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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Creeping Creedalism

October 11 2013, 9:45 PM 

I have just collected a few notes on "What we Believe" on Salvation by Grace.

http://www.piney.com/Madison.Church.of.Christ.Salvation.by.Grace.Through.Faith.html


 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: Creeping Creedalism

October 11 2013, 10:19 PM 

I have added a few more details.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Creeping Creedalism

October 12 2013, 2:14 AM 

Scripture,

This is the first time I've visited the Madison site in quite a while.

I was not able to distinguish this church's published teachings from those of the Baptist and other denominations.

I wonder if more of its members who are really knowledgeable of what the New Testament teaches and are made aware of Madison's publicized newly acquired creed will consider leaving Madison for good.

The leaders (including the "shepherds," et al) need to get back to studying the New Testament and the teachings of Christ and His apostles.

The separate sections concerning "Salvation by Grace Through Faith" and "Water Baptism" [where "salvation" is absent"] indeed reveal the BAPTIST denomination's redemption formula.

Even sections pertaining to "The Church" and "Tithes and Offerings" are strong indications of the direction that the church's leaders are moving toward.

(It all makes me wonder about the leadership at Madison. Are there "other leaders" that now oversee the "shepherds"? What is it about this young preacher, Jason Shepherd, a graduate of Freed-Hardeman Univ., a conservative school? [Never mind: the prominent change agent Rubel Shelly graduated from FHC also.] You know, I'm now more and more convinced that the demoted former minister, Phil Barnes, was "conservative" after all, perhaps too conservative for the shepherds.)

Sad and unfortunate!!!

 
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Scripture
(no login)
98.87.34.151

Creeping Creedalism

October 12 2013, 10:53 AM 

The previous pulpit minister was increasingly under pressure to preach what the "spiritual leaders" wanted him to preach.

The current preaching minister is teaching the gospel of "The City Church", Seattle.

Madison has adopted much of their creed--enough that it is easy to say they have crossed the Rubicon.

Who are the spiritual leaders?

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Madison Good Old Days

October 12 2013, 12:39 AM 

Thanks, brother Ken.

I could not have said it any better.

When I presented the lessons on prepositions, I could not get any help from our resident English professor, Dr. Bill Crump, to reinforce the truth that "OF" in an expression indicates ownership or possession or "that which belongs to." There are about 70 references from both the Old and New Testaments to: "the [holy] spirit OF _________" [oops, I yielded to the temptation to provide that list below].

  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12)

I was going to say NOT ONLY the preposition "OF" but ALSO the personal pronoun "HIS" shows ownership.

Well, look no further: the above list explains "HIS," etc. with some 8 scriptural references.

Why would grammar experts not see that in the expression "the holy spirit OF God," it really makes no sense to "generate" [what about "create"?] ANOTHER divine being called "Holy Spirit" SEPARATE FROM God??????????

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: Madison Good Old Days

October 12 2013, 1:01 AM 

Coach,

I am very grateful to you for introducing Lonzo Pribble to me. I haven't read his book yet, but I really love the title:

Theology Simplified -- God, His Son, and His Spirit

It can't get any more scriptural than that:

  1. God ---------- [only one] the Father (13 refs. from John 6:27 - Jude 1:1)
  2. His Son ------ Jesus, whom the Father made both Lord and Christ
  3. His Spirit --- (the Spirit of the Father, the Spirit of Jesus Christ).

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.211.239

It's Still So Very Simple

October 12 2013, 3:20 AM 

In the human world, a father is a distinct person. If the father has a son, the son belongs to the father; that is, the son OF the father, yet the son is also a distinct person. Suppose the father has a close relative, such as a nephew, for example. Even though the nephew is a distinct person, he is still the nephew OF the father or the father's nephew.

A family relationship also exists in the divine world with God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God is a distinct, divine being. The Son OF God is Jesus, Who is also a distinct, divine being. By close relationship to the Father, the Holy Spirit is also a distinct, divine being, who belongs to God, who is also the Holy Spirit OF God. Of course, the Holy Spirit is not really God's "nephew," but a family type of relationship does exist with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To recap:

The Son OF God, AKA Jesus, is a distinct, divine being Who belongs to God. Another way to say it is "God's Son."

