What IS the Church of Christ? To answer this, first you have to realize that it IS NOT just another denomination because the name says it all. It is, very simply, the CHURCH of CHRIST. It is and should be modeled after biblical directives, examples and standards set forth by Jesus Christ through the inspired writers of the New Testament and/or including the apostles. It is and should be an attempted reflection, if not duplication, of the practices of the New Testament Church (of Christ).

The one, single thing that distinguishes and characterizes denominations, as well as, the Church of Christ is THE WAY IN WHICH THEY WORSHIP GOD. Modern, “contemporary” times may call for adjustments in some aspects of the worship service but the values of “SPIRIT”,”TRUTH”,”UNITY” and “PEACE” on which it was founded should remain the same. Denominations are only separations from the Church of Christ that decided that it was “UP TO THEM” how they “WANTED” to worship based on their Worldly OPINIONS and PREFERENCES. That sounds very familiar to what is going on now even in many congregations that still calls themselves Church’s of Christ.

“Physical, Carnal or Worldly opposes the SPIRIT”.
“Artificiality opposes TRUTH.”
“Separation opposes UNITY”.
“Agitation opposes PEACE”.


Larry.

Your statement that other denominations are just a separation from the CofC is a joke! The CofC was not even a denomination (and yes that is what we are)until the 1800s. Show me ANY documentation that preposes that the CofC existed during any time before that.

to suppose that the CofC is God's one and ONLY preordained church where the members are the only ones going to heaven (and that is what I believe you did when you described what we are in your mind) is preposterous and INCREDIBLY self-righteous on your part.

We DO NOT have it all right. We may have certain things right, but to say WE interpret scripture the "correct" way and that all of the "separators" or "denominations" are not a part of the "Church" because they do not have it all figured out is an incredibly stupid thing to say. There were men like that is Jesus day, they were called Pharasees and they KILLED our Lord because he said some RADICAL things.

Lets just get down to the heart of the matter. You old folks and some others, do not prefer some of the things that are changing in the Churches of Christ. That is the precursor for all of this "hoopla" about worship teams and the like. It is nothing more.

You use buzz words like "Catholic" and "Worship in Spirit and Truth" and "Be silent where the Bible is silent", but in the end it is just that these changes are uncomfortable for you. JUST ADMIT IT! I would have alot more respect and be willing to dialog with some of you guys if you would just admit that.

I am not a college student either, I am 38 years old and sick of seeing our "denomination" turn away hurting folks who have gotten divorced or are alcoholics or drug abusers just because their life "isn't right with God". and then these same self-righteous "bible-thumpers" want to make sure we worship in spirit and truth singing all of the "right" songs and taking communion the "right" way. At the same time these people are the biggest hipocrites in the church cheating on their wives and drinking and drugging. It is just that no one knows.....And, I have seen this FIRST HAND ALL OF MY LIFE!!! I am not just blowing smoke.

Once we figure out that it is not OK to shoot our own wounded, then maybe we can talk about worship styles and all that stuff. Until then, GIVE ME A BREAK and shut up about what you think you know as the truth.

In the New Testament, the NAME of God is Jesus Christ, Joshua or Jehovah- Saved.

The term "church of GOD" uses the name while understanding that, to us Full Deity is bound up in Jesus Christ. The word "god" is a generic word and is really derived from the word GAD. This is the name of a tribe or a pagan god. As GAD he was king David's SEER or STARGAZER. Therefore, the word GOD is like calling Blackie the mostly- Chow "Hey Dog."

Jesus Christ (always included) when Jesus or Christ are used alone is the name of JEHOVAH GOD. Furthermore, the word 'CHURCH' was a late adaptation from paganism. Our "church" is the ASSEMBLY: therefore, I would be happy with the term The Assembly of Jesus Christ. But almost ALL of history disagrees.

While people speak of the "universal" or catholic church, this was not the NAME given to the church. The Catholic Church in time became an APOSTATE CHURCH OF CHRIST.

Ignatius who died c. 110 and could have known John or maybe Paul wrote to the EPHESIANS:

========And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the CHURCH OF CHRIST, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, "being waxen fat," 116 and "become gross," sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.

"In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished."

Therefore, the church at Ephesus was always know as THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. It had no located preachers, it had elders and deacons (both with teaching authority), it had no deaconesses, it had no music, it took the Lord's Supper,it baptized FOR the remission of sins etc. The CHURCH OF CHRIST gradually fell away but as late as 1911 it was UNLAWFUL to use instruments in the presence of the Pope which were the only official services.

Here is a growing list to prove that from beginning to end when you take then name Jesus or Christ off your church sign you repudiate Lord Jesus Christ.

http://www.piney.com/ChofChristName.html

With all of my compassion for your problems with churches, the SAME people who BROKE the church as a local assembly of friends NOW want to EXTORT tithes and offerings so that you can PAY them to fix what they broke.

The church of Christ for hundreds of years provided "monks" or preachers who educated Europe working, like Paul, as vocational preachers. The church Paul defined in Romans 15 was to ABROGATE the "religion of worship" which would surely further DIVIDE the people in Rome, was to GLORIFY GOD WITH ONE VOICE and the material was THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.

They didn't collect money from the poor to feed the preacher but they collected money to help the SICK or POOR "ONLY." The church may have failed you because spiritually sick people have found a way to siphon off the PROFITS for themselves or to build mansions they call "church houses." In those, they sing, clap and play like children and don't know that you exist.

It may comfort you to know that the BURDEN Jesus removed turned PAGAN SINGING upside down and made it into a community TEACHING and COMFORTING the hurt souls while glorifying God whith "that which is written." When they passed the "collection plate" it was to GIVE to the poor.

Ken

Mr. Sublett,
Thank you for the support.

Larry.

There is only a couple of reasons that I can think of for anyone taking the time to post an article here and not use their name. 1) Because they are not really sure of what they are saying, or 2) Because they feel it is beneath them and they do not want anyone to really know who they are.

Since your response came from the same URL as the PREACHERMAN, I am assuming that is whom you are.

Preacherman,
It is hard to tell when someone is being sincere and not just argumentative when they post such an insulting article as this. I am going to respond to this even though, and partly because of that. I want you and anyone else reading here to know where I stand.

You asked for documentation showing that the Church of Christ existed before the 1800s. Here’s a couple:

Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”.

Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is head of the wife, as also CHRIST is the head of the CHURCH: and He is the Savior of the body”.

These are examples of where and how the CHURCH (of Christ) originated. IT IS NOT A DENOMINATION although many assemblies calling themselves Churches of Christ are looking more like it all the time.

I am not supposing anything about pre-ordination or that anyone is or is not going to heaven. That is in God’s hands. I do believe strongly that there are firm reasons why the Bible indicates the ways and means for the Church to Worship, and organize, not the least of these being that they cause less friction and a more LOVING, SPIRTUAL and TRUTHFUL atmosphere for Christians here on EARTH.

I also want you to know that I AM NOT OLD! (Laugh). I’m three years older than you. Maybe you do consider 41 old but you are correct in assuming that I do not “PREFER” changes that turn “Spirituality and Truth” into “Carnality and Artificiality”. This does make me, and should make any Christian, UNCOMFORTABLE. I “admit it” preacher man!

I don’t know of any Church of Christ that TURNS AWAY ANYONE or SHOOTS THEIR WOUNDED. If they do, they are not truly the Church of Christ. I am and we are all SINNERS.

1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”.

The only business that you have with anyone that you consider a hypocrite is to teach and admonish him or her in what is right. Otherwise, it is in God’s hands and you don’t need to let it bother you.

John 8:7(b) “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first”.

In Christian love and Humility,
Larry

Nice reply, Larry, as one can't argue against scripture!

The church has never been and can never be denominated. It is only some people who have allowed themselves to be denominated. Lineage back to the Jerusalem church is not necessary. The church grows where the seed (Word of God) is planted and watered into fertile ground (sincere hearts). This seed must not be a hybrid variety but the pure Word of God!

Don't feel like your the "old man" here, I've got you beaten by a year.

Mark Waggoner

Oh it is sooooo funny to read your attempt at divining the roots of the DENOMINATION of the CofC. What a HOOT! The BODY of Christ is the CHURCH OF CHRIST. That includes ALL BELIEVERS despite what you think. READ JOHN 17!

The Church of Christ is not a name only we-who-go-to-a-building-with-a-sign-out-front-that-says-so can claim...are you SERIOUS??

I have grown up in the CofC all of my life and I THANK GOD for Him finally showing me what freedom we have in Christ! That freedom includes fellowshipping with those that we may have some doctrinal differences with but have EVERYTHING that matters in common with - J E S U S!

You know if you would just allow the Holy Spirit wo open your eyes and quit whining about what is WRONG with the portion of Christ's Body that we belong to, you might just like it. IMAGINE THAT!

Your tirades fall on deaf ears. Nothing will change as you would have it. Get used to it. Again...you never know, you might just like it.

SYTYK.

The body of Christ is His church; however, there is only ONE body, ONE Spirit, ONE hope, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE immersion, ONE God and Father. If what you say is true (faith only salvation) then the demons are also in the body of Christ - how ridiculous - "even the demons believe and shudder" (James 2:19).

The phrase "church of Christ" is a description of whose we are, not what flavor we are. The freedom we have in Christ is NOT to do as we please, the freedom is from sin - washed by His blood through our belief, repentance, and immersion in water. We don't determine fellowship, only Christ can; therefore, those who haven't obeyed the Gospel aren't in fellowship with either Christ or those who have obeyed Christ (I John 1:1-7).

Perhaps you should allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes by meditating on God's Word, after all, that is how the Holy Spirit works in our lives today. You are correct, to some extent, about deaf ears; "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths" (II Timothy 4:3-4).

"He who has ears, let him hear." - Jesus the Christ

Mark Waggoner

I hope you are proud of the positive, influence in Christian maturity you are projecting here to people who may know or possibly may not know anything about Christianity.

I have to dissect this one.

The NAMELESS person ‘SYTYK’ made remarks in parenthesis. My remarks are marked with “*”;

(“Oh it is sooooo funny to read your attempt at divining the roots of the DENOMINATION of the CofC. What a HOOT! The BODY of Christ is the CHURCH OF CHRIST. That includes ALL BELIEVERS despite what you think. READ JOHN 17!”)

* I’m happy to be so amusing to you but if this is funny to you then you must be, as someone else said here before, just full of wit. I think you misspelled “defining” as “divining”, or did you do that on purpose? I will concede the term of DENOMINATION as a NAMING CONVENTION ONLY but the TRUE Church of Christ is not and never will be SECTARIAN. Correct! The Body of Christ IS the Church of Christ. It is a SPIRITUAL thing, not a PHYSICAL or WORLDLY thing! I did not say that it did not include ALL BELIEVERS and that is not WHAT I THINK. I have read Jesus’s prayer in John 17. I especially find verses 14 through 16 applicable here. You read them.

(“The Church of Christ is not a name only we-who-go-to-a-building-with-a-sign-out-front-that-says-so can claim...are you SERIOUS??”)

* I don’t believe that I have said this AT ALL! Or even insinuated it.

(“I have grown up in the CofC all of my life and I THANK GOD for Him finally showing me what freedom we have in Christ! That freedom includes fellowshipping with those that we may have some doctrinal differences with but have EVERYTHING that matters in common with - J E S U S!”)

* I grew up in the Church of Christ (that’s what the acronym you used stands for) also. We do not have the FREEDOM to TEACH (that’s what doctrine is) anything that opposes the values and characteristics of Unity, Peace, Spirituality and Truth exemplified and commanded by the Apostles and Jesus respectively for worship. THAT IS EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS (IN WORSHIP). The LORD is the object of our worship, appreciation and thankfulness. I fellowship with anyone, consider myself a friend to anyone and will help anyone in any way that I can, if asked. However, I AM quite repelling to un-friendly, un-kind people or people who EXALT themselves.


(“You know if you would just allow the Holy Spirit wo open your eyes and quit whining about what is WRONG with the portion of Christ's Body that we belong to, you might just like it. IMAGINE THAT!”)

* Mine eyes “are” open and the Holy Spirit speaks to me through the Words of the Bible. I NEVER whine, I am only echoing what the Holy Spirit has taught me through the WORD and the theology of the Church. I have yet to here a shred of biblical or doctrinal (as if these should be two different things) evidence to the contrary, only snide and immature remarks.


(“Your tirades fall on deaf ears. Nothing will change as you would have it. Get used to it. Again...you never know, you might just like it.”)

* I can definitely assume that YOU are not DEAF. The way that “I” would have it does not matter, only God. I will never get used to “Unity, Peace, Spirit and Truth” being replaced by “Separation, Agitation, Carnality and Artificiality”. I HAVE tried worshipping where such things were practiced and it was Detrimental and Distracting to my Spirituality, Reverent worship and especially my Concentration.


Ever Looking to the Word,

Larry

Larry, I am sure that Jesus is crying just as I am. You vanity SHOWS!! You, and others like you, try to make Christ's church your own by TELLING others what is right and what is wrong, and if we do not agree, then ostracising takes place. The way you do that is to twist and turn scripture to YOUR way of thinking.

SHAMEFUL!!!

Do you think that you have all scripture interpreted 100% correctly? If not, then the ANSWER is, you might have SOMETHING wrong. If so, then others can be right where you are wrong....see where this is going? You are intelligent enough to see the ABSOLUTELY PERFECT LOGIC...

BH

I am not ASHAMED and,
"I" am not VAIN,
I look to the WORD for answers,
and "I" USE MY NAME.

Larry,
My brother I share in your concern over the direction of worship. However, the very nature of worship and adoration of Christ is self expressive. God in His wisdom called upon Adam to name the animals. We are to love the Lord our God with OUR heart, soul and strength. If the forms style and customs of worship were a fixed thing through history than Chales Westley would be anathama.
Secoundly the Church of Christ, as it should be called since He founded it, is defined more by relationship than by title. God moves in several bodies of believers.
Every body of believers is guided by a systematic theology. I doubt that anyone who simply sat down with the scriptures would come away with the teachings of the "Church of Christ" or and denomination in total. We as believers are guided by teaching and our relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit. In His Grace and mercy God allows for the diversity of His body. In essentials unity.
Love in Christ, Kevin

Kevin,

You said, "My brother I share in your concern over the direction of worship. However, the very nature of worship and adoration of Christ is self expressive."

You are wrong about that. It is not to be self expressive but an expression from self to God. God has aready decided in what way we would express our worship. song, prayer, Lord's Supper, preaching, and giving. God has also given guidlines of how to worship, John 4:24, in spirit (from our hearts, meaningful, sincere) and truth (from God's Word (directly and correctly). We were not told to just do it in spirit, or else we could do anything as many do today. Spirit and Truth are our guidelines. God has also given the true way to worship in the acts of worship, Giving is to be done not grudgingly or of Necessity. Preaching is to be as the Oracles of God. Lord's Supper is to be done as Jesus institued it and not with changes or mixes. Prayer is to be done frequintley ant directed to the Father with divine reverence and sincerity. Song is to be the fruit of our lips music made in our hearts to the Lord and teaching and admonishing one another.

Worship is from self but not of self. We do not have the right to Worship god in any way we want. We do not have right to change worship to fit our wants. Read Lev. 10:1-2 Nadab and Abihu would love for it to be as you say.

The title of the church shows the relationship. Title is as much of the relationship as the relationship. Can you imagine a mans wife not going by her husbands name. Or taking a name she wants because its sounds better or because there are some that have made the s\name she wold get common?

The church as the bride of Christ can not call itself by any other name than what was given. Acts 11:26

Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit??? What???

I don't understand that. Matt. 28:18-20

What is an essential?
Worship?
Name?
Doctrine?
Organization?

The Church of Christ would not be what it is if we did not study for ourselves to get a system of belief.
Traditions (like number of songs before prayer, color of carpet, meeting times) are different from place to place.

But the essential doctrines are almost identical and I have never talked with them to make them the same.

Brother Kevin,
I just want to respond to one of your comments and direct you to read Chris's response for everthing else. I do not know Chris but he probably said it better than I could.

The only thing that I want to say is this:

The FOUNDER of the "CHURCH OF CHRIST" was JESUS CHRIST thus the "CHURCH (OF CHRIST)". I did not want anyone reading here to mis-interpret your statement and think that it meant that a MAN founded it.

Thanks,
Larry

Kevin,

I’m not sure of your familiarity with the men of the Restoration Movement in America. Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone and other men of that era, at varying times and locations, coming from varying religious groups, did their studies of the Bible independently of each other. Although there were slight differences among themselves in certain matters, they all had this common ground that there should be ONLY ONE New Testament church that belongs to Christ.

Please don’t doubt that anyone who “simply sat down with the scriptures would come away with the teachings” based on the scriptures. This is evidenced quite frequently by the fact that there have been other similar “restoration” movements in other countries. The results have been the same: the church of Christ was established in Jerusalem (not in Rome, not in America) on the day of Pentecost, when the power of the Holy Ghost was inexplicably, extraordinarily and supernaturally demonstrated (truly charismatic—not by today’s definition). They have come to the same conclusion—in terms of the nature of the church, of its government, of its pattern of beliefs and practices, of the requirements for those who seek salvation according to the gospel plan—just to name a few.

We need to stop thinking about Christ’s church as some form of a club or social/political organization, but rather as a body of Christians, believers and disciples who are added to it, when they have repented and have been baptized in order to: (1) receive forgiveness OF SINS and (2) receive the Holy Spirit’s gift, which is NOT the Holy Spirit itself, but rather is a clear conscience or “when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” as expressed in Acts 2:38; 3:19.

