Worship Opinions and Preferences in the Church of Christ
January 10 2003 at 2:57 PM
(no login) from IP address 170.143.252.237
What IS the Church of Christ? To answer this, first you have to realize that it IS NOT just another denomination because the name says it all. It is, very simply, the CHURCH of CHRIST. It is and should be modeled after biblical directives, examples and standards set forth by Jesus Christ through the inspired writers of the New Testament and/or including the apostles. It is and should be an attempted reflection, if not duplication, of the practices of the New Testament Church (of Christ).
The one, single thing that distinguishes and characterizes denominations, as well as, the Church of Christ is THE WAY IN WHICH THEY WORSHIP GOD. Modern, “contemporary” times may call for adjustments in some aspects of the worship service but the values of “SPIRIT”,”TRUTH”,”UNITY” and “PEACE” on which it was founded should remain the same. Denominations are only separations from the Church of Christ that decided that it was “UP TO THEM” how they “WANTED” to worship based on their Worldly OPINIONS and PREFERENCES. That sounds very familiar to what is going on now even in many congregations that still calls themselves Church’s of Christ.
“Physical, Carnal or Worldly opposes the SPIRIT”.
“Artificiality opposes TRUTH.”
“Separation opposes UNITY”.
“Agitation opposes PEACE”.
Your statement that other denominations are just a separation from the CofC is a joke! The CofC was not even a denomination (and yes that is what we are)until the 1800s. Show me ANY documentation that preposes that the CofC existed during any time before that.
to suppose that the CofC is God's one and ONLY preordained church where the members are the only ones going to heaven (and that is what I believe you did when you described what we are in your mind) is preposterous and INCREDIBLY self-righteous on your part.
We DO NOT have it all right. We may have certain things right, but to say WE interpret scripture the "correct" way and that all of the "separators" or "denominations" are not a part of the "Church" because they do not have it all figured out is an incredibly stupid thing to say. There were men like that is Jesus day, they were called Pharasees and they KILLED our Lord because he said some RADICAL things.
Lets just get down to the heart of the matter. You old folks and some others, do not prefer some of the things that are changing in the Churches of Christ. That is the precursor for all of this "hoopla" about worship teams and the like. It is nothing more.
You use buzz words like "Catholic" and "Worship in Spirit and Truth" and "Be silent where the Bible is silent", but in the end it is just that these changes are uncomfortable for you. JUST ADMIT IT! I would have alot more respect and be willing to dialog with some of you guys if you would just admit that.
I am not a college student either, I am 38 years old and sick of seeing our "denomination" turn away hurting folks who have gotten divorced or are alcoholics or drug abusers just because their life "isn't right with God". and then these same self-righteous "bible-thumpers" want to make sure we worship in spirit and truth singing all of the "right" songs and taking communion the "right" way. At the same time these people are the biggest hipocrites in the church cheating on their wives and drinking and drugging. It is just that no one knows.....And, I have seen this FIRST HAND ALL OF MY LIFE!!! I am not just blowing smoke.
Once we figure out that it is not OK to shoot our own wounded, then maybe we can talk about worship styles and all that stuff. Until then, GIVE ME A BREAK and shut up about what you think you know as the truth.
In the New Testament, the NAME of God is Jesus Christ, Joshua or Jehovah- Saved.
The term "church of GOD" uses the name while understanding that, to us Full Deity is bound up in Jesus Christ. The word "god" is a generic word and is really derived from the word GAD. This is the name of a tribe or a pagan god. As GAD he was king David's SEER or STARGAZER. Therefore, the word GOD is like calling Blackie the mostly- Chow "Hey Dog."
Jesus Christ (always included) when Jesus or Christ are used alone is the name of JEHOVAH GOD. Furthermore, the word 'CHURCH' was a late adaptation from paganism. Our "church" is the ASSEMBLY: therefore, I would be happy with the term The Assembly of Jesus Christ. But almost ALL of history disagrees.
While people speak of the "universal" or catholic church, this was not the NAME given to the church. The Catholic Church in time became an APOSTATE CHURCH OF CHRIST.
Ignatius who died c. 110 and could have known John or maybe Paul wrote to the EPHESIANS:
========And if those that corrupt mere human families are condemned to death, how much more shall those suffer everlasting punishment who endeavour to corrupt the CHURCH OF CHRIST, for which the Lord Jesus, the only-begotten Son of God, endured the cross, and submitted to death! Whosoever, "being waxen fat," 116 and "become gross," sets at nought His doctrine, shall go into hell.
"In like manner, every one that has received from God the power of distinguishing, and yet follows an unskilful shepherd, and receives a false opinion for the truth, shall be punished."
Therefore, the church at Ephesus was always know as THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. It had no located preachers, it had elders and deacons (both with teaching authority), it had no deaconesses, it had no music, it took the Lord's Supper,it baptized FOR the remission of sins etc. The CHURCH OF CHRIST gradually fell away but as late as 1911 it was UNLAWFUL to use instruments in the presence of the Pope which were the only official services.
Here is a growing list to prove that from beginning to end when you take then name Jesus or Christ off your church sign you repudiate Lord Jesus Christ.
http://www.piney.com/ChofChristName.html
With all of my compassion for your problems with churches, the SAME people who BROKE the church as a local assembly of friends NOW want to EXTORT tithes and offerings so that you can PAY them to fix what they broke.
The church of Christ for hundreds of years provided "monks" or preachers who educated Europe working, like Paul, as vocational preachers. The church Paul defined in Romans 15 was to ABROGATE the "religion of worship" which would surely further DIVIDE the people in Rome, was to GLORIFY GOD WITH ONE VOICE and the material was THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN.
They didn't collect money from the poor to feed the preacher but they collected money to help the SICK or POOR "ONLY." The church may have failed you because spiritually sick people have found a way to siphon off the PROFITS for themselves or to build mansions they call "church houses." In those, they sing, clap and play like children and don't know that you exist.
It may comfort you to know that the BURDEN Jesus removed turned PAGAN SINGING upside down and made it into a community TEACHING and COMFORTING the hurt souls while glorifying God whith "that which is written." When they passed the "collection plate" it was to GIVE to the poor.
There is only a couple of reasons that I can think of for anyone taking the time to post an article here and not use their name. 1) Because they are not really sure of what they are saying, or 2) Because they feel it is beneath them and they do not want anyone to really know who they are.
Since your response came from the same URL as the PREACHERMAN, I am assuming that is whom you are.
Preacherman,
It is hard to tell when someone is being sincere and not just argumentative when they post such an insulting article as this. I am going to respond to this even though, and partly because of that. I want you and anyone else reading here to know where I stand.
