What does history tell us about Churches that adopt "praise teams"?

How long before the Church adopts other musical instruments?

Take a look at the Highland Church of Christ, and the Farmers Branch as good examples.

Can we assume that everyone attending Madison now would also welcome the musical instruments when they arrive?

Is there really any difference bewteen "praise teams" and "musical instruments"

30% of the voters in this poll said "praise teams" and musical instruments were both Ok during Worship. Do the other 70% at Madison know what is coming?
Poll Results;
http://www.concernedmembers.com/polls.htm#20020731
Note: This poll was sabotaged Monday night. The totals
will be rolled back to zero in a few days.

Did the Elders say that it was not their "intent" to have musical instruments?

Do we have this in writing somewhere? Is there an oath or convenant that should be signed by the Elders?

Will The Band Come Before Or Right After The Building Gets Paid For?

Should There Be Other Instruments In Addition to Flutes and Tambourines?

To be continued.....

How Long Will It Be Until The Band And Musical Instruments Arrive At Madison? 09/23/02 September 24 2002, 12:11 AM

How Long Will It Be Until The Band And Musical Instruments Arrive At Madison? September 23 2002 at 3:37 PM

I believe that this question must be answered, can best be answered, and can only be answered by the church leaders of a developing Community Church. The key word in the preceding statement is “developing,” and it is essential for a good analyst to be familiar with the CHARACTERISTICS of the Community Church Movement and its pattern for church growth. Now, if the Madison congregation has not yet arrived at the status of being a full-fledged Community Church, let’s analyze the following characteristics to help us determine where Madison stands and if it is on its way there:

(1) Contemporary music and what might be called “upbeat worship.”
(2) Eliminating or diminishing the name “church of Christ.”
(3) Casual emphasis in worship, both in style and dress.
(4) Different kind of leadership model than “authoritarian” elders.
(5) Praise teams and entertainment orientation in worship.
(6) A greater emphasis on “self,” including one’s own feelings and emotions.
(7) De-emphasis on doctrine and the restoration plea.
(8) Less contact and fellowship with mainline churches of Christ.
(9) Division of existing congregations in order to implement the “community” model.
(10) A market-driven program, i.e., striving to provide what people want or what they are seeking.

The above list is by no means complete and is not necessarily in chronological order. For example, the elimination of the name “church of Christ” being the last occurrence would seem logical to be so. But we have several “obvious” characteristics evident at Madison: contemporary music; the “upbeat worship”; peer selection of new elders by current elders; emerging leaders (e.g., “worship leader” who “calls us to worship”) other than elders; praise teams and entertainment orientation in worship; emphasis on “one’s own feelings and emotions”; de-emphasis on doctrine (e.g., perverted “tithing” and pledging doctrine); market-driven contemporary worship style to “provide what people want.” Well, we should not be giving all the clues and observations away.

Is the Madison congregation there yet? Even if we think that it is almost there, still only the leaders know. Even if they do not know at this point or even believe that is not the plan in the future, who can safely say that the use of the band and musical instruments is not on its way?

Donnie Cruz

Because many churches have become a SQUARE city missing 3/4 of the foundation stones you know that IT CAN'T BE LONG.

When Joe speaks, I listen. I was just fascinated by his calling us to the Book of Revelation. Remember that Jesus spoke in parables to "fool the fools" and the Book of Revelation presents a picture which proves inspiration and causes us to STAND BY THE HUSBAND. If Eve had done that she would not have been WHOLLY SEDUCED by the "nachash" or musical enchanter called Lucifer, ZOE, Satan or Saturn (666). I couldn't resist reviewing the difference between the FOUNDATION of Spiritual Jerusalem and the COVERING which Satan used as his "foundation" and protection.

The New Jerusalem as Free "Sarah" as opposed to the slaves of the old Hagar Jerusalem or "Egypt or Sodom or Babylon" is built on twelve foundation stones. These stones were part of the breastplate or COVERING of the high priest.

However, Satan (Helel, Venus [ZOE] or Saturn whose number is 666) had three DIFFERENT STONES when he became a fallen STAR.

In the place of being able to name God, make a covenant with God or ever repent, Lucifer substituted three things:

---String instruments
---Percussion instruments and
---Wind instruments [meaning to pollute or prostitute].

The MISSING stones are the ligure or Jacinth or the name of Jehovah, the Agate or power to repent and the amethyst or the ability to covenant with God. He does have the ability to covenant with those whom he MARKS.

The meaning attached to the Ligure stone is the "Name of God".
-Leshem (h3958) leh'-shem; from an unused root of uncert. mean.; a gem, perh. the jacinth: - ligure.
--Jacinth: Root of shem meaning the Name-Yahweh (Gesenius Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon pg.1081).
---MEANING: The ligure or Jacinth means that SATAN or LUCIFER is missing the name of God. Even though he was successful as the "harp playing prostitute" indwelling the king of Type, he can CALL OUT but he cannot call to God. As the literal MUSICAL SEDUCER he even sold true Israelites into slavery: you are not exempt.

Agate: Root is shuv, meaning to return or repent, restore to life (The Analytical Hebrew and Chaldee Lexicon by Davidson pg.704).
---Shub (h7725) shoob; a prim. root; to turn back, convert, recover, call to mind,
-----MEANING: Lucifer and his TEAM CANNOT repent. The account in the Book of Enoch and similar documents confirm that when people fall into MUSICAL SEDUCTION they can never return to the Holy Mountain. They cannot ever be sons of God able to call Lord Jesus Christ "Father." He will always be a bit player who was never Christ who came fully in the flesh. Therefore, John would call them antichrist.

The Amethyst: Hebrew root chalam meaning to join closely (Hebrew-Aramaic-English Dictionary Vol.1 pg.471). Chalam (h2492) khaw-lam'; a prim. root; prop. to bind firmly,
--Amethyst: Hebrew root chalam meaning to join closely (Hebrew-Aramaic-English Dictionary Vol.1 pg.471).
---Achlamah (h304) akh-law'-maw; perh. from 2492 (and thus dream- stone); a gem, prob. the amethyst: - amethyst.
----Chalam (h2492) khaw-lam'; a prim. root; prop. to bind firmly
-----Meaning: Never can Lucifer and his TEAM partake of the NEW COVENANT made by the shed blood of the Savior. A MARK is that they despise baptism. However, those who once knew better and are SEDUCED into musical worship are worshiping Lucifer or Zoe: the covenant is binding and they cannot repent.

CONCLUSION: Lucifer the harp-playing prostitute and his MUSICAL TEAM have no right to the unique name of Jehovah: salvation is in the name of Jesus, Joshua or Jehovah- Saved. Therefore, they CANNOT call on Him for salvation because THAT only happens in baptism. That's why the LUST to take the name of Christ off the sign.
--A MARK is that they refuse to use CHRIST'S WORDS in Song and sermon: they cannot do otherwise.

> Lucifer CANNOT repent or return to God. He has been predestined to the lake of fire and in Enoch and other documents his present job is to seduce others with mixed-sex choirs, instrumental music and sexual perversion. The New WINESKIN was one of his weapons.

> The COVENANT blessings are in Abraham through Israel: Lucifer and his commercial, musical team have no right to that covenant. This, too, is why they fight baptism which Paul to the Galatians attached to the covenant with Abraham which THEY CANNOT make. Therefore, they try to keep others from the covenant. Paul said that when they lose the TASTE of the WORD they have committed the unforgivable sin.

> Satan or Helel's efforts to MOUNT UP to take the throne and the worship due God by his EXPERIMENTING and adding string instruments, wind instruments and percussion instruments means that he/she has perverted the nine other "stones" and replaced them with counterfeits. If you find that ATTRACTIVE then you have the MARK. When you have a square foundation and you take the STONES from under one corner, the smallest wind will blow your house down and playing music will not hold back the storm.

The world-wide lust to join THE MUSICAL BAND cannot be other than a great miracle created by Satan. When people suddenly feel justified in lying about the Bible and music and tithing then you know that the father of liars is getting his fangs set. Unless all of the MUSICAL events in the Bible as a BEYOND REDEMPTION SIGN has an end-time exception then the message is: "How long oh lord? Not long"! Here is the MARK:

"Jingling, banging, and rattling accompanied heathen cults, and the frenzying shawms of a dozen ecstatic cries intoxicated the masses. Amid this euphoric farewell feast of a DYING civilization, the voices of nonconformists were emerging from places of Jewish and early Christian worship ..." (Encyclopedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music."

Don't ever envy the musical "talent" used against God and his people: they are like puppets on a string who CANNOT stop singing, clapping and dancing because they are chased by the Hounds of Hell.


Ken Sublett

My daughter attends a large congregation well organized, peaceful and growing.

Therefore, she was stung and stunned in class Sunday when she was told that the church must be like the NEW WINESKIN so that it can reach the community.

The class was warned that CHANGES are coming and they should get ready for them. Some would be upset (from the sowed discord), some would be angry and some would just have to leave.

Does this sound like there might be a BAND which has INFILTRATED in order to DIVERT the church?

Because the lust is always for the NEW WINESKIN promoted by Rubel Shelly and because his "taking liberties" allows the perversion of the parable of the new wineskin, we should remind ourselves that this SOWING OF DISCORD pattern is still alive and well.

It is worth noting that Dionysus or Bacchus (form of Zeus as the Abomination of Desloation in the old temple) is the god of new wine in new wineskins.

His worship promoted sexual perversion dominant in all systems which were RELIGIONS. Christ died to establish the Assembly as a school of the Bible and NOT a pagan worship center.

I have collected lots of Biblical and historical evidence to prove that the NEW WINESKINS is the end time "holy whore" who gave her name "Kirke" for the name of your "temple of religion."

http://www.piney.com/MuWineSk.html

http://www.piney.com/WinFemin.html

This last link gives you an R rated picture of the NEW WINESKIN or Judas worship.

My daughter also noted that when your galloping Guru visited and led the singing many were embarassed and couldn't catch their breath. See also the pictures of the meaning of A Cappella in the Dionysus worship in which the clergy tried to get Jesus into the naked song and dance.

The Words of Jesus: For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the WATERS cover the sea. Hab 2:14

The Warning to the WineSkinners: Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the WINESKIN till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies. Hab 2:15

You will be filled with shame instead of glory. Now it is your turn! Drink and be exposed ! The CUP from the Lord's right hand is coming around to you, and disgrace will cover your glory. Hab 2:16


Ken Sublett

Over the last two weeks, our elders have announced similar changes underway, just not in such blatant terminology. Many of our members are sorely ignorant to what the plan for change includes. A large number of our congregation met to discuss these issues, including former elders, current deacons and other long-standing members. All age groups were present, de-bunking the myth that all young people reject New Testament worship services. My husband and I are involved with this group, as we feel very strongly about it, but at the same time do not want to continue to support any effort in this direction financially, or by our presence give the indication we are OK with it. What do you suggest to someone in this position? This situation is so foreign to me, as I grew up in a wonderful church in Nashville (TN)that has continued to be a strong, vibrant and active congregation without even the hint of its elders considering this type of decision. In fact, the elders at my home congregation would be more likely to burn the building down than take this type of path. HELP!

Susan, if you have ever lived in a house you know that when you SMELL A RAT the trap has been SPRUNG for some time.

This TRAP is for self-selected or peer-selected elders to assume that they have authority to spring some NEW CHANGES COMING. Warning you about changes is part of the Hegel (Hitler, Machiavelli) method of PRAYERFUL BRINKMANSHIP.

They are to "teach that which has been taught" and your obedience is restricted to "obeying their BIBLICAL teaching and watching the outcome of their lives."

Next, the rat began to smell when they followed Jubilee and turned church from synagogue or school of the Bible into a WORSHIP CENTER. This has left many ill prepared to meet the deliberate false teaching and SOWING OF DISCORD head on as a Spiritual warrior.

NO ONE can be so totally ignorant of the Word of God and church history that they can propose MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAMS leading to instruments telling you that the Bible is silent. Therefore, consistent with the right timing and the GREAT TRIBULATION which churches are undergoing, these people are agents of APOLLO (Abaddon or Apollyon) where they get the patternism for a SEEKER CENTER at Delphi.

In John's prophecy, Apollo unleases the LOCUSTS. John is writing to people of the sea area who understood that in their old religion the MUSES serving Apollyon were turned into LOCUSTS or GRASSHOPPERS and sent into the earth. In the right time they emerge according to John to SEPARATE those with the mark of the Word and Baptism from those with the universal MARK of music. The locusts were known as MUSICAL PERFORMERS.

