WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK ......The Timeline (Archives)
July 20 2002 at 12:07 PM
(Login ConcernedMembers) ConcernedMembersMadison from IP address 66.20.109.83
February 2001
Most Madiosn Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher"
(click on headline to visit article)
The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians." "Many unchurched people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort, "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable...." "More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to." "There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love." "Attendance for this first Sunday was538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."
====================================================
In February of 2001 the Elders announced that a "third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed, was going to be melted into the 10:00 am or second service.
This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged.
While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshalls office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.
===================================================
February 25, 2001
Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transistion the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church, and that of "Holy Entertainment" He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about.
================================================
MARCH 2001
Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service.
Childrens sunday school has been changed from bible based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching sunday school to baptised young men.
================================================
April 13, 2001
The Elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ.
They send out a LETTER; to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.
"The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs,
give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper.
This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."
===================================================
May 2001
ConcernedMembers receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing" around with one when contacted.
The concern about a "Covenant of Membership" is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback.
They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.
==================================================
July ,2001
According to THIS ARTICLE in the Tennessean, the Elders bring in a mediator(Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr Sullivan while attending a "seminar".
Meetings are set up for the Elders. We understand they had to swear to secrecy.
Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.
It's during one of these meetings that two people from the contemporary crowd announce that they have
broken all ten commandments, with one of them calling himself a "tener".
Since this was not "confession night", some of the participants from the traditional folks took this as a threat.
It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator. He has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIELECTIC techniques to compromise a groups consensus in what ever direction is predetermined.
====================================================
Mid-August, 2001
By this time many members have left the Church.
The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was only allowed the last 6 minutes of worship time by the song leader.
Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.
===================================================
August 29, 2001
Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER
asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church
service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September
20,2001.
===================================================
August 30,2001
Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernMembers to do the mailing.
Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail.
===================================================
September 15,2001
Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT
==================================================
September 23, 2001
The members have been waiting on an announcement from the Elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ.
Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.
EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
==============================================
Sunday (09-30-01) Larry Sullivan Was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator)
Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons.
Petitions were given out to collect signatures, to dismiss the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.
Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.
==============================================
Sunday (10-14-01)
Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons.
==============================================
Sometime during this period two Elders resigned.
J.D Elliott
Bobby Mc Elhiney
==============================================
Wednesday 10-17-01
A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady; "over there with the trouble makers" "They are the mafia"
==============================================
Sometime during this period two more Elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.
==============================================
Sunday (10-21-01)
Sermon
Second in a three part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on Joy and entertainment.
The words "Corporate Worship" and Joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!
Deacons
The Deacons headed by Ben Jones nicely and in a very Godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the Church elect new leadership.
(complete transcript is below this listing)
We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down, or be disfellowshipped.
To rebuke - criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand.
To reprove - to criticize for a fault or misdeed; scold.
To rebuke/reprove Ben Jones, then Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.
To define that misdeed those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.
What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.
===================================================
Friday October 26th 2001
Flash Message coming in the next 72 hours from
the ConcernedMembers!
If you are not subscribed to the email list
do it now to receive this message.
Simply click on the below link and send a
blank email to subscribe.
=====================================================
Sunday 10-28-01
T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...O F...C H R I S T ...H A S....B E E N....H I J A C K E D ! !
Today according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them.
====================================================
November 1, 2001
The Server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since it's creation 8 weeks ago.
====================================================
November 02, 2001
Transcript of Homebuilders sunday school class. A recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy entertainment in Homebuilders Class.
Available Now Under Interviews & Transcripts
===================================================
November 4, 2001
J.R.Compton and wife members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness, and ask to have their names removed as members.
===================================================
November 7, 2001
Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis,Tn.
Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement, and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.
Posted now under Interviews & Transcripts
===================================================
November 8,2001
Rumor says there has been a new preacher hired.
More details as they are known.
===================================================
November 9, 2001
Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.
===================================================
November 20, 2001
ConcernedMembers retract a letter sent by the Elders to 683 Churches of Christ. Now Available Under Interviews & Transcripts
===================================================
November 21, 2001
Email form J.E.Choate
"And also another personal evaluation is that Buck Dozier should be the first to leave the Madison eldership. His qualifications for the work is moot at best. His past shows that he is no stranger to igniting church fires with no solutions."
==================================================
December 02, 2001 Bruce White appears to have been warmly welcomed as new minister
at the Madison Church of Christ. First sermon was about the degrees of love.
It appears that the praise team and their microphones have been turned off in the second service for the time being.
==================================================
Sunday December 16,2001 Click Here for a summary and comments on Sunday's services at 8:00am and 10:30am
================================================== December 18,2001
We understand that Buck has presented the members of the "Peacemakers"
with a list of 192 reasons Churchs split. We wonder if pagan worship practices were on the list?
That list will be published here.
================================================ Wednesday February 6th, 2002
Big Flare-up at Church Wednesday night. We understand 4 or 5 of the good and Godly Elders have resigned, leaving the Church under the control of the clapper, and Saddleback crowd.
Details will be published as they are known.
Complete details will be printed here sometime this
weekend.
===============================================
Saturday February 09,2002
After the resignation of two Elders last year, Madison Church of Christ was left with 13 Elders; Bill Bennett,Dale Bishop,John Broadway, Joe Corley, Buck Dozier,Chris Gingles,Howard Henderson,Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles Link,Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson
Five of these Elders had been opposed to the "praise teams" and clapping which had permenated the second service since last February 2001. This was when Elder "Buck" Dozier first announced the decision to turn the
new third service loose on the second service.
The five Elders that were opposed we believe were;
Joe Corley
Bill Bennett
Dale Bishop
Norman Slate
Charles Link
It's understood Tom Haddon and about 200 of his followers threatened to leave sometime ago when the praise teams were stopped. It's understood that Chris Gingles encouraged them to stay and fight it out.
Recently the Haddon followers put the push back on to bring back the praise teams, through the elders they control.
It's understood that the Elders had become rather hostile toward each other, and when this push came again, then 4 of the 5 Elders resigned.
Charles Link was out of town, and it is assumed he will resign when he returns.
Quote as told to Bobby M. Johnson by one of the Elders;
".........told me that there had been a recent meeting of the 10:30 AM crowd including Chris Gingles and Tom Haddon's followers and they said they would never leave.
So that with the push to return to the praise teams and the microphones was the last straw."
The Godly 5 Elders had already decided to resign if the winds of change didn't subside.
So that's that!
3 of the Godly Elders also announced that they would probably be attending church at other locations sometime in the future.
No one here blames them, and we can only try to imagine the pain they have been put through.
We are sure that like many of us they were unable to continue to worship in that building.
HAS GOD LEFT THE BUILDING?
========================================
February 9th,2002
We at ConcernedMembers have been told that when the 4 Godly Elders resigned, that they were assured that their letter would be read to the congregation.
Well, as you are probably aware...not only did their letter not get read, there was no mention of their
resignation, other than a little blip in the Marcher.
We have been promised a copy of this letter, and we intend to post it on the web as soon as we get it up. It may be late tonight or tomorrow before we can have it up. The Elders Resignation Letter Is Here
(1) the present deacons will be interviewed by the elders and new deacons will be named; (2) there will be additional elders to be selected; (3), the "love feast" -- and it's only "fitting" -- is to follow the Lord's Supper; (4) Canaan's Land is moving; (5) the "praise team" will be reinstated in the early part of July.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.180.74 on Jan 6, 2003 4:12 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.180.85 on Dec 2, 2002 5:38 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.123 on Nov 25, 2002 2:17 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.188 on Oct 24, 2002 8:47 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 66.20.110.168 on Sep 2, 2002 9:35 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.101 on Aug 16, 2002 6:01 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.101 on Aug 16, 2002 4:26 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 66.20.108.217 on Aug 1, 2002 8:45 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 66.20.108.217 on Aug 1, 2002 8:34 PM
Author
Reply
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Donnie's reply to Megan (from Megan Hill) October 23 2002, 5:20 PM
October 25 2002, 3:41 PM
Megan,
It appears that the number of our differences has been reduced. However, I have noted that my suggestions to help relieve the WORSHIP LEADER dependency and PRAISE TEAM syndrome were indeed hurtful. I have come to the conclusion that to suggest the use of the statue of Mary, the rosary, and the choir to minimize focus deficiency is MUCH MORE HURTFUL than to announce an unsolicited prayer and “hope that one day you [Donnie] will find the peace and communion with our Lord that many of us [Megan and others] have already.” Worse yet is another announcement from you of the same: “I will continue to pray for you [Donnie].” I’m just dying to know what disease I have and am spreading. Well, I could give you a good advice regarding prayer for someone, but I realize it won’t do any good.
Megan, despite all that I have stated above, I did and still consider you as my sister in Christ, in fact, a special sister in the Lord. Your posts are greatly appreciated. You did NOT cause or start the division. Neither did I. As your brother in Christ, it’s unfortunate that I was not specific enough when I said, “Neither is the mutual love for each other as BRETHREN an issue.” The last time I checked, the word “brethren” is inclusive of both brothers and sisters in Christ. Sorry. The “contemporary” language has also changed.
Donnie
Megan Hill (no login) 68.53.141.176
Prayers and Brethren
October 26 2002, 11:37 AM
Donnie,
It makes my heart glad to know you consider me your sister in Christ and forgive my obtuseness (is that a word?) in not recognizing the entire definition of brethren....I was not being "contemporary," just inattentive.
I don't consider you to have any "disease" and I apologize if I offended you by saying that I pray for you. I pray for you because you appear to be lonely and alienated sometimes when I see you at worship assemblies. Perhaps that is a misconception on my part and you just are not socially outgoing -- I apologize if I have misread the situation. I would like to greet you and ask you to have lunch with me, but I have not had the courage to do that. I pray for everyone who attends services at Madison to have the right heart and right motives and to worship in a manner pleasing to God (including me and you). -- I don't normally tell anyone what and who I pray for unless I am just affirming to someone that I am fulfilling a request from them to pray for them (I try to pray in secret, alone, as the Bible teaches), but you seem concerned or offended about my statements about praying for you (and I should not have stated them publicly in the first place) so that is why I am making these statements. I pray for our leaders. I pray for the people who left Madison, that they have found fulfillment in other churches or, if not, that they will return and renew relationships with Madison members.
Did you happen to attend services at Madison this past Wednesday night? It was a wonderful time of worship and several former members were there. There was a lot of love and unity in the auditorium that night and I am praying hard to see more of that.
I love the Madison Church of Christ and what it has meant to me and my family for many years. I don't think this web site, or looking for evil, or predicting and speculating (covenant of membership, band and musical instruments -- keeps being predicted but is not happening) is going to bring revival to the church there. I think it is time to quit rehashing mistakes made in the past by our leaders and by a lot of members. When someone asks for forgiveness, and we don't give it, that is SIN.
We can't change the past. Do we need to be watchful for sin and for manipulation by satan? YES. Do we need to speculate on what we don't want to see happen but which is not happening and may NEVER come to pass (instrumental music, etc?) NO.
I will leave you these words from Phillipians 4:
7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 205.188.209.135
“QUIT REHASHING MISTAKES MADE IN THE PAST BY OUR LEADERS…”
October 28 2002, 1:44 AM
“IT IS TIME TO QUIT REHASHING MISTAKES MADE IN THE PAST BY OUR LEADERS AND BY A LOT OF MEMBERS” (by Megan Hill) October 26 2002, 11:37 AM
=======================================
PRAYER, LONELINESS AND ALIENATION, SOCIALIZING
=======================================
Yes, we should pray for many things: our government, our church leaders, neighbors and friends, our families, our own selves. And sincere private prayers do eliminate the elements of hypocrisy and showy attitude while we patiently wait for God to answer us according to His will.
Me looking lonely? I may be lonely because I think I have become the subject of personal attacks by those who are more interested in carrying out the charismatic scheme rather than in their recognizing the fact that carrying out the charismatic scheme has created schism in the church. On one hand, these folks have strengthened the cause of the Community Church Movement. On the other hand, these same folks have forgotten certain principles and doctrines set forth in the New Testament and have weakened the cause of the Restoration Movement. I am very sad in that while not forgiving someone is sinful, the leadership responsible for the spiritual breakdown of the church at Madison has not publicly acknowledged the error of its ways. That would have been the one first big step toward restoring the broken fellowship into that of a unified body. Making improvements to the disastrous scheme is not the answer. Undoing the scheme and following God’s direction for the church through its elders would be the answer.
Megan, I believe that the alienation that you see, especially in the balcony, is not because of my occupying the entire pew. What you see is that there are so many empty pews. I recall not too long ago, only a couple of years ago, when it was somewhat difficult to find an area where 3 or 4 people could sit together. Where have they all gone? Perhaps in that way, you are right, that I am all alone concentrating on what’s being preached or taught and making sure that it has scriptural foundation and is not perverse. I’m just hoping that I’m not the focus of controversy while your WORSHIP LEADER wants everyone to literally look at him for spiritual direction.
I fully understand that there would be so much love and unity in the gathering this past Wednesday night. I am sure that it was tears of joy that our brother David Slater’s return to the fold is a testimony to our human weakness and to God’s forgiving nature. It should be a reminder to the entire body of believers at Madison, including and especially the leaders, that there is a need to return to the old paths. A return to God and His direction for the church would be a sweet invitation to former members for their return as well.
========================================
MEGAN SAYS: “I LOVE THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST”
========================================
[…and what it has meant to me and my family for many years. I don't think this web site, or looking for evil, or predicting and speculating (covenant of membership, band and musical instruments -- keeps being predicted but is not happening) is going to bring revival to the church there. I think it is time to quit rehashing mistakes made in the past by our leaders and by a lot of members. When someone asks for forgiveness, and we don't give it, that is SIN. We can't change the past. Do we need to be watchful for sin and for manipulation by satan? YES. Do we need to speculate on what we don't want to see happen but which is not happening and may NEVER come to pass (instrumental music, etc?) NO.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUESTION: HAVE THE LEADERS ACKNOWLEDGED THEIR MISTAKES?
HAVE THEY REALLY ASKED FOR FORGIVENESS IN ORDER TO BE FORGIVEN?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Response: Ignoring the problems does not diminish or eliminate the problems. Recognizing them, as some of us already have, is a beginning step. But returning to the old paths that have worked before, or simply letting God’s word, not our conscience, as our guide is ultimately the answer to the problems. Predicting and speculating things that do not seem to be happening are simply warnings coming from churches that have had those experiences already. If ConcernedMembers has helped in ways to defer or retard or prevent predictions from happening, then, that’s wonderful. Don’t hold your breath yet on the “covenant of membership.” That has been formulated, but it would not have been formulated without any reason. Should it never happen, that would be wonderful. Yes, Satan works in many perverse and devious ways. Leadership, of all people, should recognize that!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
JUKEBOX: The Reality Exposed and the Mystery Solved
October 25 2002, 3:55 PM
Has it occurred to anyone who has gotten involved in the discussion of the mystifying “jukebox” that NOTHING HAPPENS WITHOUT A CAUSE (according to science)? Let us not underestimate any individual’s ability to motivate and probably advertise (the jukebox) … rather than divert. In other words, let us begin exposing the reality. And to accomplish this, we need to establish some point of reference. The moderator has already provided the link to that reference. And the unabridged reference is also available under the thread “Interviews & Transcripts.” What do we find? The jukebox mystery solved.
The transcript, dated February 25, 2001, is from a Homebuilders Class taught by Tom Haddon. While this was only one in a series of sessions on “church growth,” this particular session in itself is indicative of what had been in the plan for Madison’s future. Admittedly, the material was difficult to transcribe due to the quality of delivery, lack of professional structure and organization of content, and incoherence. However, the content of the material should be our focus. What you are about to read consists of highlights of the deceptive scheme and maneuvers for achieving the objectives for “church growth” at Madison at any cost. Remind you that the jukebox issue was a real prompt to the REAL DIVERSION in the “church growth” methodology as revealed in the transcribed document.
Tom Haddon is speaking:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HOLY ENTERTAINMENT AS A FORM OF DIVERSION
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[… If the word entertainment does mean to divert one’s attention, to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then, that is what we’re here to do … and maybe it’s time we stopped trying to hide from words because they scare people…. And soon as I say the word “holy entertainment,” there would be some who would go … it sounds so ----. But in a way that’s what we’re here to do…. We are here to divert people’s attention ---.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LEADERSHIP – WHATEVER IT TAKES (DECEPTION)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[But we do whatever we can in love to get everybody on board and that takes time, and it takes patience, and it takes people who are being led by people who say, “Look, we may have to divert a little bit here.” We may have to fly around the storm. We may have to scoot over because we don’t want to hit headlong into an iceberg, but our basic direction is unchanged, and everybody knows where we are going…. Let me say … I think we have some wonderful leaders here. I really do.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WORSHIP REFORMAT SCHEME – NO SURPRISES
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[No surprises. That was one of the things I had. No surprises… You don’t want to be surprised. A lot of us know what it’s like to be surprised, don’t we? Surprises --- you know, how would you like a surprise shower --- a surprise birthday party when you stepped out of the shower one morning? Sometimes that’s what surprises in worship are like. You just feel violated all of a sudden, you know… We don’t want surprises.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PULPIT MINISTER; TEACHERS TO TEACH (SCRIPTURES OR PROCESS?)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[We want to teach about where we are going. We want to lead people. I was hopin’ an prayin’ I could say this in a way that didn’t turn people off … that was humorous and still got a point across. We need to teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, and then when we are through teaching, we need to teach some more. And many times it can’t just come from our pulpit. And we’re in a precarious situation right here because we have no fulltime pulpit minister, and that means we have to become teachers ourselves.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
GENERATION GAP: PREPARATION FOR CONFLICT IN TRANSITION
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[And the conflict comes in there because what’s the best way to me is not the necessarily the best way to others… You know it’s been black and white for years… We have a group of people who go to your leaders and say, “You know black and white is what we have had forever. Black and white is, black and white is what I grew up with.” And there comes the struggle. The issue of a generation raised with color and a generation raised to believe that black and white is reverent and black and white is holy. And you have a clash. You have a clash with the up and coming with what I call their sponsors… And you know in many ways they are right. And in many ways they are not right. How can we best do that?]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH – A MODEL CHURCH VISITED
SADDLEBACK VALLEY COMMUNITY CHURCH – A CHURCH ON PURPOSE
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Being a church on purpose. I wanted to tell you a lot about that … Saddleback church that I told you about. I’m only gonna tell you about one area that I saw when I got there. They have a purpose … they have a greeter ministry that is unparalleled … you have to be shuttled into their building when you got 24,000 to 26,000 coming on Sunday…. It is a church on purpose. They are directed. They have a goal for what they’re doing…]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CHURCHES OF CHRIST CRITIQUED FOR LACK OF “REACHING UP”
LEADERSHIP DECIDES DIRECTION IN SUNDAY MORNING WORSHIP
NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE AND “COMMUNITY” AS BASIS FOR WORSHIP
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[If the leadership decides that our Sunday morning assemblies are goin to be directed in a certain area, then we as followers should have a duty to follow that. But at the same time our leadership has to be, they have to look at the needs of the people, the needs of the community…. When I say edifying, encouraging or another, reaching in … about evangelism, reaching out … glorification, reaching up. I think if there is any of these 3 areas that maybe the Churches of Christ as a whole have kinda gotten away from, I believe it is glorification.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“RIDING THE WINDS OF CHANGE” – BUILDERS AND BOOMERS
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Have any of you read the book “Riding the Winds of Change”? --- It is a great book. I would, I would suggest that you get it. It talks about 3 ways that are in every church, three ways that are in every church. The first one is the “builders.” In general, the builders are the older folks in, among us. They are our parents. Let me tell you this they are the parents of some of you in here. They are the grandparents, they are the grandparents of some of you in here, because I’ve hear, I’ve talked to some of them… They are the people who have solid expectations about what worship should be. Words like reverence and quiet, clear, peaceful, come to mind. They value tradition…. You go from the builders and you go to the boomers … the boomers say, “Well, you know, couldn’t we just hire somebody to do that?” They [builders] have words that, that I don’t like sometimes like uncomfortable, questionable…. And what they must never forget is that we are builders too. And what they must never forget is if that, is if, is if the building just stops with them, and they don’t teach us to become builders, by the older teacher the younger, and getting together that the church will die. Because at some point every boomer has to become a builder ... we have to build things.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PRAISE TEAM … CLAP, CLAP, CLAP … ON THE CLAPPING SIDE OF HEAVEN
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Let me ask you this. One year ago we didn’t have Wednesday nights. One year ago we didn’t have a praise team in Homebuilders…. The ones of you who have told me that are now scared to raise your hands, just things and ways that we’ve worshipped in here a year and a half ago, how many were uncomfortable with some of that? … There’s a song that Keith sings … the song he sings, you know, have you heard it? “My Life is in You.” I love that song, “My Life,” and every time we sing it. [Tom claps. People clap.] My life (clap) is (clap) in you (clap), Lord (clap), my strength (clap) is in (clap) you (clap), Lord. I felt uncomfort[able]. I love that song but we sang it one time when it made me uncomfortable…. I’m gonna be on the clappin side of heaven.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JUST GET OVER IT … INTRODUCE THINGS SLOWLY … NOT SCRIPTURAL
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[We don’t ever need to tell somebody, “Just get over it. Just get over it.” Sometimes I’d like to say that, you know, don’t you sometimes, don’t you want to say “just get over it”? But you can’t say that. We don’t ever have the right to be insensitive. Unless we are teaching people that the things we are doing involving banners and praise teams and all these things are to bring the lost to Christ to become more like Him. And aren’t there things we can do that would turn a group of people in a declining membership around that are not scriptural, that would make the word more attractive to other people. Is it goin’ to happen over night? No. It didn’t happen in here over night. We sang with a jukebox for 7 months, before we ever got a song leader. And we sang songs most of them didn’t they involve spirited singing but that was about it. And then you know we added songs in there. Keith did. A few people started clapping and others did. And it was a thing that just come about and it came little by little but you know what, in the meantime this class grew. And you know how many people we kept on board because we kept weeks and weeks and 5 months of talking about it and we introduced things slowly. And we had a purpose. And there was something behind what we were doin’ and we taught about it. And I go back to teach and teach and teach and teach and you know for those of us who constantly like new things and are pushing the edge, there are things I need to remember and this is where I want to close.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Dennis (no login) 204.30.61.117
Re: JUKEBOX: The Reality Exposed and the Mystery Solved
October 27 2002, 4:28 PM
I thought it was asked and specifically requested to get beyond this "JUKEBOX" discussion. Personally, there was never a jukebox used in that service at all. NOW GET OVER IT! BTW, how do you know this to be a fact. Which one of your "nosy bodies" or whatever of your "Henchmen" came to this conclusion? You seem to make it clear that it is hard to transcribe what was discussed. Does this mean you were there that Sunday in the H/builders class? Maybe you should clear up your statements and not be so vague in communicating.
Continually Seeking The Truth, Dennis
"DONNIE" says:
"Admittedly, the material was difficult to transcribe due to the quality of delivery, lack of professional structure and organization of content, and incoherence. However, the content of the material should be our focus. What you are about to read consists of highlights of the deceptive scheme and maneuvers for achieving the objectives for “church growth” at Madison at any cost. Remind you that the jukebox issue was a real prompt to the REAL DIVERSION in the “church growth” methodology as revealed in the transcribed document.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
It's About the Saddleback Scheme; It's Not About the Jukebox. Get It?
October 28 2002, 1:58 PM
Dennis,
You completely missed the point. Get over it? No way! The issue is not about the mysterious jukebox. The issue is the deceptive scheme about "church growth" and using the Saddleback Community Church, the "purpose-driven church," as the model. BTW, this is still going on. Please reread the document and continue seeking the truth!
Donnie
Donnie Cruz (no login) 152.163.189.132
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Oct. 27, 2002)
October 28 2002, 4:09 AM
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Oct. 27, 2002)
We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:
==============================================
Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001)
Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001)
Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001)
==============================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001)
--------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) -------------
--- $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002.
--- $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002.
--- $67,946 was “TITHED” on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11)
--- $52,733 was “TITHED” on August 25, 2002.
--- $46,316 was “TITHED” on September 1, 2002.
--- $43,657 was “TITHED” on September 8, 2002.
--- $48,710 was “TITHED” on September 15, 2002.
--- $41,205 was “TITHED” on September 22, 2002.
--- $40,534 was “TITHED” on September 29, 2002.
--- $40,308 was “TITHED” on October 6, 2002.
--- $43,394 was “TITHED” on October 13, 2002.
--- $40,588 was “TITHED” on October 20, 2002.
--- Tithing on October 27, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday.
--- The amounts above were not “TITHED as PLEDGED” (not yet)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------------------------------------
---------- Special Collection ----------
--------- Sunday, November 17 ----------
-------- “Take God At His Word” --------
--------------------------------------------------
Remember Dr. Kregg Hood, as mentioned above? He authored the tithing manual, “Take God At His Word,” subtitled: “Experience the Power of Giving.” The core message of the booklet is in the second section: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
==================================================
MECHANICAL AID TO WORSHIP LEADER AND HIS PRAISE TEAM;
HANDCLAPPING SYNDROME IN MADISON CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP
==================================================
Harold Stacey described last Sunday’s MUSIC as a good mix of the old and the contemporary. But whether it is a mix or not, it is evident that what’s occurring in the assembly is a lot of MUSIC entertainment. On this Sunday, 10/27/02, there definitely was MUSICAL PERFORMANCE. Well, don’t be fooled with the MUSIC being expressed with love and sincerity and reverence and whatever is that “felt” presence.
You know, I am really concerned that the “congregation team” is all sitting there no longer participating while the “praise team” is just enjoying the pleasure of singing to and for the listeners. I have yet to witness the improvement in singing by the congregation. I am sorry, but what I hear is still the praise team for the most part. If it is not the praise team dominating, it is the WORSHIP LEADER howling his lead part. If it is not that, it is the complicated arrangement of a song that an ordinary person would have difficulty participating in. The rehearsal bit puts the ordinary learner at a disadvantage. A music literate does not have time to flip to the page of notes, but has to rely on echoing the choir voices because the white screen does not display the notes and it projects a syllabic phrase or a few lines at a time. What an insult to literacy!. Believe me, the praise team, while claiming to assist and show others HOW to worship, is an added insult! On top of all this, performed handclapping continues to be a distraction to many people who see no need for it whatsoever. Now, no one is ever opposed to unrehearsed joy, which should not be an outward appearance in the first place, unless a smiley, happy face reflects that genuine, spontaneous joy. I would detest the idea of the Madison congregation as simply a body comprised of imitating charismatic handclappers, instead of reverent worshipers.
Of the total 13 songs sung, many of the 11 contemporary music songs did not have sheet music; therefore, they were rehearsed songs that the choir members were singing to and for the congregation. What was surprising was the fact that if these clapping-trained singers would interpret inward joy as literal handclapping, they did not start dancing literally today. Thank God for that. Part of the song, “This Is How We Overcome,” says, “You have turned my mourning into dancing.” Another song, “I Love to Be in Your Presence,” says, “You set my feet to dancing.”
When is the WORSHIP LEADER ever going to come to his spiritual senses? When is the WORSHIP LEADER going to start considering showing a little more reverence to God Almighty? We know that God is an “awesome” God in the language that we know today of someone or something being “awesome.” But, folks, there is a difference between that form of awesome-ness and the form with which we express great AWE (respect and reverence) to Jehovah.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.189.128 on Oct 28, 2002 12:37 PM
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Oct. 27, 2002)
October 31 2002, 1:16 AM
=============================================
As promised by Dr. Bruce White that a message would be printed in each of the next few issues, here’s one that might have been more appropriately titled as “ThanksTithing.” But we’re not here to deceive anyone, so the correct title and a portion of the article are following. At your discretion, you may do your own word substitutions:
--- “TITHE” for “GIVE”
--- “TITHING” for “GIVING”
--- “THANKSTITHING” for “THANKSGIVING”
=============================================
=============================================
The Madison Marcher (October 23, 2002)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ThanksGiving
November 17, 2002
By Dr. C. Bruce White
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[“We will be having our special ThanksGiving contribution on November 17…. We have learned some great lessons this year about giving God His due and the stories keep coming about His blessings. A brother called me last week to tell me that he and his wife prayed about tithing. They decided to make the leap and give 10%. The Monday following that decision he closed a business deal he had been working on for several weeks.
There is just no way to predict how God is going to bless those who seriously measure their blessings and express that in sacrificial giving. It has to begin sometime, so why not on November 17? Let us pray, be sure, commit, and give to the glory of the Lord! It will be exciting to watch what we do and then to see what God does. I am anticipating the day.
Not Money Again
One of the things you hear from some church members when the congregation makes a monetary appeal is, “all they want is money”. I think the serious Christian knows better than that…. Would you rather help the church do her work, support her efforts, or be without her? We are so blessed to have a great church at Madison. Yes, it takes money and I am never apologetic for asking that people give God what is His anyway. Let’s celebrate that we can participate in this wonderful work. Be a very active part of the November 17th campaign. Let this be a real ThanksGiving.”]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Oct. 27, 2002)
November 1 2002, 12:55 PM
==================================================
OTHER ITEMS ASSOCIATED WITH TITHES, TITHING:
==================================================
--- THE LEVITICAL PRIESTHOOD (NOT FORSAKEN IN LIFETIME)
--- WITHOUT EXCEPTIONS, DO ALL COMMANDS (NOT ONE OR SOME):
--- --- --- “… thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.)
--- --- --- BURNT OFFERINGS
--- --- --- HEAVE OFFERINGS
--- --- --- FREEWILL OFFERINGS
--- --- --- FIRSTLINGS OF HERDS AND FLOCKS
--- --- --- FLESH AND BLOOD SACRIFICES
--- --- --- CHOICE VOWS
--- --- --- TITHE OF “THY” CORN, WINE, OIL
--- THANKSGIVING (I wonder if this is Dr. White’s reference to
--- --- --- SACRIFICIAL TITHING on November 17)
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Deut. 12: [6] And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks: … [11] Then there shall be a place which the LORD your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; thither shall ye bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the heave offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which ye vow unto the LORD: … [17] Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand: … [19] Take heed to thyself that thou forsake not the Levite as long as thou livest upon the earth… [27] And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh… [32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Amos 4: [4] Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three years: [5] And offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 3, 2002)
November 4 2002, 12:57 PM
We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:
==============================================
Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001)
Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001)
Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001)
==============================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001)
--------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) -------------
--- $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002.
--- $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002.
--- $67,946 was “TITHED” on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11)
--- $52,733 was “TITHED” on August 25, 2002.
--- $46,316 was “TITHED” on September 1, 2002.
--- $43,657 was “TITHED” on September 8, 2002.
--- $48,710 was “TITHED” on September 15, 2002.
--- $41,205 was “TITHED” on September 22, 2002.
--- $40,534 was “TITHED” on September 29, 2002.
--- $40,308 was “TITHED” on October 6, 2002.
--- $43,394 was “TITHED” on October 13, 2002.
--- $40,588 was “TITHED” on October 20, 2002.
--- $40,829 was “TITHED” on October 27, 2002.
--- Tithing on November 3, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday.
--- The amounts above were not “TITHED as PLEDGED” (not yet)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------------------------------------
---------- Special Collection ----------
--------- Sunday, November 17 ----------
-------- “Take God At His Word” --------
--------------------------------------------------
Remember Dr. Kregg Hood, as mentioned above? He authored the tithing manual, “Take God At His Word,” subtitled: “Experience the Power of Giving.” The core message of the booklet is in the second section: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
THE MADISON MARCHER (OCTOBER 30, 2002), THE PREACHER AND TITHING
==================================================
Dr. White repeatedly asked this question today (11/03/02): “How many of you are reading The Marcher?” Was that a question of concern? Please don’t worry, Dr. White. We’re helping you in here as much as we can. The MADISON MARCHER (October 30, 2002) reports:
================================================
================================================
From the PREACHER POTPOURRI (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[“What a great Sunday we had last week. The spirit of worship was exhilarating…. A sweet couple shared with me that they had decided to give the T-I-T-H-E [emphasis, dc], and she received a $4,000 R-A-I-S-E [emphasis, dc]…. It may not always come that rapidly but the Lord’s promise is there to be claimed…. It seems that everyone is enjoying the HARMONY [dc] of the Madison church at this time.”]
================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE CRUZ: (1) WORSHIP WAS EXHILARATING -- Was that last Sunday October 27 when there was so much handclapping and cheerleading? (2) COMMAND VS PRINCIPLE -- Dr. White and Dr. Hood’s influential teaching on O.T. TITHING New Testament Christians is evident in the lives of some members including this couple. Was the raise a coincidence? Was the commitment to “tithe” perfectly timed with the raise? Was the raise received as planned or promised by the employer and on the basis that it was earned by the employee? While I am not questioning what God can do in response to a Christian’s benevolent efforts, what must be considered is the effort on the part of the leadership to confuse the “principle” of giving with the OT “command” to tithe the Israelites. (3) HARMONY -- Speaking of “harmony,” … what harmony? The dwindling attendance [at the 500+ level] in the early service (and possibly in the “contemporary” service also) must be contributing to the silencing of the crowd and to that harmony.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
“ENOUGH TO EAT AND PLENTY TO SPARE” (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[When Hezekiah began his effort at restoring the temple and the worship of the Lord, he asked the people to give, “the portion due the priest and Levites so they could devote themselves to the Law of the Lord.” It is recorded in II Chronicles 31:5,10, “They brought a great amount, a tithe of everything.” When Hezekiah asked about the contributions, Azariah, the chief priest answered, “Since the people began to bring their contribution to the temple of the Lord, we have had enough to eat and plenty to spare, because the Lord has blessed his people, and this great amount is left over.”
It is difficult to not make simple applications of these principles. On November 17, we will be bringing gifts to the Lord. We need to bring in “tithes of everything” that God’s work will be done and His name glorified. It is a basic principle in Scripture, when God’s people give properly, then he blesses abundantly.
Let’s take God at His word and give sacrificially so that the windows of heaven will be opened to this portion of His people. We anticipate a great outpouring of thanksgiving on that Sunday. It is imperative that everyone participates. You may not have a great sum of money to give, but God can do a lot with a little. It takes the cooperative spirit and generous heart to bring great things together for the Lord… I want to challenge each one to do whatever you can to make November 17 a day of celebration to the Lord. Bring great gifts to present in the service of the Lord….]
================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DR. WHITE ADMITS: “PORTION DUE THE PRIEST AND LEVITES”
DR. WHITE ADMITS: “A TITHE OF EVERYTHING”
DR. WHITE STILL CONFUSES: (1) COMMAND TO “TITHE” AND (2) PRINCIPLE TO “GIVE”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RESPONSE: One big question now is who or what is the Levitical priesthood at the Madison Church of Christ “so they could devote themselves to the Law of the Lord?” Furthermore, which “law of the Lord” is referred to?
Remember the “TITHE OF EVERYTHING” and the things associated with it? We have some listed (Deuteronomy 12:6-32) on October 27:
--- --- BURNT OFFERINGS
--- --- HEAVE OFFERINGS
--- --- FREEWILL OFFERINGS
--- --- FIRSTLINGS OF HERDS AND FLOCKS
--- --- FLESH AND BLOOD SACRIFICES
--- --- CHOICE VOWS
--- --- TITHE OF “THY” CORN, WINE, OIL
--- --- DO NOT FORGET 10% OF … E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G … ELSE!
Continue to remind you about the TITHING manual by Dr. Kregg Hood: “Let’s Take God at His word” and the very special section on “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.” The preacher says, “We anticipate a great outpouring of thanksgiving on that Sunday.” Yes, he meant: “THANKSTITHING.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
VISION 2003: “ONE-TIME GIFT PLUS 12-MONTH COMMITMENT” OR “LUMP SUM”
================================================
The preacher announced that the leadership at Madison has no secrets and that it wants to let “VISION 2003” be known. The following announcements were made on November 3, 2002 (Sunday):
--- The indebtedness is down from $7.5 million to $3,593,750
--- The monthly note is $30,000 at 4.7% interest
--- The membership on roll is 4,493 and is represented by 1,973 families
--- --- including the departed [dead or alive] saints?
--- The [combined] worship attendance, which “bottomed out” at 1500 has increased
--- --- to about 1800 now [500-550 at 8:00 and 1250-1300 [?] at 10:30]
--- The 2002 weekly budget of $43,560 is being achieved …
--- The average contribution [“tithe” this year] has been $44,150 … as of
--- --- January thru September 2002 [thanks to the O.T. “TITHING” campaign]
--- --- The $67,946 (8/18) & $52,733 (8/25) “TITHES” must have raised the average
SUGGESTIONS FROM THE ELDERS:
(1) Members contribute a one-time gift plus a 12-month commitment for 2003 or
(2) Members contribute a one-time lump-sum gift.
================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. White is “ANXIOUS” about the total that will be contributed [“TITHED”] on November 17, 2002. What is this anxiety about? What does the Bible say about “thou” or “ye of little faith”? Or, is it time for the leadership to acknowledge where it has gone astray and seek to return to the “old paths” and bring the departed “builders” back in order to help with the indebtedness?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 63.84.81.138
Tithing NT Christians
November 4 2002, 7:05 PM
The PLAGUE STOPPING ceremony was to ceremonially purify or make atonement for the nation, king, priests, Levites, city of Jerusalem and the temple.
--"After that, the people went throughout the city and destroyed all of the DENOMINATIONAL temples. Then all of the children of Israel returned to their own city.
--And Hezekiah appointed the courses of the priests and the Levites after their courses, every man according to his service,
----the priests and Levites for BURNT OFFERINGS and for peace OFFERINGS, to minister, and to give thanks, and to praise in the GATES of the tents of the Lord. 2 Chronicles 31:2
------He appointed also the KINGS PORTION of his substance for the BURN offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the SABBATHS, and for the NEW MOONS, and for the set FEASTS, as it is written in the LAW of the Lord. 2 Chronicles 31:3
But Paul wrote that we should be AFRAID OF ANYONE who tries to RESTORE the Law of Moses:
--But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Gal 4:9
----Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. Gal 4:10
------I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:11
If the job of TEA TASTER has been abolished and someone wants to COLLECT TAXES to support the TEA TASTER what do you call such a person?
--Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:14
----And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col 2:15
------Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Col 2:16
--------Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col 2:17
God didn't REWARD the tithers but so that the CLERGY who made animal sacrifices had ENOUGH TO EAT. The TITHE was never more than FOOD to be CONSUMED in the "church yard."
----And Azariah the chief PRIEST of the house of Zadok answered him, and said, Since the people began to bring the offerings into the house of the Lord, we have had enough to eat, and have left plenty: for the Lord hath blessed his people; and that which is left is this great store. 2 Chronicles 31:10
BUT: Our High Priest is in heaven and doesn't get hungry except in the form of the POOR.
It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to claim the TITHE to FEED animal killers who also had JESUS CHRIST killed without DENYING that Jesus died and stopped the slaughter of SHEEP by the CLERGY.
----Seeing then that we have a great HIGH PRIEST, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. Heb.4:14
---"JEWS DEMAND MIRACULOUS SIGNS and Greeks look for wisdom, 1 Cor 1:22
We should all have a SHUDDERING ritual this Sunday.
Ken Sublett
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
“Take God at His Word” (I Want You to Tithe…) by Dr. Kregg Hood
November 7 2002, 1:37 PM
“Take God at His Word” (I Want You to Tithe…) by Dr. Kregg Hood
This is the manual on TITHING, an Old Testament command for the Israelites to obey for the services of the Levitical priesthood. This was a command aligned and associated with other commands and observances during the Old Testament era, such as animal sacrifices and burnt offerings, the Sabbaths, etc. The New Testament clearly speaks of the distinction between the law of Moses and the law of Christ. That distinction encompasses the specificity of what the command to tithe would require, i.e., 10% of everything VERSUS the liberality in giving to help the destitute and the needy. (Of course, no New Testament Christian is forbidden or restricted to give 90% of all that he has or owns or is capable of giving.)
The latest campaign to “take God at His word,” which translates to having to TITHE on November 17, 2002, is highlighted in a letter written by the current eldership on November 1st. (I am aware of instances where this letter was sent to former members or members no longer in the fellowship.) This campaign has been advertised under the guise of the principle of TITHING. However, tithing is NOT a principle of giving. It was, rather, a COMMAND that was given to a particular group of people (the Israelites), during a particular period in history (in the Old Testament era), and for a particular purpose (for services of the Levitical priests). This is not to say that I am advocating non-participation on the part of those who really believe in this perverted doctrine of TITHING.