I agree with you on the importance of our relationship to Jesus, but we must not forget that one cannot begin and be in that relationship until and unless the prospective believer has fulfilled the requirements of entrance into His kingdom by first becoming a CHRISTIAN, according to the scriptures. I also agree with you that the believers are then guided by the holy Spirit, but NOT because of what we hear as the “call” or the “whisper,” but through God’s revealed word—which is also how the Spirit dwells in us.

Keep in mind that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 does not mean the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is simply “refreshing” coming “from the presence of the Lord” when salvation is obtained. If we can get that straight in our minds, we will come to the conclusion that the indwelling is not of the Holy Spirit “person” of the godhead. The Spirit is truth. “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is TRUTH” (I John 5:6). Jesus is also the truth. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). This is how a Christian is “SPIRIT-FILLED” (NOT in the modern “charismatic” understanding of being “spirit-filled” meaning verbally, audibly or directly influenced).

It is common knowledge that there is NO UNITY IN THE DIVERSITY OF DENOMINATIONAL BODIES, regardless of movements to unify and regardless of attempted ecumenical movements. So, we must also keep in mind that the church does not consist of a diversity of bodies (if you mean various religious denominations); it is rather a diversity of members with the same mind and judgment within that one body of Christ. “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (I Cor. 1:10)

I believe that in order to preserve the unity in the church of our Lord, we must not only resist the CHANGE AGENTS and thwart their subtle schemes to transform the church into something else, but we must also continue to follow God’s commands, principles and guidelines as revealed only in His word.

Donnie Cruz

Donnie,

I have to disagree with you when you say the Holy Spirit is not in us.
I could spit out 30 verses to disput this, but will stick with a few.

The Bible says we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:19 states:
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, WHO IS IN YOU, whom you have from God, and you are not your own.
Ephesian 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance,until the redemption of the purchased possesion, to the praise of his glory.
2 Timothy 1:14. States
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
There are many more including those that warn us about rejecting the Holy Spirit.

I would never say the Holy Spirit doesnt dwell in us. The Bible clearly says it does, if we are a true believer.
If you feel the Holy Spirit doesnt dwell in you, you must examine your faith, to see if you are in the faith.

The Word also says "John baptised with water, but I will baptise with the Holy Spirit.

This is a VERY serious issue.

David,

Just a quick response….

I never did say that the Spirit of God does not dwell in the believer.

I am quoting the verses you listed above:

I Corinthians 6:“[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [19] What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” (KJV)

Ephesians 1:“[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] WHICH is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (KJV)

II Timothy 1:“[14] That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost WHICH dwelleth in us.” (KJV)

Donnie

David,
I just want to go on record as saying that I DID NOT understand Donnie's statement to mean the same thing that you understood it to mean. Rather than put words in anyone's mouth, I am just going to let Donnie respond. You are right this is a serious issue, a very delicate issue and one that is widely misunderstood.
I think this is the statement in Donnie's response that your reffering to...

Quote by Donnie: "Keep in mind that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 does not mean the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is simply “refreshing” coming “from the presence of the Lord” when salvation is obtained. If we can get that straight in our minds, we will come to the conclusion that the indwelling is not of the Holy Spirit “person” of the godhead. The Spirit is truth. “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is TRUTH” (I John 5:6). Jesus is also the truth. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). This is how a Christian is “SPIRIT-FILLED” (NOT in the modern “charismatic” understanding of being “spirit-filled” meaning verbally, audibly or directly influenced)."

Donnie,
Thank you for the reply. I may have misunderstood you, because the old Church where I attended thought the Holy Spirit was in the world only by reading the Bible, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit was the Bible, that He didnt dwell in us, which I disagree with.
I was just concern for I thought thats what you meant. Since it looks like I was wrong I apoligize.
However I do belive the true Holy Spirit is operating in belivers today. Otherwise the scripture John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spririt would not be valid.

David,

I just wanted to clarify myself.

Kevin Littler’s original post titled “Worship Options,” stated in part (among other things): “We as believers are guided by teaching and our relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit.” That’s a bothersome thought to me because the Holy Scripture does not say anything about the “person” of the Holy Spirit.

I responded to that comment in part mainly because of the misunderstanding among “charismatic-transformed” members of the church of Christ who believe: (1) that the “gift of the Holy Ghost” in Acts 2:38 refers to the Holy Ghost [itself, dc]; and (2) that the indwelling of the Spirit is in the “PERSON” of the commonly accepted “being” of the “Trinity” and, therefore, would justify a believer’s claim that he is Spirit-filled in that sense, and qualify him to behave “charismatically” [whatever that means] to the point that he “feels the presence of” and expects to hear or listen to “the call” or be “directly influenced by.”

Even in the “contemporary worship” assembly at Madison, [some] leaders and [some] members: (a) express that want for the Holy Ghost’s presence; (b) speak of “following the ‘URGES’ of the Spirit”; (c) sing of “there’s a sweet, sweet spirit IN THIS PLACE [emphasis, dc] … sweet Holy Spirit … stay right here with us … and I know that it’s the presence of the Lord; (d) feel that worship in “spirit” and in truth is more of a “charismatic” experience than of knowing and learning God’s truth; (e) believe that the “church” [as a body] can be Spirit-filled or that the “church” can be “directed by” the Holy Ghost in doing about its mission.

I really just wanted to emphasize that the “gift” of the Holy Ghost (besides forgiveness being received after repentance and baptism) is not the Holy Ghost itself; otherwise the “gift of” would translate as the “Holy Ghost of” the Holy Ghost. Rather, let the parallel passage in Acts 3:19 explain what the gift is—it is a clear conscience resulting from the remission of sins or times of “refreshing” coming from the presence of the Lord.

While I realize that this thread is about “Worship Opinions and Preferences” and that the subject of the “Holy Spirit” is very complex and we are time- and space-bound in discussing it extensively here, we really must question the origin of the doctrine of “Trinity” [cf. Nicene Creed, 325; Council of Constantinople, 381; etc.] [Side note: the “Holy, Holy, Holy” hymn has not been sung during the contemporary worship at Madison in quite a while. Is that because our “version” of the hymn states, “God overall and blest eternally”—instead of “God in three persons, blessed Trinity”?]

Briefly, the “familial” relationship described in the Bible is between “the Father and the Son.” (Of course, the Catholic Church had to come up with the Virgin Mary being the “Mother of God” or the Holy Spirit as the third person in Trinity.)

“I and my Father are ONE.” (John 10:30, KJV) “21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are ONE: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” (John 17, KJV)

There are numerous passages that support the concept that the Holy Spirit is the holy Spirit of God or the holy Spirit of Christ. For example: “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8, KJV).

In addition, the following passages, as well as the one above, say nothing to prove the Holy Spirit being a different [or a third] “person” in the “Trinity”:

Genesis 1:2—“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Other references: Genesis 41:38; I Samuel 10:10; 11:6; 19:20,23; Exodus 31:3; 35:31; 2 Chronicles 15:1; Job 27:3. Other verses speak of the “Spirit of God” in: Matthew 3:16; Romans 8:14; 15:19; I Cor. 2:14. Ephesians 4:30 speaks of grieving not “the holy Spirit of God.” There are other passages.

When I re-quoted your verses (I Corinthians 6:11,19; Ephesians 1:13,14; II Timothy 1:14), I just wanted to emphasize the word “WHICH”—rather than “WHO”—in reference to the Holy Spirit. (At least that’s what the KJV and the ASV render.) I don’t believe we can designate a “gender” in reference to the Holy Spirit [itself] unless we are referring to the Spirit of the Father or of the Son Himself.

It is the holy Spirit of God or Christ that dwells in the believer: Romans 8:9,11; Ephesians 3:17. Colossians 3:16 clearly states that we are to “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom….” Regardless of how “charismatic” a believer may feel, act or behave, the indwelling of the Spirit of God is not in his life, unless he lets “the word of Christ” dwell in him.

Donnie Cruz

The Scripture tells us of a comforter and counselor...what do you think this MEANS??? It means the INDWELLING of the Holy Spirit, God's Spirit.

Our readers should be reminded that scholars are POSITIVE that Paul did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a seprated Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ (same thing) as in Romans 7 and 8. Because Paul in 1 Cor. 2 shows that

....The Holy Spirit is to GOD what our spirit is to US.
....OUR spirit and mind mean about the same thing.
...."But WE have the MIND of Christ."

If we are bereft of our MIND or SPIRIT we would be insane or DEAD.

THEREFORE, if God has His Spirit ripped away then God is MINDLESS.

ALL of those who used the word TRINITY absolutey dared anyone to say that God, His Word and His Spirit were ever separated. The most common understanding, also used in the Bible, that GOD (as father) speaks through His WORD (as son) using His BREATH which is the same word as SPIRIT.

The conflict in Romans 7-8 has Paul personifying his FLESH and HIS spirit as being in mortal conflect. His flesh "person" had a mind of its own and fought against his spirit "person" and the OUTWARD man often won. I think this shows that if the worship is with the FLESH we will see just what is subverting the SPIRIT which Jesus said was the WORD.

I Corinthians 6:"[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [19] What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (KJV)

The Spirit OF God, again, is to GOD what our spirit is to US. God's SPIRIT is the MIND of CHRIST and the meaning of SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek and in the secular literature is the MENTAL DISPOSITON of a peson or Being. If Paulhad said BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and the SPIRIT is a third and junior member of the Family of God, then the FATHER person is left out. However, I have the spirit of my father when I find myself thinking and acting like my father. We noted that many Greek and non-cannonical writings speak of someone having A holy spirit or A bitter spirit. Walter Scott says that the GIFT is receiving sanctification (holy) or A holy spirit. Qualities like MIND and SPIRIT and FEAR are often personified in the ancient world. "My stomach is driving me crazy" knowing that my stomach doesn't ATTACK me like a "person."

God is Holy Spirit where "holy" means PURE or WHOLLY SPIRIT without flesh and blood but this does not prevent Him from having the THINKING faculties which we identify as MIND or SPIRIT. However, God is never separated from His WORD and HIS "breath" or spirit. To make us holy or "washed" enough to enter into the Most Holy Place where we meet God one at a time in quietness and darkness, and because we are animate and not a pot or pan, God must give us a SPIRIT which only He can sanctify or "certify" as holy enough to come before His throne of Grace. Because God is the ONE UNIQUE HOLY SPIRIT, if He gave you ONE THIRD of Himself He would no longer be GOD. That is why the Father and Spirit dwelling in Jesus Christ meant that HE was full Deity. You cannot have that SAME Spirit literally living in your CARNAL BODY without also being GOD. Therefore, a believer enjoys total joy to know that they are looking in the Word as glass and turning into the image of Christ in mind or spirit. A holy spirit then controls an otherwise unholy body.

...And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for "A" good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

Paul, whom Peter warned you of, used many figures of speech in the same way that Jesus used parables

......Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 1 Cor 6:15

Well, we know, don't we that OUR flesh is not part of the body of Jesus as flesh. Being members of Christ means that we have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST and have been added to the church which is HIS BODY. We are regenerated so that out old natural "spirit" is CAPABLE of entering into communion with God.

Jesus Christ is called the HEAD of the church. Therefore, the SPIRIT OF CHRIST directs the body only when the body listens to the SPIRIT OF CHRIST through His words which enters into OUR head or mind or spirit.

.....What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Cor 6: 16

Well, we know don't we that however intimate we become, we are NOT part of the flesh of the harlot. Paul is showing that we MERGE our natures with whatever or whomever we give ourselves to. We think like a harlot and have the MENTAL DISPOSITON and body of a harlot.

.....But he that is JOINED unto the Lord is ONE spirit. 1 Cor 6: 17 [the HEAD of the church concept again]

Well, we know, don't we that being joined to the Lord DOES NOT MEAN that WE are part of the Holy Spirit 'person..' We are ONE SPIRIT just the way two who think alike are of ONE SPIRIT. That is why Paul identified the sole way to GLORIFY GOD would be for the total body to have ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH and teach one another with "that which is written" by the Spirit of Christ. That is the ONLY way to worship God in the SPIRIT. If we deliberately toss away His WORD in song and sermon then we are ONE SPIRIT with the "worship leader."

Peter said that if we give heed to the prophetic Word we are transformed into the IMAGE OF CHRIST or "the Day Star arises in our heart." That is why at judgment we will be tested by our loyalty to the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which He claimed was His WORD. We don''t know how we are transformed but the WORD OF CHRIST is the only thing Scripture assigns the power to become CHRIST LIKE. I don't know about singers and clappers during GIVING HEED to the Death of Christ because MUSIC is in the realm of LUCIFER. I suspect that he will look at the MARK on the forehead and know that they did not GROW in Christ and are NOT QUALIFIED to live in a SPIRIT realm.

.Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his OWN body. 1 Cor 6: 18

....What? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which YE HAVE of GOD, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6: 19

We have noted that the gift OF the Holy Spirit is the gift which Christ the Spirit gives to us: that is our own spirit MADE HOLY as a gift from God. OUR holy spirit is our CLEAR CONSCIENCE which is the NEW MAN the GIFT of God. Because, Christ as God died like a common criminal to PURCHASE us, we are NOT our own. That also means that we are not OUR OWN when we deliberately sow discord to fracture the ONE BODY. Those who have the Spirit of God in them cannot mock Jesus all over again as we remember His DEATH.

LOOK BACK AGAIN AT VERSE 15
......Know ye not that your bodies are the MEMBERS of CHRIST?
......shall I then take the MEMBERS of Christ,
.......and make them the MEMBERS of an harlot? God forbid. 1 Cor 6:15

We are NOT LITERALLY fleshly joined to the flesh body of Christ. We are members of His Spiritual body, the church of Christ (the body ought to wear the name of the HEAD, don't you think?).

....For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in "YOUR" body, and in "YOUR" spirit, WHICH ARE Gods. 1 Cor 6: 20

If MY spirit belongs to God it is because HE has made it holy because we REQUESTED it from God at the time and place of water baptism. No other event promises this GIFT.

Again, A holy spirit is OUR spirit which belongs to God because Christ purchased our spirits and sanctified them "by the washing of water by the Word." Our spirits are daily "washed" by the WORDS of Christ which He said are SPIRIT and LIFE.

One who has the SPIRIT of Christ dwelling in the heart BY FAITH thinks and acts like Christ. One who CLAIMS to be GOD INCARNATE by having the "literal" Spirit living in their literal bodies are most often moved to SOW DISCORD and commit spiritual fornication and tear apart the body in the MINDS with AN unholy spirit because they CLAIM the same INCARNATIONAL status as Jesus Christ.

Be careful with Paul who, as we have noted of scholars, DOES NOT separate the HOLY SPIRIT person from the WORD or THOUGHT. The Spirit is the Spirit OF Christ which is to God what OUR spirit is to US.

Therefore, we should be careful about using the almost unique views of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly in separating the Godhead into a Family of Gods. That, according to all church history, adds up to being POLYTHEISTIC. And that, too, is very serious. No literate trinitarian would believe that.

Ken Sublett

I though I saw an answer here that is not unique to the Church of Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 (KJV)
The like figure whereunto even Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Christ.

You seemed to say this is an appeal "for" a good conscience. Or to appeal to God "for" a good conscience.
If I am wrong correct me.

It is very clear to me it is an answer "from" a good conscience, or the resonse that would be expected from someone who answers God "from" a good conscience.

Also with respect to the Holy spirit,
John 14: 26, John 15:26 and John 16:7 are all
clear indications that the Holy Spirit would come as a Helper to teach all things, to testify of Christ as the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father.

John 16:7 was very specific: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

When it says I will send Him to you "Him" is capitalized. A good conscience or our conscience would not be capitalized. Also "Helper" and "Spirit" as in Spirit of Truth are capitalized. By Him, Helper, and Spirit being capitalized indicates the Helper being the Holy Spirit.
Not a good conscience.

A text for the visible quality of the Spirit is

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance.

I sure agree it doesnt mean you jump up and down and act a certain way, but instead if influenced by the true Spirit you are a certain way.
I can say for sure in my life to have these qualities show a "direct influence" of the Spirit, for by the nature of man we are the opposite of these things.

Lord Jesus Christ promised:

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jn 14:18

To those who obeyed, Christ would return so that both Father and Son would dwell within believers to the extent that they obey Him or keep His commandments. Christ as Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into all truth and caused them to remember what He had Personally taught them. The Apostles understood their task as middlemen: delivering the Word as it had been taught to them. Our task is to hear God speaking to us just as surely as a foreign nation hears our President through his ambassadors.

And Paul wrote:

.."My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until CHRIST be FORMED in you, Gal 4:19

...."Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGEledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:13

To bring forth fruit to Christ is symbolized by children who are the result of a marriage:

.."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be MARRIED to another, even to him who is RAISED from the dead, that we should bring forth FRUIT unto GOD. Ro.7:4

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Jn 15:3

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot BEAR FRUIT of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide IN ME. Jn.15:4

I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much FRUIT: for WITHOUT ME ye can do nothing. Jn.15:5

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn 15:6

If ye abide in me, and my WORDS abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Jn 15:7

Being filled with the FRUITS of righteousness, which are BY JESUS CHRIST, unto the glory and praise of God. Ph.1:11 (You see, O silly man, fruits plural is ok with God)

For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be BARREN nor UNFRUITFUL in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Pe 1:8

THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS THE FRUIT OF CHRIST THE "SON" AND GOD THE "FATHER" BECAUSE the NAME of Father, Son and Spirit in the so-called "baptismal formula" has one name (singular) it is Jehovah- Saves.

