"Not of Works"
|December 29 2003, 6:11 PM |
I cant sit here and agree when you say the word knows nothing of "salvation by faith only".
Well it certainly isnt of works, otherwise every works based religion could lay claim to salvation.
Ephesians 2: 8-9 says
"For by GRACE yea are saved through FAITH; and that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT of GOD"
"NOT OF WORKS; lest any man should boast.
Of course James was reproving those who CLAIMED to have faith but had no life or works pointing to the FAITH they claimed to have.
He made it clear such is a dead faith and did a good job of it. If you dont have works you obviously dont have a true faith.
However, it is a grave error to lean at all on your works or think they have anything to do with your salvation.
As the Bible says: if it is of WORKS, then GRACE is no longer GRACE.
I think too many on here have a Catholic viewpoint of grace.
Not of works? Certainly. Who says otherwise?
|December 29 2003, 10:37 PM |
David, you are afflicted with Whiteitis: you just leap over the threshold of Ephesians two and land on the ZWINGLI faith only which didn't exist for the first 1525 years. Without intending to be nasty this is the Baptists INFILTRATE and DIVERT from Promise Keepers and the Saddleback Purpose Driven Church. Let's wipe the fog off the eyes and please repent for just ignoring God when He is speaking through the Word. Because a faithful teacher "teaches that which has been taught," it is TRAGIC when unbelievers fill the pulpit when they are willing to TRASH the first part of Ephesians to just to HELP PEOPLE TURN AWAY FROM JESUS CHRIST.
AND you hath he QUICKENED
, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Eph 2:1
We are not QUICKENED or, as Bruce White claims, "saved by FAITH in GRACE." We were quickened when we DIED in that FORM of doctrine in Romans 6 where Baptism is the INSTEAD OF having to die on the cross, like the Thief, for your own sins.
Suzoopoieo (g4806) sood-zo-op-oy- eh'-o; from 4862 and 2227; to reanimate conjointly with (fig.): - quicken together
PARALLEL STATEMENT BY THE SAME PAUL TO THE COLOSSIANS
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: Col. 2:10
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Col. 2:11
There is no hint that one puts off the body of sins by just believing. Therefore, remission of sins occurs at the time and place of baptism:
BURIED with him in BAPTISM, wherein also ye are RISEN with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. Col. 2:12
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he QUICKENED together with him, having FORGIVEN you all trespasses; Col.2:13
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world,
..according to the prince of the power of the air,
..the spirit (An unholy spirit) that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Eph 2:2
HERE PAUL DEFINES MUSICAL WORSHIP WITH WHICH THEY "FLUTED DOWN" THE WINE SO THAT THEY COULD NOT SPEAK THE WORDS OF CHRIST IN SONG AND SERMON.
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the LUSTS of our flesh, fulfilling the DESIRES of the FLESH and of the MIND; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Eph 2: 3
: But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Eph 2: 4
: Even when we were dead in sins, hath QUICKENED (regenerated) us together WITH Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Ephesians 2:5
And hath RAISED
us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places IN Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6
THE EPHESIAN AND COLOSSIAN CONNECTS BEING RISEN IN CHRIST TO BAPTISM NOW, in Romans 6
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom 6:2
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom 6:3
Therefore we are buried WITH him by baptism into death:
that like as Christ was RAISED up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
even so we also should walk in newness of life. Rom 6:4
One with a NEW LIFE or regenerated Spirit is always connected to WATER BAPTISM because that is where the Incarnate God of the Universe put it. Mocking Baptism is consistent with the CORE GOSPEL where NOTHING of value has survived but the SEVEN facts ABOUT Jesus. JUST JESUS: not Just Jesus in Whom dwelled FULL DEITY. Believers Baptism REJECTS the FIRST shed blood of Jesus Christ.
For if we have been PLANTED together in the LIKENESS (Form) of his death,
we shall be also (RISEN) in the LIKENESS of his resurrection: Rom 6:5
Knowing this, that our old man is CRUCIFIED with him, that the body of SIN might be DESTROYED, that henceforth we should not serve sin. Rom 6:6 [not be in BONDAGE]
FAITH ONLY NEVER DESTROYS SIN.
