To: All Members of the Madison Church Of Christ , Past and Present

From: Concerned Members with a Right to Know

Date: 00/00/2001

Subject: You Have a Right To Know What's Happening!

Dear Member and Ex-Members of the Madison Church of Christ,


Do you recognize this scenario?

You?re at church and suddenly realize that someone has changed your church! You ask people you know, "What's going on", and everyone says, "I don't know". You wonder, what do they mean! Have we been asleep? "What's going on here?" So, you approach some of your church elders with the same question. You get a similar answer. Now, your gut feeling is, ?something?s not right here?.



Someone knows what?s going on here, but it's not me!



Sunday School

You ask your children if their Sunday School has changed? Their reply, "Yeah!". You ask, "What has changed?" They say, "Oh we mostly sing; my teacher said, "Things needed to be made more entertaining!" You think, "Entertainment??, since when do families go to church to be entertained?



A Real Life Nightmare

By now you've figured out this is not a dream, but a real life nightmare. This nightmare is affecting an untold number of Madison Church of Christ members. A few very concerned members have contributed to the distribution of this poll. How many more members share these thoughts and concerns? The answer to that question is ?We don't know?. However, we all have a right to know! You have a right to know, if you wish!



National Worship Format Issues

There are churches in this nation that ?export? division by the very nature of their view of worship. We will not name a particular church that causes us to make this statement. However, other churches and church leaders have considered the idea of emulating the spectacular growth of one or more churches that ?entertain? their members rather than worship God because it fills the churches to the brim, as the old phrase goes. Leaders of some of these churches believe that members of churches who prefer what they would call ?the old beliefs? need to be converted to entertainment, run off or run over to prevent them from restricting growth. There is a glaring reason why this may be happening across America, if not the world. It is a lot easier to get people to join an entertainment venue than to get them to commit to follow Christ and worship God in Holy reverence.

Here are some facts that we know:

1. There are good and godly people leaving the Madison Church of Christ in disgust.

2. The elders are not telling us what's going on.

3. We have a right to know what's going on, as well as anyone else that cares about our church.

We know that we can worship God at many fine churches in the Nashville area. However, before we make a decision to move to another church, we have a right to know what's going on ?behind the scenes? at Madison. You have a right to know.

We need to find out who is in the minority. If people who are concerned about the changes taking place at Madison are in the minority, we may have to move our families to churches that strengthen our beliefs and follow a different worship format than we see emerging at Madison Church of Christ at this time. It's not our desire to be an element of divisiveness. It is our desire to get to the truth and show how widespread (or not) this movement is at Madison Church of Christ. Wouldn?t you like to know? We have a right to know, you have a right to know, every church in Nashville has a right to know how this could happen to their church. Can 350 people overthrow 3,500? This poll will answer that question! Wouldn?t you like to know the answer? Oddly enough, you have part of the answer and we can all know the whole answer by participating in this poll.

We understand that the elders are now in "secret meetings" to make a decision on how the Madison Church is going to be run. Here's the problem.

We don?t think God's work needs to be carried out in secret.

No one consulted the church membership before the current changes were made in the Madison Church of Christ worship format. The results have been devastating. Now the Elders have announced they are meeting in secret again to decide something that?s never been asked of its members. The Creators of change are obviously in charge and their work is best carried out in secret. Here is your chance to tell the Elders what they never asked you.

========================
Posts made prior to 10-23-2002 have been archived.

Click here to read the archive.
========================

The system which calls for the passive pew sitter to simply look on at the "worship service" is the culprit here. Not the "community church movement." It is time to take the relationship in Christ home, where we have the God given control that we need. We have left the formal structure here and things have never been better. If any would like to email me concerning this, please do at donahue@rvi.net

Dan

Dan,

If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you a couple of questions. When did you begin developing an affinity to and embracing the Community Church Movement? What is the name of the Community Church that you are a member of or does your membership congregation still carry the name “of Christ”?

I believe that your premise regarding the assembly of a body of believers, i.e., for the purpose of creating MUSIC, making it into a “MUSICAL” WORSHIP and providing an atmosphere for HOLY ENTERTAINMENT, is a spin. We need to go back to one example of the purpose for gathering by the first century disciples. I am sure that you are familiar with Acts 20:7, “And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.” MUSIC was never a part of God’s scheme of redemption nor was it designated as an act of worship. Among the believers, the gathering is about commemorating Christ’s death, burial and resurrection and teaching of God’s word. The preceding passage is supported by Colossians 3:16, in which the emphasis is in the word of Christ dwelling in us. One vehicle for the teaching or admonishing one another is singing (NOT MUSIC). “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” How much simpler can you get than that? There are ways that “the system which calls for the passive pew sitter to look on at the ‘worship service’” [your words] can be improved without altering God’s SIMPLE design for the assembly of Christians.

The FEEL-GOOD worship service structure is undoubtedly very appealing to those with CCM tendencies. And why shouldn’t it be when there’s less of God’s simple directives and more of man’s appetite for secularized spirituality. While it is the responsibility of those in Christ to evangelize the world, even the apostles Peter and Paul and others, who were endowed with supernatural powers, weren’t able to convert the world by leaps and bounds. Matthew 18:20 states, “ For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.”

Your reference to “things have never been better” is justified by this FEEL-GOOD appeal. The Community Churches are not so much about making new converts as acquiring members from various denominational groups. The fact remains that 90% of church conflicts, mainly caused by the Community Church Movement, stems from worship issues. Passive pew sitting is NOT the culprit here. The COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT, along with Contemporary “Christian” Music and modern-day Charismatic spiritualism, IS THE CULPRIT!
===============================================~
Donnie Cruz

I appreciate your post very much. Many of these people really don't know the difference in doctrine and tradition. Some of them appear to be trying to make their own opinions of the way church services have been conducted as coming straight from the Bible and right out of the first century. It seems that some, especially Brothers Cruz and Sublett, believe that the way the assemblies were conducted at Madison for forty years were the way they were carried on in the Jerusalem church.

I hope you got through to these men, though I see from another post that you probably didn't. Keep up the good work and Godspeed to you and the wonderful Christians in the Madison church!

Liar, Liar, soul's on fire.

You MUST be a preacher or a MUSIC MEDIATOR replacing Jesus to just make up such evil spewing.

I don't think you remotelly understood the e-mail you were answering.

Don't be a "hidden one slinking away."

Ken

Jim, tradition or not, we really should care about DOCTRINE. In this day and time, political correctness is THE thing. And this is what you are trying to do here. Making a practical application of political correctness in a religious setting. Just because a religious move is the trend of the day does not mean it is correct. If I were you, I would just leave political correctness – which is often overemphasized and wrongly applied in society, anyway – where it belongs.

Brothers Cruz and Sublett have not added anything new to the scriptures. The contemporary transformers have, and they are the ones who try and try to improve upon God’s directives for Christians –- that is when they become man-made and man-manufactured. Please don’t condemn “the way the assemblies were conducted at Madison for forty years.” As far as gatherings of the disciples of Christ in the first century is concerned, I just CANNOT, for the life of me, visualize a “WORSHIP LEADER” (NOT EVEN AN APOSTLE OF CHRIST) like the one at Madison or in other churches ever conducting a MUSICAL concert or having a PRAISE TEAM performing complicated MUSICAL medleys or LEADING or “CALLING” the “regular” members to worship the Father in heaven! It’s just hard to believe that the apostles and early disciples had the luxury to practice and rehearse what they were to perform.

I hope that just those simple examples above will get through to your change-brainwashed mind! If you appreciate Dan [of the “Madison church” of ?????] that much, I think you really should appreciate and accept what the Bible teaches us even MORE.
=============================================================~
Donnie

Does a preacher rehearse his sermon before giving it?

Does a preacher "give a performance" when preaching? By that I mean, does he speak in tones that he would normally speak with, does he emphasize or repeat phrases when speaking in a normal conversation the same way he does when preaching?

Does a "song leader" rehearse the songs he leads? (Only those who have led singing need answer this one)

I say both of these men or women as the case may be PERFORM!

They BOTH rehearse, preachers do not preach in their normal speak, they empahsize with a loud voice and REPEAT points unlike normal conversation THAT IS A PERFORMANCE.

Song leaders go over their songs and the keys that they will sing them in BEFORE ever leading them. You may call this normal preparation, but preparation for what? A PERFORMANCE.

So, now that we have succinctly pointed out that preachers and song leaders are PERFORMERS also, I would say that your argument of "the performance" being unscriptural is absolutely wrong.

PM

The "preachers" I know can compile three years worth of sermons in a weekend retreat. That means that he shuffles 150 sermon outlines. With a little experience he can preach "My sermon which converted 20 in my last place: something has to be wrong with you because I expected some up fronters."

Paul told Timothy to "give attention to the public reading of the word, to exhortation (about what was read) and doctrine (contained in what was read." No rehearsing required. The church is synogogue or school of the Bible and not a performance platform for what we call PREACHING. In the Synagogue, the presiding elder could select anyone to stand up and READ the sermon.

"Although the sermon was NOT an essential part of the synagogue service, the translation and explanation of the Scripture lesson was a step in the direction of a preaching service. There is evidence that an exposition of the lesson formed a part of the Sabbath afternoon service. In earliest times the sermon seems to have been connected with the reading from the Prophets. Anyone able to instruct might be asked to preach (Acts 13:15). The preacher spoke from a SITTING position on an elevated place (Luke 4:20). (Pfeiffer, Charles F., Between the Testaments, Baker Book House, p. 63).

Jesus stood up to read and had the uncommon decency to SIT DOWN and dialog. You cannot rehearse worship in the Spirit. What you are describing is rank paganism.

So, if preachers have to rehearse they are engaged in Theatrical performance and two strong men should escort him out the back door.

"There sits the congregation, mute as in death. Here the godless choir and noisy fiddler fill the air with soulless strains, while the preacher, precious man, speaks his pretty piece of poetry as musically as possible by way of a solo, or as a sort of interlude." (Kurfees, p. 233).

One rehearsed sin Preaching about Tithing and almost always chopping up God's Holy Word does not give authority for another sin: Rehearsed singing which as Christ the Spirit composed the ONLY resource material was used to PREACH OR TEACH and--still a fact--you guys still try to divert from the FACT that the MUSIC word had no place in either the Jewish people's congregation, the Biblical pattern or the historical church.

Music was and is the theatrical performance and from the Towers of Babylon and UNIVERSALLY in pagan "religion" was to incite SODOMY which was the only way to "bring the worshipers into the highest spiritual presence of the 'gods'."

No performance preachers: no performance singers: The approved example of Jesus Christ was to "cast them out" MORE OR LESS VIOLENTLY or your own image is tarnished.

You have to be carefully prepared by Hollywood, Dollywood, Grand Ole Opry and TBN to get your spiritual lobotomy before you can stand to watch without stomach upset.

Ken Sublett

Get a life, Kenneth! Preachers have been rehearsing their sermons for years, long before the "contemporary christian" invasion ever started. From what you said in your previous post, you seem to think that the preaching of the gospel has no place in the gathering of the saints, only reading of the Word. Well, I guess that throws out Paul's exhortation to Timothy to "preach the word, be instant in season and out of season" (from the King James Version, aka "Holy Bible).
The more you write, the more foreign your beliefs sound. Have you ever told anybody on here just where you do go to church, or if you do? I can't imagine any church of Christ that you would ever be satisfied with. I'm glad you are not in the church I am in (which is very conservative). We have a preacher that rehearses his sermons and our songleader practices his songs at home before he comes to lead them. Our songleader leads a singing practice session before the worship service on Sunday nights, in which we learn new songs. I suppose that is not biblical either, since it is rehearsing the songs BEFORE they are sung in the service. Both our songleader and preacher are as sound doctrinally as any man I have ever known. Of course you probably would consider them among your theatrical performers, because they rehearse! How utterly absurd.