THERE IS NO OTHER NAME and it is dangerous to CUT UP the Godhead like a PECAN PIE and claim for one piece what is ALWAYS attributed to the GODHEAD Which is not THREE PERSONS.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER is the way to defeat God. Don't let anyone DIVIDE the Godhead. With minor and different context in the past, MAX LUCADO and RUBEL SHELLY are the fathers of a neo-TRINITARIANISM which is so radical that none of the people who believed in the trinity every saw the Godhead as three "people." In fact, "person" was really "personae" and defined the complex nature of God as more than a PUFF of wind (spirit).

Rather, He is Father of the Thought, the spokeb Word and the Breath or spirit which projects the Word. God always had his "Word" and "Wisdom" with Him.

A CHRISTIAN must believe that God "materialized" as Jesus of Nazareth. This proves that to be approved of the God of the universes He just wants to to be what the Old Testament always bound up or "hangs" everything on PERSONAL RIGHTE LIVING and THE PRACTICE OF SOCIAL JUSTICE. If we try to "leap frog" the will of Christ who left his Throne to minister, and do magic to ASCEND up to the Godhead (what many simple minded preachers are pushing) they deny that CHRIST who was and is God, imaged Himself as the humblest of SERVANTS. John Mark Hicks warns that Lucado and Shelly seem to deny the FULLY HUMANITY of Jesus. Of course, if true, this defines the Anti-Christ.

Ken Sublett

God sends His ARM as well as His SPIRIT and other "personified" body parts. It is important to build on the foundation of the PROPHETS. Throughout the Bible it is prophesied that God will appear to mankind before the final days. Because God CANNOT be defined to the human mind, He makes Himself known in the ways He works. As WORD, God Himself spoke the world's into existance: the Words came out of His MOUTH by His BREATH which is His SPIRIT. The carnal MIND cannot grasp the message "Hidden in parables from the foundation of the world" because God only speaks to those who will hear Him in His Word.

"We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for JUDGMENT, but there is none; for SALVATION, but it is far off from us. Isaiah 59: 11

..Hamah (h1993) haw-maw'; a prim. root [comp. 1949]; to make a loud sound (like Engl. "hum")
....Huwm (g1949) hoom; a prim. root [comp. 2000]; to make an uproar, or agitate greatly: - destroy, move, make a noise, put, ring again.

For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; Isaiah 59: 12
..In transgressing and lying against the Lord, and departing away from our God, speaking OPPRESSION and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. Isaiah 59: 13
....And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Isaiah 59: 14
......Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. Is 59:15

..And he saw that there was NO MAN, and wondered that there was no INTERCESSOR: therefore his ARM brought salvation unto him; and his RIGHTEOUSNESS, it sustained him. Is 59:16

God then laid aside His garments of glory and majesty (1Ti 3:16) and put on the garments of truth and righteousness:

.."For he PUT ON righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. Is 59:17

...."According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, FURY to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense. Is 59:18

.."So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. Is 59:19

....And the REDEEMER shall come to Zion, and unto them that TURN from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. Isa 59:20

As for me, this is my COVENANT with them, saith the Lord;

....My SPIRIT that is UPON thee, and
....My WORDS which I have put in thy mouth,

.....shall not depart out of thy MOUTH, nor out of the MOUTH of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and FOR EVER. Is 59:21

The symbol of the Spirit was not a singing, dancing fellow: it was a DOVE or known as the ROCK PIGEON. It was a CARRIER OF KNOWLEDGE on the Ark.

The parallel passage from chapter 11: Rather than God's ARM, the BRANCH will have the SEVEN SPIRITS of KNOWLEDGE or WORD resting on Him. The SPIRIT AS the Word is parallel to the SPIRIT in seven forms of SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE. The BRANCH is the MENORAH of seven lamps:

..AND there shall come forth a ROD out of the STEM of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:1

....And the SPIRIT OF the Lord shall REST upon him, the spirit OF wisdom and understanding, the spirit OF counsel and might, the spirit OF knowledge and OF the fear of the Lord; Isa 11:2

......And shall make him OF quick understanding (Spiritual, mental, the MIND OF CHRIST is the Holy Spirit) in the FEAR of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the SIGHT of his EYES, neither reprove after the HEARING of his EARS: Isa 11:3

He's not LOOKING, fellas. He's not LISTENING fellows. He judges in and with His Spirit and not with EXTERNAL superstitious rituals. His primary judgment is AGAINST those who oppose the poor and widow in "tithes and offerings."

Jesus said and I would not want to challenge Him:

"It is the spirit that QICKENETH; the flesh profiteth NOTHING: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE. John 6:63

The SYNAGOGUE which Jesus promised to build and DID BUILD is so tiny that you cannot see it. Jesus said "don't look for it: the kingdom of God is within you." Its outworking has validy ONLY in connection with the Word: even the Lord's Supper is to show forth or PREACH the death of Christ. Paul's word for assembly is always a type of the word for synagogue.

Here is the purpose in Ephesians:

"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph 3:8
..And to make ALL MEN see what is the FELLOWSHIP of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by JESUS CHRIST: Eph 3:9
....To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE MADE KNOWN by the church the MANIFOLD WISDOM of GOD, Eph 3: 10
......According to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph 3: 11

You cannot preach Word- denying sermons and sing MOCKING songs and begin to grasp the spiritual POWER of the Word. When it is read by people unrelated to our civilization they FEEL the power and are LIBERATED with a new spirit when they just do what Scripture says.

.."But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to BEHAVE (have conversation) thyself in the HOUSE (temple) of God, which is the church (ekklesia, SYNAGOGUE) of the living God,
....the PILLAR and GROUND (sedentary, settled) of the TRUTH. 1 Tim 3:15

We worship in the PLACE of the human spirit which has been qualified or made into A holy spirit. In our spirits we GIVE HEED to the Word. If this is NOT the case then church is a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT but is not the SYNAGOGUE which Jesus promised to build.

We were "Navigated by the Winds" of Lynn Anderson, Shelly etal and turned church into a WORSHIP CENTER with "new style song books." Now, we are reaping the whirlwinds because we HAVE NEVER been taught to worship IN the PLACE of the human spirit as we meet God who is "wholly" Spirit and GIVE HEED to HIS Word. those who have rejected the WORD are TURNED LOOSE by God to work out the unseemly nature of their evil spirits.

See the following link to show that our NEW STYLE WORSHIP is the natural PRODUCT of word-rejecting pseudo-scholars.

http://www.piney.com/Shelly-Women-Homosexual.html

Ken Sublett

Notice that God is defined as I AM and never as WE ARE:

Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) the KING of Israel, and his REDEEMER the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts; I AM the FIRST, and I am the LAST; and BESIDE me there is no God (Elohim). Isa 44:6
......And the REDEEMER shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord (Jehovah). Is.59:20

Jehovah is often a hyphented name: Jehovah- Saves or Jehovah- Redeemer (Gaal) are NOT two Jehovahs. The "father" of the Branch in Zechariah is Jehovah- Righted.

The Lord of Israel is both King and Redeemer: He is FIRST and LAST. If we could "see" God we would not see TWO persons. Zachariah prophesied that the BRANCH would be BOTH king and priest on ONE THRONE and there would be harmony between them "Both." God sends as His REDEEMER His Right HAND but we do not see an Armless God and a separated ARM. A Being and His arm are never separated. The Hebrew word for beside is:

..Biladey (h107) bil-ad-ay'; or baladey bal-ad-ay'; constr. plur. from 1077 and 5703; not till, i. e. (as prep. or adv.) except, without, besides: - beside, not (in), save, without
....1077 means nothing, not at all, NOTHING.
....5703 means perpetuity.

H. Leo Boles, GA, Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly and THEREFORE too many have subscribed to the totally heretical view that God is THREE INDEPENDANT PERSONS. The "trinity" NEVER meant that. This family can stand side by side or face to face, converse, form a committee, exist as a family (so they don't get lonely) and have different skills.

...However, the God of the cast- away- Bible WAS NOT AWARE of the other TWO who are EQUALLY Gods. That makes the latter day prophets WISER than God or the most dangerous men on earth.

..Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not "I" told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even MY witnesses. Is there a God (Elowah) BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD (Rock); I KNOW NOT ANY. Is.44:8

..Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: WHO hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I THE Lord (Jehovah)? and there is NO GOD ELSE beside me; a just GOD "AND" a SAVIOR; there is NONE BESIDE me. Is.45:21

..Yet I AM the LORD (Jehovah) thy GOD (Elohim) from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO GOD (El) but ME: for there is NO SAVIOR ("Jesus") beside me. Ho.13:4

There are many Els or ELOHIM. However, Jehovah is the only TRUE Elohim. But, there were NOT two other Els standing BESIDE God when He (the Word) created the Worlds with NO ONE BESIDE HIM. There simply is NO SPACE between the Jehovah-hyphenated works of the ONE Elohim.

Savior is Yasha: He is both KING and SAVIOR but not twins:

..Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy KING cometh unto thee: he is JUST, and having SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec.9:9

JOHN SAID OF THIS GOD:

..IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:1
....The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2
......ALL THINGS were made by him; and WITHOUT him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3

This does not mean that the OTHERS created the world but NOT WITHOUT the Word. No, BESIDES means the same as in the Hebrew. There was NO other God standing APART FROM the Word to give rise to the FAMILY OF GODS making the claim of many who call themselves churches of Christ but making their witness null and void. This was not the view of the Restoration leaders or church history: it is almost unique to a branch of churches of Christ.

Beside is:

..Choris (g5565) kho-rece'; adv. from 5561; at A SPACE, i.e. separately or APART FROM (often as prep.): - beside, BY ITSELF, without.
....5561 means "empty expanse" or "a space of territory" including its inhabitants. Therefore, you CANNOT force THREE PERSONS because THERE IS NO SPACE for "them to fit."

Give it up or keep praising the HOLY SPIRIT PERSON as a separated being and you REPUDIATE the Old Testament Jehovah (never seen as triplets) and Christ of the Bible. The CORE GOSPEL allows only 7 facts ABOUT Jesus to survive out of all of the Bible. That CLEARLY repudiates the TEACHINGS of Christ the Spirit in the Old Testament and the Christ as SPIRIT Incarnated (father, son and spirit) of the New Testament and all of church history. The "baptismal" formula says that Father, Son and Spirit has ONLY ONE NAME. Paul said that FULL DEITY dwelled in Jesus Christ (Col 2:9)

It puts you out on a limb supported almost exclusively by Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly and those led astry by "Sunday School Material."

Give it some thought: My God is not cut up like a Texas Pecan Pie. Sorry about yours. I truly shudder.

Ken Sublett

DAVID: A couple of Responses. August 14 2003, 12:20 PM
I though I saw an answer here that is not unique to the Church of Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 (KJV) The like figure whereunto even Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Christ.

You seemed to say this is an appeal "for" a good conscience. Or to appeal to God "for" a good conscience.
------------
Yes, that is what the Greek world would understand.
This is a NIVISM:

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the PLEDGE [or RESPONSE] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21

This would have US pledging what amounts to A holy spirit to God.

Webster: Pledge: 1. The condition of being given or held as security for a contract, payment, etc

Max Lucado teaches that we are saved by CALLING GOD FATHER. However, baptism is OUR pledge that we "will be good boys."

http://www.piney.com/Max-Lucado-Baptism-Pledge.html

The word translated PLEDGE in the NIV is not translatable from the Greek which is:

Eperotema (g1906) ep-er-o'-tay-mah; from 1905; an INQUIRY: - answer. [Answer is old: we have a different view]

Eperotao (g1905) ep-er-o-tah'-o; from 1909 and 2065; to ASK for, i.e. inquire, SEEK: - ask (after, questions), DEMAND, DESIRE, question.

Erotao (g2065) er-o-tah'-o; appar. from 2046 [comp. 2045]; to interrogate; by impl. to REQUEST: - ask, BESEECH, desire, intreat, pray. Comp. 4441.

....Then one of them, which was a lawyer, ASKED him a QUESTION, tempting him, and saying, Mt.22:35

....And if they will learn any thing, let them ASK their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co.14:35

When you went to the MUSICAL ORACLES such as that of the Python (Serpent) or DIVINING SPIRIT you ask in a different way. However, this definion reinforces EROTAO:

Punthanomai (g441) poon-than'-om-ahee; mid. prol. from a prim.putho, (which occurs only as an alt. in certain tenses); to question, i.e. ascertain by inquiry (as a matter of information merely; and thus differing from 2065, which prop. means A REQUEST AS A FAVOR

Here are some examples:

..The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21KJV

However, the definition of words and other versions prove that it is at the time and place of water baptism that we ASK for God to give us a clean conscience which is the gift of A holy spirit.

..And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an APPEAL to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21NAS

Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the APPEAL of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21RSV

The word ANSWER is somewhat like CALL AND RESPONSE. Christ CALLS to us or appeals to us by his PURCHASE. We answer or APPEAL to him for what He has offered. Baptism is the time and place where we CALL UPON GOD. Since is is a REQUEST it is dishonest to blame us for claiming our reward for work done. It is also dishonest for Calvinists to claim their REWARD for being predestinated.

..(That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ;[c]
....not because our bodies are washed CLEAN by the water but because in being baptized
....we are turning to God and ASKING him to CLEANSE our HEARTS from sin.) 1 Peter 3:21LIV

Paul's use of the word ANSWER in 3:15 was:

Apologia (g627) ap-ol-og-ee'-ah; from the same as 626; a plea ("apology"): - answer (for self), CLEARING of SELF, defence.

Peter's use of
..Eperotema (g1906) ep-er-o'-tay-mah; from 1905; an INQUIRY: - answer.
....CANNOT mean that at baptism we CLEAR OURSELF or CERTIFY that we were cleansed before the "washing."

The problem is just old words. However, the NIV used PLEDGE only in this baptism passage. Each time the text says: "He ASKED for water" it WOULD HAVE translated it: "He PLEDGED for water." They KNOW that there is nothing in the family of words Peter used which can be translated as PLEDGE.

A clear conscience is A holy spirit which is A new mind or inner person. We get that by Grace: asking God for it. A clear conscience is NOT something which we can PLEDGE just because we TRUST that we have been PREDESTINATED to heaven. How do FAITH ONLY People know that they are NOT predestinated to hell? Water Baptism is the ASSURANCE that you have asked Christ for something he PROMISED to all of us who REQUEST it.

That is what about everyone thought prior to Zwingli in 1525 who said that ALL SCHOLARS who lived prior to him were JUST WRONG.

Ken Sublett

A little over 2000 years ago that was Nicodemus response to Jesus when he explained that he must be
"born again" of the spirit.
It seems that as a learned man Nicodemus couldn't grasp this and learned men today cant seem to either.

When he said to Christ "How can a man be born again when he is old? ". John 3:4
Jesus replied:
"Verily, verily I say unto thee,
unless a man is born of water
and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." Jn. 3:5

"That which is born of flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. Jn. 3:6

"Marvel not that I said unto thee, "Ye must be born
again" Jn 3:7

"The wind bloweth where it will, and though
hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell
whence it cometh or wither it goeth: so is
everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Of course all my live I had heard the phrase in
Jn 3:5 paraphrased into "you must be born again of
the water and the Spirit". This wasnt in any way
the intent of the Text.

Jesus explained in the simplest way what being
born of water is and being born of the Spirit is.

To be born of water is to be born in the flesh
which all men are "that which is flesh is flesh".

To be born of the spirit, is to be born again.
"That which is Spirit is Spirit".

The Church of Christ's I have attended have
twisted this scripture verse every single time
I have heard it. They said to be born of water
is to be Baptized, and in this Biblical text
it simply doesnt mean that, but instead it
is used to clarify the difference in flesh
and Spirit.

Nicodemus didnt get it at that moment and
many a learned man still doesn't

David,

You’ve gotten me curious when you say: “The Church of Christ's I have attended have twisted this scripture verse every single time I have heard it. They said….”

Did you mean that you have attended a number of congregations of the church of Christ at various locations? What did you mean by “they said”? Was this in the past, implying that you had been a member of the church of Christ and that you’re no longer a member of the same?

I don’t think anyone is making an argument regarding the difference between the flesh and the spirit. I think you need to be more specific as to what you really believe the Scripture has to say in regard to water baptism and baptism of the Holy Spirit—if these are two separate forms of baptisms, if you believe in only one baptism as in “one Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph. 4:5).

Regarding the Holy Spirit, I responded to your earlier post [cf. Re: Holy Spirit (David K.) on August 15 2003, 6:48 AM]. In that article, I discussed the “gift of the Holy Ghost” received after baptism. I listed some 5 instances where it is evident that some of the elders and leaders and members of the Madison congregation expect to feel the “presence” of the Holy Ghost, etc. I mentioned where the Holy Spirit is or belongs in the “familial” relationship between the Father and the Son. I quoted scriptures stating that the Holy Spirit is the holy Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ and is not a separate “being” or “person” in the so-called “Trinity” doctrine. Romans 8 expresses “the Spirit of God” and “the Spirit of Christ” interchangeably, implying that the Spirit is not a separate being also called God. It is the Spirit of God or Christ—God’s Spirit—that dwells in the believer. The “Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters” (Genesis 1:2). We are to “grieve not the holy Spirit of God” (Eph. 4:30). So, the question in possessive form is—whose holy Spirit? Of God! Thus, God’s holy Spirit.

Donnie

Wow, Mr. Cruz. I had heard from someone who was not a member of the Church of Christ that "you guys don't believe in the Trinity", and I laughed at them. I didn't want this to be true. This is not a slam, but a sincere disagreement, and I hope it is received as such.