You asked for documentation showing that the Church of Christ existed before the 1800s. Here’s a couple:
Matthew 16:18 “And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build MY CHURCH and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it”.
Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is head of the wife, as also CHRIST is the head of the CHURCH: and He is the Savior of the body”.
These are examples of where and how the CHURCH (of Christ) originated. IT IS NOT A DENOMINATION although many assemblies calling themselves Churches of Christ are looking more like it all the time.
I am not supposing anything about pre-ordination or that anyone is or is not going to heaven. That is in God’s hands. I do believe strongly that there are firm reasons why the Bible indicates the ways and means for the Church to Worship, and organize, not the least of these being that they cause less friction and a more LOVING, SPIRTUAL and TRUTHFUL atmosphere for Christians here on EARTH.
I also want you to know that I AM NOT OLD! (Laugh). I’m three years older than you. Maybe you do consider 41 old but you are correct in assuming that I do not “PREFER” changes that turn “Spirituality and Truth” into “Carnality and Artificiality”. This does make me, and should make any Christian, UNCOMFORTABLE. I “admit it” preacher man!
I don’t know of any Church of Christ that TURNS AWAY ANYONE or SHOOTS THEIR WOUNDED. If they do, they are not truly the Church of Christ. I am and we are all SINNERS.
1 John 1:8 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us”.
The only business that you have with anyone that you consider a hypocrite is to teach and admonish him or her in what is right. Otherwise, it is in God’s hands and you don’t need to let it bother you.
John 8:7(b) “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first”.
Nice reply, Larry, as one can't argue against scripture!
The church has never been and can never be denominated. It is only some people who have allowed themselves to be denominated. Lineage back to the Jerusalem church is not necessary. The church grows where the seed (Word of God) is planted and watered into fertile ground (sincere hearts). This seed must not be a hybrid variety but the pure Word of God!
Don't feel like your the "old man" here, I've got you beaten by a year.
Oh it is sooooo funny to read your attempt at divining the roots of the DENOMINATION of the CofC. What a HOOT! The BODY of Christ is the CHURCH OF CHRIST. That includes ALL BELIEVERS despite what you think. READ JOHN 17!
The Church of Christ is not a name only we-who-go-to-a-building-with-a-sign-out-front-that-says-so can claim...are you SERIOUS??
I have grown up in the CofC all of my life and I THANK GOD for Him finally showing me what freedom we have in Christ! That freedom includes fellowshipping with those that we may have some doctrinal differences with but have EVERYTHING that matters in common with - J E S U S!
You know if you would just allow the Holy Spirit wo open your eyes and quit whining about what is WRONG with the portion of Christ's Body that we belong to, you might just like it. IMAGINE THAT!
Your tirades fall on deaf ears. Nothing will change as you would have it. Get used to it. Again...you never know, you might just like it.
The body of Christ is His church; however, there is only ONE body, ONE Spirit, ONE hope, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE immersion, ONE God and Father. If what you say is true (faith only salvation) then the demons are also in the body of Christ - how ridiculous - "even the demons believe and shudder" (James 2:19).
The phrase "church of Christ" is a description of whose we are, not what flavor we are. The freedom we have in Christ is NOT to do as we please, the freedom is from sin - washed by His blood through our belief, repentance, and immersion in water. We don't determine fellowship, only Christ can; therefore, those who haven't obeyed the Gospel aren't in fellowship with either Christ or those who have obeyed Christ (I John 1:1-7).
Perhaps you should allow the Holy Spirit to open your eyes by meditating on God's Word, after all, that is how the Holy Spirit works in our lives today. You are correct, to some extent, about deaf ears; "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths" (II Timothy 4:3-4).
"He who has ears, let him hear." - Jesus the Christ
I hope you are proud of the positive, influence in Christian maturity you are projecting here to people who may know or possibly may not know anything about Christianity.
I have to dissect this one.
The NAMELESS person ‘SYTYK’ made remarks in parenthesis. My remarks are marked with “*”;
(“Oh it is sooooo funny to read your attempt at divining the roots of the DENOMINATION of the CofC. What a HOOT! The BODY of Christ is the CHURCH OF CHRIST. That includes ALL BELIEVERS despite what you think. READ JOHN 17!”)
* I’m happy to be so amusing to you but if this is funny to you then you must be, as someone else said here before, just full of wit. I think you misspelled “defining” as “divining”, or did you do that on purpose? I will concede the term of DENOMINATION as a NAMING CONVENTION ONLY but the TRUE Church of Christ is not and never will be SECTARIAN. Correct! The Body of Christ IS the Church of Christ. It is a SPIRITUAL thing, not a PHYSICAL or WORLDLY thing! I did not say that it did not include ALL BELIEVERS and that is not WHAT I THINK. I have read Jesus’s prayer in John 17. I especially find verses 14 through 16 applicable here. You read them.
(“The Church of Christ is not a name only we-who-go-to-a-building-with-a-sign-out-front-that-says-so can claim...are you SERIOUS??”)
* I don’t believe that I have said this AT ALL! Or even insinuated it.
(“I have grown up in the CofC all of my life and I THANK GOD for Him finally showing me what freedom we have in Christ! That freedom includes fellowshipping with those that we may have some doctrinal differences with but have EVERYTHING that matters in common with - J E S U S!”)
* I grew up in the Church of Christ (that’s what the acronym you used stands for) also. We do not have the FREEDOM to TEACH (that’s what doctrine is) anything that opposes the values and characteristics of Unity, Peace, Spirituality and Truth exemplified and commanded by the Apostles and Jesus respectively for worship. THAT IS EVERYTHING THAT MATTERS (IN WORSHIP). The LORD is the object of our worship, appreciation and thankfulness. I fellowship with anyone, consider myself a friend to anyone and will help anyone in any way that I can, if asked. However, I AM quite repelling to un-friendly, un-kind people or people who EXALT themselves.
(“You know if you would just allow the Holy Spirit wo open your eyes and quit whining about what is WRONG with the portion of Christ's Body that we belong to, you might just like it. IMAGINE THAT!”)
* Mine eyes “are” open and the Holy Spirit speaks to me through the Words of the Bible. I NEVER whine, I am only echoing what the Holy Spirit has taught me through the WORD and the theology of the Church. I have yet to here a shred of biblical or doctrinal (as if these should be two different things) evidence to the contrary, only snide and immature remarks.
(“Your tirades fall on deaf ears. Nothing will change as you would have it. Get used to it. Again...you never know, you might just like it.”)
* I can definitely assume that YOU are not DEAF. The way that “I” would have it does not matter, only God. I will never get used to “Unity, Peace, Spirit and Truth” being replaced by “Separation, Agitation, Carnality and Artificiality”. I HAVE tried worshipping where such things were practiced and it was Detrimental and Distracting to my Spirituality, Reverent worship and especially my Concentration.