I am not liberal, by any stretch, but I do understand that we don't all see the Bible alike. I would not be comfortable in a church that has a praise team on stage, and that does many of the things you talk about in these posts (how you know so much about Madison when I understand you've NEVER been a member there is a mystery to me), but I have the good sense to know the difference in DOCTRINE and OPINION. You make everything DOCTRINAL. There is not one issue that you would not make doctrinal, it seems. And, incidentally, your sarcastic tone in your rebuttals is most unbecoming a christian. You and I probably have more commonality in beliefs than many of the others who post on this site, but I'll tell you, your spirit is the antithesis of what Jesus Christ himself ever stood for.

The preachers I grew up with were not theatrical performers. And just because WE always did it this way may need some checking.

The word preacher is:

Kerusso (g2784) kay-roos'-so; of uncert. affin.; to herald (as a public crier), espec. divine truth (the gospel): - preach (-er), proclaim, publish.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:14

And how shall they preach, except they be SENT? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things Rom 10:15

"In many cases heralds are very garrulous and inclined to exaggerate. They are thus in danger of giving false news. It is demanded then that they deliver their message as it is given to them.

"The essential point about the report which they give is that it does not originate with them ...The herald does not express his own views. He is the spokesman for his master... Being only the mouth of his master, he must not falsify the message entrusted to him by additions of his own." (Robinson, Homiletics, p. 804).

Mk.13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

1Th.2:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

Paul Revere was a HERALD. The GOSPEL has a GO imperative, a VERY LIMITED CONTENT and then the command to GO again. In the early historical churches (excepting "apostles") if he remained more than two or three days they pushed his GO button or found him a job: "if he will not work neither shall he eat" was applied by Paul to pretend eveangelists.

The GIFT in Ephesians 4 is EVANGELIST. In the local sense he is Pastor-Teacher or elder recognized because "he is already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." Fed if worthy: none of the OXEN etc figures apply to imported "youngers" just out of Infidelity University. No preacher and no elder has the authority to ADD PROGRAMS which multiply "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." He LOADS you dow with a 10% tax to pay for lies about tithing: He is against Christ.

Took 325 years before evangelists were paid and then from the king's gold box.

Rehearsing Fanny Crosby or Twila Paris or the inane, erotic kid stuff of the Praise Leader is no more evil then VIOLATING PAUL'S DIRECT COMMAND and REPUDIATING Lord Jesus Christ (the Spirit in the Prophets) by telling the watching world just like all "musical" parables in the Bible: "We DON'T CARE what Jesus said."

There is no command to SING in the entire Bible: the DIRECT COMMAND is to PREACH or TEACH, the ONLY CHRISTIAN resource is "that which is written" (Rom 15), "the Spirit" (Eph 5) or the "Word of Christ" (Col 3:16).

"Singing" was a secular activity and "melody or psallo" spoke, like the SOP Jesus fed the musical Judas, "grinding the enemy into a fine powder" or "Psalloing a man's head off with a sword."

That is why Philo already knew and Paul's direct command and the early practice, was to let the CARNAL AND DESTRUCTIVE "singing" be IN THE HEART and directed to God.

Jesus said that ONLY PLACE God seeks worsipers is in the Human Spirit or Mind giving heed to the Word.

The same Paul said: "Til I come, give attendance to the (public) reading of the Word, to exhortation (about that read word), to doctrine (included in that Word). 1 Ti 4:13.

Scripture is NOT determined by what I DO or DO NOT DO.

"DIALEGOMAI primarily denotes to ponder, resolve in one's mind; then, to converse, dispute, discuss, discourse with; most frequently, to reason or dispute with." In Acts 20:7 and 9 "the A.V. (KJV) translates it 'preached,' this the R.V. corrects to 'discoursed,' lit., 'dialogued,' i.e. not by way of a sermon, but by a discourse of a more conversational character." (Vine, p. 319).

"to say thoroughly, i.e. discuss (in argument or exhortation):--dispute, preach, reason, speak" (Strong)

Like the pagan "teams" controversy I have the Bible and ALL of church history on my side: they have an oracle down in the fuzz of their belly button: apparently. The same is true of a local FAMILY with a SURROGATE preacher who, to survive, has to silence all of the other aspirers to Billy Goat hill which is often a wheelless Cadillac.

http://www.piney.com/ChMinistry.html

Ken Sublett

As usual, Sublett's aimless meandering and juxtipositioning of texts to make the Book say what he wants it to say. Do you ever answer anyone's posts, or do you always go off on tangents?

Answer for all of us:

Where do you attend worship? Or do you worship at home? Do you have a church affilliation? Can you please just answer that?

And after you answer that, how about telling me if the church where you attend sings songs or not. Because if they do, then by your own theology (i.e. the Bible does not mention "sing" as a command) you are condeming your own soul. If you don't go to church then you violate Hebrews 10:25 in the matter of assembling together. Please don't take me through your drivel about the purpose of assembling. Kenneth, I know what you think about that. Just tell me how you ever found a church that is pleasing to you. I am not mad at you, I don't even know you. But in 50 years of being in the church of Christ, I have never heard anyone in any congregation of the Lord's church that has espoused the strange ideas that you have. Please try to answer this post and not get into the greek, hebrew, latin, etc., as that has no bearing on my questions in this post.

Thanks,
Jim

Let's make our own rules AS IF we had been freed from "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals" by Lord Jesus Christ. Ok?

Ichthys was Dagon, the fish god of Babylonia, and was just another name for Bacchus/Tammuz. Bacchus and Zeus were the Abomination of Desolation in the temple in the intertestament period. I can fill you in more if you want more text AND pictures. Zeus/Bacchus used music INSIDE of the temple. And the end-time LOCUSTS whose STING is in their TAILS and leave running sores as a MARK are MUSICAL PERFORMERS in the Greek version imposed on the Jews and warned about by John as the Babylon Whore with music and musicians.

There are two HONEST RESPONSES: "you are crazy and here is the proof." Or, you might ask why you spend a grand a sermon. Does that make ME crazy for claiming that both TITHING and THE LAW OF GIVING is a scam or should you ask for proof so that you can REPENT for letting any human IMPOSE a 10% TAX on you when fully half are exempted from any income tax by a more 'Christian' government.

Now here was my MAJOR PITCH about performance ANYTHING in the church which is synagogue and NOT a pagan worship center where "Preaching is one of the ACTs of the five part drama." If I tell you that preachers are SENT and can say "Thus saith the Lord" then you are accusing Christ the Spirit with being crazy:

The word preacher is:

Kerusso (g2784) kay-roos'-so; of uncert. affin.; to herald (as a public crier), espec. divine truth (the gospel): - preach (-er), proclaim, publish.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:14

And how shall they preach, except they be SENT? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things Rom 10:15

Now,both preaching, singing with unlawful (MUSIC either a Castrado or instrumental) as well as STUDY BOOKS teaching lies makes it impossible for many baby boomers (infantile drummers) to break a big problem down into little solvable problems.

Little problem to solve:

A preacher is a herald: a herald does not add to, subtract from or FURTHER EXPOUND (private interpret) a letter sent from President Bush to Congress. If he did in the secular world the HERALD WAS WORTHY of death.

Now: do you grasp that a PREACHER is sent on a mission, accomplishes it and moves on?

Those who have NOT HEARD cannot call on God (in baptism) unless they have heard. If there are maybe 1.2 million left in the churches of Christ there are 5 billion who have not heard: they will be 9 billion while "church" or "kirke" named after the holy whore is still building towers of Babel.

Is it so utterly insane to repeat Paul who says: "they cannot believe that which they have NOT heard"? I would be happy to tutor you on that LITTLE POINT.

Next, The inspired TEXT which does not inform your sermons, songs or classes says: "They cannot HEAR unless the HERALD is SENT." Know the difference between STAY and SENT?

If that is incomprehensible then I will send you my little girl kindergartener who instructed me about dating my checks 2003 to tutor you.

Is it comprehensible to you that "they cannot hear unless YOU send someone to PREACH the first principles to them"? If so, they why are you giving your hard earned money to have shirkers lie to you?

Now, if your education from sermonizing, classifying and versifying has occured in the last half century then you might have an excuse for thinking that MY quotation of Scripture is STRANGE.

Kno what I think? I think that you know what I am saying is correct SCRIPTURALLY but YOU have been Hegeled (Hitlered or Machiavellied) to CLAIM that what the church of Christ has always believed B.S. (Before Shelly) is radical and wicked. I have reviewed 13 of the latest SWARM on my home page who claim that the non-instrumental church of Christ which has NEVER used instruments for 2,000 years became SECTARIAN and SOWED DISCORD when they RESISTED the infiltrating, diverting and lying about Scripture and ALL of church history.

Here is the illogic which is PREDESTINATED LYING works.

1. Civilized people have not allowed people to deficate in the corner of the living room for 2,000 years.

2. But "I" insist on DEFICATING in your living room even if you object.

3. Finally, my living room is not fit for HUMAN habitation because it has been CONFISCATED by the BEAST people.

4. So, I give up my 5 million dollar "house" and leave.

5. But the BEAST people accuse me of SECTARIANISM and SOWING DISCORD for (A) objecting to THEIR stealing my house, and (B) for quoting the "Laws of Sanitation" not to mention minimal laws of common ethics by which HUMAN people live.

6. So, I leave my hard earned property to the BEASTS who love to crap on the carpet. Suddenly, they have trouble attracting even BEAST people to their "Venue for Rock and Roll" (One of those "F" words).

7. So, they mount a FRONTAL ATTACK on my NEW property where we don't crap on the sofa. They claim that since we don't FELLOWSHIP the polluters (In Hebrew: play the flute, pollute and prostitute is from the same word) by allowing them to BRING THEIR singers (prostitutes around the temple) and musicians (Sodomites around the temple)into our new crap-free building that we are "fratricidal or brother killers, fire bombers or worse according to Shelly at ACU."

8. So, now they have invaded the SECOND SAFE HAVEN from those who DON'T love the smell and intend to take over again and "shoot you in the heart and blame the victim for squirting blood on the dispensers of human excrement."

That is TRUTH or it is a LIE and it has nothing to do with ME or THEE. This push is again a steadfast REJECTION of the Spirit of Christ by claiming that quoting His inspired words are proof of my strangeness.

If you are hearing new and unique things don't ask a "doctor of the Law" because Jesus said: "They take away the key to knowledge." Can you grasp that?

Ken Sublett.

Dear preacherman,

Obviously, you did not grasp what I said about rehearsing. “As far as gathering of the disciples of Christ in the first century is concerned, I just CANNOT … visualize a “WORSHIP LEADER” … like the one at Madison or in other churches ever conducting a MUSICAL concert or having a PRAISE TEAM performing complicated MUSICAL medleys….” That’s what I said.

There’s really no sense in going further with this discussion, unless we realize a number of New Testament facts: (1) that a WORSHIP LEADER was never appointed to mediate between the believers and the Father in heaven -- apostles, prophets, evangelists, elders and teachers were given “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” according to Ephesians 4:11,12; (2) that MUSIC or MUSICAL PERFORMANCE was NEVER an act or activity in worship (sorry, no scripture passage available); (3) that the gathering of disciples as exemplified in Acts 20:7 was really SIMPLE -- for the observance of the Lord’s Supper and the teaching or preaching of God’s word. We are to “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING with grace in your hearts to the Lord” (Colossians 3:16). In other words, singing (NOT MUSIC) may also accomplish the objective of teaching.