The Romans obeyed a FORM of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you. Ro.6:17
Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. Rom 6:18
God in Christ said that FAITH and BAPTISM saves. Peter said that Faith which REPENTS and is BAPTIZED saves. THEN Christ puts HIS own Spirit in us so that we have A holy spirit. Mocking Baptism is MOCKING God who refuses to DWELL WITHIN the Spirit of those who are traitors by DISOBEYING what He has commanded. They treat God worse than a human.
Righteousness means justification. We are justified when we believe because we affirm God's Truth. However, we are also justified when we OBEY a form of doctrine and AFTER we are made FREE OF SIN. Every time God told Abraham to do something, Abraham obeyed God's laws and decrees. As a result, God approved of Abraham because FAITH obeyed each time God commanded. I will post some more of NOAH and BAPTISM to prove that Peter said of Noah exactly what Jesus Christ said of BAPTISM and the REMISSION of sins or SALVATION.
Paul teaches BAPTISM as the only way to obey that FORM of Doctrine or the ANTI-type of the saving and bestowing SONSHIP on the TINY REMNANT who can HEAR the first part of Ephesians two. Anti means INSTEAD OF. Contrary to the deliberate MISLEADERS the Thief on the cross was not SAVED by just asking it of Jesus: The thief died on a cross for HIS OWN SINS and that still only got him into the unsaved side of paradise.
Next, I want to show you that in MOCKING baptism or calling Jesus a LIAR for connecting salvation to faith and baptism, you DELIBERATELY refuse to continue in a SHOWING ACT at baptism the very meaning of grace through faith.
What have I said? First, the SAME Paul defines baptism in Ephesians 2 which Bruce White LEAPED OVER in order to call God and Paul liars.
We have shown from parallel expressions that Paul was speaking of BAPTISM as the ONLY way for God's GRACE which He bestows to THOSE OF FAITH is DISPENSED as a way to WASH and make us CHILDREN of God suitable to be added to the kingdom of Christ.
I truly shudder for those who feel COMPELLED to explain away the clear statements of prophecy, of God in Christ, of Paul in numerous places, of Paul and 1535 years of Church history. The only Biblical explanation is not pretty. Baptism is the WORK OF GOD who washes or sprinkles out foul human spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit able to comprehend Christ the Spirit. Calling the work of God a work of man is awesome.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 184.108.40.206 on Dec 30, 2003 6:27 PM|
Re: Not of works (by David Keys, December 29 2003, 6:11 PM)
|December 30 2003, 5:30 AM |
Verse 8 of Ephesians speaks of the pre-conversion status of the brethren at Ephesus. Various translations render the verse as a preceding occurrence or event: God SAVED you by his special favor when you BELIEVED
by grace you HAVE BEEN SAVED through faith
you WERE SAVED by faith in God
you HAVE BEEN SAVED by Gods love and kindness because you BELIEVED
Verse 10 of Ephesians, in contrast, speaks of the post-conversion status of the brethren: FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS.
While it is true that the Christians were saved by grace through faith, they were not saved by faith only. The absence of the key word ONLY certainly does not negate the fact that based on other passages, the unconverted would have to not only believe, but also repent and be baptized in order to receive redemption in the blood of the Lambwhich is the forgiveness of sins.
Again, contrast verse 8 and verse 10:
Works of righteousness on the part of the individual are totally null and void, useless or unnecessary for the unconverted to receive redemption or salvation. But, he must meet the conditions (faith, repentance, baptism) necessary to receive salvation.
Works of righteousness on the part of the Christian, on the other hand, are necessary, along with faith, toward or unto eternal salvation. This is qualified in verse 10 where it says, we are his workmanship created unto good works. James 2 seconds the motion: faith without works is dead. Heb. 5:8,9eternal salvation is unto all them that obey Him.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 220.127.116.11 on Dec 30, 2003 9:52 AM|
Tune Up Needed?
|April 12 2016, 4:52 PM |
Ken, Brother Wayne Jackson silenced you twelve years ago on this subject. Is it time for a tune up?
