LIFELESS INSTRUMENTS.
So when you hear that God doesn't command, example or infer, just mark the man down as a false teacher.
If you hear that SILENCE gives authority to help God in this modern era then mark it down that the man is a false teacher, lies about the origination of these views among "ignorant church of Christ people" and is ignorant of the fact that historically all scholars honored the views promoted by Biblical churches of Christ.
They JUST MAKE IT UP to use Hegel (Machiavelli, Hitler, etc) to DISSOCIATE you so that they can ADD their NEW VISIONS for DOING CHURCH. Since they are Post Modern they can JUST MAKE UP THE EVIDENCE and fools love to pay foolers to be fooled.
|July 1 2002, 12:07 PM |
Here is something I have read for a long time. It is difficult to read by old eyes. Therefore, I have formatted it to make it more readable and to do "sound bytes" so that each major thought stands out.
This writer is from the conservative Christian church many of which have been plagued with the NEW STYLE WORSHIP and making new sects within the same congregation.
We quote the following:
The Sissification of the Church. The universal trend is for Church to surrender to culture, and our culture is a sissified one. That's the word, not feminine. Modern so-called feminism is not feminine;
it is little more than broken womanhood crying out for identity and significance.
As a culture removes itself from God, its masculine virtue fades and a twisted femaleness takes over.
That's why homosexuality is the end of the line in the mind of God.
Good men become bad men, but when men stop being men and women stop being women, the creation image is destroyed and all is lost.
Ours is a country that can barely, if at all, bring itself to execute its child murderers; it doesn't have the nerve to defend its legitimate international interests. It divinizes poverty and failure while it denigrates successful competence. It has no future but limp-wristed oblivion. The real world is not the place for sissified men, societies or churches.
The modern Church is being sissified. It whispers repentance and shouts forgiveness.
Permissiveness reigns falsely in the name of grace.
Without understand what this writer is saying you will miss the point that the theologians who love to sow discord DO NOT believe in the same BIBLE as others and therefore preach a DIFFERENT CHRIST AND A DIFFERENT GOSPEL.
|July 3 2002, 12:20 AM |
"Theologians who love to sow discord." I would say that is the best description of you and Donnie I have ever read. You could have added, "They like to go from church to church criticizing, when another church has anything that looks like it might be controversial, they stick their nose in it and make it worse than it was to start with. "By their fruits you shall know them"..... Go ahead and put it in the vipers den. You probably have enough influence with the "MODERATOR", It will not even make it there. You know its the truth and it hurts. What is the reward of a critic and trouble maker? Rev.21:27.... Perhaps you can give us the Scripture that promises a great reward for those who never have anything good to say about that blood bought institution made up of saved sinners....
|July 3 2002, 11:31 AM |
First, I have supereme authority because I tell you what Christ said: we only "prophesy" when we can say "thus saith the Lord."
Second, I don't know who Mr. Moderator is. He, She, They know that this forum is THEIR forum and THEY can say whatever THEY want to say. If THEY decide that I am not speaking the Word then THEY can shut me off and I will honor their right. You see, I am not one of those who steals church houses of widows or flaunts my sexuality (or lack of) by doing what was always proof of perversion or drunkeness in the ancient Greek World which Paul grasped:
--"That males who would stand before a religious group and perform" should be put out of the assembly and even the city. Singing in the STRAIGHT Greek world was to use the normal inflections of the Greek language and "make melody" which in the musical sense meant "a series of single tones." Singing, clapping, dancing and playing instruments (vocal bands qualify) was the arena of the male and female FEAST performers who were abused.
You remember that they hoped that John wore SOFT clothing and that when they "piped" Jesus would sing and dance proving that, as a male, He was a perverted priest of Dionysus (You know: the New Wineskin god).
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lambs book of life.
Jesus identified the Devil as a liar because HE SPEAKS ON HIS OWN. He identified His sonship by speaking only what He heard from the Father. That is the demand of Paul in the "singing" passages.
The first MUSICAL ENCHANTER was the Lucifer (Zoe) figure in the garden of Eden. And the abomination of desolation of the intertestament period was the Greek performers in the Holy Place of the Temple. The Holy Place was typical of the church into which no musical performer could go without getting killed even if only to clean out the garbage. Musical "Levites" are the legalists barging into the Holy Place and that places a MARK on them.
The HALAL "praise" word is derived from Lucifer and a quite identical Hebrew word is:
Chalal (h2485) khaw-lal'... to dissolve; figurative to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, PLAYER on INSTRUMENTS, POLLUTE, (cast as) profane (self), PROSTITUTE, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
The beginning time and end time Abomination which makes desolate (chases away the widows to steal their property) was MUSICAL PERFORMANCE to silence the Word of God (Look at Donnie's list to see that you are trying to GET INTO GOD'S ARMS TO MAKE LOVE TO HIM.) That is the universal meaning of "praise singing" as a superstitious, legalistic ritual. And you all got it from Carol Wimber who advertize praise singing's goal as having a climax with God. That is exactly what the watching world sees when the arms flail and theatrical performers PRESIDE OVER the flock. So the HEART doesn't count when the BODY has been dissociated from its spirit.
That end-time musical worship speaks directly to sexual perversion:
Re 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
The watching world CARES LESS for anything you have done, are doing or will do when you confess to Infiltrating and Diverting and are running the owners away. When there is DISCORD SOWN even upon the older elders then you cannot pass the blame as you illegally PASS THE HAT to "provide a venue for Rock and Roll" or making yourself Vile-looking by theatrical performance in the Holy Place.