Larry, I am sure that Jesus is crying just as I am. You vanity SHOWS!! You, and others like you, try to make Christ's church your own by TELLING others what is right and what is wrong, and if we do not agree, then ostracising takes place. The way you do that is to twist and turn scripture to YOUR way of thinking.
SHAMEFUL!!!
Do you think that you have all scripture interpreted 100% correctly? If not, then the ANSWER is, you might have SOMETHING wrong. If so, then others can be right where you are wrong....see where this is going? You are intelligent enough to see the ABSOLUTELY PERFECT LOGIC...
Larry,
My brother I share in your concern over the direction of worship. However, the very nature of worship and adoration of Christ is self expressive. God in His wisdom called upon Adam to name the animals. We are to love the Lord our God with OUR heart, soul and strength. If the forms style and customs of worship were a fixed thing through history than Chales Westley would be anathama.
Secoundly the Church of Christ, as it should be called since He founded it, is defined more by relationship than by title. God moves in several bodies of believers.
Every body of believers is guided by a systematic theology. I doubt that anyone who simply sat down with the scriptures would come away with the teachings of the "Church of Christ" or and denomination in total. We as believers are guided by teaching and our relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit. In His Grace and mercy God allows for the diversity of His body. In essentials unity.
Love in Christ, Kevin
Worship is expression of self but an Expression from Self!
July 29 2003, 12:56 PM
Kevin,
You said, "My brother I share in your concern over the direction of worship. However, the very nature of worship and adoration of Christ is self expressive."
You are wrong about that. It is not to be self expressive but an expression from self to God. God has aready decided in what way we would express our worship. song, prayer, Lord's Supper, preaching, and giving. God has also given guidlines of how to worship, John 4:24, in spirit (from our hearts, meaningful, sincere) and truth (from God's Word (directly and correctly). We were not told to just do it in spirit, or else we could do anything as many do today. Spirit and Truth are our guidelines. God has also given the true way to worship in the acts of worship, Giving is to be done not grudgingly or of Necessity. Preaching is to be as the Oracles of God. Lord's Supper is to be done as Jesus institued it and not with changes or mixes. Prayer is to be done frequintley ant directed to the Father with divine reverence and sincerity. Song is to be the fruit of our lips music made in our hearts to the Lord and teaching and admonishing one another.
Worship is from self but not of self. We do not have the right to Worship god in any way we want. We do not have right to change worship to fit our wants. Read Lev. 10:1-2 Nadab and Abihu would love for it to be as you say.
The title of the church shows the relationship. Title is as much of the relationship as the relationship. Can you imagine a mans wife not going by her husbands name. Or taking a name she wants because its sounds better or because there are some that have made the s\name she wold get common?
The church as the bride of Christ can not call itself by any other name than what was given. Acts 11:26
Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit??? What???
I don't understand that. Matt. 28:18-20
What is an essential?
Worship?
Name?
Doctrine?
Organization?
The Church of Christ would not be what it is if we did not study for ourselves to get a system of belief.
Traditions (like number of songs before prayer, color of carpet, meeting times) are different from place to place.
But the essential doctrines are almost identical and I have never talked with them to make them the same.
Brother Kevin,
I just want to respond to one of your comments and direct you to read Chris's response for everthing else. I do not know Chris but he probably said it better than I could.
The only thing that I want to say is this:
The FOUNDER of the "CHURCH OF CHRIST" was JESUS CHRIST thus the "CHURCH (OF CHRIST)". I did not want anyone reading here to mis-interpret your statement and think that it meant that a MAN founded it.
Re: Worship Options (Kevin Littler) July 29 2003, 12:05 PM
August 13 2003, 6:04 AM
Kevin,
I’m not sure of your familiarity with the men of the Restoration Movement in America. Thomas and Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone and other men of that era, at varying times and locations, coming from varying religious groups, did their studies of the Bible independently of each other. Although there were slight differences among themselves in certain matters, they all had this common ground that there should be ONLY ONE New Testament church that belongs to Christ.
Please don’t doubt that anyone who “simply sat down with the scriptures would come away with the teachings” based on the scriptures. This is evidenced quite frequently by the fact that there have been other similar “restoration” movements in other countries. The results have been the same: the church of Christ was established in Jerusalem (not in Rome, not in America) on the day of Pentecost, when the power of the Holy Ghost was inexplicably, extraordinarily and supernaturally demonstrated (truly charismatic—not by today’s definition). They have come to the same conclusion—in terms of the nature of the church, of its government, of its pattern of beliefs and practices, of the requirements for those who seek salvation according to the gospel plan—just to name a few.
We need to stop thinking about Christ’s church as some form of a club or social/political organization, but rather as a body of Christians, believers and disciples who are added to it, when they have repented and have been baptized in order to: (1) receive forgiveness OF SINS and (2) receive the Holy Spirit’s gift, which is NOT the Holy Spirit itself, but rather is a clear conscience or “when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord” as expressed in Acts 2:38; 3:19.
I agree with you on the importance of our relationship to Jesus, but we must not forget that one cannot begin and be in that relationship until and unless the prospective believer has fulfilled the requirements of entrance into His kingdom by first becoming a CHRISTIAN, according to the scriptures. I also agree with you that the believers are then guided by the holy Spirit, but NOT because of what we hear as the “call” or the “whisper,” but through God’s revealed word—which is also how the Spirit dwells in us.
Keep in mind that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 does not mean the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is simply “refreshing” coming “from the presence of the Lord” when salvation is obtained. If we can get that straight in our minds, we will come to the conclusion that the indwelling is not of the Holy Spirit “person” of the godhead. The Spirit is truth. “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is TRUTH” (I John 5:6). Jesus is also the truth. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). This is how a Christian is “SPIRIT-FILLED” (NOT in the modern “charismatic” understanding of being “spirit-filled” meaning verbally, audibly or directly influenced).
It is common knowledge that there is NO UNITY IN THE DIVERSITY OF DENOMINATIONAL BODIES, regardless of movements to unify and regardless of attempted ecumenical movements. So, we must also keep in mind that the church does not consist of a diversity of bodies (if you mean various religious denominations); it is rather a diversity of members with the same mind and judgment within that one body of Christ. “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.” (I Cor. 1:10)
I believe that in order to preserve the unity in the church of our Lord, we must not only resist the CHANGE AGENTS and thwart their subtle schemes to transform the church into something else, but we must also continue to follow God’s commands, principles and guidelines as revealed only in His word.
I have to disagree with you when you say the Holy Spirit is not in us.
I could spit out 30 verses to disput this, but will stick with a few.