My understanding is that there was a commitment card sent with the letter. The card detailed the number of ways by which commitment could be made for the Vision 2003 Building Fund: (a) real estate, (b) stocks or bonds, (c) antiques, (d) life insurance policies or equity, (e) jewelry, (f) works of art, (g) income tax refunds, (h) coins or stamp collection, (i) revocable trusts. As an incorporated church, I am wondering if it had a paid firm come in to do the analysis and encourage tithing.
I need help from the readers. Please respond to this post by adding other ways and means to help with this tithing campaign to the ones listed below, as I’m sure the parking lot can accommodate all of these:
--- vehicles, boats, equipment and other personal, taxable properties
--- “firstlings of your herds and of your flocks” (Deut. 12:6)
--- “tithe of corn, wine, oil” (Deut. 12:17)
--- other items to BRING WITH TITHING as commanded:
--- --- burnt offerings and sacrifices,
--- --- heave offerings,
--- --- choice vows
--- --- freewill offerings
--- --- (Deuteronomy 12:6-32)
QUESTIONS: IS THIS A PERVERSION OF THE DOCTRINE OF TITHING? (That’s what it sounds like.) OR IS IT SIMPLY A FUND RAISING CAMPAIGN? (You know, I have no personal objection to this effort being a fund raising campaign. I should say … call it SIMPLY THAT! Otherwise, it would be misleading and a doctrinal fallacy.)
==========================
Donnie Cruz
Gargill is a high priced consulting company that will work with any Church on fund raising.
Just guessing, their fees are probably several hundred thousand dollars, or a percentage of the funds raised.
They will come in and survey the Church's "Big Givers". Then they will examine the Church's membership rolls to determine income levels. This is so they can come back to the Church leaders with an estimate of how much money they can raise.
This is all part of the "Church Growth" movement.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.10 on Nov 7, 2002 4:34 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.10 on Nov 7, 2002 4:08 PM This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.188.10 on Nov 7, 2002 3:37 PM
(no login) 63.84.81.89
TAKE God!
November 7 2002, 5:17 PM
After Richland Hills people nailed their 25 thesis to the church house door I dug out my posted Luther's 95 Thesis.
http://www.piney.com/Luther95.html
This document has to do primarily with indulgencies or freedom from a CURSE if the poor put enough cash in the priest's collection plate. I have posted it here so that you can understand that free will giving is always FORCED by these money grubbers and the contract you though that you had, is marked "null and void." This happens when the money is diverted to something you didn't agree with.
And since INDULGENCES to big givers lets you skip CIRCLES on the way to the inner circle or "home base" of the Purpose Driven Cult, there is no difference between INDULGENCIES which caused the Reformation and modern giving where THERE IS NO LAW OF GIVING even for free will giving.
26. The pope does well when he grants remission to souls [in purgatory], not by the power of the keys (which he does not possess), but by way of intercession.
27. They preach man who say that so soon as the penny jingles into the money-box, the soul flies out [of purgatory].
28. It is certain that when the penny jingles into the money-box, gain and avarice can be increased, but the result of the intercession of the Church is in the power of God alone.
46. Christians are to be taught that unless they have more than they need,they are bound to keep back what is necessary for their own families, and by no means to SQUANDER it on pardons. [Or theaters for holy entertainment].
And for those who TITHED and got a RAISE and praise:
55. It must be the intention of the pope that if pardons, which are a very small thing, are celebrated with ONE bell, with SINGLE processions and ceremonies,
then the Gospel, which is the very greatest thing, should be preached with a hundred bells, a hundred processions, a hundred ceremonies.
56. The "treasures of the Church," out of which the pope. grants indulgences, are not sufficiently named or known among the people of Christ.
Of Tetzel Luther wrote:
"You should know that all who confess and in penance put alms into the coffer according to the counsel of the confessor, will obtain complete remission of all their sins. If they visit, after confession and after THE JUBILEE, the Cross and the altar every day they will receive that indulgence which would be theirs upon visiting in St. Peter's the seven altars, where complete indulgence is offered. Why are you then standing there? Run for the salvation of your souls!"
"After Tetzel had received a substantial amount of money at Leipzig, a nobleman asked him if it were possible to receive a letter of indulgence for a FUTURE sin.
---"Tetzel quickly answered in the affirmative, insisting, however, that the payment had to made at once. This the nobleman did, receiving thereupon letter and seal from Tetzel.
---"When Tetzel left Leipzig the nobleman attacked him along the way, gave him a thorough beating, and sent him back empty-handed to Leipzig with the comment that this was the future sin which he had in mind. Duke George at first was quite furious about this incident, but when he heard the whole story he let it go without punishing the nobleman."
If someone tells you that you MUST TITHE or you will BE CURSED he is as evil as the Pope and Tetzel his "Fund Raising Manager" who wants your INCOME TAX return when most people may have already TITHED on it if the GROSS PAY scam is followed. Furthermore, most people have lost that deduction.
Many people cannot pay for their funeral and they want your LIFE INSURANCE too? To pay for what? Musicians replacing Jesus in the Holy Place? Isn't there some history of the Saddle Back Infiltrate and Divert? So, how can one tell whether they will GET what they pay for? I believe that most MONEY RAISING programs switch and bait. Again, if you TITHE you might as well burn JESUS on the altar. There is no LAW OF GIVING: no, not a penny. If you buy a THEATER instead of giving or teaching the POOR then there is no Spirit of Jesus in your soul.
Ken Sublett
Donnie Cruz (no login) 152.163.189.132
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 10, 2002)
November 11 2002, 3:09 AM
We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:
==============================================
Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001)
Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001)
Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001)
==============================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001)
--------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) -------------
--- $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002.
--- $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002.
--- $67,946 was “TITHED” on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11)
--- $52,733 was “TITHED” on August 25, 2002.
--- $46,316 was “TITHED” on September 1, 2002.
--- $43,657 was “TITHED” on September 8, 2002.
--- $48,710 was “TITHED” on September 15, 2002.
--- $41,205 was “TITHED” on September 22, 2002.
--- $40,534 was “TITHED” on September 29, 2002.
--- $40,308 was “TITHED” on October 6, 2002.
--- $43,394 was “TITHED” on October 13, 2002.
--- $40,588 was “TITHED” on October 20, 2002.
--- $40,829 was “TITHED” on October 27, 2002.
--- $40,989 was “TITHED” on November 3, 2002.
--- Tithing on November 10, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday.
--- The amounts above were not “TITHED as PLEDGED” (not yet)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------------------------------------
---------- Special Collection ----------
--------- Sunday, November 17 ----------
-------- “Take God At His Word” --------
--------------------------------------------------
Remember Dr. Kregg Hood, as mentioned above? He authored the tithing manual, “Take God At His Word,” subtitled: “Experience the Power of Giving.” The core message of the booklet is in the second section: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
THE MADISON MARCHER (NOVEMBER 6, 2002), THE PREACHER AND TITHING
==================================================
Some anxious moments…
================================================
================================================
From the PREACHER POTPOURRI (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[“We must keep November 17 in our thoughts. We are going to have a great outpouring of love as we give to the wonderful work of the Lord at this place. It will take a special effort on the part of everyone to have the success we desire…]
================================================
================================================
“THEY GAVE AS MUCH AS THEY WERE ABLE, AND EVEN BEYOND THEIR ABILITY” (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[This phrase is found in II Corinthians 8:3. It references the giving of the Macedonian churches in response to Paul’s appeal for the needy brethren in Judea. The entire section of Scripture is moving, exciting, and challenging to any Christian reader. It speaks of “their poverty,” “overflowing joy,” “rich generosity,” “on their own they pleaded…for the privilege of sharing,” “gave themselves first to the Lord,” “gave…in keeping with God’s will.” Just reflecting on those phrases makes one’s heart desire to share in such commitment…]
================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE CRUZ: THE NEW TESTAMENT PRINCIPLE OF GIVING
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Know what? Dr. White has finally made sense! According to the scriptures! More specifically, according to the New Testament principle of giving! Have you noticed the contrasting and remarkable liberal giving and generosity on the part of the early Christians that we, 21st century Christians, are to experience? Notice Dr. White’s reference to “the giving of the Macedonian churches in response to Paul’s appeal for the NEEDY BRETHREN in Judea”? Yes, needy brethren! The destitute! It’s taken a while for Dr. White to teach and emphasize the principle of giving to take care of the needs of the brethren!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
THEY GAVE AS MUCH AS THEY WERE ABLE, AND EVEN BEYOND THEIR ABILITY” – Continued -- (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[We are making that opportunity available to the members of this congregation on November 17. We will be asking you to pray and plan on giving to retire the indebtedness of this congregation… This day of special sharing goes far beyond the monetary gifts. It is the measure of our spiritual depth… There is anticipation for this day that swells in my heart. I am excited to see the amount of that day’s contribution. I know that it will be an encouragement to brethren everywhere. We can make a difference and we can be an example to other congregations… Let’s all plan on launching out in faith and giving something that measures our identity with the sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. What would you give to tell Jesus how much you love Him? TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE CRUZ: THE OLD TESTAMENT COMMAND OR LAW TO TITHE
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am disappointed in Dr. White’s short-lived understanding of the principle of liberal giving. In the latter part of the preceding article, Dr. White has reverted to the fallacious doctrine of tithing New Testament Christians when that (tithing) was required of the Israelites in the Old Testament to support the services of the Levitical priesthood. If Vision 2003 had only been a push for a fund raising campaign to take care of the indebtedness from the over-budgeted expansion projects of a few years back – no more no less – it wouldn’t be much of an issue. But to do so under the guises of (1) liberal giving to care FOR THE NEEDY and (2) tithing the New Testament Israelites for the New Testament Levitical priests is going beyond the veracity of what the entire Holy Scripture has to say about doctrinal anomalies, such as what the Madison body of believers is being exposed to. Why does he continue to teach tithing? He believes in the core statement of the tithing manual, “Taking God at His Word” by Dr. Kregg Hood, which states, “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
Dr. White has stated that “it will be an encouragement to brethren everywhere” and “we can be an example to other congregations.” Which other congregations, Dr. White? Or, is the Richland Hills Church of Christ in Texas an example to Madison? Recently, I came across that congregation’s worship program for 11/3/02, which caught my attention:
--- How Majestic Is Your Name
--- All Hail the Power of Jesus Name
--- Welcome, Kids Koins & Prayer
--- Flag Ceremony
--- Shine, Jesus, Shine
--- The Days of Elijah
--- Lord’s Supper (Wonderful, Merciful Savior)
--- Kids Chorus
--- TITHES AND OFFERINGS [emphasis, dc]
--- Kids Chorus
--- Sermon – We Speak to Nations
--- HARVEST SUNDAY OFFERING [dc]
--- Blessed Be the Lord God Almighty
--- Lord Most High
(Just FYI, Richland Hills has a Sunday morning worship attendance of about 3500. This church has “small ensembles of adult singers who lead the church through dynamic worship experiences … these praise teams provide an atmosphere in our assemblies where people can encounter God… The … Family Singers is an adult mixed CHOIR [dc] … this 50-voice group is mission-oriented, using music to draw people to Christ.")
We noted a few days ago the items listed in the commitment card that should help Vision 2003: antiques, works of art, etc. Again, we are asking the readers to add other items that should help with this tithing campaign to the ones listed below, as I’m sure the church parking lot can accommodate all of these on November 17:
--- vehicles, boats, equipment and other personal, taxable properties
--- “firstlings of your herds and of your flocks” (Deut. 12:6)
--- “tithe of corn, wine, oil” (Deut. 12:17)
--- other items to BRING WITH TITHING as commanded:
--- --- burnt offerings and sacrifices,
--- --- heave offerings,
--- --- choice vows
--- --- freewill offerings
--- --- (Deuteronomy 12:6-32)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 170.141.119.32
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests
November 12 2002, 11:04 AM
Donnie,
I am not going to comment on the Tithing issue because I have not been there and I have no idea of the motives. It goes without saying that there must be some lessons taught in a loving and understandable way to help the members see the need and the reasons for giving.
I am interested in the comment on Richland Hills and wondered if you could answer a question about the small ensembles of adult singers. Do they hold microphones in their hands and/or are they positioned up in front of the auditorium or on stage as opposed to sitting in the congregation with the rest of the assembly?
Just Curious,
Larry
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests (Nov.12.02, 11:04 AM)
November 12 2002, 4:33 PM
Larry,
I’m going to briefly mention for now a couple of things in reference to your post:
==================================================
(1) TITHING COMMAND, (2) LIBERAL GIVING PRINCIPLE, (3) VISION 2003 FUNDING
==================================================
TITHING was a requirement or a law or a command directed in Old Testament times principally and specifically to the Israelites because of the services rendered by the Levitical priesthood. There were even further specifications in regard to how the 10% was to be apportioned or appropriated. Tithing (of material items including agricultural products, firstlings of herds and flocks, etc.) was associated with other OT activities and observances previously and already mentioned numerous times. But OT tithing proponents completely ignore and reject these other OT associated commands and activities. Inconsistency on their part? Perverted doctrine? Definitely! Nowhere in the New Testament is OT tithing ever mentioned as a principle in Christian giving. Scriptural passages support the “declaration” that we are no longer under the law of Moses, but that we are under the law of Christ -- a new and better covenant. Churches of Christ “traditionally” and scripturally have always believed in giving as one has been prospered. There is no reason whatsoever to impose an Old Testament law upon a New Testament Christian.
The PRINCIPLE of LIBERAL GIVING espoused in the New Testament is self-explanatory. The main object for collecting and giving was and is to take care of NEEDY BRETHREN. The early Christians practiced common-ism (not Communism) in their sharing with the needy brethren. While there is not a restricted percentage of what one can give, liberality in giving is a vast and marked contrast to the required 10% tithing under the old law. And this is not to say that a willing Christian cannot give 95% of what he has and is able to give. This is what the churches of Christ have always believed in since New Testament times, even by the primitive Christians. But that’s only one reason for continuing to believe in the principle of liberal giving. This is what the New Testament teaches.
In regard to the VISION 2003 FUNDING, it’s just unfortunate that the current membership at Madison has unjustly inherited this huge deficit as a result of the overly ambitious, materialistic goals for expansion a few years ago. It is also the direct result of the unexpected departure of a major segment of the membership because of the recent upheaval and turmoil experienced by this church. Personally, I have no objection to this drive or campaign in order to recover … simply because the problem exists and somehow needs to be taken care of. But please do not use the command of TITHING as a gimmick by calling it a giving principle. Tithing by definition means 10 percent. It is a command and a requirement directed to the Israelites because of the Levite priests. We are not Israelites. There is now no Levitical priesthood. We as Christians are priests with Christ as our High Priest. In the final analysis, SIMPLY call it a DRIVE OR A CAMPAIGN TO RECOVER INDEBTEDNESS. Just do not associate it with TITHING. TITHING in FUNDRAISING DOES NOT COMPUTE.
============================================
==================================================
RICHLAND HILLS CHURCH OF CHRIST AND ITS MUSIC
==================================================
The information on the Richland Hills Church of Christ can best be obtained by linking to its own website: http://www.rhchurch.org/. One reason why I brought up RHCC was for the fact that it is one of the “mega” churches (like Madison was in the past) that have experienced major transitions favorable to the Charismatic and the Community Church Movements. I believe that RHCC in the past looked up to Madison for its growth in the past. And it’s possible now that the reverse is true, meaning that RHCC is Madison’s “role” model, if it isn’t the Saddleback Community Church that Tom Haddon highly advertised in a Homebuilders class. Notice in RHCC’s worship program – TITHES AND OFFERINGS, which implies to me that there are differences. And Dr. White preached in August a series of sermons on TITHING.
Accordingly, RHCC has recently made an attempt to incorporate the use of musical instruments into its worship. As far as I know, this attempt has failed. (But the RHCC eldership was ever successful in its attempt to install deaconesses in lieu of and in order to dismantle the services of the deacons as we know the Scripture teaches.) Of course, the leadership at Madison, as of this moment, claims that it has no intention of ever using musical instrumentation in worship. That’s quite understandable in that its current WORSHIP LEADER (mediator between the WORSHIP-ers and God) has his own Acappella Ministry. It is also quite understandable that musical instrumentation would be a major and drastic addition or change that it would definitely be very questionable and strongly opposed and would more likely drive away more members than ever.
Since I’ve never attended RHCCC services, I can not tell you anymore of what charismatic worshipping is going on there. I have simply relied on what I have gleaned from its own website. The misuse of the microphones and the praise team becomes a major issue to me when MUSIC and/or PERFORMANCE become the overriding factor in worship. Worship or praise throughout the Scripture is more of a PERSONAL matter in the life of the believer as it is a 24/7-commitment or affair in the God-believer personal relationship. The assembly of Christian believers is best and VERY SIMPLY exemplified in Acts 20:7 when there was that gathering for the communion and study. If singing (NOT MUSIC) were to be a part of the assembly, it would simply be for the purpose of admonishing and teaching one another. The main objective was simply to learn God’s will and singing happens to be ONE of the ways that this can be accomplished.
When the “praise team” with its performances dominates the MUSIC, it basically hinders the “congregation team” from the singing activity. You would think that there is a clear distinction being made between the “praise team” and the rest of the worshipping folks. Otherwise, the entire congregation would be the entire praise team, if there should be such a “THANG” as a praising team. No one should be able to LEAD someone else to worship God. Only Christ has that responsibility as a mediator, just as we pray to the Father in and through the name of Christ. In essence, the worship leader anywhere, including that one we have at Madison, is usurping the authority of Christ, as no one should be able to approach the holy throne of the Father except through our High Priest. I should say that if Madison’s leaders would STOP all this scripturally unauthorized or unscripturally authorized NONSENSE (whichever applies), who knows just what might happen. Those alienated BUILDERS of the church just might return to the fellowship!!!!
MUSIC, by definition, can be “vocal or instrumental sounds having rhythm, melody or harmony.” An ensemble, by definition, is a “group of singers, dancers or players.” For information on RHCC’s WORSHIP ASSEMBLIES, PRAISE MINISTRY, THE RICHLAND FAMILY SINGERS, INFINITY, please link to:
With the misguided understanding of how the Holy Spirit operates in a Christian’s life and with the charismatic and the Community Church influences, we can expect STRANGE things occurring in the assembly under the cloak of sincerity in devotion and spirituality and emotionalism – all of these coupled with the departure from the truth of what the assembly of the church was intended … as a synagogue or school to learn God’s truths. I wouldn’t be surprised if the RHCC choir members have their choral robes and microphones as they PERFORM on stage. Probably not any different in instances when the Madison choir performs on stage during assemblies other than on Sundays. Either way, now, it is MUSIC (remember that music is broader and bigger in scope than simple, reverent singing), along with other complexities, is the main thrust in worship assemblies. This is VERY, VERY, VERY sad!
==================================================
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 63.84.81.94
Re: Tithing NT
November 12 2002, 6:26 PM
Today's attempt by the YOUTH who demands respect from the OLDERS and not be SELFISH in hindering them in their TEAMING and singing contemporary songs has just ended in the predictable HISSING when I chase them through the clear Biblical text and they have no other defense but to claim that I am bitter: why ELSE would one quote that old bible?
The theme is that PSALMS are God's input but hymns are our chance to reveal the new word. I suppose like all ancient Praise Singing, God needs us to COME TO HIS AID in bringing everyone to Christ. Anyway, I have collected some notes and posted them here:
http://www.piney.com/Psalms-Hymns-Spiritual.html
It was not until the "awakenings" on the wild frontier and the adoption of VOODOO that churches ceased obeying the direct commands of Paul to "teach that which is written" in our "singing" effort.
As for Richland Hills I noted the FLAG CEREMONY which makes the PROGRESSIVE LEAP into the DISCIPLES act of idolatry certain. ANY ritual which grasps the visual and aural ATTENTION of the congregation is an attempt to use RITUAL and pagan ceremony to STEAL the worship from Lord Jesus Christ.
Christ is the ENSIGN for believers, flags and banners are ancient idols and Calvin says that the "Organ is the Ensign (mark) of Baal."
Too bad that the UNITY MEETINGS with the Disciples have done what the DISCIPLES did in the last SOWING OF DISCORD by adding music.
And it is too bad that a large body of seemingly LITERATE people can let preachers just lie, lie, lie about the use of MUSIC in the Bible. I think that THEY know that the MUSIC word is more related to Satan and tells God: "We will not listen to Your Word." Job 21, Amos 5, 6 and 8; Isaiah 5 and Ezekiel 33.
Two of these passages related directly to SATURN (666) worship with music and also speaks of the lust to seduce Ezekiel and God just as the clergy attempted on Jesus.
Churches MUST excommunicate that small band of LOCUSTS who have decided to steal the church houses of widows and give them to the Disciples. And someone had better look at the ELDER SELECTION process where Biblical illiterate but "college educated" men are preacher- seduced into BUILDING TEMPLES. Build a mega- church and Satan will come.
Don't give a penny to any church which has proven itself treacherous. Sometimes it is a SIN to give-ah you-ah tithe-as und offerings-ah to keep-a God from-a cursing-a you. Isn't that like a "pray-ur cloth-uh" or sum-thing-uh from TBN?
Ken Sublett
(no login) 170.141.119.32
Re: Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests (Nov.12.02, 11:04 AM)
November 13 2002, 1:11 PM
Donnie,
Thanks for the tithing lesson. I firmly agree with your statement about the overly ambitious, materialistic goals for expansion a few years ago. It “is” unfortunate that the current membership at Madison has inherited this debt but I believe that the over-ambition and materialism are still present and am not convinced that the word “unjustly” applies. It “should” be called a DRIVE OR A CAMPAIGN TO RECOVER INDEBTEDNESS and “not” associated with TITHING.
You are exactly right “The entire congregation IS and SHOULD BE the Praise Team. There should never be a separated sect of individuals visibly PERFORMING (and I use that term firmly) and/or dominantly audible in a worship service of the Church. The song service in worship, while it does teach and admonish, is also to unify the Spirit of the congregation and direct our minds to Spiritual and Truthful things. When there are visibly separated performers who are dominantly audible in the worship song service, this can be classified as FAKING IT, which is definitely ARTIFICIAL. SEPARATION CAN’T BUILD UNITY. ARTIFICIALITY CAN’T BE TRUE. The song service, in worship service assemblies, is a much different thing than a Choir, Chorus, Praise Team or even a Band performing at any other time in the church building. The Church “building” is just a “building”. The “congregation” is the “church”. I’m not really directing that statement to anything you said; I just thought it was a good place to say it.
I do not see anything wrong with people who like to sing sitting together in the auditorium in worship. I see a lot wrong with it being considered part of the “WORSHIP LEARDERSHIP”. The “SINGING” is a large part of the worship service and should be the best it can be. However, “MUSIC” is not a worship activity and it IS sad, not to mention “out of character” for it to be the Main Thrust in the worship assembly of the Church of Christ. It is sad for it to be the main thrust in any denomination for that matter.
Larry.
Fred (no login) 68.53.141.176
Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13
November 14 2002, 12:28 PM
D.C.:
Dr. White has stated that “it will be an encouragement to brethren everywhere” and “we can be an example to other congregations.” Which other congregations, Dr. White? Or, is the Richland Hills Church of Christ in Texas an example to Madison? Recently, I came across that congregation’s worship program for 11/3/02, which caught my attention:
To Donnie: Did you not have enough data without endless repetition so that you had to post a list of the songs used at RHCC under the Madison Timeline thread? That was a little misleading, wasn't it?
Lawrence: Thank you for not signing off "In love and humility," this time. There is nothing of either in the statement below nor in what followed.
L.B: Thanks for the tithing lesson. I firmly agree with your statement about the overly ambitious, materialistic goals for expansion a few years ago. It “is” unfortunate that the current membership at Madison has inherited this debt but I believe that the over-ambition and materialism are still present and am not convinced that the word “unjustly” applies. It “should” be called a DRIVE OR A CAMPAIGN TO RECOVER INDEBTEDNESS and “not” associated with TITHING.
Glad you gentlemen have each other to pat on the back so your arms do not get so sore from patting yourselves.
(no login) 170.141.119.32
Re: Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13
November 14 2002, 1:26 PM
Fred,
I did not intend to ruffle feathers as it sounds from the tone of your response. I am a sinner and I do not mean to sound like anything more. I am a Christian who loves God and I am Humble. I am also a Man who calls things the way that he sees them. I am not appologizing for the statement. May the Lord Bless You and keep you Fred.
In Love and Humility,
Larry
Eddie Williams (no login) 68.53.151.223
Re: Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13
November 14 2002, 5:36 PM
Larry,
You are also a man that does not attend the Madison Church of Christ. How can you judge/guess when you have not been there?
(no login) 170.141.119.32
Re: Re: Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13
November 15 2002, 11:32 AM
Eddie,
You are correct, I have not been there lately. However, I was probably a member there for a much longer length of time than you have been. I don't know that for a fact but I'm just guessing. That is how my views were formulated.
Many people may not consider me qualified to make statements here or anywhere else. I have been a member of the Church of Christ for my entire 41 years on this earth and I have come to a firm understanding of just what that means. I believe, in my heart, that I am qualified and this is an excellent means for me to express this. It can be read and responded to if desired. I wish for more responses especially from members of the Church.
This forum causes me to think hard about what I am going to say before I say it. It also causes me to turn to the bible and prayer for answers and study more about many different issues.
Thank you for the response.
Larry
Amelia (no login) 68.53.141.176
For Mr. Bennett's consideration
November 15 2002, 3:41 PM
I really don't mean to pick on you, but if you are sincere in your statement that you want to study and pray more for answers, please consider the following.
Mr. Bennett: I have been a member of the Church of Christ for my entire 41 years on this earth and I have come to a firm understanding of just what that means.
If the above is true, were you baptized as an infant? I have never known that to be a practise associated with the Church of Christ.
Also, can a man who describes HIMSELF as humble, really be that in fact?
Just some thoughts for your further study.
Born biologically and born again spiritually several years later by obedience in baptism for remission of sins,
Amelia
(no login) 170.141.119.32
Re: Re: For Mr. Bennett's consideration
November 15 2002, 5:05 PM
Ms. Amelia,
Thank you for not PICKING on me but I believe that you are Nit-PICKING. You are right that I was not a "MEMBER" until I was baptized when I was 12. I was trying to stress that I had attended the Church of Christ for all this time and I believe you know what I meant. Yes, Humility is a quality that you "can" know about yourself and practice. I AM A HUMBLE person but very repelling to people who "exalt themselves".
Matthew 23:12 "And whoever exalts himself will be abased, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
Thank you for your thoughts,
Larry.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13 (Fred) November 14 2002, 12:28 PM
November 14 2002, 3:52 PM
Fred,
In the world of psychology, repetition or reinforcement is key to learning. If you’re not aware of it yet, I am here to tell you that that is exactly what I am trying to accomplish: repeat, repeat and repeat. I get suspicious at times when silence on the part of those who are unwilling or close-minded to relearn things that they have forgotten … is deafening. While I’m getting the impression that you are one of those unwilling to re-learn what has been uniquely, traditionally and scripturally “church of Christ” beliefs to begin with, I’ll give you a lot of credit for expressing your negative reaction to what I have been doing: “endless repetition.”
No, Fred, I have plenty of data. “The half has never yet been told.” But since you brought up RHCC, it appears that you feel insulted that between the two congregations (RHCC and MCC), there has been a reversal in fortunes or misfortunes, however you want to look at it, in terms of membership and ministries. But that’s not to say that BOTH have had very strong charismatic and Community Church influences, and that BOTH have been major factors in the apostasy actively taking place before our own eyes in the 21st century church of our Lord. It is the same pattern of apostasy from the early church on the part of what eventually became the Roman Catholic Church.
I am glad that you noticed the list of songs used at RHCC. And how could you say that was misleading when the list was clearly identified as RHCC’s. Regardless, you completely missed the point. You should have noticed the “FLAG CEREMONY” (ritual), “Kids Koins” and Kids choruses, “TITHES and OFFERINGS” [oops, there must be some difference because of the word “and”], “HARVEST SUNDAY OFFERING” [one more]. And you’re right, the emphasis on the CCM’s: (1) CONTEMPORARY CHRISTIAN MUSIC, (2) the COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT, and (3) the CHARISMATIC CHRISTIANITY MISHMASH. Similar activities are present in the second service – the Madison Community Church worship assembly.
What else can I say about the “diversity” at Madison? There are still many “traditionalists” [for lack of a better word] present in the Community Church worship assembly at Madison.
Larry and I do not know each other personally, but we both agree that MUSIC (which is the main thrust in the secularized, contemporary “Christian” worship), with all the extraneous social activities and performances to go along, even under the pretense of sincerity and devotion, has caused the church to be divided and be diverted from the true meaning of reverent worship. Cheerleading or clapping is by no means an expression of reverential treatment of our Father in heaven. Can you just visualize meeting our heavenly Father face to face and giving Him a round of applause (with programmed and rehearsed handclapping)? Or should you look at Him with AWE and REVERENCE and very politely addressing Him as “Our Father” or “Jehovah”?
Finally, I do acknowledge that you are surrounded by a bunch of Community Church movers and contemporary change agents – still recruiting. They’re all there to continue to disrupt and divert the church and pervert the truth. They’re not going to stop until what we consider churches of Christ, if there is still any left, have all become charismatic and Community churches in action. They and you can pat each other on the back. And your arms getting sore – you all can handle that.
============
Donnie Cruz
Dennis (no login) 206.215.243.250
Re: Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13 (Fred) November 14 2002, 12:28 PM
November 15 2002, 12:02 AM
Alright now, first of all, Donnie how in the world can I guy with so little intelligence and common sense have the balls to say that clapping your hands is not reverant. That is outright ridiculous in your own judgement. Whether you say it is or not isn't my point. You go on and on with all the nonsense. Why don't you just face up to those you are hurting? What I see with this site is that it is unChristianlike to see people throwing punches back and forth at one another. Think for a minute, would Jesus want us arguing over this? I don't think so. I have been a faithful member of the Madison Church for almost 12 years and have seen the love in the eyes of so many people. However over the past few years I have seen the hurt in the eyes of so many people too. It isn't just those people you like to label as "change agents" or "holyrollers" or "Community Church" crowd. You tend to point the blame at these people only. If you knew first hand that several of the former members caused a stir by making various threats towards individuals and staff of the church which is very unChristian. People that I couldn't even imagine doing such a thing. Godly men and women who were faithful to this church as leaders and elders, etc.. Don't we have the freedom to worship God freely? Whether it be with a harp as David used or lifting our hands and applauding by praising Him for being our Creator, our Lord, and our Father.
Dennis
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13 (by Fred) from Dennis, 11-15-02, 12:02 AM
November 15 2002, 1:37 PM
Bringing up handclapping, holy-rolling and change infiltrating seems to be the only way THESE DAYS to get the handclapping, holy-rolling and change agents to defend THEIR CAUSE of diverting, perverting, distracting, interrupting, destroying, intruding, deviating and acquiring. You apparently have failed to see that what’s happened at Madison especially in the last few years has been the RESULT of all the “INGs” I have described in the beginning of this paragraph. Speaking of what is “unChristianlike” … that is exactly a great description of what the intruders have done at Madison. Why do you think that the “builders” (that Tom Haddon speaks of) have sought fellowship somewhere else?
Dennis, if you really want to be that programmatically “JOYFUL” in the presence of OTHERS, you have all the “FREEDOM TO WORSHIP” [your own words] at the various locations I have researched for you. I’m sure you will find all the contemporary “Christian” MUSIC in these fellowships. The only difference might be that the communion is observed quarterly, semi-annually or annually. But it “shouldn’t” [?] be hurtful for you to intrude upon their affairs and introduce the weekly observance of the Lord’s Supper JUST AS (in the same manner as) all the NONSENSE things have been introduced to the Madison body by the change agents. Furthermore, you will find at these places EVERYTHING you need for your contemporary worship to be satisfying and really “spirit-filled” [in the charismatic sense]. And then SOME! Some of the churches you can join fellowship with are as follows, especially the first one, just a few blocks away from the Madison Community Church:
--- Cornerstone Church, Madison (MCC’s neighbor)
--- Woodmont Hills Family of God (formerly Church of Christ)
--- Belmont Church (formerly Church of Christ)
--- Hendersonville Chapel
--- First Community Church, 1815 Knowles St.
--- Holy Trinity Community Church, Donelson
--- Old Hickory Community Church
--- Christ Church, 15354 Old Hickory Blvd
--- Blessed Savior Prayer Community, 312 Donelson Pike
--- Trevecca Community Church of the Nazarene
--- Plus numerous OTHER Community Churches.
If and when you decide to worship with THOSE of KINDRED mind and spirit (in your situation), please keep us posted. We may have to recommend the same to others in order for the churches of Christ to remain intact and un-infiltrated.
=========
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 68.53.151.223
Donnie, Please explain??
November 15 2002, 7:09 PM
You said: "We may have to recommend the same to others in order for the churches of Christ to remain intact and un-infiltrated".
What does this mean? Does it mean that only certain people are invited? Does it mean you shun others that don't do as you do. Does it mean that if you are not a member of the church of Christ you are not saved? Or, maybe it means you have to be a member of a specific church of Christ to be saved? How did Christianity suddenly become a closed click? And, Who appointed you as the one to say who can worship where??
How ARROGANT!! can you get.
Remember when I LISTED a number of Community Churches, which I thought might be suited to Dennis’ liking and worship needs? You see … these churches are very, very EXPERIENCED in many worship activities that the second assembly at Madison had been deprived of for decades, has just recently been introduced to and is still learning. Think of the YEARS OF EXPERIENCE that these [community] churches already have: choir, handclapping instrumentation, musical instruments, “feeling the presence of the Holy Spirit,” women leading men, etc., that were NEVER, NEVER, NEVER practiced by churches of Christ for years and years, including Madison. Remember, Eddie? These well established Community Churches are the fellowships that I thought folks like Dennis and probably you, Eddie, would be very comfortable in.
It is possible that you may have taken something out of context because this is what I said following the LIST: “If and when you decide to worship with THOSE of KINDRED mind and spirit (in your situation), please keep us posted. We may have to recommend the same to others in order for the churches of Christ to remain intact and un-infiltrated.”
Let me explain, then. By “THOSE OF KINDRED mind and spirit” simply means being of the same kind or having that common ground advantage where conflict is not likely to occur. Dennis’ strong affinity to the CCM worship style would not be questioned in these fellowships. He would fit right in and be comfortable. He would not be offending the “traditionalists” because more likely they would not be worshipping there. So, I said, “If and when you decide to worship with” those of a kind … to “keep us posted.” That “we may have to recommend the same,” I was simply referring to the SAME LIST of those Community Churches. “To others” means “other folks who believe in the worship ‘style’ that Dennis is endeared to.” “For the churches of Christ to remain intact and un-infiltrated” simply means that the “traditionalist” churches of Christ will be left alone, not be disrupted, and not be divided.
How ARROGANT can I get? Not anymore arrogant than the self-designated or self-appointed or titled WORSHIP LEADER, who is usurping the authority of Christ, our mediator and High Priest. We DO NOT WORSHIP through the leadership of another human being like you or me. Jesus Christ, not your WORSHIP LEADER, mediates between us and our Father in heaven.
========
Donnie
Most of the answers you seek can be found in the Bible.
Mat 20:16 "So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."
Mat 7:14 "Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
Mat 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"
Mat 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Mat 24:39 "And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
Mat 24:40 "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left."
Prayerfully Onward,
Kevin
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
# Re: Donnie, Please explain?? (Eddie Williams)
November 17 2002, 3:14 PM
Kevin,
I am very aware of what these scriptures say. I want to hear Donnie's opinion and yours, if you wish, on the questions I asked. And while you are at it, please tell me how you can make a judgment call on what is happening at Madison, all the way from Texas.
At least Donnie attends, and that gives him the right to "call it as he sees it", even though I don't agree with at lot of what he says.
Donnie, I'm sure you will report on the beautiful singing this morning. 1st service singing was also excellent.
The Word of God is the Word of God whether you are in TN or in TX.
Your attempt to divert from that truth will not succeed.
I pray that your eyes will be opened and you will see and that by hearing you will hear:
Mat 13:10 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?"
Mat 13:11 "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."
Mat 13:12 "For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath."
Mat 13:13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Jhn 8:43 "Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word."
Jhn 8:44 "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
Jhn 8:45 "And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not."
2Ti 3:1 "This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come."
2Ti 3:2 "For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,"
2Ti 3:3 "Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,"
2Ti 3:4 "Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;"
2Ti 3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
2Ti 3:6 "For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,"
2Ti 3:7 "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
You seemed trapped by the scriptures that Kevin quoted you. But you’d be trapped again if I quoted you the same scriptures. So, if you are “very aware of what these scriptures say,” then why don’t you quote them yourself in answer to your own questions? I also sense that you resent ANYONE who is scriptural-minded and a brother of yours (supposedly) who happens to be worshipping at another congregation of the Lord’s church. Your RESENTMENT is pretty obvious, Eddie. You need to reread Kevin’s response earlier and prove to him and to the world that he was making “a judgment call on what is happening at Madison, all the way from Texas.” He did nothing else but quoted you the scriptures.
You do want to hear Donnie’s opinion and Kevin’s (if he wishes) “on the questions” you asked. What questions, Eddie? Could you please state your questions in your next post, please? Also, I wonder why you are more interested in someone’s opinion than in the scriptures? That’s odd! What’s even more odd is that your Community Church friends and you are lacking in scriptural support and evidence for all the NONSENSE stuff that’s been incorporated in a church gathering -- which was and is supposedly intended for the observance of the Communion shared by the believers and for learning God’s will (Acts 20:7).
OK, Eddie. You have an assignment. It’s not coming from me. You brought this on yourself. Can you give me a list of: “I don’t agree with a lot of what he [Donnie] says.” Not only a list, but also reasons (“your” own as “you” see it) why I’m wrong! What does “a lot” mean? Is it 3 or 10 or countless? I am so-o-o-o worried!
Eddie, you are exactly right. If I don’t forget it, I will report on the “beautiful singing this morning.” Nobody ever questions how beautiful the MUSIC is PERFORMED by the Community Church CHOIR. I am always ENTERTAINED, aren’t you? I am so thrilled at what the “PRAISE TEAM” members can do for me. They sing for me. They sing to me. They make me feel “so good” and do something to my “nerve endings.” I don’t have to sing anymore. Between you and me, who do you think is more ENTERTAINED? I think Donnie is MORE ENTERTAINED by the “praise team” performance than Eddie is.
It’s about time someone said how the “1st service singing was also excellent.” “Excellent” translates to “it can’t get any better or be improved,” right, Eddie? That simply means that singing WITHOUT the USE OR MISUSE of the “praise team” is doing just fine. And why, then, divide the church over some unnecessary NONSENSE? I certainly hope you get the picture.
++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie
(no login) 68.53.151.223
Kevin, Hold on just a minute.
November 18 2002, 11:45 AM
Kevin wrote:
"The Word of God is the Word of God whether you are in TN or in TX."
I completely agree to that statement.
Kevin wrote:
"Your attempt to divert from that truth will not succeed."
How did you come to this conclusion? Do you know me? Have you attended even one worship service at Madison? Please tell me me how you can sit in Texas, and make judgment calls about the Madison Church of Christ? You are pulling all sorts of scriptures out of context and I just don't see the connection. The scripture has to be read in it's entirety to get the TRUE meaning.
How can you judge if my eyes are open or not?
For that matter, how do you know I go to church anywhere? Maybe I come over here just to "stir the pot" with ya'll for a while. Maybe I'm not a Christian. Just think for a second what someone that is searching thinks about ALL of us that write on this web-site. Are we doing more harm than good? I think so!!
OK, Kevin, no more scripture, just answer all of these questions.
==================================================
EDDIE WILLIAMS STATES AND ASKS:
==================================================
Ok, You answered question one. What about the rest?
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DONNIE REALLY WONDERS ABOUT EDDIE’S ORIGINAL QUESTION[S?]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Eddie, my recollection is that you asked only ONE question, which you desperately qualified with: “Does it mean … Does it mean … Does it mean … Or, maybe it means … How did … Who appointed you …” ALL in one paragraph and ALL in reference to the same original question, “What does this mean?”
