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Doctrine and division

July 9 2002 at 12:33 PM
Bruce Bowman  (no login)
from IP address 66.88.101.151

Once upon a time, a few Godly men in a local community decided to establish a brand new congregation of the church of Christ. They had certain doctrinal beliefs about what the Bible says about worship, and all of those men and their friends and families were in agreement about what those beliefs were. They included, of course, singing, praying, preaching, and the Lord's Supper.

This group of Christians differed from some other congregations in that they thought having more than one room in the building they met in was literally "division in the body." This literal translation of all those "division" verses meant that they believed the Bible taught directly against having any type of separate bible study or "Sunday school." One other difference they had with some congregations was that they took Jesus' example of having one cup during communion literally?they only used one cup, and each member took a sip as it came around. But, it worked here since all involved were in agreement.

After this congregation had met for several years without any significant problem, a couple of new Christian families moved into the community, and began to worship with this same congregation. They believed, just as strongly, that children benefited from study other than the sermon while they were all together on Sunday morning. The newcomers also thought that one common cup was very unsanitary, and that having only one cup wasn't a crucial doctrinal issue.

This obviously caused some problems for the elders; they and their families had their beliefs and were forced to reevaluate them. Two services were tried for a while, but that was felt to be "division." Eventually, the original founding elders and parts of their families left to begin another congregation ten miles away.

Which "side" was right? Which "side" caused the division? Did either side really have all the answers? Did human pride get in the way? By the way, the original congregation was founded around 1940 and split about ten years later.

It would appear that doctrinal differences and personal viewpoints aren't new.

What's my point? Members of the church of Christ have historically prided themselves on having the answers?to be prepared to answer doctrinal issues when asked. After all, we're to "study to show ourselves approved," so we're not "carried about with every wind of doctrine." I believe we've become really good at tearing each other down. Is that how we really want to be known?

========================
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========================


    
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.188 on Oct 24, 2002 7:27 PM


 
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AuthorReply
Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 26 2014, 8:29 AM 


Last paragraph sums it up well and is very telling. There has been no response in over 12 years.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Doctrine and division

December 26 2014, 3:58 PM 

Just what does that have to do with the Biblical Text?

2 Cor 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number,
or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves:
but they, measuring themselves by themselves,
and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.


How does that differ from any religious institution which is not a School of the Word where the command is to PREACH the WORD (only) by READING the word. The Word is the LOGOS which means a regulative principle. It will do not good to speak about divided classes or like the Christian Churches in the NE who split over whether to end the services with a prayer or a song. Of course neither of them had any attention of SPEAKING that which is written for our learning then SPEAKING (Dicto) A hymn and then going out until the next appointed hour, next yer.

 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 26 2014, 4:21 PM 


Did you give up on the Catholic Bible (DRB) or perhaps just giving it a rest. Speak only (no singing) makes you the ultimate "change agent" in the COC.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 12:32 AM 

Just, just ask me (Donnie). happy.gif

No, I haven't given up on a very good translation of not one but two verses from the Douay-Rheims Bible (Catholic):

"And a hymn being said, they went out unto mount Olivet." (Matthew 26:30)

"And when they had said an hymn, they went forth to the mount of Olives." (Mark 14:26)

CONSISTENT.

UNINFLUENCED BY any preconceived idea.

Note: An accurate translation of specific verses from a Catholic Bible does not make me a Catholic convert. happy.gifhappy.gifhappy.gif





 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 11:02 AM 


Douay-Rheims Bible vs Other Protestant Bibles

Well one of the biggest things would be that the DR has the apocryphal books in it that protestant bibles don't have. So its more complete.

**************************

No thanks, I will pass on the DRB.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 8:07 PM 

Just,

The apocryphal books did not affect the translation of those two verses.

It is advisable to examine various translations in order to determine if a preconceived/acquired notion influences a translation or translator.

Here's another example of the need for careful examination of translated passages. As much as I love the King James Version (my favorite), the KJV contains what's been considered "spurious" as the KJV, the American KJV, Jubilee Bible 2000, etc., differ from other prominent translations as you will see below:

I John 5:7-8 --

  • For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [NIV]

  • So we have these three witnesses--the Spirit, the water, and the blood--and all three agree. [NLT]

  • For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree. [ESV]

  • For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. [NASB]

  • For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. [KJV]

    New International Version (NIV)
    New Living Translation (NLT)
    English Standard Version (ESV)
    New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    King James Bible (KJV)


Uh-oh. The KJV (1611) and the Trinity Creed (4th century).