Yes, the Holy Spirit is God's Holy Spirit and is God, just as the Son is God's Son and is God. God effectually walked the Earth for us through the Son, and effectually lives in us through the Spirit. The reading of John 14:16 speaks of the Holy Spirit as ANOTHER counselor that he will ask God to send - the spirit of truth, and goes on to say that the world cannot accept him, see him or know him. This is effectually how "we will come to him and make our home with him (v23)" referring to one being saved and sanctified into the living temple of God. Again, in v26 the Spirit is referred to as the Counselor "whom the Father will send in my name" who will teach and remind us of the words of Jesus. You are correct in saying that the Spirit is the Spirit of God and Christ, for as the Son testifies to the validity and power of the Father so the Spirit testifies to the validity of the Son.

Jhn 7:37 Now on the last day, the great {day} of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.
Jhn 7:38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.' "
Jhn 7:39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet {given,} because Jesus was not yet glorified.
(*note that this was said to a large assembly of people, not just to the apostles)

Please read Jn. 16:5-15 (this is all from the NASB)
Jhn 16:5 "But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, 'Where are You going?'
Jhn 16:6 "But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
Jhn 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
Jhn 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
Jhn 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Jhn 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
Jhn 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Jhn 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear {them} now.
Jhn 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
Jhn 16:14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you.
Jhn 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose {it} to you.

When the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost, He testified to the truth of Jesus's words, thus beginning the age of apolostolic power and the beginning of the church of Jesus Christ who have now been enabled to worship in spirit and in truth. I am not suggesting that the church has retained the power that the apostles had -
I am merely saying that from that day on "streams of living water" flowed from the hearts of believers, and continues to this day, praise God.

I addressed this in another thread, and am prompted to say again - it is no wonder that there is dissention and discord among the Lord's people. This is merely an observance of fact - we disagree about the personhood of the Holy Spirit, of course we'll disagree about worship practices! The "so-called "Trinity" doctrine" has been taught in the orthodox catholic Church (by catholic, of course, I'm referring to it's original use in the first century meaning universal)since the first church fathers - in fact, beginning during the first 200-250 years, those who denied the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were deemed heretics by persons in positions of headship who still knew or retained knowledge of spending time with the apostles. I'm probably not telling you anything you don't already know, but you refer so often to Restoration roots that I am unsure of your
knowledge of the rest of Christian history so please forgive me if this is all terribly basic.

This doctrine is very important - as I said in the other thread, if you do not believe in the divine personhood of the Holy Spirit, you will most definitely have major differences with believers who do. If I might just comment on the following:

In the scripture David quoted, it seemed that his point was that Jesus was telling Nicodemus about the necessity of a "second birth", or what some commonly refer to as "regeneration", in order to become a child of God. Indeed, Jesus says one cannot even SEE the kingdom unless he be born again - born of the Spirit. I, too, have seen this particular passage erroneously taught to be speaking of water baptism. And yes, I have lived in 18 different towns and heard quite a few preachers. I've also done a fair deal of reading. It is not wrong to point out poor exegesis. While I have known some very good teachers, I've also known some very poor ones (as I'm sure is true of other denominations) and I sincerely wish we were not so afraid of reading the work of biblical scholars before and outside of the Restoration Movement to compare and contrast what we interpret. I don't rely on Restoration authors simply because they, too, are human and interpreted to the best of their ability based upon their experience, study, and faculties. Though well intentioned, it does not follow that their theology is not without error.

This is actually a very good scripture to begin with to diferentiate the debate at hand. In our tradition, we commonly hold to the fact that we have the freedom of choosing the kingdom, and that once we choose and are obedient in baptism we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. This seems to be supported by various accounts of Acts, except, of course, the account of Cornelius.

This particular scripture from the mouth of our Lord, however, seems to say that one cannot even see the kingdom unless already born of the Spirit, which lines up with other biblical teaching that man is lost, sold as a slave to sin and spiritually dead in sin and transgression (Eph 2) and dependant upon God for everything unto salvation (see John 1 - children born of God). Please don't beat me with Calvinistic name-calling anyone, I'm just stating the obvious.

As much as I can help it, I try not to be affected by the "popular" idea or theory. I do not know what books your library contains, nor do I know the extent to which others who may be reading this have studied the scripture and other helpful materials including concordances and respected theologians. As I hope you will do for me, I sincerely encourage you to study more, and not just within the Restoration theologians. You may disagree with their interpretations, but you will certainly be sharpened.
For a treatise on the Holy Spirit, I read a book by Arthur Pink that was very informative. I'm sure you'll disagree with much of his theology, as he is quite reformed, but I found it very useful in study and provoking in thought..for example, the text of 1Peter 1:1-2 in which we are said to have been chosen by the foreknowledge of God through the sanctifying work of the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ. One aspect of the Spirit's work is to sanctify us? Read that in conjuction with 1 Thessalonians 1 and a vivid picture of what salvation looks like in practice begins to emerge.

I am unclear as to whether or not you are claiming that anti-Trinitarian doctrine is corporate Church of Christ doctrine. I must say that my own church family does not teach this concept, to which I am thankful. I would have a very difficult time placing membership in a family where we have such a fundamental difference of doctrine, as this particular one affects so much of other areas of doctrine, worship, servanthood, and the Christian life (this is, of course, my opinion - you may not think it is so pervasive). Forgive my boldness and the length of this post.

Sincerely,
Luci

.."Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see (with astounded eyes) the kingdom of God. John 3:3

Born "again" is from the Greek:

...Anothen (g509) an'-o-then; from 507; from above; by anal. from the first; by impl. anew: - from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top. (from the opposite direction)

By repudiating baptism, people "reject the counsel of God for themselves" (Lk 7:29-30). They reject the AGAIN birth which is by the SOLE WILL and WORK of God administered only to those who REQUEST IT.

Nicodemus continued to think like modern interpreters:

"Nicodemus saith unto him,
...."How can a man BE BORN when he is OLD?
......"can he enter the SECOND time into his mothers womb, and be born? John 3:4

Nicodemus is thinking of FUTURE TENSE. He is well aware that he HAS BEEN born of FLESH. He was NOT born of water but of AMNIOTIC FLUID and out of FLESH. Sure the once and PRESENT pagans still drink the amniotic fluid in ritual but they KNOW that it is not WATER. Indian mothers still catch the urine from a "holy cow" and baptize their children's face but they KNOW that it isn't water. Jesus used the word FLESH which speaks of our natural birth BY THE WILL of our parents. He also speaks of WATER which everyone knew was associated with REGENERATION AND LIFE and not with the physical birth.

Nicodemus understood that he HAD BEEN born physically and that Jesus was saying that he needed to be born AGAIN in WATER which has no connection to THE BIRTH OF FLESH

Jesus said, a MAN (already existing) MUST BE (future) born AGAIN of water and of spirit. No future Bible text has anyone preaching to those NOT ALREADY BORN OF FLESH. They just SEEM to know that anyone who could HEAR must ALREADY have been born, past tense, of the flesh. But, Jesus says that you MUST (future tense) be BORN AGAIN. Everyone associated that with WATER BAPTISM until Zwingli in about the year 1525 as the father of Baptist theology.

.."Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man (already born of flesh)
...."BE BORN (FUTURE tense)

......of water
..AND
......of the Spirit,

..he cannot ENTER into the kingdom of God. John 3:5

.......That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6

Now, here is the kicker for the BAPTISTS among us. Jesus has His sanity tested by claiming that Jesus said:

....Unless a person HAS BEEN BORN in the FLESH, he must be BORN of Spirit. Sure, IF you are not a LIVING HUMAN BEING you cannot ENTER INTO the kingdom.

It is not difficult to understand Jesus in John 3:5 if we see it explained by Him in the Great Commission, and put into practice beginning on the day of Pentecost. Let's use the Baptist translation

...."Then Peter said unto them, IF YOU HAVE BEEN BORN OF THE FLESH, then
..Repent, and
....be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ
....for (eis, into) the remission of sins, (Baptist = BECAUSE)
...and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

But that skips the ingredient in John 3:5: born of WATER (baptism) and Spirit (given AFTER birth OUT OF WATER. Those who HAD BEEN born of flesh must be born again by WATER of baptism because THAT is the only place Jesus promised remission of sins (new birth) and A holy spirit.

They say that BECAUSE your sins have been remitted, you must be baptized BECAUSE you have ALREADY received the gift of the Holy Spirit

BORN "AGAIN" DOES NOT involve the BIRTH of FLESH which made them ALIVE but BIRTH of Water in which Jesus put the TEST. IF WE ARE ALIVE we must be BORN AGAIN of "water" and "spirit." Paul sees the church cleansed by the washing of WATER through the WORD. The SPIRITS which would rest on Messiah were spirits OF the knowledge of the WORD.

.."But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Titus 3:4
....Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,
......by the WASHING (Loutron, baptism) of REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH),
......and RENEWING (repairing) of the Holy SPIRIT; Titus 3:5

That is what John said in 3:5.

Peter says that in water baptism we REQUEST A clear conscience or A holy spirit. Calvinistic Baptists DEMAND the Spirit as PROOF of their predestination. That is why they HATE WATER with a passion.

This makes us new men of victory because the WORD stored in the Most Holy Place is now opened to EACH person without a human MEDIATING clergy. You could not get SPIRITUALLY CLEAN at the temple without first going THROUGH THE LAVER for a complete immersion in WATER.

We were NOT born of the FLESH by the will of God but the WILL of our parents. That is past: we HAVE ALREADY BEEN BORN OF THE FLESH. Now, our NEW BIRTH is by the will of God expressed by the Great Commission. Those who EXIST and accept Jesus have the POWER TO BECOME SONS but "belief" does not EXERCISE that power. John PROVES that our SECOND BIRTH is not related to our BIRTH of AMNIOTIC FLUID and FLESH:

.."But as many as RECEIVE him, to them gave he power TO BECOME the SONS of God, even to them that BELIEVE on his name: John 1:12
....Which were BORN (regenerated), not of blood, nor of the will of the FLESH, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:13
....children BORN NOT of NATURAL DESCENT, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1:13NIV

Regeneration is not BY water but AT and WITH water and one just has to do too much EXPLAINING AWAY to really have Faith. As John MacArthur said, "It MIGHT be that Acts 2:38 means what it SAYS."

The people were effectively dead and BORN AGAIN into the kingdom or church because they had been

..Buried with him in BAPTISM,
....wherein also ye are RISEN with him (born again)
....through the faith of the OPERATON OF GOD
....who hath raised him from the dead. Colossians 2:12

Paul told the Romans the same thing:

.."God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, LIVE any longer therein? Romans 6:2

....Know ye not, that so many of us as were BAPTIZED into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Romans 6:3

....Therefore we are buried with him by BAPTISM into death: that

....like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father,
....even so we also should walk in NEWNESS of LIFE. Romans 6:4

If you are BORN AGAIN without baptism Paul and all of the baptism passages prove that you are STILL-BORN because you refused to be EMPALED and ENTOMBED beside Jesus and you will not be REBORN. If you DEBATE with the Words of Christ which are Spirit and Life you CANNOT have the Sola Fide of Luther who insisted that this meant Sola Scriptura. When the Word tells you something you DO IT or you DO NOT HAVE faith. Faith, to Luther, must have some OBJECT and to Him that OBJECT was water baptism of believers. He still allowed sprinkling of infants which was like BABY DEDICATION.

Ken Sublett

DAVID : John 16:7 was very specific: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I WILL SEND Him to you.

=========

Why was it to their (OUR) advantage for JESUS to go away? It was because the SAME ONE who DESCENDED also ASCENDED to FILL THE WHOLE UNIVERSE (Eph 4:10) Paul told the Athenians that they didn't have to WORK so hard are religiously because God is never far from us: we can reach out and touch Him. I believe that this means that God lives in a further dimension and not just up in the air.

---Jesus said "I" will send the "fuller" Comforter to you.
....But Jesus said that the FATHER will send the Spirit IN MY NAME.
....The SPIRIT came to Paul as "Jesus of Nazareth."

Therefore, sending the SPIRIT in MY name meant that Jesus as the Christ (God) was the FULLER Comforter.

.."But the COMFORTER, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the FATHER will send in MY NAME, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Jn.14:26

Paul said that the Holy Ghost (Spirit) is to God what our spirit is to us. His conclusion was that "we have the MIND of Christ" long after Jesus moved back into the invisible dimension which Paul said we can touch.

The only way this CANNOT be a contradiction is that:

..I and my Father are ONE. John 10:30 [Not a cozy united family but NUMERICALLY ONE]

But in Chapter 16 Jesus said:

"I" (I, I, I) have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. John 16:12
..Howbeit when he, the Spirit OF TRUTH, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he SHALL NOT speak of himself;
....but whatsoever he shall HEAR, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13

Even if those who call themselves PROPHETS or 13th apostles had the HOLY SPIRIT (not material) living in their bodies (material) it would be UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE for them to claim that the OLDEN BIBLE has been "sifted through philosophy and written to fit the writer's own personal agenda."

Jesus Christ or Jehovah- Saves was the ONE God of the universe. No one can be LIFTED UP or HONORED in the "holy place" claiming to be the PARACLETE and possibly have the MIND or SPIRIT of Christ:

Your attitude should be the kind that was shown us by Jesus Christ, Phil 2:5LIV
..Phil 2:6 who, though he WAS GOD, did not demand and cling to his rights AS GOD,
.....Phil 2:7 but LAID ASIDE his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men.

EVEN if these exhibitionists were ACTUALLY the God of the universe they COULD NOT POSSIBLE strut across the stage claiming to be the MOUTHPIECE of God.

..Phil 2:8 And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to DIE a criminal's death on a cross.[b]
....Phil 2:9 Yet it was BECAUSE of this that God raised him up to the HEIGHTS of heaven and gave him a NAME which is above every other name,
......Phil 2:10 that at the NAME of JESUS every knee shall bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
.......Phil 2:11 and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD, to the glory of GOD the Father.

The Supreme Deity is not glorified by KEY NOTE SPEAKERS or guys LOOKING TO THE HILLS or the "Mountain Gods" as TRAFFICKERS of the free Word. God as Father is GLORIFIED only when we honor the OUTCASTS of the world with a cup of cold water of the WORD.

Thomas identified Jesus as LORD and GOD: Invisible GOD as Father sends Himself as Son to act as LORD or visible Ruler. The urge to CONTACT THE INVISIBLE or be musically "Led into the presence of God" is prohibited as attempting to ASCEND to the invisible world. All pagans who attempted this made themselves into a laughingstock as we would laugh at one who jumped off a building and flapped his "wings."

This is exactly what Jesus in the FLESH repudiated: The Father (thought) was expressed through the Son (Word) through the power of His Breath (Spirit). The role of GOD "SENT" was to be the MOUTH and WORD of God the SENDER. Jesus Christ who WAS GOD sent Himself as WORD. God knew that IF He communicated WORD to the world through a performer we would just rush out and PROCURE us a $90,000.oo "Worship Leader." But God has put His message also on EARTHEN VESSELS to picture ALL of these people as perverse priests of the god of NEW WINESKINS.

God also wrote it on the heart proven by the mass flight of spiritual people when those identified as parasites take the stage.

......For I have not spoken of MYSELF; but the FATHER which sent me, he gave me a COMMANDMENT, what I should say, and what I should SPEAK. Jn.12:49

Paul insisted that the elders authority extended only to "teaching that which has been taught" and "rebuking those who oppose it." No elder has the authority to ADD the burden of spiritual anxiety and EXTORTING (Paul's idea) your money for ANYTHING which is not directed at the WORD.

GOD is seen as Father, Son and Spirit: just one God. The "Father" and "Spirit" were IN Jesus and AMONG the Apostles. GOD didn't send Jesus: rather Father sent the WORD as Son.

The HOLY SPIRIT is the ONLY "another" (fuller) Comforter or Paraclete.

.....JOHN WROTE: "MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST The righteous: 1 Jn.2:1

That is John commenting on John: it cannot be misunderstood.

Jesus promised that HE would send the fuller Comforter. Jesus said that the FATHER would send Him. The Father and Son are one. Therefore the GODHEAD comes to live in the human HEART (mind) by Faith because FULL DEITY does not live in carnal bodies.

Jesus said that the another Comforter (there is only one) would be sent IN MY NAME. "My" name was Jesus. He appeared to Paul as Jesus of Nazareth: no one named THE HOLY SPIRIT every spoke to Paul: it was the Spirit of Christ. John has claimed that the COMFORTER or ADVOCATE (same word) has a NAME: Jesus Christ the righteous.

Jesus claimed ALL AUTHORITY therefore we should baptize in the NAME (singular) of Fathr, Son and Spirit.

..Peter, the rest of the Bible and early church history baptized in the NAME Jesus Christ.

Therefore, Holy is not a first name of a "person" or "people." The name of full DEITY which dwelled in Jesus Christ (Col 2:9) was Jesus prophesied by Zechariah as Joshua or Jehovah- Saves. As BOTH King and Priest HE would sit on ONE THRONE and there would be Harmony or peace BETWEEN "THEM."

I claim a FULLER INDWELLING but an indwelling by FAITH: that the Supreme DEITY of the universes lives in my HEART or MIND by FAITH and that FAITH comes from hearing the WORDS of Christ which He said are SPIRIT and LIFE.

This does not mean that if we HAVE FAITH then this is the MEANS or TICKET for the LITERAL SPIRIT (an oxymoron) to move into our LITERAL body which Paul defined as CARNAL and at war with HIS SPIRIT.