God will not forget and the musical MARK is stamped on your forehead (thinking) and your hands (your illegal POWER GRASP) and if the Bible is correct 'you have fallen and you will never get up." The APPOLLO or Abaddon or Apollyon character is the founder of MUSICAL HARMONY, shooting arrows (not from his bow) and a famous SEEKER CENTER at Delphi. Apollo may be forming THEATERS FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT to SORT OUT those with the "musical mark" (Oh, Yes) from those with the MARK of God's Word.
They are evaporating before your eyes and you are laughing up your TUTUs because you are not allowed to know what is happening until you have a PEER CONSISTENT pagan worship center and looking at everyone else is like looking in a mirror and you will puke.
Challenge anything I have said or you will prove that you have been MARKED. Until then I doubt that you have been BLOOD BOUGHT or your charismatic body would consider itself sacrificed or 'BURNED UP ON THE ALTAR' which is necessary before you can COME TO CHRIST and before you can do SPIRITUAL worship which is mental worship.
A worshiper of God spiritually falls on its face before Christ and His Word and does not have the POWER or AUDACITY to stand before the "audience" and presume to be a MODEL or idol of what worship is.
The grinders or concubines will still be GRINDING when the others have been raptured away to a Biblical church which you are not remotely related to. Worry that the "millstone" around your neck is a huge bank note for which you and discorders have fiduciary responsiblity and you OWN family house is confiscated and YOU have to go seeking a new SHELTER in your old age. Count on it! You will be judged as you have judged (punished) others.
|July 7 2002, 9:04 PM |
Dr. Rubel Shelly who IS the THOUGHT LEADER for several churches who have repudiated the WORD of God keeps the embers of discord stirred. If one project bombs there is another one from AMONG THE SCHOLARS to pull out of the old hat.
It was prophesied that around Easter the Jesus Seminar would make its big EVANGELISTIC PUSH. Their "gospel" is that of the Lord's Prayer there are only TWO WORDS which are authentic. What are they? OUR FATHER.
Now, how do you suppose that scholars studying scholars who studied scholars ever came up with their NEW REVELATION which overrides 2,000 years of history? They call it POSTMODERN: old truth died and we are the prophets of a totally new ecumenical ONE WORLD ORDER.
That is why your musical praise team is not deterred from the self-destructive PURPOSE DRIVEN method by anything anyone says about the Bible.
Dr. Shelly AMONG THE SCHOLARS IN NASHVILLE says about the same thing. So, get used to another SOWING OF DISCORD TERM which may replace the Purpose Driven Cult:
You remember the discussion about Hegel? Well, the shifters are shuffling the WALNUT shells to make you try to guess which one contains the PEA. Well, the fact is that the PEA is not under Willow Creek, Saddle Back, Purpose driven, praise teams or any of those. So watch for something slinking out of the dary abyss.
It proves the historical point: any hammer which attempts to destroy the anvil of the Word of God has its own built in fractures and flaws and will OUT sooner or later. I rather enjoy seeing Biblical prophecy fulfilled before my eyes.
Will lutherans go to heaven?
|July 10 2002, 10:41 PM |
I'm just curious if the church of christ religion thinks that lutherans will go to heaven? I have been attending a attending a lutheran church recently which I really enjoy. I was brought up baptist and church of christ. Maybe, I'm headed straight for hell but I really like the lutheran church. I do not drink or smoke and think I'm living well. (not perfect..no one is). I just don't enjoy the "hell,fire and brimstone sermons anymore.. I also get the feeling at church of christ that they belief that they are the only people going to heaven...The lutheran church doesn't down other religions and I like that idea.
Could you please give me any input on the lutheran religion? Thanks!
Will Lutherans go to heaven
|July 11 2002, 11:59 AM |
Deborah, I am going to respond but God took away my right to either ask or answer your question.
Here is what I can tell you: First, Martin Luther said in effect: "If you don't fight whatever error is present you are a coward." And Luther was one of the greatest and bravest men who ever lived. But, he wasn't Jesus.
Martin Luther begged the people not to call themselves "Lutherans." Most churches used the tern "the church of Christ."
Contrary to many modern preachers, Luther and almost all theologians knew that you don't get Christian doctrine from the Old Testament.
Martin, along with almost everyone repudiated instrumental music:
The concept of baptizing infants did not alter his insistance that baptism was essential for believing adults.
Martin Luther on free will and the Holie Ghost
Another sermon on the trinity refuting THREE PEOPLE
Contrary to a growing rejection of baptism as part of the new birth, Martin Luther wrote
I will be adding more Luther here:
Luther stressed sola fide (faith only) but in words much like those of Thomas Calvin, insisted that faith must have an object and one must obey whateve was believed.
Just copy and save these links and paste them in the location or URL address space at the top of your browser.
In short, Martin Luther understood many things right but, like most of us, the church has ceased to be a school of the Bible and become a worship center focused on clergy. However, Jesus wants DISCIPLES and you need to become HIS disciple and I doubt that anything other than the Bible can be your textbook.
Re: Will Lutherans go to heaven? Deborah, July 10 2002, 10:41 PM
|July 11 2002, 5:13 PM |
Re: Will Lutherans go to heaven? Deborah, July 10 2002, 10:41 PM
We all should be thankful for Martin Luther, one of the great religious leaders, who carried out his mission of reforming the Roman Catholic Church. As already mentioned by Ken Sublett, Luther begged the people not to call themselves Lutherans. So, he had no intention of starting what has become or developed into denominationalism or sectarianism, as there are hundreds of Protestant religious bodies that now exist in the world. Each religious body or church group has its own set of beliefs or doctrines; one may be closer to the truth as revealed in the Bible than another. But we should think of religion as a form of practice or exercise such as in Christianity, in Mohammedanism, in Buddhism, in the Jewish religion. In Christianity, James 1:17 states, that pure religion
to visit the fatherless and the widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
Actually, because of the changes in trends in the religious world, the hellfire and brimstone sermons, as your referred to, are no longer being preached even in the most conservative churches. So, there isnt much of that type of sermons that we can expect or be concerned about listening to anymore anyway. And speaking of a group believing that they are the only people going to heaven, is a misnomer only because OTHERS think and believe that this particular group thinks and believes that. But that is not the case. Members of the church of Christ would not make statements like that
that everyone else is going to hell. Too bad that is the perception.