In essence, I was speaking of the performance issue in regard to the PRAISE TEAM doing the MUSICAL to the congregation. The issue becomes more complicated when there’s some feel-good cheerleading, when there’s rehearsed handclapping to go along. Totally unnecessary and annoying to others in reverent worship! Handclapping, even if it is for the purpose of expressing joy (more like INDUCED joy, huh), is programmed and rehearsed, and is no different than an instrumental stimulation (simulation, excuse me). You would think that an intelligent human being would know when unfeigned joy that causes one to “clap for joy” is spontaneous and un-rhythmical. When it becomes other than “singing with grace in your hearts” in order to teach and admonish one another, the MUSICAL PERFORMANCE is nothing but “HOLY” ENTERTAINMENT or MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

No, preacher-man! “… We have NOT succinctly pointed out that preachers and song leaders are PERFORMERS also.” Besides, that was not the argument. Indeed, the New Testament is succinct in pointing out that we let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, with singing (NOT MUSIC) as one avenue to accomplish this. Please rediscover for yourself how the Old Testament describes MUSICAL WORSHIP and what it was associated with.

Question: Do you mean that you know of congregations of the church with women preachers and song leaders who rehearse to “PERFORM”?
==============================================~
Donnie

Yes, preachers probably do rehearse before hand and song leaders also but the worship service is not about preacher, prayer leader, song leader, etc. PERFORMING, it is about congregational PARTICIPATION. The PREACHER is a TEACHER and THOUGHT PROVOKER. While the definition of PERFORM may apply to some aspects of his task as well as the song leader, I believe the point to be moot.
Anything that creates a WORLDLY ENTERTAINING environment in worship does no belong. A group of people singing into microphones on the front row or the stage de-emphasizes participation and emphasizes listening. It is also separational for the assembly. A SONG LEADER is only a SONG STARTER and ORGANIZER.

I think not Mr Bennet. Much of the GRANDSTANDING around here has to do with DRAWING ATTENTION or PERFORMING. The point IS NOT moot. You cannot get away with explaining as such. The same way a praise team "performs" and draws attention to itself is the SAME way a preacher or song leader does, it is just that it is several more people.

Just admit that you cannot separate the two example of performance and AGREE with the FACT that it is strictly PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

It does not matter anyway. They are not going away, only proliferating. You cannot get away from it. Just learn to live with it. If you would just open up your heart and let God's Spirit work, I think you would see that the people on the praise team are honestly NOT trying to draw attention to themselves, they are merely worshiping as you are. If you cannot seem to personally prefer it, then as "brother" donnie says, go find a church you can worship in, and stop the COMPLAINING.

mooooooooooot.

Have you noticed how often Scripture connects both good and evil people to BEASTS? Well, Lucifer or ZOE was called the BEAST: the "female instructing principle." Eve came to be worshiped as the FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE and Paul warned you about PERFORMING "authority" which is ALWAYS Sexual and Erotic.

The book of Enoch explains all of the key players in the Bible in terms of animals. Most often between BLACK COWS and Red or White cows.

When I heard you "mooooing" my Hard Drive scanned to the book of Amos. I can always detect by the whiney piney slap when a BLACK COW is MOOOOOING.

Like Eve (Zoe), pagan women are ALWAYS at the root of trying to return to the old greener pastures where the BEASTS ate grass. Miriam (from Bitterness) repeated the singing, clapping, dancing and sistruming of Egypt:

"Het Heret was the over-arching sky COW Goddess, associated with fertility and bounty and plenty. Married couples would go to the temples of Het Heret for fertility rites that would hopefully lead to a successful pregnancy. The temples were filled with sweet smelling incense. Typically sweets and red beer or golden ale would flow freely. The priestesses of Het Heret would dance to the rhythms of LIVE DRUMMING. When the couples were sufficiently aroused, they would engage in sexual intercourse on comfortable pillows.

"The priestesses would often enter into an altered state of consciousness during erotic dance, becoming the Goddess manifest in human form. On occasion the priestesses would experience compelling spiritual visions while in this erotically charged state. RESOURCE: Bast (cat goddess) and LESBIANS.

Remember old AMOS your unlawful and often lawless preachers lie about?

HEAR this word, ye kine (cows) of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. Am.4:1
---The Lord God hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks. Amos 4:2
---And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast them into the palace, saith the Lord. Amos 4:3
---"Come to Bethel and transgress, At Gilgal multiply transgression; Bring your sacrifices every morning, Your TITHES every three DAYS. Amos 4:4

Your worshipers of the STARRY HOST and let you bring yours EVER 7 DAYS.

--Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Amos 5:23
--But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

--That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David; Amos 6:5
--That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph. Amos 6:6
--Therefore now shall they go captive with the first that go captive, and the banquet of them that stretched themselves shall be removed. Amos 6:7

The MARK that they were repeating the MUSICAL IDOLATRY of Mount Sinai for which God sentenced them to worship starry hosts such as Saturn (666) was IMPOSED by the BLACK COWS over God and His Word. In the end, the feminine or EFFEMINATE hostile takeover led to their children starving for the Word of God but they could NEVER find it. Their sentence was to go into Babylonian captivity under the beginning and end-time WHORE but her music and musicians would return to hell with her and from which Lucifer brought them. She is ZOE: she lives in Nashville, a city set on seven hills.

HERE IS WHERE WE ARE REPEATING THE BOOK OF ENOCH WHO DEFINES "MUSIC" AS THE CAUSE FOR WHICH GOD WILL COME WITH HIS TEN THOUSAND SAINTS TO JUDGE: Chapter 85

1 Again I looked attentively, while sleeping, and surveyed heaven above.
2 And behold a single STAR fell from heaven.
3 Which being raised up, ate and fed among those cows.
4 After that I perceived other large and black cows; and behold all of them changed their stalls and pastures, while their young began to lament one with another. Again I looked in my vision, and surveyed heaven;
when behold I saw many stars which descended,
and projected themselves from heaven to where the first star was,
5 Into the midst of those young ones; while the COWS were with them, feeding in the midst of them.
6 I looked at and observed them; when behold, they all acted after the manner of horses, and began to approach the young cows, all of whom became pregnant, and brought forth elephants, camels, and ASSES.
7 At these all the cows were alarmed and terrified; when they began biting with their teeth, swallowing, and striking with their horns.
8 They began also to devour the cows; and behold all the children of the earth trembled, shook with terror at them, and suddenly fled away.

While you are MOOOOOING watch out for the fallen STARS performing among you. The "first" Star came equipped with musical instruments and was known as the "harp playing and singing prostitute."

Not moot: prophecy is that ALL of the religion worshiping 'church' or Kirke or Circe the Holy Whore John knew about will be having a musical, charismatic orgasm (as Carol Wimber, your holy mother preaches) when you wake up and discover that Apollo's Locusts (musical performers with stings in their TAILS) have SEPARATED OUT those marked with the Word of God.

At the Temple in Jerusalem, the Abomination of Desolation was Zeus-Dionysus worship:

'The worship of Dionysus spread the WINE cult throughout the world, the Bacchae of the Goat-like Bacchus (from Buccus - BUCK - male goat) joined the Sibyls of Thrace who were known as Sabazius. Sabazius was a Cretan demigod from which the Greeks got the name ZEUS.

"The rites of Cybele were hugely popular, her festivals (ludi, 'games') faithfully attended, full of singing and playing of the double flute and kythara, along with Cybele's musical inventions: the pan pipes, cymbals, and tympanum. These last three were always used for sacred music. Her great Solstice festival contributed the 'Christmas' tree.

Now, you can MOOOOO on.

Ken Sublett

I do not want to sound harsh but I can't think of a more subtle way to say this.
I usually would not respond to such silly, un-intelligent, PERSONAL PREFERENCE articles, but, the "PERSONAL PREFERENCES" you and others speak of are the ones being implemented by people who want to change the standards by which the Church of Christ was founded on to comform to the standards of Worldly Entertainment, Human WANTS and DESIRES. It is "THE BIG SHOW" to attract the almighty dollar through the HUMAN SENSES and it is my SPIRITUAL PREFERENCE not to be a part of it.
I have already found a Church where I can worship in SPIRIT AND TRUTH but I'll never stop complaining about Spirituality being replaced by Carnality.

Romans 16:17-18 "Now I urge you brethren, note those who cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ but their own belly and by smooth words and flattering speech DECEIVE THE HEARTS OF THE SIMPLE."

JUDE 17-19 "But you beloved remember the words which were spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ: how they told you that there would be mockers in the last time who would walk according to their own ungodly lusts. These are SENSUAL PERSONS who cause divisions, not having the Spirit."

II Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore brethren, stand fast and hold the TRADITIONS which you were taught, whether by word or letter".

My mind is NOT change brain-washed. As a matter of fact, you and I would probably agree on most matters discussed in this site. I attend a very conservative Church of Christ and would not feel comfortable in a church with a praise team or other things that you mention here. But, you know, those things are a matter of opinion and not DOCTRINE.

I can't imagine a first century church that met in the temple square in Jerusalem having a man get up and make announcements and extend a welcome, then someone stand up and lead 3 0r 4 songs, have a prayer, and then have a sermon, then communion - or was it communion then a sermon. The bottom line is, we don't know exactly how everything was carried out in those churches. Some of them met in homes, some met in caves, some by the river - that much we do know. Very little exists beyond that to let us know what they did, other than to sing, pray, preach/teach, give, and have the Lord's supper. HOW they did it, we really don't know (though you and Brother Sublett seem to have insights that apparently no one in many centuries have been given).

Our inability to comprehend something happening in the church of the first century has little bearing on whether it happened or not. And it doesn't make it a sin either.

You two (Don and Ken) are so preoccupied with the performance thing that it has clouded your whole perception. Anyway, if you are still going to Madison, where they are not doing things the way you cnscientiously believe they should be done, then, my brother, when you take the Lord's Supper there, you are eating and drinking damnation to your soul, because you surely cannot partake in a worthy manner. As I said, I could not attend the Madison church because of some of the very things you cite. For me to do so would be to violate my conscience. If you are attending and participating, then you are sinning because you are taking part in those things that violate your conscience. If you are attending and not participating, then you are still sinning, because you are not worshipping, and worship on the Lord's day is a direct command. I'm not attempting to change your mind on anything, because I basically agree with most of what you say on here (not with HOW you say it). I am very very conservative and consider that to be the safest way. But, you cannot possibly be pleasing to yourself or to God if you are still attending a church where you disagree with most of what is going on (at least in the worship).

How funny! Now those of us that are conservative in their beliefs are now seeing the real agents of division for what they are. I say "us" because it is my sincere belief that matters of opinion NOT doctrine seperate us. I consider "Jim" a brother and I hope he considers me a sister. What does is say to you (DC & KS) when even those who don't feel comfortable worshiping in Madison's contemporay environment, think you make little or no sense. Incidentally, my sources tell me that Kenneth Sublett "attends" a church in Holenwald, TN...but he sits in the lobby throughout the entire service. Of course, those were the same sources that told me that he was an alcoholic ...but you can't believe everything you hear or read...as this website so readily proves.