I thought I gave you a very detailed answer to your question of “What does this mean?” I even went as far as explaining myself relative to your last statement, “How ARROGANT!! can you get.” That was not even a question. That was a statement. But I simply needed to explain that if you were speaking of arrogance, just direct that question or statement to YOUR WORSHIP LEADER of the Madison Community Church that assembles at 10:30AM. Where? At the Madison Church of Christ building! You know, it is the SAME building where the original body of believers (whom you label as “traditionalists”) meets. But it also shares the same building with another and different group, the [what-u-wanna-call-it] “contemporary” handclapping charismatics. You know, that one with the handclapping choir or “PRAISE TEAM” that performs and entertains and sings for and to the folks.
Just in case you really had other questions besides that one “What does this mean?” … I’ll give you the benefit by asking you to specifically state the “REST” of the question(s) that I did not answer.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
The Questions
November 18 2002, 3:14 PM
Donnie,
In my limited use of the English language, I thought the questions were very plain and simple. You claim you are trying to teach. So, teacher, here are the questions.
Does it mean that only certain people are invited?
Does it mean you shun others that don't do as you do?
Does it mean that if you are not a member of the church of Christ you are not saved?
Or, maybe it means you have to be a member of a specific church of Christ to be saved?
How did Christianity suddenly become a closed click?
And, Who appointed you as the one to say who can worship where?
The student does not wish to be "diverted" to any other assignment, until the teacher answers these questions.
You are invited to the soundroom, at either service, to discuss this privately, if that makes you more comfortable.
Eddie
Amelia (no login) 68.53.141.176
The Questions
November 20 2002, 9:22 PM
I hope you haven't lost any sleep waiting for your questions to be answered. They are too direct and simple. This post will be ignored by Cruise, Sublett, and Hamm (Moe, Larry, & Curly?) like all others that ask for simple answers to simple questions.....no room for diversion and distortion.
Dennis (no login) 65.58.105.51
Re: D.C. post 11/11 and L. Bennett Reply 11/13 (by Fred) from Dennis, 11-15-02, 12:02 AM
November 17 2002, 10:54 PM
Alright "Cruise Control!"
Quit beating around the bush and answer my questions. You totally ramble on and on and I am quite happy to be a part of the Madison Church family. It was totally uncalled for and unneccessary for you to ramble on and on about other churches that you say fit this "contemporary community church form". FYI, let me point out that the Woodmont Hills may say Woodmont Hills Family of God but it is a Church of Christ. There is nothing that is against scripture that these faithful Christians are doing in their praise and worship to the Almighty God. Also, you label us as "intruders". You have no right in your little brain to say anything about intrusion. How dare you just point the blame and judge those you call holy rollers, or change agents? Why don't you go to first service? It seems like it would be more of a fit for you? Until you fully realize that all you are doing is wasting your time and everybody else's. Grow up or either SHUT UP!
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
Re: Cruise Control
November 18 2002, 12:35 PM
To the moderator: You may get this twice. If so, Please use this one.
********************************************************
Let's "lighten up" a little on Donnie. I believe he is afraid to get to know us. The love we have for the LORD and each other might rub off on him. :-)) I pray it will. Yesterday was a Titian's home game, so many from 2nd service attended 1st service. I was there for both services, and observed people worshiping the LORD, and not concerned about the content or the time. Ain't that great?
Back to Donnie: I suggest that more of us introduce our selves to you. You should not have to worship in a place where you did not know who Tom Haddon is, when he came to speak to you. Donnie, What's up with this "make an appointment" to talk to you. It seems you wish to be "untouchable"? That is not what the scriptures teach, and certainly not how we act at Madison. So, why don't you quit being a stranger at the place you worship? We don't care what you've said or written on this site. If we are to do what Jesus says, then we have to accept you just as you are.
It's up to you. It's your choice. Get to know us, or stand on the outside and wish you had what we have.
I'm in the soundroom, both services.
Side note: As of Sunday afternoon (11.17.02) The money raised for debt retirement is $397,527.45. Ain't that great? Ain't that wonderful? (Ya'll don't mind if I borrow an Ira phrase?)
This is typical of the change agent's attitude. They believe they are somehow more enlightened than the rest of us and that if we could just know a little of what they know, then we would understand. But we just don't understand, so we have to stand outside the inner circle.
This reminds me of "The Emperor's New Clothes" by Hans Christian Andersen. Most are afraid to admit that they don't understand or that they don't feel the same things that the "inner circle" understands and feels.
Well, folks, we're here to tell you that the Emperor's New Clothes were imaginary. That's right, he was naked as a jaybird.
The people in the "inner circle" don't have the inside track when it comes to knowing and loving the LORD.
I find it interesting that your only problem with my previous post was the term "change agent".
Change: a. To cause to be different
b. To give a completely different form or
appearance to
Agent: One that acts or has the power or authority to
act.
Change Agent: One that acts or has the power or
authority to act to cause something to
be different or to give something a
completely different form or appearance
to
The term "change agent" was coined by the "change agents" themselves. It is not disparaging unless one believes it to be.
Kevin
(no login) 204.30.61.37
I Can Only Imagine
November 15 2002, 10:38 AM
Donnie,
That’s a good question you ask. Allow me to repeat it here.
[D.C.]
Can you just visualize meeting our heavenly Father face to face and giving Him a round of applause (with programmed and rehearsed handclapping)? Or should you look at Him with AWE and REVERENCE and very politely addressing Him as “Our Father” or “Jehovah”?
Donnie, What if you fall at His feet, face down, in worship and reverence and He reaches down to lift your face toward His. What if He picks you up in His arms and says, “Come , my son, join in the celebration with your brothers and sisters. Look over there! It’s your Savior, Jesus calling your name to join in the party. Look, there are only smiles and laughter. There are no more tears and pains. I appreciate your sincerity and reverence. You held Us in high regard. Thank you for taking your salvation with reverence. Join the party now!”
I can only imagine!
Erik Frantz
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: I Can Only Imagine (Erik Frantz) November 15 2002, 10:38 AM
November 15 2002, 4:48 PM
Erik,
“That’s a good question you ask.” Thank you for that remark, Erik.
I thought I’d heard that topic “I Can Only Imagine” before. I reverted to one of your posts under the thread, “Is Baptism Essential to Be Saved?” in the “SUNDAY SCHOOL IN EXILE” link. My memory about the song “I Can Only Imagine” has been refreshed.
You know, Erik, when that time of rejoicing comes after I’ve been judged as being eternally saved to enjoy life everlasting, there’s no telling what kind of natural reaction and excitement I’ll be expressing. IT WON’T BE PROGRAMMED AND REHEARSED for sure! It will be ALL NATURAL, PURE, UNADULTERATED JOY! That is right … the party will begin at that time! Right now, I am concentrating on making it to heaven. Right now, it’s just not the right time to be partying!
If you are really seeking PERSONAL “feel good” satisfaction in your praise and worship, let me refer you to the list of Community Churches that will certainly be able to OFFER you exactly what you need. The list is under my earlier response to Dennis. In case you’re from out of town, this type of fellowship should not be too difficult to find.
I can only imagine!
===========
Donnie Cruz
Fred (no login) 68.53.141.176
It appears....... D. Cruz
November 15 2002, 3:23 PM
Statement from Fred:
To Donnie: Did you not have enough data without endless repetition so that you had to post a list of the songs used at RHCC under the Madison Timeline thread? That was a little misleading, wasn't it?
Reply from D.C:
While I’m getting the impression that you are one of those unwilling to re-learn what has been uniquely, traditionally and scripturally “church of Christ” beliefs to begin with, I’ll give you a lot of credit for expressing your negative reaction to what I have been doing: “endless repetition.”
And further from D.C:
But since you brought up RHCC, it appears that you feel insulted that between the two congregations (RHCC and MCC), there has been a reversal in fortunes or misfortunes, however you want to look at it, in terms of membership and ministries.
And more from D.C.:
And you’re right, the emphasis on the CCM’s: (1) CONTEMPORARY CHRISTIAN MUSIC, (2) the COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT, and (3) the CHARISMATIC CHRISTIANITY MISHMASH. Similar activities are present in the second service – the Madison Community Church worship assembly.
I have re-posted my comment to you above. You got the following 3 paragraphs and more from 2 sentences????? What about the statement "And you're right, the emphasis on CCM's, etc.??? You have certainly made a number of assumptions from two questions. But that was your plan, wasn't it? Bait someone to post and then make up an entire dissertation on it. Yes, I will admit it -- I fell into your trap this time. Hopefully, after clarifying matters with this post, I won't make THAT mistake again.
To answer an ASSUMPTION you made, no, I am not insulted by what YOU deem a reversal in fortune or misfortune between Madison Church of Christ and RHCC. I hope both continue to prosper in winning souls to Christ regardless of numbers and in spite of those of you who would "obviously" rejoice if either or both were to perish tomorrow. Whether one or the other has bigger numbers is completely irrelevant to me.
You tend to get a lot of "impressions" and state "It appears" from a many posts whether the facts are there or not. Let me tell you what "appears" and what "impression" I am getting about you from what you post on this web site....."It appears" obvious and my "impression" is that I know who you serve (and who is the best at deception)......it is not Jesus Christ, the son of God, who dwelt among sinners on earth and died for their salvation.
Final quote from D. Cruz: They’re all there to continue to disrupt and divert the church and pervert the truth. ---- From Fred: To find that, look in the mirror.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain. -- 1 Cor. 3
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: It appears....... D. Cruz (by Fred) November 15 2002, 3:23 PM
November 15 2002, 5:35 PM
Fred,
Just be glad I do use expressions like “it appears” and “getting the impression.” They are a lot “gentler and kinder” than so many of the other forms of expression.
ASSUMPTIONS! ASSUMPTIONS! ASSUMPTIONS! Since you weren’t insulted by what “I” deem a reversal … between RHCC and MCC, I’m needing your advice. Should I have stated INSTEAD that it is the leadership (in charge) that would be insulted and provoked by my statement? After all, it is the leadership that is and should be concerned about a congregation prospering or dwindling, right? But, again, by making a similar statement to the leadership, it would “appear” or “give the impression” that I’m yet making another “assumption.”
Me, too, Fred. I would prefer for congregations of the Lord’s church to grow and prosper, but not by deception and by compromising God’s truth as the change agents have done. It “appears” [sorry] that in your last statements, you were boiling inside and had gotten very judgmental. Well, I am glad that you are not my judge, as you would rejoice in sending me to hell. Finally, my friend, unless you can prove to me that I am teaching anything new and different than what the scriptures teach, you have no business accusing me of disrupting and diverting. The truth of the matter is that all the I-N-G-S that I have stated are the trademark of the CCM and those associated with it.
Are you old enough to recall what it had been all like in the churches of Christ before the long-haired “Jesus only” advocates of years past and the recent contemporary movers got the body of Christ infected and contaminated? People like you need to look in the mirror and see how badly you have mutilated and mangled the spiritual bride of Christ.
====================
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 63.84.81.51
It appears...
November 15 2002, 7:09 PM
I'm glad that someone stumbled onto the truth about where the TEMPLE of the living God is built. Back up and hear Jesus repudiate the PLACE of Mount Gerazim and Jerusalem (identified as Sodom, Egypt, Babylon) as the PLACE where God as pure or holy Spirit meets people to accept their worship.
Animals as the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ were slaughtered to the beat of loud instruments which were NOT musical OUTSIDE of even the CARNAL TEMPLE.
Jesus said that the new PLACE is in spirit: that does not mean enraptured (raped) or enthus O mania or madness as in Corinth. Rather the human spirit is the human mind or heart. The totality of Godhead lives in our human spirit by faith as the spiritual MOST HOLY PLACE.
We plan to keep repeating it for newbies: the COURT was the slaughter pen of the TYPE of Jesus Christ who was prophesied to be MOCKED by the Judas gang as He became the LAST "lamb" to be slaughtered: No slaughter priests, no mocking musicians (noise makers), no TITHING: don't commit an unforgivable sin to support those who have fallen from grace.
A person who has faith in that long ago sacrifice with long silenced Military Panic Instrumentalists, and one who has been washed in the LAVER by Christ Himself is now able to be a priest in the Holy Place. In the Apostolic Constitutions no MUSICIAN was allowed in the church.
Any singer, clapper or musician as the mark of the roving prostitutes and Sodomites in Jerusalem-- unless making animal sacrifice-- who ventured into the Holy Place even to clean out the garbage would be executed.
The Holy Place is the TYPE of the church: it represented by the Menorah the "seven spirits of God" all related to Divine knowledge (Isaiah 11), the table of showbread preaching or showing forth the ongoing value of the sacrifice, and the incense altar where our PERSONAL prayers are offered pointed into the Most Holy Place. The church or holy place is the BODY OF CHRIST.
The Most Holy Place where baptized believers "come boldly before the throne of Grace" is the human spirit being given "co perception" or "A holy spirit" to make it fit to WORSHIP Lord Jesus Christ Who is the HEAD OF THE BODY. All worship is IN SPIRIT which is the human spirit meeting Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and full deity, in the new spiritual temple.
No singers, clappers (nail drivers into heads) or musicians in the Holy Place-- NEVER, and not now in the church or synagogue or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where EACH priest must participate and there are no LEARNING TEAMS of singers and clappers.
No singers, clappers in the Most Holy Place or in OUR OWN mind as the ONLY place God will even seek us as we seek Him by GIVING HEED to His Word as the only spiritual TRUTH.
Temples, Teams, Tithes, Titles; Altars, Animals are all part of the Monarchy added because of the musical transgressin at Mount Sinai and REPUDIATING GOD as King. Music ATTACKED the TYPE of Christ but honored Molech or Saturn whose number is 666. As a Syrian form of worship Isaiah 30 says that God will DESTROY them to the beat of music. Is that what is happening now?
It is the PROPHESIED SIGN of the end time Saturn as reaper who helps thrust in the sickle (musical instrument) of the Babylonian Harlot who lusts for the things Temple worship gave to the rich by taking tithes from the poor: It was the priests who were ROBBING GOD.
If we plan to meet God in His chosen temple of our human spirit, mind or heart, for goodness sakes don't be duped into thinking that you can GIVE HEED to the Words of Christ with noisy "children piping trying to get Jesus to sing and dance" with Bacchus the god of wine and new wineskins.
Remember that David never performed in a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM. What he did is what Paul also commands:
I remembered God, and was troubled (moan): I complained, and MY spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Ps.77:3
--Thou holdest mine eyes waking: I am so troubled that I cannot speak. Psa 77:4
--I call (Mention, burn incense) to remembrance my song (h5058) in the NIGHT:
----I commune with mine OWN heart: and MY spirit made diligent search. Psalm 77:6
Siyach (h7878) see'-akh; a prim. root; to ponder, i. e. (by impl.) converse (with oneself, and hence aloud) or (trans.) utter: - commune, complain, declare, meditate, muse, pray, speak, talk (with).
Sing unto him, sing psalms unto HIM:
---talk ye of all his wondrous works. Ps.105:2
Because the NEW PRIESTS like the old priests failed as SHEPHERDS and just MUDDIED THE WATERS, they were ROBBING GOD by taking the tithes to SLAUGHTER the type of Lord Jesus Christ WITH LOUD MUSIC OR NOISE.
By REPUDIATING the finished work of Jesus Christ, the new self-selected PRIESTS AND LEVITES demand the SAME TITHE but they too ROB GOD because not one member can go away from the Holy Place as school of the Bible and be able to SING AND MAKE MELODY in their human SPIRIT which means that the restored towers of Babel TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE and absolutely shut off all worship IN THE SPIRIT when the children play while others are trying to get IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY.
If you were on Patmos and John was IN THE SPIRIT ON THE LORD'S DAY seeing visions not otherwise possible WOULD YOU sing, clap, dance and PLAY to "lead him into the presence of God"?
Ken Sublett
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 17, 2002)
November 18 2002, 12:51 PM
We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:
==============================================
Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001)
Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001)
Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001)
==============================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001)
--------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) -------------
--- $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002.
--- $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002.
--- $67,946 was “TITHED” on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11)
--- $52,733 was “TITHED” on August 25, 2002.
--- $46,316 was “TITHED” on September 1, 2002.
--- $43,657 was “TITHED” on September 8, 2002.
--- $48,710 was “TITHED” on September 15, 2002.
--- $41,205 was “TITHED” on September 22, 2002.
--- $40,534 was “TITHED” on September 29, 2002.
--- $40,308 was “TITHED” on October 6, 2002.
--- $43,394 was “TITHED” on October 13, 2002.
--- $40,588 was “TITHED” on October 20, 2002.
--- $40,829 was “TITHED” on October 27, 2002.
--- $40,989 was “TITHED” on November 3, 2002.
--- $44,124 was “TITHED” on November 10, 2002.
--- Tithing on November 17, 2002 will be posted on the board next Sunday.
--- ThanksGiving Tithing for Vision 2003 Retirement of Indebtedness
--- --- was collected on 11-17-02. The results might be published in
--- --- the upcoming Madison Marcher for this week.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--------------------------------------------------
---------- Special Collection ----------
--------- Sunday, November 17 ----------
-------- “Take God At His Word” --------
--------------------------------------------------
Remember Dr. Kregg Hood, as mentioned above? He authored the tithing manual, “Take God At His Word,” subtitled: “Experience the Power of Giving.” The core message of the booklet is in the second section: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
THE MADISON MARCHER (NOVEMBER 13, 2002), THE PREACHER AND TITHING
==================================================
Some anxious moments…
================================================
================================================
From the PREACHER POTPOURRI (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[There are hundreds of folks out there who would love our services if they ever EXPERIENCED {dc} one… There are great plans in the making for 2003. We should have one of the great years for Madison… Remember to INVEST IN ETERNITY TODAY at Madison. We will be talking about other ways in which we can retire this debt.]
================================================
From the “ThanksGiving Sunday TODAY” article in the Marcher:
================================================
[Our elders have set aside today, November 17, as a special day of sacrificial giving that has been appropriately named as ThanksGiving Sunday. Hopefully everyone has approached this day with time spent in prayer to our Father God as to what commitment each should make… “TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD” with the core message of “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.” (by Dr. Kregg Hood).
================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WHAT TO EXPECT IN THE ASSEMBLY WHEN CHARISMATIC LEADERS ARE IN THE MIDST:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
WORSHIP LEADER, the PRAISE TEAM and NON-ACAPELLA SINGING:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Since the CCM proponents resented the idea that I listed the songs of the RHCC praise assembly for 11/03/02 under the Madison’s Timeline thread, let me do a little shift here to MCC’s own songs. How many non-CCM (Contemporary “Christian” Music) believers are familiar with the following songs?
--- Give Thanks to the Lord
--- Come Let Us Worship and Bow Down (no sheet?)
--- Refiner’s Fire
--- East to West
--- A New Anointing
--- Let Us Worship
--- It’s All Right [secularized version of “Just a Little Talk with Jesus”]
--- Down in the River to Pray (sheet music at doors)
--- If You’re Happy and You Know It
--- Holy Ground Medley
--- My Only Hope Is You
--- God Has Smiled on Me (no sheet?)
Has it ever occurred to the WORSHIP LEADER (mediator between the worship-er and the Father) how literally standing for long minutes of singing affects the very senior saints and the disabled and the weak-kneed folks? Does this WORSHIP LEADER have any consideration for these folks’ physical restraints? Or is he just concerned how well his PRAISE TEAM performs or how well he mediates as he “CALLS” [LEADS] the FOLLOWERS to WORSHIP? From the list of songs above, obviously, the loud handclapping PRAISE TEAM members, with some help from a FEW other folks, dominated the well-rehearsed MUSIC. (Dominates … because the PRAISE TEAM rehearses. Dominates … because the congregation “rehearses” only while/as the PRAISE TEAM “performs.”) Today, the WORSHIP LEADER and HIS TEAM were really enjoying themselves, especially because the congregation “team” did not know the songs. There’s no question that the listening CONGREGATION was really ENTERTAINED. In addition, the very loud rhythmical handclapping NOISE by the FEW, with the NOISE resembling the beat of the drum, was irritating and annoying to those who really wanted to worship in reverence. Is THE WORSHIP LEADER not conscious or “unconscious” of the fact that HANDCLAPPING, as an added element, really makes singing NO LONGER acappella? Ouch! Besides, whistling more closely resembles that of vocal variation than handclapping does. At least, whistling originates from some internal body organs.
Well, “Ten Thousand Angels” (#621) was sung. Wow, that was a hymn, after all! Also, the song “When All of God’s Singers Get Home” (#839), another hymn was sung. But I wonder if the PRAISE TEAM members were thinking that the “singers” in the song referred to themselves (the singers) as the ones to “get home.”
Now, what’s happened to the song survey which indicated that even while sacred hymns are purposely being outnumbered as songs of choice and are on the verge of extinction in church singing, many of these hymns have remained as favorites?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MESSAGE: “THE JOY OF SHARING”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The congregation is now getting this “getting used to” the new concept that enjoying MUSIC for several minutes is the real PRAISE AND WORSHIP period. The confusing part of this type of development is whether or not observance of the Communion is part of the PRAISE AND WORSHIP period. I guess [only a guess] that it is part of the real WORSHIP period because it immediately follows the PRAISE MUSIC period and it is immediately followed by the LOVE FEAST. You know the LOVE FEAST where everybody greets everybody else with all kinds of noise for about a minute-and-a-half. The LOVE FEAST is a major distraction from the solemnity of the occasion of the JUST-OBSERVED Lord’s Supper.
Now that the real PRAISE AND WORSHIP (MUSIC) is over … comes the sermon. “The Joy of Sharing.” It started out with a joke about being unable to read “after LASIK surgery,” when Tom Haddon led the “congregational reading” from Colossians 3:16,17. It was followed by another joke about ThankSinging scheduled for next Sunday. Dr. White said: “by Keith Lancaster, WORSHIP LEADER & [by] Friends.” The audience laughed at the idea of the other MUSIC leader … “FRIENDS.” The sermon of “The Joy of Sharing” is self-explanatory. Worthy of notice, though, is that Dr. White did not mention “tithing” in the sermon, if I am correct. Good for you!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF):
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The charismatic leader, Robin Guidicy, had [somewhat] warned the congregation that there was something about to be done that folks were not accustomed to. In short, he made the announcement and some folks did oblige by coming forward to gather in front for some “prayer for healing” that was led by elder Pat Burch. What’s going on with all this … that it’s no longer sufficient to pray for the sick without this little gathering? Another one of those charismatic imitations? Indeed! Indeed!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I believe the CCM’s have expanded and extended their base at Madison:
--- the Community Church Movement
--- the Contemporary Christian Music
--- the Charismatic Christianity Malaise
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wake up, brethren! Intrusion, diversion, transformation, “bye-bye” to the church of Christ – these are all still alive and well and active at Madison!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 207.190.67.96
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 17, 2002)
November 18 2002, 5:43 PM
I will only deal with one issue in this post. The issues of music, love feast, etc., have been beaten to death on this site, and any further dialogue on them seems an exercise in futility. However, the issue of a healing service and whether it is scriptural or not is interesting.
Has anyone turned to the scriptures for guidance? What about James 5:13ff, that instructs those who are sick to call for the elders to "anoint them with oil" and pray for their sickness, with the promise that such prayer will "save the sick?"
About 18 years ago, my mother was diagnosed with inoperable cervical cancer. The doctors basically sent her home to die at 41 years old. Praise God that we had a minister in my home church (a Church of Christ in the strictest sense) who encouraged my folks to call our elders and ask them to lay hands on Mom, pray for her, and anoint her in the name of Jesus. Our elders did just that, and my mother is alive and well today - 18 years later - and has not one sign of cancer in her body. The tumor inside her shrank (doctors admitted that and they were stunned). The surgeon was able to get all of the cancer and Mom didn't even have to have treatment! Now, you can call that charismatic, pentecostal, or whatever you want to call it. My mother and my family call it BIBLICAL! And, yes, it is a MIRACLE, too!
Eighteen years ago the elders came to our house and did that. What if my mother had responded at a church service and asked them to do it? Per James 5:13, wouldn't it be their duty to honor her request? It seems to me that we have as much, if not more, authority for encouraging people to come forward and as for prayers for healing as to come forward for salvation matters (though it is fine to extend an invitation for that as well).
If anyone chooses to respond to this post, I hope you will respond to the content of the post, and not digress into other areas. One of the problems with this site is that many of the respondents piggy-back off of posts and go into areas that are not even addressed in posts to which they respond. Just answer the issue of prayer for healing/healing services in light of the Bible. Is it right or wrong. It is of no consequence to the Christian whether a thing is practiced by the pentecostals, charismatics, catholics, jews, or anyone else, as long as it is not forbidden in the scripture. And, please don't spew out the line that annointing as mentioned in James 5 was only for the New Testament times. That's rubbish. There is absolutely nothing in the text to indicate that.
Sincerely,
James Kisner
Dennis (no login) 65.57.51.195
Re: Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 17, 2002)
November 18 2002, 10:46 PM
Mr Kisner,
Praise God for the work He is doing in your life and through the way He has healed your mother! That is a testimony to the healing power that we see in the God we serve. I am a part of the Madison Church of Christ family and do believe in the power of prayer. I find it completely Biblical to do as they have mentioned. I just graduated from college back in May and did a summer youth ministry internship with the Overland Park Church this past summer and at the end of the summer each one of the teens in that youth ministry surrounded me and prayed over me that God would bless my future in ministry. Now I find that to be something to thank and praise God about. These teens caring enough to encourage me through their actions. Thanks for sharing this encouraging thought. God bless you in your ministry and life!
Amelia (no login) 68.53.141.176
James 5
November 19 2002, 10:05 AM
Thank you so much for reminding us of this text. It cannot get much plainer than this:
13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
The above text is to the point and easily understood. Your mother certainly understood it and by obeying, she was healed. I would guess you were all pretty merry from the good news as well and sang psalms!!
From the Donnie Cruz most recent post:
HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF): ****I, Amelia, believe this does illustrate the arrogance, diversion, and division that he has denied using****
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The charismatic leader, Robin Guidicy, had [somewhat] warned the congregation that there was something about to be done that folks were not accustomed to. In short, he made the announcement and some folks did oblige by coming forward to gather in front for some “prayer for healing” that was led by elder Pat Burch. What’s going on with all this … that it’s no longer sufficient to pray for the sick without this little gathering? Another one of those charismatic imitations? Indeed! Indeed!
I will guarantee you that, if I became sick and "went down front" to ask for prayers, I would be much more comforted by being surrounded by elders and others who cared to take my name before the Lord in fervent prayer, AS INSTRUCTED IN JAMES 5, than I would be to stand there trembling and alone. I praise God for being part of a church who would surround me physically to show love and support. Imitation: No. Biblical: Absolutely!
(no login) 63.84.81.140
Tithing Kisner
November 19 2002, 1:04 PM
Interesting thought, Jimmy: Beat them to death with music. That is the MEANING of Psallo in the EXTERNAL sense. You have not responded to my SMALL SAMPLING of Scripture to prove to you that SINGERS and PLAYERS in the Old testament are defined by words meaning PROSTITUTES or SODOMITES. Chalal or Halal is translated "play the flute, pollute or prostitute." Now, back to the REAL SUBJECT which actually DENOUNCES music and PUBLIC HEALING CEREMONIES as self-seeking:
James 5:13 Is ANY among you afflicted? let HIM pray. Is ANY merry? let HIM sing psalms.
You will notice James that we told you elsewhere that all PERFORMANCE SINGING and PLAYING is not SPIRITUAL but has only two meanings in a religious sense:
FIRST, it meant the musical mocking of TENS OF THOUSANDS of animals slaughtered and burned to a loud, horrifying noise NEVER called MUSIC. This was prophesied in Psalm 41 to be FULFILLED by Judas and the MILITARY MUSICIANS always under the slaughter KING and the COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY.
SECOND, ALL musical and instrumental terms are related to WEAPONS of the SINGERS who were wandering prostitutes and the SODOMITES who plagued ALL Old Testament Temples of which our subject church is one of.
Now, James does NOT say GO FORWARD AS A PUBLIC SPECTACLE while the MUSICAL WANDERERS are SINGING to you to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD--Replacing Lord Jesus Christ even as the Levitical Musicians TRIUMPHED OVER animal slaughter and rivers of oil and blood symbolic of CARNAL men SLAUGHTERING Lord Jesus Christ after his head was anointed and they mocked Him as they EMPALED Him on a TREE which was the ultimate PHALLIC SYMBOL OF Satan.
If done as a public SPECTACLE then the HEALING MINISTRY (hoping to raise the dead Re. Kregg Hood) getS ALL OF THE GLORY. However, if you try to remember that old READ the word public direct command of Paul you will hear James insist: CALL, pray in SECRET and God will REWARD you openly.
You notice that the FALSE JUDAISING of TITHING used ONE example to prove the CAUSE AND EFFECT of a MIRACLE of God REWARDING someone for PLEDGING to tithe to restore the Jewish Priesthood and the Christ-Attacking musical noise makers. I can line up lots of people who have PLEDGED and gotten POORER. "LYING IS DYING."
In the same way, the CALL FOR PUBLIC HEALING is a SHOTGUN approach: if we pray and someone's mother goes into remission then WE can FLAUNT this as a MIRACLE rather than answered prayer: there is a VAST difference. There are people still willing to pay you a million dollars if you can prove a cause and effect relationship. That is why Christianity is based on FAITH and not on SIGHT.
Now, hear what James REALLY SAID before it was PERVERTED for perverse purposes: the glory of the UNLAWFUL MINISTERS RIDING ON THE BACKS OF WIDOWS:
James 5:14 Is ANY sick among you? let HIM call for the elders of the church; and let THEM pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith SHALL save the sick, and the Lord SHALL raise him up; and if he hath committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Go back to Ephesians four and you will find that the PASTOR- TEACHERS as the ONLY preachers of the flock without pay were GIVEN GIFTS to set the church in order. They laid their hands on Timothy in connection with Paul and gave him supernatural prophesying or TEACHING the Word ability.
Now the word SHALL is the Greek MELLO and it means "USED OF PURPOSE, CERTAINTY, COMPULSION OR NECESSITY."
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they SHALL recover.
When a Pastor- Teacher or Pastor- Prophet with gifts asked God to heal someone they have the AUTHORITY to work miracles. There is no doubt: no one can go away and say (as we always do) "the diagnosis was wrong, she went into remission--happens often--or some other COP- OUT."
If someone COMES FORWARD violating James DIRECT COMMAND to pray in SECRET then James PROMISES NOTHING. However, if someone calls for a MIRACLE WORKING elder to restore sight then James says: THE EYE SOCKED SHALL BE FILLED." Or if Kregg Hood keeps bringing the guys into VOODOO (the source of your praise singing to ASSIST God and replace Jesus as mediator) then his African preacher friend can show you how to raise the dead to ZOMBIE status. Kregg, they feed them a mixture of PUFFER FISH and they just LOOK dead: fools love to be fooled.
The great lapse of MIRACLE WORKERS is to make it easy to identify the END TIME miracle workers working real miracles as proof that they are agents of Apollo, the father of "musical harmony, twanging bow strings, thieves and liars." He is Apollyon or Abaddon or Satan.
-----Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet
-----Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working MIRACLES, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
-----Revelation 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
See Adam Clark and some of my collected FROG SPIRITS (religious QUACKS) used by SATAN or LUCIFER (ZOE) as MUSICAL ENCHANTERS:
http://www.piney.com/SerpClarkGen3.html
NEXT: Public confession is part of the SHEPHARDING cult. As James ABSOLUTELY INSISTS that the PSALMING be in private and the PRAYING AND unquestioned healing be in private to keep the glory out of the hands of the WORSHIP TEAM, James goes on (for the readers only) to say to those WITHOUT supernatural healing power:
James 5:16 Confess your faults ONE to ANOTHER, and pray ONE for ANOTHER, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
That means that if Jiffy Quick offends Sister Singer then Jiffy Quick should confess to SISTER SINGER and pray about it.
James 5:17 Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.
James 5:18 And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.
Elias, like the earliest elders, had supernatural powers bestowed on him.
The PRAISE TEAM recrucifying Lord Jesus Christ ignores that THAT ROLE was played by JUDAS whose JUDAS BAG was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments.
Jesus made all of us as ONE ANOTHER into priests who can come into the HOLY PLACE or church or body of Christ where not even the VILEST musical levite would have been so ignorant to trample.
Jesus selected and gifted CERTAIN MEN including elders to perform SIGNS of the validity of Jesus Christ. You DO NOT have any such gifted men or they would be CALLED to the hospital bed, HEAL the person with absolute certain and they would be rewarded PUBLICALLY. When they shotgun EVERY trouble (gotta pain in my side) they will ASSUREDLY get a few who get well and they can, like the tithing people, CLAIM them to VALIDATE their own turning James UPSIDE DOWN to PERVERT his every statement.
A MIRACLE is a supernatural SIGN or mighty work to PROVE that the miracle worker is a DESIGNATED SPOKESMAN from Christ. Some elder will smack some lady in the head and she will fall down and get up with a new leg. However, God ANSWERS prayers from the CLOSET but these are NOT SIGNS because they can be explained in some natural way.
Now, if they can get Kregg and his African preacher with some puffer fish poison they can create a ZOMBIE to go along with the living zombies created by singing UNSCRIPTURAL "praise songs" to even Heal Jesus or replace him with Praise Teams. I am waiting for a MOURNING TEAM or a LEARNING TEAM. The Lord Jesus Christ says "Woe" as He cast out the musical mourning or praise team "more or less violently." John Chrysostom wrote:
"And when He came into the ruler's house, and saw the MINSTRELS and the people making a NOISE, He saith unto them, Give place, for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed Him to scorn." [ Matt. ix. 23, 24. [R. V., "the flute-players, and the crowds making a tumult."]
----"Noble tokens, surely, these, of the rulers of synagogues; in the moment of her death pipes and cymbals raising a dirge! What then doth Christ?
"All the rest He cast out, but the parents He brought in; to leave no room for saying that He healed her in any other way.
----"Seeing then the cymbals and the multitude, He put them all out, and in the presence of the parents works the miracle; not introducing another soul, but recalling the same that had gone out, and awakening her as it were out of a sleep."
If Jesus hadn't VIOLENTLY CAST out the musical ministrels (gay troubadours in the Hebrew) then based on all of the Bible SATAN would get the glory for healing the girl with MUSIC.
If you CALL THEM TO THE ALTAR CALL with music you are the perverted and apostasized church the Restoration Movement spat out of their mouths and Lord Jesus Christ HAS cast you out in a spiritual sense and even if Jezebel set up a Synagogue of Satan you would never get into the Holy Place (her synagogue) but would TRAMPLE THE COURTS OF THE GENTILES.
The MARK is absolute: It is SATAN'S way to call out a people for HIS KINGDOM as he uses little Judases to try to TRIUMPH OVER JESUS with the Warrior Levites who typically SLAUGHTERED God's LAMB tens of thousands of time but JESUS CAST THEM OUT VIOLENTLY because the "god" of the musical Jews was BACCHUS who Piped hoping to get Jesus into the PERVERTED song and dance of the god of the NEW WINESKINS.
Ken Sublett
(no login) 207.190.67.96
Re: Tithing Kisner
November 19 2002, 3:54 PM
As usual, Mr. Sublett, you have taken everything I said out of context. Elsewhere on this site, I have apologized for speaking out of anger. I made one post in complete haste and without forethought. However, in this post, I have had 18 years to think about it, and what I have to say to you is a culmination of those 18 years, and if you, Mr. Sublett, wish to take it as my own vitriolic anger being vehemently unleashed on you, then so be it! There are times when anger is justified.
How dare you castigate the faith of another christian, a person for whom Jesus Christ shed his blood. Your post today should prove to anyone on this site that you are not out for a "thus saith the Lord!" Rather you are out to prove your own twisted distortions of His Holy Word. In some way, you have come to the conclusion that YOU are the only one capable of understanding the Word of God. It makes no difference what anyone says, or how anyone approaches an issue, you always have some kind of absurd argument based in an amalgamation of scripture, philosophy, and your own preconceived notions to levy against him/her. My guess is that if Jesus Christ himself were to post on this site, that you would argue with him as well. I have met many learned people in the churches of Christ. I've had the privelege of knowing men like Batsell B. Baxter, Garland Elkins, Tom Warren, who, incidentally would be considered the most conservative among the churches. Likewise I have talked with Rubel Shelley, Max Lucado, and others who are more progressive. Do you know, I could fellowship any of these men as brothers in the Lord, because they are true students of the word. But, do you know, that among even the most conservative of people that I have known, I don't believe there is one that would follow your line of reasoning. I guess that no one else in the churches of Christ has had the deep knowledge that you have concerning all of these matters.
In all of my years in the church of Christ and through all of the turmoil that I have seen, I have never met a person who is as calloused as you. How dare you ever accuse me of bragging about my mother's healing (though you didn't accuse me personally, it is implicit in your post, i.e. your reference to "someone's mother" going "into remission" and this being flaunted "as a miracle."). My mother DID NOT go into remission, said word being defined as a temporary disappearance of symptoms of a disease. Listen closely, she does not have cancer. Her body is completely free of the disease. I suppose if I had said that this was an answer to prayer, that you probably would have still said that I was bragging.
You, Mr. Sublett, have crossed the line. But I suppose you have gotten what you wanted, because I am angry! Your language in this post indicates that you have absolutely no regard for anyone's feelings. You are everything you accuse many others of being (i.e. mean-spirited, divisive, etc.). You even call into question the power of God, crediting his work to evil entities. And, you know, I think that's what the Bible calls blasphemy against the Holy Spirit! As you champion your cause, whatever that cause is, you should be very careful lest in winning the battle over the issues you defend, you lose your own soul because of the wreckless, uncaring, unChristian manner in which you do it.
And, by the way, the name is James, J-A-M-E-S, not Jimmy! I should hope you would have the decency to use my preferred name, or to refer to me as Mr. Kisner, rather than to resort to your blatant sarcastic use of "Jimmy" in future posts. You are not cute at all when you do that.
James Kisner
(no login) 63.84.81.111
Re: Tithing Kisner
November 19 2002, 11:43 PM
YOU were talking about OBEYING James so how could I be speaking of YOU.
THEY are speaking about a public ALTAR CALL. See the difference?
I quoted James to speak of PRIVATE prayer: you have jumped the logical fence.
JESUS healed one known to be blind from birth: that is defined by all scholars as a MIRACLE to prove the Divinity of Jesus. No one could QUESTION that it was a miracle.
Words have to have some meaning: miracle, mighty sign, answered prayer, providence, etc.
YOUR mother was healed by prayer. It was NOT to validate the SUPERNATURAL power of the HEALERS. I prayed and two WHITE ELIPHANT pieces of property closed within one hour of each other 90 miles apart when neither one was SALEABLE. But that does not prove my DIVINITY or AGENCY of God. And I can still say: "Maybe just accidental."
You admit that I wasn't talking about your mother or my mother but JAMES and MADISON. Therefore, you have gagged when I told you on another forum about Musical worship teams, women "preside over elders with a tune," Instrumental Music, Observing Christimas (Santa is Santanel or Satan who gets the credit for all perfect gifts) and Easter or Ishtar the holy whore of Babylon who is ZOE in Gnosticism and probably where you perform. You GLOATED:
-----"I am now a Minister of Worship in a Church of Christ in Wisconsin. Yes, we are a progressive Church of Christ. Yes, we use instruments in worship. Yes we lift our hands in worship. Some of us shout, some say Amen, some clap. And, we have women on our praise team. We have Christmas Eve and Easter worship services, and we even serve communion at those services, whether they are on a Sunday or Tuesday."
You are as PROGRESSIVE as the garden of Eden where the musical enchanter WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve and Adam went willingly. Or you are as PROGRESSIVE as the towers of Babylon which ALSO had its priests, soothsayers, musicians and prostitutes.
YOU ARE NOT A WORSHIP MINISTER! Worship is in the poor victims SPIRIT or mind as it gives heed to the Word of God: you are the WORSHIP DESTROYER. Music is an ANTI-Biblical term. I really don't care what most people do with that one hour a week in which NO ONE CAN worship in their mind or spirit. However, when you boast of FLAUNTING the 2,000 Biblical correctness of the church on music then you are telling the world like all Biblicl music: "WE just don't care about the Word of God and therefore you CANNOT care about the God who spoke it and inspired it."
Flaunters of even the Authority of God may still have some unresolved conflicts with parents or someone? I checked with wife and three daughters: none were ever immature or "feminine" enough to sing and clap.