Bottom line is this: Jesus Christ is our Savior. He built a church that bears His name. Anyone who is converted to Christ is added to that church or family. This conversion is a process in which the individual expresses his faith in the Savior, acknowledges his sinful nature, truly repents of his sins. But it doesnt stop there. He has to be immersed as commanded before receiving that salvation or forgiveness of sins. (That form of baptism excludes sprinkling or pouring, however.) The condition that each convert has to meet afterwards is for the new Christian to work out his own salvation, meaning that the individual can still fall from grace. So the Christians life is that of perseverance, to continue in the faith, to serve the Lord according to His will so that in the end the reward will be to enjoy the promised eternal life in heaven.
It is important to note that various religious groups have many good people and they can be perceived as real Christians. In fact, there are many atheists who are good people by human standards. But the critical part is the scriptural process (as explained above) of how one becomes a Christian before he can actually be of acceptable service to the Master. To many people, doing church is something that you are supposed to enjoy. But the real purpose of being in an assembly is to remember the suffering of Christ for us and LEARN more of Gods will for the believers through preaching or studying. The teaching and admonishing one another can be accomplished also by singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.
In the end, only God will make that final judgment as to ones destination is concerned. But we must not deny the fact that the right way to salvation is all revealed in the Scriptures.
re: Direct Commands and the Law of Silence
|January 7 2003, 10:26 PM |
I was going to start a thread in order to study with those who are serious on this site. I'm glad that i found this one that you had started a while back. Could you provisde some insight to the following information that I discovered while studying about the church of Christ. My family attends the cofC regularly, but that was not my background in he beginning. I'm comfortable there, but am also comfortable in many denominational worship services. I notice that you are probably the best authority around regarding the sinfulness of music and performance. Would you kindly comment on the following beliefs that have been presented as "scripturally correct" by the "mainline cofC" (if my understanding is correct. I personally find some of them a little weird, but in no way mean disrespect. I am serious in my study to understand what God's plan and desire for my life is all about. If I am to seek HIM first, this pattern is most important to me. I'm not taking it as a list of rules, just identifyable desires of a Holy God. Would you please reply by number if you decide to take on the challenge and assist me. If there are any others who feel qualified to comment, please do. Respectfull answers would be appreciated.
The Rules & Pattern of the Church of Christ
1. It must be noted immediately that this list is not to be construed as a written creed. No statement of beliefs or rules outside the Bible itself is permitted. However, it will be permitted that such lists of beliefs or rules shall be allowed if written in a church bulletin or other published material provided that such is clearly designated as not being a written creed. This list is here shared merely as a convenience and with the understanding that there is really no need for such since all these rules are to be found in a clear and unmistakable form scattered throughout the pages of the collected books of the New Testament. It is also to be believed that anyone who truly loves God and the truth will easily find these exact rules and consequently obey.
2. By Scriptural definition (and for the purpose of applying these rules), a Christian is one who has done the following five acts of salvation (and in this order): hear, believe, repent, confess (a Yes response to the question Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? shall be construed as a valid confession), and be baptized. Of the several purposes and benefits of baptism, one must know that baptism is for the remission of sins in order for God to consider it a valid baptism.
3. A person who has completed the above five acts of salvation, but who comes to doubt the validity of their baptism (perhaps later thinking that he/she did not fully understand the primary purpose), shall be baptized again. One of the following scenarios must be adopted: 1) that the entire previous life of the person in question shall be considered as one outside of Christ and separated from God, thus only now becoming a new child of God; or, 2) that the person in question is being rebaptized just in case. In this instance, it shall be assumed that the person is doing so with the knowledge that baptism is generally for the remission of sins, even though he/she has may not be sure if such cleansing is really needed. Regardless, any rebaptism shall be preceded with the standard ritual of confession (ones previous life as an apparent believing Christian shall not suffice as meeting this requirement).
4. The Bible shall be considered as the standard of authority for every spiritual matter. It shall be interpreted using the approved method of command, example, and necessary inference. Silence of the Scriptures on any matter is to be construed as a forbiddance of such. However, this rule shall not be applied to matters considered to be helpful in obeying any other commands (such as church buildings and their necessary furnishings, etc.).
5. Congregations shall name themselves according to the following guidelines: 1) the name shall be one that is found in Scripture and has within it the name of God or Christ (it shall be permitted that Pauls use of the term churches of Christ in referring to various congregations may be used as a formal name and amended to Church of Christ); and, 2) the name may be preceded with a location description, that being the location of the church building, not necessarily the location of the church itself.
6. All those congregations who use the same generic name (excluding the location part of the name) and uniformly subscribe to these rules shall be considered as the brotherhood; no other Christian (one who has believed and been baptized but does not subscribe to one or more of these rules) shall be considered as being a part of the brotherhood.
7. Individual members of the church may be called by several different names that are found in Scripture (disciples, saints, children of God), but Christian is the preferred designation.