In Revelation 18 they are the MUSICIANS who will again go back into hell with all of the INSTRUMENTALISTS named. These were agents of the "holy whore" who in John's area was Kirke or Circe who forced her name into CHURCH so that she is honored.

Throughout the bible and the history of the world music and musicians have been the prostitutes and sodomites who swarmed around the temples. The universal message in the Bible and other documents is that INSTRUMENTS and beautiful singing tells God: "We will not listen to your words anymore."

If they have LADED you with the heaven burden of CHURCH BUILDINGS then they will try to force the TITHE and the LAW OF GIVING threatening you with Malachi that you will be cursed if you don't comply. Don't buy it.

Many churches are thrilling you with new plans for building and giving knowing FULLY WELL that once the debt is in hand they will chase you off by making YOUR building into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT.

You may actually be helping defeat Christ if you continue to give even pennies. Second, the elders have no authority over buildings and grounds or what NEW AND IMPROVED worship services they are going to impose on you.

If you let them run you away then either the Baptist or Christian church wins with a congenital urge to steal your "church houses of widows."

If your smell is correct then you have been invaded by an ALIEN power of godless men who are terminally ignorant or terminally evil.

Then, you need to get with Concerned Members and post your church and MARK it if they continue. I can help direct you to the Biblical evidence against all of the errors they are introducing in these last days.

Ken Sublett

Sister Susan,

Thanks for your concern for your brothers and sisters at home. I’ve been at Madison for 15 years, attended one of the elders’ meetings a couple years ago about our direction, and regularly attend multiple worship services weekly. There are a couple things I’m curious about your post.

What do you mean by “BLATANT TERMINOLOGY?”

Our worship services still follow the NT pattern. Some may say that an occasional solo is not scriptural, but that can be disputed easily (1Cor14:26). We have about 6-8 people that sit in the front row with microphones known as the “PRAISE TEAM.” The voices of the congregation are still dominant most of the time. We have teaching from God’s Word, prayer, giving and the Lord’s Supper. The songs are much newer than the hymns we sang in the 80’s. Most of the newer songs come directly from the Word…mostly psalms and OT.

You say that you and your husband have been to the meetings regarding the possible changes in your congregation. What direction do you not want to put your contribution into? It would seem to me that you would want to continue in scriptural environment or leave. It sounds like you want to stay and withhold finances. We had a large group do that at Madison before they left. They thought it was all about the money too. No amount of money will be enough to overcome God’s will for His children.

Your last word in your post was HELP! My suggestion would be to add your congregation to the list of churches on this site…if you want to air your congregational laundry to the world. Unfortunately if you do, you will get all kinds of innuendo and comments about your congregation from people that don’t even attend.

Do you feel like you are between a rock and a hard place? My suggestion is that you search the scriptures on your own and pray for God’s guidance in your life. There have been many changes in the church in the last 2000 years. I suspect there will be more between now and when Jesus returns for His bride.

I’ll be praying for you and your congregation…desperately seeking Susan.

Diego Segui

1 Cor 14:26 is NOT a proof text for "an occasional solo". Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for their individualism. They were abusing their spiritual gifts.

1 Cor 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

You may need to study this matter a little more, Diego.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin

Brother Hamm,

It appears to me that the NECESSARY INFERENCE leads one to believe that one would bring a psalm…forget the rest!

Paul never said, “DON’T BRING IT!”

You are correct in the necessity of order. (1Cor14:40)

As usual, you choose to interpret God’s Word for the purpose of supporting your own personal belief. Try reading the Word like a story sometime. God reveals His Spirit that way for those with “EARS TO HEAR.”

Bienvenidos
Diego

Paul was speaking of the WHOLE congregation wanting to do a SOLO. Solo speaks of division: unison speaks of unity: all speaking the SAME THINGS from SCRIPTURE with the singing AND melody in the heart. Notice what was going on in Corinth:

1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, EVERY ONE of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto EDIFYIING.

Everyone does not mean SOLO.

Hekastos (g1538) hek'-as-tos; as if a superlative of 1538, (afar); each or every: - any, both, each (one), every (man, one, woman), particularly.

Only the uncovered women prophesiers of 1 Cor 11 spoke gibberish being FILLED WITH wine or drugs. Many women had been musical prophesiers in the pagan temples. Often they has served like the MUSES (Locusts?) at Apollo's (Abaddon, Apollyon) Oracles.

Paul DOES NOT speak of gibberish in the assembly. Rather, Koine Greek was the language of commerce while many or perhaps most had their own native DIALECT. Koine was a LANGUAGE but TONGUES were minor dialects.

Think of a Spanish speaking congregation suddenly filled with all of the minor dialects and native languages all wanting to sing THEIR idea of a song.

1 Co.14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

Why? Why because Paul had been commissioned directly by Jesus the Spirit to go PREACH in these various TONGUES.

1 Cor 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might TEACH others also, than ten thousand words in an {unknown} tongue.

The PURPOSE of the church? TEACH, TEACH, TEACH: not SING, SING, SING. SINGING, like drama is two or three removes from the SOURCE Who is God. Singing is symbolic and is therefore SPEAKING IN TONGUES. Paul says to us:

I had rather SPEAK five words from God than---
TEN THOUSAND words in poetic or symbolic singing.

The SINGING as well as the DOCTRINAL discussion would be in the speaker's native TONGUE unless he considered the role of the SYNAGOGUE as TO TEACH and not TO WORSHIP and NOT to SING in the pagan sense.

Bruner, in The Holy Spirit, calls CHURCH MUSIC "Low level glossolalia" because it DOES NOT have prophesying ot teaching THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT as its object.

Assuredly Paul compared SPEAKING or SINGING in tongues to (1) the instruments of warfare or (2) the echoing noise like the OLD WINESKIN of the witch of Endor as an INSTRUMENT called the Familiar Spirit.

Sorry, Diego, but you cannot have SINGING out of your OWN spirit (1 Cor 14:2) without authorizing SPEAKING IN TONGUES and REVELATION of new scripture which assuredly some of the THOUGHT LEADERS believe they are inspired to do.

http://www.piney.com/TonguesDialects.html

It would not be evil to preach in Spanish at Madison but it would not be EDIFYING to the English speakers. To PROPHESY you have to speak in the language understood and TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT.

Jesus did not say that He was going to build His CHURCH but "build my SYNAGOGUE" or Ekklesia. The Qahal established as the "church in the wilderness" outlawed the music and "making a joyful noise before the Lord" (the Warrior's chant) when the trumpet BLEW as a signal for the assembly. The synagogue had ONE objective in mind: instructing the assembly. Even the Lord's Supper is to PREACH the death of Jesus Christ and is not a pagan AGAPAE of celebration.

Paul said that if it DOES NOT TEACH then it DOES NOT EDIFY and if it is not the WORD OF GOD it does not instruct with the force of SPIRIT.

Ken Sublett

Mr Sublimenal,

As usual, with traditional zealots, you take the most narrow, hard-headed approach to life and doctrine.

Keep redrawing that plumbline....
keep narrowing the definition of faithfulness.
continue to scare people to death with gloom and doom.

You might want to put Colossians 3:16 under the light of your examiners.
I'm sure you'll see it in its most narrow context,
I however, will choose its broadest.
If teaching one another psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs is to occur, someone must be quiet, which means someone is singing, and someone isn't.

It also says there are three distinct categories of songs;

Psalms: probably, but not neccessarily written with a stringed instrument, which was acceptable in the old testament worship, which you refer to earlier, and not condemned in the new, except by those of you defining the faithful.

Hymns: written by men, for God....
Spiritual songs: God-breathed, spirit-led chants or songs....

I choose to worship God by voice only....
that is what i believe...it is my preference.
It isn't a basis for throwing everyone that uses
instruments into hell.
In fact, it isn't a salvation issue.

Interestingly enough, I had the opportunity to see the first Church of Christ hymnal published by Alexander Campbell, in I believe 1837.

There are no notes in the book, just words.

We can't even decide whose going to heaven and hell in our faith.
Powerpoint with notes, for some is the only way.
Powerpoint without notes for others.
I'm sure at some point that will become a dividing line among Churches of Christ.

And so it goes.

How much grace is it going to take Mr. Sublett to get you into heaven?
How much for you, Mr. Cruz?
How about Mr. Hamm?

Which flower brings the most glory and honor to God?
The rose, the daisy, or the tulip?
All different, but all flowers. All pleasing in God's sight.
One however, is much more complicated to grow than the others.
It's a matter of preference which is prettier, which is most pleasing.

I think Diego was bringing the high heat, and you couldn't get any wood on the ball.

Regards,
Dal

You know that calling people a ZEALOT is calling them religious murderers. But that is NOT judging is it, Dal?

Making wood contact didn't happen! You go into a church and say, "I see that you are ALL playing professional baseball." Me, "thank you." Dal (Paul), "BUT you don't ALL have the gift do you?" Now who would take that as a recommendation? If you think that I am mean you should truly try to understand Paul's making fools of fools.

Strike One: don't care a drop of sweat what you do for WORSHIP in the end time as you pray FOR THE MOUNTAINS TO FALL ON YOU.

I don't draw lines: remember Dal, you have lost it: the word is SUBMINIMAL. I just tell you what the facts are, your THOUGHT LEADERS have repudiated the Word of God in song and sermon and workshop, you PUT INTO PRACTICE their false dogma and are leading players in the GREAT TRIB. There is NOTHING you could do now which would make your assembly remotely similar to the SYNAGOGUE which Jesus said He would build: No, He didn't say he would build a CHURCH or a holy whore. "There was NO PRAISE SERVICE in the synagogue or church." The concept comes from Babylon, Dal.

You put little brother on display, you WORSHIP little brother because the unique WORSHIP word in the NT is to GIVE HEED to Christ by Giving attendance to the Words of Christ. Little brother sings the EROTIC PRAISE songs then that makes you WIMBERIZED and literally fulfilling the definition of SINGING which was always associated with warfare, FORNICATION or slaughter of animals. You play instruments which is the ABSOLUTE INTENTION of the ORGANUM type singing which produces the feeling of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUALITY then you literally are PLAYERS which throughout the Bible were prostitutes or sodomites. That is why Jesus cast the MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM OUT LIKE DUNG. The Dung went to TOPHETH, once the king's music grove but turned into hell where the dung feeds the fires and maggots.

Little Singers and Players CANNOT write inspiration. Therefore, they cannot write either Psalms, Hymns, Spiritual songs or Maschils. Therefore, they and YOU are repudiating the REVEALED words of the God of the universe whose goal is not to suck you into your pagan "worship" but to Disciple you to prepare you for the wedding feast: no oil, Dal, NO OIL. It is in the book.

The Septuagint defines the book of Psalms which means PRAISES as Psalm praises, hymn praises, Spiritual song praises or Wisdom or Parable praises. NOTHING any human can write can qualify as either of these unless little brother singer is GOD INCARNATE who as THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST wrote the entire Bible and put His Spirit power into it. Therefore, you guys are terminally hysterical in trying to keep the SPIRIT out of your church. Therefore, you CANNOT be a synagogue of Christ. Satan also has his "synagogues and ministers" and all of history proves that musical talent turned maliciously against the Synagogue of Christ is enabled by Satan. It is in ALL books.

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In The Coming Evangelical Crisis. John H. Armstrong, general editor. Chicago: Moody Press, 1996.

"As Payton himself points out, Paul's commands in Colossians and Ephesians refer to the 150 Psalms in the Bible, labeled alternatively in the Septuagint as psalms, hymns, or spiritual songs (p. 191). The psalter is therefore the DIVINE SONGBOOK for worship, to the EXCLUSION of man-made compositions. This is the SOLA SCRIPTURE principle applied to church singing.

"We see, therefore, that the arts also are consecrated to the services of the beings who dwell in the names of their founders; taints of idolatry whose inventors have got a place among the gods for their discoveries. Nay, as regards the arts, we ought to have gone further back, with the object of drawing man away from his Lord and binding him to their own service, carried out their purpose by bestowing on him the artistic gifts which the shows require'." (Tertullian, de Spectaculis, Ante-Nicene, III, p. 84).

You are REPUDIATING the Holy Spirit whose name is "Jesus" by lying to the world that you are worshiping GOD when you CANNOT BE DOING OTHER than worshiping the performer and your own PLEASURE PALACES.

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"in music, intoned liturgical recitation of SCRIPTURAL texts, guided by signs originally devised as textual accents, punctuations, and indications of emphasis.. first intended to clarify the reading of the texts

Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible

Later the prayers and biblical poetry were CHANTED, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations. Jewish Liturgical Music

The BEST authority you have for PRAISE SONGS singing your own SCRIPTURE is Satan the father of all of those who HANDLE instruments.