The Bible says we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit
1 Corinthians 6:19 states:
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, WHO IS IN YOU, whom you have from God, and you are not your own.
Ephesian 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also, HAVING BELIEVED, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance,until the redemption of the purchased possesion, to the praise of his glory.
2 Timothy 1:14. States
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
There are many more including those that warn us about rejecting the Holy Spirit.
I would never say the Holy Spirit doesnt dwell in us. The Bible clearly says it does, if we are a true believer.
If you feel the Holy Spirit doesnt dwell in you, you must examine your faith, to see if you are in the faith.
The Word also says "John baptised with water, but I will baptise with the Holy Spirit.
Re: The Promised Holy Spirit (David K.) August 13 2003, 2:15 PM
August 13 2003, 3:24 PM
David,
Just a quick response….
I never did say that the Spirit of God does not dwell in the believer.
I am quoting the verses you listed above:
I Corinthians 6:“[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [19] What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?” (KJV)
Ephesians 1:“[13] In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] WHICH is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.” (KJV)
II Timothy 1:“[14] That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost WHICH dwelleth in us.” (KJV)
David,
I just want to go on record as saying that I DID NOT understand Donnie's statement to mean the same thing that you understood it to mean. Rather than put words in anyone's mouth, I am just going to let Donnie respond. You are right this is a serious issue, a very delicate issue and one that is widely misunderstood.
I think this is the statement in Donnie's response that your reffering to...
Quote by Donnie: "Keep in mind that the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:38 does not mean the Holy Spirit of the Holy Spirit. Rather, it is simply “refreshing” coming “from the presence of the Lord” when salvation is obtained. If we can get that straight in our minds, we will come to the conclusion that the indwelling is not of the Holy Spirit “person” of the godhead. The Spirit is truth. “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is TRUTH” (I John 5:6). Jesus is also the truth. “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6). This is how a Christian is “SPIRIT-FILLED” (NOT in the modern “charismatic” understanding of being “spirit-filled” meaning verbally, audibly or directly influenced)."
Donnie,
Thank you for the reply. I may have misunderstood you, because the old Church where I attended thought the Holy Spirit was in the world only by reading the Bible, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit was the Bible, that He didnt dwell in us, which I disagree with.
I was just concern for I thought thats what you meant. Since it looks like I was wrong I apoligize.
However I do belive the true Holy Spirit is operating in belivers today. Otherwise the scripture John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spririt would not be valid.
Re: Holy Spirit (David K.) August 13 2003, 11:25 PM
August 15 2003, 6:48 AM
David,
I just wanted to clarify myself.
Kevin Littler’s original post titled “Worship Options,” stated in part (among other things): “We as believers are guided by teaching and our relationship to Jesus in the person of the Holy Spirit.” That’s a bothersome thought to me because the Holy Scripture does not say anything about the “person” of the Holy Spirit.
I responded to that comment in part mainly because of the misunderstanding among “charismatic-transformed” members of the church of Christ who believe: (1) that the “gift of the Holy Ghost” in Acts 2:38 refers to the Holy Ghost [itself, dc]; and (2) that the indwelling of the Spirit is in the “PERSON” of the commonly accepted “being” of the “Trinity” and, therefore, would justify a believer’s claim that he is Spirit-filled in that sense, and qualify him to behave “charismatically” [whatever that means] to the point that he “feels the presence of” and expects to hear or listen to “the call” or be “directly influenced by.”
Even in the “contemporary worship” assembly at Madison, [some] leaders and [some] members: (a) express that want for the Holy Ghost’s presence; (b) speak of “following the ‘URGES’ of the Spirit”; (c) sing of “there’s a sweet, sweet spirit IN THIS PLACE [emphasis, dc] … sweet Holy Spirit … stay right here with us … and I know that it’s the presence of the Lord; (d) feel that worship in “spirit” and in truth is more of a “charismatic” experience than of knowing and learning God’s truth; (e) believe that the “church” [as a body] can be Spirit-filled or that the “church” can be “directed by” the Holy Ghost in doing about its mission.
I really just wanted to emphasize that the “gift” of the Holy Ghost (besides forgiveness being received after repentance and baptism) is not the Holy Ghost itself; otherwise the “gift of” would translate as the “Holy Ghost of” the Holy Ghost. Rather, let the parallel passage in Acts 3:19 explain what the gift is—it is a clear conscience resulting from the remission of sins or times of “refreshing” coming from the presence of the Lord.
While I realize that this thread is about “Worship Opinions and Preferences” and that the subject of the “Holy Spirit” is very complex and we are time- and space-bound in discussing it extensively here, we really must question the origin of the doctrine of “Trinity” [cf. Nicene Creed, 325; Council of Constantinople, 381; etc.] [Side note: the “Holy, Holy, Holy” hymn has not been sung during the contemporary worship at Madison in quite a while. Is that because our “version” of the hymn states, “God overall and blest eternally”—instead of “God in three persons, blessed Trinity”?]
Briefly, the “familial” relationship described in the Bible is between “the Father and the Son.” (Of course, the Catholic Church had to come up with the Virgin Mary being the “Mother of God” or the Holy Spirit as the third person in Trinity.)
“I and my Father are ONE.” (John 10:30, KJV) “21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are ONE: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” (John 17, KJV)
There are numerous passages that support the concept that the Holy Spirit is the holy Spirit of God or the holy Spirit of Christ. For example: “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8, KJV).
In addition, the following passages, as well as the one above, say nothing to prove the Holy Spirit being a different [or a third] “person” in the “Trinity”:
Genesis 1:2—“And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.” Other references: Genesis 41:38; I Samuel 10:10; 11:6; 19:20,23; Exodus 31:3; 35:31; 2 Chronicles 15:1; Job 27:3. Other verses speak of the “Spirit of God” in: Matthew 3:16; Romans 8:14; 15:19; I Cor. 2:14. Ephesians 4:30 speaks of grieving not “the holy Spirit of God.” There are other passages.
When I re-quoted your verses (I Corinthians 6:11,19; Ephesians 1:13,14; II Timothy 1:14), I just wanted to emphasize the word “WHICH”—rather than “WHO”—in reference to the Holy Spirit. (At least that’s what the KJV and the ASV render.) I don’t believe we can designate a “gender” in reference to the Holy Spirit [itself] unless we are referring to the Spirit of the Father or of the Son Himself.
It is the holy Spirit of God or Christ that dwells in the believer: Romans 8:9,11; Ephesians 3:17. Colossians 3:16 clearly states that we are to “let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom….” Regardless of how “charismatic” a believer may feel, act or behave, the indwelling of the Spirit of God is not in his life, unless he lets “the word of Christ” dwell in him.