8. The church shall gather every first day of the week for worship. (Note: Most calendars have Sunday as the first day of the week. Cultures whose calendars are different will have to decide whether to observe Sunday or their first day of the week; no further help here is given in making that decision.)
9. The worship service shall consist of the following five acts of worship: praying, singing, giving, partaking of the Lords Supper, and preaching. The reading of Scripture shall also be considered as acceptable since it relates to preaching. No other acts (such as lighting candles, dramatic presentations or readings, etc.) shall be allowed in the service other than the following exceptions: making of announcements, recognizing of families who wish to place membership with the congregation, giving of Bibles to graduates or other special people, or other such special activities that shall be deemed as appropriate for the worship service.
10. It is permissible for congregations to have salaried preachers and other paid employees (such as youth ministers, education ministers, secretaries, janitors, etc.).
11. Acceptable designations for preachers shall be the following: ministers, evangelists, or gospel preachers. Generally speaking, all preaching can be called gospel preaching regardless of the subject. Sermons shall typically be ended with an invitation to be baptized or to rededicate ones life to the Lord.
12. The Lords Supper shall be observed every first day of the week, and it cannot be observed on any day other than the first day of the week (nor at any function other than one specified as a formal worship service). If the congregation chooses to have another worship service later in the day, the Lords Supper shall then be observed again. However, only those who were not at the earlier service (or who otherwise did not already partake) are expected to partake. These same persons are to be given the opportunity to put an offering in the collection plate. These two acts of worship can be done in the presence of others who merely watch, or it can be done in a separate assembly apart from other Christians.
13. The Lords Supper shall consist of the following (and in this order): 1) a prayer of thanksgiving for the bread (which must be unleavened); 2) the distributing of the bread; 3) a prayer of thanksgiving for the fruit of the vine; and, 4) the distributing of the fruit of the vine.
14. Those who have not been baptized shall not be allowed to conduct any public part of the service. There is one exception to this rule: young boys who have not yet been immersed may be permitted to read Scripture in the general assembly or to lead singing or prayers in a special assembly for the purpose of training such boys.
15. Those who have not been baptized shall be allowed to participate in the worship by listening to the prayers and the preaching. They are further allowed to actively participate by joining in the singing and by putting money in the collection plate. They are not, however, allowed to partake of the Lords Supper.
16. The music of the worship assembly shall be limited to the vocal expression of words. No humming or other non-worded sounds are permitted. The use of harmonious or other singing shall be deemed as fulfilling the pattern of chanting as found in the early church.
17. No instrument of music shall be used at any time in the worship other than to play the first note or key of a song before the singing of that song. The use of a song leader is permitted, as is the use of a microphone for him. Song books or other such aids are also permitted. However, it is forbidden for more than one person to help in leading the singing, and no voice other than that of the one song leaders may be amplified by artificial means.
18. Singing shall at all times be congregational; at no time is it permitted for one person or group of persons to sing while another merely listens, other than at those brief times when a song is written accordingly. In other words, it is permissible for different people to sing different parts at different times during a song, provided that all members sing at some point during the song and it can reasonably be said that they all sang together.
19. If a congregation wishes to permit a separate group (such as a chorus) to sing to the congregation, it must be done in a separate assembly, or at least after what is considered the closing prayer of the worship assembly. It is permitted for the chorus to sing, read Scripture, and end with a closing prayer, but this shall not be considered as a time of worship, nor shall any individual in the audience allow their thoughts or feelings to be intended as a worship unto God. It is merely a performance for entertainment value; the fact that songs, hymns, and spiritual songs are being sung is inconsequential. If a woman should be used to lead the group, she is not permitted to speak until after the close of this non-worship service.
20. There shall be no clapping, raising of hands, or any other gesture or indecent or disorderly action during the worship service. However, a congregation is allowed to suspend this rule during special child-oriented services such as Vacation Bible Schools or Youth Rallies.
21. During the worship assembly, men are allowed (but not required) to say aloud amen or some other similar word or phrase as long as such is done decently and in order. Expressions such as Praise the Lord would technically be permitted, but are not recommended.
22. A collection of money is to be taken every first day of the week. Each Christian is to give as he purposes in his heart, keeping in mind the amount generally required under the Old Law. The money collected shall be put into a church treasury and referred to as the Lords money, but it can be used for a variety of purposes such as church buildings, utility bills, employee salaries, landscaping, etc. (all at the discretion of the elders). Funds cannot be obtained and deposited into the church treasury by any other means than by free will offerings. Fundraisers of any kind are forbidden.
23. The elders of a congregation may choose to have more than one regular assembly during each week. If so, attendance by all members at all of these assemblies is required unless they are prevented from doing so due to illness, work, or some other good reason. Those who no longer attend any assembly on a regular basis shall be deemed as being unfaithful and shall eventually be disfellowshipped (this shall typically be comprised of declaring such in a worship assembly and in a letter sent to the person being disfellowshipped).
24. Women are allowed to teach other women or children. They may not teach male children who have been baptized. Women may speak aloud in any Bible class (while still recognizing the authority of the man), but not during the formal worship service (other than during the announcement period).
25. The business of each congregation shall be conducted by one of two methods: 1) a plurality of elders and deacons; or, 2) a mens business meeting. The first is the preferred option, but it is not required if the congregation cannot find at least two men willing or able to fulfill the responsibility. Elders and deacons must fit the qualifications listed by Paul, the main difference being that elders have to have children who have been baptized, while deacons just have to have children. Those men who are needed to serve as deacons but do not technically fit the qualifications can still be used as long as their title is changed (ministry leader, etc.). Women may serve in an appropriate way but are not to be called deaconesses.