 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 28 2014, 7:34 PM 

Donnie, why is it so important that you would dumpster dive among the apocryphal books to claim this translation on singing? You and Ken both believe the Church is authorized to sing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. [linked image]

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
23.127.32.146

Re: Doctrine and division

December 28 2014, 8:04 PM 

Just,

It was by accident. I was doing a search on the word "hymn" which, by the way, is mentioned only 4 times in the KJV/NT. The two passages I was interested in were: Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26 -- "... when they had sung a hymn...."

I really like going to the Biblehub to do parallel checking of certain verses like these two. There are at least 21 different translations when parallel-checking a verse or verses.

That's where I was shown that the Catholic version had some translation of a couple of verses done correctly after all.

(1) "... a HYMN being SAID...."
(2) "... when they had SAID an HYMN...."


Wow!!! The apostle knew what he was talking about:

(1) "... TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in ... HYMNS..." (Col. 3:16)
(2) "... SPEAKING to yourselves in ... HYMNS...." (Eph. 5:19).


I know ... I know ... the Catholics should learn more from the great apostles.


 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 11:33 AM 


Note: An accurate translation of specific verses from a Catholic Bible does not make me a Catholic convert. happy.gif X3

*********************

I agree.happy.gif I think it is a case of "cherry-picking". happy.gif I promise not to use the term "cherry-picking" again today. happy.gif




 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 1:34 PM 

Recorded history is absolute. When MEN slip from SPEAK or SAY to SING or rhetoric they are OUTED.

I love that guy in a stunning outfit prancing around debating thee empty chairs.

http://dionysia.org/greek/dionysos/thompson/dionysos.html

The NEW WINESKIN GOD "Dionysus certainly roves more than the other gods; the traditional picture of him is not one of him sitting sedately on Olympus sipping nectar and listening to the Muses (9 females) sing. Rather it is one of him roaming through the wilderness, thrysus (a reed bound with ivy and topped with a pine cone) in hand, followed by bands of ecstatic women, his Bacchants, and spreading the art of cultivation of vines and of wine-making. Other gods may leave Olympus, but it is not habitual with them as it is with dionysus.

"dionysus often seems to stand somewhere between male and female, between god and man, between death and life. He is a male god, but he is always surrounded by women, his chief worshipers.

"His worship involved transvestism and the blurring of sex roles. Men and women both dressed in long robes covered by fawnskins, and women, as bacchants, left their normal sphere of activity, the home, and danced madly on mountainsides. dionysus even looks somewhat ambiguous sexually; Pentheus in the Bacchae comments on the god's effeminacy: his long curls, his pale complexion.

 
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Scripture
(no login)
23.117.130.209

Re: Doctrine and division

December 26 2014, 5:46 PM 

The original description of churches of Christ dividing over Bible classes and one cup is a good example of

HATE LITERATURE.

It is contemptuous in that it overlooks the broad and positive influence of Churches of Christ in our culture.

 
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Just
(no login)
108.230.196.85

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 8:29 AM 


We would all like to cherry-pick our favorite doctrine and ignore the rest. Sometimes we need a full tune-up to ensure all the problems are addressed.

 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 10:08 AM 

Full Definition of HYMN

1
a : a song of praise to God
b : a metrical composition adapted for singing in a religious service
2
: a song of praise or joy
3
: something resembling a hymn : paean


When have you ever heard a hymn be SAID?

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Doctrine and division

December 27 2014, 1:22 PM 

If you had been with Jesus and the Apostles celebrating Passover FOR THE LAST TIME you would have heard a hymn hymned. The latin is DICTO: they spoke or recited a hymn. When you have all men assembled they will rarely break out in singing.

The MASSES (Ecumenical) People see the command to SPEAK the poetic but NEVER metrical learning material. They joyfully sow massive discord saying that if the Spirit OF Christ had been as smart as "we" Paul really MEANT to SING that which is not written for our learning.

Speak means SING and Psallo (a warfare or gender confused word root) and make melody UPON a guitar, flute, drum and banjo.

5603. oide, o-day´; from 103; a CHANT or “ode” (the general term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes especially a religious metrical composition, and 5568 still more specially, a Hebrew cantillation):


An ODE (prayer) or PSALMOS (prayer) cannot be Phariseed into a professional Musical Worship Team infiltrating the SCHOOL OF CHRIST where LOGOS or regulative principle OUTLAWS rhetoric, singers, instrument players, actors or dancers.

Paul commanded that we SPEAK the psalmos which Paul PICKED OUT of the possible uses of psalmos which are not definitions. If you sing a psalm you will note that the psalms added a MELODY to the SPEAK. An instrument is NEVER included unless it is SPECIFIED.

