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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.70.52

"Abraham's Two Sons" by John Waddey

November 12 2005, 1:56 PM 

In his letter to the Galatians, Paul cites the story of Abraham's two sons, Ishmael and Isaac. He finds in that story a likeness of Christianity and Judaism (Gal. 4:21-31).

Ishmael was a child of the flesh. God had nothing to do with his conception. He was undisciplined. He was like a wild ass (Gen. 16:12). He had no part in the things of God or the promises God had made to his father, Abraham (Gen. 16:18-19). He mocked and persecuted Isaac, the child of promise (Gen. 21:10). God rejected Ishmael.

Isaac, on the other hand, was a child of promise. He grew up to be a man of faith, hope and obedience. He was blessed of God (Gen. 17:21) and carried the sacred promise through his life and passed it to his son Jacob (Gen. 27:27-30).

So in the church today, we see that God has two kinds of children. There are children of faith like Isaac. They love God's Son and honor his Word by compliance thereto (John 15:14). They love and appreciate His holy church. They stand up and defend her from her enemies (Phil. 1:16). They are loyal Christians and labor to keep their heritage and hope alive.

There are children of the flesh. Like Ishmael, they are carnal, worldly souls. Rather than appreciate the church, they despise the way she was when they were born into her family. They blush not to lay profane hands on her doctrine and worship to change them in ways that will please them. They court the favor of the world (I John 2:15-17). They malign and accuse the faithful children of God who seek to honor the will of the Father. They are sometimes known as change agents. If these children of the flesh prevail, Christ's church will become man's church. God's worship will become will-worship. Gospel preaching will become a gospel-pep rally and entertainment session. May God deliver us from Ishmael's kindred.

John Waddey

 
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allen coffman
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69.254.88.97

don't change the text to get the change agents

November 12 2005, 10:51 PM 

Chapter 21 actually shows God taking care of Ishmael.

20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer.

I don't read that as God turning his back on a profane brother.

I have to say "swing and a miss" on this version of the gospel according to John.

allen

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.67.52

Examine the Allegory

November 13 2005, 11:45 AM 

In his attempt to debunk John Waddey, Dr. Coffman would have us believe that Waddey deliberately alters biblical text in order to condemn the change agents. If Waddey did that, then he would be no better than the change agents themselves, who frequently alter, twist, or ignore biblical text to suit their own agenda. Waddey stated that "God rejected Ishmael." Yet Coffman would have us believe that Waddey altered Gen. 21:20 to state that God physically "turned his back on" (abandoned) Ismael. Waddey did nothing of the sort. Friends, Waddey is batting in home runs here. In the passages from Genesis and Galatians that Waddey cites, it is clear that God chose Isaac as the child of promise over Ishmael, which is clear evidence of God's spiritual rejection of Ishmael as the child of promise, and Coffman knows that.

In Gal. 4:21-31 (KJV), Paul uses the Genesis account of Ishmael and Isaac as an allegory (verse 24) to illustrate two covenants which were at odds with each other: the covenant of promise to Abraham through Isaac, ultimately fulfilled in Christ; and the covenant of bondage, the Mosaic Law, which Paul personifies here as Hagar and Ishmael. Paul’s point is that Christians cannot follow two opposing laws or covenants. He says, “Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman, So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free” (Gal. 4:30-31 KJV).

A similar allegory easily applies to the Church today, as John Waddey clearly illustrated. We have two principles at odds with each other: the Change Movement and the New Testament. The Change Movement can be likened to “he that was born after the flesh”; that is, Ishmael. Selectively ignoring or altering portions of the New Testament, this carnal movement makes the Church more like the world in order to fill pews with warm bodies who desire a user-friendly, believe-anything-you-want religion with self-gratification, casual attitudes, and entertainment in their worship. Those who follow the New Testament and Jesus’ commands as written can be likened to the children of promise. As Paul says, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise” (Gal. 4:28 KJV). The promise that Paul refers to is the resurrection to eternal life in Christ to those who believe on and obey Christ and the New Testament.

Neither John Waddey nor the Bible ever said that God physically "turned his back" on Ishmael. But God spiritually rejected the latter as the child of promise. That's a fact. Therefore, we cannot afford to reject God’s commands in the New Testament by following the Change Movement, lest we, too, find ourselves rejected as the children of promise.