26. There shall be no organization of the church beyond that of the local congregation. However, conformity of beliefs can be maintained through brotherhood lectureships, publications, universities, etc.
27. Elders have authority only over the local congregation. However, there are some exceptions to this rule. An eldership can take upon itself (with approval by the other party or parties) the oversight of such things as congregations with few members considered to be in a mission area, church workers in mission areas, or other similar works deemed to be in need of the oversight of an eldership.
28. A plurality of congregations may combine money from their respective treasuries for the purpose of evangelistic efforts in another location. At no time, however, can this effort be conducted or organized in such a way as to be construed as a missionary society.
29. Divorced persons are to be a welcome part of the congregation. However, those divorced persons who wish to marry again, or those who have already been divorced and married again, must be investigated by the church (or its designee) in order to determine if their marriage (or pending marriage) has been preceded by a Scriptural divorce (that being one where the other person committed adultery either before or after the divorce). Those deemed to be in unscriptural marriages are expected to get a divorce in order to remain in good standing with God and the church.
30. All major doctrinal issues must be understood and taught without error. This includes (but not necessarily limited to): that we are not predestined to salvation, that it is possible for a Christian to lose his/her salvation, that speaking in tongues and other such miraculous gifts came to an end at the completion of the writing of the NT, that there will be no Rapture nor 1000 year reign of Christ, and that Heaven and Hell are literal. However, this requirement of perfect understanding shall not apply to the issue of the indwelling and operation of the Holy Spirit.
31. The preaching of these rules and correct doctrinal positions shall be deemed and denoted as preaching the truth. As noted above, people who do not understand these rules (and thus fail to follow them perfectly) shall be deemed as not truly loving God nor the truth.
32. These rules shall be observed without variation of any kind. Anyone who fails to know and follow these rules perfectly is deemed to be lost eternally unless he/she repents. The grace of God shall not be thought to be extended for any misunderstanding or noncompliance. However, moral imperfection (sin) shall be excused (covered by grace) provided the person regularly prays and asks for forgiveness.
33. Any group who fails to abide by these rules in their entirety is to be called a denomination. Anyone who attends a denomination is committing the sin of denominationalism.
(I have removed the symbol that offends you out of respect)
Re: Direct Commands and the Law of Silence (part 2)
|January 7 2003, 10:34 PM |
I didn't include these in the first post because I thought they were a "notch" below the first group. Could you or any others shed some light on these also?
1. observing Christmas or other holidays
2. fruit of the vine must be fermented/not fermented
3. one cup vs. multiple cups
4. no kitchen or eating in the building
5. cannot give to non-Christians, orphan homes, etc.
6. non-baptized not allowed to read Scripture
7. no separated classes
8. Bible versions
9. taking of oaths
10. serving in the military
11. inflicting capital punishment
12. using force to defend oneself or others
13. serving as a government official
14. lifting hands while singing
15. joining a ministerial alliance
16. how God answers prayer
18. who selects and appoints elders
19. singing as the emblems are passed
20. use of church buildings for secular activities
21. building of fellowship halls, gymnasiums, etc.
22. use of an instrument in "church" weddings
23. youth directors, youth rallies, youth camps
24. the six days of creation being literal days
25. the operation of Christian hospitals
26. ministers of education, ministers of music, etc.
27. the baptismal "formula"
28. formal confession before baptism
29. dedicating babies
30. signing contribution pledge cards
31. women wearing shorts and slacks
32. women working outside the home
33. Children's Bible Hour
34. bussing children to services
35. degrees of reward and punishment
36. dress code for men serving the Lord's Supper
Re: direct commands
|January 8 2003, 10:15 AM |
Jim, let me pick up one of these--I'm still getting a nap this morning.
I remember reading Lynn Anderson as He Navigated Highland into troubled waters. I think that he spoke of spending 8 or more years conditioning the church to be able to Do the Lord's Supper and TOLERATE some singing while others wanted to worship IN THE SPIRIT.
So, this has been a major SOWING OF DISCORD.
Just this week I was asked for the name of the author of a posted piece I did on the subject: The lady had an AUDIENCE with her elders this week to discuss the issue so possibly they would not have to leave their decades-old church relationship.
Here is the link to a very quick study although common decency should not need PROOF.
Law of Silence
|January 8 2003, 4:33 PM |
Jim, I had already received my REVELATION but after food and a nap I now have the energy NOT to play your SOWING DISCORD GAME. You just HACK at anyone who tries to address the problems covered by this forum. By SOWING TARES I believe that you intend to try to take the attention off the real problems. That is called Infiltrating and Diverting. The owner of this forum would probably tell you how to set up a forum to construct a CREED which is assuredly in effect on many points even at Madison.
The issue here is what has DELIBERATELY DIVIDED churches of Christ well beyond your list.
You upped the number from 27 separate SECTS of churches of Christ divided over issues to 36. Here is another one just as profound as what seems to mentally dissociate the new anti-church of Christism. You missed the DENOMINATION of those using "a cup with a handle" divided from those who use "a cup without a handle." The difference, JQ, is vital because "everyone knows that a cup hath a handle."
Now, here is WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM as the are wont to say:
To Wit, Dallas Burdette of Grace Centered Magazine parroting Shelly, Maxey and about 10 or eleven who chant the same MANTRA as if they came out of one mind.
"The Churches of Christ, as a whole, are hopelessly divided over the so-called "worship service" with its five prescribed rituals, namely: praying, singing, preaching, communion (Lord's Supper), and contribution. Out of the present concept of worship has developed a philosophy that has the Churches of Christ deadlocked into endless turmoil.