When people use

5568. psalmos, psal-mos´; from 5567; a set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode (accompanied with the VOICE, harp or other instrument; a “psalm”); collectively, the book of the Psalms: — psalm. Compare 5603.

Paul commanded SPEAK the Psalmos.
Paul commanded SPEAK the ODES.
ODE is the opposite of LEXIS a SPEAK Word. ODE is like a PSALMOS. There is no tunefulness in any of the psalms and we don't know of a group which INTENDS to obey the command to SPEAK the PSALMS (in the book) other than some Reformed Presbyterians.

The Hymn or Prayer is different from a praise but BOTH are spoken or cantillated FOR OUR LEARNING and never FOR OUR EARNING.

5215. humnos, hoom´-nos; apparently from a simpler (obsolete) form of hudeo (to celebrate; probably akin to 103; compare H5667); a “hymn” or religious ode (one of the Psalms): — hymn.

The Greek calls a HYMN a PRAYER. No one sang TUNEFULLY since melody as tunefullness belongs to the 19th century. There was no (ZERO) congregation singing until well after the Reformation. Churches of Christ can hardly be sectarian, hypocrites, legalists, fire bombers just because they refused to be FORCED to do what Christ outlawed in the wilderness.

The ONLY "staff" in the synagogue which Paul used for when we GATHER was a senior male who was the Pray-er or cantillator who READ the text without additions. A schoolboy might be allowed to READ the text with the elder OVERSEEING or looking over his shoulders to make sure he did not speak about himself or break into a song which would have gotten him hurt.

CANTOR: [Lat.,=singer], a singer or chanter, especially one who performs the solo chants of a church service. The office of cantor, at first an honorary one, originated in the Jewish synagogues, in which from early times it was the custom to appoint a lay member to represent the congregation in PRAYER.

The notation of the chants was forbidden.

In the 6th cent. poetic PRAYER forms were developed, and with them more complicated modes, or music, thus necessitating PROFESSIONAL cantors.


If a dozen of you want to gather in a private house to eat something and wish to sing A song and play A harp and pledge NOT to do it for another year you have my blessing. It's ok to use your own money to play a harpist to do the gig that's also proper. However, don't FLEECE the widow and honest workers to pay the singers and harpist 365 days a year.



 
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William Hall
(no login)
108.18.176.27

Re: Doctrine and Division

December 28 2014, 3:00 AM 


DCA,

The problem with your post is that you are using a later definition for an older term. The monitors of this site are correct in that if you go back and determine what the words meant, and what they were, speaking a "hymn" was quite in order. Our verb "to sing" is strictly Germanic in origin, and cognates are not necessarily found in all languages. You might enjoy this site:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sing

However, a verb representing singing is pretty universal. That include ancient Greek and/or Homeric Greek. But it is not the same as what we do today. In spite of what Donnie says, you can make a pretty good case for there being some melodiousness by N.T. times.

If you look at the various translations of Heb. 2:12 you will see that several do not render the verb as "sing", bur rather "proclaim" or something similar. Most translations take that verse to mean "sing" and thus propagate it, but not all. It seems that when David(?) wrote the psalm quoted in Heb. 2:12 that he used a verb definitively related to singing. It is definite that everyone understood the difference in singing and speaking, going way back, but it is not always exactly clear as it got passed along.


 
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DCA
(no login)
107.142.253.246

Re: Doctrine and Division

December 28 2014, 3:48 PM 

I disagree with you William. The basic deterrent to your analogy would be when Paul and Silas were PRAYING and SINGING.
If the songs then were not metrical, then there would be no use for both PRAYING and SINGING. The prayer being spoken, the song being metrical. SINGING and PRAYING was said and meant to differentiate between SPEAKING a prayer, and SINGING a hymn or song. Through this verse we see that if it were ONLY speaking, then only one (prayer or singing) would have been sufficient.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Doctrine and Division

December 28 2014, 9:34 PM 

Paul commanded that we SPEAK the Hymns. Paul never uses any "musical" concept in the modern sense and in the parallel in Romans 15 after silencing all of the self-pleasure including all of the musical or performing arts and crafts the direct command is to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our LEARNING" which he defined as Scripture for our comfort. Paul had the pre-postmodern benefit of learning from the synagogue where the Prophets especially were PREACHED by being READ. Too bad our kids are taught to despise the Biblical examples learned by the SECTARIANS belonging to the SECT CALLED THE WAY or ROAD. A Very, very narrow road traveled only by a Little Flock.

