at your church; instead of complaining about it....leave and go somewhere else!

Re: If you don't like what is happening..... (by Scott) September 20 2002 at 12:46 PM

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG PROPOSITION, ACTION AND RESULT!!!

The solution is: Do not divert, subvert, pervert, intrude, divide and interfere with anything that has already been established in long-standing congregations of the body of Christ. If you don’t like what is happening as soon as you observe and notice that you are not welcome in your attempt, then, you as diverters, subversion agents, doctrinal perverts, intruders, dividers and interferers should go somewhere else and start YOUR own. The community field is open out there for your brand of evangelism and conversion.

Donnie Cruz

What you said Donnie makes absolutely no sense. Why don't you speak English for a change instead of speaking in riddles. I didn't understand a thing you said!

Scott, was the riddle too complex for you? My suggestion to you is really simple (this time): read it again and again until you get it -- seventy times seven, to be exact. If you still don’t get it, my next suggestion is for you to seek counsel: TBN has several prayer lines and its staff might have a potent spiritual pill delivered to you -- and just for you -- online. If that doesn’t work, find you an unbiased interpreter. If that still doesn’t work, go to Step 1 and read this paragraph again.

Are there others out there having the same problem with understanding the riddle? If so, just follow the same instructions given to Scott. Lest I forget, are there folks out there who know exactly what Donnie is talking about? I give up! There are just too many “raised hands” that I see. I can’t count ‘em all. Sorry, Scott. Oh, no! Not another riddle!

You don't ammuse me with your TBN comment Donnie. I think your main goal here is to ruffle people's feathers. I get a kick out of you trying to justify yourself. If you like riddles, try reading Mary Had A Little Lamb. You might enjoy it!

Scott

Sorry, Scott, but your original comment referring to my serious remarks about what’s really “happening” as being riddles really amused me. I’ll skip reading “Mary Had a Little Lamb”; it’s way above my level of intellect, thank you. My main goal is simply to tell the truth. I realize the truth hurts; but I must tell it. As far as TBN goes, you may not realize it, but I believe that’s where you’ve learned to develop real “charisma”; and your personality seems to show that. I could’ve associated you with PTL, but it’s been defunct for years now.

It’s interesting that you haven’t complained anymore about not understanding my riddles. You must have followed the instructions meticulously.

Donnie

I think you should stand back and take a look at this. What you really should have said is that if you don't like what is happening at your church, you should meet privately with your Elders. If they do not see a problem or fix the problem you brought to their attention, then you should find another congregation at which to worship.

If the Holy Spirit is leading people in two different directions, and those people can not worship under the same roof, leaving is a much better option than biting and devouring other members of the body of Christ.

God never intended for the body to bite and devour each other. Two groups can worship a little bit differently, and both groups can be right because the difference are matters of opinion and not matters of doctrine.

If they are matter of doctrine, one should probably seek another place where they can worship with what they believe to be the truth as well.

Kevin

Kevin,

Your premise is way off the mark. I don’t see how the Holy Spirit, that you have known to directly influence (or whisper to) you and many of the elders and other leaders, can possibly be “LEADING PEOPLE IN TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.” To me, that’s more like what God’s enemy would want to happen in congregations. Are you sure this is the Holy Spirit or is it some other kind of spirit?

Kevin, with the exception that you did not label my statement about those that “divert, pervert, intrude, etc.” as a RIDDLE, you came up with the same conclusion as Scott did, i.e., LEAVE. You know, it wasn’t long ago when Scott posted on the CM/Richland Hills site with a question, “What is going on there? Firing Deacons and appointing Deaconesses! Did anybody not think to read I Timothy 2 before coming to that conclusion? Keeping members in the dark. It's like a covert operation, not a body of Christ! Get it together people. Ya'll are rubbing off on other churches.” Jeff Day responded with, “Praise the Lord! … RHCOC is rubbing off on other churches. The Churches of Christ need a little rubbing off on. We don't have it all right.”

Knowing now that Scott has actually alluded to what seemed to be “a covert operation” at Richland Hills, I’m really wondering why he did not understand my reference to those that “divert, pervert, intrude, etc.” to do their evangelism out there in the community mission field, rather than interfere with the affairs of the congregation. This is exactly the same COVERT OPERATION that has taken place in a number of congregations, including Madison.

You are right, Kevin, that “God never intended for the body to bite and devour each other. Moreover, God never intended for the church to be split over worship activities that affect one’s spirituality, therefore, WORSHIP IS A DOCTRINAL ISSUE. (We’re not talking about gyms and kitchen sinks here -- these are not doctrinal issues.) Each PAST GENERATION was CONTEMPORARY during its time. But we DID NOT have this problem of contemporaneousness in worship in each passing generation. I’m afraid that unbeknownst to many members of the body of Christ, the leaders have simply employed the Saddleback alternative to worship – the “contemporary” STYLE. Sounds great and wonderful, doesn’t it? But, it’s just another way of saying that since we cannot make everybody happy, let us let a group of worshipers do it differently. Guess what? There’s your split! PRESERVING THE UNION BUT NOT KEEPING THE UNITY! Sorry, Kevin, but worship is just one issue among several. If a church of Christ congregation really wants to do the Charismatic imitation, why do it halfheartedly, huh? It might as well have a blast and do the whole “THANG.” WHOLEHEARTEDLY! Before long, no one will ever recognize a “church of Christ” congregation if you find one!!!