It means that the SPIRIT OF GOD which is the MIND OF CHRIST lives in me to the extent that I imbibe His Spirit which He said was "incarnated" in His Word. Peter says that Christ the TRUE Day Star "arises" in my heart to the extent that I GIVE HEED to the Prophetic Word which is through the SPIRIT OF CHRIST. Give heed is that UNIQUE worship word. Not even the ACT of the Lord's Supper is worship if we are prevented from GIVING HEED to the death of Christ and can examine our own heart or Spirit because of the children who should be sent to the cry room and NOT paid to QUENCH THE SPIRIT.

BODY WORSHIP and the church as Theater for Holy Entertainment is the Lucifer Principle: attempting to defeat the Living Word by defeating His Written Word. Our weapon is not the CARNAL WEAPON which is the same as a LIFELESS INSTRUMENT. Our offensive weapon is the Sword of the Spirit which WE TAKE to ourselves. The MOUTH is defined as a "double edged sword" and the mouth uses its breath (spirit) to send out the WORDS. WE (all of us) have purged our churches of the WORD so that we can MAKE PEACE by singing the effeminate and effeminizing "churchy" type songs not suitable for the battlefield. I guess we have become the USO of God's battle against Satan.

But God gave us a visual aid of the combat of the universe: it is an almost infinite STAR WARS. We CANNOT believe the Bible endorsed by contemperaneous literature and NOT believe that as DISCIPLES of Christ we are ENLISTED to do battle against principalities and powers far beyond the powers of TV combat. Only by training in the Boot Camp of Christ can be NOT be captured by the LUCIFER PRINCIPLE BATTLE now COME TO YOUR CHURCH to defeat the WORD by the Lifeless Instruments or Carnal Weapons Lucifer used to draw away even angels from God's presence.

The WORD saturating OUR spirit is the only way to kept our spirits SWEPT CLEAN by God at baptism from being SWARMED OVER (Infiltrated and diverted) by Gergesenes or demon worshipers. No one ever pretended that JEHOVAH was a Family of God. Jesus is God IMAGED as Jehovah. Jehovah need a descriptor to identify how and when He works in the material world. To us it is JESUS or Jehovah- Saves teaching and showing us the ONLY WAY to battle Lucifer in our tiny burning ember called EARTH.

Ken Sublett

Dear Donnie,
Being I am 41 have lived in Tyler, Elkhart, Winona,
Chilton, Austin, and Arlington, over the years I have gone to different Churches in different towns. Up until 2 years I attended Church of Christ's only.

Each Church of Christ I have ever been to interpreted the verse being "born again of water and the spirit".

1 John 5:7 (KJV)

So there are three witnesses in Heaven:
the Father,
the Word and
the Holy Ghost,

and these three are one.

Dear David,

Thank you very much for your response. It’s OK if only the Lord knows (and not the readers) about the church you are a member of now … or have that spiritual connection with. My overall impression is that you still attend assemblies of the church of Christ (and not limited to it), as well as denominational churches.

“[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: [2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. [3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:1-7, KJV)

I’ll try to briefly explain the Nicodemus issue in the above passage. Factors that need to be considered are: (1) the actual experience of “being born again” [and yet again perhaps?] on the part of Nicodemus—the only other times this ruler’s name was mentioned are found in John 7:50 and John 19:39, being referred to the one who “came to Jesus by night”; (2) the kingdom of God in reference to the establishment of the church as prophesied [Acts 1:3]. We cannot simply assume that this ruler went through both water baptism and baptism of the Holy Ghost. The Bible doesn’t say.

Paul wrote about the preaching of the gospel of Christ as being “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek” (Romans 1:16, KJV)—and the book of Acts explains this chronology. Baptism of the Holy Ghost, manifesting the power to do miraculous things, was unique in that it was received by certain people and that it occurred PRIOR to the required water baptism (by immersion) for the purpose of remitting sins in Acts 2:38; 3:19, and again in Acts 10.

The new birth in the passage (John 3:1-7) should not be taken out of context. The physical birth is clearly illustrated and is differentiated from “being born again”—ONE new birth ONLY. Nothing is said about (1) being “born again of water” and (2) being “born again of the Spirit”—if both were to be considered separate requirements [one after another] in order to enter the kingdom of God. It is obvious that the contrast is made in verse 6: (1) ONLY ONE physical birth [“that which is born of the flesh is flesh”] and (2) ONLY ONE spiritual birth [“that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”]. Notice that in the second instance, “being born of water” is not mentioned again as it is implied that being “born of water” [which is baptism by immersion] results in the spiritual birth. Notice further that even if there were to be another baptism (of the Holy Spirit), it would not qualify as being the type of baptism of the Holy Ghost received by certain people as described in the book of Acts. From a chronological standpoint, Acts explains that baptism of the Holy Ghost occurred prior to water baptism. I would not dare change the order of events in John 3 simply to prove that there was baptism of the Holy Ghost at all.

Other passages in the New Testament prove that there is only one baptism necessary to gain salvation:

Romans 6: “[3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life” (KJV). This clearly states the new birth in baptism by immersion.

I Peter 3: “[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (KJV). Good conscience is rewarding after baptism.

Acts 2: “[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 3: “[19] Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.” (KJV)

Ephesians 4: “[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all” (KJV). ONE BAPTISM!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie

In an earlier "much earlier" post I stated I attended a non-denominational church, although its origins are of the restoration movement.

However, the advancement of the Kingdom of God is certainly not limited to the restoration movement Church's.

Nor or members of the body of Christ who happen to attend a Baptist Church or other non-denominational
Church's any less a Christian than those that attend
Church of Christs.

Matter of fact most of the Christian folks I have discussions with do not identify themsleves as Baptist, or this or that denomination, but Christians only.

I am a member of the body of Christ, I am saved by Christ's grace alone. By his atonement alone, by his righteousness alone, and will only attend a Church that teaches this.

My confidence is in the Lord Jesus Christ alone and Him crucified and raised from the dead.
My confidence is not and will never be because of the place I attend to worship God.

Most of the folks I have met who have confidence in their Church are
Catholic's, Church of Christ, Mormon, Jehovahs Witnesses and a few Charismatics seem to have an undue reliance on their Church, usually Word of Faith people
which is based on a false view of Christ.

My only confidence is in the Lord.
Jonah 2:9 states: salvation is from the LORD.

Not a church.

I think we have a lot in common. I never question the sincerity of any one who belongs to any religious group. The Muslims and the Buddhists and others are just as sincere as those who profess to be Christians.

I really just wanted to know certain specifics from you for the purpose of having a better understanding of where you’re coming from so that our study and discussion of things you brought up would be more fruitful. I’m not here to condemn. That’s the Lord’s task.

You may not have noticed that I made mention of that (about your background) in one little paragraph and concentrated more on the subject that I thought would be of interest to you. You did not respond to the main portion of my preceding post.

Pardon me for saying that I’m still confused as to your purpose in stating: [[[Each Church of Christ I have ever been to interpreted the verse being "born again of water and the spirit".]]]

Would you please comment on the response I made in the preceding post to your statement regarding the interpretation of being “born again of water and the spirit”? What do think of the passages I quoted regarding water baptism by immersion and regarding “ONE BAPTISM”?

I couldn't and DIDN'T say it better. I'll bet you learned to read somewhere. In Hohenwald, grammar was my mother's mother.

....Except a man be born of water AND of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God,

cannot gramatically be TWO births.

Some church "father" says that DEMONS love desolate and dry places. I love water: Jesus was God Incarnate in a body composed of 75 to 80% water. He created the earth in water and standing out of water. The earth (not the globe but the fruitful place) was BORN out of water by the Word Who is Spirit Who created all things. God said that I didn't have any one besides Me.

Thanks, Ken

“[3] … Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. [4] How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? [5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.” (John 3:3-7, KJV)

Those who do not believe that water baptism by immersion in the only ONE BAPTISM (Ephesians 4:5) necessary to receiving salvation—the new birth—would want to alter the passage in John to mean the following:

(1) The first birth is obviously physical birth—as clearly illustrated.
(2) Ye must be born again—of water—the first new birth.
(3) Ye must be born yet again—of the Spirit (baptism of the Holy Ghost)—the second new birth.

According to those who do not understand the new birth as the spiritual birth, these verses should now state:

“[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of water is of water; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again and again.”

I think what they are saying is being born of water is being born,
Being born of the Spirit is to be born again.

Titus 3:5-6 states:

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us,

"by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior."

The point is "what is regeneration", being immersed in water or being immersed in the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ.

Peter marveled at the conversion of the Gentiles, and remembered what the Lord had said.

Acts 11:16 "John immersed with water, but you will be
immersed with the Holy Spirit".

He also expounded: in Acts 15: 8 About the conversion of the gentiles.

"God who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did us.
9 " He made no distiction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were Included IN CHRIST when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is what marks us for redemption when Christ returns.

Romans 10:8-10 Is another example of the conversion of the heart.

Of course internal conversion is ALWAYS accompanied by external acts. But, the two shouldn't be confused.

Anybody, can do the outward acts that give the appearance of the change of heart, this is true.


Only God can change the heart, by faith, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.

David,

I’m sorry that I’m really having a difficult time following your thoughts. Outside of the great scriptures you quoted, I decided to compile the statements (your own words) from the preceding post. Here are David’s words that I did “copy and paste”; Donnie’s comments are in “[…]”:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(1) I think what they are saying is being born of water is being born, Being born of the Spirit is to be born again. [DC: Who are “they” in “they are saying…”?]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(2) The point is "what is regeneration", being immersed in water or being immersed in the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ. [DC: “What is regeneration” is the question, true? That there’s only ONE correct choice, either: (a) water baptism by immersion or (b) baptism in the Holy Spirit. Do I understand you correctly?]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(3) Peter marveled at the conversion of the Gentiles, and remembered what the Lord had said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(4) The Holy Spirit is what marks us for redemption when Christ returns.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(5) Romans 10:8-10 Is another example of the conversion of the heart. Of course internal conversion is ALWAYS accompanied by external acts. But, the two shouldn't be confused. Anybody, can do the outward acts that give the appearance of the change of heart, this is true. Only God can change the heart, by faith, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
David, to this day I still don’t know which direction our discussion is going. Protestants generally have different views regarding the subject of the Holy Spirit. The Charismatic and Pentecostal groups definitely have a different view on the subject. The Holy Scripture, without the influence of the Catholic doctrine of the Trinity (and seconded by Protestantism), speaks differently.

For now, I’m going to assume that you’re a strong believer in (1) the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a separate entity from (2) water baptism by immersion—which, I know, the New Testament speaks of as a condition or requirement to be followed in order that a prospective believer can have his sins forgiven.

I’m taking your 1st statement to mean: (1) that “being born of water” is the same as “being born of the flesh”—meaning that “being born of water” is physical birth and (2) that baptism in the Holy Ghost is the new birth. Please read and re-read John 3:5-6. “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” Contrary to what you seem to imply, it is clear to me that the requirement to entering the kingdom of God certainly does NOT include BOTH physical birth and spiritual birth. Rather it is only one, inseparable entity—i.e., being “born of water and of the Spirit” is the new spiritual birth.

Titus 3:5-6 (KJV): “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour…” There is no mention of “baptism in the Holy Ghost” in the passage. Nor does it say anything about the Holy Ghost “person in the Trinity” [a doctrine]. The Holy Spirit is the holy Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ. But the passage from Titus clearly suggests the same thing as in John 3 that being born “of water and of the Spirit” is one, inseparable entity—ONLY ONE NEW BIRTH. When an individual goes through the entire conversion process including water baptism, there is the renewing of the Spirit of God associated with it—and that is the complete spiritual birth.

I agree with you regarding the influence of the Holy Ghost upon the Gentiles. But I believe that you are not taking into consideration the chronology of events described in the book of Acts. Here are the passages you quoted:

“[1] And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God…. [15] And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. [16] Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.” (Acts 11, KJV)

“[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. [8] And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; [9] And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.” (Acts 15, KJV)

I think we need to consider this background: that the good news of salvation was to spread to the entire world—(1) to the Jews first and (2) to the Gentiles also. There is no question that the Jews in that gathering on the day of Pentecost were “baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” There is also no question that later in Acts, as in the scriptures you quoted, the Gentiles [also] in that particular scene or scenes were “baptized with the Holy Ghost” [“the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning” on the day of Pentecost]. We must consider here the extraordinary events that took place during those particular times because of the influence of the Holy Ghost. I am reminded of Genesis 1:2 where it says: “And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” I’d say extraordinary or supernatural because of the uniqueness in the way the Spirit of God manifested the Creator’s power. This means that we are not to expect the same events to recur—at least the Bible has no references to similar supernatural events reoccurring. In the same sense, the baptism in the Holy Ghost was experienced by certain groups of people during particular times for a purpose that would lead people to Christ. Nowhere else in the New Testament does it indicate that baptism in the Holy Spirit is THE OTHER BAPTISM required in conversion—and that’s not to say that God’s Spirit does not dwell in the true believer in Christ.

This passage stating there is only ONE BAPTISM must not be rejected: “[4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Ephesians 4, KJV).

It is certainly not my intent to be hard to understand, and think there really isn't much more for me to say. I'll will make one last effort to make clear the work of the Holy Spirit.
However, if the problem is that we just disagree about the Holy Spirit, there is no common ground on that subject.
I believe the Holy Spirit is active in the world today.

Now to scripture: Christ's words.
John 16: 13-14
13 "However when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that He shall speak; and He will show you things to come.
14 He shall glorify Me, for He shall recieve Mine, and shall show it unto you."
Christ Himself called Him a person. He calls Him He.
1 John 5:7
" For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one"
Scripture testifies to the Spirit. And says He is one with the Father and the Word(Christ).

Ephesians 1: 13-14 states:
13" IN Christ ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation, in Whom after ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
14 "which is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession unto the praise of His glory."
SEALED= sphragidzw= "stamped with a seal" or "stamped for approval". It is a passive tense, meaning we dont do the sealing by our actions, but He does the sealing when we believe.

1 Corinthians 12:13
13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, whether we are bond or free, and have been all made to drink into the one Spirit."
This baptizing is done by the one Spirit, into one body. When we believe on Christ for salvation.

1 Corinthians 6: 19-20
19 "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you and which ye have from God, and that ye are not your own?"
20 "For ye are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and and in your spirit, which are God's."
Could it be any clearer that the believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.

Here Ananias lies to the Holy Spirit:
Acts 5: 3-4
3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
4" While it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God."
Can he be any clearer that to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God.

Romans 8: 15-16
15 "For ye have not recieved the spirit of bondage again to fear, but ye have recieved the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba! Father!."
16" The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit that we are the children of God."
If you are born again of the Spirit, the Spirit bears witness that we are children of God.

Titus 3:5 Bears witness we are regenerated through the Holy Spirit.
5 "Not by works of righteousness which WE have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"

A few attributed of the Spirit.
1) He speaks,
2) He intercedes,
3) He testifies,
4) He appoints,
5) He can be lied to,
6) He can be grieved. With dilegent study each of these can be found in scripture.

There is really nothing else for me to say, you either believe the scripture about the Holy Spirit,
His attributes, and His testimony or you create your own doctrine about Him.
He is sent to testify of Christ and not of Himself. To regenerate and indwell the believer.
To bear witness to us.
To empower us to holy living.

This has nothing to do with "Protestant thought", or
Campbell, Calvin, Wesley, Luther, the reformation or restoration movement. This is from the Bible preserved for any man to dilgently study.

David: Here Ananias lies to the Holy Spirit: Acts 5: 3-4

3 But Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HOLY GHOST and to keep back part of the price of the land?"
...4" While it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto GOD."
....Can he be any clearer that to lie to the Holy Spirit is to lie to God.

Ken: Can it be any clearer than things equal to the same things are equal to each other? God is pure or Holy (Wholly) Spirit. Paul speaks of the Spirit OF God. If the Spirit is another "person" (a blasphemy) then we have TWO spirits. And if Jesus has His own spirit then we have four "persons." and how can the "spirit person" operate without HIS OWN spirit. That makes SIX persons and so even trinitarians reasoned.

To lie to the SPIRIT is to Lie to GOD: not twins. God did not IMAGE Himself as SON. Therefore, the spirit OF God was lied to.
-----------------------------------------------

Tom: Now to scripture: Christ's words.

John 16: 13-14
..13 "However when He, the Spirit OF Truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth; for He shall not speak from Himself, but whatsoever He shall hear, that He shall speak; and He will show you things to come.
.....14 He shall glorify Me, for He shall recieve Mine, and shall show it unto you."
...Christ Himself called Him a person. He calls Him He.

Ken: No, He did not call him a person: The Spirit of Truth is the spirit OF something. The spirit OF anger is NOT a person but we often personify our anger by blaming HIM. All emotions were personified and even worshipped. We worship GRACE and FAITH just like the Greek pagans.

He glorifies JESUS CHRIST, and RECEIVES the words from CHRIST and shows it to the APOSTLES because in John 14 the ANOTHER comforter is fully explained when Jesus said "I" (Say, "I" 100 times) will come to you. He "appeared to Paul" and called Himself "Jesus of Nazareth." No one ever honors the "spirit" as a person not even the father and son. Jesus promised to appear to Paul further. Therefore, the Spirit which forbad Paul was the Spirit OF Christ. "MY"spirit is not my twin.

The FATHER was within the SON even as was the SPIRIT. Therefore, the SPIRIT has no INFORMATION of His own. The lust for displacing Jesus is that the "spirit" will tell us that we DON'T HAVE TO OBEY the words of Christ in the Bible: there is never any other motive. People hate Word and therefore hate Water.