Our readers should be reminded that scholars are POSITIVE that Paul did not speak of the Holy Spirit as a seprated Spirit of God or Spirit of Christ (same thing) as in Romans 7 and 8. Because Paul in 1 Cor. 2 shows that
....The Holy Spirit is to GOD what our spirit is to US.
....OUR spirit and mind mean about the same thing.
...."But WE have the MIND of Christ."
If we are bereft of our MIND or SPIRIT we would be insane or DEAD.
THEREFORE, if God has His Spirit ripped away then God is MINDLESS.
ALL of those who used the word TRINITY absolutey dared anyone to say that God, His Word and His Spirit were ever separated. The most common understanding, also used in the Bible, that GOD (as father) speaks through His WORD (as son) using His BREATH which is the same word as SPIRIT.
The conflict in Romans 7-8 has Paul personifying his FLESH and HIS spirit as being in mortal conflect. His flesh "person" had a mind of its own and fought against his spirit "person" and the OUTWARD man often won. I think this shows that if the worship is with the FLESH we will see just what is subverting the SPIRIT which Jesus said was the WORD.
I Corinthians 6:"[11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [19] What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?" (KJV)
The Spirit OF God, again, is to GOD what our spirit is to US. God's SPIRIT is the MIND of CHRIST and the meaning of SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek and in the secular literature is the MENTAL DISPOSITON of a peson or Being. If Paulhad said BY THE HOLY SPIRIT and the SPIRIT is a third and junior member of the Family of God, then the FATHER person is left out. However, I have the spirit of my father when I find myself thinking and acting like my father. We noted that many Greek and non-cannonical writings speak of someone having A holy spirit or A bitter spirit. Walter Scott says that the GIFT is receiving sanctification (holy) or A holy spirit. Qualities like MIND and SPIRIT and FEAR are often personified in the ancient world. "My stomach is driving me crazy" knowing that my stomach doesn't ATTACK me like a "person."
God is Holy Spirit where "holy" means PURE or WHOLLY SPIRIT without flesh and blood but this does not prevent Him from having the THINKING faculties which we identify as MIND or SPIRIT. However, God is never separated from His WORD and HIS "breath" or spirit. To make us holy or "washed" enough to enter into the Most Holy Place where we meet God one at a time in quietness and darkness, and because we are animate and not a pot or pan, God must give us a SPIRIT which only He can sanctify or "certify" as holy enough to come before His throne of Grace. Because God is the ONE UNIQUE HOLY SPIRIT, if He gave you ONE THIRD of Himself He would no longer be GOD. That is why the Father and Spirit dwelling in Jesus Christ meant that HE was full Deity. You cannot have that SAME Spirit literally living in your CARNAL BODY without also being GOD. Therefore, a believer enjoys total joy to know that they are looking in the Word as glass and turning into the image of Christ in mind or spirit. A holy spirit then controls an otherwise unholy body.
...And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for "A" good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21
Paul, whom Peter warned you of, used many figures of speech in the same way that Jesus used parables
......Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 1 Cor 6:15
Well, we know, don't we that OUR flesh is not part of the body of Jesus as flesh. Being members of Christ means that we have the SPIRIT OF CHRIST and have been added to the church which is HIS BODY. We are regenerated so that out old natural "spirit" is CAPABLE of entering into communion with God.
Jesus Christ is called the HEAD of the church. Therefore, the SPIRIT OF CHRIST directs the body only when the body listens to the SPIRIT OF CHRIST through His words which enters into OUR head or mind or spirit.
.....What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 1 Cor 6: 16
Well, we know don't we that however intimate we become, we are NOT part of the flesh of the harlot. Paul is showing that we MERGE our natures with whatever or whomever we give ourselves to. We think like a harlot and have the MENTAL DISPOSITON and body of a harlot.
.....But he that is JOINED unto the Lord is ONE spirit. 1 Cor 6: 17 [the HEAD of the church concept again]
Well, we know, don't we that being joined to the Lord DOES NOT MEAN that WE are part of the Holy Spirit 'person..' We are ONE SPIRIT just the way two who think alike are of ONE SPIRIT. That is why Paul identified the sole way to GLORIFY GOD would be for the total body to have ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH and teach one another with "that which is written" by the Spirit of Christ. That is the ONLY way to worship God in the SPIRIT. If we deliberately toss away His WORD in song and sermon then we are ONE SPIRIT with the "worship leader."
Peter said that if we give heed to the prophetic Word we are transformed into the IMAGE OF CHRIST or "the Day Star arises in our heart." That is why at judgment we will be tested by our loyalty to the SPIRIT OF CHRIST which He claimed was His WORD. We don''t know how we are transformed but the WORD OF CHRIST is the only thing Scripture assigns the power to become CHRIST LIKE. I don't know about singers and clappers during GIVING HEED to the Death of Christ because MUSIC is in the realm of LUCIFER. I suspect that he will look at the MARK on the forehead and know that they did not GROW in Christ and are NOT QUALIFIED to live in a SPIRIT realm.
.Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his OWN body. 1 Cor 6: 18
....What? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which YE HAVE of GOD, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6: 19
We have noted that the gift OF the Holy Spirit is the gift which Christ the Spirit gives to us: that is our own spirit MADE HOLY as a gift from God. OUR holy spirit is our CLEAR CONSCIENCE which is the NEW MAN the GIFT of God. Because, Christ as God died like a common criminal to PURCHASE us, we are NOT our own. That also means that we are not OUR OWN when we deliberately sow discord to fracture the ONE BODY. Those who have the Spirit of God in them cannot mock Jesus all over again as we remember His DEATH.
LOOK BACK AGAIN AT VERSE 15
......Know ye not that your bodies are the MEMBERS of CHRIST?
......shall I then take the MEMBERS of Christ,
.......and make them the MEMBERS of an harlot? God forbid. 1 Cor 6:15
We are NOT LITERALLY fleshly joined to the flesh body of Christ. We are members of His Spiritual body, the church of Christ (the body ought to wear the name of the HEAD, don't you think?).
....For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in "YOUR" body, and in "YOUR" spirit, WHICH ARE Gods. 1 Cor 6: 20
If MY spirit belongs to God it is because HE has made it holy because we REQUESTED it from God at the time and place of water baptism. No other event promises this GIFT.
Again, A holy spirit is OUR spirit which belongs to God because Christ purchased our spirits and sanctified them "by the washing of water by the Word." Our spirits are daily "washed" by the WORDS of Christ which He said are SPIRIT and LIFE.
One who has the SPIRIT of Christ dwelling in the heart BY FAITH thinks and acts like Christ. One who CLAIMS to be GOD INCARNATE by having the "literal" Spirit living in their literal bodies are most often moved to SOW DISCORD and commit spiritual fornication and tear apart the body in the MINDS with AN unholy spirit because they CLAIM the same INCARNATIONAL status as Jesus Christ.