Recorded history understand that evil people set their lies to melodies to deceive the simple. Why would anyone want to promote any kind of performance music when they know for certain that they are sowing discord counting on the performers to keep the unlawful collection plates undisturbed.

[linked image]

 
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William Hall
(no login)
108.18.176.27

Re DCA

January 2 2015, 12:54 AM 

If we were to transliterate those passages it would say something like Paul and Silas were "praying and hymning." We do not usually think about "hymn" having a verb form. So the question is, what were they doing when they were hymning? I think it was "song like", but without very much inflection, tone, meter, etc. Probably if you listen to a Catholic high mass being sung you would be close. The old epic poems were sung, but the singing was very monotone, without emotion, etc. Singing was just the way the epics and sagas were delivered, and apparently it held the listeners attention better than an oral recitation. Note that Paul said (in translation) "I will sing with the spirit, but I will sing with the understanding also." There was something recognizable with hymning vs speaking.

But we do not "hymn" as in the first century. I doubt if we would even get the point. Since the first century we have learned how to sing in much more complex ways, and I doubt if a first century disciple would understand us, either. An that is allowing for the fact that we would be doing it in English. Like the music we sing, English had not been invented in the first century.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.20.116.93

Re: Re DCA

January 2 2015, 1:12 PM 

After 2,000 years the universities claim to have discovered the TRUE way of reading the historically-preserved text. We have noted that at the peek of pop theology John T. Willis claims that melody DEMANDS musical instruments.

The word in the Text is to SPEAK and the word for musical melody is not psallo but MELOS. Melody means to chop the members of a poetic writing into syllables where teaching or understanding is the only STATED purpose for the ONCE A WEEK assembly.

Even with the translation of MELODY into HARMONY churches of Christ have historically seen the PURPOSE as to TEACH one another.

A NEW PARADIGM which replaces the Church of Christ PATTERN allows SOME with "new spectacles" (Shelly etal) to REDEFINE words by theologians who have ADVANCED over 2,000 years. The WOMEN'S ISSUES is defined by Jeanene Reese (Tom's friend) articulates for ACU:

This new paradigm, however, has not always been realized. From mainline Protestant churches to obscure fundamentalist groups, from Roman Catholics to Pentecostals, Christians for thePAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS have dealt with men and women of all ages, classes, and ethnicity who struggle with issues of the NEW ORDER

has plagued the church for the last two millennia, first appeared in the difficulties facing


This discovery right on time for the prophesied year 2,000 (end of day 6) is articulated by the term JUST JESUS AND NOTHING MORE. Of course, they do not understand that Just Jesus was in PROPHETIC TYPE both inclusively and exclusively.

So, we have to grasp that if the NEW PARADIGM hidden for these 2,000 years says that Jesus spoke A hymn to be repeated next year then WE are commanded to sing 6 songs three times a week to four-part harmony and now with INSTRUMENTAL accompaniment.

This even TRUMPS all of the historical texts which define:

A PARADIGM is a PATTERN
Paradeig-ma , atos, to, (paradeiknumi) A. pattern, model: of an architect's mode
of the divine exemplars after which earthly things are made,
2. precedent, example
3. lesson, warning,
4. argument, proof from example,
5. in Law, leading case, precedent,

EXAMPLE

Numbers 25.4] Yahweh said to Moses, Take all the chiefs of the people, and hang them up to Yahweh before the sun, that the fierce anger of Yahweh may turn away from Israel.


UNITY demands that an end time PARADIGM must be accepted and not questioned by the PATTERNISTS who trust the text faithfully preserved for these 2,000 years. Paul still says what Paul said and the PURPOSE as we have noted is:

So that all might be SAFE and come to a knowledge of THE TRUTH.
And to silence women and modern worship teams who deny that:

THERE is one God the Father
AND one MEDIATOR (in song or sermon) the man Jesus Christ.

The PATTERNISTS who believe the Apostles understand that the the PAULINE teaching was inclusive and exclusive in the PROPHETS.

A Church of Christ is built upon or educated by the PROPHETS AND APOSTLES with Jesus made to be the Christ the ALPHA (prophets) and OMEGA (prophecies made more certain.)

You simply cannot be a Christian assembly and reject all that is PAULINE.

We traditionalists will not allow them to RETRANSLATE Jesus statement that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" even when we know we WILL BE hurt.

JUST JESUS is preached by David Young of North Boulevard as:

Christ Plus Nothing Equals Everything -- David Young

JUST CHRIST is included in the Prophets and Apostles: Jesus preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM of which He is King and said that the "Kingdom does not come with observation meaning religious observations.


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.20.116.93 on Jan 2, 2015 1:16 PM


 
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