Jubal who HANDLED musical instruments meaning "WITHOUT AUTHORITY" is featured in a dozen or more ancient documents as the BABYLONIAN agent of Satan who taught the musical worship ministers with mixed-sex choirs, instrumental music and sexual perversion to SILENCE the Word of God. Music is anti-christian. The non-silent meaning of "non-sedentary" women violates the direct commands of Paul. The word authorityis AUTHENTIA which is ALWAYS sexual authority when women STAND OVER the flock. Authentia meant "both erotic and murderous." That is what you are doing to FLAUNT.
Hand clapping in most worlds was a show of contempt and keeping of pagan days is a direct violation of the Word and intends to keep the people's EYES AND EARS off Jesus.
You violate the key meaning of the Church of Christ which has been faithful for 2,000 years. There is not a shred of information in favor of either music or instruments and the Bible and all of history associates it with trying to seduce the gods into a "knowing" relationship. Like the musical idolaters at Mount Sinai the persona you project DOES NOT make the people laugh and clap WITH you but AT you. God said that they made themselves into a LAUGHINGSTOCK. God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST (Acts 7) which included Rubel Shelly's S.U.N. god to replace the S.O.N. God. They worshiped Chiun with music in Amos 5 and 6 where Chiun is Saturn whose number is 666. I assure you: Music IS the MARK of the beast (Zoe, the beast and the female instructing principle).
The TARGET of the owners of this sight was REPUDIATING the PERSONAE of musical performers which has always been questionable by ALL OF HISTORY and is not a CHRISTIAN persona--especially in CCM. That is why mature males will always gag and flee. Satan as the NACHASH or serpent was a musical enchanter, is specifically named throughout the Bible with Babylon or TYRE the "harp-playing prostitute" and always told God: "We will not listen to YOUR words." That is defacto proven when you sing silly and erotic PRAISE SONGS which claps in the face of the Incarnate God of the universe. Lucifer(ZOE) is the end-time Babylon Whore religion and her music and musicians will again return to Hell with her (Rev. 18).
You are just trying psychologial violence on me for explaing the book of JAMES to NOT mean the charismatic ALTAR CALL when you know that you are fulfilling the TYPE in the Book of Enoch and a dozen other documents in blaming others when they fell off the holy mountain of God, down into the valley of the Cainites because of musical seduction and COULD NEVER get back up as many Old Testament passages confirm. Jesus DID and WOULD and WILL cast out the "musical minstrels" more or less violently. So blame the RIGHT and LEFT extreme of your educaton as obverse sides of the same COIN in leaving you naked of the Word of God which UNIVERSALLY CONDEMNS musical attacks and PRESIDE OVER women.
The word MIRACLE has a Biblical meaning: it is a supernatural sign of the MIRACLE WORKERS agency from God. Answered prayer assuredly happens but beware of people looking for credit. Musicians are standing in the Holy Place where no Hebrew of vile pagan would ever dare to go--looking for credit. I plead with you to do the things symbolized by the Menorah, the bread and the incense altar: no music is permitted and music DESTROYS worship in the spirit (mind) in the Most Holy Place into which you musicians CANNOT lead us.
MINISTERS are SLAVES and not self-seeking: You are the OFFENDERS, others are the OFFENDED and DISCORDED so don't try the Guilt clause just because I expose you to some Biblical and historical truth.
If the Bible has any meaning you CANNOT repent but you can quit polluting the Holy Place as church of Christ where Jesus as Spirit is our ONE and only preacher and song writer. The members never invited you to LEAD THE WORSHIPERS INTO THE PRESENCE of the "gods" and they are increasingly asking you to go find a church already into music and quit "stealing church houses of widows" and frazzling the nerves of the people: you produce a DRUG HIGH with the effects of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUAL FEELINGS.
If you think that I am mean you just get caught in a TRUMPET QUARTET when Jesus comes with a trumpet voice.
Ken Sublett
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
To: Mr. Sublett
November 20 2002, 12:18 PM
Mr. Sublett,
I rarely respond to anything you post because you talk way over my head. I do have two questions.
Were you present at the Madison Church of Christ on Sunday, Nov. 17, 2002?
If the answer is no, then how can you have an opinion as to what happened?
(no login) 63.84.81.66
To: Mr. Sublett
November 20 2002, 4:25 PM
No, I wasn't and I wasn't addressing what I don't know about.
The report was posted, James boasts about flaunting the violation of the OLD church of Christ in favor of being PROGRESSIVE. You may want to read the kinder and gentler handlers of perverters of the Word of God on Richland Hills post where he castigates godly men for daring to post their opinion to question "God's Celestial Beings" as one Madisoner chided me.
James responded consistent with his boasting about replacing the Olden Bible:
His first response WAS:
ME and MY personal experiences. That was a testimony to justify WHATEVER is being done. While we can all talk about ourselves, that has absolutely no value in defining the Scriptures. Your MENTOR Kregg Hood looks forward to seeing the dead raised and you DEFEND his absolute perversion of the TITHE which was to support the Levites to help lead Israel into captivity to the beat of music. Therefore, you might inform us whether you have a HEALING MINISTRY as some of your sister churches?
Second, he used James 5 to defend PRIVATE healing apparently to justify PUBLIC HEALING. He seemed to dare anyone to refute James.
I took the occasion to say what is obvious: this has nothing to do with a CHURCH RITUAL. I know of no Biblical or historical evidence of HEALING as part of the DIVERT from the purpose of church as SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. If the Bible does not defend it and history does not defend it but rather rebukes it then WHY brag about doing something NEW and possibly disturbing when almost any PROGRESSIVE ritual destroys people's ability to worship IN THEIR SPIRIT which is well above the belt line? Other than empowered PASTOR-TEACHERS and others, as PRIESTS OF GOD each of us has as much AUTHORITY as any elder or female HEALING MINISTRY.
And I couldn't resist telling James that in the important APPROVED EXAMPLE of Jesus involving the MUSICAL MINISTERS Jesus "cast them out more or less violently." I don't know why you cannot read my quotation of the Bible to get the point and just skip past the added abuse of THEATRICAL PERFORMERS standing in the Holy Place. They abuse Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, the congregation, SOW DISCORD, offend many of these little ones and present themselves as that WHICH WE PAY ATTENTION TO and therefore what and whom we worship.
When you induce a DRUG HIGH to bring on the joy and tears you SEDUCE people into trivializing their woes. That is not REMOTELY church of Christ nor is it remotely Christian. How can I judge? Well, people don't hesitate to LIE, LIE, LIE to cheat people out of their hard-gained livelyhood even with the criminal "Law of Giving." I accept the invitation to lay out some LOST SCRIPTURE for the few interested ones.
Jesus Christ died to GIVE US REST and PAY ALL OF THE BILLS EXCEPT LOVE. The BURDEN He died to destroy was by doctors of the Law "creating spiritual anxiety through religious ritual." I DARE to suggest that these programs, rituals and DISCORDING "new magic" is to so DISSOCIATE people that they will move on to something PROGRESSIVE as boasted about by James restoring beginning-time and end-time musical rituals taught by Satan to the youth.
Whatever happend UP THERE one does not have to hallucinate: just read the "worship" dePrograms from the Jubilee group's most destructive SOWING OF DISCORD in our history. Then if James wants to hitch hike a HEALING MINISTRY to try to SHUT THE MOUTHS of those still on the music "hobby" as he tried to shut the mouth of a thesis signer then WE who are awake and have our clothes with us will tell him, over and over and over and over that THEATRICAL PERFORMANCE is the MARK of the end-time pseudo-worship (Rev 18 fulfilling lots of prophecies).
I am truly struggling and praying about how to tell you how all early history and older Jewish Scholars translate the episode where Paul makes it clear that Satan upset Eve's virginity. Jesus identified the seed of Satan and John says that "Cain, who was of that wicked one" killed his brother because HIS WORSHIP was evil. "Cain" is from a musical note and Jubal (rimes with------), his descendant, means to "blow his own trumpet" was the FATHER of those who HANDLED musical instruments "Without authority." They, too, figured out how to herd people into temple-states, take away their liberty and their TITHE. ALL history associates musical instruments with this "family" of the wrong god or to DEMONS.
So far I have posted 36 ancient documents which all see music from Satan to divert people's mind from the Living Word. Some of them define the ZOE MOVEMENT feminist superiors to the "minor jehovah" and "little dumb logos or Jesus." Too bad you guys are singers and clappers instead of DISCIPLES of the MASCULINE Father and Son proven by the Dove on Jesus' head.
Ken Sublett
Jeff Day (no login) 63.156.232.182
You have no shame
November 20 2002, 7:00 PM
Mr. Sublett. By your last 2 posts, you have shown all who post and read these messages that you have no shame. It is a sad thing, but indeed true. You cannot admit when you are wrong to chide a fellow brother, and you insist on turning an discussion of healing into your favorite topic of musicalness and how it relates to sexual innuendos.
Your ramblings are really sad. You claim that you have posted or refered to 36 historical writings that prove that music is from Satan and that it diverts people's minds......are ANY of these "ancient writings" a part of the Word? I think not. Your whole argument is based on "other" writings. Maybe you should read the Bible more and stick to that when you argue your point...oh, and stick to the issue. You claim that some people use music to divert, my brother, if that is true, you do the same thing with words. Talk straight and to the point. Don't ramble so much, you really don't make sense. How do you expect to "win us over" if you cannot speak plain english and muddy the water with a diversion of words and topics? Won't happen.
I believe what is being missed here is that there is a difference between what should be termed God's providential care and what should be termed a miracle as defined by Scripture.
My wife has breast cancer and is about to start chemo. Test results that we received today show that there is no spread of the cancer from the lump in her breast. Last night, Elders from our church prayed for a good report. I do believe in the power of prayer and that prayers for our behalf have been answered. This confirms for us that God is in control, but I do not call it a miracle.
Miracles were performed in the New Testament so that we may believe:
Jhn 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus
in the presence of his disciples,
which are not written in this book:
Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might
believe that Jesus is the Christ, the
Son of God; and that believing ye
might have life through his name.
The miracles performed in the New Testament could not be explained by natural laws. They could not be mistaken as anything else but a miracle from God. They were used to prove His nature or to reveal a new truth. No new truth can be revealed today. We have his complete and perfect Word.
God still works in our lives today -- guiding us, caring for us and comforting us. This is his providential care.
Prayerfully Onward,
Kevin
Jeff Day (no login) 68.15.240.172
Splitting Hairs....
November 22 2002, 4:10 PM
Kevin. What are you doing????? You are splitting hairs because you don't like the word "miracle". And, you are limiting God as far as when and how HE works. That is surely a sad way to look at things. I prefer to think that He loves us so much and wants to be involved in our lives daily. I think that there are NO coincidences. I think that God works in our lives every minute of every day, influencing us to do HIS will here on earth. However, sometime we listen and sometimes we don't.
It is truely sad to me to think of living my life thinking that God was not involved with me intimately. It would be sad if He were not walking with me and speaking to me (not out loud yet) helping me with choices that I have to make.
What a sad, sad view of GOd.
This I know: that you are misssing out on an incredible blessing if you are not aware of Father's miraculous presence in your life. Every Day is a miracle and I am thankfull to be a child on His knee everyday.
G&P
Jeff
Dennis (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Splitting Hairs....
November 22 2002, 5:54 PM
Jeff, I appreciate your post. It is good to see some encouraging thoughts on this site ti hide and cover up all the negative from people like Joe McKnight, Donnie, Ken and Kevin. Thanks
I didn't mean to make you sad, Jeff. I'm not sad, why should you be? I just happen to be one of those people that believes the Bible.
Prayerfully Onward,
Kevin
Jeff Day (no login) 68.15.240.172
Splitting More Hairs
November 22 2002, 6:35 PM
Kevin. I am so happy now. And it's you who have done that. WOW! I am so glad that you believe the bible. I had you pegged all wrong. Then you do believe that God's Spirit inhabits us now and that he does work miracles today. That's GREAT!
And all the time here I thought you were a know-it-all, judgemental person who couldn't wait to "share" his interpretation of the scriptures with those that "just don't have it all right".
I am so pleased to hear that you believe the Bible.
G&P
Jeff
===================================
Message From The Moderator
Jeff, you have been previously warned. All future post from you will be deleted.
Thanks
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.123 on Nov 22, 2002 6:51 PM
Jeff Day (no login) 207.50.55.201
You Should Be ASHAMED!!!!!
November 19 2002, 9:43 PM
Kenneth, How DARE you judge James and his mother and what God did for her. You proclaim yourself in your "writings" as being an expert. You may not say so specifically, but your demeanor says it ALL. I have been the brunt of your ramblings before, but you have taken it TOO FAR this time. You have blasphemed the Father Himself, by proclaiming His healing work as "mistaken identity".
Read James 5. ITS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR NOSE!!! Or are you just a contrarian that thinks "he knows it all"? NONE of us know it all. Like James K, I think you would argue with Jesus if He was here....and I think He is. WATCH OUT!!
Jeff
Amelia (no login) 68.53.141.176
Re: You should be ASHAMED
November 20 2002, 2:46 PM
I probably don't need to tell you, but Mr. Sublett apparently feels no shame for anything. Someone (Mr Hamm?) cited the fable of The Emperor's New Clothes in a post on this thread. Mr. Sublett's ramblings are a clear example of that fable acted out. He posts paragraph after paragraph and it all boils down to rearranging words and sentences he has posted many times in many ways to all say the same thing: "I am a superior intellect who understands God and you don't." He will throw in silly, outdated phrases like "barking at truck tires." He will connect everything to sex. He is fixated on Carol Wimber (who I had never heard of until he brought up her name and still have no interest in what she says or what she does, as I would imagine most of you are in the same position).
I saw a movie recently called "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." A running joke in the movie was how the Greek patriarch would take any word you could name and show you how its origins were Greek and give you the Greek meaning (which rarely, if ever, actually meant what the word he was comparing it to did mean). That part of that movie reminded me of Mr. Sublett's posts. He is counting on the average reader not to know Greek and/or Hebrew or to be familiar with the outside sources he cites. Someone did call his bluff one time, but that thread quickly disappeared.
One other point, the only person to allude to a part of the service at Madison last Sunday as a "healing service" was Donnie Cruz. It was not, in fact, anything but an invitation to the congregation to pray or request prayers for specifice needs, in this case physical healing for those who are sick. Now, who is attempting to be deceptive?
(no login) 63.84.81.66
Ashamed of those ashamed of the Word
November 20 2002, 7:24 PM
"Ashamed" of Christ is to REPLACE Him standing in the Holy Place and making church into a pagan ritualized LIST to keep people's minds off Christ. That was PORN in the garden (I'm getting up nerve to tell you), before the flood, after the flood, at the Red Sea and EVERY musical episode in the Bible.
I may be mistaken about the person but Am, you have never heard this one before.
Lady asked little Johny Wesley's mother: "Why do you tell little Johnny NOT to do something 20 times"? Mother: "Because he hadn't learned the 19th time." Like that?
I thought you were lost at sea: I love the name. (That's my NICE for the day.)
When I quote a GREEK word I know as much as any Phd with my little dictionary. The DEFINITION is a list of ways in which a Greek or Hebrew word is TRANSLATED in the Bible. Now if the word Chalal means "to play the flute, pollute or prostitue" then YOU are under the burden of finding a place where PLAYING THE FLUTE is not acribed to the polluters or prostitutes.
I kinda like youse guys: if you need a proof text you just look in the mirror. Now, I am absolutely positive that you have NEVER read about the Emperor's clothes but you probably watch lots of them PERFORMING IN THE HOLY PLACE. Are you a clapper? Well, SOMEONE has to tell you SOMETHING each week without LYING AND DYING with you, so here it is Am,
http://www.piney.com/EmperorsClothes.html
Am, have you heard of the HOLY WHORE who began competing with God even in heaven with music? Well, Carol teaches and your guys PRACTICE the art of sexual stimulation to bring you into the presence of the God. Oops! "Sometimes the WRONG spirit steals in when you are looking for lust in all of the wrong places."
Next, Pastor Pyle wrote some good stuff to open your eyes to see how the CLERGY USE AND ABUSE you to help THEM prop up the sky so God doesn't fail and the TRUMPETS CLANG.
Am, did you know that the COLLECTION PLATES in the temple yard were called TRUMPETS because they were. You know, kinda like spitoons to keep the widow's mite quiet and the RICH man "sound the trumpet." But, Jesus cast the COLLECTION PLATES out along with the musical soothsayers. Take a look at the first article and then click on to see yourself as others see you:
http://www.piney.com/sky1.html
Am, I gotta better deal: along with all of the porn I receive each day I also get REPEATS of a widow in Nigeria. She has 25 million dollars and she wants me to have most of it just to get it out of Nigeria. I can give you her e-mail and her SCAM sounds more honest.
Just call me K-e-n-n-y and you won't even pull my pigtail.
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
To: MISTER SUBLETT
November 21 2002, 12:23 AM
Whew!!! Did you forget your medication this morning?
Jeff Day (no login) 68.15.240.172
Wha??????
November 22 2002, 4:01 PM
You made absolutely NO sense in your last post. Spitoons and Widows mites???? Wha?????? Maybe you could start over and try again. Talk plain english for all of us dummies out here.
I think without exception you manage to bring every discussion back to music and sex, music and sex. It all becomes blurry and no one wants to hear it anymore, or read it.
You border on loosing everyone but Donnie and....who is it.....oh that other guy from the Hillcrest forum. No one ever posts on his site so he comes over hear to cause trouble.
Now you're making ME sad. Here I thought you really, really, really wanted me to be happy and to experience the joy that you experience because you know God better than I do and you go and ruin it.
Math 7:20 "by their fruits ye shall know them."
Thanks, Jeff.
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services (by James Kisner)
November 19 2002, 2:16 PM
James,
Thank you for this truly miraculous testimony. I do not know any scriptures to justify or prohibit a “Healing” service nor have I ever had the opportunity to really think about it. I tend to believe that would be an option for the members of the church but I don’t believe it should be called a “Healing” service. I do not believe in the power of MEN to “Heal”. Only God. The “Worship Service” is for showing our gratitude to God for blessing us by Worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.
I don’t know how it is done at your church but at my church there are people who come forward at the invitation for a variety of reasons for the prayers of the Elders and/or the Church. This invitation does not pertain only to salvation. It is for ANY need that a Christian may have in his or her life.
About 20 years ago, I had a horrific automobile accident incurring extensive internal injuries and a major head injury. I still do not remember the accident and only bits and pieces of my three-week hospital stay. If I remember correctly, about a week and a half of this was spent in Intensive Care. Doctors were not sure what was going to happen and were giving a 50/50 chance of me coming out of my coma because of my head injury. The persistent prayers of the Madison Church of Christ as well as other Churches in the area, I believe, were major benefactors in my recovery. However, I believe that God ultimately made it happen.
That may not sound as miraculous as what your family experienced but the point is that God Makes Miracles Happen, not men. Physical, earthly, human practices may indeed increase the depth of ones “physical” awareness of comfort, love and even Spirituality. However, when you begin counting on, and influencing others in, such worldly things, performed by men AS an act from God on earth are you not discounting Spirituality and reducing it to something less than it should be?
Jesus PERSONALLY gave some men powers to do amazing things through their earthly, physical bodies. This “WAS” only in New Testament times. I do not believe that to be rubbish.
In Sincerity and Humility,
Larry.
(no login) 207.190.67.96
Re: Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services (by James Kisner)
November 19 2002, 4:03 PM
Thanks for your kindness. I don't believe that men have the power to heal either. Religious television is full of hucksters that claim that. At the same time, I do believe what James 5:13 teaches to be applicable to us today. And, it is the PRAYER offered in FAITH that makes the sick person well. I just simply believe that we do what James 5 says for the same reason that we do what any other scripture says - out of obedient faith. And, yes, I do believe God healed you as well, and I am glad he did.
It might be appropriate to add here that my Dad died in 1992 from cancer. We did basically the same things with him as we did with Mom, but God chose not to heal him. I don't know why, and I don't think I ever questioned why God allowed him to die, but I will say that if I ever get sick, the first thing I will do (publicly or privately, depending on the situation) is call for my elders to lay hands on me, anoint me, and PRAY. That's what the Bible says to do, and I will stand on that premise until the day I die.
God bless you and thanks for being a little more understanding than some others have been.
Sincerely,
James Kisner
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: Re: Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services (by James Kisner
November 21 2002, 12:16 PM
You’re welcome. The verse in James 5:13 is definitely applicable. I believe the verse that more closely resembles our discussion is James 5:14 and while things like the “laying on of hands” and “anointing with oil” may be applicable, it is “not necessary”. These things may give a human person a physical sense of comfort, love and the presence of people who care about them but IT IS ALL ABOUT PRAYER. When such physical, human things are practiced, especially in the presence of others as an evangelistic tool, it paints a picture that makes it look like this is somehow more powerful; thus making the power of prayer and spirituality alone seem less powerful without some external, worldly means to give it strength.
I like to try to put things in a nutshell and reduce statements to the most common denominator. I have read some, not all of Mr. Sublett’s statements and articles and while he does go into extreme detail, I believe his messages are for the purpose of making people understand the theology of the Church of Christ. He obviously knows a great deal about the Bible, Bible History, and World History and is very well read. He made a particular remark in one of his responses to you that really stuck with me. He said, “Christianity is based on Faith and not on Sight”. I firmly believe this one! Seeing is a Physical, Human sense and I would also add the others; Hearing, touch, taste or smell.
I am very sorry about your Father. I believe, as I’m sure you do, that God has a plan and that everything that happens is for his purpose and that end purpose is better than it would have been if things always worked out the way we wanted.
Humbly and Sincerely,
Larry
Amelia (no login) 68.53.141.176
Dialogue between L. Bennett & J. Kisner
November 21 2002, 1:42 PM
The last several posts between the two of you have served as good examples for all. When Biblical matters are discussed in a loving, courteous way, concisely and without embellishment we can all learn and be given thoughts to ponder that lead to further study of God's word!
Lawrence, you chided me for "nit-picking" on the subject of your baptism. Perhaps I did, and I apologize if that was yours or anyone's perception. But, I was thinking of people who come to this site, having NO frame of reference about the church of Christ other than what they read here. Think about the messages they are getting. I honestly know of someone who was using the Internet to find out service times for a church of Christ in the middle Tennessee area (they had just moved here). After hitting this site on their search engine, they concluded that a church of Christ was the last place they wanted to be in middle Tennessee. Can you blame them?
If more dialogue like that of yours and James Kisner's takes place, that perception could change. Let us all pray for wisdom and understanding, even if we don't (and we won't) all agree on every little detail.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Psalm 19
Thanks for the example of Christ-like behavior that reminded me of that favorite scripture above. I am going to ponder it and try to put it into practice much more.
(no login) 207.190.64.146
Re: Dialogue between L. Bennett & J. Kisner
November 21 2002, 11:37 PM
Thanks, Amelia, for your kindness and encouragement. All of us on all sides of these issues should take what you have said to heart. It is very easy to get caught up in the emotion of things and lose sight of the ultimate goal in study and discussion of biblical passages and doctrines - the quest for truth. I truly believe that most of the folks who post on this site are honest in their pursuit of God and His word. Whether we all agree with them on every issue or not is not the most important thing. Of utmost importance is that when we form an opinion that it be based in scripture and not on emotion. No one of us has a corner on truth, and our understanding of the absolute truth of the Bible will change from time to time as we grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus.
May we all continually pray that God will continue to increase our understanding of his Word. Most importantly, may God help us all to do all that we can to maintain the "unity of the Spirit through the bonds of peace." Though it is not in the Bible, and certainly not inspired by God, one of the slogans of our great restoration movement is "In matters of Faith, unity, In matters of opinion, liberty, and in all things, love." That seems like a good, common sense approach to the dilemmas that honest, God-fearing Christians find themselves in from time to time.
Again, thanks for your encouragement.
God bless,
James Kisner
(no login) 63.84.81.126
TITHING NT Christians
November 18 2002, 6:50 PM
I have quoted Carol Wimber upon whose back ALL musical worship teams are riding to say that the 4th act of worship is PRAISE SINGING to produce a climactic relationship with God. Predictably, the FOURTH ACT is "giving of substance." PRAISE SINGING has no other motive than to steal the word of God and get out the check book. But there is a certain joy in this: it validates all of the Bible which from beginning to end associates MUSIC with the HARLOT'S COMMERCIAL VENTURES.
"THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION" but that the use of MUSIC in religion was taught by SATAN to steal the WORSHIP form God. Jesus said that the leaders of His time were sons of the Devil and liars. They were LIARS because they spoke their own words. Paul's DIRECT COMMAND was to TEACH the word rather than DO MUSIC or praise singing to HELP God prop up the world or "SEE GODLINESS AS A MEANS OF FINANCIAL GAIN."
--NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of DEVILS; 1Ti.4:1
---Speaking LIES in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 1 Tim 4:2
------For the LOVE of money is the ROOT of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and PIERCED themselves through with many sorrows. 1Ti.6:10
THE BOOK OF ENOCH quoted often in the NT is accepted as the TRUTH about how SATAN came into the young people and taught them how to steal the worship FROM GOD by using mixed-sex choirs, instrumental music, physical adornment and most importantly in all pagan religions: perverted sexuality stimulated by music which ONLY creates the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUALITY. Here are a few quotes from Enoch:
=================================================
The spirits of you who die in righteousness shall exist and rejoice. Their spirits shall exult; and their remembrance shall be before the face of the Mighty One from generation to generation. Nor shall they now fear disgrace. Enoch 103:3
Woe to you, sinners, when you die in your sins; and they, who are like you, say respecting you, Blessed are these sinners. They have lived out their whole period; and now they DIE in HAPPINESS and in wealth. Distress and slaughter they knew not while alive; in HONOR they die; nor ever in their lifetime did judgment overtake them. Enoch 103: 4
See Job 21 how this implicates singing, instruments and dancing and telling God as does ALL PRAISE SINGING: "We will not hear YOUR Words."
But has it not been shown to them, that, when to the receptacle of the dead their souls shall be made to descend, their evil DEEDS shall become their greatest TORMENT? Into darkness, into the snare, and into the flame, which shall burn to the great judgment, shall their spirits enter; and the great judgment shall take effect for ever and for ever. Enoch 103: 5
Woe to you; for to you there shall be no peace. Neither can you say to the righteous, and to the good who are alive, In the days of our trouble have we been afflicted; every manner of trouble have we seen, and many evil things have suffered. Enoch 103: 6
----
Those have EXERCISED DOMINION over us who DETEST and who goad us; and to those who hate us have we humbled our neck; but they have shown no compassion towards us. Enoch 103: 12
We have been DESIROUS of escaping from them, that we might fly away and be at rest; but we have FOUND NO PLACE to which we could fly, and be secure from them. We have sought an asylum with princes in our distress, and have cried out to those who were devouring us; but our cry has not been regarded, nor have they been disposed to hear our voice; Enoch 103: 13
But rather to assist those who PLUNDER and DEVOUR us; those who diminish us, and hide their oppression; who remove not their yoke from us, but devour, ENERVATE, and slay us (Meaning of melody); who conceal our slaughter, nor remember that they have LIFTED UP THEIR HANDS against us. Enoch 103: 14
Be not associates with them; but keep yourselves at a distance from their oppression; be you associated with the host of heaven. You, sinners, say, All our transgressions shall not be taken account of, and be recorded. But all your transgressions shall be recorded daily. Enoch 104: 5
And be assured by me, that light and darkness, day and night, behold all your transgressions. Be not impious in your thoughts; LIE NOT; surrender not the WORD of uprightness; LIE not against the WORD of the holy and the mighty One; glorify not your IDOLS; for all your LYING and all your impiety is not for righteousness, but for great CRIME. Enoch 104: 6
Now will I point out a mystery: Many sinners shall turn and transgress against the WORD of uprightness. Enoch 104: 7
They shall speak EVIL things; they shall utter FALSEHOOD; execute GREAT UNDERTAKINGS; and compose books in THEIR OWN WORDS.
====But when they shall write all MY WORDS correctly in their own languages, Enoch 104: 8
They shall neither CHANGE or DIMINISH them; but shall write them all correctly; all which from the first I have uttered concerning them. Enoch 104: 9
Another mystery also I point out. To the righteous and the wise shall be given books of JOY, of integrity, and of great WISDOM. To them shall books be given, in which they shall believe; Enoch 104: 10
"And in which they shall rejoice. And all the righteous shall be rewarded, who from these shall ACQUIRE the knowledge of every upright PATH Enoch 104: 11.
----WRITING YOUR OWN SONGS REPUDIATES JESUS CHRIST WHO SPOKE AND VALIDATED HIS WORDS WITH MIRACLES. The musical OPPRESSORS will crash by the weight of their own words.
----Enoch says that God will come with TEN THOUSAND ANGELS, but it will to bring ETERNAL PUNISHMENT upon those who rejected GOD'S WORDS and committed the UNFORGIVABLE SIN (Hebrews 6). The PRIMARY GUILT in Enoch and other accounts is using MUSIC to PERVERT the Word of God so that Satan can build his own Towers of Babel where the first MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM arose "as the HAREM of the gods." Jesus could have called them while He was being MOCKED BY MUSIC and crucified to fulfill the TYPE of the sacrificial MOCKERS. But, that comes later.
If we believe Enoch and ALL OF THE BIBLICAL "MUSICAL" PASSAGES the OPPRESSORS will NOT REPENT because they CANNOT REPENT and they are whistling through the cemetary trying to collect companions. The only hope for those who have not gone over the slippery slope is defined in a TRUE SABBATH:
"If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor SPEAKING THINE OWN WORDS: Is.58:13
Ken Sublett
Earl (no login) 166.90.104.222
Re: TITHING NT Christians
November 21 2002, 2:07 AM
Kenny Poo Sublett,
Why don't you just stop talking. It seems as if people like you, who have that ego and think they know what they are talking about are going somewhere. You make no sense whatsoever and if I were you I would either shut up or either grow up. I don't know or care how old you are, but you need to quit acting like your a little baby whining and crying for milk when you can't even give a decent defense and make any sense out of what you are talking about.
(no login) 63.84.81.34
Re: Tithing NT Christians
November 21 2002, 6:30 PM
Too bad, too sad. The Spirit of Christ spoke in parables from the foundation of the world to hide the SPIRIT OF TRUTH from the musical Cainites whose "father" was OF that wicked one. MUSIC has always been the CAUSE and MARK of those who REJECTED the Word and therefore God DELUDES them. I get my KICKS from what I believe to be DISCERNMENT (promised in 1 Peter 3:21 on Baptism) or the gift of A holy spirit (Peter in Acts 2:38).
I learn something new and exciting every day and I believe that being filled with the Spirit means filled with the Words of Christ which ARE Spirit and Life according to Jesus in John 6:63. Nothing can OVERFLOW from the mind and heart until it is FILLED: all music is "deep-fat fried southern grease balls" and what OVERFLOWS does not come out of the mouth. (Lord, I hate myself.)
That is why Paul says that if we are FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT then our songs and sermons will reflect the Mind of Christ.
Now, I was just reading some commentary on Calvin who notes that MIND ATTRACTING rituals are the product of a CLERGY who cannot abide having the Word of God in their minds. Catholics chained the Bible to the pulpit: we chain preachers. And THEY can exist only so long as YOU CANNOT grasp even simple quotations. Build your HOUSE on a solid foundation because the rains are coming.
Now, stop right there. Can you GRASP THAT? If not then why tell everyone "I'll spend a thousand bucks a sermon for someone to lie to me"? Isn't that DELUSIONAL?
NEXT, Rubel Shelly, Lynn Anderson and the RE-VISIONING movement CONFESSES to your face that YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND WORDS ANY MORE. Does that insult you? So, here is what we gonna do: we gonna FEED THE FLOCK with IMAGES and SYMBOLS. A nun writes that the WORD is masculine but IMAGES, VISIONS, SONGS AND THE ARTS are feminine or effeminate. You grasp that sound byte?
http://www.piney.com/RSReImaging.html
So what YOU are defending is the Japanese COMIC BOOK approach to try to educate those STRIPPED OF A RATIONAL MIND by the FOR HIRE hirelings.
Now, listen to Isaiah quoted by Jesus who also points to Ezekiel 33 wheree God equates the SINGERS and PLAYERS to prostitutes trying to KNOW God in a personal way: you know, "Dare to dance with God" or "I wanna God to hold me like a lover." WATCH OUT: every time God POURS OUT HIS SPIRIT, it's to MARK and someone is going to get hurt. In addition to feeding you on SYMBOLS, MUSIC AND IMAGES because you CANNOT understand prose, they also gonna get you enraptured (raped) out of a NEW WINESKIN because your SPIRIT is disfunctional after all of those sermons. The DESIRED result is to be DRUNK IN THE SPIRIT proven by the "males" singing and clapping but:
Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; CRY ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but NOT with WINE; they stagger, but not with strong drink.
Isaiah 29:10 For the Lord hath POURED out upon you the SPIRIT of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your RULERS, the seers hath he covered.
Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is SEALED, which men deliver to one that is LEARNED, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I CANNOT; for it is sealed:
Isaiah 29:10 For the Lord hath POURED out upon you the SPIRIT of deep SLEEP, and hath CLOSED your eyes: the prophets and your RULERS, the seers hath he covered.
Isaiah 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is SEALED, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I CANNOT; for it is sealed:
Isaiah 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is NOT learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people DRAW near me with their MOUTH, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the PRECEPT of MEN:
Isaiah 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall PERISH, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
When they woke up they had fishhooks in their nose and they were singing:
---"To Bab' U lon I'm on my way for the souls of men who have died."
Ken Sublett
Dennis (no login) 204.30.53.147
Re: Re: Tithing NT Christians
November 21 2002, 11:05 PM
Ol man Sublett, when are you gonna grow up and quote "Smell what the ROCK is cookin!" Not anywhere in your response do you even begin to make sense with what you are talking about. I begin to wonder if you ever confuse yourself with your constant ramblings of nonessential information that doesn't make a lick of sense. How old are you anyways? And who died and made you king? You think you and your ways are the only ones. Lemme tell you something there, you have a lot of growing up to do.
(no login) 63.84.81.114
Dennis the Meaness
November 22 2002, 11:32 AM
Just old enough, Your Meanness, and mature enough and MALE enough to sign my name.
Old enough to have had my baptism (in good faith) KICK IN so that I can listen to Jesus (the Holy Spirit) through His Word which IS Spirit and Life. That will NEVER happen if you listen to unlawful SERMONIZING (private interpretation) or making love to one another with erotic praise songs mistaking Jesus for Lucifer (ZOE).
But, Your Denseness, THAT is why you HISS when someone puts the FOOT of Jesus on your head: The SERPENT was named after the copper hooded Cobra which spat poison in your eyes and "hypnotized" like a trumpet.
Now, to be specific:
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven SPIRITS which are before his THRONE;
---The "seven spirits" represented by the Menorah as giver of light in the HOLY PLACE is where any singer or player or clapper would be executed EVEN in a carnal TYPE of the church of Christ. They are not "little people" but the SEVEN SPIRITS OF KNOWLEDGE. Isaiah 11:1-4 (that's in the olden bible).
Now, this is going to Hiss you terribly: I am gonna tell you WHO made me KING over those pledged to having their TEMPLE swept out by FALSE TEACHERS to make room for thousands of new DEMONS who are UNIVERSALLY credited with using music as worship.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the PRINCE of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and WASHED us from our sins in his own blood,
Revelation 1:6 And hath made us KINGS and PRIESTS unto God and his Father; to HIM be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
The BOOK OF THE COVENANT (I know that you haven't heard of that either) promised to make Israel a kingdom of priests (Ex 19:6). When they rose up in naked musical worship God gave them the BOOK OF THE LAW. You guys have been transported BACK under law and you will never get past the blood of Jesus again. Being again UNDER BONDAGE you have to TITHE or obey the false LAW OF GIVING in order to SET A KING OVER YOU and lead you into Babylon as captives. Now, if you had been SANGING the Spirit of Christ instead of EFFEMINATE poetry you would not have to embarrass yourself by NOT being able to COMPREHEND.
Wow, Denny, if THAT is the truff then YOU pretenders and ACCUSERS DON'T have a right to lead ME into the presence of GOD and you deserve to be chased out of town and hold a TEMPLE PURIFYING ceremony.
Here is some Plato and you had better hope that the MALES in the church don't take his advice:
"If a man, then, it seems, who was capable by his CUNNING of assuming (PANTOMIMIC Art) every kind of shape and imitating all things should arrive in our city, bringing with himself
---the poems which he wished to exhibit,
---we should fall down and WORSHIP him as a HOLY and WONDEROUS and DELIGHTFUL creature,
"but (we) should say to him that there is NO MAN of that kind among us in our city,
---nor is it lawful for such a man to arise among us,
---and we should send him away to another city,
---after pouring MYRRH down over his head and CROWING him with fillets of WOOL (taring and feathering him)
but we ourselves, for our souls' good, should continue to employ the more austere and less DELIGHTFUL poet and tale-teller,
---who would imitate the diction of the good man and would tell his tale
---"in the patterns which we prescribed in the beginning, when we set out to EDUCATE our soldiers." [That was ALSO the meaning of MUSIC for the WARRIORS but the MUSICAL WORSHIP LEADERS were NOT very manly].
For the NON-READERS here is some universal pictures of MUSICAL PERFORMERS in a religious sense:
http://www.piney.com/FathersLucian.html
Like Judas and his "case for carrying mouthpieces of wind instruments" they were MARKED by the bite of SATAN and of Catamytus I don't have the nerve to tell you where he MARKED his cupbearer.
Ken Sublett
Dennis (no login) 204.30.62.105
Re: Dennis the Meaness
November 22 2002, 3:17 PM
Ken I do not find your sarcasm at all to be funny or at all humorous. And for the record, how can you voice an opinion of the Madison Church of Christ when you don't even worship there. I have been a part of this family for almost 12 years and sure things have changed. You make me think that you don't believe that you have the freedom to worship God freely in a country where we are able to do so. Whether its with a harp or with our voices. Now don't go beating around the bush saying that I said Madison is using instruments--Cause we are not!!! I may be a recent college graduate from a Christian college and I am far from perfect and far from knowing everything. But this one thing I know for sure is that you can't judge a person for the way they worship God. We see throughout different cultures the ways that people worship Him. Get over it Ken and take your lip elsewhere. And just fyi, it's Dennis, not Denny or Dennis the Meanness. You need me to spell it out for you....D-E-N-N-I-S!!!
(no login) 63.84.81.142
Re: Dennis the Meaness
November 22 2002, 6:43 PM
Have to TEACH, TEACH, TEACH that instruments could not be used in the presence of the Pope as the presence of "Jesus Christ." They GRASPED the meaning of animal sacrifices and mocking Jesus with Warrior Levites.
Therefore, during the "Babylonian Captivity" in France, the Pope learned about commercial A Cappella. He returned them with him to Rome and set them up to PERFORM in the Sistine Chapel.
The FORM of singing is called ORGANUM or after the ORGAN. A musical worship team is a LEGALISTIC way to have a vocal band and fool the fools. Doesn't matter whether the pipes are made of pewter or vocal cords. The result of HARMONY which is not MELODY is to destroy your rational (spiritual) power to listen to the Word of God "as it has been taught" and "without private interpretation" which means FURTHER EXPOUNDING. This would TEACH that Christ did not die, did not sacrifice Himself to stop the flood of blood along with the MUSICAL WARRIOR PANIC-CREATING LEVITES under the King and the Commanders of the Army which. That's Bible 101aaa. This also stopped the TITHING for clergy or musicians to LEAD YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
D-e-n-n-i-s has "S-I-N-N-E-D" if he MOCKS those trying to teach Bible 101aa which God WILL NOT PERMIT to be either SOLD or BOUGHT.
My middle daughter BOUGHT one of those Seven-Hills educations but she has recovered. You cannot PEDDLE your body as a treasure house of knowledge of the Word of God without having God poke out your spiritual eyes and plug up your ears. THAT'S why they truly turn VIOLENT when anyone tries to GIVE AWAY the free WORD. Remember The "silversmiths"?
ALL of the deliberate FALSE TEACHING seems to be from people wearing new SHEEPSKINS where one Lipscomb "scholar" actually preached: "The duty of the shepherds is to FLEECE the flock."
Now ARROGANT would fit if I was a peddlar "seeing Godliness as a means of financial gain." GOSPEL means free good news: you can TAKE it but you cannot dilute it with "new wine" and RETAIL it.
You have BOUGHT the dry husk from an onion: If you want to get to the SWEET HEART you will have to WORSHIP in the only way possible: by GIVING HEED to God by GIVING ATTENTANCE to the reading and explaining the Word of Christ which IS SPIRIT AND LIFE.