Donnie, I saw you leave the balcony Sunday morning after church...you were grinning from ear to ear...just like a lot of others. Why was it that I knew that your happy state of mind wasn't induced by the same thing as everyone else? Of course, you had new fuel for your little roast, didn't you? BTW you, as usual, you didn't get the point about Dr. White's sermon. (more likly, it was that you wouldn't be caught dead AGREEING with ANYTHING said at Madison.) He was talking about the kind of person God could use. The kind of (contrite) heart required. The focus that was required. You need to seriously look at the comments that "Jim" made about your motivations for attending the services at Madison. There are five congregations within a 5 mile radius that would come close to being the "Utopian Church" you seem to have in mind. Could it be that you aren't welcome there? Perhaps they don't want you to "pick them apart" as you have those of us a Madison? Hey "Jim", would you invite Donnie over to the congregation where you attend? I think he needs a break...I know those of us at Madison could use one. I think I'm beginning to understand Paul's sentiments about a "thorn in the flesh", except ours in located about three feet below our heads! Seriously, Donnie...if it's that much of a problem for you, then why do you allow your daughters(?) to attend with you? Aren't you scared they'll become INFECTED? Of course, if they learn to be as critical and judgmental as you've been of us...they're already infected with the seeds of self-righteousness. Sorry to ramble folks but enough is enough!

Dearest, T. Melt on, Honey Bucket of Truth:

You need to apologize to me. I just SAVED you from the VIPER'S DEN where liars and thieves burn forever along with their musicians and musical instruments. (Is 14:11).

Now, if you are using a REAL NAME rather than "slinking away" we can identify you as a fraud and a liar. Unfortunately, neither the Babylon whore, the musicians or instruments MELTED ON the bed of maggots: they just last and last and last.

First Exposure: you could easily have read my telling the FORUM that I once had two choices: First, my daughters forced me to buy 3,500 dollar hearing aids. I was enthralled when I discovered that I could PLUG EM IN AND TURN EM OFF and STILL hear the preacher from half way back to escape being baptized with SPIT (a Catholic invention.)

Or "MELT ON" the fires, I could run to the foyer and STILL be overwhelmed by the sound and fury of Sanging and Preaching all of that garbage brain stuff. You read that which was HONESTLY POSTED and you HEARD NOTHING FROM NOBODY. If you are a CONSERVATIVE then I fear you as much as a LIBERAL.

Second proof of LYING: I broke contact with Hohenwald Church 6 years ago in and cannot remotely remember when I last attended there: over two years ago. Had not contributed nor listened to what I could escape long before that. So, you have a MYSTERIOUS informant or YOU are lying. I say that YOU ARE LYING and that means that you are part of the infiltrate and divert TEAM. You have to be Biblically Literate before you can advance to being EITHER a liberal or a conservative.

I left before their GREAT LEAP forward MULTIPLYING MINISTRY grew the ATTENDANCE from about 350 to 222. Just like Madison, ALL conservative churches have been afflicted with the AIDS VIRUS as WEEPING ULCEROUS SORES (Re 16:11) as one of the MARKS of the Babylon Whore.

Out of PROMISE KEEPERS 96 where up to 40,000 (clergy) got infected at Atlanta, and out of Jubilee where SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE got its SECOND INCARNATION as a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER, I would guess that MOST churches have been exposed. Old Holenwald (aka Hohenwald: High Forest: home of The Little Dead Church in the High Woods) came home with 4 (four) non-functional PILLARS or Phallic symbols, labeled itself a FAMILY OF GOD, SAT DOWN the olden "song leaders" and selected a Musical Worship Minister and even spat out: 'we are a purpose driven church.'

Third proof of LYING: There is no one in the Hole-in-the-wall gang who has even had a clue that I drink even "pale beer." Tried to make a sourdough starter, it turned to alcohol and I threw it out. So, Melt On, you just made that up. Gallup says that preachers MAKE UP 80% of their "first person experience stories." That is ok for preachers, Melt On, but for the rest of us that is called LYING.

Supporting proof: if you read any of my stuff you notice that a PRIMARY EMPHASIS is the NEW WINESKIN which is a DITTO HEAD of The Vineyard Movement. The musical Praise Team (the oldest superstition) was adopted in MANY churches of Christ because Carol Wimber the Mother promises you a SEXUAL CLIMAX Just before the fourth act of worship, Giving of Means. Many ancient resources applaud the Visual and Literal orgasm as PROOF that you have KNOWN THE GODS PERSONALLY. If you are singing Fanny Crosby or Twila Paris or your Team Leader's instead of The Words of Christ then you ARE neither a church of Christ NOR conservative. If the emphasis is on MUSIC instead of TEACHING then you are part of the Babylon Whore of Revelation 18. Her name is Kirke (Greek) or Circe (Latin) which translates to CHURCH. The Ekklesia was a school of the Bible.

I have written extensively on the fact that it is BLASPHEMY to claim that Jesus EVER drank intoxicating wine or that He ever manufactured 180 GALLONS for an about to become pregnant bride. Your Thought Leader Rubel Shelly used our intolerance of WINE 8 times in a short lecture at ACU where they SELL non instrumental churches to the Disciples. The point was that not fellowshiping WINEDRINKERS or MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS justified the RACA word. Of course, the wineskins is an ancient, predestinated MARK to tell the DISCIPLES when to jump from the Worship Ark made of mud.

I at times get intoxicated on my 50/50 mixture of caf/decaf coffee but YOU have never heard that I take a sip of beer (for the last half century) much less being an alcoholic. Just LIES, LIES, LIES. You are being Hegeled and it doesn't FEEL good does it?

Here is your loss of fire insurance:

"Of course, those were the SAME SOURCES that told me that he was an alcoholic ...but you can't believe everything you hear or read...as this website so readily proves."

Sorry, Melt On, but I wanted you posted to PROVE that just as your unlawful CLERGY lies about any form of music or about TITHING or the LAW OF GIVING or SINGING AS AN ACT or PREACHING AS WORSHIP, you are a visible symbol of what we are writing about and just have no qualms about making up lies. The LOCUSTS of the end time have stings in their TAILS: in the Greek world they were MUSICAL PERFORMERS. The ADVERSARY works PRIMARILY by slander, lying. Lying is Dying: wave goodby T Melt On.

I read you as a clappy-singy BOY. Right? God KNOWS your name!

Jim, like you, PRETENDS that he cannot spell ABC because he knows that I quote the Bible and FREE preachers who UNIVERSALLY connected MUSIC with HOMOSEXUAL, pagan worship. Neither are honest, neither are conservative, both are part of the Infiltrate and Divert which means "lying." I will take the alcohol test any time, day or night: will you?

Frankly, I am shocked to see how SLOWLY people catch on to the fact that I DON'T FLY ON EITHER flapping wing. Did you know that some insects CANNOT FLY. So, how do they? Well, the LEFT WING CLAPS against the RIGHT WING and all of the AIR (HOT) TURBULANCE just shoots them up into the air. Like, Wow! Maybe you have been caught between the clapps?

Ken Sublett

So you heard it here people. Donnie Cruz, I hope you are listening! The man that you defend many times in posts on this site has just put you and Keith Lancaster, Rubel Shelley, conservatives, liberals, and all, in the same camp. Let's see, he says he fears liberals as well as conservatives. So I guess Kenneth, that you are the only one that has the truth and the ONLY one in several centuries that will grace the portals of heaven.

Wake up conservatives in the church of Christ. This man is not on the side of those who want to "speak where the Bible speaks." He lets Josephus, and various "FREE preachers" speak for him. Don't let him speak as the voice of conservative members of the Lord's church.

Thanks,

Jim

Jim, you JUST DON'T GET IT.

I could care less what RELIGIONISTS think or say about me. Gutenberg came and preachers would not go away. Now the Internet came and the preachers will not go away.

Not to worry, old Dagon worshiper: the FLOCK is flapping away nipped in the tender parts by an effete church and effeminate music which came from Satan: there is NO OTHER RECORD.

Jim, a Christian is a DISCIPLE or student of Christ through the Bible. A faithful (neither conservative extreme or liberal extreme) ASSEMBLY is a SCHOOL and not a pagan WORSHIP CENTER. All (spelled ALL are afflicted with the "worship" virus).

Liberals and Conservatives and Christians be aware that Saturn (666) is identified by the FISH SYMBOL:

"Thus, then, it is evident that, in popular opinion, the original Lateinos had occupied the very same position as Saturn did in the Mysteries, who was equally worshipped as the "offspring of the SUN."

Moreover, it is evident that the Romans knew that the name "Lateinos" signifies the "Hidden One," for their antiquarians invariably affirm that Latium received its name from Saturn "lying hid" there. On etymological grounds, then, even on the testimony of the Romans, Lateinos is equivalent to the "Hidden One"; that is, to Saturn, the "god of Mystery." *

* Latium Latinus (the Roman form of the Greek Lateinos), and Lateo, "to lie hid," all alike come from the Chaldee "Lat," which has the same meaning. The name "lat," or the hidden one, had evidently been given, as well as Saturn, to the great Babylonian god.

"This is evident from the name of the fish Latus, which was worshipped along with the Egyptian Minerva, in the city of Latopolis in Egypt, now Esneh (WILKINSON), that fish Latus evidently just being another name for the fish-god DAGON. Samson "ground" in the kings house before he wrecked old Dagon: grinding was the work of the musical concubine where "concubine" is also translated "musician."

"We have seen that Ichthys, or the Fish, was one of the names of Bacchus; and the Assyrian goddess Atergatis, with her son Ichthys is said to have been cast into the lake of Ascalon.

"That the sun-god Apollo had been known under the name of Lat, may be inferred from the Greek name of his mother-wife Leto, or in Doric, Lato, which is just the feminine of Lat.

"The Roman name Latona confirms this, for it signifies "The lamenter of Lat," as Bellona signifies "The lamenter of Bel." The Indian god Siva, who, as we have seen, is sometimes represented as a child at the breast of its mother, and has the same bloody character as Moloch, or the Roman Saturn, is called by this very name, as may be seen from the following verse made in reference to the image found in his celebrated temple at Somnaut: (and at Jerrusalem).

People like Shelly and Madison and my stolen church home in Seattle stolen by lying, cheating and stealing learned in NASHVILLE incited me to begin my MINISTRY which really got listed 41/2 years ago.

I can tell you that I have scholarly links all over the known world but NOT ONE CONSERVATIVE church of Christ (whatever that means). With 3,057,000 page hits to date you just watch the Left clapper and the Right clapper read ME and not people lying about music and tithing and collection plates and singing and led prayers and sermonizing and VIOLATING Paul's DIRECT COMMAND that what pagans called EXTERNAL SINGING he defined as PREACHING AND TEACHING one another with the WORD.

I trully appreciate the BAD PRESS! But remember: Conservatives, Liberals and Christians: the FISH SYMBOL tips you off to Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) or Saturn whose Chaldee number is 666.

Jim, I learned about Inanna the musical prostitute from documents 2,000 years older than Moses. Moses wrote to WARN you about the RISING UP TO PLAY. Why do YOU defend the MUSICAL WORSHIPERS knowing that Inanna also stole the GIFT OF THE ELDERSHIP and SOWING DISCORD AMONG PEACABLE BROTHERS. Do your elders REALLY know? Is there a SECRET team in your church?

Ken, mature enough to know that all that I know I learned from some of those OLDEN GUYS Who lived B.S.

No secret team in our congregation. ...........

=============================
Message From The Moderator

Sorry James:

Your No Name pit bull License is up! ..Permanently

Jim, Jim, thou doest hallucinate: too much NEW WINE from a new WINESKIN. How can sanity say that Donnie is lumped with you or Shelly. You sound like a PREACHER MAN? Like T. Melt On you are just dissociated from grasping that someone has OUTED you guys hoping to spread the PERFORMANCE VIRUS.

Oh, Jim, Jim, a P.S. about knowing it all: an old story with a creative twist.

Ken and Jim are hiking on a mountain trail. Ken looks around and sees a grizzly.

Ken sits down, takes off his hiking boots and puts on his running shoes.

Jim, stuttering, "Why are you putting on your running shoes: you cannot outrun a grizzly."

Ken: Duh! "Jim, I dont' have to: all I have to do is outrun YOU."

