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What We Believe

October 19 2013, 5:20 PM 

Under the "Scripture" part of the creed we have:


We believe in the inspiration of the accepted canon of the Scriptures as originally given and that they are perfectly and uniquely authoritative in all matters with which they deal, including scientific and historical as well as moral and theological (2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Corinthians 2:13)"

They accept the "originally given" as perfect and authoritative, but yet no one has the "original" documents. So would you call this an "oxymoron"? The originally given are perfect in science according to Madison, so we can study the scriptures as science books. Would this mean that there have been no advances in science in the last 2000 years?

As an example, "demon possession" is referred to in the scriptures, and there is no allusion to mental illness, so are we to conclude that all mentally ill people today are "demon possessed"?

Did an amateur help Madison develop this creed?

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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)

Re: What We Believe

October 19 2013, 7:19 PM 

Holy Scripture is:Hagiogpha , rum, n., = Agiographa,
I.the last of the three principal divisions of the Old Testament Scriptures, Hier. in. Reg. praef.; id. Ep. 106, 110.

This quoted document by Jerome defines apostolic succession as faithful elders replacing faithful elders all pledged not to let anyone tamper with the Word in written or verbal form. His view of SCRIPTURE is that it is what we use for MEDITATION and not dogma.

2Tim. 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
.....knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Tim. 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
.....which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Tim. 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
.....and is profitable
.....for doctrine,
.....for reproof,
.....for correction,
.....for instruction in righteousness:
2Tim. 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect,
.....throughly furnished unto all good works.

A Church of Christ is built upon the PROPHETS and APOSTLES Where Christ in the Prophets REPUDIATED all of the merchandising or the Word and used INSTRUMENTS as the mark that people have no intention of obeying. No one at Madison was raised up, like Timothy, on the Prophets and Apostles.

Luke 11:49 Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:
1Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
2Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Madison is built upon the Curse of the Monarchy to which God abandoned the Israelites to because of musical idolatry. The Levites prophesying was singing and playing instruments and was soothsaying or sorcery.

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Re: What We Believe

October 19 2013, 9:31 PM 

Yes, brother, "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things where are mighty." 1 Cor.1:27.

"Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Cor. 1:25.

"But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption." 1 Cor. 1:30.

Most all the Bible is written for us to know the way of righteousness, not to confront the wisdom of the world (science) but to show a higher and more excellent way. That is the righteousness of the cross, which confounds the wisdom of the wise. Out of weakness there is strength, out of foolishness is there wisdom, out of abuse there is power. It is the spiritual that is significant (1 Cor. 2:13), as the creed suggests, but the creed goes further to include science, theology, history, and morality. Actually "morality" confronts itself with their salvation creed, "grace through faith", and morality goes beyond that to include works (correct?). So there is an inherent contradiction between their statement of the use of the Bible with their statement of salvation of grace through faith.

These are the kinds of difficulties that a church runs into, when it not only adopts a creed, but largely borrows the exact wording from a congregation of people far different from its own membership.

Madison does not realize it, but it may be recreating the "wars of the Bible" without even knowing it.

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What We Believe?

October 30 2013, 8:51 PM 

Time-out... I think we could all benefit by a review of the word "conjecture" in light of recent posts.

noun: conjecture;plural noun: conjectures
an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.
"conjectures about the newcomer were many and varied"
synonyms: speculation, guesswork, surmise, fancy, presumption, assumption, theory, postulation, supposition; More
antonyms: fact
an unproven mathematical or scientific theorem.
"the Goldbach conjecture"
(in textual criticism) the suggestion or reconstruction of a reading of a text not present in the original source.
verb: conjecture;3rd person present: conjectures;past tense: conjectured;past participle: conjectured;gerund or present participle: conjecturing
form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information.
"he conjectured the existence of an otherwise unknown feature"
synonyms: guess, speculate, surmise, infer, fancy, imagine, believe, think, suspect, presume, assume, hypothesize, suppose


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Pribble's Fly In The Ointment...For Some People

October 31 2013, 7:40 PM 

A previous post by Coach with updated info.

"Donnie, I have not read Lonzo Pribble's book. I have only read Wayne Jackson's article and a few book reviews. However, you may find the book to have "a fly in the ointment" on an issue you hold dear. Please give us a good review when you finish the book."


As observed earlier, the logical consequence of the concept of eternal generation is that there was a time when the Second Person of the Godhead did not exist though most who advocate the doctrine repudiate the implication of the teaching. But, as a recent writer stated it, with no apology for the conclusion, Christ had his origin back in the ages of eternity, when he became the divine offspring (Son) of God before anything or anyone else ever came into existence (Pribble, 82; emphasis added).


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Ken Sublett
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Re: Pribble's Fly In The Ointment...For Some People

October 31 2013, 8:10 PM 

Can you give us a passage about eternal generation?

The SON of God defined by everyone is the WORD of God: God generates a WORD when He (only HE) thinks, breaths and articulates which is beyond the brain cells of this forum.

If God is eternal then his WORD or SON is eternal. Christ is not a god word but speaks of the MESSIAH prophesied to be the Seed of Abraham and David.