May I call you Ken? :-) Don't pay attention to those posts that are obviously designed to incite rage (doesn't sound like the "love everyone" rhetoric that they usually spew out), they probably don't even attend a church, let alone Madison Church of Christ. They are more likely internet trolls hopping from board to board to see how much trouble they can cause.
Kevin
Dennis (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Re: Dennis, Amelia, Earl, et al
November 22 2002, 5:51 PM
Alright Kevin, or may I call you "Kev",
FYI, I attend the Madison Church of Christ and have been a part of this church for almost 13 years. You, on the other hand, have not. I know a lot more about what is happening and let me take a stab here--YOU DON'T. I don't appreciate the fact of being called a troll. You need me to define that for you like you tend to call yourself a human dictionary defining the terms change and change agent? I'll save you the humiliation on that one. Let me offer you a bit of advice. Take that mouth of yours and that computer of yours and shut up. I happen to be great friends with Amelia and Earl and they like me attend the Madison family. Lighten up or either shut up as I said before. I see who the real problem is and it isn't the ones who are striving to worship God freely as they choose at the Madison Church of Christ
==============================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
Dennis, you are warned, keep it to the scriptures or you will be banned. And if you don't know any scriptures, then you will be better off learning to read than exposing your attitude here.
Thanks
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.123 on Nov 22, 2002 6:35 PM
Dennis (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Re: Re: Dennis, Amelia, Earl, et al
November 22 2002, 6:45 PM
Speak for yourself "Mr Moderator" and quit misinterpreting scriptures!!! I don't appreciate the name calling here and I am up for it if everyone else is to reason with me on this point, To cut out this name calling and be what we are about Christians who love the Lord and don't bash others for the way that they express their love. There wasn't a single thing that I said in my post that deserved such negative response. Like I said before, grow up and quit acting like little infants crying over spoiled milk. (hint hint. Cruise, Sublett and Kevin)
============================
MESSAGE FROM THE MODERATOR
Dennis, here is something I learned from my father which you obviously failed to learn;
"Don't argue with the moderator"
Good By
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 65.80.190.123 on Nov 22, 2002 6:56 PM
"An Internet "troll" is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He (and it is usually he) tries to start arguments and upset people."
"Trolls are utterly impervious to criticism (constructive or otherwise). You cannot negotiate with them; you cannot cause them to feel shame or compassion; you cannot reason with them. They cannot be made to feel remorse. For some reason, trolls do not feel they are bound by the rules of courtesy or social responsibility."
"However, if the person persists in being beastly, and seems to enjoy being unpleasant, the only effective position is summed up as follows:
The only way to deal with trolls is to limit your reaction to reminding others not to respond to trolls.
When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored."
The full article can be read here:
http://members.aol.com/intwg/trolls.htm#WIAT
"Playtime trolls are relatively easy to spot, but they may not be apparent to the naive user. There isn't a single set of characteristics that applies to playtime trolls, but you can look for some or all of the following signs:
1. a lack of buy-in to the list philosophy or values
generally low level of activity, with sudden spurts of interaction - or perhaps a new persona that has strong opinions on controversial subjects
2. a mixture of friendly posts with a confrontational style of interaction
3. the use of provocative language and sweeping generalisations about certain topics or categories of people
4. a lack of in-depth understanding of the topic
5. a lack of personal information
6. a lack of a genuinely unique perspective on the topic
7. a lack of humour
8. restarting topics that have already been done
9. use of language that encourages the dialogue to enter topics that are controversial and likely to upset some team members
10. the use of attention-seeking gimmick (e.g.: "I was once exploited by an XYZ")
11. they follow up their own articles if the group doesn't respond to their posts
12. inconsistencies in the style and nature of the post and any proclaimed information (e.g.: claiming to be a child but writing with an adult style; claiming to be adult, but writing with a childish grammatical construction).
14. also note that trolls often seem to use free email services (such as hotmail.com) or have email addresses ending in .edu. However, trolls could be virtually anyone, and the email address is no guide as to whether the persona is a bona fide user or not.
To counteract playtime trolls, the best action is to ignore them. If you are convinced they are trolls, then you can advise the list manager. However, if other group members respond to the suspected troll's posts, then you may have to consider some of the responses outlined for tactical or strategic trolls."
The full article can be read here:
http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/troll.htm
(no login) 63.84.81.10
Definition of a real Troll
November 25 2002, 11:42 AM
The word TROLL brings up a host of beings which define the real evil forces in the world. For instance, bridge and tree spirits were agents of destructive instincts: if exposed to SUNLIGHT they burst or turn to stone. This is generic background and is not addressed to anyone but I will roll yarrow between my palms next time the guys are out there trolling for suckers in the Holy Place.
In the garden of Eden there were TWO TREES: one tree represented Life and the other "tree" represented worldly knowledge. Ezekiel 31 identifies the Assyrians as the "tallest tree in Eden." When Eve "ate of the tree" she was initiated into this KNOWING or sexual mystery. Therefore, many continued to believe that the tree spirits of Lucifer were TROLLS. And her Babylonian form was worshiped in places.
The wizards of the north countries practiced a cult of angels worshiping Inanna the goddes of war and prostitutes. The real Oimpires claimed to be Cainites and descendants of Cain. They were associated with the wizardry and with the FAE people whom the wizardry served. This sect actually brought MOTHER GODDESS WORSHIP and FAE priests who could make souls FLY into Catholicism.
They continued to worship Inanna as basis for the Catholic Trinity and substituted the worship of Mary. The Mary of Catholicism was borrowed from Babylon's Inanna or Lucifer who is senior to Jesus or the Logos. Lucifer (ZOE) was the original tree spirit. In the story of the THE HULUPPU TREE the serpent set up his nest and could not be charmed.
"Inanna's association with Venus (Lucifer), the Morning Star is the source of Her hermaphroditic sex change. In Gnosticism at the time of Justin Martyr She copulates with the Father, Elohim, and together they bring about twelve patriarchal angels for Elohim and twelve matriarchal angels for Lucifer-Eden." This is the meaning of modern Sophia-Zoe effort to emasculate the church where "musical worship teams" restores the ORIGINAL forced worship of the FEMININE by putting them in the "Holy Place."
Inanna has her own MINISTERS AND PASTORS: Her angels are listed as Babel (identified later as Ishtar-Aphrodite), Achamoth, Naas (the Tree of Gnosis, and a very male and evil being), Bel, Belias, Satan (Samael), Sael, Adonaios, Kauithan, Pharaoth, Karkamenos, and Lathen. They are all very evil and a source of suffering for humanity. Ishtar or Inanna is specificially good at music, sexual perversion and SOWING DISCORD among once- peaceful brethren.
Lucifer tries to GUIDE us but the sin of Pride is a stumbling block on the path of the artist, this includes those who practice the art of magick such as FAITH HEALING. The Asherah pole or PILLAR brought into popularity by Jubilee is a phallic symbol of Lucifer-Asherah and it is a symbol for a TREE or grove of trees as a place for the later TROLLS to live. The tree was corrupted and became Asherah. It was the Phallus image of Isaiah 57:8, and the "image of the male", Ezekiel 16:17.
"Sex is the true God of Hosts," as the Kabbala claims and a restoration of this will be better understood when "the abomination" of Antichrist stands once again in the Holy Place or church.
Tuatha De Danann was the Irish name for this mother of all the gods, and she is known in many forms. She is Anu, a goddess of plenty, yet also a destroyer of illusions. As Brigit, similar to the Greek MUSES (Rev 18), she was the goddess of knowledge, poetry, and the arts. This included music and perverted sexuality. With her two sisters she was connected with HEALING and shamanic powers. With these two, she came to be known as one of the Mothers, the three goddesses of Fate, and, among the Celts the original nature people who worshipped these Mothers became the FAIRIES.
The original word for the FAIRIES was "fay," a common euphemism for effeminate or gay. It is derived from the Latin "fata", the individual Fates of men personified as the supernatural power of women. "Fay" itself means both enchanted and bewitched. "Fay-erie" was used for the state of enchantment identical to that of the garden of Eden, by Inanna in Babylon and by ZOE in later Gnosticism.
The FAIRIES used music to mediate the realm of the "primitive" old brain to perceive and worship nature or FEELINGS. They personified it as the natural world of the feminine - thousands of years before neurologists understood. As the legends continued to evolve, the FAIRIES, like their kin, the Elves, came to also be known as "the children of Eve."
Celtic bardes (poets) were particularly powerful. They appeared as the young GAY men who gathered round and who were successors to the high-ranking pagan priests. And these gay priests, with their magical operations, were themselves often inseparable from the gender-benders who came before, the medicine-men and horned shamans, freely mixing sexuality with the supernatural in their rites.
In Ireland, continuing down to the 17th century, it was common for the king or chieftain to turn to the bardes, whose duty it was, just like the Horned Gods or his Two-Spirit native brothers,
----to mediate the mysterious powers of life.
Yet with newer forces of Celtic masculinity came new gods who challenged the FAIRIES' traditions, gods from the world of the left brain and the patriarchal frame of mind, "one in which the 'nobler' or 'better' or 'higher' part of human-beings was increasingly identified [with] abstract, discursive reason.
----Feelings and passions, especially sexual passion were known to make giving heed to God's Word impossible.
What does this mean? It simply means that the Bible and History associates music and magic with the Trolls, brownies, goblins, pixies, Peter Pans or FAIRIES with Inanna, Eve, Zoe, Lucifer, Satan. It means that if you lust to pick a TRADE or tradesman (Canaanite) to stand in the Holy Place and claim to be mediators "to lead the worshipers into the presence of God" you may be FULFILLING PROPHECY. There is not a SHRED of Bible or history to even HINT that this is not the fact.
Ken Sublett
William Daigle (no login) 205.188.209.10
Where do you get this stuff?
November 30 2002, 7:52 AM
Mr. Sublett, I do not know you and judging from the rantings you regularly post, would not want to know you. Although I agree (I think - it's hard to tell) with the basic core of your message regarding CCM, you are not helping your cause with these lengthy, incoherent ravings. (What in the name of all that's holy do "fairies" have to do with anything?) The point of this board seems to be that you all object to the Contemporary Church Movement. Explain what that is, explain why you object to it, outline how it has affected your church and your lives and then move on.
Your obvious hostility is probably eating you up. Find something more productive to do.
William Daigle
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Where do you get this stuff? (William Daigle) November 30 2002, 7:52 AM
December 2 2002, 6:10 PM
Mr. Daigle,
You asked Mr. Sublett, “What in the name of all that's holy do "fairies" have to do with anything?”
I’m not responding for Mr. Sublett, but I’m curious and I need to know exactly “THE NAME of ALL that’s HOLY.” And I’m not sure I understand what you meant by “with anything.” Aren’t we discussing religious issues and concerns here? Perhaps, you need to pay more attention to details and take things in context.
“Fairies” are not any less mystical to me than what WORSHIP LEADERS are about. As I’ve already mentioned in some posts, 90% of church conflicts stems from worship issues. WORSHIP LEADERS are arrogant as they claim to mediate and lead just “regular” members to the worship of our Father in heaven. They refuse to acknowledge the fact that it is the trendy movement in worship that’s causing many churches to disintegrate. While there are many other doctrinal issues that confront the church of Christ today, worship issues are dominant. And within worship, the WORSHIP LEADER’S demeanor is dominant. The praise team dominates the singing and discourages participation by “regular” members who cannot match their musical talents. In essence, going to an assembly equates to going to a “MUSICAL” WORSHIP. Worse yet is when going to an assembly equates to going to a worship concert or a “MUSICAL.” A WORSHIP MUSICAL!!!
This board is full of posts that find the Contemporary Church Movement and the Contemporary Church Music objectionable. So, what is your church affiliation that has embraced the CCM and has been unaffected by this divisive force?
Donnie
Anonymous (no login) 204.30.62.100
Re: Where do you get this stuff? By William Daigel:
December 2 2002, 11:42 PM
Member At Madison and I Attend:
Mr. Daigel,
You found out quick that any criticism of the "expert critic) Mr. Sublett will get a quick response from the self appointed authority, Mr. Cruz. You are so right, their hostility is eating them up.
You ask what do "faries' have to do with anything? Of course, nothing. However, it gives them an opportunity to divert attention away from the real issues and create a "straw man" which they have become experts in destroying ( at least they think so).
No, Mr. Sublett is not content to stick to the facts of what is happening but likes to ramble on and on about "music! music! music! He reminds me of a preacher I knew once; He said, "assign me any subject you want to, I'll still preach the same thing."
All they have done is object. They object to the songs, the sermons, the contribution, they are heart broken over the good contribution two weeks ago. Now, the fact that some people are praying for each other, is driving them "NUTS". Why don't he come down front and show us how a prayer is suppose to be done? Every week Donnie goes over the whole service and nit-picks it to pieces. I think a good name for him would be "DONNIE, THE NIT-PICKER, CRUZ". Sublett, now he is the self proclaimed "Bishop At Large". Notice how he writes for all the sites. Of course he doesn't have a throne to sit on, he just operates from a "holler in Honhwold."
If Mr. Sublett would only realize any good point he might have is lost in his lengthy, incoherent ravings.
I have become convinced he is a hopeless case and that is sad to say the least.
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 66.20.110.243 on Dec 3, 2002 9:35 AM
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Where do you get this stuff? (by William Daigel), from Anonymous 12.02.02 11:42 PM
December 3 2002, 12:18 PM
Hello, Anon:
I would like to point out that the authority that must be is ONLY the Holy Scripture, not the Saddleback or Community Church culture-driven approach to church growth. I have no objection to you questioning my source, which is the Holy Bible. So far, you have not done that. Instead, I believe you need to question the self-designated WORSHIP LEADER and his “authority” to mediate or call “regular” members to worship the Almighty God.
Non-CCM contributors to this site DO NOT DEVIATE from the real issues, unless prompted by and only in response to CCM followers, who are obviously the ones deviating. Yes, MUSIC! MUSIC! MUSIC! Unless you accept the fact that 90% of church conflicts revolves around worship issues, you will never see and understand why MUSIC or MUSICAL WORSHIP or WORSHIP MUSICAL or the WORSHIP CONCERT is strongly emphasized in various posts. Mr. Sublett has been consistent in delivering his message dealing with that subject matter. His perspective and thorough research in light of what’s revealed in the scriptures about WORSHIP, both in the Old Testament period and in the Christian era, has been accurate and truthful and factual.
Anon, do you recall the amount of indebtedness that was announced a few weeks ago? 3.5 million dollars! That I am … “heartbroken” over the “good” contribution? Now, you have my honest feeling and answer. So, the VISION 2003 is over. Ask your church leaders what lies ahead. VISION 2004! VISION 2005! VISION 2006! You … can fill in the rest.
Donnie
Anonymous (no login) 204.30.61.87
Re: To Donnie: Where do you get this stuff: etc....
December 3 2002, 11:33 PM
Member At Madison and I Attend:
Yes, Donnie this debt will take some time to repay. Just what have you done to help or hinder it? Could it be you are one of those who is withholding? Of course you never made any commitment in the first place, that would be wrong.
Yes, you do stick to the issue, regardless of the question your answer is more and more CCM, CCM, CCM, and Ken's is more MUSIC!MUSIC!MUSIC! Now you have admitted it. As I said, any good point you might have is lost in the long, long,l-o-n-g ramblings. And you still sit in the assembly each week. There you are, right in the middle of the very thing you say is so evil. You have no excuse, you know better. Do you really think your being present gives credibility to your weekly criticism?
I do believe there is a spy among us........
I predict you will repeat yourself again in answer to this..........
This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 66.20.110.243 on Dec 4, 2002 10:36 AM
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: To Donnie: Where do you get this stuff: etc.... (Anonymous) 12.03.02 11:33 PM
December 5 2002, 5:13 PM
You said, “Yes, Donnie this debt will take some time to repay.” I couldn’t agree more. But no one else is to be blamed for this colossal indebtedness, how it came about and how it is being handled, except the leadership of the church. Since you’ve “concluded” that I “never made any commitment in the first place … that would be wrong,” maybe it is justifiable that you be asked to reveal to the public your own commitment and how much. (I wonder if I might regret later on that I actually “helped” advertise this fund-raising campaign by pointing out that the “tithing” method was an unscriptural gimmick employed in this situation.)
Let me aver that I do stick to the issue. I am proud of it. And your prediction is right that I would repeat my answer. So, here it is: CCM, CCM, CCM (Community Church Movement, Contemporary “Christian” Music, Charismatic Christianity Misguided). MUSIC! MUSIC! MUSIC! (Music, “musical” worship, worship concert, worship musical, “holy” entertainment.) Music was absent in the gatherings by the early New Testament Christians. The closest reference that the Scripture can offer to the body of Christians is when it mentions “teaching and admonishing” one another –- and in this case, singing (besides reading and studying God’s word) is one of the avenues by which teaching can be accomplished.
Anon, let me remind you that it is not the fault of the membership in a worship assembly when it is misguided and misdirected by the WORSHIP LEADER. Your WORSHIP LEADER should be conducting and directing his PRAISE TEAM somewhere else at some concert or musical, and just let some song leader or starter sing with the CONGREGATION. What about just letting the congregation sing to the best of its ability, instead of watching and listening to some “excellent” musical performance? Yes, I sit in the assembly and in the midst of the holy entertainment. But I also know for certain that there are still many in the assembly who share with me in contending for the faith. Just because the “leadership” atmosphere is modern-day “charismatic,” that that is reason for members like me and many others who share the same spiritual and scriptural values to be ostracized. Your question: “Do you really think your being present gives credibility to your weekly criticism?” The answer is a BIG Y-E-S!!! Why? Because it is very difficult to refute God’s teachings! Try it!
Donnie
(no login) 63.84.81.34
Trolls, Fairies and fays for pay.
December 3 2002, 12:14 PM
Who Cyprian is? Ask the TEAM toiling for TITHING.
Argument.-"He Forbids an ACTOR, If He Continue in His Disgraceful Calling, from Communicating in the Church.
"Neither Does He Allow It to Be an Excuse for Him, that He Himself Does Not Practice the Histrionic ART,
So Long as He Teaches It to Others;
"Neither Does He Excuse It Because of the Want of Means,
"Since Necessaries May Be Supplied to Him from the Resources of the Church;
"If he cannot be silenced:
And Therefore, If the Means of the Church There are Not Sufficient, He Recommends Him to Come to Carthage.
1. Cyprian to Euchratius his brother, greeting. From our mutual love and your reverence for me you have thought that I should be consulted, dearest brother, as to my opinion concerning a certain actor, who, being settled among you,
"still persists in the discredit of the same art of his; and as a master and teacher, not for the instruction, but for the DESTRUCTION of BOYS, that which he has unfortunately learnt he also imparts to others: you ask whether such a one ought to communicate with us.
"This, I think, neither befits the divine majesty nor the discipline of the Gospel, that the modesty and credit of the Church should be POLLUTED by so disgraceful and infamous a contagion.
"For since, in the law, men are forbidden to put on a woman's garment, and those that offend in this manner are judged accursed,
--"how much greater is the crime, not only to take women's garments, but also to express base and EFFEMINATE and luxurious GESTURES, by the teaching of an immodest ART.
2. Nor let any one excuse himself that he himself has GIVEN UP the theatre, while he is still teaching the art to others. For he cannot appear to have given it up who substitutes others in his place,
--"and who, instead of himself alone, supplies many in his stead; against God's appointment,
--"instructing and teaching in what way a MAN may be BROKEN DOWN into a woman, and his sex changed by ART
Note 1 [In the Sistine Chapel of the Vatican, to the DISGRACE of the pontifical court, the fine music is obtained by recourse to this expedient, inflicted upon children.]
----THIS IS THE MEANING OF A CAPPELLA, A CAPPELLA, A CAPPELLA: men broken down into women.
----"and how the DEVIL who pollutes the divine image may be gratified by the sins of a corrupted and enervated body.
Musical melody enervates the total body: and when you are not worshiping Lord Jesus Christ by GIVING ATTENTION to His words you are INTENTIONALLY WORSHIPING THE DEVIL (1 Cor 10; Rom 10)
---Chalal (h2490) to BORE, wound, to dissolve; FIGURATIVE to PROFANE a person, place or thing, to break one's word, denom. (from 2485) to PLAY the FLUTE, take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, POLLUTE, PROSTITUTE, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
Same as HALAL which means to MAKE SELF VILE as David did singing, playing and dancing naked.
"But if such a one alleges poverty and the necessity of small means, his necessity also can be assisted among the rest who are maintained by the support of the Church;
---"if he be content, that is, with very frugal but innocent food. And let him not think that he is redeemed by an allowance to cease from sinning, since this is an advantage not to us, but to himself. See Didache and Calvin on feeding teachers.
============================================
Musical "idol" worship is the key which unlocks many closets:
"No doubt, while the media has been focusing on so-called pedophile priests, there are incidents of abuse in other groups. For example, almost 42 percent of the respondents in a 1990 study on sexual harassment in the United Methodist Church reported "unwanted sexual behavior by a colleague or pastor; 17 percent of laywomen said that their own pastor had harassed them." Another survey of mainline Protestant pastors revealed that "10 percent of those surveyed had been sexually active with an adult parishioner."
http://www.swrc.com/PropObserver/2002/may.htm
There are NO "FOR HIRE" STAFF POSITIONS in any true church other than SENT EVANGELISTS. Others are hired to SEDUCE the seeker out of their money. There is no TITHING or LAW OF GIVING for those redeemed by the blood of Christ: the final LAMB mocked by the musical warrior team.
Trolls, Fairies and fays for pay.
Mi.3:11 The heads thereof judge for REWARD, and the priests thereof TEACH for HIRE, and the prophets thereof DIVINE for MONEY: yet will they lean upon the Lord, and say, Is not the Lord among us? none evil can come upon us.
I'd blame someone too if I had grown up to be able to reed and rite and have to lash out at others because of my Biblical and historical illiteracy BOUGHT at a PRICE TOO HIGH from Sunday Skule in Canaan Land!
Ken: body not for sale!
Michelle Mills (no login) 68.53.141.176
2 Samuel 6
December 3 2002, 3:43 PM
Quote from Kenneth Sublett - Same as HALAL which means to MAKE SELF VILE as David did singing, playing and dancing naked.
The above reference to David has been made many times on this site and always to point out his vileness. I have not read anything where someone has put the entire chapter together or addressed the last three verses of 2 Samuel 6. This entire chapter and its possible inconsistency has puzzled me for many years.
21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.
23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
And yet 1 Kings 11:4 speaks of David in this way:
4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
Based upon research of Bible texts, could anyone given an informed explanation for why Michal had no child until the day of her death? Was it her choice because of David's vileness? Was David transformed at some point between 2 Samuel and 1 Kings from someone vile to someone whose heart was perfect with the LORD his God? I would think the term "therefore" lends some strength to the words.
Did God "close Michal's womb" because of her contempt for David as some literature supposes? If this passage has no signficance at all, why would it be there? I realize there are several questions here, but this has puzzled me to no small degree.
Some concise answers about this issue, without a lot of digression, would be most appreciated. I am not a great intellect and I do not have the time to do hundreds of hours of research on this matter but some clear-cut answers where I can reference the Holy Bible in context would be helpful in my study.
(no login) 63.84.81.11
2 Samuel 6
December 3 2002, 7:56 PM
I was with you until you got to the last paragraph: if you want sound bytes I cannot do that. To understand David you have to understand that ALL kings were the result of Israel's elders firing God and demanding a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations. The kings were to carry out God's death sentence imposed at Mount Sinai because of the musical PLAY which David repeated as he separated the ark from the tabernacle and moved it to a JEBUSITE HIGH PLACE.
If you don't understand the flow of Israel's history especially from Egypt onward it is unlawful and spiritually dangerous to grasp a proof text out of context. The kings were chosen as warriors and leaders of a secular kingdom: not as spiritual leaders.
"Wearing a linen ephod, David once performed an ecstatic dance before the ark of the Lord. From the fact that his wife Michal chided him for having uncovered himself before his servant's handmaidens (2 Sam. 6:20), it seems likely that the king's exhibition was vulgar and revealing. Apparently as a retaliation for her scolding, David fathered no children by Michal (2 Sam. 6:23)" (Garrison, p. 31-32).
It is just as likely that Michal refused to live with David after seeing something very disturbing. After all, She was spiritually correct according to the Law and David "uncovered" himself.
Furthermore, David assured that Michal's other children or step children and grandchildren of Saul were abandoned to human sacrifice to prevent any of Saul's lineage from surviving.
As far as I can determine David committed EVERY major sin. Therefore, he was VILE because he said that he would become even more vile. However, David never built temples and errected idols for idol worship.
And the Lord was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the FIRST ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim; 2 Chron 17:3
When Israel PLAYED at Mount Sinai it was music, instruments and sexual activity. When Samson was forced to PLAY and GRIND in the king's house he was forced to become a male prostitute. When David PLAYED and made himself vile? Your move.
Ken Sublett
Michelle Mills (no login) 68.53.141.176
2 Samuel 6 continued
December 3 2002, 11:37 PM
First of all, thank you for not straying too far from the subject. It makes it much easier to follow and study further.
But to go directly back to the text in question:
18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
19 And he dealt among all the people, even among the whole multitude of Israel, as well to the women as men, to every one a cake of bread, and a good piece of flesh, and a flagon of wine. So all the people departed every one to his house.
20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!
21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.
You stated:
If you don't understand the flow of Israel's history especially from Egypt onward it is unlawful and spiritually dangerous to grasp a proof text out of context. The kings were chosen as warriors and leaders of a secular kingdom: not as spiritual leaders.
I did not indicate that David was a spiritual leader, but that, according to scripture, his heart was perfect with the LORD his God. ---- All the "proof texts" I have seen posted in this forum in regard to David, including 2 Samuel 6, have indicated (seemingly) that because Michal despised him for his dance before the Lord, THAT PASSAGE was proof of music being of Satan. It strongly appears that to use this particular PIECE of text as proof of the evils of music is spiritually dangerous and grasping a proof text out of context. Please take note that I am EMPHATICALLY NOT using the text, even in its entirety, to PROMOTE the use of music, dancing, or nakedness in worship.
Your made the point that David could have retaliated against Michal by giving her no more children. Or, Michal could have turned away from David with the same result. OR, God could have closed her womb because he was displeased with her attitude toward David, as I have heard put forth in theory. -- I still do not find anything to confirm or dispute any of the three (3) possibilities and perhaps this is one of those silence on the subject things that will remain unknown.
(no login) 63.84.81.162
2 Samuel 6 continued
December 4 2002, 1:32 PM
I don't make the music connection dangerously: David's PLAY was identical to the terminal sign at Mount Sinai. More later if you care.
The WAY into the kingdom does NOT lead through performance preaching or the "praise leader." Jesus sent evangelists out to make DISCIPLES or seekers and NOT ritualistic worshipers or builders of towers of babbling. Think of the WAY Jesus spoke of as "well off the freeway, way out in the country 'outside the camp,' down a VERY narrow trail, and past a well-hidden gait." STRAIT means that it is ALMOST covered up. Satan has his own pastors and evangelists: his task is to get our infantile impulses going to LOCK OUT the ability to search for that path so narrow that only a FEW will find it. There are no worship teams or hucksters trying to collect all of the masses and money: Discipleship is between YOU and the WAY of Christ.
In Paul's letters, the MANY were professionals trying to squeeze money out of the poor and widows. Therefore, when you see the buzzards circling then know that something is very dead. There is nothing that I know of about 'church' as it has apostasized which contributes to YOUR finding YOUR way into the presence of Christ. I don't know how ANY musical SECTARIANISM and LEGALISM can NOT be intentionally organized to keep your Eye off the Prize. Jesus said:
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
--Matt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
----Matt 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Now, I am not being arrogant when I tell you that you have never heard a single CHURCHMAN who either knows or cares that the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was a TERMINAL SIN from which there would be NO REDEMPTION because there would be NO change. God TURNED ISRAEL OVER to worship the starry hosts according to Stephen. When Israel demanded a king, the WAY defined in SCRIPTURE is easily found by individual seekers: no professional is going to tell you the truth because it would destroy his reason for being A KING SET OVER US.
God gave human kings in His anger and He took them away in His anger. Ecclesiasticus which I have already quoted many times shows that God gave the KINGS to lead the nation into captivity to carry out their Sinai death sentence.
David decided to let the people be destroyed to pay for HIS sin of numbering the warriors. After a plague-stopping animal sacrifice (no music) God CONDESENDED to David and allowed him to build a NATION-LIKE altar at a Jebusite High place: Zion. But, Stephen got killed in part for telling the clergy that "God doesn't dwell in houses built by human hands."
God was sought not at the ark of the covenant but at the Tabernacle. However, David separated Ark from the Tent as God's choice believing that God lived in the box just as modern kings believe they have Him trapped in the building or temple. David was TOO FEARFUL of the Tabernacle because of the angels to ever enquire of God. Therefore, God WAS NOT in the box as He was not there in the Ebenezzer monument to Israel's cowardice.
David now CHANGED THE LAWS to be a LIKE THE NATIONS temple-state. At the same time the huge sacrificial system was to force the people to PAY FOR THEIR OWN SINS after firing God. If you TITHE you are PAYING human priests and noise makers to ATONE FOR YOUR SINS. Both the collector and givers have repudiated Lord Jesus Christ. IGNORANCE is NO excuse: the blind led by the blind will still fall into the ditch and God will not rescue ANYONE so sifted of spiritual truth that they can be led back to MOCK Jesus with music.
I have posted some random notes to prove that the temple was a NATIONAL (meaning Babylonian) temple permitted by God because that was their PRAYER. The WAY to grasping this is not for the feeble heart or ritualistic worshiper:
http://www.piney.com/Temple-like-Nations.html
If it seems TOO LONG, it is shorter than a sermon, tells the truth and you don't have to listen or pay me the TITHE to "die for your sins." Notice that all of the NOISE not called "music" was OUTSIDE of the typical church. In addition, the trumpets or collection plates were also OUTSIDE the holy places or church as Paul insisted "This is not a command."
Now, just take David's word for it: Here is what the Hebrew words really mean:
David returned to bless his family. But Michal came out to meet him and exclaimed in disgust, "How glorious the king of Israel looked today!
-------He exposed himself to the girls along the street like a common pervert!" 2 Sam 6:20LIV
David didn't care about Michal as long as the servant girls honored him:
And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of THEM shall I be had in honour. 2 Chron 6:22
The Ark of the covenant had become an idol: David believed that when he danced naked before the ark he was dancing before God.
And David said unto Michal, It was before the Lord, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord, over Israel: therefore will I play before the Lord. 2 Chron 6:21
Whatever David believed, God's symbolic presence was still at Gibeon and not in Jerusalem: a Jebusite High Place beginning in idol worship and never essentially changed. Of the food offered:
"we recognize the same elements: the sacrifices and libation, the cultic feast in which the congregation gets a share of food and drink after it has been blessed by the king, and the merry-making, now in the form of instrumental and vocal music. But the central act of the ritual, which was performed by the king, is called literally 'drinking' the god (Gurney, O. R. Some Aspects of Hittite Religion, p. 33-34, Oxford University Press, 1977)
"The ritual observances at the Hebrew and at the a Canaanite sanctuary were so similar that to the mass of the people Jehovah worship and Baal worship were not separated by any well-marked line... A sacrifice was a public ceremony of a township or clan... Then the crowds streamed into the sanctuary from all sides, dressed in their gayest attire, marching joyfully to the sound of music, and bearing with them not only the victims appointed for sacrifice, but store of bread and wine set forth the feast...Universal hilarity prevailed." (Gurney, p. 37).
As for David: others are normally compared to the FIRST WAYS OF DAVID. To be selected as a man after God's own heart really means that GOD SELECTED Him to be the human king. But remember that the Human King was selected to carry out the conditional sentence of captivity and death God promised them when they rejected Him and demanded human leaders. Hosea still says that God selected them in His anger and took them away in his anger. The entire Monarchy period was Israel in DEEP APOSTASY for rejecting God in Egypt for 430 years, repudiating His Book of the Covenant or covenant of Grace by their musical idolatry at Mount Sinai and the BEYOND REDEMPTION sin of FIRING God as KING and PRIEST on one throne. David was the secular, carnal TYPE but Jesus would be BOTH king and priest on one throne "and there would be harmony between them BOTH."
David was chosen in God's Anger as a LIKE THE NATION'S king. Therefore, he was not ACCEPTED as King but had to kill and execute the opposition to gain control of a doomed nation:
"Part of the deal was for David to receive Michal, Saul's daughter and David's first wife. Michal's tearful parting from her own husband is described with great pathos (II Sam. 3:12-15). Governed chiefly by cold political calculation, David sought to establish a claim upon Saul's throne by taking Michal into his harem. Saul's male descendants were either liquidated in typical oriental style or put under careful custody (II Sam. 21:1-14). At the age of thirty-seven, David had become unchallenged ruler of all Israel." (Anderson, p. 178)
Hosea "condemned the INSTITUTION of the monarchy, seeing in it a symptom of a harlotrous spirit. Saul's hometown of Gibeah and his coronation at Gilgal were evidences of Israel's determination to REJECT Yahweh as king (1 Sam 8:4; 9:15; 10:3, 9). The consequences of Israel's betrayal of the COVENANT were to be seen in the regicides (7:3-7), the feverish foreighn policy aimed at courting Egypt or Assyria (7:11), and the foolish reliance upon arms and fortifications (8:14). Stubborn and determined, Israel had insisted on being LIKE the NATIONS,' and as a result she was 'swallowed up' among the nations (8:8) and 'strangers' were consuming her strength (7:8-9).
"This harloutrous spirit had led the people into a false and IDOLATROUS religion. Like the other great prophets, Hosea knew that religion was NOT necessarily a good thing, for it could be a way of betraying God, a manifestation of sin. In Hosea's time, popular religion, corrupted by the fertility cult of Canaan, provided a means of obtaining the good things of nature and tethering God to human interests. People thronged to the temples, not to acknowledge gratefully their utter dependence upon the God who had brought them out of Egypt, but to 'get something out of religion'." (Bernard Anderson, Theology of the O.T. p. 287).
Musical "praise" teams take their authority from TERMINAL IDOLATRY. Tithing is repudiating the fact that Jesus died to give us REST from the IMPOSED RELIGION which has its counterparts (totally) in the Towers of Babylon.
"The quotation from Acts refers to David early in life, before he had fallen into those great sins which cast such a shadow upon his administration...This commendation is not absolute, but describes the character of David in comparison with that of Saul...It merely indicates a man whom God will approve, in distinction from Saul, who was rejected" (Haley, p. 222).
More on Michal later. But, don't expect God to punish Michal for David's terminal sin separating God's Tabernacle and the new Temple at the Jebusite High place. The ARK was a symbol of power and would be lost to keep people from worshiping it. David is simply fulfilling God's promise to use the kings to destroy the nation. No! Males are not defended by God against females. Read 1 Samuel chapter 8 forward to see that David was one of God's bonecrushers to gnaw the flesh of the people like all human shepherds.
Ken Sublett
Bonecrusher (no login) 216.201.216.182
David Vile???
December 3 2002, 11:54 PM
Kenny I would venture to say that you are no judge of David and his vileness. That is up to the Lord God...and David was a man after God's own heart. With regard to his sins...he is no more a sinner than you and I. God does not see sin the way we do. He does not count one sin more vile than another. You are just as much a sinner as David. Don't make another mistake like that one.
You think you have it sooooooo right. And yet you are soooooooo wrong about being sooooooo right. You will find that out sooner or later.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Tithing NT Christians November 21 2002, 11:05 PM
November 22 2002, 12:23 PM
Dennis,
The true Bible scholar has so much depth that a shallow mind must regard it as being asinine and incomprehensible. Thank you, Kenneth Sublett, for providing me and other receptive individuals much of your well-researched resources as verifiable evidences of what the Holy Scripture teaches.
Donnie
Jeff Day (no login) 68.15.240.172
Ken Didn't Hang The Moon...
November 22 2002, 4:20 PM
Donnie. Please......I am gonna cry. Ken Sublett DID NOT hang the moon. And, last I checked he was not one of the Apostles. Ken, just like all of us is a sinner, and I am sure he would be the first to admit it. You respect him, that is good. I am sure in person he is a likeable guy. However, when he continually rambles on and on without making any sense....COME ON!
He is also given incredible lisense to call people things that he would be punched for in a face-to-face conversation. I don't think he could take that at his age.
Really Donnie, I know you like Ken personally, but lets keep the fawning to a minimum. Ken IS wrong on some things and right on others, just like the rest of us. Despite his use of historical texts, He seems to use the Bible some in his ramblings and some of his ramblings actually make sense.
Anyway. Let Kenny fight his own battles. I am sure with the "intellect" he has gathered over the years he can defend himself quite nicely. Or, when he villifys me next time, you can come to my defense.
JD
(no login) 68.52.16.50
Kenny, Hang in there
November 23 2002, 12:31 AM
As a former member of Madison Church of Christ I am grieved by what's happening there. I believe that the Community Church Growth Movement is an abomination that is part of the falling away (apostasia) mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Also Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."
And I thank you Mr. Sublett, for your continued faithfulness in studying the Word of God. Your postings have reminded m of my own Bible teacher. I keep wanting to say when the others have complained, "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." I have enjoyed tremendously your postings because you are genuinely crying out for these people to understand the severity of the situation at hand. They need to go read and find out why Israel ended up in Babylon. I know that one doesn't learn much of the God's word while one is being entertained, entertaining, or being in the entertaining business. And spiritually one doesn't leave the burning building while the deafening music is drowning out the fire alarm.
Some of the postings protesting your writings remind me of Isaiah 30:10. "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"
I believe this situation calls for unceasing prayer.
Prayer is "proseuchomai" which means "bowing to the will of God" And Christ prayed "nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." That is the prayer of faith.
Contending for the faith......Barbara Ann
(no login) 63.84.81.19
Kenny, hanging
November 23 2002, 6:09 PM
Thank you Barb (:-} if that doesn't offend you!
When you sign your name it is probably going to hurt: but not for eternity. We turn coats by asking WWJD? But, we know already. Grace and prayer gives way to YWBD (your will be done).
But, everone has to receive the MARK: Was God through Isaiah calling my name to be blind and deaf because I lost my ears?
The Bible and history pours out abundant signs and it is a "miracle" to me that they are all being fulfilled in a supernatural (or unnatural) way. Don't worry about being forced to Armageddon because it is a polemic battle and you cannot be part of the battle and still hide.
I think that there are many (not the majority) who can still hear the Spirit but it isn't worth anything unless you step up and say: "My name is Barb, I am a Christian."
Ken, just "tickled to death."
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests (Nov. 17.02) –- Continued
November 20 2002, 4:18 PM
==================================================
It was mentioned in my preceding post that results from the “Thanksgiving Tithing” for Vision 2003 Retirement of Indebtedness, collected on 11-17-02, might be published in the upcoming Madison Marcher for this week. Well …
==================================================
==================================================
EDDIE WILLIAMS REPORTS: RE: CRUISE CONTROL November 18 2002, 12:35 PM
==================================================
[Side note: As of Sunday afternoon (11.17.02) The money raised for debt retirement is $397,527.45. Ain't that great? Ain't that wonderful? (Ya'll don't mind if I borrow an Ira phrase?)]
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THANKS FOR THE REPORT, EDDIE, BUT PLEASE REPORT MORE DATA & ANALYSES.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--- The membership on roll is 4,493 and represented by 1,973 families
--- The remaining indebtedness is $3,593,750
--- The monthly note is $30,000 at 4.7% interest
--- Other offerings to be accounted for (burnt, heave, freewill)
--- Other tithes of “thy” corn, wine, oil
--- Other tithes from firstlings of herds and flocks
--- Other ways of commitment:
--- --- (a) real estate, (b) stocks or bonds, (c) antiques, (d) jewelry,
--- --- (e) life insurance policies or equity, (f) works of art,
--- --- (g) income tax refunds, (h) coins or stamp collection,
--- --- (i) revocable or irrevocable trusts
--- --- (z) vehicles, boats, equipment and other personal, taxable properties
Eddie, when all has been accounted for, could you provide us with statistical analyses and facts based on the list above? Was it all money pledged and in cash and checks? The parking lot looked the same to me that Sunday (no boats and no firstlings of herds and flocks to be seen). At the rate of $400,000 tithed every year, will it take that long [many years] to fully recover from the $3,500,000 indebtedness? It appears that there will be Vision 2004, 2005, 2006, etc., tithing campaigns coming.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
DONNIE CRUZ’S STATEMENT SPARKS “HEALING SERVICE” CONTROVERSY
==================================================
Donnie said that [… there was something about to be done that folks were not accustomed to … some folks did oblige by coming forward to gather in front for some “prayer for healing” that was led by elder Pat Burch. What’s going on with all this … that it’s no longer sufficient to pray for the sick without this little gathering? Another one of those charismatic imitations? Indeed! Indeed! … I believe the CCM’s have expanded and extended their base at Madison: Community Church Movement, Contemporary Christian Music, Charismatic Christianity Malaise. Wake up, brethren! Intrusion, diversion, transformation, “bye-bye” to the church of Christ – these are all still alive and well and active at Madison!!!]