Get the point, Huh? Huh? I don't need to know much to know more than Jim about "music." And I can GUARANTEE from reading MOST of the "study books" that there may not be ONE PREACHER MAN who has studied the Old Testament enough to grasp the "music" concept. I invite any and all to preach us your "Gopher Wood Sermon."

Having said that, I would wager a Fifth of Old Madison that I have collected the world's largest body of literature about the use of MUSIC IN WORSHIP. Know what? Not one tittle which does not associate both secular singing and music with perverted religion (i.e. worship). Nope, Jim! The Levites were Mocking the type of Lord Jesus. Their "praise" was to "make themselves vile." Kno dat? Huh?

Both conservatives and liberals can equally well focus on the MUSIC of Paul's direct commandment (which ain't there) and TOTALLY ignore Paul's subject of PREACHING the INSPIRED BIBLICAL TEXT one to another. Neither Fanny, Twila nor Keith wrote ANY of that. Kno dat? Huh? Huh? If you can find ONE (1) conservative church of Christ practicing Paul's direct command as well as many Reformed churches and many others throughout the world I WILL TAKE IT ALL BACK.

Then, Your Choice: we can also get you a billy goat skin bloated with New Wine in an OLD SKIN. The OLD SKIN was A priesthood, Tithing, Loud noise (music) and a "pyramidal ministry structure" added as a CURSE to the abandoned Israelites. Probably can get that from south of town. Oh, Jim, Jim: I just cannot BEAR to tell you what the musical women as holy whores put IN the wine!!

There I go getting punchy on coffee and chocolate again.

Ken

Kenny. All this talk of new wine and wineskins and sexuality...hmmmmmm lends one's mind to wondering about you.

You DON'T have it all figured out. In fact your RAMBLINGS and RANTINGS make me wonder about your sobriety sometimes. I think that the 1/2 decaf 1/2 caf coffee is affecting your thinking skills, or maybe it is just age.

It is funny how no one on here is allowed to put into posts the criticism and unholy hatred that you are allowed on a regular basis. Well I guess that just goes to show the bias that exists here. You are given the right to hatefully take people to task while making NO SENSE, while others who make valid arguments are "shouted down" by your HIRELINGS here or just plain edited out. SHAME SHAME "mr. moderator".

NW

Oh no, I would never invite Don to the church I attend. Although they would be welcomed in, I'm sure it would not be long before he found something to harp (pardon the pun) about at our congregation. You see, even though we are conservative, we realize that our perfection comes only from being in Christ, not in precisely correct doctrine. We do stand for what we believe the Bible teaches, but we don't spend a lot of time condeming those who differ with us, it is just not worth it to do that. I'm sure that philosophy right there would be enough to set him off. Our elders would not stand by for one minute and allow him to do in our congregation what he is doing on this website. They are very conservative, that's true, but they know the seeds of divisiveness when they see it, and they won't tolerate that. His beliefs are not the issue, it is his manner of holding to the beliefs. Basically he is a sectarian.

BTW, I'm sure if this post clears the moderators, that I'll get a good tongue lashing over it. Bring it on, I can take it!

I will make this one very short: my tongue is worn out LAPPING up the booze T. Melt On's "informant" in Hohenwald claims. Just about nap time. I know that she/he (Lucifer was both) lies and also defends you: I hope that you denounce her or be implicated.

First, you miss the point that Mad Madison WAS Donnie's church BEFORE the LOCUSTS with stings in their tail "infiltrated and diverted." Your elders have ABSOLUTELY NO AUTHORITY to do ANYTHING but "teach the Word as it has been taught." The Madison's leaders let the musical polluters in hoping to ATTRACT commerce to save their TEMPLE. Why is it that Donnie has LOST his right to keep on MARKING those who became MUSICALLY SECTARIANS, Deliberately Sowed Discord and bought into the Anti-Christ, Purpose Driven Cult?

This is the ONLY meaning when someone uses the word: SECTARIAN. They mean if you object then you ARE SECTARIAN for resisting MY goal to change YOUR church.

In fact a SECTARIAN is one who "changes the views nominally held by an organization for a long period of time and usually for some VESTED interest." The one upon whom changes are IMPOSED cannot with honesty and Webster be called Sectarian and that is a RACA accusation.

Donnie did not CHANGE the Biblical order at Madison so I suggest that is DISHONEST to blame him for the hole in the heart from T. Melt On's bullet. A very perverse self-selected group SHOT Donnie in the heart and "stole the church house of many widows" and you have the audacity to blame Donnie for continuing to TEACH THE WORD. I don't believe that 'conservative' garbage for a microsecond. You just want the TEACHERS OF TRUTH to shut up while music is added. If Donnie keeps it up until the Lord comes and catches everyone in blaming the victime then he could NEVER be the Sectarian. To make the claim can mean nothing OTHER than the fact that the false accusers want to PROMOTE the Madison hostile takeover.

John Locke is hated by all of the anti-sectarians because he was a better Bible scholar and repudiates their upside down illogic:

"But if they say that the articles which they require to be professed are consequences deduced from the Scripture,

"it is undoubtedly well done of them who believe and profess such things as seem unto them so agreeable to the rule of faith.

"But it would be very ill done to OBTRUDER those things upon others unto whom they do not seem to be the indubitable doctrines of the Scripture;

"and to make a separation for such things as these, which neither are nor can be fundamental,

"IS TO BECOME HERETICS (SECTARIANS).

Those who SOWED DISCORD and added PERFORMANCE SINGING which is anti-Biblical and Anti-Christ's Word MADE THE SEPARATION in fact. Those who left did not SEPARATE from their church but from rank, perverse paganism.

No one but the OBTRUDERS can ever be labeled heretics or sectarian. You may need to repent because it is a lie to blame Donnie for the crap in HIS pew.

Donnie still has the right to come to YOUR church and YOUR usually self- or peer- or cronny- selected elders have no more right than Donnie. Peter told the godly to TAKE THE OVERSIGHT. That is what Donnie is doing however the one hour game of the week is played--with cheerleaders,yet!

There is no Statute of Limitations on APOSTASY:

A noted Presbyterian scholar wrote and it has been proven that:

"It will, no doubt, be said that the attempt to prove the unjustifiable employment of instrumental music in the public worship of the Church is schismatical,
since the practice is now WELL-NIGH universal;
that it is trivial, inasmuch as it concerns a mere circumstantial in the services of religion;

"and that it is useless, as the tendency which is resisted is invincible,

"and is destined to triumph throughout Protestant Christendom.

"To all this one answer alone is offered, and it is sufficient, namely: that the attempt is GROUNDED in TRUTH. It involves a CONTEST for a mighty and all-comprehending principle, by opposing one of the special forms in which it is now commonly transcended and violated." George Girardeau, Against Instrumental music.

He and most Presbyterians held the same view about singing SECULAR hymns. Donnie will win and you will lose because TRUTH is on his side and I think he has some bulldog DNA and the 'musicians' can't swing the Sword of the Spirit.

Ok, so I lied about the length of the LASHING.

Ken Sublett

There is enough information and debate on this topic alone to short circuit a lot of brain cells but I would like to summarize what the essentials appear to be from the main contributors:
1. Kenneth Sublett believes that anything female is evil and profane and that females exist to tempt males into eternal damnation. (Would his wife and daughters be considered merely chattel or even less?)
a. Any form of vocal or musical expression in praise to Jehovah God is sinful and cause for eternal damnation.
b. Anyone who gleans knowledge of scripture that is not approved by said self-proclaimed prophet Kenneth Sublett is buying a 1-way ticket to hell.

Although it has been said by Bible scholars that the apostle Paul never changed his message of the gospel to make it more acceptable, he did tailor his methods to each audience, while not compromising the truth of the gospel.......This appears to be what the Madison Church of Christ is endeavoring to do but this is being met with hostility and resistance, most vocally on this web site by Donnie Cruz, whose role is unclear.

My questions are these:

If Kenneth Sublett is correct in his assertions about females and singing, please explain Luke 1:45-55, which is sometimes known as Mary's Magnificat. 1). If Mary sang that psalm to the Lord Almighty for his finding favor with her and allowing her to be the vessel to bring Jesus Christ into the flesh, would God not have struck her dead for this very act, according to your interpretations of music and praise?

2) Does God have a gender identity? What about race?


To the members of the Madison Church of Christ, I submit these verses from 1 Thessalonians 2:

For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:
2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.
3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:
4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.
5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:
6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.
7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:
8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

.....and so on throughout the chapter. Keep it up, brothers and sisters, keep your eyes on the prize and your God will not fail you.

Miriam you sound honest but to lump my BELIEF of the RECORDED facts about non-sedentary, performance women defined by the Holy Spirit with RACISM sounds like you have been infected with Shellyism.

Tired, sick, with a cold: Got up at 6, now 7:51, time for medication and a nap. I will get back when I rest a bit.

Your name is no exception so I want to take up the name MIRIAM and show you that she is probably the PROTOTYPICAL woman who has always tried to substitute MUSIC while Moses was SPEAKING his message as SYNAGOGUE or Qahal where either singing or playing would be irrational.

Now Mary who never sang a song, was not in public and quoted Scripture because she had been SCHOOLED in synagogue rather that with sacrificial music at the temple. In contrast to Elizabeth who SPAKE OUT LOUD it is probable that Mary spake and rejoiced IN HER SPIRIT: quite identical to what David practiced and Paul commanded:

Mary never "sang a song" because singing in our sense of the word simply was not done in the synagogue or school of the Bible. THERE WAS NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE. For that, you had to go find a pagan temple where the next-to-final ACT was the Vineyard or WINESKINS "climactic experience." And: "Please pay for the services before you leave."

--"And Mary said, My SOUL doth magnify the Lord, Luke 1:46

The Greek epo can mean anything from "speak" to "write." Since her soul magnified the Lord we have no evidence that her voice was heard any more than Hannah's. Furthermore, Mary was speaking to God and not SINGING a SONG. Neither was Hannah "singing."

Mary was not in an ASSEMBLY OF THE CHURCH which may be the point you have missed.

--"And my SPIRIT hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Luke 1:47

Jesus said that the Father seeks only those who worship IN SPIRIT. That means the PLACE of the mind. Mary was "jumping for joy" or "exulting" IN HER SPIRIT. Mary goes on to quote Scripture because she had, as with all children, memorized many passages of Scripture in the synagogue where "THERE WAS NO PRAISE SERVICE" but learning long passages so that she could SING in here SPIRIT.

Mary was quoting Hannah so we doubt that this is an honest "proof-text" for a MUSICAL PATTERNISM:

--"AND Hannah prayed, and said, My HEART rejoiceth in the Lord, mine horn is exalted in the Lord: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy salvation. 1S.2:1

Prayed is "officially or mentally." Said can mean to commune. We know that earlier, Hannah "spake in her heart" just as David "communed with his own heart."

--"Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken. 1 Sam 1:13

--"The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my savior.

See how Mary SET THE UNIVERSAL PATTERN? She spake or meditated on WHAT SHE KNEW FROM SCRIPTURE. It simply is not possible to commune with God except through the medium of His WORDS.

Ken

Sorry, Miriam, I intended to provide you a link to a Rubel Shelly / John York sermon review which discusses more of the so-called "songs" including more about the Magnificat.

http://www.piney.com/RSLukeXmasSongs.html

This is more from, I believe, an ACU professor who writes that Mary was a "sexually questionable women."

Shelly and York just fabricate some "narrative" to show that mary was like a troubled, 8th grade teenager shunned and probably had to move for her safety. Sounds like something written by T. Melt On.

They quote bits of "The Luck of Roaring Camp" to explain Mary's predicament. Quote Brete:

----"It was a terrible place where theft and murder were commonplace, inhabited entirely by men - and
one "coarse, and, it is to be feared, a very SINFUL woman" named CHEROKEE SAL. Sal died in the process of giving birth to a baby."