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The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament notes that:

"In the NT there is still no precise differentiation between ode, psalmos, and humnos. e.g., in Col.3:16 or Eph.5:19,

in contrast to a later time, when ode (canticum) came to be used only for biblical songs (apart from the Psalms) used in liturgy.

(Our note: Sing in Ephesians 5:19 is Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung)

"a. Odai are the cultic songs of the community. They are not sung by the individual, but by the community gathered for worship...

With solo singing other than teachiing the Biblical text to those WITHOUT a Bible (Christ's songbook) Paul would identify you with one of the uncovered "prophesiers" in 1 Cor 11:5
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Paul didn't command SINGING or MUSIC: Paul commanded Speaking or Preaching or Admonishing one another. This began then by the leader LINING OUT the Psalm and the STUDENTS repeating parts of it. As it grows from Antiphonal to Responsorial to Congregational instead of INSULTING a holy God you learn the 41st Psalm by heart. In doing so, you understand that MUSIC was intended to MELT THE HEART or panic the enemy. No Jews nor early Christian ever worshiped congregationally with instruments or modern like tunes.

Judas whose THIEF'S BAG was attached to a flute case would try but fail to TRIUMPH OVER Jesus. The prophecy was that Judas would musically mock Jesus: Revelation 18 prophesies that this will be the MARK of the unholy whore called "church."

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Alexander Campbell corrected some Calvinistic problems. However, he took the RM back beyond Presbyterianism into deep Apostasy with his COMMERCIAL SONG BOOK. I have seen AC's song book and they were all sung to one of five tunes WITHOUT PARTS. Because you cannot teach when someone is singing and grinding your emotions into bits which is the meaning of melody or PSALLO and is the SOP Jesus ground up for Judas as a sign that, like the musical worship team, he was CAST OUT more or less violently LIKE DUNG.

Much of the MOTIVE for Standard's DELIBERATE SOWING OF DISCORD as MUSICAL SECTARIANS was to force everyone to use the STANDARD song book. And so ALL impulses for singing NEW STYLE SONGS flows 100% from the publishers.

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Dal you didn't get ANYTHING on the ball by comparing one's treating the Revealed Words of Christ (the only Holy Spirit) to one's choice of flowers!!

=======================================================================
Donnie's description of the LORD'S supper clearly proves that the ONE LORD is not in your presence as you mock, insult Him and DELIBERATELY GET YOUR Wimberizing OUT OF SOWING DISCORD. Do I really worrry about that? Not much. I spent more time hand washing honey bees to get the goo off yesterday than I thought about the latter day Jerusalem which is defined as Sodom.

=======================================================================
You are put here by God to test you and train you to move beyond the majors. I don't know what that will entail but The Synagogue of Christ has only ONE purpose: to make you a disciple and qualify you for the great marriage feast. You have one purpose: to buy oil by buying TRUTH and selling it not and TRIMMING your wick.

From a distance I couldn't invent a better method of SILENCING THE SPIRIT of Christ to, like the ancient doctors of the law, TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE and blind you so that you will not recognize that NARROW WAY AND GATE which I believe will be to BEAM US AWAY. It won't be a question of which flower you prefer or who does the most legalistic but paganistic RITUALS: It will be the ones who have allowed Christ (the Only Holy Spirit) to be their ONLY Teacher and preacher Who will reveal the MYSTERIES but not to children "Piping trying to get Him to Sing and Dance the Dionysus MARK of lostness." I believe that you are seeing the charismatic dance of a chicken with its head cut off: Disconnected from the Head.

People believe that they are ALWAYS doing free will. I think not just now. I think that God has sent an evil spirit to DRIVE the luke warms to MAKE A DECISION. Christ marks us with the seal at Baptism which FULLY COMPREHENDS that it is a request for Him to give us A holy spirit or a clear conscience or the co-perception to get hold of the truth and be led little by little to be able to pass the test which we don't right now understand. I think your version of baptism insists that you get suited up for the series and THEN "I will learn the basics: "This is a ball, this is a bat." Paul insisted that the MANY are lyers. Don't buy it.

I tell the truth and don't have even a slight urge to FRIGHTEN anyone. As all of the Biblical and historical evidence proves: once you have fallen as Satan and the Jubal tribe LOOKED TO THE HILLS to seduce you, you will NEVER get back up." Why? Because you are now a sinner? No. Because getting seduced into the LUCIFER worship- stealing ritual makes a HARD WIRED BRAIN CHANGE which associates your SEXUAL FEELINGS induced by the TEAM with spiritual worship and you are MARKED. The end time LOCUSTS or musical performers will look at your forehead or MIND and will not make a check list of your merits. Look in the mirror, Dal.

Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs are ALL INSPIRED by the Spirit of Christ. They were NEVER musical but were metrical to make TEACHING AND LEARNING easier and to substitute Christ's songs for the songs of the hissing (musical) serpents. They are all measured by that other "singing" passage in Romans 15 which is "that which is written." Your boy singers don't write Scripture and this proves that the AGENTS are hysterically silencing the voice of God. Why can't you grasp that? Because you have been marked and you CANNOT worship in YOUR spirit as the PLACE while the little lost children are banging on your head with a bat.

Actually, I love it. I believe that you guys are on the LOOSING side of Armageddon: little "hills" trying to GET WINGS AND FLY and lift themselves up above the plains to become BIG MOUNTAINS. That is why I say you are not speaking to Christ but asking the MOUNTAINS to fall on you. It is sad but it PROVES that Scripture you guys are silencing and the BOOK you are trying to burn is the Inspired Word of God. It's in the book. Unleasing the vials in Iraq may make you want to get your duck tape. Actually, I plan to go outside and breath deeply.

Ken Sublett

Ken,

Yes, I understand exactly what a zealot is, and if the glove fits wear it O.J. Simpson.

I understand your veiled "little brother" reference
as well.

I'm not sure duck tape is what you need, however,
they don't make "goose" tape.

I think instead of going outside, you might need to
take a cold shower.

The rest of your discertation I can't read, unless I have taken medication beforehand.

Get your Motor Runnin,
Dal

DUCK was intentional. Remember "Duck and Cover"? With Jezebel's musical prophets DUCKING and BOWING TO BAAL had a message UNIVERSALLY covered in musical "worship." If the Duck fits, Bear it. I cannot help it that you guys have landed on top of the UNIVERSAL message from the subversion and perversion of Adam and Eve to the Babylon whore (king/queen) of Revelation 18.

I don't intend to implicate anyone but I have to tell you that the IDOL you have chosen to worship even as the "gospel" to bring people to Christ is identical to that of the Jews who tried to seduce Jesus into the song while they piped.

Actually, JUDAS was a SICARRI, you know "Judas Sicarri"?

The Sicarri were more extreme. They carried a daggar and MURDERED their favorite "brethren" in a crowd, threw away the daggar (Like O.J.) and yelled: "Murder, foul murder." Or, you DELIBERATELY SOW DISCORD with the universal WEAPON of Satan to silence the WORD and yell at Donnie: "Discorder, discorder, don't let the discorder live."

The Judas Bag for putting TITHES AND OFFERINGS became a THIEF'S BAG. In the Greek word meaning and ALL of the images of the KOMO shows the JUDAS BAG attached to the flute case of a perverted musician. The prophecy in Psalm 41 is that Judas would try to TRIUMPH over with instruments and the warriors "joyful noise."

Judas is grouped with Cain (of that Evil one) and the Sodomites. The only ASSASSINS were musical performers.

In Battle (outlawed in the synagogue begun by Moses):

"The priests shall blow the trumpets of MASSACRE, and the Levites and all the blowers of the ram's horn shall sound a battle ALARM,

and the foot soldiers shall STRETCH out their hands AGAINST the host...[Lifting and Clapping]

and at the sound of the ALARM they shall begin to bring down the slain.

All the people shall cease their clamor,

but the priests shall continue to BLOW the trumpets of MASSACRE." - War Scroll

"And on the banner of the ten they shall write, "Songs of JOY for God on the ten-stringed HARP," and the name of the chief of the ten and the names of the nine men in his command."
================================

"Making a joyful noise before the 'Lord'" was the universal national BATTLE CRY trying to intimidate the enemy with sound never called MUSIC.

Of Jesus it is said:

They have overtaken me in a narrow pass (gap) without escape
--And there is no rest for me in my trial.
They SOUND my CENSURE upon a HARP
--and their murmuring and storming upon a zither." Ps.41:11

SEE HOW SCHOLARS COMPARED MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS TO:

"Five hundred dinars denoted the sins of the sinful woman.

"then the Pharisee knew that alike his ears and also his LIPS were, as it were,

"instruments for our Lord, through which He might sing the glories of His KNOWLEDGE.

"For this Pharisee was the fellow of those scribes,
whose sentence by their own mouths our Lord gave against them.

http://www.piney.com/DSSPsa41.html

I would certainly be happy if you guys didn't send the wrong message by your choice of GODS: Your god is whomever you GIVE HEED TO. The persona of musicians especially in a religious sense has only ONE message and I simply cannot help telling you that you may not want to defend the indefensible to long because:

Am.8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall CAST them forth with silence.

Cicero notes:

"In these bands are all the gamblers, all the adulterers, all the unclean and shameless citizens.
These boys, so witty and delicate, have learnt not only to love and to be loved, not only to SING and to DANCE,

but also to brandish daggers and to administer poisons; and unless they are driven out, unless they die, even should Catiline die, I warn you that the school of Catiline would exist in the republic.

How will they endure the Apennines, and these frosts, and this snow? unless they think that they will bear the winter more easily because they have been in the habit of dancing naked at their feasts. O war much to be dreaded, when Catiline is going to have his BODYGUARD of PROSTITUTES! M. tullius Cicero.

NO ONE has ever proposed any credible evidence that music AS worship has any other FATHER but SATAN the "spirit" which indwelled the YOUTH. Nor does it have any other performers around all pagan temples but PROSTITUTION and SODOMY. And, we add SLAUGHTERING AND BURNING the TYPE of Lord Jesus Christ as the HOLOCAUST.

But never except as the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in any vile pagan temple inside the Holy Places. The year is 2003 in history and YOU are there. Someone claiming to be the MEDIATOR to lead you into God's presence is standing in the symbolic Holy Place: he or they are the LIVING IDOLS OF TALENT replacing the statue of Zeus in the Jerusalem Holy Places. The fact that they are FASCINATING and you cannot take your eyes off them answers to the OPIS serpent in Revelation and the Nachash serpent (musical enchanter) in the garden of Eden.

Kenneth Sublett

From the Book of Enoch quoted by Jesus, Peter and Jude at least 128 times, those for whom God will come with ten thousand of His saints to execute judgment on the godless are LED by youth indwelled by the SPIRIT OF SATAN to lead the faithfull off a clift by the use of choirs, instruments, exciting rituals and perverted sexuality. Satan is a FOUL bird and his CHANGE AGENTS are "of that evil one like Cain."

Enoch speaks of a rotating eldership under the HEAD HONCHO:

"And I observed during the time, that thus thirty-seven (35) shepherds were overlooking, all of whom finished in their respective periods as the first.

"Others then received them into their hands, that they might overlook them in their respective periods, every shepherd in his own period.

"Afterwards I saw in the vision, that all the BIRDS of heaven arrived; eagles, the avest, kites and ravens. The eagle instructed them all began to devour the sheep, to peck out their eyes, and to eat up their bodies.

"The sheep then cried out; for their bodies were devoured by the birds.

"I also cried out, and groaned in my sleep against the shepherd which overlooked the flock.

This link is only for the eyes of Dal Maxvill:

http://www.piney.com/WinRSBirds.html

Ken Sublett

Dal, you may want to read Rick Atchley's latest buddy bonding with the Christian Church as they snicker at how easy it is to FOOL FOOLS (in Paul's words) and steal whole non-instrumental churches.

http://www.network54.com/Hide/Forum/thread?forumid=177121&messageid=1047942974&lp=1047953366



You will notice that none of these guys can resist the urge to laugh and blame the victim for her own rape.

Ken Sublett

Ken,

Thanks for both of the links.
I find them both interesting.
I have to tell you I agree with Rick on virtually every point.
I do think we are wrong and arrogant in a number of our beliefs.
For instance, I believe in baptism, and its neccessity.
I can't find a single conversion in the New Tesstament without it.
I think that speaks for itself.
There has has been much conversation concerning its symbolism, and even its importance.
You can't deny its fundamental importance in conversion.

I do agree grace has been short-changed in our fellowship, and that others are going to heaven.