There is NO HOPE for a polytheist: that is why polytheism arrived on the same DIVERTED TRAIN with musical worship teams and STAFF INFECTION. Tom, you simply HAVE NO Biblical or historical support for a view claimed to have arrived full force through Lucado and Shelly. However, the 'FATHER' is H. Leo Boles (c. 1942) and the G.A. Why is it that you and yours simply HAVE no one in history who ever saw the Godhead as there separated "persons." The word was PERSONAE which does not mean person.
------------

Tom: 1 John 5:7
..." For there are three that bear record in Heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost and these three are one"
....Scripture testifies to the Spirit. And says He is one with the Father and the Word (Christ).

Ken: God is invisible and incomprehensible. Christ sitting on the one throne LAID ASIDE His rights as God and TOOK ON the form of a man. The message is NOT God, Jesus, and holy spirit PERSON. God manifests Himself as FATHER, SON AND SPIRIT. "They" have one Name: Jehovah- Saves.

Father is not a PERSON but a CHARACTERISTIC. Son is not a PERSON but is in RELATIONSHIP only to a FATHER. Jesus as SON spoke what He heard from the FATHER within. Spirit is not a PERSON but the POWER of the Word. The Spirit of Christ speaks the Mind of Christ ONLY. Paul made it perfectly clear to me and the church Fathers in 1 Cor 2: The Holy Spirit is to God what my spirit is to me. The MIND of Christ is defined as the Holy Spirit. The concept of the "Spirit" DOES NOT HAVE "HIS" own "spirit" but the THOUGHT speaks the WORD by the use of His BREATH (SPIRIT).

1 John 5:7 is a "brother" to 5:5 which says:
....."Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that JESUS is the Son of God? 1 John 5:5

The WORD WAS God but not the SON of God. Jesus is the Son and the Arm and the Hand and the Manna and the Pillar because the invisible "FATHER" concept works throuth SONS.

.."This is he that came by WATER and BLOOD, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that BEARETH witness, because the Spirit "IS TRUTH." 1 John 5:6

Can ANYTHING be clearer. Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE. The spirit is the TRUTH of Christ because the SPIRIT does not speak ON HIS OWN. Therefore, RUN from anyone who claims that they have received NEW GLASSES to get a NEW VISION for the church. Their spirit is "An UNHOLY SPIRIT of evil."

.."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the SPIRIT, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 1 John 5:8

Jesus DID NOT say that SPIRIT was a person: he clearly said that spirit IS TRUTH.

The SPIRIT is one of the symbolic complex natures of God in HEAVEN. Jesus said, "My WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE." Therefore, the three witnesses for the believer are Word (Spirit), Water and Blood. These AGREE in one.

Jesus the ALREADY born man of flesh and amniotic fluid has John say that that He came by WATER AND BLOOD. This is the washing of baptism and his crucifixion. WATER was always required before the Priest could go into the Holy place. We must be "washed by water and spirit" in the AGAIN sense. Paul defines this as "Washing of water by the WORD" which is SPIRIT which IS TRUTH. That is why Jesus and Paul and Peter and church fathers OUTLAWED the concept of PREACHING because the SPIRIT in the WORD gets filtered out unless the elders "teach the Word as it has been taught."

"Holy Spirit" defines DEITY or it defines OUR spirits made holy or it IS TRUTH. Holy Spirit and WATER do not agree in form: Blood agrees with WORD but not with HOLY SPIRIT "person." In baptism we ACCEPT THE COUNSEL OF GOD FOR OUR LIVES, are baptized in water to gain the power of the EARTH- SHED blood. SPIRIT speaks of TRUTH because the Spirit IS TRUTH expressed in WORDS. "A" holy spirit or "mind of Christ" allows us to READ the word but you CANNOT get it by PURCHASE: it has already been bought with the Blood of Christ: pay for it at your peril. They were called PARASITES because they did NOTHING for their pay.

God is "father, son, spirit." Godhead is not father, Jesus, and little brother "holy spirit" of the new TRITHEISM which has no historical support.

Tom, it does no good to toss out all of those passages unless you are BAPTIZED in order to the forgiveness of sins and the GIFT of "A" holy spirit or mind which is the ONLY place God as PURE SPIRIT is going to meet you. The WORD was under the MERCY SEAT and only in the Throne room. To get into the holy place as "school" and fellowship you must be washed in the BLOOD of Jesus. This was in the Laver where priest and sacrifice was FULLY WASHED. If you believe that your faith substitutes for the Word, Water and Blood then I urge you to quite depending on Zwingli (c 1625) and leap all of the way back to the beginning. The name of the Living Word as SPIRIT OF TRUTH is Jesus Who claimed to have the power to put SPIRIT and LIFE into HIS words.

Ken Sublett

Posted 8/23/03

Sorry, I got you mixed up with Tom:

Richard: 1 Corinthians 12:13

13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we are Jews or Gentiles, whether we are bond or free, and have been all made to drink into the one Spirit."

This baptizing is done by the one Spirit, into one body. When we believe on Christ for salvation.

Ken: We DO NOT drink THE Holy Spirit as a person. The "SPIRIT" or the mental disposition is the spirit OF ONENESS or unity.

12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.

12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

I cannot detect a SINGLE spiritual gift in Corinth: Paul often uses Irony. The spirit of ONENESS is available only IN Christ. The people had the choice of claiming a GIFT but because it would produce UNITY or ONENESS Paul called them "still carnal."

"Spirit" in the Greek world never speaks of a living "person." Therefore, if the spirit of Christ is a "person" then CHRIST is still dead.

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Richard: 1 Corinthians 6: 19-20

19 "What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you and which ye have from God, and that ye are not your own?"
.....20 "For ye are bought with a price. Therefore glorify God in your body and and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are God's."

Could it be any clearer that the believer has the Holy Spirit dwelling in him.


Ken: could it be any clearer that the temple is the temple of A holy spirit (ghosts are dead). Peter promised A holy spirit or A clear conscience. God put a spirit into all mankind. This gives us all the power to hear the WORDS of God. However, when we sin we have AN UNHOLY spirit. Jesus Christ promises to REGENERATE that spirit ONLY at the time and place of water baptism.

God put a spirit into Adam and therefore to all humankind. The breath is not oxygen but is defined by the word "inspiration." The LIVING WORD breathed the breath (holy spirit) into Adam because as WORD He did all of the creating which was done. Adam under the TEACHING of Eve lost his HOLY spirit when he sinned. This allowed those who did not commit Adam's sin to have FREE WILL so that their own sins could make their SPIRIT unholy. Being "outside" the garden free will went wild as it is in the MODERN STYLE WORSHIP theaters for "holy" entertainment: andy entertainment claiming to speak for God is UNHOLY.

DAVID MAKES IT CLEAR by SEVERAL kinds of "holy spirits" or mental dispositions:

.Hide thy face from my sins, and BLOT out all mine iniquities. Psa 51:9
..Create in me a CLEAN HEART, O God; and renew a RIGHT spirit within me. Psa 51:10
..Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy HOLY SPIRIT from me. Psa 51:11
.Restore unto me the JOY of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy FREE spirit. Psa 51:12
..Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee. Psa 51:13

David never claimed to be GOD INCARNATED which is the meaning of the Shellyites.

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Richard: A few attributed of the Spirit.

1) He speaks,

2) He intercedes,

3) He testifies,

4) He appoints,

5) He can be lied to,

6) He can be grieved. With diligent study each of these can be found in scripture.

Ken: Replace the ONE NAME of the Spirit for "He" and you have it, Richard. Jesus SPEAKS and Jesus is the ONE AND ONLY MEDIATOR OR INTERCESSOR. If the spirit as a separated PERSON is the Intercessor then GOD LIED when He promised to send His HAND or ARM to be the intercessor. Hand and "spirit" are parts of the nature of a BODY. Jesus Christ is the HEAD and therefore He is the SPIRIT.

....For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus;1Ti.2:5

....MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous: 1Jn.2:1

Son mediates with the "Father" because FULL DEITY dwells within Him. I often speak to myself: that is what ALL of the church fathers mean when they speak of the TRINITY but NEVER separated.

Ken Sublett

..If a man sins against a man, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father; for it was the will of the LORD to slay them. 1 Samuel 2:25

..Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. Isa 59:15

..And he saw that there was NO MAN, and wondered that there was no INTERCESSOR: therefore his ARM brought SALVATION unto him; and his RIGHTEOUSNESS, it sustained him. Is.59:16

The ARM of God brought RIGHTEOUSNESS and SALVATION. Therefore, Peter could say that righteousness is through GOD and His Savior. Isaiah says that the SAVIOR is God's RIGHT ARM. God and His ARM does not make TWO Gods.

......For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;
.....that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2Co.5:21
....SIMON Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ,
....to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the
....RIGHTEOUSNESS of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2Pe.1:1

Only God can mediate between Man and God and NO presumptuous performer need apply:

..So shall they fear the NAME of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood,
-----the SPIRIT of the Lord (the FINGER of God) shall lift up a standard against him. Isa 59:19
-----And the REDEEMER (the ARM of God) shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. Isa 59:20

God became MAN also that He might be seen as capable of MEDIATING. There is only ONE Mediator. Therefore, if the SPIRIT of God is separated from Christ then we have TWO Mediators. But everyone agrees:

....For there is one God, and ONE MEDIATOR between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;1Ti.2:5

....MY little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, JESUS CHRIST the righteous: 1Jn.2:1

Only God can forgive sins; Jesus forgave sins; therefore, Jesus is the MEDIATOR who bridges the gap between the visible (where we live) and the invisible, infinite realm of God.

Jesus as the Christ claimed to be God in the flesh. He claimed that the Father was within and among the Apostles. "See me and you see the Father." If the SPIRIT of God or the SPIRIT of Christ is another PERSON then both Father and Son do not possess SPIRIT except as IN a separated "person." We ALL have spirit and Only God can make A tainted spirit into A holy spirit. Peter continues to show that as LORD (Jehovah) is the ONLY God (Elohim). Using Greek words Thomas was correct: Jesus images both LORD (Jehovah- Saves) and GOD is Theos (used of "generic" gods) and Kurios.

...Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written,
..Thou shalt worship
......THE LORD THY GOD,
..and him (not them) only shalt thou serve. Mt.4:10

..Grace and peace be multiplied unto you THROUGH the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 2 Pet 1:2

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and PRECIOUS PROMISES: that by these
.....ye might be PARTAKERS of the DIVINE NATURE, [Regeneration]
having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 1 Pet 1:4

Only the Lord our God Who IS SPIRIT can give us A holy spirit so that we can commune with Him again. If you ESCAPE the old carnal nature and REPUDIATE the Words of Christ you commit an UNFORGIVABLE SIN (Heb 6) and THERE IS NOTHING MORE GOD WILL DO FOR YOU. You just listen to the CONTENT of the sermon and don't get hypnotized by the MUSIC which puts your rational (spiritual) nature to sleep and you will SEE that in the last days MANY cannot bring themselves to just "teach the Word as it has been taught." Report back.

There are gods many and lords many. Because Satan is the great counterfeiter it is possible-yea probable-that MOST-yea all of those who try to, like David, make themselves vile to attract God have NEVER HEARD the Gospel of the TRUE Lord and God. If they had not been TOTALLY DECEIVED they COULD NOT pay a performer $90,000.oo of HARD WON income to be the MUSICAL MEDIATOR between man and MAN. My Jesus does not judge by SIGHT or SOUND: worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit MADE HOLY so that God seeks you ONLY THERE. Don't look for MY Jesus playing the buffoon on the stage

Ken

To David K:

I agree with you that there is no question at all that the subject of the Holy Spirit must be studied diligently. I have mentioned Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc., for the purpose of pinpointing the specific differences between us because of the BREADTH OF THE SUBJECT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. These major “Christian” groups have varying interpretations of certain segments of the subject. I just find it necessary, therefore, to consider, first of all, to agree upon whether the entire subject should be discussed or only certain specifics should be covered. Otherwise, discussion can be endless, as what seems to be the case now. There are parts that we agree on, some of which you keep bringing up as if they were the points of controversy—when they are not.

I realize that you, as much as I do, want the Holy Scripture alone as the basis for our knowledge on the subject. However, have you checked it out to see if the Trinity creed or concept is scriptural? The council of Nicaea (c.325) was only the first of several “world councils” in early [Catholic] Church history. Creed followed creed, including the use of saints’ images and icons in religious devotions, the veneration of images, the intercession of saints, and many others. The Roman Catholic Church decided that based on the father and son relationship, there needed to be a “mother”—and came up with the Virgin Mary as the “Mother of God.” The initial Nicene Creed simply stated: “We believe in the Holy Spirit,” but was later modified by the Council of Constantinople (c.381) to read: “We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who spoke through the prophets.” Obviously, the word “trinity” is not mentioned in the scriptures. Jesus did not teach it. Paul did not preach it. The doctrine became official some 300 years after the last book in the Bible was written. It became official upon one person’s decision—it wasn’t Christ. It was Constantine, a Roman emperor in the midst of resolving a conflict. And how much did he know about the subject or the scriptures? The Protestants have seconded the motion. The Charismatic and Pentecostal groups have SUPERSIZED the concept and have rejected that “but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease” (I Corinthians 13:8) and whose ministers and televangelists would attempt to demonstrate or replicate the apostolic miracles and wonders and be given “utterance.”

David, I’m still struggling from determining the kind of message or messages you’re attempting to deliver. Based on the conglomerate ideas you’ve brought up and my responses that you’ve either dismissed or ignored, I’ve come to the conclusion that these are the things you support, adhere to and believe—and this will be your LAST CHANCE TO CORRECT whatever misunderstandings I have regarding …

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YOUR [DAVID’S] INTERPRETATIONS as follows:
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--- There are two baptisms: (1) water baptism and (2) baptism with the Holy Spirit.
--- Water baptism is not essential but baptism with the Holy Spirit makes it valid.
--- The Holy Spirit as a “Helper” qualifies “personhood.”
--- The Holy Spirit as a “Comforter” qualifies “personhood.”
--- “I will send Him to you” qualifies “personhood” because “Him” is used.
--- “I will send Him to you” qualifies “personhood” because “Him” is capitalized.
--- “Direct influence of the Spirit” provides a “whisper” to be heard or listened to.
--- Being “born of water” is separate and contrasted from being “born of the Spirit.”
--- Being “born of water” is to be interpreted as being “born in the flesh.”
--- Being “born of water” is to be interpreted as “that which is flesh is flesh.”
--- It is not “funny” [ha-ha] to say be “born in the flesh” first to enter into the kingdom.
--- Being “born again” refers to being “born of the Spirit” ONLY.
--- The new spiritual birth has nothing to do with water baptism by immersion.
--- The new spiritual birth has something to do with ONLY being “born of the Spirit.”
--- Being “born of the Spirit” is by baptism with the Holy Ghost.
--- Being “born of water and of the Spirit” is NOT one entity or event—spiritual rebirth.
--- Dismiss “ONE BAPTISM” in Eph. 4:5—there are water and Holy Spirit baptisms.
--- It is logical to say: Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ and Spirit of the Holy Spirit.
--- The “gift” of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 is the “Holy Spirit” of the Holy Spirit.
--- “These three are one” is NOT proof of “unity” but of the Spirit as the 3rd person.
--- Relationship between the Father and the Son necessitates a 3rd person in it.
--- Ignore that only certain Jews on the day of Pentecost received
--- --- the baptism of the Holy Spirit for a purpose…
--- Ignore that only certain of the Gentiles after Pentecost also received
--- --- the baptism of the Holy Spirit for a purpose…
--- So that believers today can and should be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
--- Being immersed in water is not “regeneration.”
--- Indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the SAME as “immersion in the Holy Spirit.”
--- Being “immersed [baptism] in the Holy Spirit” is “regeneration.”
--- Immersion by water is an outward act giving the appearance of change of heart.
--- “Only God can change the heart, by faith, through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit.”
--- The Holy Spirit in “PERSON” is active in the “world” today.
--- Christ Himself called Him (the Holy Spirit) a person.
--- “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (I Cor. 12:13) means …
--- --- “This baptizing is done by the one Spirit, into one body.
--- --- When we believe on Christ for salvation.”

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David,

I do not have the “spirit” nor the energy and time to REPEAT myself and rebut every statement of yours as listed above. I know you’re very familiar with the many passages that mention the “Holy Ghost” or the “Holy Spirit.” But I really would like for you to be familiar with all the other words and phrases that also identify the Holy Spirit as:

[] --- The Spirit of the Lord
[] --- The Spirit of God
[] --- The Spirit of Christ
[] --- The Spirit of Truth (synonym: the Spirit of Christ [the truth])

Of the 60 or so passages [quoting KJV] in which the “Spirit” or “spirit” is listed, please pay much attention to the little preposition “of”—this two-character word is very significant in that it signifies “possession” by SOMEONE or it signifies SOMETHING that belongs to SOMEONE [in this case: the Lord or God or Christ]. This means that “something” cannot be “someone” or vice versa.