The Holy Spirit OF God is also a distinct, divine being who also belongs to God. Another way to say it is "God's Holy Spirit."

It's still so very simple, even with the preposition OF.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

"The Holy Spirit OF God" VERSUS "The Holy Spirit IS God"

October 12 2013, 4:05 AM 

In your divine familial relationship, did you forget about "the Virgin Mary, 'Mother of God'"?

In your divine familial relationship (since we know about the birth of Jesus, God's Son), when was "the Holy Spirit" born?

In your divine familial relationship, if "the Holy Spirit" was not born but rather in co-existence with the Father, would you consider "the Holy Spirit" the "Mother of Jesus"?

In your divine familial relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?



 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.242.117

Sometimes More Than One Way

October 12 2013, 11:40 AM 

In the Bible, sometimes things can be seen correctly in more than one way. Often there is only one way to see them correctly, but there are times when different views can still be correct.

For example, the Holy Spirit OF God can be correctly seen two ways: (1) either as a distinct, divine being who is not God, but who nevertheless belongs to God's "family," (thus, God's Holy Spirit), just as Jesus is God's Son; OR (2) as the Spirit that lies within God Himself. Of course, if one takes the latter view, given that God is already an eternal spirit, then the Holy Spirit would have to be seen as the "spirit of a spirit." That sounds awkward, but it is no less awkward than Donnie's saying "Jesus became Jesus" when the Word became flesh. BTW, we must thank Donnie for concocting his phrase "Jesus became Jesus." Of course, he meant it to be absurd, because to Donnie, the idea that Jesus could have ever been the Word Who was with God in the beginning is absurd. But in trying to be absurd, Donnie unwittingly stated a reality: Jesus, as a divine being, left heaven for a time to be born as Jesus the human being on earth. So in reality, the idea that "Jesus became Jesus" is not absurd at all. Thanks again, Donnie!


 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

No: There Is Only One Spirit -- NOT Two Spirits

October 12 2013, 2:28 PM 

Bill,

Honestly, you should own the expression: "Jesus Became Jesus." That is YOURS -- based on your assumption that "the Word" in the beginning was Jesus, in the first place. So, it follows YOUR belief system that "the Word [JESUS, according to YOUR PRESUMPTION] was made flesh [BECAME Jesus]." Now -- that is the absurdity.

The expression "the spirit of a spirit" -- that is yours as well. That's what happens when Trinitarians IMAGINE that there is a separate DIVINE BEING, the THIRD PERSON called "the Holy Spirit" in "God's family."

There is NO FAMILY in the godhead. God's FAMILY is the church, referred to as the household of God in Ephesians 2:19.

As usual, you ignore specific questions that I ask. So, here it is again.

In your creative imagination of a DIVINE FAMILIAL relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?


Bill, I am waiting.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: "The Holy Spirit OF God" VERSUS "The Holy Spirit IS God"

October 12 2013, 12:55 PM 

The Massed Multitude is not supposed to read black text on brown paper: that is how we know to dust off feet.

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;


There is ONE GOD affirms Jesus.
God is whatever YOU cannot define but not a being as in creature.

Jesus is one Human Being. That makes two. My father was a being and I am a being but I was not my father before I became me. My father existed before his SON and was lots smarter: Jesus knew only what the ONE GOD breathed (spirit) into Him.

There is only ONE MEDIATOR or INTERCESSOR between man and God. There is not a holy spirit BEING. Jesus was not Lord or Christ until the ONE BEING in whom we live, move and have our being MADE HIM SO.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ

Jesus was given the Fulness of Deity bodily with full authority.

There are "spirits" OF THE WORLD for whom Jesus did not pray and god HID from the wise or Sophists (self speakers, singers, instrument players."

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

If you can't just "speak that which is written for our learning" then it is not given to you.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.247.5

It Will Always Be So Simple

October 12 2013, 1:54 PM 

Mary was never divine, contrary to what the Catholics believe. She was merely a mortal who gave birth to Jesus as a human on earth. There is no matriarchy in heaven, only a patriarchal "family" with Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and their angels. (Notice that when an angel is identified by name in the Bible, it is always with a "male" name -- Gabriel, Michael, etc; no female names for angels.) They are eternal, with no beginning and no end. Jesus took a different form as a man on earth for some 33 years, then ascended BACK to heaven whence He had come.