I would even say based on the defintion of christianity
Mother Teresa is going to be there too.
Look at the life she lived.
Take her life and example, and you can't find christianity better defined, perhaps in our lifetimes.

I don't know about her conversion etc., but, how much grace, what kind, and to whom by our Lord is his to decide alone.
I know our corporate stance, but, there are a number of scriptures, that would show her relation in good standing with the Lord.

Is practicing doctrinal error forgiveable?
Does a life given to the Lord even though it has imperfections in its doctrine, worthy of grace?

Swinging and ducking,

Dal

Ken,

Thanks for both of the links.
I find them both interesting.
I have to tell you I agree with Rick on virtually every point.
-------

Do you believe his implied lie when he linked Campbell's refusal to engage in ISSUES (???) and instrumental music? I showed you that Alexander Campbell and most of church history repudiated music as pagan and satanic. He is the same INBREAD type as many of the posters who BLAME Donnie for objecting that YOU have stolen his church and that of hundreds more. There can not be a DROP of the blood of Christ in that falsehood.

Do you believe the CLAIM that non-instrumentalists are MEANER than those who use instruments? That's a foul ball and you know it: we are all about the same and I KNOW OF NO non-instrumental group--and neither does RICKY--which has tried to STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES OF WIDOWS even going to law. There is a real possibility that the PERFECTED close harmony in non-instrumental churches is REALLY more abrasive (Melody Psallo) than the instrumental groups WHO CANNOT SING BY PARTS. Maybe that is why non-instrumentalists who DON'T steal churches are more grumpy than instrumentalists who cannot keep their grubby paws off other people's property.

It's a lie that NOT playing instruments is OUR CULTURAL BAGGAGE. I showed you that EVERYONE rejected instruments. Even the Catholic Church and Anglican church tried to OUTLAW them but were prohibited by civil rulers. Do you believe people who lie just to try to get a laugh by MOCKING others?

Do you believe this statement by Ricky:

"I wonder in a cappella churches of Christ, if this one issue isn't going to CAUSE ANOTHER breach...?" His response is enlightening. "I don't know if we have enough energy to split again" (p. 7).

If Jubilee and the ARENA spend 1/4 of a million dollars to try to force instruments into the church and largely fail, did those who continued NOT TO PLAY INSTRUMENTS as they had NOT PLAYED for eternity CAUSE ANOTHER BREACH? That is a lie and NO ONE could be so brain sucked as to believe that one. This is just as rational as saying that the home owner CAUSED HIS OWN DEATH by resisting the ROBBER!! YOU must buy it because you DO IT and DEFEND IT based on YOUR not knowing any more bible or history than Ricky.

Poor Dal, born with catchers mask over his brain!

=================================================


I do think we are wrong and arrogant in a number of our beliefs.
For instance, I believe in baptism, and its neccessity.
I can't find a single conversion in the New Tesstament without it.
I think that speaks for itself.
There has has been much conversation concerning its symbolism, and even its importance.
You can't deny its fundamental importance in conversion.
==============================================
That's MY positon: without exception as far as I can determine your BAND OF MERRY MEN deny your view. THEY say that it is a SYMBOL ONLY of the Calvinistic salvation you had, "when you called God, 'Father'" or "when you believed." A check for a million dollars is a SYMBOL but you don't get to be a child without "accepting the counsel of God for your lives." Mom Teresa "rejected the counsel of God for her life" as far as I know. YOU believe that she is SAVED BY WORKS and that is the SAME legalism which fuels the MUSICAL gang.

=============================================

I do agree grace has been short-changed in our fellowship, and that others are going to heaven.
---------

Dal, maybe you slept through the FACT that those who SHORT CHANGED grace for a FEE now preach GRACE, GRACE for a fee. 'ja know that!

In my little rented room while going to college in about 1956 I typed on my old Remington a WHOLE book on GRACE written by a church of Christer. NO ONE denies grace as the posted article insists. However, problem IS that if you cannot tell the church about WHO became the musical SECTARIANS I can guarantee you from reading sermons that they DO NOT KNOW WHAT GRACE MEANS. To them Grace might-- as well be "a blue eyed blond"--that it means UNLIMITED FORGIVENESS for UNLIMITED SINS. Yep! Even after I get them to struggle to grasp that MUSIC is universally sourced out of hell and was the MARK of perverted sexuality thy respond: "Sublett, you don't believe in grace." What they have said is I am going to SIN and SOW DISCORD and OFFEND THESE LITTLE ONES "SPITE OF HELL" and Jesus is gonna save me by GRACE. Bunk.

Grace is the POWER to conform to the will of Christ. You simply HAVE no grace if you deliberately VIOLATE the will of Jesus Christ. "There remains no more forgiveness for sins" when you turn your back on the WORD of Christ who is not RICKY but the Incarnate God of the Universe.
==========================================

I would even say based on the defintion of christianity
Mother Teresa is going to be there too.
Look at the life she lived.
Take her life and example, and you can't find christianity better defined, perhaps in our lifetimes.
I don't know about her conversion etc., but, how much grace, what kind, and to whom by our Lord is his to decide alone.
I know our corporate stance, but, there are a number of scriptures, that would show her relation in good standing with the Lord.

---------
A CHRISTIAN is defined as a DISCIPLE OF CHRIST. YOU have no right to decide her eternal destiny. And you certainly have no right to USE HER to try to say that deliberate and willful ignorance and disobedience is OK, cured by good intentions.

====================================
Is practicing doctrinal error forgiveable?
--------

I believe that KNOWING THE TRUTH and then TURNING YOUR BACK ON IT and using, say, the MUSIC issue to suck in more TITHERS is NOT a forgivable sins. I believe that deliberate SOWING OF DISCORD is not forgivable. I believe doing to that lady what J. E. Choate defined and which happened many hundreds of times is NOT FORGIVABLE. The HOLY GOD in heaven MARKED that little "sparrows fall" AND He MARKED the Abaddon (long shooter) who SHOT HER DOWN.

I believe that the SEXUAL STIMULATING VOODOO DERIVED singing of silly COMMERCIAL junk while STANDING IN THE HOLY PLACE is not forgivable.

Doctrinal error is forgivable: PRACTICING doctrinal error means that you KNOW TO DO RIGHT AND DO THE WRONG and therefore you are a sinner. In the Old or New Testament I simply cannot find the provision for people who SIN WITH A HIGH HAND. The BLOOD covered IGNORANT SINS. Even Jesus extended his prayer for forgiveness FOR THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO.
=======================================

Does a life given to the Lord even though it has imperfections in its doctrine, worthy of grace?

-------------------------------
You HAVE NOT YET given your life to the LORD if you mistreat and offend one of these little ones. If you deliberately BREAK THE HEART of an old faithful lady then I believe that God will BREAK YOUR NECK like an ox ready for the altar because YOU now have to pay for your own sins.

People who try to make "church" into theater for holy entertainment and use the same VOODOO chant they use in the jungle KNOW NOT THE LORD because THE LORD WOULD NOT DO IT.

What you guys are doing is WORKING the most WORKS INTENSIVE WORKS one can do (music) in an attempt to JACK yourself up into the presence of the Lord. One who has given themselves to the LORD enjoys the peace and REST Jesus gave which means: "Cool it, come aside and rest by this stream and just listen to the bubbles." Please don't be a GOAT by paying to have WOLVES just lade you down like pack animals which is 'spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual'."

The SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST which most "churches ain't" is Jesus one one end of a log and me on the other.
==========================================

Swinging and ducking,

Dal
-----------

Don't duck on stage! Do you believe a FELLOWSHIP is Christian when they encourage dividing families based on MUSICAL PREFERENCE when not ONE single teaching from these new Frog Spirits or Marsh Leapers or Quacks is FACTUAL?

Ken

It sounds as if you're advocating works salvation based upon your judgment of Teresa's life. If baptism is a necessity, as you correctly stated, then it is a necessity - period. Grace is only given to those who receive it through submitting to baptism. A life of service outside of the body of Christ does not merit grace.

Mark Waggoner

Mark,

I'm not advocating anything.
It's meant to evoke for one time on here, a little intelligent conversation.

My question more directly is, if you obey Jesus Christ as the bible commands, by living the life, and committing your heart to him, is that worthy of heaven?

Is the relationship more important than the physical immursion?

Is your answer that we are disbursing grace, based on what we see, or think we see.
Is that the only case in which grace is given?
I assume as well, your saying the body of christ is the "church of christ", is that correct?

If so, your answer is standard c of c.
Of course who is to say at some point she might not have been immursed?
Is that the save-all?
What is forgiveable, and what is unforgiveable?

"For all have sinned, and fallen short"
Are we saying because you have been baptized, and joined your local, withering church of christ, that you get an automatic ticket into heaven?

If you look and listen to our brotherhood, it certainly appears that way.

I'm not trying to be contenious, I'm trying to point out that their migh be falicies in our thinking.

We say we don't believe in "once saved always saved"
but, is that true?
When was the last time someone was disfellowshipped at your church?
As many contend on here, are we supposed to keep all of the scripture?


Dal

I quote your earlier post, "Mother Teresa is going to be there too. Look at the life she lived." You believe that "mother" Teresa (she didn't give birth to anyone that I know of) will be in heaven based upon the works of her life. Yes, she did many "good works"; however, was she IN Christ? Our relationship with Christ begins with immersion; however, it is just the beginning of our new self.

We do not disburse grace - God does. We cannot earn it nor can we receive it outside a relationship with Christ (which begins with immersion). Give me a post-crucifixion example where this is not true? Yes, one must be IN Christ, IN His church, to be saved; however, no where in scripture is church membership emphasized. The denominational world says, "be saved and join the church of your choice." Christ says, "be saved and I will add you to MY church."

I believe that many within the church have allowed themselves to be "denominationalized" in their thinking but that doesn't justify advocating false teaching. I also believe that baptism has become our "circumcision" to a good number of people, as well, but that doesn't diminish the fact that immersion in water for the forgiveness of sin is the ONLY way in which we enter the body of Christ.

Your point on church discipline is well taken; even though I did witness a case of disfellowshipping two years ago. This is not being done based on "once saved always saved"; it is the result of not wanting to be viewed by the world as "unforgiving". The purpose of discipline is to bring people back.

If we aren't to obey "all of scripture" as you say, who is to say what parts we don't have to follow? Is there no difference in willfull sin and unintentional sin? Can we continue living in sin so grace may increase?

Mark

First, I believe that you CANNOT comprehend simple statements. From Nimrod to modern Musicologists the fact is that music shuts down the SPIRITUAL or RATIONAL mind.

Second, "Sublett is speaking gibberish" usually means that you understand but cannot repent. That is the meaning of MARKED by music at Sinai, the Book of Enoch etal.

HERE IS WHAT PAUL DIRECTLY COMMANDED
============================================

Psalmos Psalm: 3-9, 11-15, 19-25, 29-31, 38-41, 43-44, 46-51, 62-68, 73, 75-77, 79-85, 87-88, 92, 94, 98-101, 108-110, 139-141, 143

Wisdom Parable or Maschil: 32, 42, 44-45, 52-55, 74, 78, 88- 89, 142

Eumnos or Hymn Neginoth: 6, 54-55, 61, 67, 76

Ode or Spiritual Song: 4, 18, 30, 39, 45, 48, 65-68, 75-76, 83, 87-88, 91-93, 95-96, 108, 120-134

THIS WAS WHAT JESUS USED AS AN APPROVED EXAMPLE

THIS IS WHAT MOST CHURCHES SANG PRIOR TO FRONTIER VOODOO. Many groups are still PSALMODY ONLY.

One of the first SOWINGS OF DISCORD was the introduction of non-Scriptural songs. And one of the FIRST HERESIES was introducing a CLERGY MUSICAL PRESENTER. It is still heresy.

THE ORTHODOX VIEW

"The church is not a THEATER, where one goes only to see and hear beautiful singing, but a place of common prayer, in which all must participate in a fully conscious manner.

"The intrusion into our Divine Services of WESTERN CONCERT-singing, accessible only to specially experienced singers with careful and lengthy preparation,

----"forced out the choir of believers from a living participation in common liturgical singing and made those who come into church only listeners.

"As a result, there has been a very great weakening of the immense significance of our Divine Services as a "SCHOOL of religious TRAINING."

JESUS DIDN'T BUILD A CHURCH BUT AN EKKLESIA OR SYNAGOGUE: A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

YOU CUCKOOS HAVE THROWN THE "SCHOOL" OUT OF THE NEST AND FORCED LITTLE MOTHER "WREN" TO FEED YOUR PROFESSIONAL PERFORMERS. Stealing church houses of widows is a sin and a crime.