"As one reads many Church of Christ journals, one quickly perceives that the church has degenerated into a battlefield. It is virtually a war zone. What has created such fighting within the Churches of Christ? Pattern theology is the culprit. Of the twenty-five or more divisions within the Churches of Christ, the various divisions exist over the exact blueprint or pattern to be observed in carrying out the five rituals.
What Burdette, Shelly etc. spouting GRACE fail to tell you is that THEY sowed the tares and then pretend to be surprized when the warefare rages. See this one for some other data.
Following the First Great American Awakening on the edge of witchcraft like the new Grace system:
"Historian C. C. Goen has painstakingly identified 321 separations of one kind or another by these New Lights. Some of these splits were healed rapidly. Others led to the continuation of "Separate Congregational', churches. But most eventually became BAPTIST congregations. Baptists like Isaac Backus often appreciated Edwards and his theology.
Because the church of Christ is made up of congregational groups, to suggest 25 divisions has just been hatched up in order to sow discord.
Officially, the Restoration Movement is classed as three groups while Baptists are classed as 27 separate groups. If we use the Burdette multiplier that means 225 separate Baptist denominations.
Counting all of the minor Baptist "denominations" there are 146 separate groups: the Burdette multiplier would make that 1216 separate Baptist groups defined by some Burdette twist.
But it is a fact that churches of Christ are part of NO group.
So MOTHER TRUTH cannot say that churches of Christ are hopelessly divided when there is not a SINGLE DENOMINATION wearing the name "churches of Christ." But, as we have noted, PostModernism which sounds like LYING to us old timers is a NEW way of thinking directly repudiating the olden Bible
When truth awakens one recognizes that there are ZERO denominations among churches of Christ. If there were a thousand congregations then one would find 1000 distinctions allowed by God and the first amendment. However, it is dishonest to suggest that this growing list constitutes divided groups.
We were ALL one cuppers and many denominations use the single chalice (wiped between sips). Our group CONVERTED when TB ran rampant through the community. Why should you be concerned if a group exercises its rights to a special practice and remains aloof from you? There is nothing in the Hohenwald church charter which makes it remotely important to BROTHERLY BOND with another state group and try to IMPORT just to sow discord? Its work is in Hohenwald and it has no need to FELLOWSHIP AND ENDORSE instrumental groups or fall under the Shelly RACA list.
Jim, you may have a pointey head or something which prevents you from confronting any Biblical or historical evidence head on but to MOCK IT. I have no interest in or intention of following the Red Herring trail you are laying. Your creed seems to mock. As to finding Christ you cannot find Him and mock His word: he will plug your ears and poke out your eyes lest you hear and obey (matthew 13; 2 Cor 3).
I am so sad that you did not include: "Can God create a rock He cannot lift"?
re: Law of Silence
|January 9 2003, 1:41 AM |
I can appreciate your response and sincere decline to comment further.
What do you call the porcelain or china receptical that tea is consumed from in a Chinese restaurant? It has no handle. I wonder what it is called. I'll stop tomorrow on my way to NC and find out. I'll let you know next time.
How'd you know I was a "cone head?" I guess it takes one to know one.
<")))>< <")))>< <")))><
.....<>< <>< <>< <><
........<>< <>< <><
My fish bowl!
Not from the Star Trek Movie.....
|January 14 2003, 10:20 PM |
JQ, Man, you are right on. KS has NO ANSWER to those that refute him. All he can do is ramble incessantly hoping that you will get so confused by his post that you will assume he reBUTted your question.
Your list of doctrinal stances was rather amusing. I would just as soon get rid of most of them and just WORSHIP JESUS. Where did we come up with dress codes and the like. I would wager(oops no gambling either!)that most of the early followers were garbed in dirty tatterd clothing. Imagine Paul or Peter "serving" communion in one of our churches today! They would be run out of most of our "church buildings". And, they would promptly shake the dust off of their feet and attend the nearest Methodist or (God forbid) BAPTIST church. Although they all have the same "doctrinal" problems that we do.
In fact, our whole way of "doing worship" including communion would be foriegn to them. They took communion as a MEAL around a table TOGETHER FACING EACH OTHER! Imagine that today. We cannot even look at each other because we feel that we must look down and EXAMINE ourselves to make sure we are WORTHY to take the bread and cup.
Well, I am doing a Kenny right now so I will leave you with that.
THINGS UNKNOWN TO SCRIPTURE
|October 24 2003, 5:03 AM |
It is amazing how many practices common to modern churches are foreign to God's Word.
The Bible knows nothing of denominationalism. This popular concept dominates America's religious scene. Hundreds of different kinds of churches hold different doctrines, wear different names, advocate different ways of salvation, worship in different manners and compete for members with wasteful duplication of resources. Yet the New Testament tells us that Christ established but one church (Matt. 16:18). It is plainly called "one body"(Eph. 4:4; 1:22). Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one as He and His Father are one (John 17:20). He exhorts us all to speak the same things and that there be no divisions among us (I Cor. 1:10). Those that cause divisions in the body of Christ are to be rejected (Rom. 16: 17). How tragic that church leaders have institutionalized religious division and declared it to be respectable.
Scripture knows nothing of church creeds, written by men, to regulate Christian belief and practice. We must obey the will of God (Matt. 7:21). The words of Jesus will judge us (John 12:48). Worship based on the doctrines and commandments of men is declared to be vain (Matt. 15:9). Christ's New Testament is sufficient for every Christian need (II Tim. 3:16-17).
The Word of God knows nothing of administrative councils or governing bodies that control His church. Christ is head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22). He ordained that each congregation has its own elders and deacons (Acts 14:23; I Tim. 3:1-13). Such organizations are usurpations of his authority.