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JAMES KISNER, MINISTER OF WORSHIP [?] AT A “PROGRESSIVE” [?] CHURCH OF CHRIST [?] IN WISCONSIN, STATES (cf. November 18 2002, 5:43 P.M.):
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[I will only deal with one issue in this post. The issues of music, love feast, etc., have been beaten to death on this site, and any further dialogue on them seems an exercise in futility. However, the issue of a healing service and whether it is scriptural or not is interesting.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
DENNIS: JUST GRADUATED FROM COLLEGE AND SUMMER YOUTH MINISTRY INTERN WITH “OVERLAND PARK CHURCH” STATES (cf. November 18 2002, 10:46 P.M.):
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Mr Kisner, Praise God for the work He is doing in your life and through the way He has healed your mother! That is a testimony to the healing power that we see in the God we serve. I am a part of the Madison Church of Christ family and do believe in the power of prayer.]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
AMELIA: THANKFUL FOR TEXT, POSTS “JAMES 5” (cf. Nov. 19, 2002, 10:05 A.M.):
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Your mother certainly understood it and by obeying, she was healed. I would guess you were all pretty merry from the good news as well and sang psalms!! … From the Donnie Cruz most recent post: HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF): ****I, Amelia, believe this does illustrate the arrogance, diversion, and division that he has denied using****]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JEFF DAY: [KENNETH SUBLETT,] “YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED” Nov. 19 2002, 9:43 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[Kenneth, How DARE you judge James and his mother and what God did for her… I have been the brunt of your ramblings before, but you have taken it TOO FAR this time. You have blasphemed the Father Himself, by proclaiming His healing work as "mistaken identity". Read James 5. ITS RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOUR NOSE!!! Or are you just a contrarian that thinks "he knows it all"? NONE of us know it all. Like James K, I think you would argue with Jesus if He was here....and I think He is. WATCH OUT!!]
==================================================
==================================================
HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF): WHAT’S GOING ON WITH ALL THIS … THAT IT’S NO LONGER SUFFICIENT TO PRAY FOR THE SICK WITHOUT THIS LITTLE GATHERING?
==================================================
==================================================
James, allow me to state that the MUSIC issue has been “beaten to death on this site” as a reminder that recent statistics shows that 90% of all church conflicts today is on MUSIC issues. (I am preparing [actually in the process of transcribing] a special article, a historical “perspective” on the shaping of contemporary “Christian” MUSIC in our secular culture.)
At the outset, I was fully aware that my statement on the “healing service” would be an attention-getter, as well as controversial. The statement was very carefully worded, I thought. And so, just what is the fuss about?
I said: “THAT IT’S NO LONGER SUFFICIENT TO PRAY FOR THE SICK WITHOUT THIS LITTLE GATHERING,” which means what? It certainly does not preclude praying for the sick by the elders, according to James 5. The complete text states: “[13] Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. [14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.” The singularity or plurality of the subject or object is evident and significant to me. The subject, the sick, is obviously singular in form: “is any” or “let him call” or “let him pray” or “let him sing” or “pray over him” or “anointing him” or “raise him up” or “he…committed sins” or “be forgiven him.” On the other hand, the word “sins” is plural … naturally. Another plural form is the word “elders,” which even suggests that there is that plurality in a church organization, as well as the appropriateness of MORE THAN ONE ELDER praying for that ONE individual.
The entire TEXT above in context suggests that this type of prayer signifies PRIVACY and NOT A PUBLIC GATHERING or as a PUBLIC spectacle: “LET HIM (one individual) CALL FOR THE ELDERS (two or more) OF THE CHURCH.” Whether or not this “PRAYER” for healing is answered does not justify equating it to the type of miraculous healing that took place in Jesus’ lifetime and the period during which time the chosen apostles were bestowed upon the supernatural POWER to perform miracles in the public arena.
There was a place and time for that type of miraculous healing, just as there was the designated time in which the Holy Spirit manifested itself as a spiritual force beyond our comprehension, such as what is described in Acts 2: “[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” All these events, such as “a sound … as of a rushing mighty wind” and the appearance of “cloven tongues like as of fire” and speaking “with other tongues” – which all occurred prior to the establishment of the church of Christ – have not recurred since the apostolic times.
There has been a set pattern of stages in which God’s will is being directed to us. I Corinthians 12 states: “[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?” Clearly as we no longer have apostles and their performing of miraculous healings, it follows that other activities of similar in nature or scope are no longer needed or applicable today. I Corinthians 13:8-10 states, “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall VANISH away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be DONE AWAY.”
Why a charismatic imitation? Imitation has nothing to do with what churches of Christ believe and practice that the denominational world does, so long as they’re within the authority and scope of the scriptures. But there is strong evidence for the PUSH to PENTECOSTALISM in the church today. The Methodists and the Baptists have joined the “Pentecostal dance.” But that is no excuse for the church being the “called out” to be “culture-driven” and to join the dance as well. The church of Christ has lost its distinctiveness and uniqueness in the last couple of decades. Thanks to you, youth ministers and self-proclaimed WORSHIP LEADERS.
In our stand for scriptural authority, one issue that has divided churches is MUSIC in worship, which, as mentioned earlier, represents 90% of church conflicts today. Similarly, it is the apostolic miraculous power being mistaken for today’s recovery from illness with or without prayer. Also, the inexplicable force and nature of the Holy Spirit being necessary in the beginning stages as the church was being established, with conversion among the Jews first and afterwards with the Gentiles, as in the case of Cornelius and his household. Such SPIRITUAL influences were necessary then. The apostles did all the preparation for the future of the church with its upcoming converts. We now have the scriptures for our learning and guide. It is now up to us to let the Spirit dwell in us and operate through God’s word.
Under siege is the purpose for baptism. Is baptism SO THAT the sins will be remitted and the “times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” (Acts 2:38; 3:19)? Or, is it BECAUSE the sins have already been remitted (scripture not available) BEFORE BAPTISM? Be careful there, Jeff Day! What other false doctrineS are you teaching the youth?
Dennis, I certainly hope you are not equating recovery from an illness with or without prayer to the miraculous deeds that Christ and the apostles performed. Besides, recovery from illness happens also to unbelievers who do not pray at all. Matthew 5:45 says, “… for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.”
Amelia, please re-read and carefully study James 5. With modern technology, you can easily call the elders or call for the elders of the church to pray for recovery. If or when you are healed, just don’t mistake it for the extraordinary, miraculous healings that Christ and the apostles performed. If you badly want to identify such healing with the modern charismatic way, that is certainly your prerogative. Do you have the gift of tongues? You appear to be! I will continue to let the world know what you and your fellow change advocates continue to do – restructure the image of the church, improve upon God’s standards, intrude, divide, divert, pervert, destroy and acquire.
================
Donnie Cruz
Earl (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests (Nov. 17.02) –- Continued
November 20 2002, 5:36 PM
Donnie,
How dare you say that what happened in James Kisner's life not an act of prayer and before you go on saying refer to such and such, etc listen for a minute. I am fed up with all of your PBM on this site and wish that you would grow up and smell the roses. God heals and does amazing things through prayer--apparently you may not have ever seen it. Can't wait till Sunday. BTW, ThankSinging is this Sunday night DONNIE BOY. You gonna be there and bash it like you bash everything else? It starts at 6pm! Or do you have some other prior commitment. Why are you so afraid to face up to those you are hurting? Why don't you accept the invitations many people are offering to you? Why are you refusing to talk about what it is that is bothering you with the church family at Madison? No nonsense is necessary in this response. Just answer the questions and I will be pleased.
Eddie (no login) 68.53.151.223
To: Donnie Cruz
November 21 2002, 12:33 AM
Donnie wrote:
"Eddie, when all has been accounted for, could you provide us with statistical analyses and facts based on the list above? Was it all money pledged and in cash and checks? The parking lot looked the same to me that Sunday (no boats and no firstlings of herds and flocks to be seen). At the rate of $400,000 tithed every year, will it take that long [many years] to fully recover from the $3,500,000 indebtedness? It appears that there will be Vision 2004, 2005, 2006, etc., tithing campaigns coming."
Tell me why I should? I'm not a bean counter. Besides I'm still waiting for an answer to my other questions.
You seem to be trying to "divert" me to a different subject. Is the CCM rubbing off on you?
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 24, 2002)
November 25 2002, 1:20 PM
We’ve been monitoring the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual written by Dr. Kregg Hood. The truth is that tithing (one-tenth or 10%) becomes a doctrinal perversion when taught as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament and made applicable to New Testament Christians. This was never taught by the apostles nor practiced by the early New Testament church. The pioneers of the Restoration Movement adhered to the scriptural principle of giving and were strongly opposed to this doctrinal error. This was NEVER taught and practiced at Madison, either, UNTIL the Saddleback methodology for church growth that employs gimmicks for financial and membership gains was endorsed by its current elders and preacher. Dr. White to this day has continued to preach this doctrinal fallacy. For Dr. White’s sake, the following amounts collected are being referred to as “TITHED”:
==============================================
Church Budget------- 38,000 (2002) ------------- 47,143 (2001)
Children’s Home------- 4,021 (2002) ---------------5,400 (2001)
Amazing Grace/CPI--- 1,539 (2002) ---------------3,000 (2001)
==============================================
TOTAL BUDGET---- 43,560 (2002) -------------55,543 (2001)
--------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) -------------
--- $37,641 was contributed on August 4, 2002.
--- $38,747 was contributed on August 11, 2002.
--- $67,946 was “TITHED” on August 18, 2002 (after core “tithing” sermon on 8/11)
--- $52,733 was “TITHED” on August 25, 2002.
--- $46,316 was “TITHED” on September 1, 2002.
--- $43,657 was “TITHED” on September 8, 2002.
--- $48,710 was “TITHED” on September 15, 2002.
--- $41,205 was “TITHED” on September 22, 2002.
--- $40,534 was “TITHED” on September 29, 2002.
--- $40,308 was “TITHED” on October 6, 2002.
--- $43,394 was “TITHED” on October 13, 2002.
--- $40,588 was “TITHED” on October 20, 2002.
--- $40,829 was “TITHED” on October 27, 2002.
--- $40,989 was “TITHED” on November 3, 2002.
--- $44,124 was “TITHED” on November 10, 2002.
--- $42,497 was “TITHED” on November 17, 2002.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Remember Dr. Kregg Hood, as mentioned above! He authored the tithing manual, “TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD,” subtitled: “Experience the Power of Giving.” The core message of the booklet is in the second section: “I Want You to Tithe So I Can Reward You.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
THE MADISON MARCHER (NOVEMBER 20, 2002), THE PREACHER AND TITHING
==================================================
==================================================
From the PREACHER POTPOURRI (by Dr. C Bruce White):
================================================
[What a tremendous Thanksgiving Sunday! The outpouring of your love for the Lord in the Thanksgiving gift was of encouragement to brethren far and wide. It is evident that you are serious about getting rid of this debt so the ministries of the Lord can go forward. We are anxious to begin having such contributions for mission work.]
================================================
THE MADISON MARCHER (11.20.02): “TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD”
================================================
[TAKE GOD AT HIS WORD]
[We took God at His Word to the amount of $442,542.45]
[This is the total of contributions & pledges.]
[Debt retirement amount is $400,202.45]
[Checks and cash total was $344,457.45.]
================================================
It was announced that as of 11.24.02, Sunday, total [tithed] reached $450,000.
================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS RELATED TO INDEBTEDNESS AND TITHING:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
--- At the rate of $450,000, how quickly will the $3.5 million indebtedness be paid?
--- To further prepare the members, will there be VISION 2004, 2005, 2006, etc.?
--- Did less than 50% of the members on roll contribute a one-time gift?
--- Did less than 10% of the members on roll opt the 12-month pledge?
--- Did less than 10% of the members on roll carry the load of 90% contributed?
--- Did anyone bring tithes of corn, wine and oil as in OT times & an OT command?
--- Did anyone bring other tithes from firstlings of herds and flocks?
--- Per analysis by the contracted firm, how many contributed in these ways:
--- --- (a) real estate, (b) stocks or bonds, (c) antiques, (d) jewelry,
--- --- (e) life insurance policies or equity, (f) works of art,
--- --- (g) income tax refunds, (h) coins or stamp collection,
--- --- (i) revocable or irrevocable trusts
--- How many contributed vehicles, boats, equipment and other properties?
--- Based on the tithes in the last several weeks:
--- --- Was it coincidental that there was not one $39,999 or less tithed? Think!
--- --- Does more than 10% of the membership believe in the tithing doctrine?
--- --- Can more than 10% of the membership afford to tithe, REALLY tithed?
--- --- In spite of tithing, why was the goal of $43,560 not reached in many weeks?
--- --- Isn’t it, according to stats, that Madison’s $40,000 weekly is 25% of 10%?
--- --- When is Dr. White going to achieve the REAL 10% or $160,000 weekly?
--- --- Per numerous testimonies to the tithing experience, when is the next one?
--- --- Will Dr. White continue to teach such a doctrinal fallacy?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
MUSIC: NON-ACAPELLA, INDUCED JOY, SELF-SERVING, MESSAGE NARROW
================================================
--- You Are the Song That I Sing
--- Shout Be Happy
--- o-o-o … heaven is in my heart; o-o-o … heaven is in my heart;
--- --- o-o-o … heaven is in my heart; o-o-o … heaven is in my heart;
--- --- o-o-o … heaven is in my heart … [X TIMES]
--- I’ve Got the Joy [there was a verse with words sung in 1/64 or 1/128-beat;
--- --- the “PRAISE TEAM” successfully delivered the display of talent]
--- My sorrow [turned] into … This is how we overcome
--- --- This is how we overcome; this is how we overcome;
--- --- This is how we overcome; this is how we overcome;
--- --- This is how we overcome; this is how we overcome; [X TIMES]
================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The instrumental simulation [or stimulation] called “handclapping” continues to make the MUSICAL WORSHIP non “a cappella.” The charismatic musical worshippers somehow manage to display their clapping talent unnecessarily. Even certain of the songs that express REVERENCE are being clapped to. The contemporary “Christian” [rock] MUSIC (CCM) has a very narrow message in delivering to the lost God’s plan of salvation. It magnifies the I-ME-MINE-MY-MYSELF image and attitude.
Sadly, the early service at 8:00 for the “traditional” group of believers has some CCM influences evident. But that’s no surprise as it, TOO, has the same WORSHIP LEADER as in the assembly of the OTHER group of believers. What deserves recognition is that CCM contamination at Madison is not full-blown yet, unlike the Richland Hills Church of Christ in Texas, which has 3 separate assemblies but uniform worship service agenda.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF) … ADJUSTMENT: IS NOW “CALL TO PRAYER”
================================================
Frank Scott affirmed that Robin Guidicy’s action last Sunday regarding the “PRAYER FOR HEALING” was “spontaneous.” As we are aware, it was a hotly debated issue last week, although the premise of the remark was: “that it’s no longer sufficient to pray for the sick without this little gathering.” There were so many “I DARE YOU” remarks from the charismatic folks who insisted on making this a charismatic imitation and a public spectacle.
I believe the leaders of the contemporary body of worshippers would not want this to be an embarrassing issue. I don’t know if this is becoming a permanent activity in the contemporary worship program, but this Sunday on 11.24.02, the worship guide listed “CALL TO PRAYER.” (But the ELDERS, who were present, were asked to come to the front first –- THIS TIME. [Something must have been learned from the discussion last week.]) I looked “hard” in the “separate” 8:00 worship guide and DID NOT FIND the “CALL TO PRAYER” activity listed. And I’m somewhat confused as to why after the sermon, two invitations are already extended: (1) the gospel call invitation and (2) the call to meet with the elders in Room 208 for various needs – which to me include both spiritual and physical needs. NOW, there is the “CALL TO PRAYER.” Isn’t this a REPETITION of (2) above –- the call to meet with the elders in Room 208? Given the benefit that the “CALL TO WORSHIP” is only for physical needs, then, how different is that from the ‘HEALING SERVICE” made public? I call for the leaders of the Madison body to explain all of the above and justify this repetitive activity. Or, is this a face-saving maneuver on a doctrinal mishap?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
JAMES 5 CLEARLY STATES: “[13] IS ANY among you afflicted? let HIM pray. IS ANY merry? let HIM sing psalms. [14] IS ANY sick among you? let HIM call for the ELDERS of the church; and let THEM pray over HIM, anointing HIM with oil in the name of the Lord: [15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise HIM up; and if HE have committed sins, THEY shall be forgiven HIM.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE TRUTH IN JAMES 5 NEEDS TO BE RESTATED AS FOLLOWS:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The singularity or plurality of the subject or object is evident and significant to me. The subject, the sick, is obviously singular in form: IS ANY … let HIM call … let HIM pray … let HIM sing … pray over HIM … anointing HIM … raise HIM up … HE committed sins … be forgiven HIM. On the other hand, the word “sins” is plural … naturally. Another plural form is the word “ELDERS,” which even suggests that there is that plurality in a church organization, as well as the appropriateness of MORE THAN ONE ELDER praying for that ONE individual.
The entire TEXT above in context suggests that this type of prayer signifies PRIVACY and NOT A PUBLIC GATHERING or as a PUBLIC spectacle: “LET HIM [one individual] CALL FOR THE [two or more] ELDERS OF THE CHURCH.” Whether or not this “PRAYER” for healing is answered does not justify equating it to the type of miraculous healing that took place in Jesus’ lifetime and the period during which time the chosen apostles were bestowed upon the supernatural POWER to perform miracles in the public arena.
There was a place and time for that type of miraculous healing, just as there was the designated time in which the Holy Spirit manifested itself as a spiritual force beyond our comprehension, such as what is described in Acts 2. All supernatural events, such as “a sound … as of a rushing mighty wind” and the appearance of “cloven tongues like as of fire” and speaking “with other tongues” have not recurred since the apostolic times.
There has been a set pattern of stages in which God’s will is being directed to us as listed in I Corinthians 12:28-30; 13:8-10. Clearly as we no longer have apostles and apostolic miraculous healings, it follows that other activities of similar nature or scope are no longer needed or applicable today. “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be knowledge, it shall VANISH away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be DONE AWAY.”
Is it charismatic imitation? Is the “called out” to participate in the “culture-driven” approach to conformity? The church of Christ has lost its distinctiveness and uniqueness in the last couple of decades. Thanks to you, youth ministers and self-proclaimed WORSHIP LEADERS. The message is clear:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wake up, brethren! Intrusion, diversion, transformation, “bye-bye” to the church of Christ – these are all still alive and well and active at Madison!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Leo (no login) 68.53.148.85
Re: TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued (Nov. 24, 2002)
November 26 2002, 7:10 AM
Donnie,
You said...Sadly, the early service at 8:00 for the “traditional” group of believers has some CCM influences evident.
Just curious...what are the CCM influences at 8:00? You didn't specify.
Leo
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re:TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Cont. (Leo, 11.26.02)
November 26 2002, 2:32 PM
Leo,
Thanks for asking. I believe your question is fair and relevant. I sense that there is growing awareness at Madison and on the part of this site’s guests that there is REALLY such a thing as CCM. Eddie Williams has recently asked me, “Is the CCM rubbing off on you?” I believe this a good sign –- the recognition that CCM is alive and active, and today it is prevalent in some of the churches of Christ. I believe such cognizance is significant as a beginning step in helping rid of the CCM anomaly and infection in the body of Christ.
We’re already familiar with the acronym CCM standing for the “Community Church Movement” and “Contemporary Christian Music.” I might add, “Charismatic Christianity [something].” What comes to mind is the word “malaise” for the “M” … which truly describes “a HAZY FEELING of not being well.” Another word is “malaria” defined as “a disease marked by RECURRING CHILLS and fever. Yet another word is “misguided” because of the behavior of the modern-day charismatics as they claim to be “spirit-filled.” The HAZY FEELING, the RECURRING CHILLS and the MISGUIDED “FEELING” of the presence of the Holy Spirit are all accurate descriptions of many of those who take the leadership role in WORSHIP services, especially the self-designated WORSHIP LEADERS. (Well, that’s a “little” background of what CCM is all about.)
Leo, in regard to “some CCM influences” being evident in the early service, I mentioned in my earlier post (and I’d like to stress it here again), “But that’s no surprise as it [the early service], TOO, has the same WORSHIP LEADER as in the assembly of the OTHER [“contemporary”] group of believers. While that statement seems brief, it really covers a lot of ground. We simply cannot reject or deny the perception that the current “contemporary” WORSHIP LEADER at Madison, who is “charismatic” and with “community church” orientation in word and in his demeanor, is certainly having the CCM domino effect on the traditional folks. That speaks volumes, not to mention the fact that WORSHIP LEADERSHIP is a misnomer!
Donnie
(no login) 204.30.61.169
This week at Madison???
December 2 2002, 11:29 PM
Hey Donnie,
I have noticed quite often in the last week that this site has been down. I haven't been able to be a part of teh services at the Madison Church of Christ for sometime due to my moving to Charlotte NC. I was wondering what in your opinion has been happening. I noticed that you do some sort of weekly report and I haven't seen the one for this week. Thanks
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: This week at Madison??? (Evan) December 2 2002, 11:29 PM
December 3 2002, 11:32 AM
Evan,
Please direct your inquiry regarding the site to ConcernedMembers’ e-mail address. Perhaps, you were accessing it too much last week. Just kidding! I’m sure ConcernedMembers appreciates your keen interest in what’s happening at Madison, as well as in the churches of Christ nationwide. As you know, some of the churches of Christ as we’ve known are transforming and going through the slow, painful death and eventually being revived, absorbed and acquired by the culture-driven Community Church Movement … and away from the Restoration Movement. A congregation might still retain and append “Church of Christ” to the name of the church in that locality, and sadly that’s a form of deception.
In regard to the weekly TIMELINE, I believe it was designed that way whether or not there’s anything to report during the week. The last several weeks have been worth reporting because the controversial doctrinal issue about tithing New Testament Christians was very significant. It certainly has proven that the Community Church culture would resort to any gimmicks for gains in membership (which has miserably failed at Madison) and financially (in this case via tithing or 10% of whatever, which has resulted in way-below-expectations at Madison). I intend to report something that might surprise the Community Church believers [I should say, “movers”] at Madison. My schedule of late has been a constraint, but I’ll try to submit it before the week is over.
Thanks for asking,
Donnie
(no login) 63.84.81.34
Church Growth
December 3 2002, 12:32 PM
Donnie, here is something their THOUGHT LEADER, Rubel Shelly, hatched up from a cockatrice's egg.
"Last Sunday I gave away $30,000.00 in 100 dollar bills in envelopes. I gave them to people who would do random acts of kindness during the week: if you see someone in need why just give them an envelope."
Who gave him the authority to give THEIR hard earned money away to the tune of thirty thousand dollars?
But, Whoa, says my non-judgmental wife: "This is a cheap way to BUY church members!" And so it is. Much more honest than tithing and more STRAIGHT than trying to attract them with theatrical preachers and theatrical singers.
So, for 100 dollars you might be able to BUY 1/2 of a member. If you can get them to TITHE then your return on investment is GREAT. If they make 20K and live in poverty, you can use psychological violence to get 2K right off the top EACH year. Sure beats selling new cars for "10 dollars" or a grave site on the moon.
Benny "Hen" couldn't hatch up a better scam.
Ken Sublett
(no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Church Growth
December 3 2002, 3:12 PM
Ken,
I would advise that you start to think before you start to type. This is totally irrelevant in my opinion. I'm not trying to be rude but concerned. Concerned for those who desire to worship God freely and however they choose to without others biting their heads off for doing so.
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: Re: Church Growth
December 4 2002, 1:59 PM
Oh Man! How I was enjoying reading this dialogue, with the "exception" of the BONECRUSHER, until I got to this one. I CAN SEE THE RELEVANCE.
We live in a "REPUBLIC", how ever "democratic" it may be, and while the Laws of the government may allow us to "WORSHIP FREELY", "WHATEVER" and "HOWEVER" "WE CHOOSE", the "BIBLE" is much more specific. That, is where your "CONCERN" and "DESIRE" should reside.
Leo (no login) 199.173.224.20
Re: Church Growth
December 4 2002, 1:20 PM
Ken,
Actually, it was $50,000 and it was not the church members' money, but a gift from one anonymous person. Read below for the entire article taken straight from The Tennessean's website:
Church members to distribute $100 bills to needy
By BRAD SCHRADE
Staff Writer
More than a dozen churches in Middle Tennessee yesterday sent their congregants away with crisp $100 bills to spread through the community in acts of kindness over this holiday season.
All told, $50,000 was distributed to be given — no strings attached — to strangers who may be in need or neighbors who are down on their luck.
''The point of this is to plant seeds of kindness,'' said Rubel Shelly, minister at Woodmont Hills Church of Christ, who distributed the bills to his members.
The local effort is funded by an anonymous businessman who gave the money to Woodmont Hills, which is administering the program that involves about 15 churches of various denominations.
The idea started last year with the same anonymous donor giving $50,000, but the idea grew out of a similar effort at a California church. It was inspired by the movie Pay It Forward and by the biblical parable about investing one's talents to do good in the world.
Seeds of Kindness is a non-denominational effort in which congregants are supposed to give the donated money in the name of Jesus. There are no strings attached to the gifts; they are meant to be given over the next couple of months.
Shelly and church members say they feel slightly awkward about the media attention the program has drawn.
''This is not about this church,'' Shelly said.
Larry, who participated last year, said it had felt good to be able to give someone a gift. He didn't want to give his last name, he said, because he is only the vehicle for spreading someone else's gift of goodwill.
Larry gave his gift last year to a mother at a Kroger grocery store. She had three children, and the family appeared to be struggling. Larry decided God had placed her in his path.
''I kept my eyes open for a long time, and she was just put in my way,'' Larry said. ''I knew she was the one to give it to.''
The program has a Web site at www.seedsofkindness.com. The Web site asks individuals, churches or civic groups to join the ''share-the-wealth club'' if they wish.
''Seeds of Kindness is akin to an underground railroad of goodwill that operates quietly, out of sight, but effectively,'' the site reads. ''It puts into practice the maxim, 'If you don't care who gets the credit, the sky is the limit to what can be accomplished.' ''
Participants can post anonymous messages at the Web site describing the acts and how they helped someone else. One of the postings is from a Nashville elementary school principal who wrote that one of the gifts went to a boy and his sister who have little support at home.
''They come to school dirty and in ragged clothes,'' the principal wrote. ''We are purchasing a few pairs of underwear, shirts/blouses, pants and shoes. Kayla told our school counselor she doesn't have many crayons — those she has are all broken — the kind most of us throw away rather than fool with. This Christmas, she's going to have a BIG box of NEW crayons.''
How have you experienced the gift of giving?
This holiday season, The Tennessean will publish stories of Middle Tennesseans who have enriched their community with generosity. If you have a compelling story of how you, a neighbor, co-worker, classmate, friend or relative has experienced the gift of giving, send it to ''The Gift of Giving'' by fax, 259-8093, or e-mail, news-tips@tennessean.com. Be sure to include your name and phone number.
TOP | HOME | LOCAL NEWS | CUSTOMER SERVICES
SPORTS | BUSINESS NEWS | OPINION/LETTERS | ENTERTAINMENT
FEATURES | WEATHER | PHOTO GALLERY | OBITUARIES | CELEBRITIES
IN-DEPTH REPORTS | CLASSIFIEDS | EMPLOYMENT | SUBSCRIBE TO THE PAPER
CARS.COM | NEWHOME NETWORK.COM | APARTMENTS.COM
But it sounded like Rubel was giving it away and I assumed that it came from the members.
Wouldn't it be grand if it could be sent to demonstrated needs such as someone who has just had their house swept away or their family burried in mud?
I experience the joy of TARGETED giving and should do more. I am in the enraged pitts by the rise of TBN in the church and tithing to pay for our atonement. Or for paying for a building to be diverted to being a theater for holy entertainment.
Ken
(no login) 68.52.16.50
Re: Re: Church Growth
December 5 2002, 1:35 PM
After reading this Tennessean article, I have some comments and questions. Charity is a righteous thing. I absolutely believe in helping those who are in need, but why does this particular and large money distribution happen this time of the year? Is it because it's the time of year when the "world" is celebrating a heathen, pagan unholy day?
They say they are doing this in the name of Jesus, but did they ask Him first if that is a righteous thing to do, to perpetuate a false religion? The Mass of Christ (Christmas) has nothing to do with Jesus Christ, the Son of the true and living God. The Roman Catholic Pope Julius I invented this abomination, which is complete idolatry. Why are those who claim to be speaking "where the Bible speaks" and being silent "where the Bible is silent" (Sola Scriptura) involved in this heathen abomination? December 25th was already a sacred day in Rome long before Jesus Christ was born. It was celebrated as the birthday of Rome's Christ, Mithra.
And I'm sorry, but I cannot find any Biblical precedent for this type of giving. Non-denominational organizations do not mean "Christian" organizations. There is only one Christian organization and that is the Body of Christ. We are told not be in league with unbelievers. In fact, the Bible tells us that we are not even to "bid them God speed" if they bring a doctrine contrary to the Word of God.
Someone needs to take those rose-colored "feel good" glasses off, because it is obviously keeping one from seeing well enough to read one's Bible.
Contending for the faith.....Barb
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
“SINCE WE BEGAN OUR WORK TOGETHER [AT MADISON]”
December 3 2002, 4:18 PM
================================================
PREACHER POTPOURRI (MADISON MARCHER, 11.27.02):
================================================
Dr. C. Bruce White/Editor reports:
-----------------------------------------------------------
[The ThankSinging was great. Do we have a talented group of song leaders? {Keith Lancaster and friends, Kevin Dunnebacke, Robin Guidicy, Mark Spears, Ray Wilson, Jeff Sweet and Steve Stephens led our worship in a superb manner.} It is just the beginning of many activities that will have a variety of our members together…. It hardly seems possible that a year has come and gone since we began our work together. But, we begin our second year today. It has been an interesting year, but we know that the Lord has been at work among His people here. There is celebration in our hearts as we reflect on where we started and where we are now. We anticipate an even better year in 2003. There are so many opportunities and the “fields are white unto harvest.”]
================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
STATISTICALLY: “WHERE WE STARTED AND WHERE WE ARE NOW”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. White’s sermon on Sunday (12/01/02) dealt with one of the seven P’s in the life of the church -- the PAST. He stressed his point that Christians should be concerned with the PRESENT (another “P”), and should forget the PAST and not dwell on the PAST. He used Philippians 3:13 as the reference: “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before….” Was the writer speaking of the entire body (the church) or of the individual Christian in the body? The writer used the pronoun “I” in contrasting the past to the present or future.
The rest of the text in Philippians 3 states: “[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. [15] Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. [16] Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. [17] Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. [18] (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [19] Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) [20] For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [21] Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”
Dealing with the past, according to Dr. White, is a deterrent to church growth and development. His point really caught my attention in that he brags about and reflects on the achievements and “growth” of the Madison body in this PAST year, since he became the employed preacher. But yet, he resents any suggestion to bring up the glorious past of Madison, in conjunction with the ultimate disruptive intervention by CCM not too long ago, excepting, of course, the PAST year of his tenure.
Aside from doctrinal controversies, it’s time to take an honest look at some of the developments at Madison, in terms of the decline in membership and in finances relative to its goals and objectives. Keep in perspective that the CCM-motivated upheaval became apparent almost two (2) years ago, and notice the downward pattern in the financial figures, even considering the emphasis of fallacious tithing doctrine. The same can be said about the membership, especially in what’s labeled as the “traditional” group.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
============================================================
Figures for attendance in 2002 are not available, except that in recent months, it has ranged between 480 and 560 for the “traditional” group. The early service increases its attendance by about 100 more when the Tennessee Titans play in town. What’s significant has been the trend since April of 2001. (E=EARLY, L=SECOND, X=EXTENSION)
============================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The available facts and figures above are left to the reader for interpretation and analysis.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
NOTE: The HEALING SERVICE (now identified as “CALL TO PRAYER”) went on this past Sunday (12/01/02). It was announced beforehand that Joe Beam was to lead prayer after the invitation for gathering. The elders present were asked to come to the front first. It appeared that NO ONE came forward as elder Chris Gingles went ahead with the shepherd’s prayer. While it was decided that a plurality of elders be available, the “call for the elders” by ONE individual in privacy is being made a public spectacle. The “HEALING SERVICE” is here to stay (only in the contemporary service).
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
For a general review of the TITHING campaign experience in the last few months at Madison, the WORSHIP MUSICAL, and HEALING SERVICE, please refer to:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests – Continued on November 25 2002, 1:20 PM:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
================================================
UNANSWERED QUESTIONS RELATED TO INDEBTEDNESS AND TITHING
================================================
MUSIC: NON-ACAPELLA, INDUCED JOY, SELF-SERVING, MESSAGE NARROW
================================================
HEALING SERVICE (SORT OF) … ADJUSTMENT: IS NOW “CALL TO PRAYER”
================================================
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: “SINCE WE BEGAN OUR WORK TOGETHER [AT MADISON]” December 3 2002, 4:18 PM
December 9 2002, 2:02 PM
The HEALING SERVICE (recently identified as “CALL TO PRAYER”), not included in the 12/08/02 worship schedule for the contemporary worshipers, has been deactivated -- at least temporarily. You see … it was a charismatic imitation of the “healing” ministry that was “spontaneously” initiated by Robin Guidicy, unbeknownst or not to the eldership. Dr. White commented at some point in his sermon titled “Secret Religion” that it is very difficult to incorporate changes in the “church of Christ,” that this body is the most resistant and the least receptive to change. Hopefully, he meant in terms of IMPROVING UPON God’s will and direction for New Testament Christians. That should make us, as a body of believers, unique and distinctive, as well as non-conformist when it comes to doctrinal fallacies and secular pressures.
The scheme to include “other” needs besides physical healing in public, by labeling it as a “call to prayer” later on, just would not persuade the believers who should know better. The scheme simply cannot justify the claim of the charismatics that the public display of such an activity resembles the miraculous physical healings that occurred in the pre-church establishment era. Of course, the activity was somewhat modified in the contemporary assembly at Madison the following Sundays by having the elders present gather in front to extend the invitation. Without belaboring the point, the passage in James 5:13ff simply identifies the process as the individual Christian in need may call for the elders, not the other way around. Significantly, this is one individual at a time calling for the elders of the church, whether or not it is for the purpose of the elders being able to give sole attention to the individual. And for this reason, it is important that the elders provide the membership with means to contact them, e.g., by home or church phone. Regardless, this “personal” call upon the elders should not be, by any means, a public spectacle.
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 63.84.81.58
Re: since
December 9 2002, 7:32 PM
I am not suggesting guilt by association but I remember a Fax of Life where Rubel Shelly appealed to Machiavelli (informer of Hitler and Hegel) to explain why it was so hard to change people from THEIR views to YOUR superior views.
http://www.piney.com/FaxofLifeR2.html
Machiavelli noted that SECRET "navigating the winds of change" or Infiltrating and Diverting is tricky because:
---"This coolness arises partly from the fear of the opponents, who have the LAWS on their SIDE, and partly from the incredulity of men, who do not readily believe in new things until they have had a long experience of them." He was right!
Machiavelli quoted Heredotus noting the advice to Cyrus about how to treat the DEFEATED:
"Make them bring up their sons to cithern-playing (Kitharizein), singing (psallein), and shop-keeping (Hucksterism).
-----So wilt thou soon see them become WOMEN instead of men, and there will be no more fear of their revolting from thee."
Machiavelli noted that DEFEATING and RULING OVER rarerly works by prayer, therefore you have to rely on FORCE.
James Madison wrote that:
"There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, controlling its effects.
"Again, there are two methods of removing the cause of faction: the one,
by DESTROYING the liberty which is essential to its existence;
---the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.
"It could never be more truly said that of the first remedy that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires.
But it could not be a less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imports to fire its destructive agency.
"The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed." (James Madison, Number Ten, The Federalist Papers)
Do we worship or lament those who would try to IMPOSE a healing "environment" as a destabalizing RITUAL, find their "prayerful brinkmanship" getting slippery, and then BACK OFF and preach SAFE old church of Christ stuff from the Bible?
Are we to worship and honor and applaud a Lynn Anderson who laments that it took a decade or so to CHANGE his church to be able to SING during Lord's Supper to keep people's mind off Christ?
Sure, it's always going to be SLOW GOING splitting up a church just so the strange people can sing and clap! That is why the SECRET CHURCH has to be OUTED very carefully.
Plato said that you have to worry about the KIND of songs they introduce over a stable group because "changing the kinds of songs means that they INTEND to change the government."
Ken Sublett
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
SERMON: “SECRET RELIGION” and CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION AT MADISON
December 12 2002, 12:11 PM
==================================================
PREACHER POTPOURRI, “MADISON MARCHER” (December 4, 2002)
==================================================
Dr. C. Bruce White:
==================================================
[[[The level of praise that is generated in our assemblies is so inspiring. It takes a special talent to lead this church in such praise, and we are so blessed with the best this brotherhood has, Keith Lancaster…. The “Marcher” of last Sunday had a very useful list of activities for the holidays. It is worthy of being placed on the refrigerator door. We want everyone to participate in all the projects for Christmas.]]]
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MIXED SIGNALS: IS IT “WORSHIP LEADER” CALLING OR IS IT SONG LEADING?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In this past Sunday’s sermon [on 12/8/02] titled “Secret Religion,” Dr. White made the contrast between “SHOWTIME” and “SECRET” enactment in: (a) GIVING [Matt. 6:1-4]; (b) PRAYER [Matt. 6:5-15]; and (c) FASTING [Matt. 6:16-18]. He presented a very strong case when he concluded, “Disciples need more meditative life… Never get that personal relationship in church services … Sorry! PUBLIC assembly is great, but the real relationship with God is PRIVATE to the core.” I agree with that declaration on Sunday, which probably explains why beforehand (on 12/4/02, cf. Marcher) he felt compelled to give high praise for Keith Lancaster and his “special talent to lead this church in such praise [songs] … the best this brotherhood has….” (I’m wondering if the mention of “brotherhood” is in reference to the new and improved fellowship of Community Churches, which Mr. Lancaster fits right in.) That same conclusion probably explains, too, why he began his sermon by stating, “I feel inadequate after a praise like that … thank you, Keith.” Indeed, “thank you, Keith,” [first of all] because Dr. White was about to remind the congregation that “THE REAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD IS PRIVATE TO THE CORE.”
It has been my observation, in general, that references to expressions, e.g., “praise team” or “WORSHIP LEADER” or “MUSIC” have been less frequent. Even Dr. White’s references to “song leader” or “leading singing” instead of “WORSHIP LEADER” in his sermons do not go unnoticed. Perhaps, these are signs, good signs, that the leadership at Madison is making a concerted effort or attempt at restoring the real Madison congregation to its greatness and as a shining light in the “community” (no pun intended) and to the world. One question is this: how can we impress upon the designated WORSHIP LEADER that such a title or description is totally undeserved and misleading and unfair [to the preacher, elders, etc.]. How can the WORSHIP LEADER be persuaded to personally repudiate ownership of such a position or title? Just think of what WORSHIP encompasses!!! Singing is only one activity in the assembly, and by New Testament standards and definition, it (singing) is only ONE MEANS of teaching and admonishing one another. Praying or observance of the Lord’s Supper or the teaching or preaching of God’s word is one of other activities. It would seem unfair to the preacher, in this case, Dr. White, that he is not the WORSHIP LEADER. After all, he does a very important job according to Acts 20:7.