Next time, be sure that it is the right Holy Spirit whispering to you.

Donnie

Very Well Said Mr Cruz.

You're right it is better to leave than fight. Kind of remindes me of Abram and Lot. God loved and cared for both of them, but had them go in separate direction. When you see your congergation start to worship pagan gods you should bring it to the attention of the Elders, but when they refuse to heal Gods warning and continue to do that which is evil, you should leave, run!

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

If you're not strong enough to stop the "take over" than you're better off going somewhere else.

I see nothing but whining and complaining about "our church", "our founders" our, our, our. There is only ONE founder and the Church is NOT a building!! The Church has long been in apostesy because it's eyes are closed. No wonder it was so easy to subvert you!

Bill,

Only time will tell. You are quick to condemn those posting on this site in defense of the Church. I am equally as quick to defend them. They are providing an invaluable service to the brotherhood.

If you think this is an easy battle then you are sadly mistaken. Satan began corrupting the Word of God in the Garden of Eden. Lynn Anderson wrote that it took 15 years to make changes at Highland Church of Christ in Abilene, TX. This subversion has deep roots and it is going to take more than a year or two or three to stop it.

The change agents may be more bold in their approach, but we have the armor of God.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Bill,

I think the key phrases in your statements are “whining and complaining” and “taking over.” The whining and complaining really originate from those who experience boredom in their spirituality, dissatisfaction for God’s basic scheme of redemption, and the lustful desire to conform to the demands of popular culture and contemporaneousness. These are the people who seek to promote innovations in order to IMPROVE UPON God’s will and directions for Christian living, regardless of repercussions. These are the people who have very little or no concern for doctrinal errors, and they completely ignore the admonition in Proverbs 14:12 that says, “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

The innovation promoters, contemporary conformists and the Charismatic and Community Movement seekers are the ones that invade, disrupt, and interfere with the affairs of congregations of the church of Christ. Innovations do not have to be opposed, but when they alter God’s specifications and guiding principles and when they are condoned and practiced in order to “feel good” in human terms, then, the truth is compromised. When the truth is compromised, subversion and division take place. The “takeover” proceeds.

Members of the church who are grounded in the truth must defend themselves, and this is by NO MEANS “whining and complaining” because they are the VICTIMS (and NOT PROPAGATORS) of intrusion, subversion and interference. (It is surprising to me that as much concern that Scott has, as the originator of this thread, over the strength of influence of the Community Church Movement upon churches of Christ, that he has been critical of our purposes and objectives to warn congregations in the brotherhood that the takeover is imminent once the groundwork is laid.) The power and strength to resist, to defend the truth, and to STOP the TAKEOVER all comes from God’s truth itself:

Ephesians 6: “[10] Finally, my brethren, be STRONG in the Lord, and in the power of his might. [11] Put on the whole ARMOUR of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. [12] For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. [13] Wherefore take unto you the whole ARMOUR of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. [14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with TRUTH, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; [15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the GOSPEL OF PEACE; [16] Above all, taking the SHIELD OF FAITH, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. [17] And take the HELMET of salvation, and the SWORD of the Spirit, which is the WORD OF GOD: [18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and WATCHING thereunto with all PERSEVERANCE and supplication for all saints….”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Donnie Cruz

AMEN BROTHER
The door opens and the door closes and no one stands guard at the enterance or exit.
This my first and last time to read this trash sight. Get busy and save sould and you won't have time to read busy body chat.

Quoting Justin in his response to Scott’s initial post: I think you should stand back and take a look at this. What you really should have said is that if you don't like what is happening at your church, you should meet privately with your Elders. If they do not see a problem or fix the problem you brought to their attention, then you should find another congregation at which to worship.

Justin, welcome aboard!

I agree with you that a member should seek a solution or solutions first, such as bringing the problems or potential problems to the attention of the elders, etc., before finding another congregation to fellowship with. There are factors involved in this process:

• Identifying and describing the nature of each of the problems specifically;
  
  
• Identifying the individual or [especially the] group of individuals responsible for initiating the problems, if possible;
  
  
• Meeting with the entire eldership—and never with just a few who volunteer themselves and who might not be sympathetic to your cause;
  
  
• Bringing others with you to meet with all the elders—and never by yourself;
  
  
• Identifying [one by one] which elders understand, agree, are concerned and are willing to seriously provide solutions to each problem … and identifying the opposing elders;
  
  
• Requesting the eldership to responsibly face the congregation and present to the members the problems brought to their attention, as well as solutions they are providing—then letting the members decide for themselves and respond accordingly.
  

It is also important to note the demeanor of each elder in the meeting (open-mindedness, consistency in agreeing or opposing every proposition or statement presented, condescending attitude, the dominant elder or elders speaking, etc.). It is also important to know something about the background of each elder—how recently he has begun serving as an elder. (For all you know, the novice elder might have an affinity for just any kind of social- or culture-based changes without scriptural backing and/or he might have an affinity with the “apostles” of change in the brotherhood.) It is of utmost importance if an elder, novice or experienced, is knowledgeable of the scriptures [as elders should be apt to teach the truth—and that certainly is a qualification (I Timothy 3:2)]. No one should be swayed into believing an elder’s explanation or statements without scriptural foundation.

I’m sure there are other factors that must be considered before meeting with the entire eldership. So, there’s where to start.

Donnie