YOUR "Team" violates direct commands of Paul, the approved example of Jesus and the totality of historical evidence.

Your Team deliberately sows discord. You become MUSICAL SECTARIANS and therefore HERETICS.

Your Team starves the people for the water of the Word and LEADS them with fish hooks in their nose into CANAAN LAND which is a rest stop on the way to BABYLON.

If you are a spiritual HITTER or CATCHER then tell the thousands of TRIBULATED Christians why you believe that CHRISTIANITY means:

SUBSTITUTING SILLY FREAK SONGS FOR THE INSPIRED SONGS INSPIRED BY "THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST"

VIOLATING MANY DIRECT COMMANDS

IGNORING THE APPROVED EXAMPLE OF JESUS

LAUGHING IN THE FACE OF UNIVERAL INFERENCES

ASCENDING ABOVE TOTAL CHURCH HISTORY

WITH THE RESULT A STARVED BROTHERHOOD OF SOCIOPATHS WHO CANNOT RECOGNIZE THAT "SHOPLIFTING" WHOLE CHURCHES IS NOT REMOTELY A CHRISTIAN ACTIVITY.

Jesus said that His Word contains SPIRIT AND LIFE: your abomination which makes DESOLATE is NOT any closer to being God than the rest.

Worst of all: little brother performer still bootstraps itself into concerts and sales by claiming to lead a church of 3,000.

Ken Sublett

Susan when SOWING OF DISCORD is accompanied by confession of INFILTRATING and DIVERTING to let the people think that they are on a train to NASHVILLE but you are secretely diverting the train to ATLANTA, let no one assure you that "nothing's wrong." Concerned Members have posted a class session and asked that people comment on it. You can find it by clicking the below link. The class notes are inside the boxes and you can read as much of the rest as you can stomach:

http://www.piney.com/MadHaddonHBClass.html

Modern theologians have decided that the Bible is not the authority in the postmodern (post ME) generation. This means that they explain the Bible in terms of modern practices.

It is important to understand modern Discipleship to Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, in the terms in which Jesus Christ Who inspired the Apostles and Prophets wrote.

The Jewish Encyclopedia on INSTRUMENTS explains MOST of the music which still exists in the world:

----"What Western peoples understand by harmony is still incomprehensible to the Arabs. They consider it "a WILD and UNPLEASANT NOISE, in which no sensible person can take pleasure." Niebuhr refers to the fact that when Arabs play on different instruments and sing at the same time, almost the same melody is heard from all, unless one of them sings or plays as bass one and the same note throughout."

----"There is no question that melodies repeated in each strophe, in the modern manner, were NOT SUNG at either the earlier or the later periods of psalm-singing; since NO SUCH THING as regular strophes occurred in Hebrew poetry. In fact, in the earlier times there were NO strophes at all; and although they are found later, they are by no means so regular as in modern poetry."

If you pay close attention you will discover that the close, professional complex harmony of "religious" songs are the most anxiety-producing in the world. That feeling it generates is "spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonial" and is the BURDEN Jesus died to remove. Moderns have perfected harmony to be totally spirit crushing but they sell the drug-induced feeling as the "Holy Spirit." Not so: it is a morphine high.

The Britannica says that MELODY AS MUSICAL belongs to the 19th century.

THEREFORE, WE KNOW THAT PAUL WAS NOT DEFINING THE WORD "MUSIC" BUT READING, RECITING OR CHANTING.
===============================================
Sure Paul defines INSTRUMENTS in terms of the instruments of WITCHCRAFT or WAREFARE. After defining how it SHOULD BE he says "but, but, but.........

1 Cor 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when YE come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a TONGUE, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done UNTO EDIFYING.

They were singing OUT OF THEIR OWN SPIRITS or MINDS and could not meet the test that ALL THINGS MUST BE DONE UNTO EDIFYING: Paul did not say that ALL THINGS MUST BE DONE. However, he prescribes a practice which would WEED OUT those who were not genuinely INSPIRED. Paul says that they WERE JUST SPEAKING INTO THE AIR.

Sister, the SAME authority which is used to authorize SOLO SINGING rather than one- another SPEAKING the Word also authorizes you to SPEAK IN TONGUES and REVEAL NEW TRUTH. That is what most of the New Style Worshipers also believe but don't buy it.
================================================
PERFORMANCE SINGING Sows Discord: just ask the deserting half.

Unison TEACHING or PREACHING so that everyone can SPEAK THE SAME THINGS created UNITY by confessing Christ as the ONE AND ONLY SONG WRITER as "the Spirit of Christ" from Genesis 1:1 onward.

Ignatius wrote:

Therefore in your concord and harmonious love, Jesus Christ is sung.

And do ye, man by man, become a choir, that being harmonious in love,

and taking up the song of God in unison,

ye may with one voice sing to the Father through Jesus Christ,

so that He may both hear you, and perceive by your works that ye are indeed the members of His Son.

It is profitable, therefore, that you should live in an unblameable unity, that thus ye may always enjoy communion with God.

However,

And He says of Himself to the Father, "I have," says He, "glorified Thee upon the earth; I have finished the work which, Thou gavest Me; I have manifested Thy name to men." And of the Holy Ghost, "He shall glorify Me, for He receives of Mine."

But the spirit of deceit preaches himself, and speaks his OWN things, for he seeks to please HIMSELF. He glorifies himself, for he is full of ARROGANCE.

He is LYING, fraudulent, soothing, flattering, treacherous, rhapsodical, trifling, inharmonious, verbose, sordid, and timorous.

JESUS AGREED:

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Jn. 8:44

======================================================
Paul OUTLAWED self-composed songs (PSEUDO-SCRIPTURE) by defining the so-called "singing" passsages three times:

Romans 15 Glorify God by speaking "that which is written."

Ephesians 5 Teach or Preach to one another with "the Spirit" which is the Word of Christ (Jn 6:63)

Ephesians 3 Teach and Admonish one another "the Word of Christ."

If the PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN writes your SCRIPTURE for "speaking" in the church then he CLAIMS greater authority that Jesus Christ, The Spirit of Christ, The Apostles, that which the Apostles commanded and that which the early church practiced until self-seekers began SOWING DISCORD by writing material to replace God's.

Ignatius was born in Antioch, Syria around the year 50. He later wrote a letter to the EPHESIANS. It is very informative. He called the church: The CHURCH OF CHRIST for which Jesus endured the cross.

http://www.piney.com/FathIgnatiusEphesians.html

It is important to listen to those who saw a different spirit when the TEAMS was first introduced and still function according to attenders.

There is NO MUSIC word used of collective worship in THE ENTIRE BIBLE. When true singing and instruments are used, the universal message is that God has MARKED them. When you refuse to love the truth, God sends a strong delusion that you believe a lie. Jesus said that making up your own Scripture makes one a liar. Therefore, music has always been the most powerful instrument of delusion.

The half which remains in these DISCORDED churches deny that anything has happened!!

Ken Sublett

Ken, you said:
If the PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN writes your SCRIPTURE for "speaking" in the church then he CLAIMS greater authority that Jesus Christ, The Spirit of Christ, The Apostles, that which the Apostles commanded and that which the early church practiced until self-seekers began SOWING DISCORD by writing material to replace God's.
I guess its alright for Ken to write anything he wants to and claim it is SCRIPTURE.

I agree that we need to be very careful that the songs we sing in worship are in complete harmony with SCRIPTURE and just because someone who is a professional song wirter writes something we don't have to and should not sing it in worship to God.

The same thing can be said for preachers, we don't have to swallow every thing they say. I listen to all preachers with caution. I also read Ken Sublett with a GREAT amount of caution and I find that Romans 15 does not say what he says it says but that is nothing new. I noted once before that he can read more between the lines than any one I know of.

What still baffles me is that the moderator/owner of this site would alow such to lead the charge for what they claim they are trying to do. Can't you find something better? I guess it just shows what length some will go to try to condemn anything they don't believe in. May God have mercy!!!

DEAR, UNKNOWN AND UNKNOWABLE MAYBE I HAVE TO JUST QUOTE MUCH OF ROMANS 15. The THOUGHT LEADERS like to quote Romans 14 to PROVE that MUSICAL PERFORMANCE MUST NOT BE CONDEMNED without knowing that both group backgrounds in Rome were ADDICTED to music to produce a spiritual high. Therefore, Paul defined SYNAGOGUE every time he speaks of GATHERING in ASSEMBLY:

In Ephesians 5 Paul's DIRECT COMMAND was to FILL up with the SPIRIT which is the Word of Christ (John 6:63) and then SPEAK OR PREACH one to another. In Col 3 his direct command is to TEACH AND ADMONISH with the WORD OF CHRIST. For the purposes of TEACHING, the Word the only RESOURCE is the WORDS OF CHRIST, THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN OR THE "SPIRIT" OF GOD WHICH IS THE "MIND OF CHRIST" (1 COR 2). WE WHO ARE STRONG DO NOT TREAD ON THE WEAK AND remain "CHRISTIANS."

Romans 15: 1 WE then that are STRONG ought to BEAR the infirmities of the weak, and NOT to PLEASE OURSELVES. ["performers" are PLEASING THEMSELVES which means "through the idea of exciting emotion."

Romans 15: 2 Let every one of us PLEASE his neighbour for HIS good to EDIFICATION (EDUCATION).

Romans 15: 3 For EVEN Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. [I can tolerate YOUR reproaches because I have a REPROACH BEARER}]

Romans 15: 4 For WHATSOEVER things were WRITTEN AFORETIME were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

"Whatsoever was WRITTEN was by the Spirit of Christ (1 Pet 1:11; Rev 19:10) and is the RESOURCE for our LEARNING. We TEACH the WORD in order to LEARN and not get into a CHARISMATIC FRENZY."

Romans 15: 5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be LIKEMINDED one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

Romans 15: 6 That ye may with ONE MIND (MIND IS ALSO SPIRIT) and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. [The only POSSIBLE way you can do that is to "speak the same things" by speaking THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.]

Romans 15: 7 Wherefore RECEIVE ye one another, as Christ also received us, to the GLORY of God.

Romans 15: 8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a MINISTER of the circumcision for the TRUTH of God, to CONFIRM the promises made unto the fathers:

CHRIST MINISTERED BY TEACHING THE TRUTH OF GOD: PAUL DID THE SAME AND COMMANDED US TO DO THE SAME. THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE THE PATTERN IS (1) TO TEACH OTHERS (2) AS THE WAY TO SING UNTO GOD.

Romans 15: 9 And that the GENTILES might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause
-------------I will CONFESS to thee among the Gentiles,
-------------and SING unto thy name.

JESUS' APPROVED EXAMPLE WAS TO RECITE A HYMN WHICH IS A TYPE OF REVEALED PSALM.

Romans 15: 10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

Romans 15: 11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

WE LAUD GOD 24 HOURS A DAY: JESUS was not commanding a LAUDING RITUAL with a professional LAUDING TEAM. I have heard a TV "ministry" which has a LAMENT MINISTER.
========================

Romans 15: 12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a ROOT of Jesse, and he that shall rise to REIGN OVER the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Romans 15: 13 Now the God of hope FILL you with all JOY and PEACE in believing, that ye may abound in HOPE, through the power of the Holy SPIRIT.

THESE ARE "FRUITS" (YES, PLURAL). BEING FILLED WITH THE "SEVEN SPIRITS" OF GOD WAS PROPHESIED TO REST ON THE BRANCH: This was not a "little person" who strokes your nerve endings but:

----Isaiah 11:1 AND there shall come forth a ROD out of the STEM of Jesse, and a BRANCH (Jesus or Jehovah- Saved) shall grow out of his roots:
----Isaiah 11:2 And the spirit OF the Lord shall rest upon him, the SPIRIT OF wisdom and (OF) understanding, the spirit OF counsel and might, the spirit OF knowledge and OF the fear of the Lord;
----Isaiah 11:3 And shall make him of QUICK UNDERSTANDING (SPIRITUAL) in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the SIGHT of his EYES, neither reprove after the HEARING of his EARS:

THOSE FILLED WITH THE SPIRIT ARE FILLED WITH "THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN" OR "THE WORD OF CHRIST."
----THEY DO NOT NEED: INDEED CANNOT "TOLERATE" A SUBSTITUTE WHICH CLAIMS THAT BELIEVERS ARE NOT COMPETENT:

Romans 15:14 And I myself also am PERSUADED of you, my brethren,
----that YE also are FULL of GOODNESS,
----FILLED with all KNOWLEDGE, (Spirit or Mind of Christ)
----ABLE also to ADMONISH ONE ANOTHER.