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Judges 3:10—“And the Spirit of the LORD came upon him … the LORD delivered”
Judges 6:34—“But the Spirit of the LORD came upon Gideon…”
Judges 11:29—“Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah….”
Judges 13:25—“And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp
Judges 14:6; Judges 14:19; Judges 15:14;
I Samuel 10:6—“And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee”
II Samuel 23:2; I Kings 18:12; I Kings 22:24; II Kings 2:16; II Chronicles 20:14;
Isaiah 11:2—“And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom”
Isaiah 40:7; Isaiah 40:13; Isaiah 59:19; Isaiah 61:1; Isaiah 63:14;
Ezekiel 11:5; Ezekiel 37:1; Micah 2:7; Micah 3:8;
Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; Acts 8:39; II Corinthians 3:17; II Corinthians 3:18;
Gen. 1:2—“And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.”
Genesis 41:38—“Can we find … a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”
Exodus 31:3—“And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom…”
Exodus 35:31; Numbers 24:2; I Samuel 10:10; I Samuel 11:6;
I Samuel 19:20; I Samuel 19:23; II Chronicles 15:1;
II Chronicles 24:20—“… the Spirit of God came upon Zechariah the son of…’
Job 27:3—“All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils”
Job 33:4; Ezekiel 11:24; Matthew 3:16; Matthew 12:28; Romans 8:9;
Romans 8:14—“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”
Romans 15:19; I Corinthians 2:11; I Corinthians 2:14;
I Corinthians 3:16—“Know ye not that … and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?”
I Corinthians 6:11—“in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
I Corinthians 7:40; I Corinthians 12:3;
Ephesians 4:30—“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed….”
I John 4:2—“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth…”
Romans 8:9—“Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
I Peter 1:11—“Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which…”
John 14:17—“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive”
John 15:26—“… the Comforter … even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth …”
John 16:13—“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide…”
I John 4:6—“Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.”
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Let’s look at the identification of the “Spirit” in various forms. Please note the word “spirit” being capitalized or not capitalized in the passages above. Note that “Holy Spirit” (as is) is referenced in Luke 11:13 [“how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him”].

But note that “holy Spirit” (as is) is referenced in Psalm 51:11 [“take not thy holy spirit from me”]; Isaiah 63:10 [“But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit”]; Isaiah 63:11 [“where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?”]; Ephesians 1:13 [“ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”]; Ephesians 4:30 [“grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby”]; I Thess. 4:8 [“but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit”].
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Now, let us examine the usage of the word “who” or “whom” versus “which” in the following passages from the KJV—these words [WHO, WHOM, WHICH] are capitalized in the following verses only for emphasis:

John 14:26—“But the Comforter, WHICH is the Holy Ghost, WHOM the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.” [Explained later]

Acts 5:32—“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, WHOM God hath given to them that obey him.” (Explained later)

John 7:39—“(But this spake he of the Spirit, WHICH they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Romans 5:5—“And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost WHICH is given unto us.”

I Corinthians 2:12—“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”

I Corinthians 6:19—“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

II Corinthians 11:4—“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, WHICH ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”

Ephesians 1:13—“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] WHICH is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 6:17—“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, WHICH is the word of God”

II Timothy 1:14—“That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost WHICH dwelleth in us.”

I John 3:24—“And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit WHICH he hath given us.”
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In the passages that you quoted, John 16:13-14, I believe that the Comforter that Christ (while still in physical form) was to send is the Spirit of truth or the Spirit of Christ or Christ no longer in the flesh, while maintaining the gender form of “he” or “him.” But we really need to look at the other chapters before and after: John chapters 14, 15, 16 and 17. It is significant to notice the one-on-one relationship between the Father and the Son and the forms of communication between them.

CHAPTER 14: Remember that beforehand Jesus said, “[6] I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me… [11] Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me… [16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU.” (John 14, KJV)

CHAPTER 15: “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.” (John 15:26-27)

CHAPTER 16: “[13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father… [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
” (John 16, KJV)

CHAPTER 17: “[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. [21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one.”

Please, please notice when Christ said: “As thou, Father art in me, and I in thee … that they may be one, even as we are one.” (John 17:21-22) The same is rendered in John 10:30—“I and my Father are one.” Even though gender identification is not an issue here since it is already obvious, the significant point is the unity between the Father and the Son. The all-important passage used to prove the Trinity concept is John 5:7—“ For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

To ensure that the verse is not taken out of context, let’s quote the other verses: “[6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.” (I John 5, KJV)

“These three are one” simply expresses unity—not “personhood” nor proof that the Holy Ghost is the third “person”—because it illustrates “oneness” or unity just as when Christ said, “I and my Father are one.” It is beyond question that the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit is “the Spirit of God” or “the Spirit of the Lord” or “the Spirit of Christ [the truth]”—and that’s the kind of “spirit” that dwells in the believer. Besides, “THE SPIRIT IS TRUTH” (verse 6). Remember the two-character word OF! OF! OF!
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Donnie

Donnie and Ken,
The only purpose I had was to illuminate the work of
the Holy Spirit in the world today. Nothing else.
Not to debate with you or anybody about water baptism.

Additonally to try and get it across that Christianity isnt resricted to only the Church of Christ, which is a denomination whether you admit it or not.

My only other objective was to relay that salvation was bought with a great price, by Jesus Christ, and salvation is bought by Him alone. Salvation is through faith in His FINISHED work.

Paul said he didnt come to baptize but to preach the
gospel. Lest the Cross be emptied of its power.
When I examine my salvation I focus on the Cross, nothing else. His sacrifice was perfect because He is perfect. He paid it all. I made no contibution to my salvation.

Additonally:
Many Church's of Christ recognize the work of the Holy Spirit today.
And when someone said something about polytheism that was just silly.
Nobody here believes in multiple gods.
But one eternal perfect God revealed in three persons.

To sit one here and twist and twist what was trying to be relayed about the work of the Holy Spirit is a waste of your time.

And I made the mistake of trying to expound on the subject, thinking you might want to learn, but now realize yall were just looking to tear apart what I was saying.

My last words on here and they are my last, is that I pray that folks that expound on here can start to focus on the Lord Jesus Christ. That God is the author
of all Truth, not a Church. And to pretend that you have all truth To start focusing on the important, the salvation of souls, not the unimportant petty differences amoung worship styles of the brethren.

And please dont break down a re-define what I say on this message just let anyone who reads it draw there own conclusions.
If you take your own pre-concieved notions about water baptizm and the Holy Spirit and try to redefine what I say it clouds any message. Leave it alone.

David:

I realize that my preceding post regarding the holy Spirit—which is the Spirit of our Lord and which dwells in the believer—seemed quite extensive. I quoted passages regarding the work of God’s Spirit from the New Testament, including those you had provided earlier. I also quoted many passages from the Old Testament because the Spirit of God had already been at work in various forms since creation—not just on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God also manifested itself, although in a different supernatural way. Yes, now God’s Spirit dwells in the believer. “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” (I John 5:6, KJV)

I am sorry, either that you were too overwhelmed by the number of passages I quoted to “illuminate the work of the Holy Spirit” or that you chose to reject the truth. It is quite difficult for me to comprehend that you wanted to specialize in the subject of the Holy Spirit, but yet you were unwilling to cover your own base regarding the matter. Just try preaching to the unbeliever and begin with: “Be immersed into the Holy Ghost”—and see what kind of response you’ll get. “What, Holy … Ghost? Uh … You must be loopy.”

The truth of the matter is that there is no way to discuss the subject without relating it to the gospel of Christ and conversion to discipleship. In fact, it is the gospel of Christ that must be preached, not “immersion into the Holy Ghost.”

David, if you must insist: “But one eternal perfect God revealed in three persons….” I urge you again to re-examine the Catholic Church’s “Trinity” concept or doctrine. You still have to prove the 3rd “personhood” of the Holy Ghost.

I am sorry to hear that you now really despise the church. I have no control over that. Yes, I may have wasted my time with you. But I am glad that I have written a number of articles related to the subject of the Holy Spirit. It has given me a chance to re-examine the Catholic-inherited concept of the Trinity, not that the Holy Spirit is not to be believed in, but that this Spirit is holy and that it is also identified as the “Spirit OF God” or the “Spirit OF Christ” or the “Spirit OF truth” or “Truth” or the “Spirit OF our Lord.” It is the SPIRIT OF our God that dwells in the believer—and how difficult is that to understand? And on that basis, how can one not see that the Spirit of our Lord (HIS SPIRIT) is not the 3rd “personhood”? (Did you ever count the number of passages in which the word “Spirit” precedes the word “WHICH”?)

Lastly, familiar passages for you: “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (II Timothy 2:15, KJV) “And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God…” (Ephesians 6:17). After all, we’ve been studying God’s word. It is really true that “THE WORD OF GOD” is “THE SWORD OF THE SPIRIT”—the SPIRIT that indwells the believer.

Donnie

Donnie,
When I stated I had nothing else to say, it was about the Holy Ghost(Spirit).
You had to throw in, that I despised the church, that is a false statement. I will respond to that.
Christ determines who is a member of His church.
Not by power or might or force of man but by his Spirit.
I love the church of Christ, and all its members whether they worship at a Church of Christ, a believers Church or a baptist Church a Calvary Chapel or whatever Church they meet to worship the true and living God.
The problem I have is when men put together an organization proclaiming they speak for all believers and claim their pattern is the only correct pattern and the only church.
MOST members of the Church of Christ I know do not feel this way about themselves, they arent at fault.
Its just a handful that still are holding out that they are the one true church and nobody else is a member of Christ's church. I disagree with these folks very greatly, they dont determine this.
I would imagine I love the true Church more than you can imagine. The true church being all born again regenerated believers who's faith is in the cross of Christ alone, wherever they assemble.
And when I attend Worship it is to worship the True and Living God, not to take notes about what somebody
is or isn't doing to my approval.
God is a Spirit and those who worship, worship in spirit and in truth.
David.

David,
I have read some of the your dialog here and you sound very strong in your faith. I, for one, appreciate your willingness to discuss these things with respect and without sarcasm toward the person whom you are addressing. It really takes time and thought sometimes to write words here that do not sound angry, dis-respectful or mean but sometimes they still come across that way without any of those intentions.

You made a very true statement "Christ determines who is a member of his church". What is it? The/His Church? Whose Church? Christ's Church? The "Church of Christ". See what I mean? There is only one (1) "Church" of/from Christ.

Christ put together the "organization" not men. You can be a "believer" and still not be a Christian. The only "Correct" pattern comes from the Bible.

If worship includes anything contrary to "Spirit, Truth, Unity or Peace" then it does not belong. These words are defined in "Re-post: Interested in serious thoughts".

I would never make presumptions on anothers worship sincerity regardless of how/what/who they are worshipping but we have directives and inderectives in the Bible that instruct us on how to worship God. It is for our benefit as well as our Heavenly Father.

God bless you brother,
Larry

Hi Larry,
You are right, after rereading my dialog several times I may have responded tersely, because a bit
of frustration from having the objective of my post
reinterpreted several times, still its not right to show any frustration, just respond with gentleness and great patience.
This wasnt shown towards me, but thats no excuse, I appreciate you pointing that out, as I grow in Christ he is still removing many warts and shortcomings I still have. But, I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Phil 3:13. Obviously I have a ways to go, but press on towards the goal.
Your Brother in Christ. David.

David,

In our earlier discussions regarding the subject of the Holy Spirit, you were saying things that Christians, in general, already know—the promised Comforter, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, etc.—which really weren’t the points of differences. Obviously, you avoided to answer questions and issues related to the study of the Holy Spirit in depth. You refused to see how God’s Spirit has worked since creation on through the day of Pentecost for varying specific purposes and reasons. You chose not take a serious look at or validate the evolution of the Trinity concept—the one and only reason why I brought up the Roman Catholic Church from which it originated; why I brought up Protestantism (in general) which accepted this Catholic doctrine without question; why I brought up Pentecostalism which has SUPERSIZED this concept to prove raising the dead and speaking in tongues are at work today. I now realize that my questions to you were too detailed, thorough and comprehensive—you seemed to have no clue or answers to those valid questions regarding the Holy Spirit.

As a way of escape from the complexity of the nature of the Holy Spirit, you are now shifting to another subject—the church. Alright, let’s do it but briefly.

Please review your earlier posts. Here are a few—unedited:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David K—Re: "How can these things be". (August 15 2003, 6:20 PM)
The Church of Christ's I have attended have twisted this scripture verse every single time I have heard it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David K—Re: Water and Spirit (August 18 2003, 11:25 AM)
… over the years I have gone to different Churches in different towns. Up until 2 years I attended Church of Christ's only. … Each Church of Christ I have ever been to interpreted the verse being "born again of water and the spirit".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David K—Re: Donnie (August 19 2003, 11:08 AM)
Nor or members of the body of Christ who happen to attend a Baptist Church or other non-denominational Church's any less a Christian than those that attend Church of Christs. … Most of the folks I have met who have confidence in their Church are Catholic's, Church of Christ, Mormon, Jehovahs Witnesses and a few Charismatics seem to have an undue reliance on their Church, usually Word of Faith people which is based on a false view of Christ.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David K—Re: Holy Spirit (August 25 2003, 12:18 PM)
Additonally to try and get it across that Christianity isnt resricted to only the Church of Christ, which is a denomination whether you admit it or not.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Do you now see where you gave me the impression that you have left the “Church of Christ”? Regardless of whether or not you consider the “Church of Christ” a denomination—from your standpoint—you just did not find in this particular church the subject of the Holy Spirit taught the way you wanted it taught. So, you ended up finding that doctrine taught somewhere else, when all you had to do was find it and verify it in the scriptures.

You were the one who kept naming the specific religious groups—not I. You were constantly comparing the “Church of Christ” with specific denominations, as if it, too, were a denomination. What has surprised me the most is that you failed to include in your list—based on your own denominational concept of “the church”—many other religious groups. You named: Believers Church, Baptist Church, Calvary Chapel and Whatever Church. Would you add to your list: Christian Science, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons), Seventh Day Adventist, Branch Davidians, Buddhist Communities, Churches of Illumination, Divine Science, Religious Society of Friends, Beachy Amish Mennonite Churches, Hutterian Brethren, Social Brethren, Schwenkfelder Church, Triumph the Church and Kingdom of God in Christ, and others?

Let me remind you, David, that whether or not there was the Restoration Movement or men like Barton Stone, Thomas and Alexander Campbell, and others, the truth remains that the New Testament church was established by Christ on the day of Pentecost. The objective of the Restoration Movement was to denounce denominationalism (in the first place) and restore the church that bears the name of Christ. Successful or not, it doesn’t change the fact that there was, indeed, the church that our Lord built. The fact remains that all other churches have been founded by men.

It is your prerogative to think that the “Church of Christ” that we know today is a denomination. Likewise, it is my prerogative to think “the church” of Christ (notice that the word “church” is not capitalized), which is the body of Christ or the bride of Christ, is not a denomination. In order for a church to belong to Christ scripturally is for that church to bear His precious and honorable name, first of all, and not be ashamed of it. Then, that church must teach the gospel of Christ, the truth, to the lost world; it must abide by the scriptures for exhortation and edification of its members.

Does it mean that Donnie Cruz has the right to condemn and judge those affiliated with other religious groups? NO! Do members of the church of Christ have the right to say that everyone else is going to hell? NO! Shouldn’t we just let God’s Word be our guide? YES! Shouldn’t we just let God do the judging of everyone? YES!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie

Hey Donnie,
I didnt change the subject to the Church, but responded to your comment that stated I despised the Church, which is a falsehood.
I didnt say Whatever Church, but "whatever church they meet to worship the true and living God".
Your long list of Church's that don't worship the true God but almost without exception distort the gospel message and also add a works or merit based salvation would NOT be amoung those "worshipping the true and living God".

To the list of false gospel Church's you could add what is called the Catholic Church, which has a works and merit derived salvation as well as a bunch of flat false teachings about the Pope's, saints, Mary, indulgences, puragtory, the Mass, Church Tradition and Idol's, which they even took out a commandment to avoid the graven image commandment.

I feel sorrow for those poor souls that are trusting the Church and not the finished atonement of the Lord for their salvation. They feel very strongly they are the one true Church and claim to trace their lineage back to the beginnings of Christianity. But to trust anything other than Christ FINISHED atonement is a false trust.


Certainly the eumenical movement that is currently sweeping Church's, that think all Church's and religions are OK is a false movement. We don't disagree there Donnie.

Pretty much any religious group that add's any works of their's along with the finished work of Christ to obtain salvation, is a false religion. That would include any Religion outside of Christianity and many religious groups within professed Christianity that elevate man by thinking their works contribute to Christ's finished atonement, to merit their salvation.
Even in Church's that preach the gospel message, way too many people have a sense of pride in their works or life or righteousness.

When God states clearly that "we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," Pretty much puts our good "works" into perspective.
David.

David,

Certainly, it helps the cause of Christ and His church when we denounce denominationalism. I honestly believe that Christ did not mean for “I am the vine and ye are the branches” to represent Christ as the head of all denominational churches. After all, Christ is the head of the church that belongs to Him and bears His name.

When it comes to salvation (and due to time restraints on my part), let me just briefly state that there is really no contradiction among the different passages from the Scripture. The whole concept is that we are under GRACE, unlike those who lived under the Law of Moses. Our past salvation (such as by complying with the requirements of repentance and of baptism in order for sins to be remitted) DID NOT REQUIRE GOOD WORKS—it was indeed by FAITH (Ephesians 2:8,9).