Be careful with Paul who, as we have noted of scholars, DOES NOT separate the HOLY SPIRIT person from the WORD or THOUGHT. The Spirit is the Spirit OF Christ which is to God what OUR spirit is to US.
Therefore, we should be careful about using the almost unique views of Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly in separating the Godhead into a Family of Gods. That, according to all church history, adds up to being POLYTHEISTIC. And that, too, is very serious. No literate trinitarian would believe that.
I though I saw an answer here that is not unique to the Church of Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 (KJV)
The like figure whereunto even Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away the filth of the flesh,
but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Christ.
You seemed to say this is an appeal "for" a good conscience. Or to appeal to God "for" a good conscience.
If I am wrong correct me.
It is very clear to me it is an answer "from" a good conscience, or the resonse that would be expected from someone who answers God "from" a good conscience.
Also with respect to the Holy spirit,
John 14: 26, John 15:26 and John 16:7 are all
clear indications that the Holy Spirit would come as a Helper to teach all things, to testify of Christ as the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father.
John 16:7 was very specific: Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
When it says I will send Him to you "Him" is capitalized. A good conscience or our conscience would not be capitalized. Also "Helper" and "Spirit" as in Spirit of Truth are capitalized. By Him, Helper, and Spirit being capitalized indicates the Helper being the Holy Spirit.
Not a good conscience.
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,
longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance.
I sure agree it doesnt mean you jump up and down and act a certain way, but instead if influenced by the true Spirit you are a certain way.
I can say for sure in my life to have these qualities show a "direct influence" of the Spirit, for by the nature of man we are the opposite of these things.
I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jn 14:18
To those who obeyed, Christ would return so that both Father and Son would dwell within believers to the extent that they obey Him or keep His commandments. Christ as Holy Spirit guided the Apostles into all truth and caused them to remember what He had Personally taught them. The Apostles understood their task as middlemen: delivering the Word as it had been taught to them. Our task is to hear God speaking to us just as surely as a foreign nation hears our President through his ambassadors.
And Paul wrote:
.."My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until CHRIST be FORMED in you, Gal 4:19
...."Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGEledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:13
To bring forth fruit to Christ is symbolized by children who are the result of a marriage:
.."Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be MARRIED to another, even to him who is RAISED from the dead, that we should bring forth FRUIT unto GOD. Ro.7:4
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Jn 15:3
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot BEAR FRUIT of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide IN ME. Jn.15:4
I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much FRUIT: for WITHOUT ME ye can do nothing. Jn.15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Jn 15:6
If ye abide in me, and my WORDS abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Jn 15:7
Being filled with the FRUITS of righteousness, which are BY JESUS CHRIST, unto the glory and praise of God. Ph.1:11 (You see, O silly man, fruits plural is ok with God)
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be BARREN nor UNFRUITFUL in the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2Pe 1:8
THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT IS THE FRUIT OF CHRIST THE "SON" AND GOD THE "FATHER" BECAUSE the NAME of Father, Son and Spirit in the so-called "baptismal formula" has one name (singular) it is Jehovah- Saves.
THERE IS NO OTHER NAME and it is dangerous to CUT UP the Godhead like a PECAN PIE and claim for one piece what is ALWAYS attributed to the GODHEAD Which is not THREE PERSONS.
DIVIDE AND CONQUER is the way to defeat God. Don't let anyone DIVIDE the Godhead. With minor and different context in the past, MAX LUCADO and RUBEL SHELLY are the fathers of a neo-TRINITARIANISM which is so radical that none of the people who believed in the trinity every saw the Godhead as three "people." In fact, "person" was really "personae" and defined the complex nature of God as more than a PUFF of wind (spirit).
Rather, He is Father of the Thought, the spokeb Word and the Breath or spirit which projects the Word. God always had his "Word" and "Wisdom" with Him.
A CHRISTIAN must believe that God "materialized" as Jesus of Nazareth. This proves that to be approved of the God of the universes He just wants to to be what the Old Testament always bound up or "hangs" everything on PERSONAL RIGHTE LIVING and THE PRACTICE OF SOCIAL JUSTICE. If we try to "leap frog" the will of Christ who left his Throne to minister, and do magic to ASCEND up to the Godhead (what many simple minded preachers are pushing) they deny that CHRIST who was and is God, imaged Himself as the humblest of SERVANTS. John Mark Hicks warns that Lucado and Shelly seem to deny the FULLY HUMANITY of Jesus. Of course, if true, this defines the Anti-Christ.
God sends His ARM as well as His SPIRIT and other "personified" body parts. It is important to build on the foundation of the PROPHETS. Throughout the Bible it is prophesied that God will appear to mankind before the final days. Because God CANNOT be defined to the human mind, He makes Himself known in the ways He works. As WORD, God Himself spoke the world's into existance: the Words came out of His MOUTH by His BREATH which is His SPIRIT. The carnal MIND cannot grasp the message "Hidden in parables from the foundation of the world" because God only speaks to those who will hear Him in His Word.
"We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for JUDGMENT, but there is none; for SALVATION, but it is far off from us. Isaiah 59: 11
..Hamah (h1993) haw-maw'; a prim. root [comp. 1949]; to make a loud sound (like Engl. "hum")
....Huwm (g1949) hoom; a prim. root [comp. 2000]; to make an uproar, or agitate greatly: - destroy, move, make a noise, put, ring again.
For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; Isaiah 59: 12
..In transgressing and lying against the Lord, and departing away from our God, speaking OPPRESSION and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood. Isaiah 59: 13
....And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Isaiah 59: 14
......Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey. And the Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. Is 59:15
..And he saw that there was NO MAN, and wondered that there was no INTERCESSOR: therefore his ARM brought salvation unto him; and his RIGHTEOUSNESS, it sustained him. Is 59:16
God then laid aside His garments of glory and majesty (1Ti 3:16) and put on the garments of truth and righteousness:
.."For he PUT ON righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak. Is 59:17
...."According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, FURY to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompense. Is 59:18
.."So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. Is 59:19
....And the REDEEMER shall come to Zion, and unto them that TURN from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. Isa 59:20
As for me, this is my COVENANT with them, saith the Lord;
....My SPIRIT that is UPON thee, and
....My WORDS which I have put in thy mouth,
.....shall not depart out of thy MOUTH, nor out of the MOUTH of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and FOR EVER. Is 59:21
The symbol of the Spirit was not a singing, dancing fellow: it was a DOVE or known as the ROCK PIGEON. It was a CARRIER OF KNOWLEDGE on the Ark.