ADMONISH was one function of SPEAKING the Word in Col 3. A PRAISE LEADER insults both Christ who TAUGHT and His DISCIPLES who are able to teach ONE ANOTHER.

Romans 15: 15 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in MIND, because of the grace that is given to me of God.

Romans 15: 16 That I should be the MINISTERED of Jesus Christ to the GENTILES,
----MINISTERING the gospel of God,
----that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable,
----being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

YOUR TEAMSTERS DO NOT MINISTER THE SPIRIT OR GOSPEL.

Romans 15: 17 I have therefore WHEREOF I may GLORY through Jesus Christ in those things which PERTAIN to God.

JESUS APPEARED TO PAUL AND GUIDED HIM INTO ALL TRUTH: PAUL DID NOT DARE DO WHAT YOUR "INSPIRED SONG WRITERS" DO EVERY SUNDAY AND NEITHER DID JESUS CHRIST:

Romans 15: 18 For I will NOT DARE to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles OBEDIENT, by WORD and DEED.

Romans 15: 19 Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully PREACHED the gospel of Christ.

Romans 15: 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, NOT WHERE Christ was named, lest I should build upon another mans foundation:

Romans 15: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was NOT SPOKEN of,
-----they shall SEE: and
-----they that have not heard shall UNDERSTAND.

Anonymous, I have warned you that the Bible and all literature written before and afterward has the THEME that "ONCE YOU FALL INTO THE MUSIC TRAP, YOU HAVE FALLEN AND YOU WILL NEVER GET UP." You remember Matthew 13 which says that Jesus speaks to you in parables so that seeing you CANNOT see and hearing you CANNOT hear. When the SEVEN SPIRITS of the CANDLESTICK in the Holy Place which is the church or body of Christ have been REMOVED there is NO MORE LIGHT and I can fully understand why you FLAIL like a blind and deaf person when I simply quote the Bible and history to you.

The TYPE of the Temple proves that SINGERS or MUSICIANS who entered the Holy Place were worthy of death. In the ANTI TYPE of the church of Christ if the SINGERS AND MUSICIANS enter in then Jesus REMOVES THE CANDLESTICK or SEVEN SPIRITS OF CHRIST. You simply HAVE NO REASON to have the seven Spirits in your church once you have REPUDIATED both Jesus Christ and His children MADE COMPETENT by "the Gift of the Holy Spirit" which is "clear conscience or consciousness" which means a co-perception of the Word.

I think, Anonymous, that you are just lashing out at ANYONE who tries to bring an 'itty bitty" glow of LIGHT. The Word of God CUTS AND SLASHES and those who dwell in darkness hate light worse than Dracula.

Because you are so hostile to ANY tidbit of the Bible or the UNIVERSAL condemnation of music by the church historians and theologians, I hope you are not HISSING ON ME.

Ken Sublett

You are the most arrogant and vulgar person that I've ever encountered that tries to profess themselves as a Christian. Your attempt at teaching is polluted.

I will give you credit for one thing. You have caused me to study God's Word more and find the Truth for myself. Sir, you have anything but Truth in what you write; or should I say you disguise the Truth in what you write. If the moderators of this site have been lulled to sleep by you, I wish I could wake them.

Cal

I remember when Steve Martin would come on stage and
do his "Ramblin Man" routine, Cal.

It was hilarious.

He always had an aroww through his head, and his
catch phrase was "Lets Get Small".....

I think thats what happened to Mr. Sublett.
He took an arrow....

Although, "Lets Get Small" is certainly applicable too.

In fact, I think "Ramblin Ken Sublett" is playing the Grand Ole Opry this week.

With a banjo on my knee,
Dal

Oh, Dal, you are so DEEP. I couldn't learn more if you sang and spat on the Lord's Table at the same time.

Dal, did you know that I am a PROPHET? Yep. How can that be, Dal Dal? If I quote you the revealed Word of the Word and tell you THUS SAITH THE LORD then I have prophesied.

I have told you in words which no one who has not been hit on the head with a bat--many, many times--could fail to grasp. Unless, of course you have presumed to CHANGE the Word which makes you a Pharisee in Jesus' words and had the INCARNATE GOD OF THE UNIVERSE just plug your ears and put out your "lights" (Matthew 13).

You respond to my telling you the truth about the RESOURCE and PRESENTATION METHOD used to glorify God rather than have a littl affair with the "leader" by accusing me of falsehood.

I thought that it was interesting that an old time preacher who might have lived at the time of Jesus who wrote under the name of Bartholomew warned you about:

Vl
1 Bartholomew saith unto him: Declare unto us, Lord what sin is heavier than all sins?

2 Jesus saith unto him: Verily I say unto thee that HYPOCRISY and BACKBITING is heavier than all sins: for because of them, the prophet said in the psalm, that 'the ungodly shall not rise in the judgement, neither sinners in the council of the righteous', neither the ungodly in the judgement of my Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, that every sin shall be forgiven unto every man, but the sin against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven.

NOTE: All of these positions of walking, standing and sitting define the pagan THEATER.

3 And Bartholomew saith unto him: What is the sin against the Holy Ghost?

4 Jesus saith unto him: Whosoever shall decree (decide) against any man that hath served my holy Father hath blasphemed against the Holy Ghost:

For every man that serveth God worshipfully is worthy of the Holy Ghost,

and he that speaketh anything evil against him shall not be forgiven.

5 Woe unto him that sweareth by the head of God, yea woe (?) to him that sweareth falsely by him truly. For there are twelve heads of God the most high: for he is the TRUTH, and in him is no lie, neither forswearing.

6 Ye, therefore, go ye and PREACH unto all the world the word of TRUTH, and thou, Bartholomew,

preach this word unto every one that DESIRETH it;
and as many as believe thereon shall have eternal life.

7 Bartholomew saith: O Lord, and if any sin with sin of the body, what is their reward?

8 And Jesus said: It is good if he that is baptized present his baptism blameless:

YOU ARE WRONG, DAL DAL. Apollo is the Abaddon or Apollyon of the book of Revelation. Apollo was also know as the FAR SHOOTER (You know kinda like PAN, the old musical worship goat). He was the father of MUSICAL HARMONY, shooting arrows (like PSALLO), thieves and liars. His musical worship team was a TRIO of MUSES cast into the earth and now RESURRECTED as the LOCUSTS (musical performers) to SEPARATE those with the MARK of music (and the LAW) from those with the MARK of the Word of Christ.

He changed himself into an angel of light (a MUSICAL DOLPHIN) and used NAVIGATING THE WINDS to steer MINISTERS into his service at Delph.

http://www.piney.com/ClasHomHymApollo.html

140-164 - And you, O lord Apollo, god of the silver bow, shooting afar, now walked on craggy Cynthus, and now kept wandering about the island and the people in them.

Many are your temples and wooded groves, and all peaks and towering bluffs of lofty mountains and rivers flowing to the sea are dear to you, Phoebus,


yet in Delos do you most delight your heart; for there the LONG ROBED Ionians gather in your honour with their children and shy wives: mindful, they delight you with boxing (BASEBALL?) and DANCING and SONG, so often as they hold their gathering.

A man would say that they were deathless and unageing if he should then come upon the Ionians so met together. For he would see the graces of them all, and would be pleased in heart gazing at the men and well- girded women with their swift ships and great wealth.

And there is this great wonder besides -- and its renown shall never perish -- the GIRLS of Delos, hand-maidens of the Far-shooter;

for when they have praised Apollo first, and also Leto and Artemis who DELIGHTS in arrows,

they sing a strain-telling of men and women of past days, and CHARM the tribes of men. Also they can imitate the TONGUES of all men and their clattering speech:

each would say that he himself were singing, so close to truth is their sweet song.

Thence, swift as thought, he speeds from earth to Olympus, to the house of Zeus, to join the gathering of the other gods:

then straightway the undying gods think only of the LYRE and SONG,

and all the MUSES (locusts) together, voice sweetly answering voice,

hymn the unending gifts the GODS ENJOY and the SUFFERING of men,

all that they ENDURE at the hands of the deathless gods,

and how they live WITLESS and HELPLESS and cannot find healing for death or defence against old age.

Read some Homer, Dal, and understand the MYSTERIES John revealed to those AWAKE AND WITH THEIR CLOTHES WITH THEM.

Hay, Dal, there are worse places than the HEAD to get shot with an ARROW of Abaddon set to the tune of the MUSES or LOCUSTS.

Ken

Cal, sorry that your THOUGHT LEADERS have convinced you that books like Romans have been "sifted through philosophy and PAUL'S PERSONAL AGENDA" and are therefore not to be used for faith and practice.

In addition to Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly (bruce white) BIRTHING the Catholic trinity into churches of Christ, John Mark Hicks notes that:

------"Ethical reflection has risen to the top of our Christological interests. This is probably due to the
recent SHIFT from the EPISTLES to the gospels in
our preaching and teaching. Olbricht's 1979 theology of Mark, The Power to Be, is a good example. [41] In 1987

Is that why you believe that it is vulgar to use ROMANS to repudiate your defense of ENCOMIANSTS as agents of the holy whore in all religions? The entire history of RELIGIONS from the garden of Eden to the end-time Babylon whore (Rev 18) is now "sympathetic perversion" through music to replace the LITERAL PERVERSION to get "moved into the god's presence."

The JUBILEE which repudiates the Atonement, musical performers, Tithing and "worship" symbolism is a planned attempt to MOVE you to the Jewish side of the CROSS: In the Old Testament the LAW added because of the musical idolatry and perversion at Mount Sinai was the MARK. Did you know that fully restored perverted Judaism BURNS ITS PEOPLE to get a message from God? Is that why you guys are LOCKED INTO sacrificing more than half of your members IN ORDER TO GROW?

Why is it that you DO it and I am the vulgar person for telling you that your SELF-PROCLAIMED leaders can't grasp GRASP the meaning of RELIGION?

Jesus, on the other hand, died to CAST OUT LIKE DUNG the perverted priesthood and superstitious "teams" who had many PRODUCTS to sell. This would leave the synagogue which was the church in the wilderness free from the aggressive and sexual attacks from the TEMPLE crowd.

Cal, I can no longer get a picture of the LIGHTHOUSE but if you will look it is a Hebrew (Canaanite) or Egyptian temple form. The two columns are the raised legs and, and, and...you guess what the entrance is. And steeples or "pillars" or "circles" of Circe? Wow, Cal, are you protected. How could you sleep through trying to subvert believers.

You had better hope that I never tell you about sheila-na-gig an explicit part of church architecture. A Cappella was part of the Pope's plan.

Cal quit performing it in public and thinking that I am vulgar for telling you to quick picking your nose as an act of worship. Unkind? You bet. You guys need to be cast out because history proves that you will not listen. Rembeber that Jesus cast them out high and low so don't play that LITTLE JESUS MEEK AND MILD stuff on me.

Ken Sublett

Thanks for the confirmation.

Cal

Quoting Romans 15 may be vulgar to you because Paul EXPLICITELY condemns the worship of the god of the NEW WINESKIN in Romans 14.

The people of Rome came from a Jewish background or a Greek-Roman pagan background. The Romans were predominately devoted to ORPHEUS, DIONYSUS or to the Phythagorean system. The Phthogoreans were fundamentally Orphic and believed that musical instruments could "lead you into the presence of the gods." The Orphics were the only vegetarians and were highly dependant on instrumental music which was UNIVERSALLY associated with homosexuality.

WHY DISPUTE THAT YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF A RESTORATION OF THE "GOD OF THE NEW WINESKIN" and ZOE (Lucifer) explicitely wanting to BAPTIZE SANTA and think of the S.O.N. God as the S.U.N. God?

You did notice that Jesus STOOD UP to read the Word and then SAT DOWN to discuss it in the SYNAGOGUE. However,

"Dionysus certainly ROVES more than the other gods; the traditional picture of him is not one of him sitting sedately on Olympus sipping nectar and listening to the Muses (9 females) sing.

"Rather it is one of him ROAMING through the wilderness, thrysus (a SHAKING) REED bound with ivy and topped with a pine cone) in hand,

"followed by bands of ecstatic women, his Bacchants, and spreading the art of cultivation of vines and of wine-making. Other gods may leave Olympus, but it is not habitual with them as it is with dionysus.

Jesus said that the LUSTING people wasted their time expecting John to bear the SHAKING REED which can be the WHIP in homosexual warfare or a FLUTE.

"The staff to which the name thyrsus properly applied began to be shown as a stalk of giant fennel (narthex) segmented like bamboo, sometimes with ivy leaves inserted in the hollow end. Bacchae were depicted and described using them as weapons. Scholars differ on the extent to which these staffs can be explained as symbols of FERTILITY.