Rubel Shelly: "The pregnancy of an eighth-grade girl in Nazareth of the first century would outdo any shame we could imagine in a similar situation today. Would her mother have believed her story? Would her family have been engulfed in shame? Was it Mary's family who suggested that - possibly for her own safety - she go to visit her cousin Elizabeth?

"Whatever the reason, the girl in her early teens heads for the home of Zechariah and his pregnant wife."

Read the full article and weep for what is coming upon those who get carried away with their own sense of inspiration: including hallucinating about mandatory TITHING to keep from being CURSED by God.

Ken Sublett

Dear Miriam:

Please provide me one or more passages in the New Testament that deal with worship or public worship, more specifically. Then, please provide me one or more passages in the New Testament that mention the word music or where music is considered a worship activity.

So, Donnie Cruz is hostile and resisting and his role unclear? You know, Miriam, scripturally speaking, the role of WORSHIP LEADER (you know, the mediator that calls members to the Father’s throne during musical worship) is unclear to me. Please tell me where the role of WORSHIP LEADER came from?

===================================================~
Donnie Cruz

This website STINKS to HIGH HEAVEN. I am sure that God can smell the stink and thinks it is a disgrace. Have you noticed that Kenny's posts get put up on this site almost immediately while others wait for 2-3 days before getting posted?

This website is all about putting forth ONE VIEW and is not about any prolonged criticism of those views. As soon as one person gets one here and proceeds to criticize views held by sublett or cruz or the "moderator", they are promptly "excused" from posting anything beyond 2-3 posts. Get beligerant and bet booted is the rule here.

Let's call a spade a spade and say that this website is BIASED and only reports in a prolonged way one view.

GET A CLUE...YOU HAVE LOST WHAT YOU KNOW AS "THE CHURCH" Your ways are DIEING. Just slink away to your conservative, non-singing, non-offeratory churches and be happy. Leave the rest of us ALONE!

Christ is in control of HIS BODY and is working though the Holy Spirit to change His church into HIS likeness in spite of you.

Just noticing.....

Hello, Noticing,

So, from what you have noticed, how many messages of criticism have you posted so far, and how many different ways have you identified yourself? Aren’t you worried that you might be the next victim of exclusionary measures? Especially that you do not have proper identification (I mean, REAL and TRUE name) upon entrance because you are AFRAID!

I doubt seriously that conservatism is a dying breed. You detest conservatism so much that you must be a liberal. You know that even in the political arena, conservatism is on the rise and liberalism is headed in a downward direction. I wonder if, when liberalism in politics is equated to liberalism in religion, that you would go the extra mile to participate in a public demonstration of women’s rights to abortion -- you know … the murder of the innocent unborn? That’s just about how the liberal mind works in other arenas. In the religious realm, we call it abuse of Christian liberties.

I would not blame the moderator(s) for getting the belligerent booted when the STINK becomes obvious. I’m not the moderator, but I am beginning to sense that you might get the experience, unless you start identifying yourself and start presenting issues of substance for discussion.

You had it the other way around, pal. You said, “Christ is in control of HIS BODY and is working though the Holy Spirit to change His church into HIS likeness in spite of you.” Wha-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a!!! I just cannot believe it that Christ made a MISTAKE when His church was established and that He is getting the Holy Spirit (whom?) involved to correct Christ’s blunder! I hope lightning doesn’t strike you. Finally, it is the CHANGE AGENTS that must leave the church alone. If the change agents want to claim something as their own, let them build their own –- NOT SUBVERT, PERVERT, DISRUPT, DISTURB, INTERFERE, DIVERT, SUBJECT, DIVIDE, ACQUIRE!
=============================================~
Donnie Cruz

As usual, KS missed the part that acknowlegdes that you can't believe everything you hear and read...I wrote that my sources said....(blah blah blah) but acknowledged in the same sentence that you can't believe everything. Of course I never called Kenneth a "Whore" either, which you will note is not a courtesy he extends to me. However, I think I pushed his buttons enough to make it obvious to all who look at this site what a sick, perverted mind and heart are at work here. And yes, isn't it interesting how his posts go up so quickly and how any direct obviously logical arguments are cut off?

Jim, I am really glad to know that your eldership wouldn't tolorate the divisivness that KS and DC engage in as a matter of daily routine. Please continue to pray for unity and I thank you for speaking in love to the issue of it. God Bless You!

No surprise to me that KS has the convenience of "turning off the hearing aids". Too bad they haven't invented a device that can "turn on love for his fellowman, in his heart". What KS deserves more that anything else is our pity...and he has mine.

To those of you who consider yourself, "conservatives":
Please let me echo Jim and other's sentiments about not letting KS and DC speak on your behalf. Consider "contending for the faith" and make sure these individuals are not speaking for you. They don't do they?

T Melt On you FABRICATED that bit about your Holinwald friend.

You defined what I did when I haven't been in the church for 2 or maybe 3 years: but who is counting? You lied and slandered me by name. Did you know that singing self-composed songs is LYING? Jesus accused the Pharisees of being descendants of their father, the Devil. Jesus defined him as a liar because HE SPEAKS ON HIS ON. I can forgive you around the fringes because you may, like Mary's little lamb, just followed a trail of RED HERRINGS to keep you away from the Word: Jesus said that the doctors of the law "take away the key to knowledge." I am Bible literate, do not lie and you had better listen to the Word instead of your USERS.

Your same INFORMANT told you that I was an ALCOHOLIC. That was slander and a malicious lie: please check the Sheriff: you have my permission but not a drop of even beer has passed my lips for almost half a century. You are out on a broken limb because you are caught up in being USED in Paul's "authority" sense of AUTHENTIA which is "both erotic and sexual." You may be USED for commercial purposes to attract more of those sinners who will take your invitation as authority for a hostile takeover.

You need to apologize. I don't know you so I didn't call you a whore but the UNIVERSAL history does if you are a musical or theatrical performer in worship.

"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as SINGERS and MUSICIANS. The understanding of this service was UNIVERSAL: these singers constituted the "HAREM of the gods'." (Johannes Quasten. In Music and Worship in Pagan and Christian Antiquity, beginning on page 41)

Conservatived do not lie: Christians do not lie: humans do not fabricate what they "heard" when you know that what you heard came out of your own unloving heart. Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commandments." I don't love liars or thieves TAKING AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE except in the agape sense which is to warn you that liars have their place in the lake of fire along with Lucifer and her music and musicans: she is defined as being in Eden and is called the "harp playing prostitute." All musical performance is prostituting your Christian character.

How do I know? The Bible tells me so and I can point it out and no professional is allowed into the clear facts.

Ken who tells you the truth about the Word WITHOUT COST.

Hey Ken
My name is ZA and I ran across this site cause a friend referred me to it. I have been following this for some time and have yet to post anything but now feel it as best to do so because you seem to think you are God's gift to everything. You appear to think you have all the answers, you seem to also think that what you say goes. Lemme get a word in here. You say Christians don't lie...I think that if you call yourself a Christian you would consider for some brief second that no one is perfect and we all say things that aren't truthful. Who are you to judge if one can worship the Lord freely. I appreciate what Jim said and for taking a stand and for his support of an eldership that is united on this and respect his views. Ken on the other hand I wish you would let me know why you seem to think you know everything and that you are Mr Perfect. It hurts me to see the sin and evil that is brought forth from brothers who claim to be Christians like yourself, Mr Cruz and Joe McKnight.
Thanks, ZA

Stella Award 4:

4. Jerry Williams of Little Rock, Arkansas, was awarded $14,500 and medical expenses after being bitten on the buttocks by his next door neighbor's beagle. The beagle was on a chain in its owner's fenced yard. The award was less than sought because the jury felt the dog might have been just a little provoked at the time by Mr. Williams who was shooting it repeatedly with a pellet gun." Know where the MARK of the MUSICAL Catamite is located?

Let's see if we can mind-read ZA.

Za: Zanny? Zapper? probably not.
Ze: Zelda? probably not.
Zi: Zipper? Zinna? probably not.
Zu: Zuck? Zup as in "Whas Zup?" probably not.

What did you say? Oh! Oh! I forgot:

Zo: Zoe? I'll bet that is your name.

The name is also Lucifer Acamoth:

"Acamoth One of the aeons, and a daughter of Pistis Sophia. In Ophitic Gnosticism, ACHAMOTH is the mother of the EVIL god Ildabaoth. [Rf. King, "The Gnostics and Their Remains.]

Sophia - Gnostic creation myth said Sophia was born from the primordial female power Sige. Sophia gave birth to a male spirit, Christ, and a female spirit, ACHAMOTH (Zoe, Lucifer).

Hay? I have met some of the demonesses but never

Zoe Achamoth: Lucifer the morning star tried to pass HERSELF off as the LOGOS, Christ or TRUE morning star or evening star. Zoe or Venus, Lucifer, was really the harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden. I believe that SHE HAS FALLEN already!

Seduciton of the church is through: "the position that the demons, predetermining in their OWN interests from the first, among other evils of idolatry,

-----the pollutions of the PUBLIC SHOWS, with the object of drawing man away from his Lord and binding him to their own service, carried out their purpose by bestowing on him the ARTISTIC gifts which the shows require."

Only Satan is said to have given mankind musical instruments. Kno dat?

"For none but themselves would have made provision and preparation for the objects they had in view; nor would they have given the ARTS to the world by any but those in whose names, and images, and histories they set up for their own ends the artifice of consecration." Tertullian.

Hay, I didn't name you but why would anyone name their daughter LUCIFER or Zoe-Acamoth?

Zoe may be innocently held to be PHYSICAL LIFE but when you are LITERATE and awake you understand that when ZOE stands up in the HOLY PLACE claming to be gods "leading the worshipers into the presence of God" with SINGING, DANCING, DRAMA AND MUSIC don't you have the minimal interest in the WORD to understand that they have a secret name: The Lucifer Team. Click for an introduction to see that ZOE is the "Beast" and "the female instructing principle."

http://www.piney.com/DocoriginIntro.html

And click below to see how the FEMINIST goddess and her daughter superior to the "mindless" Jesus forced the "minor jehovahs" into forming a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM. Did you know that this is why Jesus dwelt so much in SILENCE?

Whom did they worship? Why Sophia and ZOE or Lucifer. You CANNOT worship a Spirit God with music, food or sex. The MUSIC words are all related to pollution: Same word translated "play the flute, pollute, prostitute."

http://www.piney.com/Dochypostas.html

And the Gnostic (began in Babylon) origin of the world:

http://www.piney.com/Docorigin.html

Someone told me that there were an inordinate number of ZOES flocking to RULE OVER THE CHURCH AS LONG AS THEY USE A TUNE.

In the Greek version EVE is ZOE who led Adam astray and it was that "unexpected" EATING exercise by the MALE which cursed the world. The DOVE was proof that Zoe etc were DAUGHTERS OF the gods. However, when it rested on Jesus the MARK was to prove that the SUPREME God is a Father and instead of ZOE, Logos the SON has God's approval.

But, musical agents of Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) as the NIME MUSES in Revelation 18, you were DOOMED to be resurrected so that the BEAST or "female instructing principle" can be sentenced back into hell.

I didn't make that stuff up: I don't know it all but I know enough to IDENTIFY the agents trying to STOP THE MOUTH of Lord Jesus Christ when I see them. And that is why there are so many Banshees (women of the fairies) wailing through the holy places of churches: they predict a death in the family. She is Lilith, the night hag, the killers of children or perhaps she leads them into Canaan land.