Is the WORSHIP LEADER too good to just be a song leader? Or does he have that insatiable desire to be able to “CALL” or lead the members to our Father’s throne in order to worship Him? John 14:6 says, “Jesus saith unto him, I AM THE WAY, the truth, and the life: NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER, BUT BY ME.” John 4:21-24 says, “Jesus saith … Ye worship ye know not what … But the hour cometh, and now is, WHEN THE TRUE WORSHIPPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
As a side note, here are some worship-related questions that need answers. Why is there no provision for children of a certain age group to go to Canaan’s land in the early assembly? Is this because most of the attendees in the early service are senior saints, but most of the young parents with children attend the contemporary service? And if there are children in that particular age group and with nowhere else to go, are they excused from the service? Are some of the Praise Team members in the traditional assembly to help with the singing of new Contemporary Christian Music?
One final suggestion: when is the format of the worship guide going to include the sermon in outline form once again? You may recall that in years past, space for the sermon outline in the worship guide was not a problem when both early and late “traditional” services had the same worship format. Having a sermon outline would definitely help the serious Bible learner follow the sermon being delivered. As you know, the power point presentation does an inadequate job of displaying a line of phrase, thought or idea AT A TIME. Thoughts are just disconnected and NOT coherent on the screen. Sorry!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
Some of the DECEMBER EVENTS relating to CHRISTMAS at Madison are as follows:
==================================================
DECEMBER 5: Christmas of Hope Dinner & Auction, Marriott Hotel, 6 p.m. auction, 7 p.m. dinner, $45 per person — Benefits Madison Children’s Home and Morning Star Sanctuary.
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 7: Breakfast With Santa presented by Creator’s Kids Preschool, 9–11 a.m., Fellowship Hall. Includes Home-cooked breakfast, pictures/videos with Santa, silent auction shopping, and games/crafts/face painting.
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 7: Christmas Sharing Party (Parents Night Out — given by the Children’s Ministry), 6–9 p.m. for babies through 6th grade. Cost is $1 for pizza and an unwrapped toy for the Toys and Joy toy drive. All children go to their departments except 5th & 6th grade — they go to the gym.
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 8: “TOYS FOR JOY” TOY DRIVE, over 550 children need our help this Christmas. If you don’t have time to shop, give a donation and the shopping will be done for you.
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 15: WINTERFEST (February 14-16, 2003) early-bird deadline for teens to sign up and pay discounted price of $87… This would make a great Christmas gift
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 15: MADISON’S SINGLES CHRISTMAS DINNER, 6 p.m., The Hancock House Bed and Breakfast, Gallatin, TN. Dinner is $16.50 per person. Will include a devotional and playing the “Dirty Santa” game (exchanging a Christmas ornament of $5 or less). Registration deadline December 8…
--------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER 22: CELEBRATION SERVICE, 6 P.M.
--------------------------------------------------
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION AT MADISON: PAGAN WORSHIP IN THE CHURCH?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So, is this another one of those pagan celebrations being observed and practiced at the Madison Church of Christ? What pagan practices are the responsible leaders of the church condoning and teaching the youth at Madison? Since the church is bombarded with pagan identities and rituals, shouldn’t the leaders try to take advantage of the opportunity and remedy the situation, such as in the observance of Christmas, by putting the emphasis more on the death, burial and resurrection of Christ than on His birth?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
Teressa (no login) 67.32.193.177
Celebration Service
December 12 2002, 2:03 PM
Hey Donnie,
Have you ever been to this so called "Pagan" service that you are reporting about? If not, consider your self invited as of now. If you are going to write about something...you at least need to attend it before you label it as "pagan".
Come on over on Dec. 22nd and we'll save a seat for you!
Teressa
P. B. Monroe (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Celebration Service
December 12 2002, 5:32 PM
Great point Teressa
How can you go pointing the finger and labeling something pagan before you have even been to it. I hope you aren't afraid to show up on Dec 22. You will be welcomed with loving arms and the compassion that Jesus taught about in his life and ministry. I know that has been the case for me when I have been there.
Paul B. Monroe
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Celebration Service (P.B. Monroe) December 12 2002, 5:32 PM
December 13 2002, 12:44 PM
Paul,
You offer nothing in defense of what you believe the church (as a spiritual body, not as a business, social or political organization) should not be participating in or associated with. Love and compassion should not be a matter of verbal expression, but should just be spontaneous and apparent to those around.
Donnie
Paul B. Monroe (no login) 167.64.47.80
Re: Re: Celebration Service (P.B. Monroe) December 12 2002, 5:32 PM
December 17 2002, 2:19 PM
Donnie,
You missed the point. Quit taking things out of context like you ever so try to do and be real. No need to stretch that which you don't know. I don't know you and you don't know me, but in regard to this idea of what a pagan is or a pagan service is, I do believe that it isn't something you would see at the Madison Church of Christ. I have been to several services in the past as well as several celebration services and haven't seen anything pagan about it. Until you go labeling something before you have been a part of it you should check it out. The last time I looked the word "pagan" meant heathen, person who is neither Christian, Jewish, etc... From what I am taking in here you are saying that the people who worship at Madison are a part of a pagan service. Thus meaning that you are judging them and saying they are not Christians.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Re: Re: Celebration Service (P.B. Monroe) December 17 2002, 2:19 PM
December 19 2002, 3:45 PM
Paul,
Just so I don’t miss the point and take things out of context, and just to make things easier for both of us and without even quoting the scriptures this time, let me just direct you to another thread quoting a couple of many articles on Christmas being of pagan origin. While the Madison church building is not sacred, what message is being delivered to members and visitors when the “church mall” and other places are indicative of the appearance of and participation in the pagan Christmas celebration?
Donnie
Paul B. Monroe (no login) 204.30.63.250
Re: Re: Re: Re: Celebration Service (P.B. Monroe) December 17 2002, 2:19 PM
December 21 2002, 7:27 PM
Donnie,
There is no reasoning with you. From what I see, you are very stubborn and set in your ways making no sense once again. Why should I have to quote scripture. I proved my point! You on the other hand are making me wonder. You are starting to be like Ol Man Sublett who totally diverts from making any sense whatsoever going over my head, and definitely over yours and many others. No need for me to waste my time reasoning with you cause it ain't workin. May God's mercy and compassion fall on you as you see the truth as God's word sees it
Paul B Monroe
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Re: Re: Re: Celebration Service (Paul B. Monroe) December 21 2002, 7:27 PM
December 25 2002, 5:19 AM
Paul,
I hardly expect Community Church movers and change agents and their followers to understand anything else but their own agenda, motives and interpretation. They are so preoccupied with their own ideas on improving upon God’s will for those who are without Christ, as well as for those in Christ. They have no respect for the scriptures and scriptural matters. It is apparent to me that you are on their side. It follows, then, that I am not making sense to you and Ken Sublett is not making sense to you because you’ve been brainwashed by the change advocates. CCM is on your mind. Listen to what you said, “Why should I have to quote scripture? I proved my point!” WHAT POINT, Paul?
==================================================~
Donnie
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Celebration Service (Teressa) December 12 2002, 2:03 PM
December 13 2002, 12:05 PM
Teressa,
You tried to make the “Celebration Service” on December 22nd an isolated case from the entire Christmas package. Try again. I did not mention the word “service” in that context. You did. The Madison Marcher did. Please review the list of activities scheduled as “December Events” in the Marcher and figure out for yourself the implication, or even just the suggestion, that the Madison congregation is involved and participating in this pagan-originated observance. But if you insist on your defense of the “Celebration Service” as NOT “pagan” service, that remains to be seen. True, we cannot always read the mind of your WORSHIP LEADER. But as a “leader,” if he “CALLS” the “regular” members to worship and directs his PRAISE TEAM to mainly sing for the congregation many of the “Christmas” songs (and ONLY during this time of the year), then, the INTENT is obviously pagan-oriented. If he mixes in non-Christmas songs, then it is deception. If there are no “Christmas” songs sung, then, perhaps it is some kind of celebration. But what CELEBRATION is it? We have a long journey on this earth. In my case, I will not be able to celebrate until I receive the promise of eternal life in heaven.
Please do not worry about saving a seat for me. There are so many empty pews these days; finding a pew even just for myself would not be a problem.
==========
Donnie
(no login) 216.248.160.132
just wondering; not intending to start anything
December 13 2002, 3:37 PM
Donnie:
I'm not trying to be hateful or anything; I just wanted to ask a question about your previous message. From the way I read it (and I may have just mis-read it; if I did, please correct me), if we sing Christmas songs around Christmas time at the Celebration Service, that would be paganism? And if we sing Christmas songs at the Celebration service but mix in a few of the regular hymns/praise songs, then it's deception? Most of the Christmas songs that I know of talk about the birth of our Savior; they don't bring to mind the idea of pagan worship. Sure, the holiday may have originated as a pagan celebration, but our society does not treat it as such. Just as the original tune to "A Mighty Fortress" was a bar song, that does not make "A Mighty Fortress" a drunken orgy song. I don't believe any church of Christ members or any denominational church member wants Christmas to be celebrated as a pagan holiday. Would you sing the song "Happy Birthday" at someone's funeral? That may seem like a harsh concept, but think about it. We sing Christmas songs around Christmas time because it reminds us of the virgin birth a little over 2000 years ago and the power of God. We don't regularly sing Christmas songs outside of December for the same reason.
The purpose of the praise team is to assist the congregation with singing parts. Do you remember the interim period when we didn't have a praise team? The singing did not sound as full and uplifting. Adding the extra slightly amplified voices to the mix helps people feel more comfortable and encourages them to sing out, even if they don't have the best voice in the world. Sure, other congregations use the praise team as the primary song leader(s). Some congregations choose to have their teams on stage, which I believe looks more like a concert than a worshiph service. By having them seated, less attention is drawn to them.
Sorry for the length of this response; to me, these are valid questions, and I look forward to your response.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: just wondering; not intending to start anything (Jeremy) December 13 2002, 3:37 PM
December 13 2002, 5:59 PM
Jeremy:
I seem to recall that the songs in the hymnal about the birth of Christ do not mention the word “Christmas.” I am glad for that as it limits and lessens the magnitude of controversy regarding the Christmas observance that, as we all seem to agree, is of pagan origin. The standard principle for singing in a spiritual gathering is, by New Testament standards, not to create MUSIC but rather to provide us with a means (which is singing) by which we can “teach and admonish one another through psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.” There is nothing wrong with singing about something that “teaches” us about Christ being sent to this world to take on human form. But the message must not stop there. The purpose for the birth of our Savior, regardless of its miraculous nature, would be in futility without connecting such birth and making it relevant to the all-significant divine purpose of saving mankind. If the song portrays that divine message, there is nothing wrong with it, and why can’t it be a SONG FOR ALL SEASONS? Certainly it can! (Keep in mind that I did not say “Christmas song.” The main idea is that while the song is about the birth of a SAVIOR, the emphasis MUST be on the word SAVIOR!). So, please don’t even make an attempt to compare this type of song with “A Mighty Fortress” or “Just As I Am.” And forget about what society thinks or demands. The church should be an influence to society. NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND!
I would really begin to question the intent of whatever this “celebration” is if it consisted of nothing but “Christmas” songs sung ONLY at “Christmas” time. That signals to me that that would be an issue of conformity and association with something pagan in its origin. That “the birth of Christ is not pagan” is a given. But “Christmas” is pagan. Also, why should Christians “celebrate” the birth of Christ? And if so, why not celebrate it as often as we do the sacrificial death of Christ? Huh? When we celebrate, don’t we do it over some accomplishment? I have news to share with you: I will celebrate when I’m in heaven because I have survived!
Yes, mixing “Christmas songs” with other hymns? Let’s qualify that with doing so at “Christmas” time ONLY … for the sake of our discussion. When you do that, it conveys the message that, “Yes, we as a church body observe Christmas somewhat … oh … but not really … because we do not want to give the wrong impression. We’ve got to sing real hymns, too.” That is deception. Having a little flavor of paganism in our spirituality!!!
Jeremy, there is no need to sing “Happy Birthday” to Jesus. I do have a greater fulfillment as I sing, “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” when I observe the Lord’s Supper. (And in regard to your defense of the “praise team,” please read the many, many discourses already posted.)
Thanks for the questions!
Donnie
(no login) 63.84.81.5
Just wandering
December 14 2002, 10:21 PM
RCH Lenski noted of Paul's warning about the "rising up to play" in 1 Cor 10 and Romans 10 that anything not explicitly devoted to Christ in worship is devoted to the worship of the devil or demons or the "starry host" as Stephen informs us of Mount Sinai. The BULL at Sinai or in the pulpit is a "demon" spirit and it can be tested only by Scripture.
Now Urban Legends are as old as rocks and Paul said in effect: "Fools love to be fooled."
"Luther also set his hand to the task of writing hymn melodies. It is generally acknowledged that at least THREE hymn tunes are from Luther's own pen. "Wir glauben all an einen Gott", "Ein feste Burg," and the Sanctus hymn from the German Mass, "Isaiah dem Propheten das geschah." Considering his own musical experience and training, and living at a time when the Meistersinger tradition prescribed that poet and tune writer were one and the same person, it would be strange had he not attempted to give musical expression to his own texts" (p. 26).
Luther repudiated MUSIC, faith without BAPTISM and the name LUTHERAN.
"The idea that Luther adapted his tune from a drinking song is probably from a misunderstanding of the tune in "bar form." It is easy to see here that "bar" is a technical term, because it is precisely the same word in German
"The name is derived from the medieval German term BAR, a poem consisting of three or more Gesaetze (i.e., stanzas), each of which is divided into two Stollen (section a) and an Absegang (section b). ... BAR form] found its way into the repertory of the troubadours ... and ultimately into that of the minnesingers and Meistersinger, who called it BAR and used it for nearly all their lyrical songs. It is equally common in the German ... Lutheran chorales and the various compositions based on them..
A Mighty Fortress is our God was not set to a tune by Luther!
A local congregation using "canned" music on the radio is a shrinking shell while another church whose HONEST music embarasses you is growing like crab grass. You can trap butterflies with honey but NOT those determined to be DISCIPLES. The singing you define has nothing to do with the Bible which has noting to do with MUSIC except by pagans, prostitutes and those trying to SHUT GOD'S MOUTH. If it is not FOR Christ and giving HEED to Him thorugh His "songs and sermons" it is by definition ANTI-CHRISTIAN.
Striving for a pleasant sound violates the statement of Jesus that worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit devoted to truth. It also violates all of the "singing" passages which have NOTHING to do with music and everything to do with TEACHING the INSPIRED WORD. Read honestly outside of our TRADITION Paul puts the singing and melody IN THE HEART where Jesus puts the only WORSHIP--one at a time into the Most Holy Place please
What you are talking about was defined by Albert Barnes as the LUST OF THE EARS. If it does not measure up to the Biblical LOUDLY SHOUTED direct commands of Lord Jesus Christ (the Spirit) through His Words then it is by Lenski's and Jesus' definition "Demon worship" or "just lying."
Ken sublett
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: Just wandering
December 16 2002, 12:16 PM
Mr. Sublett,
This article was a pleasure to read and extremely interesting. Thank you.
Larry
Joe McKnight (no login) 67.30.222.236
Pagan?
December 13 2002, 7:24 AM
Donnie:
Yes it is pagan and McoC is getting bolder and bolder with their practices, but not just McoC. The church of Christ was the last hold out, but even we are succumbing to our Catholic roots of uniting pagan things with Jesus' things to draw and bless the unchurched. It is all about money, power, and status, and when you can get the masses to feel good about what they are doing,then the sky is the limit.
The shock factor has worn off, and thier are untied and fling.
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: Pagan?
December 13 2002, 2:45 PM
Mr. Mcknight,
I did'nt comprehend the meaning of your last line. However, In my opinion, the rest of what you said is "Right On Target"!
The Death, Burial and Resurrection of Christ is what we celebrate every day. The birth of Christ is really irrelevant to our Spiritual lives.
If this time of year causes people to think more about Christ, there's nothing wrong with that. But, when the worship service is used as a celebration of Chist's Birth and/or the House of Worship is decorated with Christmas Symbols, that IS wrong, and "yes" that is pagan. Part of the definition of "Pagan" is "One who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods".
We are to Worship in Spirit and Truth. Christ's Birthday has nothing to do with these. Christmas is a carnal celebration based on a carnal event as well as a pagan holiday. "Spirituality" is the Gift that Christ gave us and Carnality is the opposite of this.
There's nothing wrong with singing songs about Christ's birth anytime, including the Christmas season, but it is wrong to devote the worship service to anything other than spirituality. The Christmas season is a time of "Joy", "Giving" and listen to the subject matter of this line: "peace on (EARTH)". How much more CARNAL and worldly can you get than that?
I love the Christmas Holiday no matter "Where" it came from. It obviously has a different meaning to everyone now than it did when it began. My understanding is that it originated in Rome before Jesus was even born.
Let's just keep our Earthly things separate from our Spiritual things.
I Corinthians 2:12 "For we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God."
Galatians 5:17(a & b) "For the Flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary to one another:"
In Humility and Christian Love,
Larry
Mark Mathews (no login) 170.190.46.64
Clarification, if possible
December 16 2002, 4:43 PM
Mr. Bennett,
For the most part you seem tomake a lot of sense inwhat you say on this site. I've read most of your posts and while I found some Iagreed with and some that I didn't, almost always you seem able to maintain a perspective of rationality. I appreciate that.
I did a double take, however, when I readyour recent post concerning the never-ending Christmas debate. You wrote, " Let's just keep our Earthly things separate from our Spiritual things."
I didn't think that was possible, given the fact that all things earthly were created by God above AND the fact that He commands us to "do whatever we do--all things-- to His glory" (paraphrased) My study leads me to believe that God does not allow us to lead a double life, either "we are for Him, or against Him." If these scriptures are to be believed, then it sounds to me as if God expects us to be 100% Christian. (Not to say He expects us to be 100% perfect--just 100% His)
Do you disagree?
M. Mathews
(no login) 170.143.252.250
Re: Clarification, if possible
December 17 2002, 12:09 PM
Mr. Mathews,
Thank you so much for the dialog.
"Let's just keep our Earthly things separate from our Spiritual things." Maybe I should have added, "in the worship service" to this phrase. That is what I was trying to say. Spirituality and Canality "are" two different things. Rather than go into detail here, I would direct you to the article, "So What's Wrong with a Praise Team" if you have not read it already. If you have, I would appreciate more dialog on the things that you did or did not agree with.
I do not disagree with anything you said except the statement that I was indicating that God allowed us to lead a double life. I am a miserable, lowly, sinful "human being", but I am a "Christian", who loves God and wants to please God, with a "Spirit" loved by God, in which the "Spirit" of God dwells.
Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."
Thanks again Mark. I look forward to more conversing.
Larry
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Pagan? (Joe McKnight) December 13 2002, 7:24 AM
December 13 2002, 4:19 PM
Joe,
The reason for the Madison body “getting bolder and bolder with their practices” is that the CCM combo (Community Church Movement, Charismatic Christianity Malignancy, Contemporary “Christian” [“Rock”] Music) has all together and altogether quite successfully intruded and interfered and driven away many of its faithful-to-the-unadulterated-gospel believers. True, the church of Christ, known to be the least amenable and the most resistant to man-devised schemes of bringing souls to Christ, ends up succumbing to these forces in some cases as well. But there are still many congregations still clinging to life. Hopefully, they won’t be learning it the hard way.
Speaking of Catholic roots and pagan “things” in the Roman Catholic Church, I know exactly what you’re speaking of because of my own previous religious background. Would you expect adult influences at Madison explaining to the children the pagan origin of what is now known as Christmas? Of course, not! Would you expect an explanation being given to the children that the Virgin Mary is not the “Mother of God” that the RCC would have you believe? Again, no! That what is more significant about the Savior than the miraculous human birth is His supreme sacrifice and suffering for mankind, death, burial and resurrection? Hopefully … and that should help.
It is time that leaders of congregations did serious soul-searching and comprehensive valuation of whither the church is going. What a grave responsibility that the leadership has –- the responsibility in regard to the souls of Christian believers! The responsibility of being true to the scriptures, and not letting CONSCIENCE be the guide!
Donnie
Wade Burroughs (no login) 170.190.46.64
Do you believe what you say?
December 16 2002, 5:00 PM
Mr. Cruz, you say that it is time for the elders to do some soul-searching...I would ask when is it NOT time for elders to do soul-searching? and members, too, for that matter?
You comment on their responsibility to lead according to scriptures, and not CONSCIENCE, which causes me to wonder which you are following. You certainly are shredding the scripture passages that have to do with the types of things we are supposed to dwell our thoughts on, (whatever things are pure,etc...) and the ones having to do with unity, and the ones concerning the correct manner to deal with sin, and the ones concerning gossip and slander, and the ones concerning being a stumbling block to weaker brothers. I know this because of what I read on this site. So is it YOUR conscience that is proding you to continue to participate in this mud-slinging?
It looks to this reader that you, and many others on this site, operate under a double standard. What's wrong for others to do is ok for you, as long as it promotes your rhetoric. That may work for blind sheep following egocentric leaders, but I believe the majority of society has enough education and enough intelligence to see through the smoke screen. What you people have going here is a pity party. And it is indeed, just that---a pity.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Do you believe what you say? (Wade Burroughs) December 16 2002, 5:00 PM
December 17 2002, 12:38 PM
Mr. Burroughs:
I am sorry for your lack of understanding of what ConcernedMembers is all about, of our stand for the truth and for unity, of our determination to deal with spiritual matters based only on the Holy Scripture, and of our persistence to abide by the scriptural principles upheld by the pioneers of the Restoration Movement. Simply put, we sincerely and honestly believe that there is NO place whatsoever for secular- or human-devised schemes and conscience-driven approaches to growth in the church of our Lord Jesus Christ. You are not making sense at all in asserting that we continue to participate in this “mud-slinging,” when you and I know that the church has been plagued by religious issues that have caused and are causing division in the brotherhood! You must first recognize and accept the fact that certain congregations have split because elders have RELINQUISHED their leadership role, have ENTRUSTED youthful and youth-oriented change agents and have given them PERMISSION to (instead of taking action against) the implementation of these schemes and devices. It is sad that the point has to be reached where a website, such as ConcernedMembers, has to step up, where church leaders have failed, and carry the burden of warning other congregations not to succumb to such forces.
I believe that the elders of Madison and other congregations should be aware by now that they have made decisions that seemed reasonable and practical at the time, but which are now, by hindsight, proven to be destructive, detrimental and divisive; that they would be taking other routes now if given the second chance to undo and redo certain church goals and objectives. I know that in Madison’s case, the leadership is being much more careful now than before so as not to make matters worse and make more and similar mistakes. I wouldn’t be surprised to know if they are at the moment seeking means and considering options to rectify RECENT problems.
Mr. Burroughs, YES! I do honestly believe what I say. Time is too precious to waste. I have deferred highly important personal goals and activities in the last several months to dedicate myself to this mission of helping make churches aware of “grievous wolves” that are subverting the truth and misdirecting Christians. I agree with you … “the majority of society has enough education and enough intelligence to see through the smoke screen” … depending on the level of visibility. However, such has emboldened and convinced the youth-oriented change agents that their paths are better and more sophisticated than the “old paths.” Newer is not necessarily better. In fact, newer things are deterrents and obstacles when it comes to keeping the purity and simplicity of the New Testament message. The New Testament church should be devoid of societal influences that would alter its image and mission. The church should be an influence for good in society. Society should not influence the church.
I hope I can convince you that the scriptural matters that we are dealing with here are not to be taken lightheartedly. And speaking of double standards, there is no double standard when it comes to the Holy Scripture and it being the ONLY GUIDE to spirituality. The truth of the matter is that all these recent movements have created the double standard.
==================
Donnie Cruz
Change Agent (no login) 24.116.163.107
You have GOT to be KIDDING!!!
December 17 2002, 10:57 PM
You think you are making a difference.....GET A GRIP! The ONLY purpose that this website serves is to further alienate Christians (in the CofC)from one another. Only a very MINISCULE portion of CofCers even know this website exists, and to most of those it is a JOKE!
I laugh almost uncontrollably when I read some of you reasonings and logic. Your interpretation is ONE interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Are you going to tell me that the "CofC" interpretation is the "right one" and that we have God's word interpreted 100% right....just answer that one yes or no.
CA
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: You have GOT to be KIDDING!!! (Change Agent) December 17 2002, 10:57 PM
December 18 2002, 5:46 PM
Oh, yeah? Keep your “very-MINISCULE”-in-making-a-difference argument to yourself. That is not the issue. Rather, it is how change agents like you have split congregations of the church and also what needs to be done to combat the situation. I’m sure you constantly REJOICE in your successes. This website cannot alienate Christians any further THAT IT ALREADY IS. In case you didn’t know, the New Testament church is still a “very MINISCULE” group when compared to the population (in billions) of this world. Is that God’s fault? Are you still going to laugh at that, too? One thing for SURE is that while God detests it, the DEVIL is LAUGHING VERY UNCONTROLLABY at what is happening to God’s church, and the DEVIL is thanking YOU and appreciating YOUR efforts.
The Holy Scripture does not need private interpretation. When it comes to God’s plan of salvation, it is straightforward. I believe it’s adding to God’s word that is complicating things. I must say the “CofC” interpretation [your reference] is closest to what the scriptures teach. Otherwise, you need to list the doctrinal beliefs and issues that are BOTHERING you and that you THINK the church of Christ is in error on, and then let this website know why. If you cannot do that, GET A GRIP!
Concerned follower of Christ (no login) 68.53.141.176
Re:re: You have GOT to be KIDDING
December 19 2002, 4:29 PM
Whew! The venom and anger from Donnie Cruz practically sizzles on the page this time. (I sure hope he doesn't carry any lethal weapons.)
(((((Oh, yeah? Keep your “very-MINISCULE”-in-making-a-difference argument to yourself. That is not the issue. Rather, it is how change agents like you have split congregations of the church and also what needs to be done to combat the situation. I’m sure you constantly REJOICE in your successes. This website cannot alienate Christians any further THAT IT ALREADY IS. ---))))
Who are YOU kidding if you think that paragraph would not alienate someone seeking to know Christ? I am as serious and sincere as I can be when I say that, as a believer baptized into the church of Christ, I do not nor do I personally know ANYONE who rejoices in disunity, back-biting or disruption of the body of Christ.
I do know for an absolute fact that this web site is being discussed on other web sites in appalling terms by believers in Christ who aren't involved in a church of Christ and the alienation stems from the judgmental and all-knowing attitudes of many who post here. You can kid yourselves that you are "right" all day long but the paragraph above (among many others) negates any good you may think you are doing. --- Talk about causing brothers to stumble......many are falling and they can't get up, not because they don't sing the right songs or have a Christmas tree in their building (not a temple or a shrine but a place to meet), but because they are being condemned into hell by those who claim to follow Christ but don't try to emulate the way he dealt with people in his time on earth AT ALL.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Whew! Venom and Anger: CHANGE AGENT Becomes a CONCERNED Follower of Christ
December 20 2002, 1:23 AM
Just the usual suspicion! At least in the Middle East, a terrorist group accepts responsibility for a bombing or an attack. But change agents continue to deny the fact that they DISRUPT and eventually ACQUIRE mega churches, RATHER THAN START their own. Result? Alienation of members, especially long-time and senior members! That’s where ALIENATION BEGINS and perpetuates. As to whether or not the once robust Madison Church of Christ has been completely transformed into a Saddleback-like Community Church, the fact is that such body has been disrupted and interfered with. LONG BEFORE ConcernedMembers was even conceived!
To you, CONCERNED CHANGE AGENT, please make up your mind. Which of your statements is accurate: (1) “Only a very MINISCULE portion of CofCers even know this website exists, and to most of those it is a JOKE!” or (2) “I do know for an absolute fact that this web site is being discussed on other web sites in appalling terms by believers in Christ who aren't involved in a church of Christ…”
Other comments: (1) I’ve never heard of this before –- a believer [the change agent] being “baptized into the church of Christ.” (2) As already mentioned, it is the change agents that initiate “disruption of the body of Christ” when they intrude and interfere with the affairs of a peaceful congregation –- change agents cause DISUNITY and the devil rejoices over this. (3) When the change agent accuses us of being “judgmental” and with “all-knowing attitudes” … that sounds more like a complex to cover up the feeling of inadequacy for lack of scriptural support for their deceptive “spirituality” schemes. (4) The change agent’s reference to brothers that “stumble” and fall and “can’t get up” are really the believers who are strong in the faith and who refuse to succumb to those forces, but who rather leave and seek fellowship somewhere else with those of kindred mind. One [disrupted] congregation’s loss is another [peaceful] congregation’s gain. (5) For the “right songs,” instead of the feel-good-clappy-hummy-thumpy-stumpy-rocky love-myself “praise” songs, please go to the hymnal or create your own songs based on the scriptures. (6) To know more about “a Christmas tree in their building,” please read the new thread on Christmas and its pagan origin.
Concerned Follower of Christ (no login) 68.53.141.176
Re:re:re: YOU have GOT to be KIDDING
December 20 2002, 11:20 AM
Donnie Cruz, you either make a lot of mistaken assumptions or, more probably, you deliberately mistake one person for another in order to perpetuate more of your myths. For the reader unaware, I am NOT the same poster as the one who signed "Change Agent."
I gave in against my better judgment and posted once, but won't make that mistake again after today. So here are some final words:
1. I am a baptized member of a Church of Christ congregation. I gave no facts about the body of Christ of which I am a member (please note I do not have the audacity to call it "my church.")
2. I do not have a feeling of inadequacy and I do study and know scripture but recognize the futility of verse by verse debate with this group.
3. Being on other web sites where topics are discussed with insight and intelligence is where I learned about this one and how someone found the ConcernedMembers website and could not believe what they were reading from "supposed" Christians. Sadly, they were exactly right.
I wonder (though I know you won't provide an answer) if you, yourself, ever try to minister to those "senior saints" you are always claiming to be concerned about. Somehow I doubt it.
Finally, the big difference between you and me is this: I KNOW I am bound for heaven through God's grace and not because of anything I can do, although I do my best to be obedient to his Word. I hope to help others get there, too. ******* You THINK you know the only path to get there and you don't care if anyone else goes or not. Now, THAT gives the devil plenty of reason to rejoice.
I hope that those who read this who have not accepted Christ or been added to His body of believers will seek Him through the Holy Bible and will find or be found by someone who really wants to spread the Good News of Jesus Christ and not be turned off by these modern-day Pharisees. None of the regular posters or the owners of this site seem "concerned" about winning souls to Christ but only about their own preferences and traditions.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Whew! Venom and Anger from a “CONCERNED Follower of Christ”
December 20 2002, 5:24 PM
I am not going to deny one way or the other about my (1) mistaken assumption about you or (2) my deliberately mistaking you for another. The fact is that I was NOT able to differentiate your attitude and behavior from that of a change agent: afraid to identify self; same emotional outburst when unable to provide scriptural basis in defense of certain beliefs; lack of respect for the scriptures and scriptural authority, thus, exercising too much freedom with “as anything goes is acceptable to God”; etc.
As it turned out, the venom and anger came from you. Sorry, but the objective of this website is for concerned members of the church of Christ at Madison to express matters that they are concerned about. Change agents do not care if a congregation that they have disrupted and subverted dwindles in membership so long as they get their mission accomplished. Conversion that you spoke of should be taking place out there in the community, not within an established congregation. I have news for you, too. Every Christian should have that blessed assurance of receiving the promised eternal life, I agree; but it is for those that persevere because God’s word says that we are to work out our own salvation (with “fear and trembling,” in fact). There’s more to grace (God’s part) in the life of a Christian, who must still have the continuing faith and good works (Heb. 5:8,9; James 2:17,18) to go along. Regarding the senior saints “alienated” by the change agents, my take is that by their fellowshipping with an undisrupted congregation somewhere else, they will do just fine. They are the ones that you, folks, are afraid to minister to. Change agents thrive best among the youth and at the same time have no regard and respect for the senior saints. That is the sad part of what the body of Christ, the church, is experiencing!
=================================================~
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 167.64.47.80
Re: Pagan?
December 17 2002, 2:10 PM
O long time no speak stranger! Where ya been hiding? I would advise thinking before you start calling stuff pagan around here, Joe. You do not attend Madison anymore and I don't even see how you can base your opinion on what a pagan service is by saying that celebrating the birth of our Lord and Savior is pagan. That is the plan as I have been told and heard. Until you have something useful to talk about I would appreciate it if you wouldn't judge stuff as pagan in your eyes when you have no clue in the first place what you are talking about.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON -- Continued
December 16 2002, 4:38 PM
==================================================
MORE “DECEMBER EVENTS,” Madison MARCHER, December 11, 2002
==================================================
DECEMBER 22: CELEBRATION SERVICE, 6 p.m., Auditorium (Everyone Meets Together)
DECEMBER 24-25: CHURCH OFFICES CLOSED –- No MARCHER this week
DECEMBER 25: NO [Wednesday] SERVICES TONIGHT – Home devotional will be provided.
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CONCERNS! CONCERNS! CONCERNS!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In case of personal crisis or an emergency call during times when church offices are closed, can a member still call 860-3208 to reach the Elders’ Conference Room, or send an e-mail to elders@madisoncofc.org? Madison’s website still does not have information available on the elders: getting-to-know-you type of information and contact (phone no., e-mail address, etc.).
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================
CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION: SERVICE AND DRAMA (per Worship Guide – 12.15.02)
==================================================
NOTE: Please bear with me, as it is impossible to display the format (font size, bold, italics, etc) of the “celebration” program that was printed on the contemporary page of the worship guide. But, here it is:
==================================================
- Celebration Service ----- Raise Your Voice ------------ Drama -------
December 22, 6:30 p.m.--- \./ \./ \./ \./ \./ ---- “The Christmas Gift”
----- Auditorium ----------!- -!- -!- -!- -! --------------------------
------------------------- / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ ----- Fellowship Meal ---
-- “Celebrate Jesus, -------------------------------- in the Mall ----
It’s a Wonderful Life” -----------------------------------------------
- Tom Haddon, speaker ----- CELEBRATE Jesus! ------ Please bring finger
--------------------------------------------------- foods and a 2 liter
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CHRISTMAS! CHRISTMAS! CHRISTMAS! A CHURCH CELEBRATION!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Based on the “Celebration Service” as advertised in the Worship Guide, is this a celebration of Jesus, born of the Virgin Mary [the “Mother of God” according to the gospel of the Roman Catholic Church]? If it’s a celebration of the “wonderful life” of Jesus, will that LIFE celebration extend through His suffering, death, burial and resurrection? If it does extend to His resurrection from the dead, what makes that occasion any more different and special than our observance of the Lord’s Supper on the first day of the week?
Besides an all-out singing of what’s been traditionally identified as “Christmas” songs, is the assembly going to sing this “birthday” song to Jesus:
------ Happy Birthday to you,
------ Happy Birthday to you,
------ Happy Birthday, dear Jesus;
------ Happy Birthday to you!
Remember that Tom Haddon is speaking. I’m sure he will not bring up the “jukebox” mystery. But there must be something mysterious about what is in the Christmas package. That will be all revealed in the DRAMA presentation, “The Christmas Gift.” Finally, looking ahead, what and when is the next pagan holiday celebration by the Madison Church of Christ?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Observations during this past Sunday’s contemporary services: Kevin Dunnebacke led singing wonderfully in the absence of Keith Lancaster, the WORSHIP LEADER of both of Madison’s “traditional” and “contemporary” services. As has been done on occasion, the praise songs were interspersed through the worship period –- that does help the senior saints and the physically disabled from having to stand up all through the MUSICAL creation and performances by the PRAISE TEAM of 5 or 6 praise songs non-stop. Singing was also MORE acapella as there was LESS induced and programmed handclapping when the also-very-talented Kevin led singing. A wonderful sign as there was LESS disturbance and turbulence, but MORE expression of reverence during singing!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz
(no login) 63.84.81.75
Christ MASS at Madison
December 17 2002, 3:32 PM
That is what it means: Christ MASS. Don't be surprized that they try to feed little baby Jesus with swine barbecue and then take the Lord's Supper.
As long as the enemies of Christ as FULL DEITY or wholly (Holy) Spirit God keep celebrating Him as a helpless infant they can MOUNT UP above Him and His Words which transmits Spirit and Life.
I told you about Twila Paris and the Oak Hills gang singing, Max Lucado rising above the hills, looking WAY DOWN to the "little" Jesus being nailed to the cross while the "audience" applauds just like the Warrior Musicians attacking Jesus long ago. Well, COSMIC CHRISTMAS which tags along with Rubel Shelly "baptizing Santa" and seeing the S.O.N. God as the S.U.N. god (including Saturn 666 and Apollo or Abaddon), has been made into DRAMA. "Drama works becaus we KNOW that it ISN'T TRUE."
=======================================
Here is an account of a horrified mother:
"My family and I just returned from Cosmic Christmas at a Baptist Church in Grandbury. I thank you for your insights on Christ being here BEFORE the world was.
"I went right to my bible when we returned home and read my daughter the book of John.
"I wanted her to be sure and know that was someones imagination not the real story.
"Max Lucado I hope is being aproached by christians who are telling him of the line he is walking.
"I don't know where to begin with what made the COSMIC CHRISTMAS disturbing. I was mostly concerned for the young eyes who may believe this to be true.
"I wished they weren't even there.
"It was like your article, Jesus was a light around Gods neck and the angle Gaberial had to get it past Satan to earth.
"I had heard about it through KVTT 91.7 radio. I listen to Tom Dooley in the morning. It's playing again at the Pantigo Bible Church of Arlington. You may have to call the radio station to find out for sure.
"My daughter was frightened of the demons. They surrounded a CART Mary was in on the way to Bethelem. I don't know what happened to her and Joseph's donkey. There was a BATTLE with the angles there, If I'd known what it was like before, if someone would have seen it first I wouldn't have gone.
"Max Lucado Is scary to me now. Sorry to take up so much time.
"You are correct in saying in the show that part of God offering his hand to Satan, was by far the most scary part.
"It totally pulled your insides because you felt it questioning our Father. That was a part where my daughter had her head burried under my arm, and I should have known to leave then. They say what if there was a battle in heaven, I say who are we to question or change Gods word. I love the book of Job. Actually I love the words of the bible whole heartedly.
"I wonder why when you go to church, they don't read longer passages to let Gods word speak for itself. You may use anything I've told you but yes I'd like you to leave my name off Thank you.
===================================================
The answer, dear lady, is that Jesus said that the JOB of the doctors of the Law was "to take away the key to knowledge." That is their job! That is why they get paid! That is why they cannot be BIG GUNS without selling their souls. If these enemies of Christ and the cross let the undiluted WORD get through then they will be fired. JESUS didn't die to be a perpetual infant: He died to be the ONE AND ONLY Teacher and Mediator because God looked around and THERE WAS NO MAN.
Celebrating the birthday of Jesus is Christ MASS. But the MAN Christ Jesus as FULL DEITY has returned to HIS throne to sit at the RIGHT of full deity. The Right Arm or Hand as prophesied of Jesus dows not allow TWO GODS on the throne. However, the Lucado, Shelly heresy of seeing Jesus as PAST TENSE with the Holy Spirit as His modern "replacement" is the MOTHER of Mother Goddess worship along with her Babylonian Triad little child who never grows up.
Blasphemy. Ken
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued
December 23 2002, 6:28 PM
The Madison Church of Christ’s WORSHIP LEADER, Keith Lancaster, was back to “CALL TO WORSHIP” once again the “regular” worshippers in both the first (“traditional”) and the contemporary services this past Sunday, 12/22/02. Just so nothing is misconstrued, please note Jesus’ birthday songs that were sung predominantly by Keith’s PRAISE TEAM for those assembled. (These are appropriately called Jesus’ birthday songs only because these were not sung during the other times of the year. In the past, many of these songs would be sung in the course of the year –- and that’s just fine -- but it’s been different this year. The CELEBRATION SERVICE organizers had waited for this occasion, and it did arrive on Christmas Eve for Madison.) The reader must know two things: (1) The TRADITIONAL group was SUBJECTED to singing all “CHRISTMAS” songs, just as the CONTEMPORARY group was; (2) While the leaders said that the MUSIC praise in the second service was great and inspiring, the PRAISE TEAM once again dominated the performances –- are the members just not accustomed to an all-out-Christmas-songs CAROLING in the worship assembly? Was “O Come, O Come Emmanuel” the intended song prior to the Communion? Why was the song “O Come All Ye Faithful” not sung during the invitation song, instead of “Softly and Tenderly,” huh? Oops, excuse me. I forgot that this was Christ’s Birthday Celebration!