Jesus was neither LORD nor CHRIST until God MADE HIM TO BE. If you have time on your hand you can read the whole preface without having it quoted:

Note 9 Innatus. The words which Rufinus has rendered "natus an innatus" are rendered by Jerome in his Epistle to Avitus (94 alias 59), "factus an infectus." Criticising the errors in the first book of the Principles, he says: "Origen declares the Holy Spirit to be third in dignity and honour after the Father and the Son; and although professing ignorance whether he were created or not (factus an infectus), he indicated afterwards his opinion regarding him, maintaining that nothing was uncreated except God the Father." Jerome, no doubt, read genhtoj h agenhtoj, and Rufinus gennhtoj h agennhtoj.

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Ken Sublett
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October 31 2013, 8:49 PM 

This is absolute VERIFICATION of the direct commands and approved examples to PREACH the Word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. God says that the imagination of man is only evil continually. Therefore, handling the WORD of God made certain or validated by the Man Jesus of Nazareth is DANGEROUS and DEADLY to any person trained as a "doctor of the Law" which according to Jesus means that he is waged to Take Away the Key to Knowledge.

ORIGIN: Chapter II.-On Christ.

"1. In the first place, we must note that the nature of that deity which is IN CHRIST in respect of His being the only-begotten Son of God is one thing,
and that human nature which He assumed in these last times for the purposes of the dispensation (of grace) is another.

And therefore we have first to ascertain what the only-begotten Son of God is, seeing He is called by many different names, according to the circumstances and views of individuals.

For He is termed Wisdom, according to the expression of Solomon: "The Lord created me-the beginning of His ways, and among His works, before He made any other thing; He rounded me before the ages. In the beginning, before He formed the earth, before He brought forth the fountains of waters, before the mountains were made strong, before all the hills, He brought me forth."

He is also styled First-born, as the apostle has declared: "who is the first-born of every creature." The first-born, however, is not by nature a different person from the Wisdom, but one and the same.

Esau was the first born meaning that when he was born He was the inheritor of his father's Will
Jesus was the first born meaning that he is the LEADER or HEAD of the Christian flock--be it every so tiny

Finally, the Apostle Paul says that " Christ (is) the Power of God and the Wisdom of God."

"ALL of the scholars and the Scriptures define CHRIST never as a PEOPLE: Christ was the ROCK in the wilderness but the Rock was not God. Note Definition: Christ IS the POWER and WISDOM of God.

"2. Let no one, however, imagine that we mean anything impersonal when we call Him the Wisdom of God; or suppose, for example, that we understand Him to be, not a living being endowed with wisdom, but something which MAKES men wise, giving itself to, and implanting itself in, the minds of those who are made capable of receiving His virtues and intelligence.

That means having A holy spirit capable of reading BLACK text on BROWN paper.

"If, then, it is once rightly understood that the only-begotten Son of God is His Wisdom hypostatically existing, I know not whether our curiosity ought to advance beyond this, or entertain any suspicion that that u9po/stasij or substantia without having generated this Wisdom?
..........For in that case he must say either that God was unable to generate Wisdom before He produced her, so that He afterwards called into being her who formerly did not exist, or that HE possessed the power indeed,

Here is the ABSOLUTE MARK OF ANTICHRIST as defined by John.

"but-what cannot be said of God without impiety-was unwilling to use it; both of which suppositions, it is patent to all, are alike absurd and impious: for they amount to this,

1 either that God advanced from a condition of inability to one of ability,
2 or that, although possessed of the power, He concealed it, and delayed the generation of Wisdom.

"Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding. And therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.

All readers of the Bible and the historic scholars understand that the SON of God was God's WISDOM [she] and BREATH and LOGOS [he] but that which the ONE GOD projects when He "thinks, breathes and articulated." Even so, this is to give us a hint of what we can understand only in human terms.

And agreeing with the thesis that Genesis 1 is the Prophetic Type (to fool the foolish merchants Matt 13) and John 1 is the Prophetic Type made more certain so that those OF FAITH can see the Church of Christ as the reign of Christ from the beginning of Moses' record.

"And since all the creative power of the coming creation was included in this very existence of Wisdom (whether of those things which have an original or of those which have a derived existence), having been formed beforehand and arranged by the power of foreknowledge; on account of these very creatures which had been described, as it were, and prefigured in Wisdom herself, does Wisdom say, in the words of Solomon, that she was created the beginning of the ways of God, inasmuch as she contained within herself either the beginnings, or forms, or species of all creation. contains anything of a bodily nature, since everything that is corporeal is distinguished either by form, or colour, or magnitude. And who in his sound senses ever sought for form, or colour, or size, in wisdom, in respect of its being wisdom? And who that is capable of entertaining reverential thoughts or feelings regarding God, can suppose or believe that God the Father ever existed, even for a moment of time,

Origen has just defined the REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE which all of the PROGRESSIVES mock and claim that THEY are now the regulators and they are ANTI-Logos and that is why those OF THE WORLD were PREDESTINATED means defined beforehand so that the few lost spirits will be able to recognize the SECRET sign written in PLAIN SIGHT.

The elders of the synagogue were OVERSEERS: That means that while a student could READ the Word (that one piece pattern), the APT elder looked over his shoulder to make certain that he did not miss or add a word which would be contempt. The "notes" were for rhymic prose to make certain that the READER did not add any pauses, umms, ahhs, inflections, or when "I was a great preacher in Texas." You cannot be a Christian if you are not a STUDEN of what Christ defined in the prophets and Jesus made certain or certified and the witnesses of the risen Christ left for our "memory" as the only way to mark a FALSE TEACHER who does not have A holy spirit.

This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address on Oct 31, 2013 9:01 PM

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What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?

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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

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5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)

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