The Silence Argument
|January 8 2004, 5:41 AM |
The Silence Argument
by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Archives
Friday, August 8, 2003
Is the silence of the Scripures authoritative. The Bible itself states that it is.
One of the strongest arguments against the use of instrumental music in Christian worship is the silence principle. This is the concept that when God is silent about a matter, man is not at liberty to presume
, and so to act without divine authority. There is no New Testament authority for the use of instrumental music in Christian worship.
Is the silence argument valid? Yes it is. On many occasions in the Old Testament period, the Hebrews were prohibited from engaging in various forms of worship which God had commanded not (cf. Lev. 10:1; Dt. 17:3; Jer. 7:31).
Additionally, the writer of the book of Hebrews plainly says that Jesus could not function as a priest while on earth (Heb. 8:4), because the Lord was from the tribe of Judah, and the law spake nothing (i.e., was silent) regarding priests from Judah (Heb. 7:14).
For many years the Independent Christian Church has ridiculed this argument. These folks allege that silence is not prohibitive. One of the leaders of the movement is Given O. Blakely. In a recent issue of Banner of Truth (July, 1996), Blakely addressed the matter.
Gods silence is not a governing factor in matters pertaining to life and godliness. The whole idea of silence, as those of the anti-instrumentalist position have used the term, requires the interpretation of fallible men. If God did not say it, then how can we be sure that men have said what He meant, but did not say? How dare mortal men to take upon themselves to thus unauthorizedly speak for God?
Here is Blakelys point. We cannot use the silence argument, because God is silent about the silence argument. If God is silent about this form of argument, then it is unauthorized, and we dare not use it. That is the epitome of inconsistency.
What shall be our response? In the first place, as indicated above, God has not been silent about the silence principle. One must not go beyond that which has been written (1 Cor. 4:6; 2 Jn. 9).
Secondly, what sort of logic is the gentleman using? If one dare not employ the silence argument because the Scripture is silent about this sort of reasoning (and thus it is unauthorized) then, by the same token, one dare not use the instrument in Christian worship, because the New Testament is silent concerning the instrument, and thus it is unauthorized. Surely our friend needs to reconsider his position regarding the silence principle.
|This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 18.104.22.168 on Jan 8, 2004 8:48 AM|
Tertullian Law of Silence
|April 9 2016, 1:45 PM |
But, God is NOT silent: legalists need a law which says "thou shalt not use an instrument it the WORSHIP OBSERVATION. In fact, after the fall into instrumental idolatry at Mount Sinai God sentenced Israel to captivity and death. The Monarchy during which God as promised deserted them spiritually was only a short span as God gave kings in His anger to push the Jews into captivity and death. The assembly or Church in the wilderness FORBIDS the alarm or triumph over meaning "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or speaking anything beyond the text delivered from Moses.
Tertullian De Spectaculis b 155 d 220ad.
Chapter II. The Law of Silence, Direct Commands, idolatry of talent
The Creed or Pattern of the Progressives:
Then, again, every one is ready with the argument declares that all the arguments urged in this tract are comprised in two sentences of the Apology, cap. 38.]
First Progressive Premise: that all things, as we teach, were created by God, and given to man for his use, and that they must be good, as coming all from so good a source;
Second Progressive Premise: but that among them are found the various constituent elements of the public shows, such as the horse, the lion, bodily strength, and musical voice. It cannot, then, be thought that what exists by God's own creative will is either foreign or hostile to Him;
Their Conclusion:and if it is not opposed to Him, it cannot be regarded as injurious to His worshippers, as certainly it is not foreign to them.
But, then from the Church of Christ (the Rock) in the wilderness to the book of Revelation there is nothing called a Worship Assembly for the godly.
There is no command, example or even remote inference of God calling the godly out of their REST for group singing with or without instruments. In fact, God provided no metrical "that which is written" so no one ever sang in the sense of musical melody.