"O ye who dwell upon the hallowed mountain-terraces! shall we chase Agave, mother of Pentheus, from her Bacchic rites, and thereby do our prince a service?"

"We liked his SPEECH, and placed ourselves in hidden AMBUSH among the leafy thickets; they at the appointed time began to WAVE THE THYRUS (reed) for their Bacchic rites, calling on Iacchus (Iacchus or Bacchus, honored by all, DEVISER of our FESTAL SONG and DANCE - (worship facilitator), the Bromian god, the son of Zeus, in united chorus, and the whole mount and the wild creatures re-echoed their cry; all nature stirred as they rushed on.

"Now Agave chanced to come springing near me, so up I leapt from out my ambush where I lay concealed, meaning to seize her.

"But she cried out, "What ho! my nimble HOUNDS (dogs, catamites), here are men upon our track; but follow me, ay, follow, with the THYRUS in your hand for weapon." Bacchae at:

http://www.piney.com/DocEuripBacc.html

Livy writes about the New Wineskin Worship:

--"for two years past, no one older than twenty had been initiated there.

----"When any person was introduced he was delivered as a victim to the priests, who led him away to a place
resounding with shouts, the sound of music, and the beating of cymbals and drums,

----"lest his cries, while suffering violation, should be heard abroad."

--"First, then, a great part of them are women, and this was the source of the evil; the rest are males, but nearly resembling women;

----"actors and pathics in the vilest lewdness; night revelers, driven frantic by wine, noises of instruments, and clamors.

http://www.piney.com/HistLivydeBacc.html

THERE IS NO OTHER MUSICAL TRADITION. WHY BLAME ME FOR "OUTING" THE "NEW STYLE WORSHIP" WHICH BEGAN WITH THE SEDUCTION OF ADAM AND EVE IN THE GARDEN?

================

Jesus also warned that John didn't wear the SOFT clothing of the CATAMITE or male homosexual (dog)

Malakos (g3120) mal-ak-os'; of uncert. affin.; soft, i.e. fine (clothing); fig. a catamite: - effeminate, soft.

---"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor EFFEMINATE, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 1Co.6:9

Musical "worship" and HOMOSEXUALITY are locked together in all ancient Pagan rituals.

Malakia (g3119) mal-ak-ee'-ah; from 3120; softness, i.e. enervation (debility): - disease.

"Comedy (from Greek komos, meaning "revel") was presented competitively in Athens from 486 BC at the Lenaea winter festival, though it fused much earlier traditions of popular entertainment, mime, PHALLIC rites, and revelry in honour of Dionysus. Ancient shamanistic ceremonies also may have influenced its development.

Your COMIC JESTERS are a product of Dionysus the NAKED god of the NEW WINESKIN. All presumptions DOMINEERING forms of rhetoric was to prove that MY thyrus is longer than YOUR'S. Somewhat like pillars and steeples.

NO ONE CAN CLAIM "CHARISMATIC POWER" OF RHETORIC OR MUSIC WITHOUT BEING EQUALLY ATTRACTIVE TO BOTH SEXES.

The BACKGROUNDS of all of the Gentiles in Rome were devoted to MUSICAL, COMEDIC, HOMOSEXUAL singing, dancing just as they tried to force Jesus Christ to "sing and dance" the Dionysus or Zeus shuffle and just as the Hellenic Jews had done as the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Jerusalem Temple.

MUSIC and Shelly's EXHILARATION absolutely induces a DRUG HIGH which causes the "men" to worship the "singy-clappy" boys.

Paul's solution was Christ's solution in Romans 15.

WWJD? Bear with the weakness of others: not CAPITALIZE and COMMERCIALIZE upon them even if you have to chase away half of them. Romans 15:1

Paul says that to GLORIFY GOD is to speak "that which is written." How? With ONE VOICE AND ONE MOUTH.

"THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN, THE SPIRIT (WORD) OR THE WORD OF CHRIST" IS THE ONLY RESOURCE AUTHORIZED. I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR ONE CAN ROVE WITHOUT GETTING INTO TROUBLE. JOHN CALVIN THOUGHT IT OUTRAGEOUS TO THINK THAT A MORTAL COULD COMPOSE PRAISE FOR AN INFINITE BEING.

THAT IS A DIRECT COMMAND IF YOU WANT TO BE A "CHRISTIAN." SINGING SILLY LOVE SONGS TO GOD AND GETTING THE AUDIENCE INTO A CHARISMATIC, HAND-CLAPPING FIT IS the PERVERTED, MUSICAL background of Romans 14.

ANY FORM of music--especially in the modern sense--has been contrived and highly honed to get you UP and running and roving: it does not intend to TEACH.

Ken Sublett

Susan,

I chose to stay and contend for the faith. If you leave, who will champion the cause for those who are unable to fight (or unaware)?

It's not easy listening to the "milk sermons" or the "clapping songs", but our reward will be great someday.

Please feel free to email me if you have any questions. Just click on my name.

Kevin

Speaking as one who has felt the sting of rejection from those who hold to non biblical traditions, those who would make laws based on the silence of scripture-I applaud those at Madison who have overcome the old ways in order to execise their freedom in Christ that has for so long been dis-allowed by so many overbearing elders.

What would be the countermeasure to the silence of the Holy Scripture? Should there be one, necessarily? Should it be the “exercise of freedom” to legislate, modify, rectify or improvise? Which principle would mean playing it more safely: (1) silence of the Scripture or (2) IMPROVING UPON or complicating God’s will and direction for spirituality? Would you not at all give merit to the old ways especially when there is nothing wrong with them? Jeremiah 6:16 [KJV] states: “ Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.” It appears that when the majority of the eldership persists on exercising this “freedom” that you speak of and wins out, it is this “many” elders that are “overbearing” and that you APPLAUD! Besides, even if we had to abide by “the majority rules” in decision-making processes, that would not necessarily be a good rule in spiritual matters. Simply put, a dissenting voice or vote from 7 elders should not be completely disregarded by 8 elders, a majority in this instance, who would demand conformity from a SIGNIFICANT minority.

The humble dissenting elders in the minority have now resigned. The current elders, most of whom have begun serving only since 1998 [with the last 3 having been peer-selected in 2000], should now have all the “FREEDOM in Christ” to exercise their leadership. Thanks to their overbearing attitude! Am I misunderstanding this and your redefinition of “freedom in Christ”?

When do you predict musical instruments will be introduced at Madison? More specifically, “how long will it be until the band and musical instruments arrive at Madison?”
=====================
Donnie Cruz

David, stings are not unique: too bad, too sad but personal slights do not alter the Bible one jot or tittle.

Now, I have collected a whole swarm of people mostly on the non-instrumental widow's payroll but bad mouthing the hand that feeds them by slandering non- instrumentalists with the LAW OF SILENCE false preaching. They appear on my home page.

First, it is the INSTRUMENTALISTS who use the LAW OF SILENCE. They say, God HATH NOT SAID "thou shalt not use instruments and therefore we gonna do it knowing that it will ALWAYS deliberately sow discord."

Second, it is a testimony against the latter day church convinced that the only role of church is to WORSHIP and then "take liberties" with the Bible to define the worship of God to mean "the idolatry of talent."

Jesus told the apostles that he spoke in parables to HIDE the truth from the clergy because they had no love for the truth and according to Isaiah 48 would use it for OCCUPATION. Therefore, rather than just being liars by blaming those who have NOT used instruments for 2,000 years with now making a law from silence, it may be more sinster: to be charitable it means that God has put out their eyes, plugged their ears and sent them as strong deluders. Paul told you how to identify the MARK: if they ask for money then don't believe them.

Why does the Bible speak "from the foundation of the world as Jesus proclaimed" in parables and those who claim to be DISCIPLES or professional Christians cannot see that the most denounced concept in the entire Bible is the use of MUSIC?

Why does all ancient evidence associate musical worship with the prostitutes or pagan worship leaders and we cannot HEAR it?

Why is the Monarchy used as proof for music and tithing when God said that nationhood and the temple were given to lead them into destruction?

Why did Jesus "cast out 'more or less violently' the musical worship/mourning team" and the for- hires cannot grasp it? Or, are they STRONG DELUDERS?

Why did Paul deliberately contradict the pagan religion and make church a school of the Bible with the command to TEACH and ADMONISH and your preacher cannot quote the passage without making it into a commanded LAW to "Sing to one another and make MELODY with your lips"?

Why does the Bible fairly shout out against slick music which FULLY OCCUPIES every brain cell trying to follow and sort out the scrambled tones, and the SILENCE which people hear is so profound?

Why does the Greek Bible (LXX) define ALL of Paul's resurces as INSPIRED BIBLICAL TEXT; and Paul directly commands Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs;and modern pseudo- scholars from once- christian colleges ridicule the practice and actively promote the worship of Twila Paris?

Why do the locusts with scorpion tails dug up by Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon, the father of musical harmony, twanging bow strings, thieves and liars) sting you with direct contradictions of the Word of God and YOU cannot feel the sting?

The truth is there and YOU cannot depend on anyone else to do the hard digging and still be a disciple. If you remember, at the time of baptism Christ promises us A holy spirit, or a clear conscience which means to make us co-perceivers of the Holy Spirit expressed as the Mind of Christ.

If the Word continues to be so silent you may want to back up and get "empaled" with Christ, buried with Him in water to "accept the counsel of God" and REQUEST a clear conscience and you will be surprized how FREEDOM IN CHRIST will let you see what preaching self- speak and singing silly, erotic praise songs will keep hiding from you.

The Bible SHOUTS from the rooftops against music because it keeps the emotions BUSY so that Satan can slip in FALSE DOCTRINE, sting you with death and make you sing, clap and dance and worship the performers Standing in the Holy Place.

Those who continue to tell you that not using instruments is based on silence have one of two problems:

First, they are too Biblically illiterate for you to pay them a thousand dollars a sermon for a joke or two.

Or, Second, they are deliberately deceiving you and therefore STINGING you with a fatal blow. The entire Bible opts in favor that the overwhelming majority of professional teachers CANNOT be right if the TINY REMNANT idea still works. Jesus promised to meet with two or three: don't know about two or three thousand sucked in by secular music and the VOODOO beat of most "church hymnology."

Ken Sublett

There are factors involved in determining the timeframe in which the band and/or musical instruments will arrive at Madison. It’s a wait-and-see situation. I’m very certain that the ELDERSHIP itself—as well as OTHER independent forms of leadership exercising [or allowed to exercise] SIMILAR powers, roles and responsibilities as the elders—is aware of the goings on (successes and problems) at other large congregations. By large congregations, I simply mean those that looked up to the exemplary Madison congregation in the past and have now surpassed Madison in many respects. One congregation is the Richland Hills Church of Christ (still clinging to the church name, but with many of its practices and beliefs being uncharacteristic of the New Testament church). Another is the Oak Hills [Community] Church under the leadership of trans-Baptist Max Lucado, who’s practically had the eldership in subjection to him and his imitated doctrines. The latter uses instrumental music in certain of its worship assemblies—well, it’s probably on its way to total dependence on instruments in all of its worship activities. It uses the cello to make the Communion observance “more meaningful.”

Speaking of Oak Hills, the following information regarding its “WORSHIP VISION” can be seen at its website:
———————————————————————————————————————————
VISION COMMUNITY FOCUS
———————————————————————————————————————————
--- To examine the current spirit & focus of worship in the Oak Hills church family and to create a vehicle to carry us 3-5 years in the future.

--- To define a "culture of worship" that give God all the glory, be unique to Oak Hills, and to fulfill the goals and vision that the elders and leaders have established for the entire church family

--- To build a strong foundation that will support current and future ministry additions & activities
———————————————————————————————————————————
VISION COMMUNITY TEAM & RESPONSIBILITIES
———————————————————————————————————————————
--- Norm Goodyear - Elder Representative
--- Jeff Nelson - Sunday A.M worship, Special Events, Acappella Praise Teams, Ministry Management
--- Robin Smith - Peak of the Week, Choir, Instrumental Praise Teams, Music Technician
--- Jon W. Blanks - Deaf Ministry
--- Merry Hill - Music Technician, Choir instructor
--- Judy Cuellar - Worship Ministry, Projection Coordinator
--- Kaye Daughtry - Administrative Coordinator
--- Scott Hensley - Ministry Evaluation & Progress
--- Benny Jones - Host Ministry
--- Wayne Kelley - Praise Team/Choir
--- Jeff Leeka - Communion Ministry
--- Lisa Lopez - Instrumental Praise Teams
--- Jeff Pickens - Praise Team/Choir
--- Viola Puente - Spanish Translation
--- Ron Rehus - Technical Production
--- Lee Ann Thomas - Choir
--- Doug Young - Praise Team/Choir
———————————————————————————————————————————

It’s mind-boggling to me to have this perception that the 3000+ souls in the beginning of the church in Jerusalem at Pentecost made this much MUSICAL WORSHIP emphasis in its assemblies. Just compare all the activities at the Texas Mother Church—Oak Hills Community Church—with the church in Jerusalem!