Zoe Acamoth (or please out your name) my commission is to go into the world and preach the GOSPEL. Gospel frees you from "doctors of the law," Temple taxes, tithes, the mandatory law of giving, the "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The doctors of the law who "took away the key to knowledge KNEW that Jesus was taking away their old wineskin of these LADED BURDENS. That is why they murdered Him Whom they KNEW to be their Messiah because they HATED TRUTH and truth tellers.

Read Isaiah 6, 29, Matthew 13 and 2 Cor. 3 to explain why you can LOVE and PAY FOR A LIE and hate the FREE TRUTH: it is all prophesied in the book. If you don't challenge ONE thing that I have said in error then we know that your TEAM of muses under Abaddon have been let free from the bottomless pit to MARK OUT with the locust's sting (musical performer) those marked with LUCIFER'S MUSIC from those with the MARK OF THE WORD.

Her prophesied name includes Lucifer-Acamoth or ZOE: the Babylon Harlot who USES the 9 muses. Now is the time: I KNOW why you musical stingers HURT so much because you are wailing for the terrors coming upon you. But you also know from the Bible and all other history such as the Book of Enoch that when you have FALLEN into the musical and theatrical silencing of Lord Jesus Christ you have fallen and you will never get up. In that sense I believe that PREDESTINATION distinguishes the Seed of Jesus from the SEED or ministers of Satan who have always PLAGUED the earth and one of the END TIME marks is music and "running sores."

Ken, not stung yet. Your whips put me in heaven already.

Hey Ken,

I NEVER said my sources were in Holenwald. YOU did. And as for the apology, don't hold your breath. And as for liars...you hold the connorstone on that little title. At least Donnie shows up and has first hand knowledge of what he critizes. I can at the very least respect him for that much.

And why do you keep going back to the alcohol issue? I said already that ALL sources can not be trusted.

You know, it doesn't feel very good to be accused of something that, other than your own personal testimony you have no way of proving, does it? Yet you speak to the motivations of people's hearts and actions all the time, without having personally witnessed anything at Madison. I sincerely hope that you remember the sensation of being offended...that's how many of us have felt for a long time now about your ramblings.

Jim is welcome to come to Madison at any time. We have a traditional service that meets and as his sister I would want him to feel comfortable, so that would be my recommendation for him. But I would very much like to meet him. I suspect that we would agree about more than we disagree.

Frankly Ken, I'd like to see you face to face and see if you are as bold in person as you are over the web. I somehow doubt that will ever happen as that would take an amount courage you don't have. It's easy to throw darts from the confines of your own home and quite another to face the person you throw darts at.

As for the libel and slander situation...it's part of my profession to know what constitutes this and you and this website have mentioned enough people and churches that, if we weren't adhering to the law of love, would have already hauled you tail into a court room. Those who have cases are Tom Hadden, Keith Lancaster, Robin Guidicy, Bruce White, many of the elders and others. In my flesh, I'd like nothing better than to get you into a court of law...but my rights as an American and my duties as a Christian are different. So you'll just continue to be a thorn and I'll continue to pray for you....end of story and my involvement. Have yourself a "Jim-Dandy-Day".

Liars don't make it too well in court. Here is what you said in your first lie:

Incidentally, my sources tell me that Kenneth Sublett "attends" a church in Holenwald, TN...but he sits in the lobby throughout the entire service. Of course, those were the same sources that told me that he was an alcoholic ...but you can't believe everything you hear or read...as this website so readily proves.

Your SOURCES have to be from HOHENWALD because that is where I don't attend and where I don't--as the church fathers said of the Musicians: 'Get drunk on ignorance'." Maybe you do long distance mind reading since you can COMPOSE your own, superior songs and sermons?

I don't get out much but here is where you can find me or I will meet you at the Hohenwald Church of Christ:

Kenneth Sublett
1090 Little Swan Creek Road
Hohenwald, TN

Since you are Lying and Frying, why don't YOU come to Hohenwald and lie?? Huh? I won't sue you: you are an AGENT OF GOD sent as part of Abaddon's locusts. Apollo was the father of the SEEKER-CENTER, Navigated the winds of change to STEAL ministers, was the father of musical HARMONY (Anti-Christian), twanging bowstrings (psallo), theives and liars.

If you say that YOU HEARD from ANYBODY, ANYWHERE that I attend in Hohenwald or THEY have HEARD anyone from Hohenwald or ANYWHERE that I am an alcoholic I will tell you that you ARE A LIAR. Since I live in Hohenwald, your sources are from HOHENWALD or your sources are part of the Liars Team. The best prophesiers (singers with instruments) did their best work drunk on chewing laurel leaves, sniffing a gas from a CRACK at DELPHI, or singing, clapping and dancing: only the INSANE or MAD (noted by Paul) or who were emotionally or SEXUALLY ABNORMAL could PERFORM in forcing information out of the gods.

While you are here, I can give you a supply of Laurel Leaves: make the deer foam at the mouth, act crazy, go charismatic and "speak in tongues." Like others seing godliness as a means of financial advantage (salary) by selling CDs, you can do a film strip and become the next world-wide prophetess.

Remember the old LIER'S CLUB? You are the best entertainment in my green valley. And you ESTABLISH a BENCHMARK for who (what) has Infiltrated, Diverted and STOLEN THE CHURCH HOUSE OF WIDOWS. Your story will be a permanent part of church history as a "BARELY TOLERABLE INQUISITION." You need to register your REAL name so that we can post you there with Priscilla and Maximilla, who like Judas, hanged themselves on the same day in different cities.
------------------------------

Montanus was the first to HIRE (procure) ministers including PROPHESIERS which means singers and musicians:

"It is indeed by another kind of death that Montanus and Maximillia are said to have met their end. For the report is, that by the instigation of that maddening spirit both of them hung themselves; not together indeed, but at the particular time of the death of each as the common story goes.
------"And thus they died, and finished their life like the traitor JUDAS. Thus, also, the general report gives it that Theodotus-that astonishing person who was, so to speak, the first PROCURATOR (purcurers) of 23 of their so-called prophecy,
----------------------------------

I punched your button and your Annie Mouse friend's also to let the same watching world see that leadlership which lies about music and the tithe will HATCH out Viper's Egg as their "children."

I have posted Tom HaddOn's class material and reviewed it.

http://www.piney.com/MadHaddonHBClass.html

Thanks for the FREE PRESS, Melted On.

I have posted Robin's published article about candle light worship at White House and proven to you that this is FIRE or SUN worship.

http://www.piney.com/MuCandles.html

All Publicity is GOOD PUBLICITY. Note the confession from the Catholic Encyclopedia that they "borrowed" both MUSIC and CANDLES because they were COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. Maybe too "common" for White House?

Robin Guidicy: "Many times we use the crutch of tradition, but the root isn't tradition it is instead IGNORANCE or fear. We are afraid of the unknown, the unchartered, or the unseen.
----"We live on milk instead of meat, and our reactions to the smallest, most inconsequential things are reflective of that.

Yeah, Robin, singy-clappy LUCIFER FIRED music which NEVER had ANY ROLE to play in Jehovah's system: Never.

--------"The wax-candle was, in fact, a hieroglyphic, like so many other things which we have already seen, and was intended to exhibit the BABYLONIAN GOD..

<")))>< "His Mark"

All of the WINESKINS and the NEW STYLE WORSHIP are from the OLD WINESKIN of ancient paganism and fallen Judaism. The familiar spirit of the Witch of Endor was a dried out wineskin as an echo chamber. Stretch strings over its opening and you had a NEBEL or harp named after the NABAL or a VILE PERSON.

Bruce White preached on TITHING and I can prove that. Then--THANK YOU VERRRRY MUCH--I quoted the Bible to prove that pushing the TITHE like LEVITICAL musicians is to PAY FOR THE ANIMALS AND THE MUSICIANS (NOISE MAKERS) FOR MURDERING ANIMALS TYPICAL OF WHAT THE SAME JEWS WOULD DO TO JESUS. You cannot preach tithing, tithe to escape a CURSE, or PROFIT from tithing without FALLING INTO SIN BEYOND REDEMPTION. I preached the gospel to you and proved that "THE WARNING IS TO YOU O PRIESTS" and not the working people who NEVER tithed CASH WAGES.

I have posted the links to four reviews to prove to you that TITHING is wrong and getting in bed with a fellow who yearns for raising the dead and is your FATHER ON ANTI-BIBLICAL, ANTI-CHRISTIAN tithing is a MARK.

Maybe Donnie or one of the NON-BEAST people can point you to the links so you can read them. Thank you verrrry much for the publicity. But Jesus said that unless you have the Holy Spirit (His mind or Spirit) you CANNOT even read the Bible.

You are just DIVERTING to "take away the key to knowledge" as Jesus warned about "doctors of the Law." Those with the WORD MARK can recognize locusts with scorpion stings in their tails (musical performers).

Those with Satan's Music Mark--stamped indelibly on Eve--CANNOT hear the Word because Jesus preached that He has blinded your eyes and plugged your ears so that you CANNOT hear, possibly REPENT and He would be obligated to forgive you (Matthew 13).

It is a UNIVERSAL FACT that religious musicians were the HAREM OF THE GODS. Of course, the fringe benefit went to the AGENT of the gods. The singers floating around the temple area were PROSTITUTES. The musicians were Sodomites. The Levitical noise makers living on the TITHE were paid to SACRIFICE the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ. When you sing your own garbage during the Lord's Supper you are celebrating your ancient role of CHRIST CRUCIFIERS with MUSIC made available by the TITHE.

Don't lie over and over that you didn't lie over and over: but, if you are one of the musical or THEATRICAL performers YOU HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE.

"Jingling, banging, and rattling accompanied heathen cults, and the frenzying shawms of a dozen ecstatic cries intoxicated the masses. Amid this euphoric farewell feast of a dying civilization, the voices of nonconformists were emerging from places of Jewish and early Christian worship ..." (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music."

At the same time the LAUGHING movement hit Nashville, your guys repudiated the Redemption and began the JUBILEE. The ZOE concept provided CRUCIFYING music and DRAMA (Drama works because WE KNOW that it isn't true). Zoe is Lucifer, superior "sister" to the Logos or Jesus: She is the BEAST and the "FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE." Eve began it, Miriam continued it, Paul OUTLAWED IT and you have to repudiate the Bible to lie your way into being PERFORMANCE WOMEN exercising Sexual AUTHORITY.

In Murfreesboro they were trying to restore CANERIDGE which was much like ancient and modern devil worship. Take a look at devil worship:

http://www.piney.com/MuCane.html

Lying is Frying. Hiding behind an alias is the MARK.

Ken

Jim,

How many members, do you think, have left Madison since the change agents from Saddleback began disrupting and subverting this once-peaceful and great congregation? Would a count of over 1500 be close enough? If you don’t know the figures, please ask Sister T or the elders or some of your friends there. Next questions: How many members, do you think, have left Madison because of Donnie, the “division-monger”? How many change agents, do you think, have been angered and frustrated by Donnie? You certainly will not miss the last question!!! Because the answer would be the same as, “How many dead people have been buried in a cemetery?”

Jim, I would urge you not to attempt to redefine established words. My World Book Dictionary states: (1) “sect” is “a religious group separated from an established church”; (2) “sectarian” is “a member of a religious group separated from an established church.”

The Madison church of Christ was an established congregation for many years and its members were not sectarian for many years. When the Saddleback change agents came along to disrupt and disturb, they were the ones who refused to conform but rather who enforced THEIR DIVISIVE SCHEMES FOR CHURCH GROWTH upon the established membership. Clearly in this instance, the original members of the Madison body were not sectarian. The Saddleback change agents were sectarian, and they are still sectarian. Get it this time, Jim?