ARGUMENT TWO: Beyond all doubt, too, the very buildings connected with the places of public amusement, composed as they are of rocks, stones, marbles, pillars, are things of God, who has given these various things for the earth's embellishment; nay, the very scenes are enacted under God's own heaven.
UNIVERSAL RESPONSE: How skilful a pleader seems human wisdom to herself, especially if she has the fear of losing any of her delights-any of the sweet enjoyments of worldly existence! In fact, you will find not a few whom the imperilling of their pleasures rather than their life holds back from us.
For even the weakling has no strong dread of death as a debt he knows is due by him; while the wise man does not look with contempt on pleasure, regarding it as a precious gift-in fact, the one blessedness of life, whether to philosopher or fool.
ARGUMENT THREE Now nobody denies what nobody is ignorant of-for Nature herself is teacher of it-that God is the Maker of the universe, and that it is good, and that it is man's by FREE gift of its Maker.
But having no intimate acquaintance with the Highest, knowing Him only by natural revelation, and NOT as His "friends"-afar off, and not as those who have been brought nigh to Him-
.....men cannot but be in ignorance alike of
.....What He enjoins and what He forbids in regard to the administration of His world.
They must be ignorant, too, of the hostile power which works against Him,
.....and perverts to wrong uses the things His hand has formed;
.....for you cannot know either the will or the adversary of a God you do not know.
.....We must not, then, consider merely by whom all things were made,
.....but by whom they have been perverted.
We shall find out for what use they were made at first,
.....when we find for what they were not.
|This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 22.214.171.124 on Apr 9, 2016 1:50 PM|
Re: Direct Commands and the Law of Silence
|April 12 2016, 11:07 AM |
People mock the idea that God has and exercises inclusive and exclusive authority in the limit, purpose and resource for people calling THEMSELVES together.
The ancient and modern Babylonian model which Moses begins to debunk in Genesis 1 was that men claimed that they were agents of the gods and they built towers (including Jerusalem) as the place where the gods were "housed." The Sumerians etal had a community church or commune where the seventh day was when the serfs brought their tithes including wages.
Moses inverts this where God set the PATTERN by resting on the seventh by RESTING. Sabbath means REST and was a day of worship (work) only by those who lost God's protection and were abandoned "to worship the starry host."
Baptism carries the idea of REST which is PAUO in Greek. The REST gives the workers FREEDOM FROM any one.
ABSOLUTE LAW: Psalmos is like SING. The approved examples is that if you intend to use a harp to sing TO everyone NAMES the instrument.
|April 16 2016, 10:58 AM |
I heard that Donnie and Bill are at a sabbatical retreat...together. More later.
Re: Rumor....well maybe
|April 16 2016, 1:11 PM |
Bill is elsewhere. Donnie is taking a much-needed course in religious tolerance to help him respect the beliefs of those with whom he disagrees. The course is designed not only to purge minds of that "you're-going-to-hell-if-you-don't-believe-as-I-do" attitude but also to deflate the egos of megalomaniacal fanatics.
Re: Rumor....well maybe
|April 16 2016, 4:03 PM |
My source has revealed to me that Donnie is on board with "three in one" in the Godhead. Father, Son, and Holy spirit are not different people but are God in three roles. I guess it is progress.
Scripture, I did not know you were a cigar smoker. I gave it up a while back. Keep us informed.
Re: Rumor....well maybe
|April 16 2016, 8:13 PM |
Donnie tries and would like for more people to make comments. However, when you stop posting no one comments and the stats go down.
There is no quick way to post the Biblical and historical text when someone makes a assertion by quoting verse 3d.
Re: Rumor....well maybe
|April 16 2016, 9:55 PM |
Ken said, "There is no quick way to post the Biblical and historical text when someone makes a assertion by quoting verse 3d."
I hear you Ken! I need to go. I just thought the site needed a boost. Maybe you like it as it is. It is your show and I will let you get to it. See you down the road! God bless!