==================================================
FIRST SERVICE … 8:00 A.M.
==================================================
O Come All Ye Faithful #464 ---------------- Keith Lancaster
Welcome/Love Feast ----------------------- John Cantrell
Hark The Herald Angels Sing #202
Silent Night #577
Prayer ------------------------------------- Bill Tomlinson
O Come, O Come Emmanuel #489
Communion -------------------------------- Buck Dozier
Joy To The World #376
“The Last Thing We Needed Was a Baby” --- C. Bruce White
Softly And Tenderly #454 [Invitation]
Contribution ------------------------------- John Broadway
Angels We Have Heard On High
Family Matters ----------------------------- Jerry Sherrill
Shepherd’s Prayer -------------------------- Ken Rice
O Beautiful Star of Bethlehem P&W 27
-------- Elders on Duty: John Broadway and Ken Rice -----------
==================================================
==================================================
SECOND SERVICE … 10:30 A.M.
==================================================
O Come All Ye Faithful #464 ---------------- Keith Lancaster
Welcome ---------------------------------- Chris Gingles
Hark The Herald Angels Sing #202
Silent Night #577
Prayer ------------------------------------- Ron Gatlin
O Come, O Come Emmanuel #489
Communion -------------------------------- Carl Wade
To Canaan’s Land #694 (for children in age group)
Love Feast
Joy To The World #376
“The Last Thing We Needed Was a Baby” --- C. Bruce White
Softly And Tenderly #454 [Invitation]
Contribution -------------------------------- Mike Hart
Angels We Have Heard On High
Family Matters ----------------------------- Tory Tredway
Shepherd’s Prayer -------------------------- John Broadway
O Beautiful Star of Bethlehem P&W 27
-------- Elders on Duty: John Broadway and Ken Rice --------------
==================================================
==================================================
CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION: SERVICE AND DRAMA (per Worship Guide – 12.22.02)
The “celebration” program that was printed on the contemporary page of the worship guide. ==================================================
- Celebration Service ----- Raise Your Voice ------------ Drama -------
----Tonight, 6 p.m. ----- \./ \./ \./ \./ \./ ---- “The Christmas Gift”
----- Auditorium ----------!- -!- -!- -!- -! --------------------------
------------------------- / \ / \ / \ / \ / \ ----- Fellowship Meal ---
-- “Celebrate Jesus, -------------------------------- in the Mall ----
It’s a Wonderful Life” -----------------------------------------------
- Tom Haddon, speaker ----- CELEBRATE Jesus! ------ Please bring finger
--------------------------------------------------- foods and a 2 liter
==================================================
==================================================
MERRIEST OF CHRISTMAS, “JOY TO THE WORLD” FROM C. BRUCE WHITE
Madison MARCHER, December 18, 2002
==================================================
Dear Brethren,
On behalf of the entire staff of the Madison church of Christ, I wish you and yours the merriest of Christmases and the happiest New Year.
May God share with each of you a measure of joy and peace that will bring celebration to your life.
We are a blessed people, endowed with so much of God’s bounty. It is difficult to even imagine how blessed we are until you see the plight of so many in this world.
Let us praise the Lord during this season of sharing and giving for all that He is and does for us. Stop and reflect with your family on how thankful we must be.
Let’s all pray for peace and good will among men. Let’s enjoy our families and friends. Let’s love the Lord and His church as never before in 2003.
Joy to all,
C. Bruce White
---------------------------- JOY TO THE WORLD -------------------------------
==================================================
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the contemporary service, there was no doubt that the main emphasis was on Jesus’ birthday celebration. The songs, the sermon, the remarks made even prior to the Communion! Very little was said in reference to the death and suffering and resurrection of Christ. There’s nothing else to say as something must be left to your imagination. Christians, you be the JUDGE as to whether or not Madison as a CONGREGATION of New Testament believers has succumbed and has “PARTICIPATED BY ASSOCIATION” in this pagan- or Catholic-originated Christmas celebration!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
==================================================~
Donnie Cruz
Evan (no login) 204.30.52.213
Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued
December 24 2002, 1:43 AM
I beg your pardon Donnie Cruz,
Leaving out the death burial and resurrenction? Were you there in time for communion yesterday? I was unable to be there. Carl Wade emphasized it during his sermon according to what I was told. He even had a powerpoint presentation according to what I was told too. I was wondering by chance did you get to make it to the Celebration Service (or that so called "Pagan Service" as you guys here like to refer to it as)? I was not because I had some plans that kept me from getting out there. If so please fill me in on what happened Mr Cruz. Thanks
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 24 2002, 1:43 AM
December 25 2002, 5:24 AM
Evan,
I did not say, “leaving out the death, burial and resurrection.” What I said was that “VERY LITTLE was said in reference…” because “the MAIN EMPHASIS was on Jesus’ BIRTHDAY celebration” in the songs, in the sermon, in “the remarks made even PRIOR TO the communion.” By the way, you should have deduced from that that I did partake the Lord’s Supper. (Hopefully, despite the very lengthy comments about the birth of Jesus, my own mind was able to focus on His suffering and sacrifice on the cross.) Unless my vision was very limited and my hearing really impaired, it was Bruce White, not Carl Wade, who delivered the sermon. (The use of a power point presentation to a supposedly mature congregation is usually an added insult to the believers, just as the use of Keith’s PRAISE TEAM to perform and sing FOR the congregation is an insult.)
I had no reason to participate in the so-called CELEBRATION SERVICE. I was certain it would be just an extension of what transpired in the morning services. The celebration organizers would hardly acknowledge that there’s no evidence that December 25 was the actual birth date of Jesus. Much less expect them to have a valid explanation that Christmas as a pagan observance has officially begun [i.e., this year, in 2002] as a Madison Church of Christ tradition? The Roman Catholic Church and Pope John Paul II have just gladly welcomed another non-Catholic body to the fold! You see … I don’t recall a CELEBRATION SERVICE of this magnitude in 2001, about the time when Dr. Bruce White was employed as the preacher.
==================================================~
Donnie Cruz
Evan (no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 24 2002, 1:43 AM
December 26 2002, 2:46 PM
Donnie,
My O my you need to examine yourself and quit trying to say that people are wrong for freely worshipping God the way that they choose to. Nothing is wrong at all with reflecting on the life of Jesus at Christmas time. We reflect on his life, death, burial, resurrection and ministry everytime we gather to worship and hopefully every day we live. However I am as guilty as anyone in not giving it all over to Him as much as I should because I am a sinner and make mistakes.
Evan
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 26 2002, 2:46 PM
December 26 2002, 4:56 PM
Evan,
Perhaps you need to help the leadership at Madison examine itself. Yes, it is wonderful to reflect on Christ’s LIFE, death, burial and resurrection CONSTANTLY! But to reflect on the “HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Jesus” CELEBRATION … ONLY, ONLY AND ONLY on a pagan-designated day is endorsing WHAT? What kind of an image is a New Testament church trying to portray by participating in and associating with a pagan-originated activity?
“My O my,” dear Evan! Please remind the leaders at Madison of not only the evil of PARTICIPATING in pagan activities, but also of the APPEARANCE of evil in ASSOCIATING with pagan activities! The church is also about Christianity versus paganism! You cannot have it both ways and expect compatibility. As the saying goes, “Don’t drink and drive.” “Booze it and lose it.” Let me remind you that I am not condemning the people, as it is not their fault when they are exposed or subjected to being “unequally yoked” with the pagans. It is the activity or the participation thereof, [not] STUPID!
Re: Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 26 2002, 2:46 PM
December 26 2002, 5:36 PM
Donnie
If you are not comfortable or happy with the way things are going at Madison why haven't you gone somewhere else. I am not trying to run you off from Madison but frm the posts that I have read it sounds like you are condemning those who worship freely at Madison. Think back to the days of Ira North at Madison. I don't know how old you are or if you were around then or not but in my opinion Ira was one of the most firm and stern men I know. By that I mean, he wasn't afraid to speak his mind on things. He was open to change...as long as it was biblical. And if he were alive today I think that he would be content and peaceful amidst the fury of hatred that has been going on and would have handled the transition in a more positive manner than any body else could have done. But Bruce, from what I have heard has brought a sense of healing through his compassion and heart that came just at the right time I do believe. Whether you say Christmas is a pagan holiday or not I don't care. In my opinion it isn't. We don't know the actual birthday as you put it of Christ but we do know that he still lives today in those who strive to devote their lives to him through service. Are you at all in anyway involved with any of the ministries at Madison? Just curious, when I was there I did the best I could with the resources I had to find a way to help others in need. May you continue to find that peace as you serve Him, Evan
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 26 2002, 5:36 PM
December 26 2002, 6:23 PM
Evan,
You really shouldn’t be speed-reading posts that are serious in nature. If you don’t mind rereading my earlier post and note the “condemning” part, please do so! If not, let me restate one more time: I am not condemning the people; it is rather the pagan activity that your self-designated WORSHIP LEADER and CELEBRATION SERVICE organizers are subjecting Christians to participate in.
Not comfortable or happy, did you say? That is not the problem. The real problem is that you, folks, are too eager to change and transition for any reason and at any cost. Have you heard of “TRYING TO IMPROVE UPON GOD’S WILL FOR BELIEVERS”? I guess, you now have! That is exactly what CCM change advocates are desirous to do on their own volition without God’s permission or blessing. Yes, change is fine when it is biblical. And what is biblical about participating in a pagan-originated activity? You know, Evan, we can still worship God without the added special feature of paganism injected into the process. Why can’t we leave it at that? Unnecessary change, designed to create problems and issues, such as enhancing worship even with just a little pagan flavor, is disastrous and should be avoided if it can be helped. In this instance, it can be helped.
Please don’t ask me about my ministries. I’ve been questioned that many times before. As I have said many times, I have my own unheralded ministries, the kinds that I do for the Lord without the knowledge of civilization. It is your prerogative to be just like those described in the Bible who enjoy the pleasure of letting the world know how they pray in public!
May you continue to study the Holy Scripture and seek the truth therein. Avoid making up stuff and call it “ordained by God.”
Re: Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 26 2002, 5:36 PM
December 26 2002, 7:43 PM
I apologize for misunderstanding you in that earlier post but don't agree with you as to your reference to what is going on at Madison as pagan. I do continually study the scriptures and see things for what they are worth to the best of my knowledge. You will no longer see me waste my time on this site because I have better things to do with it.
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: Re: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE AT MADISON –- Continued December 26 2002, 7:43 PM
December 27 2002, 6:32 PM
When the concept of humanity “TRYING TO IMPROVE UPON GOD’S WILL FOR BELIEVERS” is brought to the consciousness of the Community Church agents and their followers, it challenges them and causes them to flee and seek refuge somewhere else. The main reason is that they are unwilling to accept the simple truth that is revealed in the scriptures. They will rationalize to the nth degree and find it so convenient to just make a statement that what the Bible does not condemn or is silent about is right and permitted by God.
In your continual study of the scriptures, from the book of Acts through Revelation, have you found anything about Christ’s birthday celebration? That His birth saves mankind? Or have your found, instead, voluminous references to the suffering, death, burial and resurrection of Christ; baptism, grace, faith, hope of eternal life, heaven, etc.?
================================================~
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
“HAPPY BIRTHDAY” TO JESUS IN SUGGESTED FAMILY DEVOTIONAL ON DEC. 25
December 25 2002, 5:29 AM
Since there is no Wednesday evening church gathering on December 25, the suggested FAMILY DEVOTIONAL is substituted for it. What follows is the devotional guide, which would probably be the same worship guide if there were such a church gathering. Again, as you will notice, the emphasis is on the birth of Jesus, which pagan and Catholic observers would have you believe as having occurred on the 25th of December. CONTRAST it with another FAMILY DEVOTIONAL guide for January 1st as a POST-CHRISTMAS substitute for another Wednesday [New Year holiday] church gathering.
==================================================
FAMILY DEVOTIONAL [FOR CHRISTMAS DAY, WEDNESDAY] DECEMBER 25, 2002
==================================================
SONGS:
--------- Silent Night
--------- God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen
--------- O Holy Night
--------- O Little Town of Bethlehem
--------- Away in a Manger
--------- Joy to the World
SCRIPTURE: Luke 2:1-20
Begin with SONGS
Read SCRIPTURE
Explain that we have no record of the exact date of Jesus’ birth, but the world has their mind on the birth of Jesus today, and we want to remember His birth, too….
Sing HAPPY BIRTHDAY to Jesus.
Sing another song from the list.
Enjoy family time around the tree!
--------------------------------------------------
……………. JOY TO THE WORLD …………….
--------------------------------------------------
==================================================
==================================================
FAMILY DEVOTIONAL [NEW YEAR’S DAY] JANUARY 1, 2003
==================================================
SONGS:
--------- Take My Life and Let It Be
--------- I Am Thine, O Lord
--------- Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone
--------- None of Self and All of Thee
--------- I Have Decided to Follow Jesus
--------- Seek Ye First
Read Romans 12 individually and write down things that come to mind for making your Christian life more committed….
--------------------------------------------------
……….. HAVE A WONDERFUL NEW YEAR! ………..
--------------------------------------------------
==================================================~
Donnie Cruz
Remaining Anonymous (no login) 207.190.64.113
Re: “HAPPY BIRTHDAY” TO JESUS IN SUGGESTED FAMILY DEVOTIONAL ON DEC. 25
December 25 2002, 10:45 PM
Thanks to all of those who stand for the PURE TRUTH on this site. It is about time that people in the Church of Christ recognize paganism for what it really is! I applaud such eagerness to keep celebrations such as Christmas, out of the services of the church, for obviously they are pagan to the core.
While we are speaking of pagan customs and traditions, I feel I need to point out also where we are inconsistent. If I remember correctly, many times the Madison Church of Christ and other churches host banquets at Valentine's Day. They are called Sweetheart Banquet's, Valentine's Day Banquets, or other such names. This tradition and celebration comes right from the pagan world as well. I have seen church fellowship halls decorated with hearts and cupids (cupid was a god). Such an abomination! I wonder how we have missed the mark so egregiously on that one. Christians, young and old alike are being duped into believing that celebrating Valentine's day is okay, but my friends, IT IS NOT!!! Such celebrations come right out of the same pagan and catholic practices from which Christmas comes. Why, oh why hasn't someone noticed and done their research on it.
And what about Halloween? Most churches don't have Halloween parties anymore, but some do have Fall Carnivals or Fall Festivals, etc. But, call it what you want, it is still a celebration of HALLOWEEN!
While we are on the subject of paganism, I want to point out a tragic error that has befallen many churches for centuries. While most would say that a building is just a building, I maintain that we don't want to be associated with anything pagan and that some of the structures we place on our church buildings are symbols of pagan worship. The one symbol I have in mind is the STEEPLE. Many church of christ buildings have steeples, and they are considered nothing more than a decoration. Yet, if the history of the steeple is researched, it predates christianity and goes back to the days of the Ashterah Poles and the worship of Baal and Molech (although I don't agree with the Jehovah's witnesses, that is the reason NONE of their meeting houses have steeples). You can say thin is extreme, but I tell you, it IS the truth. The steeple is an adaptation of a pagan worship symbol - a SEXUAL pagan worship symbol at that. Do yourselves a favor and research it. It's simple to do on the internet.
Since paganism is such a concern, we MUST rid the church of any association with it, even if it means taking every steeple off of every church of christ church building in the world. We cannot afford to be associated with such vile idolatry. Musical leaders, observing Christmas, clapping, observing Valentine's Day (and other holidays), and steeples all fit into the same category. It is absoloutely necessary that we be very consistent in applying the scriptures in this area. If you are worshipping in a building that has a steeple on it, even if the abomination has been there for 100 years, even if it was paid for by beloves member of the church, it is still pagan idolatry, and you have the duty to insist that it be removed! The reputation of the church is at stake, and maybe even your own soul's salvation because of the mixing of pagan/catholic traditions with New Testament doctrine. I would not want to stand before God on judgement having this knowledge and having done nothing about it. It is time for all of us who oppose such practices as praise teams, christmas celebrations, and the like to stand against ANY hint of paganism in the church, no matter the cost. WE MUST FIGHT FOR THE TRUTH!!!
(no login) 63.84.81.108
Happy Birthday
December 26 2002, 12:05 PM
So, you are digging out of your burrow and speaking holy truth. You are absolutely right on all points, but I think that it is a falsehood to suggest that the Valentine's thing was ever done as AN ACT OF WORSHIP to lead the people into the presence of God. You might want to see if Madison did that. At one of our's, we once worshiped a Minnie Pearl look-a-like but we didn't endow her with supernatural power.
Steeples are phallic symbols. They are the symbols of today's of PSEUDO-MASCULINE PRIDE. I remember one of those charismatic churches claiming that OUR'S is 5 feet taller (longer) than the next longest one in Nashville. Whether you are awake with your clothes with you or not phallic symbols PROJECT violence toward a holy God Yehweh and he hated them when ERRECTED. If you don't CAST THEM DOWN you violate many direct commands.
"One sunny autumn day in 1989, the rev. J. David Davis and about 15 of his flock took down the steeple of the Emmanuel Baptist Church and carted it off to the dump. They had decided it was a pagan fertility symbol that had no business being on a house of worship...So after the steeple came down, Mr. Davis and Emmanuel's congregation came in for some abuse, as unbelievers and worse." (Wall Street Journal, March 20, 1991).
"Once upon a time, Sunday mornings at Emmanuel featured HYMNS and the hellfire PREACHING of the stocky, bearded Mr. Davis. Now the time is spent in discussion—with NO MUSIC, no PRAYERS (led), no SERMON." (WSJ, 3/20/1991) Wall Street Journal (this was in Marysville, TN or that area)
He has restored the ASSEMBLY not named after Kirke the Babylonian whore: your's is still pagan and unrestored.
"From a religious as well as a cultural point of view the Israelites came under Canaanite influence after their immigration from Palestine: they were attracted by the ancient Canaanite cult of Baal. Holy places on mountain-tops, sacred stones and stone columns, trees and springs were among the locations in which they sought God. Of course, they said that in this way they were serving the God of Israel, but their forms of worship were indisputably those of the Canaanite God Baal... The "God of Moses seemed to have been forgotten." (Jirku, Anton, The World of the Bible, World Publishing, p. 75)
"When the Israelites mixed heathen worship into their religions in the days of Ezekiel, they ERECTED an 'image of jealousy in the entry' of the temple (Ezekiel 8:5). This image was probably an obelisk, the symbol of the phallus, for (as Schofield says) they were 'given over to phallic cults.' Placing an obelisk at the entrance of a heathen temple was, apparently, not an uncommon practice at the time. One stood at the entrance of the temple of Tum and another in front of the temple of Hathor, the 'abode of Horus' (Tammuz)." (woodrow, p. 40).
Now, that you have publically confessed, Anymous, you are duty bound to lead the MALES to take down their private parts: ignorance is no excues.
Isn't it part of the cult of mind control arrogance to even suggest a LITURGY for observing Cosmic Christmas at home? Huh? Huh?
Ken Sublett
Remaining Anonymous (no login) 207.190.67.96
Re: Happy Birthday
December 27 2002, 2:08 PM
Brother Sublett,
I thought I was helping your cause. From the tone of your response, it almost seems like you are taking me to task. If I am wrong about that then I do stand corrected.
As to my point about Valentine's Day, I was merely pointing out that the celebration of Valentine's Day stems from a pagan religious tradition. I took some time to look up historical information after I saw your post and what I found was that the Valentines Day celebrations can be traced back to a pagan Roman celebration comemorating young men's rite of passage to the god Lupercos. In the middle of February, the young men would draw the names of teenage girls from a box and the young girl would then be assigned to that young man as his sexual partner for a year. The ROMAN CATHOLIC church christianized the holiday by making it a tribute to the patron saint of love St. Valentine, who lived in the 270's a.d. The entire history is to lengthy to record here, but I think I've given enough of it that we could conclude that any celebration of this day by any group within a church, even if the observance has nothing to do with the original roots of the day, would still be bringing pagan traditions into the life of the church, even though it's not necessarily brought into the worship. Otherwise, if a celebration of St. Valentine's day with a banquet, or "Minnie Pearl," or anything else, is okay for a church to engage in, then it would have to be okay for a church to celebrate Christmas as well. That obviously is not an acceptable position to stand on, because as you (and I) have said, Christmas has it's roots in pagan and Catholic traditions. So does Valentine's Day, and many other celebrations that Christians engage in. Surely, if it is wrong for the church to celebrate Christmas (as has been so capably pointed out), then it is just as wrong for the church to celebrate Valentine's Day. Whether a celebration occurs at 10:00 on Sunday morning in the auditorium or at 8:00 on a Tuesday night in the Fellowship Hall, Family Life Center or some other scripturally questionable area of the building, it is still the church gathering.
I am reminded of the passage in the Bible that says "Abstain from the VERY appearance of evil." How we have neglected that one in saying that one pagan holiday is okay to celebrate while another one is not. Christians are to avoid ANY and ALL appearances of evil - anything that could be associated with traditions other than those laid out in God's Holy Word. Surely Valentine's Day would fall into this category as well, as would observing any other man-made holidays. The Bible is very clear that we are to gather to remember the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord, to encourage and uplift each other, to pray, to give of our means (don't take me to task on tithing, that is not my point) and to teach each other from the Word. God has been very specific about what he wants us to do. We must not stray from that, nor should we add anything to it. God means what he says and what I think or what you think matters very little, it's what God's Word says that matters. Are we going to go by it in all things or just in matters that we want to obey? If we are to follow the Lord in everything, then we must not be guilty any more of being associated with anything that has roots in pagan or catholic worship and traditions. That would include Christmas, Halloween, Valentine's Day, All Saints Day, Easter, Pentecost, steeples on churches, prayer altars, etc. Let's look at the Bible and try to see it GOD'S way and not be inconsistent in our application of His word.
Thank you for reinforcing the scriptural principle that a congregation of believers has the responsibility to try and avoid affiliating itself with paganism. It is becoming more and more apparent that elders are losing control, as they shepherd the flock, by allowing youthful change agents to offer and provide for socially pagan activities, in RELIGIOUS settings, that lead to New Testament Christianity being “unequally yoked” with paganism. Just because we have the responsibility of converting pagans and non-believers to Christ and His cause does not mean that we should compromise our Christian liberties by participating in their activities. As we commonly believe that God hates sin but loves the sinner enough to offer redemption through the blood of Christ, we as Christians can be IN THIS WORLD and interact and mingle with the pagans without being OF THIS WORLD or participating in pagan practices.
Since a Valentine’s Day celebration can be done [and is being done anyway] as an OUTSIDE-THE-CHURCH SOCIAL activity or observance, then there is absolutely no reason for that to be associated with or be made into a religious or church activity, worship or not. Such a traditional and social activity undeniably involves Christian couples, and I have no personal objection to their “social” participation so long as such a social activity [pagan-originated or not] is done in a non-religious setting. Even the APPEARANCE of it as being a RELIGIOUS observance must be taken into consideration. Therefore, the key element in this particular social event is the setting or environment in which the activity is practiced or observed. The use of one big classroom or the auditorium in the church building as the only means for a gathering of Christian “couples” for this purpose, in my opinion, would not necessarily suggest giving heed to pagan participation that is related to what the church does as a body. Hopefully, this is not a congregational-participating affair. And it is no different than when the church building is used for some community-related activity as a central location for distributing goods to the needy. But since even the APPEARANCE of pagan participation can be crucial in this situation, it is my suggestion that this “pagan” tradition be observed somewhere else. If it must be done in the church building, which is not at all sacred, then, the objective should be made clear that it is NOT a church-related activity.
Let’s give the Madison Church of Christ the benefit at this stage. Let us not be too hard on those youthful Community Church leaders and movers who are in control. Uh-uh. But I seem to recall that Madison already has something planned in regard to this event. Uh-oh. Yes, brother Sublett, we will follow up on this … to see if the young change agents at MCC have been given permission by the elders (if they have even asked) and will go as far as making this as some kind of “another” CELEBRATION SERVICE. Remember that it has recently experienced:
(a) The CHRISTMAS WORSHIP services (with an all-Christmas PRAISE MUSIC in both the “traditional” 8:00 and the 10:30 contemporary assemblies on Sunday;
(b) The special “Christmas” CELEBRATION SERVICE (with a DRAMA presentation called “A Christmas Gift” delivered to a supposedly MATURE congregation) at 6:00 Sunday evening;
(c) The suggested FAMILY DEVOTIONAL for CHRISTMAS DAY (Wednesday, December 25), consisting of singing 6 Christmas songs sung ONLY during this Christmas week, singing “Happy Birthday” to Jesus, and enjoying family time AROUND THE CHRISTMAS TREE.
Again, thank you for pointing out that the church is not about pagan participation. The church leaders should pay special attention to such matters so as not to let things get out of control by allowing outsiders inject secular (or pagan) matters into church activities, and calling them church-related activities, without regard for some serious repercussion or adverse effect.
Re: “HAPPY BIRTHDAY” TO JESUS IN SUGGESTED FAMILY DEVOTIONAL ON DEC. 25 (12.25.02 10:45 PM
December 26 2002, 1:05 PM
Even though whatever is left of the dwindling traditional group of the Madison body has been SUBJECTED to PARTICIPATING in the “Happy Birthday to Jesus” Celebration Service during this month of December, there’s still good news among churches of Christ. (By the way, again as a constant reminder, the scheme of identifying the “contemporary” from the “traditional” group of worshippers that the leadership of the MCC has devised is DIVISIVE -- it is NOT “UNITY IN DIVERSITY” at all that the leadership claims and tries to project. I have maintained all along that there are many New Testament-abiding citizens of the kingdom who still attend the contemporary assembly, and even the attendance in this gathering continues to decline. Things are getting out of control, especially when the eldership fails to assert its leadership and direction for the congregation by allowing CCM advocates to govern many aspects of the church activities.)
The good news is that “an overwhelming majority of churches of Christ have a single Sunday morning worship service (86.2 percent) [that, in my opinion, eliminates the possibility of a divisive scheme that provides an alternative worship style].” The additional good news is that “of those [“13.4 percent”] that have multiple Sunday morning worship services, most report the two services are very similar in style.” There is only a small percentage of the congregations that “report significantly different worship styles in their multiple services – this is the segment in which the Madison Church of Christ belongs. Hopefully, Madison is not being looked upon as a model for such a shameful divisive scheme among churches of Christ!
So, what can we now expect to happen next as far as Madison actively “participating by association” in and with pagan ritualism is concerned? Madison has just celebrated and sung “Happy Birthday” to Jesus. Is it Valentine’s Day PARTICIPATION or Easter CELEBRATION SERVICE next?
Just watched a little special on FOX news about Selling out of Christ. Amy Grant was a featured peddler.
Too bad that the secular press is bright enough to see what is happening to once-but-now-gone Christianity and the singy-clappy people MOCKING Jesus by mocking His Truth PRETEND that the TRUTH is a LIE.
But, mocking is part of the latter day crucifixion: everyone gets their chance to drive the nails (clapp) into Jesus in their own good time as Christ is crucified afresh by those having LOST contact with the Head and therefore the WORD.
You must have missed something if you haven't detected a few witnesses who have no duty to convert or change minds. The battle is raging and those riding the harlot Kirke, like the Jewish Clergy, are about to lose THEIR law and THEIR places.
You have missed the major events of the battle if you are waiting for a Satanic army wearing camaflauge to attack: from the beginning he can be an ANGEL OF LIGHT and that makes ARMAGEDDON a "polemic" battle and not literal except the TERMINAL VIOLENCE of driving widows out of the "church house" they bought while wiping that yellow stuff off your body parts.
Remember that the little hills of armageddon are people who rise up, lift up and exalt themselves above the plain. This final battle is not the war of the worlds. Rather, it is the war of the words. The battle is from the Greek-
Polemeo (g4170) pol-em-eh'-o; from 4171; to be (engaged) in warfare, i.e. to battle (lit. or fig.): - fight, (make) war.
Polemic is from the Greek "polemikos" and means a war: "to shake, cause to tremble, dispute, controversial, argumentative. A polimicist is one "skilled in making war." (Webster) (I.e. a skilled change agent)
And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs (toads) come out of the mouth (edge of a weapon) of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. Re 16:13
There are Toads, Toadies and then there are Christians.
These kings for an hour are really frogs and they are not what they are quacked up to be. They are-
"Quacks were represented as frogs and were associated metaphorically with SERPENTS." (Vine) (Marsh-leapers in Hebrew)
-----"Here the 'Stoic frogs' start croaking at me again. Nothing, they say, is so pitiable as insanity, and exceptional folly is near-insanity, or could even be called the real thing. Insanity only means being off your head, but these frogs are right off, the track.
-----"So let's demolish their argument, if the MUSES will lend their support, subtle though it is. In Plato, Socrates shows how a single Venus and a single Cupid are divided into two, and so these masters of dialectic should really have distinguished between two forms of insanity, if they wanted to appear SANE themselves. For not every form of insanity is a disaster, or Horace would not have asked, "Or is it fond insanity deceiving me?" Erasmus.
Socrates
Didn't know that they SUSTAIN and
FEED a host of SPECIALISTS,
sayers of sooth, QUACK doctors,
hairy IDLERS with onyx signet-rings,
writers of CHORUS-bending screeches,
PHONEY meteorologists,
doing NOTHING useful,
living only to SING about the Clouds?
For the X-Rated Version of Aristophanes to find out what Socrates things about the THEATRICAL crowd acting the part of there "jesus."
http://www.piney.com/DocAristClouds.html
The BATTLE of Quack Doctors of the Law against Jehoshua
or Yahweh- Saved is ABOUT OVER: when the people begin to disappear from your Kirke look up and lament.
Ken Sublett
(no login) 64.2.150.218
Re: Happy Armageddon, Too.
December 26 2002, 2:41 PM
Hey Ken,
I don't know what you are smoking but it ain't good. I wish that God would truly convict your heart and break you down and realize the hurt that you are causing through all your name calling. May God have mercy on you as I encourage you to think of what you are saying before you type it. Sincerely, Evan
(no login) 63.84.81.140
Re: Happy Armageddon, Too
December 27 2002, 2:09 PM
I'm not sure which name you are speaking of?
Why do you call FULL DEITY the equivalent of a pagan God?
Why do you call the ASSEMBLY by the name of the Holy Whore buried on an island just over from Patmos when John warned us about the UNIVERSAL TYPE OF PAGAN religion?
Here are some more names for the skatnicks who chased away to talk about their belly buttons on IBelieve and some more proof texts about the end time COMMERCIAL religion:
* Site Pass: Premium content and message boards on Rubel Shelly, Woodmont Hills, Nashville, TN ($5.95/month)
* Network Membership: Premium content from all sites in the iBelieve Network Best value! ($9.95/month)
http://rubelshelly.ibelieve.com/ansubscribe.asp
At this time Rubel is recommending some of the POST MODERN writers urging us to return to some ancient form of religion which apparently is not contained in the FREE Word of God.
Ken Sublett
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
THE DAY AFTER: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION OVER AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST
December 30 2002, 1:00 PM
THE DAY AFTER: CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION OVER AT THE MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST, EVEN THOUGH SEVERAL CHRISTMAS TREES AND DECORATIONS ARE STILL IN THE “CHURCH” MALL.
Keith Lancaster and his PRAISE TEAM had not sung “HAPPY BIRTHDAY” to Jesus and CHRISTMAS CAROLS (“Away in a Manger,” “Hail, Mary, Mother of God,” etc.) all throughout the year, but had patiently waited till around “CHRISTMAS DAY.” Yes, the all-CHRISTMAS PRAISE MUSIC was the agenda in the Sunday morning services (12/22/02), in the CHRISTMAS CELEBRATION SERVICE with a DRAMA presentation (“A Christmas Gift”) in the evening, and in the suggested “CHRISTMAS DAY” FAMILY DEVOTIONAL on Wednesday (December 25).
On the other hand, the New Year’s Day FAMILY DEVOTIONAL guide for the following Wednesday (January 1, 2003) will be back to NORMAL. No more of those Christmas carols, as the suggested songs for the devotional are as follows:
--- “Take My Life and Let It Be”
--- “I Am Thine, O Lord”
--- “Must Jesus Bear the Cross Alone”
--- “None of Self and All of Thee”
--- “I Have Decided to Follow Jesus”
--- “Seek Ye First.”
No CONTEMPORARY CHRISTIAN [Rock] MUSIC, that Keith’s PRAISE TEAM usually performs to the congregation, either! Oh, I get it! The PRAISE TEAM can’t be in everyone’s home at that time. I see.
Even on the following Sunday, December 29, 2002, the main emphasis on Jesus’ birthday celebration vanished. Obviously, the purported pagan/Catholic Christmas Day observance at Madison has just been celebrated with a tremendous SUCCESS! So, the celebration organizers will now have to move on to other things till NEXT YEAR’S Christmas Day pagan celebration. However, the contemporary assembly this past Sunday was marked by several fast and enthusiastic feel-good “PRAISE” MUSIC, mixed in with a few sacred hymns! Of course, there was some change in the program back to the singing of SEVERAL PRAISE SONGS IN A ROW to make that segment identifiably as PRAISE WORSHIP in itself. You know … quite apart from all the other acts of worship! (Remember, this is the CONTEMPORARY worship trend –- lots of feel-good PRAISE songs that many in the congregation have difficulty learning and that only the PRAISE TEAM members can dominate in.) And then, the leaders couldn’t help but TESTIFY before the congregation how GREAT THE MUSIC WORSHIP is [BY THE PRAISE TEAM, my emphasis].
Let us remember, even with experience, the praise team still REHEARSES [in order to PERFORM well, dc]. The congregation does not rehearse, correct? Therefore, many members will have to just listen, correct? Why can’t the leaders get real and realize that what they’re hearing is NOT the congregation [oh, well, maybe a little], but is rather THAT group of performers called Keith’s PRAISE TEAM? How deprived is the congregation in a situation like this! I’m not implying “deprived” from the standpoint of enjoying the performances! That’s sad when such an unnecessary conflict arises between the ONES performing (dominating) and the ONES being performed to! Poor Donnie Cruz! He seems to be enjoying either (1) listening to the performance and being sung to or (2) having a team sing for him. Can you really blame him? But there must be many others experiencing the same. Feel-good PRAISE MUSIC:
--- We Have Come into His House (P&W #29)
--- There Is None Like You [Like Whom?]
--- Shout Be Happy
--- Everybody Will Be Happy (P&W 32) [A totally “PRAISE TEAM” effort]
--- Lord Reign in Me (sheet music available at doors)
--- Mighty Is Our God (*Sheet music for this song in red notebook;
--- --- Rehearsed joy called handclapping)
--- A New Anointing (*; programmed handclapping)
The sermon by Dr. C. Bruce White was titled, “Let’s Love the Church.” It was quite shocking to hear him mention the forefathers as having “sacrificed to maintain her” with references to Alexander Campbell, Raccoon John Smith and others of the Restoration Movement. “That the Restoration plea is alive and vibrant today!” However, it was somewhat confusing when he mentioned the non-denominational thrust in the Community Churches. He was pointing fingers at those in the church of Christ being critical of denominationalism, but yet “we have allowed the world to denominationalize us.” He was critical of the boring attitude and inactivity in the “old” church and was praiseworthy of the “fresh breed of change, greater CELEBRATION [famous word of late in the CCM environment], more enthusiasm.” He spoke negatively of our statement against the “once saved always saved” mentality and expressed that he himself is saved and sure of heaven. Beginning to sound like a Baptist, huh? He also went through a dreaming period when he said that the mega churches of Christ in Texas and in the Carolinas are getting larger. (Was that a wishful thinking for the Madison Church of Christ?) “We see some of the grandest buildings in America with Church of Christ on them.” He had a lot to say, too, about THOSE who think negatively about the church and who enjoy seeing a congregation experience conflict and fail. (I wonder WHO might THOSE negative thinkers be? ConcernedMembers, perhaps?) It appears that Dr. White has been keeping up with this website! It appears, too, that he believes the Community Church Movement deserves credit and has paralleled or equated the sets of goals, values and objectives of its own to those of the Restoration Movement. Did I misunderstand his remarks? Or, did Dr. White express his feelings about how impressed he is with the CCM’s methodology for church growth? When he especially mentions “fresh breed of change” [which sounds to me like something about the “change agents”] or feel-good “enthusiasm” or “celebration -– I become highly suspicious!
I must say to Dr. White that he has gotten non-denominationalism confused with inter-denominationalism. The first is descriptive of the church of Jesus Christ; the latter is descriptive of the Community Churches and the Community Church Movement. I must say to Mr. Keith Lancaster that, while he may or may not admit that he is a CCM proponent and propagator, many of the remaining members of the Madison Church of Christ are biblically intelligent in discerning that what he continues to do at Madison is divisive and the CCM scheme continues to not work. He needs to stop ignoring what’s happening attendance-wise in the balcony. He is giving too much attention to HIS PRAISE TEAM and how well it can PERFORM. It’s time he realizes the fact that 90% of church conflict stems from worship issues. Simply put, it is the WORSHIP STYLE imposed upon those unwilling to accept it as being a MAJOR ISSUE. Wake up, Keith! Enough of your ego and demeanor and pride! Get real with how God deplores your feel-good enthusiasm (appearance-wise) that perpetuates division!
Donnie, you are way off base as usual. You need to get out and get some fresh air in more ways than one and live a little. Put down the childish things af man and read your bible.
Rediscover the loving power of the word and get out of the pharaseeical way of life. You will be MUCH happier.
Jesus ridiculed the Pharasees and called them white-washed tombs filled with bones. Is that what you are?
Donnie Cruz (no login) 199.91.33.254
Re: get a life!! (lifer) January 2 2003, 11:16 PM
January 3 2003, 4:33 PM
Re: get a life!! (lifer) January 2 2003, 11:16 PM
Lifer:
(I almost spelled it L[uc]ifer. Just kidding. Sorry!)
I have rediscovered the love of God and the unerring power of His word. Believe me. This happened when I transitioned FROM belief in the errors of Roman Catholicism, considering the pretty convincing undying devotion of its members once they became Catholics. I also transitioned FROM the doctrinal inconsistencies of denominationalism in regard to salvation TO the plan of salvation that the Holy Scripture rightly speaks of. The transformation was certainly correct in that I was baptized into Christ for the right purpose: SO THAT my past sins would be forgiven before I could begin the newness of life as a Christian.
If you don’t consider baptism [worse yet by sprinkling] of innocent babies for “inherited sins” or forgiveness of sins (becoming a Christian) occurring before baptism as being serious doctrinal errors, you are the one who is way off base and who needs to read the Bible badly. While these examples might be somewhat extreme in Madison’s situation, these kinds of doctrinal fallacies are already creeping in other congregations slowly but surely. (Refresh some of the posts on this site by certain youth leaders and youth ministers. Remember Jeff Day who teaches that baptism as a command is an after-the-fact deal? Read those posts and no further explanation is needed.)
Folks like you, LIFER, behave and act and react as if anything that’s fed into your mouths is non-toxic and healthful! And that anything that has been believed in for a long time without the evidence of error must be changed or transformed as a way of accommodating contemporary needs. Let me constantly remind participating change agents that there is NOTHING NEW that we are preaching or advocating here or that you have not already heard. So, who is guilty of diversion and obstruction and interference here? Yes, contemporary change agents! Besides, your conclusion has been that all the members of the church PRIOR TO THE ONSET OF COMMUNITY CHURCH-ISM AND CHARISMATISM did not have their beliefs and practices in accordance with the scriptures and God’s will BECAUSE you have found it necessary to correct and transform and transition and IMPROVE UPON. So, the senior saints were/are the Pharisees? NO! NO! NO! The modern Pharisees are the contemporary I-ME-MY-MINE-MYSELF enthusiasts! They are the spiritual braggadocios as they arrogantly proclaim, “I love you, Jesus” or “I love you, brother” or “Look at me, God, I’m praising you like no else does!” As they count and lose track of the number of “Hallelujahs” and “Praise the Lords” they can utter!
Get a scriptural grip, my friend. Next time, in order to make your accusations credible, please have at least a prepared list of SPECIFIC ISSUES that you disagree with us on. And let us deal with them ONE AT A TIME. When you reach a point where you are mature enough to know the differences between what is scriptural and what is man-made, you will be getting some fresh air. Then, you will be very confident in what you believe in that is scriptural. Then, you won’t be making general accusing statements!
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