=============================================~
Donnie

Sister T:

Since it is highly unlikely for me to convince you (1) that THEN … it was only the mega Madison body of believers including me; but (2) that NOW … it is the LESS mega Madison body of believers including myself [still there] with more of Saddlebacking going on … I feel that time expended to explain to you anything more would be futile and wasted. However, I would make these remarks:

Since you consider Jim a brother and since Dr. White is encouraging every member to bring a friend to increase the membership at Madison in 2003, why don’t you invite Jim to give it a try and attend and make him “feel comfortable worshiping in Madison’s contemporary environment”?

Is it possible that the information you were told was concerning a Kenneth Sublett look-alike? You said, “but you can't believe everything you hear or read...as this website so readily proves.” Was it Christ-like of you to proudly announce that Kenneth Sublett was an alcoholic without questioning the veracity of your sources? And how many unreliable sources did you have?

Here’s an analogy question for you: “Thorn in the flesh” is to Donnie as Paul is to _________?
================================================~
Donnie

Jim,

Sorry about my reference to your being “change-brainwashed.” You had given me that impression when you agreed with the initial post by Dan that the Community Church Movement is not the culprit. Anyway, I’m glad that you attend a very conservative church and that we are in agreement on most of the issues. But I beg to differ with you on worship as a matter of opinion. Critical as worship is in the life of a Christian, I am convinced that it is a doctrinal issue. Otherwise, if it isn’t, then it doesn’t matter how Catholics and Muslims and Buddhists and others worship when equated to the way Christians worship.

The only point I brought up in the gathering of the first century Christians was the SIMPLICITY of it. I’ve already stated a number of times how Acts 20:7 exemplifies for us the way that the early disciples gathered: (1) to break bread and (2) to learn more of God’s will. These are my main objectives in being at the gathering at Madison. The number of songs, order of worship activities, location (cave or mountain or palace or home), persuasive or dynamic sermon or not, song leading, and many other items –- these have never been issues with me.

Worship becomes an issue to me when performance or entertainment dominates the worship activities. Call it preoccupation with the performance on my part or not, the truth is that it has no place in worship at all and at any time. I’m really very surprised that as very conservative that you claim you are, I cannot get you to agree with me on the performance issue. But yet, at the same time, you said that you could not attend the Madison assembly because of its practices and activities I have cited, and that doing so would violate your conscience. There are SOME [only the change advocates and agents] at Madison who, without any hesitation, would consider me a modern-day “Pharisee” for my beliefs, which are the same beliefs that the Madison members and the churches of Christ have held for years and years. And if you were more conservative than I, you would be considered more of a Pharisee than I would be by these same change agents at Madison.

Do you think I should place membership at your home congregation? Where is it?
===========================================~
Donnie

Jim:

Donnie Cruz in the same camp with Keith Lancaster, Rubel Shelly and the liberals? P-P-P-P-P-L-E-A-S-E!!!

You know, Jim, there are so many, many people especially “in the brotherhood of the change agents” who ENVY Kenneth Sublett’s ability; accumulation of knowledge, evidences and resources to support scriptural matters; and Spirit-guided wisdom and knowledge of the Holy Scripture. You see … Ken can probably quote you IN HIS SLEEP historical evidences that support the accuracy of historical accounts related to worship as already described in the Old and New Testaments. There is absolutely nothing you can add more to or negate his QUOTED facts (remember, they are not Ken’s) that are related to idolatry, sexual immorality and pagan activities in the documented HISTORY OF WORSHIP. Now, all the change agents can do is attack Ken personally because they are DUMBFOUNDED and SPEECHLESS when HISTORICAL FACTS and SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES are presented to them.

So, you would not be interested in worshiping at Madison because of certain practices and activities that you disagree with and that are against your conscience. I do not get it at all, Jim! You should be on our side. But you are fighting us as your worst enemies.

Wake up, Jim.
==========================================~
Donnie

In recent years we have witnessed the deceptive work of historical revisionists who have rewritten certain areas of history in order to inject their personal views into the words and deeds of past leaders. By this dishonest method, they seek to exonerate the guilty and condemn the honorable. They make good evil and evil good (Is. 5:20). Revisionists have succeeded in dishonoring and belittling the founders of our nation. They are disguising Japan's brutal aggressions in World War II. Now the aims, purposes and goals of our Restoration Movement are being revised by some of our own preachers and educators.

As I read and listen to our revisionist preachers offer their critiques of the Lord's church my reaction varies from disbelief to disgust. It is clear that many of them see no value or benefit, much less scriptural necessity, for restoring New Testament Christianity. Many of them see nothing sinful or wrong with the denominational variety of Christianity prevalent in our world.

It is evident that many of them have little knowledge of the genesis of the Restoration Movement. Certainly they have not done much reading in original sources such as the biographies, sermons and gospel papers of the first 150 years of our history. Most of them share an obvious and pronounced dislike for the preachers and publications of our brotherhood prior to c.a. 1960.

Few if any of them have ever done pioneer work, planting churches in difficult mission fields where they had to do battle with error and wrest souls away from malignant error. Rather virtually all of them live handsomely and comfortably off the labors of those older pioneers whom they despise.

Our revisionists can find serious flaws in the best of our past leaders that discredit them, while finding only admirable virtues in liberal heretics and denominational leaders. When they tell the story of our beginnings on this continent, they use carefully crafted, partial truths that are designed to convince the unknowing that our pioneers were attempting to do something different than our brethren were trying to do in the 20th century. One such
brother's eyes twinkled as he boldly proclaimed that our earliest pioneers were all actually denominational preachers, not bothering to explain that they all chose to leave their denominational connections behind them.

Let every Christian remember that in interpreting the past as in interpreting the Scriptures, only truth can make us free (John 8:24). If these men had a modicum of integrity, they would simply renounce the Churches of Christ and their goal of Restoring New Testament Christianity, embrace the denominationalism they love and abandon their attempts to revise our history.

John Waddey

i am certainly glad that i found this site and there are people that still stand up for what is right and godly keep up the good work

———————————————————————————————————————————
“When we try to entertain rather than just preach it plain, the message we send to our young people is that the Bible in and of itself is not appealing enough without clowns and fireworks, or that our young people have not reached the point where they can fully appreciate the appeal of Scripture.”
____________________________
Quoted from an article by Mike Riley of El Paso, Texas

———————————————————————————————————————————
“Parents, we need to let our young people know that involvement in the church of Christ is more important than school, or work, or sports, or anything else in which they may be engaged. It is no wonder that our young people forsake the Lord’s church when parents are telling them that they have to go to school, they have to go to work, they have to go to practice and games, but it is their "choice" whether or not they attend the services and other activities of the church.”
____________________________
Quoted from an article: “Why Are We Loosing Our Young People?” by Mike Riley of El Paso, Texas
———————————————————————————————————————————

The “Worship Leader,” by “contemporary worship” standards, is supposedly the one LEADER who LEADS his FOLLOWERS, the regular members of the local body, into the HOLY PRESENCE OF GOD. Based on that definition, the Madison leadership has “fully employed” the services of Keith Lancaster, as the church’s “Worship Leader”—paid to lead the congregation into God’s holy presence.

[Just a reminder: Keith has recently returned from a 6-month sabbatical. Keith has a busy schedule throughout the year due to his commitment to his own “Acappella Ministries”—that’s what I hear. Now, when he was on leave, I wonder if the “traditional” attendants were happy for his temporary departure. I wonder if his 6-month leave of absence was prompted (to put that mildly) by that particular group, in the first place. You see, since his return, Keith has been “worship leading” only during the “contemporary” assembly. Whereas at the early assembly (labeled as the “traditional” group), Kevin Dunnebacke and Stephen Vail have been alternating in leading singing in the last several weeks. Now, I wonder if the “traditional” folks are not so eager to allow Keith to “lead them into God’s holy presence” again. But that’s speculation on my part. Regular members have no control over what the church leadership decides to do.]

Anyway, it appears that whether or nor Kevin and Stephen lead singing, Mr. Lancaster is a full-time employee of the Madison congregation. Does anyone have any idea how much the church is spending for his charismatic leadership and performances? Shhh! I don’t want to know. Besides, I also don’t want to know about his income and profits from his Acappella Ministries (www.acappella.org/main.htm).

Sorry about the long introduction. Below is a copy-and-paste of a post from a religious website. The still on-going topic is titled: “Do you listen and approve of CC music?” This particular thread has often mentioned “Acappella” as a great CCM group. And I was just wondering if this is the same as Keith Lancaster’s “Acappella” group. Since I’m not into CCM—even when I am not in the assembly—I’m not sure if this is Keith’s group. But whether it is or not, what’s said in the following post reminds me so much of the “concert-like” and performance-driven atmosphere during Madison’s contemporary musical worship. Keith’s Praise Team members, with their hand-held microphones, humming, rhythmic handclapping, vocal noises that simulate sounds of musical instruments, etc., come to mind when I read the following … and here it is:

Acappella is good when they just sing. Adding all of those "vocal sounds" to their music to sound like instruments ruined what was some good acappella music. Do they still do that? Either sing acappella, or go get yourself some instruments. I think it was mostly with AVB back then, but some Acappella stuff did it too. And why do so many of these acappella singing groups keep the bass "humming" or "do do do"-ing or making other noises instead of singing half the time? Drives me crazy... let the man sing!

Well, poster, thanks for your article. It’s refreshing to hear such an excellent description of what’s only partly going on in certain gatherings where reverence in worship has been redefined. You would think that the contemporary version of “Let Us Worship the Father” would reflect reverence and respect for God. No, it doesn’t—the title is misleading and misrepresented by the irreverent “music” behind the song. The credit it deserves is that it has the words “worship the Father.” We can easily memorize those words, can’t we? And sing it “my way,”—correct?

Donnie

Just so it’s not only my opinion and my being “judgmental,” I’m going to let someone else do the “opining.” The poster I quoted from earlier has more to say. Here ‘tis:

I think another part of the problem with the CCM industry is the youth of the artists. It seems the artists that are well-known and popular are younger and younger. And with that I think many of them are still young in their faith, so you will see things from time to time that reflect negatively on them. Especially considering their position in the spotlight and the pressures that go along with performing. I remember when I first started listening to CCM around 17-18 years ago. Most artists were older, you didn't see many huge arena shows but rather church shows. Now it's a completely different world.

I think another difference from 20 years ago is that back then there were more artists in the CCM industry interested in ministry. Concerts regularly included an altar call of some kind. Now, I believe more artists than not are simply Christians who are also entertainers and this is their job. They aren't necessarily in it to be a ministry of any kind. I have no problem with that - in many cases they aren't gifted in ministry but just singing/performing, and so that's all they should do, but I think that makes a difference in the whole industry. Before it was more evangelistic in nature, IMO, and now it's more entertainment. Again, I think that's fine for people to simply be entertainers, but I think some people still believe all CCM artists are ministers, and I just don't think that's the case anymore, and hasn't been for a number of years now.

. . .

by the way, another good book regarding the state of the CCM industry, written by one on the inside, is Charlie Peacock's "At the Crossroads: An Insider's Look at The Past, Present, and Future of Contemporary Christian Music." It's a few years old now, but still relevant (perhaps more so). Link below...

Link: At The Crossroads

Key words and phrases from the quoted material: the [CCM] artists … their position in the spotlight and the pressures that go along with performing … huge arena shows … who are also entertainers and this is their job … before it was more evangelistic in nature … now it's more entertainment … some people still believe all CCM artists are ministers.

The link to Charlie Peacock’s analysis of the CCM industry is a good resource. In fact, his review has been included in my initial post to the thread titled, “Worship for Sale—90% of All Church Conflicts over Musical Issues.”

Donnie