It is still very simple.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Roman Catholic Church Owns Both "FAMILY" Conceptss

October 12 2013, 2:43 PM 

Bill,

The Roman Catholic Church [with its "bishops of Rome" and in collaboration with paganism prevalent in the era] INVENTED BOTH FAMILY types:

(1) The Trinity -- God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

(2) The [Other] Trinity -- God the Father, God the Son and the Virgin Mary, THE Mother of God.

You accept FAMILY type #1.

You reject FAMILY type #2. Maybe, you have some explaining to do to the Roman and American Catholics and to the other Catholics, of course.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.246.91

Re: The Roman Catholic Church Owns Both "FAMILY" Conceptss

October 12 2013, 3:21 PM 

A number of churches of Christ call themselves "The Family of God" or "A Family of God." Are they Catholics? Are not God the Father and Jesus the Son a "family," together with the Holy Spirit and the angels? Mary is not a part of that spiritual "family," because she was never divine. So let's leave the Catholics out of this, because they don't "own" the universal concept of "family," whether it is human or spiritual.

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

The Roman Catholic Church Owns Both "FAMILY" Concepts

October 12 2013, 7:04 PM 

The scriptural concept of God's family or household is that it encompasses the entire body of Christ, His church. It is correct for a congregation of the church or body of Christ to embrace that which the Scripture teaches. So, that's not the argument -- you are deviating from the issue at hand which follows:

The Catholic's "God's FAMILY" concept is pagan-based: it's either a multiplicity of gods or "the Trinity." It's also based on the human familial concept of father-mother-and-child. In order to complete the family "structure" based on human thinking, the bishops of Rome concocted the Father (Person No. 1), the Son (Person No. 2), and the Holy Spirit (Person No. 3) -- a convenient way to replace the missing Mother of the family.

The other Catholic's "God's FAMILY" concept of father-mother-and-child became real when "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" was added to the family structure.

You'll have a lot of explaining to do to your Catholic friends.

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.107.21

Re: The Roman Catholic Church Owns Both "FAMILY" Concepts

October 12 2013, 9:49 PM 

Isn't The Family of God one of those waco cults. To Rubel Shelly, individuals lose their right to read, interpret or speak the word outside of the COMMUNITY reading. Since there is a dominant leader in "the family" and since he tells you what you can and cannot speak and he collects tithes and offerings without authority then this defines a CULT. The brainwashing by the Purpose Driven system along with the music INTENDS to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter" and they really do not have the ability to confront the robber. Indeed, it seems that he-she may be in love with the Alpha Male which is noted in the charismatic movements. As soon as they fall OUT of love then the can be DEPROGRAMMED.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.203.11

If You Condemn the Catholics, Don't Use Their Resources

October 12 2013, 10:24 PM 

Donnie, you don't have much room to condemn the Catholics, given the fact that, from time to time, you have sought their "support" for some of your arguments by running to the Douay-Rheims Bible, a Catholic resource of all things. When the good ole KJV didn't support you, you turned to "Mother Church" and the pope. That business about "speaking" the hymns comes to mind. happy.gif

 
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Donnie Cruz
(Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
99.177.250.192

Re: If You Condemn the Catholics, Don't Use Their Resources

October 13 2013, 7:26 PM 

"Not all translations are created equal."

Based on the original manuscript, Douay-Rheims translated the text correctly. KJV was a close second. LOL. happy.gif

You keep ignoring my question. Here it is again:

In your creative imagination of a DIVINE FAMILIAL relationship:

(1) The name of God the Father is "Jehovah";
(2) The name of the Son of God is "Jesus Christ";
(3) The name of "the Holy Spirit" (as a divine being) is ____________?


Bill, I am waiting. Still.

 
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Bill
(no login)
74.179.246.91

Re: It Will Always Be So Simple

October 12 2013, 3:15 PM 

this was posted twice


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.107.21 on Oct 12, 2013 9:41 PM


 
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Coach
(no login)
108.230.197.238

Re: Madison Good Old Days

October 13 2013, 3:56 PM 

Donnie, I have not read Lonzo Pribble's book. I have only read Wayne Jackson's article and a few book reviews. However, you may find the book to have "a fly in the ointment" on an issue you hold dear. Please give us a good review when you finish the book.

 
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This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!

...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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