God's word knows nothing of "salvation by faith only." This most popular Protestant belief is in direct conflict with God's expressed will. James wrote, "Ye see that by works a man is justified and not by faith only" (Jas. 2:24).
It is truly amazing that some folks think they know more about how to run God's business than the Creator Himself. For their presumption they will one day have a rude awakening.
WHAT ABOUT RAISING HANDS IN PRAYER AND RESPONSIVE READINGS?
|December 6 2003, 5:12 AM |
Dear Bro. Waddey:
Question: What does the Bible say about the practice of having responsive readings and lifting up of hands during worship? ZB ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As to responsive readings, I see nothing wrong with such. It seems to me it would be very much like all singing together. It is something we are not used to doing, but it is a practice that has been observed around the world for hundreds of years. Such practices that are neither right nor wrong must not be allowed to become occasions of discord and division.
Lifting up of hands was a "posture" of prayer common among Jews in Bible times. "And Ezra blessed Jehovah...and all the people answered, Amen...with the lifting up of their hands and they bowed their heads and worshiped Jehovah..." (Neh. 8:6). "Let the men pray in every place, lifting up holy hands..." (I Tim. 2:8). Many other verses reflect this practice. Again this is something we have not traditionally done, but that does not make it wrong to do so. Think of it just as kneeling in prayer. Few churches do so in worship today, but a hundred years ago almost all of our churches knelt in prayer. No one should make of this an issue that causes harm to the church. We can worship acceptably without doing so. If to insist on this practice we cause confusion and division that in itself is wrong.
THOUGHTS ON THE SILENCE OF SCRIPTURE
|December 11 2003, 6:21 AM |
A brother from New England wrote the following lines in response to a recent article on the Silence of the Scriptures:
"We deny the authority of silence. It is unscriptural and divisive"
"The fact is that never once in the sacred scripture is this law...ever mentioned"
"The so-called authority of silence' is such a creed, dreamed up by sectarians within our heritage and saddled upon the people of God."
"We do it to uphold the traditions of our fathers who were often good but ignorant men living on the frontier."
"It is impossible to remain shackled to the past. The nerveless fingers on the skeletal hands of our fathers reaching from the sepulcher must relinquish their grip upon us.
"It is also important to recognize that neither permission nor prohibition is part of the nature of Scripture..."
The sacred principle he refers to and rejects is demonstrated in numerous places in God's Holy Word. It is seen in God's commands to Noah regarding the Ark. Could he have built it by a different scale and still been blest" (Gen. 6:13-22). It was applied in the case of Nadab and Abihu who offered strange, i.e., unauthorized fire in their ministrations before God (Lev. 10:1-10). Again it was enforced when David transported the Ark of God by a method different from that ordained (I Chron. 13:6-10). It was expressed by the apostles who wrote concerning certain Jewish preachers who were commanding Gentiles to be circumcised, "We have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you wit words...to whom we gave no commandment" (Act. 15: 24).
Dear Bro. S B:
Thanks for taking time to share with me your thoughts about the silence of the Scriptures. I take it you would have not problem with the use of incense, counting beads, burning sacred candles, clergy garments, infant baptism, rock bands, buttermilk and cornbread for communion just to mention a few items that come to mind.
While today you hold membership in a church of Christ, tomorrow you may well be at home in a church that someone other than Christ established. After all he did not forbid men to start their own churches, did he? The ideas you are advocating are precisely those advocated by the brethren who led so many members of the Restoration Movement into what is now the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination. You could easily move into their fellowship. They would gladly welcome you and you would have no basis to question any of their practices.
Where your views take hold, the concept of restoring New Testament Christianity will surely die out. How tragic to be part of such destruction. If you wish to stay among our people, I pray that you will rethink your attitude towards the authority of God's Word.
Sincerely in Christ,
JESUS OBEYED THE LAW OF SILENCE
|December 11 2003, 9:22 AM |
God never told the Israelites: "Now, after I have given you a covenant of grace--The Book of the Covenant--I don't want you to rise up to PLAY" where PLAY means MUSICAL IDOLATRY. But, when they DID, God gave them THE BOOK OF THE LAW and answered their prayer: turned them over to worship the starry host."
Paul in 2 Corinthians 3 says that the JEWS were still blind and deaf (explained in Isa 6 and 29) when MOSES was read. They would not be able to COMPREHEND the deep mysteries until they turned to Jesus Christ for the cleansing of their spirit. Over at Smith Springs they can read the PREDESTINATION passages and be TOTALLY blind to Paul explaining it to mean the salvation of BOTH Jews and Gentiles.
SO WE KNOW THAT IT IS TRUE that God was virtually silent until Jesus came:
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. Deut 18:19
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name,
....which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that PROPHET shall DIE. Deut 18:20
JESUS DEFINED HIS ROLE A SON TO INCLUDE NOT SPEAKING ANYTHING HE HAD NOT HEARD FROM THE FATHER. Son spoke where the Father spoke and was SILENT when the FATHER was silent. Pretty powerful for BELIEVERS.
Oh, some singy clappy with a whiney piney heart gonna say, "But YOU have toilet paper." JUST Satanic diversion from the MAJOR ISSUES.
Paul obeyed in his teaching and which Paul commanded for us:
"Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit,
so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying,
Do not go beyond what is written then you will not take pride in one man over against another." 1 Corinthians 4:6
IT IS THE PROMOTERS OF EFFEMINATE MUSIC WHO USE THE LAW OF SILENCE:
"God never saith: THOU SHALT NOT use an organ." Therefore, we GONNA add an organ knowing WE GONNA sow discord and chase off old servant J. W. McGarvey."