The parallel passage from chapter 11: Rather than God's ARM, the BRANCH will have the SEVEN SPIRITS of KNOWLEDGE or WORD resting on Him. The SPIRIT AS the Word is parallel to the SPIRIT in seven forms of SPIRITUAL KNOWLEDGE. The BRANCH is the MENORAH of seven lamps:
..AND there shall come forth a ROD out of the STEM of Jesse, and a BRANCH shall grow out of his roots: Isa 11:1
....And the SPIRIT OF the Lord shall REST upon him, the spirit OF wisdom and understanding, the spirit OF counsel and might, the spirit OF knowledge and OF the fear of the Lord; Isa 11:2
......And shall make him OF quick understanding (Spiritual, mental, the MIND OF CHRIST is the Holy Spirit) in the FEAR of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the SIGHT of his EYES, neither reprove after the HEARING of his EARS: Isa 11:3
He's not LOOKING, fellas. He's not LISTENING fellows. He judges in and with His Spirit and not with EXTERNAL superstitious rituals. His primary judgment is AGAINST those who oppose the poor and widow in "tithes and offerings."
Jesus said and I would not want to challenge Him:
"It is the spirit that QICKENETH; the flesh profiteth NOTHING: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they ARE SPIRIT, and they are LIFE. John 6:63
The SYNAGOGUE which Jesus promised to build and DID BUILD is so tiny that you cannot see it. Jesus said "don't look for it: the kingdom of God is within you." Its outworking has validy ONLY in connection with the Word: even the Lord's Supper is to show forth or PREACH the death of Christ. Paul's word for assembly is always a type of the word for synagogue.
Here is the purpose in Ephesians:
"Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the GENTILES the unsearchable riches of Christ; Eph 3:8
..And to make ALL MEN see what is the FELLOWSHIP of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by JESUS CHRIST: Eph 3:9
....To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places MIGHT BE MADE KNOWN by the church the MANIFOLD WISDOM of GOD, Eph 3: 10
......According to the ETERNAL PURPOSE which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: Eph 3: 11
You cannot preach Word- denying sermons and sing MOCKING songs and begin to grasp the spiritual POWER of the Word. When it is read by people unrelated to our civilization they FEEL the power and are LIBERATED with a new spirit when they just do what Scripture says.
.."But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to BEHAVE (have conversation) thyself in the HOUSE (temple) of God, which is the church (ekklesia, SYNAGOGUE) of the living God,
....the PILLAR and GROUND (sedentary, settled) of the TRUTH. 1 Tim 3:15
We worship in the PLACE of the human spirit which has been qualified or made into A holy spirit. In our spirits we GIVE HEED to the Word. If this is NOT the case then church is a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT but is not the SYNAGOGUE which Jesus promised to build.
We were "Navigated by the Winds" of Lynn Anderson, Shelly etal and turned church into a WORSHIP CENTER with "new style song books." Now, we are reaping the whirlwinds because we HAVE NEVER been taught to worship IN the PLACE of the human spirit as we meet God who is "wholly" Spirit and GIVE HEED to HIS Word. those who have rejected the WORD are TURNED LOOSE by God to work out the unseemly nature of their evil spirits.
See the following link to show that our NEW STYLE WORSHIP is the natural PRODUCT of word-rejecting pseudo-scholars.
Notice that God is defined as I AM and never as WE ARE:
Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) the KING of Israel, and his REDEEMER the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts; I AM the FIRST, and I am the LAST; and BESIDE me there is no God (Elohim). Isa 44:6
......And the REDEEMER shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord (Jehovah). Is.59:20
Jehovah is often a hyphented name: Jehovah- Saves or Jehovah- Redeemer (Gaal) are NOT two Jehovahs. The "father" of the Branch in Zechariah is Jehovah- Righted.
The Lord of Israel is both King and Redeemer: He is FIRST and LAST. If we could "see" God we would not see TWO persons. Zachariah prophesied that the BRANCH would be BOTH king and priest on ONE THRONE and there would be harmony between them "Both." God sends as His REDEEMER His Right HAND but we do not see an Armless God and a separated ARM. A Being and His arm are never separated. The Hebrew word for beside is:
..Biladey (h107) bil-ad-ay'; or baladey bal-ad-ay'; constr. plur. from 1077 and 5703; not till, i. e. (as prep. or adv.) except, without, besides: - beside, not (in), save, without
....1077 means nothing, not at all, NOTHING.
....5703 means perpetuity.
H. Leo Boles, GA, Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly and THEREFORE too many have subscribed to the totally heretical view that God is THREE INDEPENDANT PERSONS. The "trinity" NEVER meant that. This family can stand side by side or face to face, converse, form a committee, exist as a family (so they don't get lonely) and have different skills.
...However, the God of the cast- away- Bible WAS NOT AWARE of the other TWO who are EQUALLY Gods. That makes the latter day prophets WISER than God or the most dangerous men on earth.
..Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not "I" told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even MY witnesses. Is there a God (Elowah) BESIDE ME? yea, there is NO GOD (Rock); I KNOW NOT ANY. Is.44:8
..Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: WHO hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I THE Lord (Jehovah)? and there is NO GOD ELSE beside me; a just GOD "AND" a SAVIOR; there is NONE BESIDE me. Is.45:21
..Yet I AM the LORD (Jehovah) thy GOD (Elohim) from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know NO GOD (El) but ME: for there is NO SAVIOR ("Jesus") beside me. Ho.13:4
There are many Els or ELOHIM. However, Jehovah is the only TRUE Elohim. But, there were NOT two other Els standing BESIDE God when He (the Word) created the Worlds with NO ONE BESIDE HIM. There simply is NO SPACE between the Jehovah-hyphenated works of the ONE Elohim.
Savior is Yasha: He is both KING and SAVIOR but not twins:
..Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy KING cometh unto thee: he is JUST, and having SALVATION; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec.9:9
JOHN SAID OF THIS GOD:
..IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God. John 1:1
....The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:2
......ALL THINGS were made by him; and WITHOUT him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3
This does not mean that the OTHERS created the world but NOT WITHOUT the Word. No, BESIDES means the same as in the Hebrew. There was NO other God standing APART FROM the Word to give rise to the FAMILY OF GODS making the claim of many who call themselves churches of Christ but making their witness null and void. This was not the view of the Restoration leaders or church history: it is almost unique to a branch of churches of Christ.
Beside is:
..Choris (g5565) kho-rece'; adv. from 5561; at A SPACE, i.e. separately or APART FROM (often as prep.): - beside, BY ITSELF, without.
....5561 means "empty expanse" or "a space of territory" including its inhabitants. Therefore, you CANNOT force THREE PERSONS because THERE IS NO SPACE for "them to fit."