 
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PPB
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70.116.84.97

Re: don't change the text to get the change agents

November 13 2005, 7:02 PM 

Allen Coffman,

Yes, God kept his promise to take care of Ishmael but that did not mean he was blessing him or his lifestyle. If you go back to chapter 16, you will find that God promised he would be a man against men (turbulent, rude, war like behavior). He is the forefather of the Arabs. The very ones who have been at war with the Jews for generations. I don't think that is exactly a blessing to have created such an angry nation - known in history and the OT for their brutality.

You see, Ishmael was born because Abraham failed to trust in the Lord when he promised that he would have a son. Abraham and Sarah got tired of waiting for God's promise and they used Hagar as a surrogate mother. This was not an uncommon practice but it was not an authorized one, either. If you read about how it took place, it is very uncomfortable for all three participants, and yes, the process included the husband and both wives.

God did make a nation out of Ishmael like he promised both Abraham and Hagar, but it was not the Jewish nation. Eventually, the two nations became the most bitter of enemies. Would you call that a good thing? Do you think that God was with the Arabs and their pagan religions? If he was not with them, was he against them? I believe other books in the OT and NT tell us what happened between the two nations and God was definitely against the Arab nation.

 
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allen coffman
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69.241.130.169

No disrespect to Bro Waddey

November 16 2005, 12:11 AM 

I just think that he took the allegory a little far.

The example of Abraham in Gal 4 is not just a simple doctrinal squabble. It is the basic element of the Gospel. Have we chosen to trust God's plan for our lives in Christ(Isaac through Sarah) or our own plan seperate from Christ(Ishmael through Hagar). Do you trust God with every element of your life? This is the path that leads to freedom, righteousness and fruit of the Spirit. Or, do you hold out parts of your life for your own control? Whether it be religious tradition (circumcision) or refusing God's righteous life. This is the path tht leads to judgement by the Law outside of the justification of Christ.

As we go forward we must challenge all brothers to look to Christ and live a life of faith. Encouraging each other to trust God through Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit in all things.

How can those who are not known to God overtake Christ's church? How can we not be singular about following Christ and pointing others to Him? How can the fragrant aroma of the fruit of God' Spirit be sucombed by any creation of man?

I felt Bro. Waddey's piece was a over extention of an important Biblical example to stab at the ghostly boogie man change agent.

Instead let's be encouraged because I and Bro Waddey and Dr. Crump and PBB have chosen to seek after God's plan in Christ. We have received freedom from sin and are not enslaved to the law. Let's also encourage others.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery

If we stand firm in Christ, no one will be able to take the focus from Him in our lives, our families, our communities or our churches.

allen

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.125.205

Are Change Agents Just Imaginary, "Ghostly Boogie Men"?

November 16 2005, 1:50 PM 

Dr. Coffman: “I felt Bro. Waddey's piece was a over extention [sic] of an important Biblical example to stab at the ghostly boogie man change agent.”

Dr. Crump: Coffman’s statement implies that the “change agent,” like the boogie man, is a figment of an overactive imagination. Or at least the change agent is a most harmless entity and deserves no condemnation. Many would have us believe that the change agent as “bogey” is merely the creation of superstitious, legalistic Christians who read too much into the Bible, who take the Bible much too seriously, and who cannot accept the modern premise that the Gospel and the Bible must be changed and made culturally relevant for the younger generation, lest the latter reject Christianity as being “boring” and “not fun.” That is, we shouldn’t be too concerned about the harmless, “ghostly boogie man change agent.” If I were a change agent, I definitely wouldn’t want folks to pay much attention to me, so I could more easily change the Church behind their backs unimpeded.

It’s been said that the greatest trick Satan ever pulled was to convince the world that he didn’t exist. Thus, many liberal Christians run around espousing that there is no hell, that a loving merciful God could never damn someone to an eternal, fiery hell. Such liberals ignore the New Testament’s promise of hell to the impenitent unbeliever. Likewise, the greatest trick that the change agents ever pulled was to convince Christians that they also don’t exist, that no one would really ever take over a church and change it to satisfy man’s carnal desires, thereby sending that church in a direction opposite to that directed by Christ. Thus regarding change agents as imaginary, gullible and undiscerning Christians cease their vigil for the proverbial wolves in sheep’s clothing, while the all-too-real change agents work under cover unimpeded. Thanks to Christians’ apathy and slothfulness and the work of the supposedly “imaginary” change agents, many churches have become institutions having the look and feel of worldly performing arts centers and amusement theme parks. They are the churches that have fallen away from the New Testament standard by becoming friends with the world and espousing a different, "user-friendly gospel" from that presented in the New Testament (Romans 12:2, James 4:4, and 2 John 9-11 KJV).