PRESENT SALVATION in a Christian, who is still under GRACE, requires vigilance—there is a possibility of falling from grace (“take heed lest ye fall,” etc.). Yes, faith and good works at this stage go hand in hand. Hebrews 5:8,9 states—“Though he were a Son, yet learned he OBEDIENCE by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY him.” (KJV) Do you see the significance of being “obedient”—yes, good works! James 2:17—“Even so FAITH, if it hath not WORKS, is dead, being alone.” (KJV) Again, it’s not by faith only. It is by faith and works. Luke 13:24—“STRIVE to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.” Philippians 2:12—“… WORK out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

Future salvation is the receiving of the reward of life eternal in heaven after our strivings here on earth. James 1:12—“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Rev. 2:10—“… Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

Donnie

Our present salvation demands that our FAITH does not waver and that we maintain GOOD WORKS. Additional references follow:

“[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our FAITH WITHOUT WAVERING; (for he is faithful that promised;) [24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto LOVE and to GOOD WORKS…” (Hebrews 10, KJV)

“[7] That being justified by his GRACE, we should be made heirs according to the HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. [8] This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. These things are good and profitable unto men. [14] And let ours also learn to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.” (Titus 3, KJV)

“[10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2, KJV)

“[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and LET US RUN WITH PATIENCE THE RACE THAT IS SET BEFORE US, [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12, KJV)

[24] Know ye not that they which RUN IN A RACE run all, but one receiveth the prize? SO RUN, THAT YE MAY OBTAIN. [25] And every man that STRIVETH for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. [26] I THEREFORE SO RUN, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air…” (I Corinthians 9, KJV)

Other passages that pertain to the importance of good works in a Christian’s journey to receiving the promise of eternal life:

Matthew 5:16—“Let your light so shine … that they may see your GOOD WORKS …”
I Timothy 6:18—“That they do good, that they be rich in GOOD WORKS…”
Titus 2:7—“In all things shewing thyself a pattern of GOOD WORKS…”
Titus 2:14—“… and purify … a peculiar people, zealous of GOOD WORKS…”
I Peter 2:12—“… by your GOOD WORKS … glorify God…”

Hi Donnie,
I dont think we have that much disagreement here.
we both know clearly that a faith without works is a
dead faith.
That the guy who parties, is adulterous, carrouses in broad daylight, doesnt contribute, cares only about himself, has made this world his god, but claims to have a faith in Jesus is decieving himself.
This person is either backsliding badly or not a Christian at all. More likely the latter.
Eph 2:10 States, "We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God has prepared beforhand that we should walk in them."
Titus 2:14 says to be "zealous of good works".
But, we are prepared FOR good works not saved by them.
Course we can quote scripture back and forth on this subject, but I would be remiss to not quote some scripture related to justification by faith.

Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Romans 11:6 "But if it is by grace, IT IS NO longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace"
Galatians 2:16 "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not the works of the law, since by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
Galattians 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God: for if righteousness comes throught he Law, then Christ died needlessly."

A very clear teach is Romans 3:23-28
" For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Jesus Christ: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a PROPITIATION through faith in his blood, to declare HIS righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. 26 "To declare, I say, at this time HIS righteousness: that HE might be just, and the JUSTIFIER of him who believeth in Jesus.
27 " Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 "Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without the deeds of law."

This passage about Abraham:
Romans 4:11
"And he recieved the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also.
Romans 4:3 "And what does the scripture say, And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness".
This was reckoned before his ACTS of faith or works, because he believed.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:13 " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation,
having believed you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise."
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith: and that not of yourselves it is the GIFT of God. Not of works lest any man should boast."
Phillipians 13:9 "and may be found IN HIM, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Galatians 3:5-6 " Does he then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles amoung you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
"Even so Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."

Romans 4:16 "Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only those who are of the law, but also to those who are the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us.

To me James 2:24, is clearly there to let us know we are saved unto good works.
That a faith without works, "which have been planned for us", is in fact a dead faith. And a dead faith is no faith at all.
However, righteousness was imputed to Abraham when he believed, not when he did his works or when he was circumcised, he did his works because of his true faith, because he truly believed.
His righteousness wasnt derived from his works, but from the One on whom he believed.
This is only because as is stated over and over again throughout the Bible, grace is imputed not earned by man. It was earned at the cross of calvary, by Christ alone. The imputation of righteousness is from Christ. His righteousness and His salvation.
Even in the Old Testament it states in Jonah
" Salvation is of the Lord."

So I dont think we really disagree about works, in that we both understand a "faith without works is dead". But, we may disagree about the purpose of works.
The Bible says to "work out your salvation" , not work for you salvation. There is a tremendous difference in the two.

David,

I don’t believe you’ve quoted enough passages about faith and grace. There are over 250 passages regarding “faith,” most of which are in the New Testament, and about 170 passages relating to “grace.” But that’s fine. (Besides, the all-important subject of “faith” or “grace” is NOT an issue in this thread.)

In a way, there is a lot of truth in an advertisement that says “timing is everything” (as in past, present and future). Better yet is the passage that says “rightly dividing the word of truth.” I pointed out earlier that there’s really nothing confusing about understanding that we were saved from our past sins “by grace through faith.” We received forgiveness of our PAST SINS by the blood of the Lamb in compliance with repentance and baptism. That was our PAST SALVATION—good works were not necessary, agree?

Regardless of how “works” or “good works” should be interpreted by you, the truth is that a Christian’s PRESENT SALVATION requires good works to go along with faith. The believer can “fall from grace”—and the idea of “ONCE SAVED … ALWAYS SAVED” is the biggest lie in Christendom. A Christian must strive, must run the race with patience, must remain faithful unto death, must remain obedient—all so that FUTURE SALVATION (eternal life in heaven)—a Christian’s goal—may be received. Simple truth!

Please reread my earlier posts: “The Church” (September 4 2003, 6:27 AM and September 5 2003, 3:43 AM). Let’s not complicate matters.

Donnie

When you go to a play ground you expect to play. When you go to church you should expect to worship. We are blessed to live in an age when we have plenty of time and money for recreation. It is good for our minds and our bodies. It is a mistake, however, to think of worship in terms of recreation and entertainment.

Many modern churches have evolved from centers for the worship of Jehovah into recreational centers with worship available for those who might possibly be interested. This has come about, in part, to attract attendees who are not particularly interested in worship and Bible study.

We see churches advertising their gyms, their ball teams, exercise classes and other recreational type programs. They are very proud of these things, even though no authority is found for them in Scripture. God expects his church to abide within the teaching of Christ, if she is to have his approval (II John 9).

Be assured that ball games and exercise programs are good and useful in their place. Christians can enjoy them along with their neighbors. It is not, however, the mission and business of the church to provide these activities.

When serving God, we should be happy to devote our time and energy to those activities that Christ has ordained for his church - preaching the gospel, worshiping God in spirit and in truth, educating and strengthening the members of the body, and caring for the needy are things God has charged us to do (Mark 16:15; Ephesians 4:12; James 1:27). God did not see fit to include recreation in his plan for his church. We should be satisfied to be and do what He expects of us.

As servants under the authority of Christ our Lord (Matthew 28:18), we must be content to do what he has outlined and authorized (Matthew 28:20).

John Waddey

Is Christian Worship Regulated by New Testament Law?

by Wayne Jackson
Christian Courier: Penpoints

A gentleman affiliated with the Independent Christian Church has argued that Christian worship is not regulated by New Testament law? Does this theory have the support of Scripture?
———————————————————————————————————————————

A recent article from a gentleman affiliated with the Independent Christian Church contends that the New Testament is not a “set of laws” to which the Christian is obligated. He argues that the essence of the New Testament is love and grace, and “love is not law” and “grace is not law.” One of the conclusions our friend draws, therefore, is this. There is no “worship” ritual to which the child of God is bound on a weekly basis in this age.

Sadly, this student is quite mistaken. He, and others of his persuasion, have been driven to this unscriptural and illogical position due to the fact that they have been unable to find New Testament authority for some of the acts in which they participate. Accordingly, they have simply dismissed the idea that the New Testament regime is buttressed with law, and they have opted for a humanly-devised worship program. But consider the following brief points which fly in the face of this theory.

Does Grace and Love Preclude Law?

The notion that the New Testament system is all “love” and “grace,” and therefore it is bereft of “law” is a serious error. The Old Testament prophets declared that the new administration would constitute a “law” from God (Isa. 2:2-4; Jer. 31:31-34). The sacred New Testament writers spoke of the “law of Christ” (Gal. 6:2; cf. 1 Cor. 9:21).

While the New economy is not a legal system completely analogous to the Old, one should never conclude that the New is void of a pattern of teaching, worship, or conduct regulation. Romans 6:17 speaks of that “form” (“pattern,” ASV fn; “standard,” ESV) of teaching to which we have been committed. If the New Testament is not law, one could never sin today, because sin, by definition, is a transgression of law (1 Jn. 3:4; cf. Rom. 4:15).

Worshipping in Truth

The novel notion that no worship format is bound upon Christians today stands in bold contradiction to the teaching of Jesus and his inspired penmen. It was the Lord himself who said that worship must be rendered to God “in truth” (Jn. 4:24), which, elsewhere, he indicated was embodied within the word of God (Jn. 17:17).

Similarly, Paul affirmed that the true people of the Lord are those who “worship by the Spirit” (Phil. 3:3), which means by the Spirit’s instruction (as conveyed through the Scriptures – Eph. 6:17).

“Will-worship” Is Condemned

If there is not a prescribed worship ritual for the Lord’s day, then one is free to do nothing at all, or, if he elects to worship, he has the license to improvise his own procedures. He thus would be allowed to practice an “arbitrary” worship. But this is exactly what the Bible condemns as “will-worship” (Col. 2:23).

J.H. Thayer comments on the Greek term that is rendered "will-worship" (ethelo-threskeia). He says it denotes “worship which one devises and prescribes for himself” (Greek-English Lexicon, Edinburgh: T.&T. Clark, 1958, p. 168). This is precisely what our erring friend argues in favor of in the article sited above.

F.W. Danker defines “will-worship” as a “self-made” or “do-it-yourself religion” (Greek-English Lexicon, Chicago: University of Chicago, 2000, p. 276; cf. NIV; ESV).

Sound Hermeneutics Rejected

The ideology defended by the gentleman under review is the result of an abandonment of the full complement of sound hermeneutical principles by which biblical authority is established. It rejects, for example, the force of binding examples and logical inferences deduced from scriptural premises.

In summary, the “unregulated worship” dogma is symptomatic of a serious misunderstanding of New Testament truth – if one views the ideology in the best possible light. At worst, it could reflect a disposition of arrogant presumption.

Long time no see. It's good to be back. Since this post is about worship, I wanted to post a question to see the responces I get. This is aimed at no one in particular, and I'm just looking for what people have to say on the issue.

Why is worship with instruments a bad thing?

The OT promotes the use of instruments (Take for example Psalm 150:3-5... 3. Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. 4. Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. 5. Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.) and the NT stands silent on the issue, or doesn't say anything against them.

If it pleased God before, and wasn't spoken out against in the NT, why would it be displeasing to God now?

Thanks ahead of time for everyone that responds. It was just something I was thinking about and was wondering the opinions of my fellow brothers and sisters. God bless everyone, and it's good to be back.

Your fellow brother,

Craig Sewell

Hello … Craig,

Welcome back [to the Madison family or to this wonderful learning site]! Where have you been in the last few months? You certainly have a lot of catching up to do—new challenging threads and articles for you to browse … “study” is probably a better word!

Craig, I think this issue has been discussed to death before. But, it’s okay to somewhat revive this discussion. To start out and before we go any further with this study, I have a couple of things to comment on or ask you:

• I’m surprised that you quoted from the KJV, but I won’t complain. I have checked out the NIV, NLT (New Living) and YLT (Young’s Literal) and combined all possible instruments listed: trumpet, psaltery, harp, lyre, stringed, organ, cymbal, pipe, tambourine, flute. So, based on the passage you provided from Psalms 150:3-5—which of these instruments would be your personal preferences and would “enhance” the “musical worship” that “worshippers” now seem to enjoy and that is entertaining? Keep this in mind: … in addition to the already complex musical programming, plus the solos and praise teams, the humming and the unintelligible sounds that come from somewhere; plus the loud rhythmic and instrument-emulating handclapping going on now?

• Speaking of musical instruments, so far as I’ve been told personally by certain elders, that “in no way are ever going to be introduced in worship at Madison”—is this something that you’re contemplating on suggesting to Bruce White and the elders to be implemented sometime? As you know, Mr. White stated in his sermon last Sunday that he really loves the young people—and who doesn’t or shouldn’t anyway? I was just thinking that young people these days often get their requests granted easily—and why not this request coming from you and other young people? (By the way, Craig, I posted Dr. White’s “unofficially” transcribed sermon “Devoted” in thread: “But the Apostles Received a Supernatural Outpouring of the Holy Spirit”—in case you’re interested in reviewing it.)

• Certainly, you didn’t forget the segment that says, “Praise him with … dance”—did you? Do you think dancing would help enhance worship as well? Should this be included in the “musical worship” programming? As you know, we already have contemporary “HYMNS” that mention the word “dancing”; there’s even a contemporary HYMN titled “Clap Your Hands”—which is a verb, an action word, that sounds like a COMMAND to me.

I’m sure I can think of other questions I need to ask you. But please take these points into consideration first. I’d like to hear your comments and then we’ll proceed in discussing this issue further. It’s interesting that you stated one of your questions as follows: “Why is worship with instruments a bad thing?”

Good to hear from you!

Donnie Cruz

Hey Donnie,

It's good to hear from you again. I hope all is well with you.

I quoted out of a KJV, because it happened to be the version sitting by my computer. I didn't really have reason to use it, other then the simple fact that it was by my computer and I was too lazy to get another. lol. I don't think I've heard of the YLT. Is it any good?

I wasn't aiming my original post at Madison. Rather, the C of C in general. Seeing as the C of C looks down on musical instruments in worship. I think I thought it was implied, because of the original title of this post is "Worship Opinions and Preferences in the Church of Christ", and I was just wondering why worship with instruments was looked down on by the C of C. Like I posted in my orginal post, "If it pleased God before, and wasn't spoken out against in the NT, why would it be displeasing to God now?". I didn't mean to imply that I wanted Madison to have musical worship. I am sorry though if that's how it came across. Don't worry I'm not going to try and change Madison. It was just a question, and not a suggestion of change. Sorry again if that came across wrong. I try to use my words wisely, but a lot of the time things come out wrong or not fully the way I want them to. It is something I'm still learning and working on.

So once again "If it pleased God before, and wasn't spoken out against in the NT, why would it be displeasing to God now?". I'm just asking that question to whoever what's to give me input.

Thanks for the responce Donnie.I hope mine will lead you to the direction I was origianlly trying to go. I hope to hear back from ya soon. God Bless.

Your Fellow Brother,

Craig Sewell

Craig,

I reference various translations online for comparative analyses and studies. I would guess that the YLT serves its purpose. Of course, the KJV is my favorite. I can appreciate the beauty of the English language when it uses THEE, THOU, THY, THINE in reference to our Father in heaven, instead of the plain old “you” or whatever. Just a personal reverential preference!

I was really just “talking” nonsensically about you making suggestions related to “musical worship.” But you could have commented on: (1) your personal preferences, since the passage mentions several musical instruments; and (2) dancing.

You had one question: “Why is worship with instruments a bad thing?” Were you trying to qualify that with another question: “If it pleased God before, and wasn't spoken out against in the NT, why would it be displeasing to God now?"

There are other questions that come to mind. In the passage you quoted from Psalms 150:3-5—

• Praise is mentioned; worship is not mentioned;
• If praise and worship mean the same;
• Singing is not mentioned in this chapter;
• If singing were mentioned (as in the previous chapter), could one blow the trumpet while singing;
• It keeps mentioning: “praise him with” something—an instrument—leaving out singing;
• How does one know that praising with an instrument was pleasing to God;
• How does one know which was more pleasing to God: singing or playing an instrument

Colossians 2:23 (KJV) states: “Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.” Other versions render “will worship” as “self-imposed worship” (NIV) or “self-made religion” (NASB) or “self-appointed religion” (NKJ). Scholars have defined it as a “cultus which is freely chosen, which is not commanded or forbidden." This definition reminds me of the very popular expression “try it … you’ll like it” which is associated with, in this case, offering up worship “because we like it.”

Worship, then, is no longer according to what God has commanded, but rather according to “my will.” There are clear examples, even in the Old Testament itself, in which people made offerings to God according to man’s will. For instance, Cain was required to offer the blood sacrifice; but he offered what he desired instead. Are we any different than Cain when we freely choose the kind of worship that is pleasing to us just because it is neither commanded nor prohibited?

Colossians 3:16 clearly states: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord..”

Craig, I am very sure that you can list many things that we do not do in worship that are not commanded or forbidden in the New Testament. And we know better, don’t we? What’s significant is our recognition of and avoiding what appeals to that which is carnal—in our worship to our Father.

Donnie

Hi Craig,
This is the way I see it. It's not so much that worship with instruments is a "Bad Thing", it's that instruments of music are not a "Spiritual Thing". They are "Man-Made" for "Man's" pleasure. I assume Musical Instruments were not mentioned in the New Testament because the writers did not think it necessary. A Spirit does not have flesh and bones. Luke 24:39.

In the Old Testament, they also made blood sacrifices of animals which are not necessary now that the blood of the "Lamb of God" was shed for our sins and his "Spirit" lives on. We now are to worship in "Spirit" and "Truth", John 4:24, because God is "Spirit" and endeavoring to keep the "Unity" of The "Spirit" in the bond of "Peace". Ephesians 4:3.

Here is an section of a article that I wrote while pondering on this very question.

{"I have been a musician practically my whole life. I can, contrary to some peoples beliefs, sit down at the piano or guitar, at home, and play psalms, hymns and spiritual songs and be extremely truthful and spiritual in what I am singing, while I am playing the instrument. However, there is no way that everyone in a worship assembly could play an instrument even if they knew how thus breaking down “Unity”. Even if everyone had an instrument and could play it, it would still not be Unified “Spiritual” worship. In a worship service where we are to worship in spirit and truth, the musical instrument is a “Physical” not “Spiritual” addition, not to mention artificial, and might inspire listening instead of participation, which would cancel out “Truthful”, worship also."}

Everything in the worship service of a congregation is about praising God through "Spiritual" Participation.

Thank you and God bless you,
Larry