Give it up or keep praising the HOLY SPIRIT PERSON as a separated being and you REPUDIATE the Old Testament Jehovah (never seen as triplets) and Christ of the Bible. The CORE GOSPEL allows only 7 facts ABOUT Jesus to survive out of all of the Bible. That CLEARLY repudiates the TEACHINGS of Christ the Spirit in the Old Testament and the Christ as SPIRIT Incarnated (father, son and spirit) of the New Testament and all of church history. The "baptismal" formula says that Father, Son and Spirit has ONLY ONE NAME. Paul said that FULL DEITY dwelled in Jesus Christ (Col 2:9)
It puts you out on a limb supported almost exclusively by Max Lucado and Rubel Shelly and those led astry by "Sunday School Material."
Give it some thought: My God is not cut up like a Texas Pecan Pie. Sorry about yours. I truly shudder.
DAVID: A couple of Responses. August 14 2003, 12:20 PM
I though I saw an answer here that is not unique to the Church of Christ.
1 Peter 3:21 (KJV) The like figure whereunto even Baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), by the resurrection of Christ.
You seemed to say this is an appeal "for" a good conscience. Or to appeal to God "for" a good conscience.
------------
Yes, that is what the Greek world would understand.
This is a NIVISM:
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the PLEDGE [or RESPONSE] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21
This would have US pledging what amounts to A holy spirit to God.
Webster: Pledge: 1. The condition of being given or held as security for a contract, payment, etc
Max Lucado teaches that we are saved by CALLING GOD FATHER. However, baptism is OUR pledge that we "will be good boys."
The word translated PLEDGE in the NIV is not translatable from the Greek which is:
Eperotema (g1906) ep-er-o'-tay-mah; from 1905; an INQUIRY: - answer. [Answer is old: we have a different view]
Eperotao (g1905) ep-er-o-tah'-o; from 1909 and 2065; to ASK for, i.e. inquire, SEEK: - ask (after, questions), DEMAND, DESIRE, question.
Erotao (g2065) er-o-tah'-o; appar. from 2046 [comp. 2045]; to interrogate; by impl. to REQUEST: - ask, BESEECH, desire, intreat, pray. Comp. 4441.
....Then one of them, which was a lawyer, ASKED him a QUESTION, tempting him, and saying, Mt.22:35
....And if they will learn any thing, let them ASK their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co.14:35
When you went to the MUSICAL ORACLES such as that of the Python (Serpent) or DIVINING SPIRIT you ask in a different way. However, this definion reinforces EROTAO:
Punthanomai (g441) poon-than'-om-ahee; mid. prol. from a prim.putho, (which occurs only as an alt. in certain tenses); to question, i.e. ascertain by inquiry (as a matter of information merely; and thus differing from 2065, which prop. means A REQUEST AS A FAVOR
Here are some examples:
..The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21KJV
However, the definition of words and other versions prove that it is at the time and place of water baptism that we ASK for God to give us a clean conscience which is the gift of A holy spirit.
..And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an APPEAL to God for a good conscience-- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21NAS
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the APPEAL of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21RSV
The word ANSWER is somewhat like CALL AND RESPONSE. Christ CALLS to us or appeals to us by his PURCHASE. We answer or APPEAL to him for what He has offered. Baptism is the time and place where we CALL UPON GOD. Since is is a REQUEST it is dishonest to blame us for claiming our reward for work done. It is also dishonest for Calvinists to claim their REWARD for being predestinated.
..(That, by the way, is what baptism pictures for us: In baptism we show that we have been saved from death and doom by the resurrection of Christ;[c]
....not because our bodies are washed CLEAN by the water but because in being baptized
....we are turning to God and ASKING him to CLEANSE our HEARTS from sin.) 1 Peter 3:21LIV
Paul's use of the word ANSWER in 3:15 was:
Apologia (g627) ap-ol-og-ee'-ah; from the same as 626; a plea ("apology"): - answer (for self), CLEARING of SELF, defence.
Peter's use of
..Eperotema (g1906) ep-er-o'-tay-mah; from 1905; an INQUIRY: - answer.
....CANNOT mean that at baptism we CLEAR OURSELF or CERTIFY that we were cleansed before the "washing."
The problem is just old words. However, the NIV used PLEDGE only in this baptism passage. Each time the text says: "He ASKED for water" it WOULD HAVE translated it: "He PLEDGED for water." They KNOW that there is nothing in the family of words Peter used which can be translated as PLEDGE.
A clear conscience is A holy spirit which is A new mind or inner person. We get that by Grace: asking God for it. A clear conscience is NOT something which we can PLEDGE just because we TRUST that we have been PREDESTINATED to heaven. How do FAITH ONLY People know that they are NOT predestinated to hell? Water Baptism is the ASSURANCE that you have asked Christ for something he PROMISED to all of us who REQUEST it.
That is what about everyone thought prior to Zwingli in 1525 who said that ALL SCHOLARS who lived prior to him were JUST WRONG.
A little over 2000 years ago that was Nicodemus response to Jesus when he explained that he must be
"born again" of the spirit.
It seems that as a learned man Nicodemus couldn't grasp this and learned men today cant seem to either.
When he said to Christ "How can a man be born again when he is old? ". John 3:4
Jesus replied:
"Verily, verily I say unto thee,
unless a man is born of water
and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." Jn. 3:5
"That which is born of flesh is flesh;
and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit. Jn. 3:6
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, "Ye must be born
again" Jn 3:7
"The wind bloweth where it will, and though
hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell
whence it cometh or wither it goeth: so is
everyone who is born of the Spirit."
Of course all my live I had heard the phrase in
Jn 3:5 paraphrased into "you must be born again of
the water and the Spirit". This wasnt in any way
the intent of the Text.
Jesus explained in the simplest way what being
born of water is and being born of the Spirit is.
To be born of water is to be born in the flesh
which all men are "that which is flesh is flesh".
To be born of the spirit, is to be born again.
"That which is Spirit is Spirit".
The Church of Christ's I have attended have
twisted this scripture verse every single time
I have heard it. They said to be born of water
is to be Baptized, and in this Biblical text
it simply doesnt mean that, but instead it
is used to clarify the difference in flesh
and Spirit.
Nicodemus didnt get it at that moment and
many a learned man still doesn't
Re: "How can these things be" (by David K.) August 15 2003, 6:20 PM
August 18 2003, 6:04 AM
David,
You’ve gotten me curious when you say: “The Church of Christ's I have attended have twisted this scripture verse every single time I have heard it. They said….”
Did you mean that you have attended a number of congregations of the church of Christ at various locations? What did you mean by “they said”? Was this in the past, implying that you had been a member of the church of Christ and that you’re no longer a member of the same? <