LITERATE BIBLE students can hear God warning about instruments to SEXUALLY SEDUCE beginning in the garden of Eden and ending in Revelation 18. Therefore, NO ONE in hitory every THOUGHT of finding proof for instruments in the Bible because they knew that God WAS NOT SILENT.
CATHOLICS UNDERSTOOD THE LAW OF SILENCE: THEY SIMPLY GAVE THEMSELVES AUTHORITY TO VIOLATE IT. SPEAKING WHERE THE BIBLE SPEAKS AND BEING SILENT WHERE THE BIBLE IS SILENT IS AS OLD AS THE CHURCH.
Chapter XV.-Exhortation to Confess Christ by Silence as Well as Speech.
"It is better for a man to be silent and be [a Christian], than to talk and not to be one. It is good to teach, if he who speaks also acts.
"There is then one Teacher, who spake and it was done; while even those things which He did in silence are worthy of the Father.
"He who possesses the word of Jesus, is truly able to hear even His very silence, that he may be perfect, and may both act as he speaks, and be recognised by his silence.
"There is nothing which is hid from God, but our very secrets are near to Him.
"Let us therefore do all things as those who have Him dwelling in us, that we may be His temples,and He may be in us as our God, which indeed He is, and will manifest Himself before our faces. Wherefore we justly love Him.
Even the word SELAH is not thought to be a signal for everyone to be silent and meditate on the verse READ.
|December 11 2003, 3:16 PM |
Even the word SELAH is not thought to be a signal for everyone to be silent and meditate on the verse READ
Even the word SELAH is NOW thought to be a signal for everyone to be silent and meditate on the verse READ
|December 20 2003, 6:55 PM |
One of the values of reading scholars prior to Gomer Pyle is that MOST OF THE TIME you find that the TROUBLERS IN ISRAEL with their Phds from stolen universities taught to be Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators, just LIE about the Bible. The specific is to make fun of PATTERNS which DENIES God the right to command His creatures.
They claim to be AMONG THE SCHOLARS and cannot even quote the Bible or history without lying. Why, if they want to STEAL the universities they don't have to lie just to get the pittance from churches of Christ who turn their children into HOSTILE AGENTS.
Here is one I ran across just tonight: you cannot understand if you don't STUDY.
Clement of Alexander (for whatever he had wrong)
b. AD 150, Athens
d. between 211 and 215
For the whole of piety is hortatory, engendering in the KINDRED faculty of REASON a YEARNING after TRUE LIFE now and to come. But now, being at once CURATIVE and PRECEPTIVE, following in His OWN steps, He makes what had been prescribed the subject of persuasion, promising the CURE of the passions within us.
Let us then designate this WORD appropriately by the one name Tutor (or Poedagogue, or Instructor).
The Instructor being practical, not theoretical, His aim is thus to IMPROVE the SOUL, not to teach, and to train it up to a virtuous, not to an intellectual life. Although this same word is DIDACTIC, but not in the present instance.
For the WORD which, in matters of "DOCTRINE," EXPLAINS and REVEALS, is that whose province it is to TEACH.
But our EDUCATOR (Gal. iii. 24) being practical, first exhorts to the attainment of right dispositions and character,
...and then PERSUADES us to the energetic practice of our duties,
...enjoining on us "PURE COMMANDS,"
...and EXHIBITING to such as come after representations of those who FORMERLY WANDERED in error.
Both are of the highest utility,-that which assumes the form of COUNSELLING to OBEDIENCE,
...and that which is presented in the form of "EXAMPLE";
...which latter is of TWO kinds, corresponding to the former duality,-
....the ONE having for its purpose that we should CHOOSE and IMITATE the good,
....and the other that we should REJECT and TURN AWAY from the OPPOSITE.
Hence accordingly ensues the HEALING of our passions, in consequence of the assuagements of those examples;
....the Paedagogue strengthening our souls, and by His benign "COMMANDS," as by gentle MEDICINES, guiding the sick to the perfect knowledge of the TRUTH.
Chapter II.-Our Instructor's Treatment of Our Sins.
Now, O you, my children, our INSTRUCTOR is like His Father God, whose SON He is, SINLESS, blameless, and with a soul devoid of passion;
God IN THE FORM OF man, stainless, the minister of His Father's will, the Word who IS God, who is IN the Father, who is at the Father's right hand, and with the form of God IS GOD.
He is to us a spotless image; to Him we are to try with all our might to ASSIMILATE our SOULS.
The people who DENY this have DENIED that Christ came in the flesh and lives with us IN and AS the Spirit. They are filled with the SPIRIT OF SATAN to tell you that a Holy God WAS UNABLE to keep the WORD from loosing ALL of its power but "seven facts ABOUT JESUS."
One who is IN Christ is a Disciple: he has and is being DISCIPLED by Baptism and teaching what JESUS COMMANDED. Only DISCIPLES are Christians. If you see CHURCH as giving to God who PLANNED to give to you as the ONLY TEACHER, then you are deep into paganism. God is NOT IN NEED and cannot, like all pagans, be PROPPED up by singing praise songs or doing acts DEVOID of the Word being "taught as it has been taught."
Religion--all of it--belongs to Satan. The church is the Synagogue of Christ: a School of the Bible. It has no praise service anymore than the school teaching you to be a mechanic fills the class time with, singing and music and a text book CUT UP into bits and pieces. But, then, Paul said that "fools love to be fooled."
God is God and we are not. Anyone who denies God the right to command you to do something without making you JUDGMENTAL, SECTARIAN, LEGALISTIC BROTHER KILLERS is picking your pockets--and you deserve them one and all.