Acts 2—“[41] Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. [42] And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. [43] And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. [44] And all that believed were together, and had all things common; [45] And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [46] And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, [47] Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” (KJV)

Well, the Oak Hills scenario has gotten me distracted a bit. But in Madison’s situation, this is first hand information from certain elders to me personally (read my lips): NO MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS IN WORSHIP AT MADISON—NEVER! This statement is supported, IMO, by the fact that Madison’s “worship leader” [as appropriately but erroneously and unscripturally designated] is into ACAPPELLA MINISTRY. He is happy at Madison with his musicians in service [hopefully and more likely unpaid], as well as with the accompanying rhythmic handclapping instrumentation. I don’t think the “worship leader” would be happy for the band and instruments arriving just to drown out his musicians’ performances—which already drown out congregational singing, anyway. Also, the co-leaderships are aware that the dwindling membership should cease to dwindle any further.

This is the trend [or lack of evidence] that I see at this moment—in regard to the arrival at Madison of the lively band and instruments needed during the happy hour. We’ll see. Besides, we still have to see how many more members are going to be alienated at the rate that MUSICAL WORSHIP is currently being conducted or carried out. With the increasing loudness of rhythmic handclapping NOISE, the number of solo performances, the frequency of unintelligible sounds from Keith’s musicians as they perform, the number of performed new songs unfamiliar and too complex for everyone else, etc.—how much longer can “regular” folks handle being entertained and performed to.

Donnie Cruz

Not to worry too much. When you build a mega church, God will send Satan to confiscate it as in Jerusalem. Remember that Paul said that if you want to find Jesus you have to go outside the city or gates. So far there have been 5 confessed groups out of 13,000 congregations.

The local bandit is on the old TRADITIONALISM versus the BIBLE stage. But, somewhere I noted that the BEAST whom most believe is nowhere is now here. I love it. God came as Jesus Christ to TAKE OUT a few from here and a few from there: He did not come to develop their ecumenical or Max Lucado's GLOBAL CHURCH. The BEAST is defined by the Greek literature as PAN the little perverted billy goat of the hills. The HORNS speak directly of MUSICAL HORNS as in the Pan pipe.

Kinsley, David R. The Sword and the Flute: Kali & Krsna: Dark Visions of the Terrible and the Sublime in Hindu Mythology. Berkeley: U of California P, 1975 writes:

"A clown would stroll in with his livid, floured face, seat himself on the railing, and produce from his bulky pocket a flute which he began to play. At once the ringmaster appeared and intimated to him that HERE one COULD NOT PLAY. The clown, unperturbed, stalked over to another place and stated again. But now the ringmaster walked up angrily and snatched his melodious toy from him. The clown gone, and plunging his hand into his fathomless pocket produced another flute and from it another melody. But alas, inexorably, here came the ringmaster again, and from it another melody. But alas, inexorably, here came the ringmaster again, and again despoiled him of his flute. Now the clown's pocket turned into an inexhaustible magic box from which proceeded, one after another, new musical instruments of all kinds, clear and gay or sweet and melancholy.

"The music over ruled the veto of destiny and filled the entire space, imparting to all of us with its impetuous, invincible bounty a feeling of exultation, as thought a torrent of strange energies had sprung from the dauntless melody the clown blew on his flute as he sat on the railing of the circus.

.."Later I thought of this clown of the flute as a grotesque modern form of the great god Pan of the FOREST whom the Greeks worshipped as the symbol of COSMIC vitality--serene, goat-footed Pan who plays the sacred syrinx (pan pipes) in the sinking dusk and with its magic sound evokes an echo in all things: leaves and fountains shiver, the stars begin to tremble, and the shaggy goats dance at the edge of the grove. (qtd. in Kinsley 33, n. 49)

I am telling you that PAN the BEAST has only 7 or up to 10 horns lusting to dance with Pan in the forest and to build their own HIGHT PLACE or worship center.

.."Pan is the symbol of the universe, the personification of nature, representative of all the Gods. His parentage was Hermes or Zeus. His colour was royal purple. He was a dark wine red, sometimes called moon blood. Knots were used to bind up the spirit and immobilise sexual function to close up throats and other parts, untied during childbirth to make free for delivery. Pan was equivalent to the Egyptian Aman Ra, Bacchus the Roman God name for Dionysus, Adonis and Dionysus whose emblem was the thyrsus - A PHALLIC sceptre tipped with a pine cone.

In Seattle they actually forced the young boys to undergo their PHALIC JOURNEY. They had to carry their own THYRUS but they called it an OXGOAD which is the ultimate PHALLIC SCEPTER to , as PROMISE KEEPERS, prove to the girls, I suppose that they were ALPHA males or dominant billy goat of their little hills.

.."It is not simply that we must pay the Piper in the sense of writing a check for services rendered. That is the ethic of the MARKETPLACE. We must KEEP OUR PROMISES, but we must also not put our bellies before our hearts. Paying in this story means attending to the Piper and recognizing him as something more than a poorly-dressed gypsy exterminator. We must see past his motley to the archetypal Trickster.

HERE IS THE MARK OF THE BEAST: THE LITTLE PERVERTED HALF GOAT WHOSE HORNS ARE "KERAS" OR ACTUAL WIND INSTRUMENTS JUST LIKE THOSE OF JUDAS. NOW LISTEN,

At the first note of his flute
DOWN came the lion gate of reverence for ELDERS (old people, not pseudo shepherds)...
I was thrust to the ground as if by a thunderbolt...
How can I describe his relentless flute,
which pulls virtuous women from their homes
and drags them by their hair to Shyam
as THIRST and HUNGER pull the doe to the snare?
Chaste ladies forget their lords,
wise men forget their wisdom,
and clinging vines shake loose from their trees,
hearing that music. (Kinsley 36-37)

Remember that the MUSIC condemned by Amos brought on the HUNGER AND THIRST.

http://www.piney.com/Amos-Five.html

The beast, PAN, has OUTED most of his horns or musical lookers to the HILLS. The dominant male who exudes sexual power over both sexes gives rise to PANDEMONIUM:

"The wild spirit of the DREADFUL, which MOCKS all LAWS and INSTITUTIONS, reveals itself in the pandemonium and deathly silence which ACCOMPANY the APPROACHING and IMMINENT GO. The pandemonium is a genuine symbol (MARK) of religious ecstasy, overpowering all natural and habitual sense perceptions. The Dreadful suddenly springs into being. And, at its greatest intensity, it is as if the INSANE din were in reality the profoundest of SILENCES. There are other deities, too, above all Artemis, called by Homer the Lady of Clamours. But none of them takes such joy in a STUPIFYING din as does Dionysus "the roarer." accompanied by his bellowing, SHRILL-sounding instruments. (clanging, booming)

"The wild uproar fades to a numbed silence - each forms of the Nameless, which shatters all composure. The maenad, whose shrill exultation we think we have just heard, frightens us with her rigid stare, the reflection of the horror which drives her mad.
Aeschylus, in the Edonias, has given us a picture of the wild tumult of the Thracian orgy. According to him, the sound of the flute excited madness. Madness dwells in the surge of clanging, shrieking, and pealing sounds; it dwells also in silence. The women who follow Dionysus get their name, maenades, from this madness. Possessed by it, they rush off, whirl madly in circles, or stand still, as if turned into stone.

REMEMBER that John wrote revelation and used the Greek legends. He might be seen as a crazy writer. However, those OF THE TRUTH understood that John was telling us that we can UNDERSTAND the evils of Satan if we just look where he points.

DON'T LET THEM PANIC YOU: relax and enjoy, as predicted of Apollo and the muses or locusts who sting with their tails, as God separates those with the MARK of the music of Pan, the beast from the faithful VERY FEW who are marked at Baptism with A holy spirit into which such music of demons cannot come.

SURE, they will lie about YOUR old traditionalism versus MY BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE procured from a manufacturing plant as surely as I can buy myself a degree and ordination certificate over the internet. They have NO OTHER OPTION open to them but to SOW DISCORD to see what shakes out of their Shelly Sifter.

PAN IS THE: "Hairy one. Mentioned in Greek mythology as a creature composed of a man and a goat, supposed to inhabit wild and desolate regions. The Hebrew word is rendered also "goat" (Leviticus 4:24) and "devil", i.e., an IDOL in the form of a goat (17:7; 2Chr. 11:15). When it is said (Isaiah 13:21; comp 34:14) "the SATYRS shall dance there," the meaning is that the place referred to shall become a DESOLATE waste. Some render the Hebrew word "BABBOON"," a species of which is found in Babylonia.

Saiyr (h8163) saw-eer'; or satir saw-eer'; from 8175; shaggy; as noun, a he-goat; by anal. a faun: - DEVIL, goat, hairy, kid, rough, satyr

Saar (h8175) saw-ar'; a prim. root; to STORM; by impl. to SHIVER, i. e. fear: - be (horribly) afraid, fear, hurl as a storm, be tempestuous, come like (take away as with) a WHIRLWIND. (They are Navigating the Winds of Change but they will end up on the ROCKS)

"But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Deut 32:15
Psa 106:37

"They sacrificed unto DEVILS, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new (stranger, prostitutes) gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Deut 32:17
Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. Deut 32:18

The Oracle of Delphi was Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon's) Seeker Center. Apollo changed himself into an angel of light (dolphin) and made great music to NAVIGATE the ministers of other oracles to Delphi. Next year, Apollo will be a mascot of the Delphian Games. Can we hope??? 2004 is more likely the beginning of Y2K. It sure seems almost like a supernatural Satanic lust to LOOK TO THE HILLS to worship the "Mountain god" but the music is just a MARK to warn those with EARS and EYES.

Ken

I stumbled upon this site by accident and have spent the last two plus hours reading emails about your problems with the changes going on in your local churches. I am concerned and saddened by the rift that has formed in your midst. However, I can say with certainty that I haven't experienced people being so mean to one another since junior high school. Most of what I have read begins as cleaver entreaty to learn and study the Word only to be quickly followed by bickering, name calling and in-fighting. I am not a bible scholar, but I recognize behavior unlike Christ when I read it.

Its not enough to say that we are lovers of Christ and students and believers of his word. We are supposed to live and behave in a Christ like manner. What I read here would not be an encouragement for a sinner to seek Christ. It would be an excuse to avoid Church and assembly all together because your behavior toward one another is no better than the sinners they work and live around every day.

I'm sure several of you regular writers will bombard this email with scripture after scripture of justification for your behavior and the things you have written. And in true keeping with your previous pattern of behavior, there will be several well placed verbal cuts eloquently backed up by scripture reference. But no rationalization can erase a first impression.

Amazed in Las Vegas

P.S. Don't take the easy route and try to rip on me because I live in Las Vegas. Jesus abides here and loves us too.

Dear Amazed:

I have found it difficult to assess your e-mail and properly respond to it. The following factors are unclear to me:

… If you were able to read other threads, in addition to the email thread;
… Your reference to “your local churches”—did you mean congregations in the church of Christ?
… Your own church affiliation, i.e., religious body (not necessarily your local church)
… Why you chose this particular thread to post your “email” [?], unless you were responding to my preceding article on the band and musical instruments.

I’m unsure if you were aware that what you referred to as “emails” were actually interactive responses among various respondents. I believe we need to understand that this is a religious forum, not a church organization. Participants often feel that very strongly about their views and perspectives which sometimes result in unintended unchristian-like remarks and behavior. We’re sorry for that. We all learn. However, we are fully aware that problems that are causing division in this particular brotherhood are very real. Our objective remains that we do our best to warn thousands of congregations which to this point have not been adversely affected as yet.

May I suggest that you browse other threads from which great studies and lessons may be derived, such as, just to name a few:

--- Community Churches and Churches of Christ
--- A New Big Picture: “The Change Agents Are Coming! The Change Agents Are Coming!”
--- Change Yes: Apostasy No!
--- Keeping Abreast: Reviews of Books and Materials Relating to the Change Movement
--- If Your Church Leaves You
--- To Change or Not to Change?

Please feel free to correspond with me at the above address, if you wish.

Thank you for your post!

Donnie Cruz