As long as folks hide their heads in the sand and fail to combat the unscriptural influences and agenda of very real change agents, churches remain vulnerable targets for unscriptural change.

 
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allen coffman
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69.241.130.169

Can change agents defeat Christ?

November 17 2005, 10:04 PM 

Again I will reiterate that we can not distract from the gospel by seeking to root out the change agents instead of seeking after Christ. I would state that anyone is an agent of darkness if they distract us from the light.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery

If we stand firm in Christ, no one will be able to take the focus from Him in our lives, our families, our communities or our churches.

If we truly love, we will recommit ourselves to sacrificially serving those with whom we may disagree. We must allow our "standard" to become Christ and Christ alone. Instead of distant, impersonal, verbal banter we must model in physical form the grace, love and mercy of God's standard: Christ.



allen

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.125.188

Change Agents Can Lure the Undiscerning Away from Christ

November 18 2005, 12:24 AM 

And again I will reiterate that Christians must remain vigilant for the proverbial wolf in sheep's clothing, i.e. the change agent, who comes with alluring words and smooth talk to steer the undiscerning away from the principles of the New Testament. We may love those with whom we disagree, such as the change agents, but love won't necessarily keep them at bay. Knowledge of what Christ demands of us in the New Testament and recognition of the change agent's false claims are preventives. Satan cannot defeat Christ, yet Satan's influence is ever-present in the world, and Christians must recognize and avoid his wiles, lest they be led astray. Likewise, the change agent is ever-ready to modify the Church into that which Christ has not authorized. The change agent cannot defeat Christ, but his influence can be quite detrimental if Christians do not recognize and reject him.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.66.185

RE: Can Change Agents Defeat Christ?

November 18 2005, 10:01 AM 

Dr. Coffman: "We can not distract from the gospel by seeking to root out the change agents instead of seeking after Christ. I would state that anyone is an agent of darkness if they distract us from the light."

Dr. Crump: Coffman implies that rooting out those who would pervert the Gospel, such as the change agents and other false prophets/teachers, is actually distracting from the Gospel. He implies that being on the alert for such folks wastes our time and detracts from following Christ.

Christ expressed a different view in Matt. 7:15 KJV. Is it a "distraction" from the Gospel to maintain constant vigil against the ravening wolves (change agents/false teachers/false prophets) who would pervert the Gospel? Can't Christians follow Christ and be ever-vigilant as well?

Paul was of like sentiment in Romans 16:17-18 and Gal. 1:6-9 KJV. Is it a "distraction" from the Gospel to mark and avoid those who, through good words and fair speeches, espouse a different doctrine from Christ? Can't Christians follow Christ and be able to recognize (mark) and avoid those who would pervert the Gospel?

John was of like sentiment in 2 John 9-11 KJV. Is it a "distraction" from the Gospel to recognize that those who "transgresseth and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God"? Can't Christians follow Christ and reject the "evil deeds" (John's words) of those who alter Christ's doctrine?

In summary, those who pervert the Gospel today are known by a number of synonymous names. These include "change agent," "false teacher," and "false prophet." The New Testament brands such folks as "ravening wolves," "deceivers," "accursed," and doers of "evil deeds." Pretty strong language against such folks.

Certainly the change agents are "agents of darkness," for they would steer us away from the light of Christ. Yet those who believe that rooting out the change agents distracts from the Gospel (when the New Testament clearly says otherwise) obviously sympathize with the "agents of darkness" and thus are in the same boat.


 
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allen coffman
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69.241.130.169

My point = where is our faith?

November 20 2005, 1:05 AM 

Is our faith in our ability to devine the "change agent" or is it in the redemptive grace of Jesus Christ?

I agree that we can be led astray by others. But Christ doesn't tell us to set out to better define the wicked or sniff them out or build better defenses around our doctrine. He says latter in Matt 7

24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

His words to be put into practice are direct our heart. Are we willing to let Him change us so that He will be evident in our lives? How is the change agent known? By his fruit.

Why do we have to argue about who the change agents are and how they work and define them better for the poor, innocent, suceptible churches in our brotherhood. Because, 1. we are completely self-reliant instead of Christ centered and 2. we aren't producing much fruit.

allen

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.19.69.107

RE: My Point = Where Is Our Faith?

November 20 2005, 7:35 PM 

Dr. Coffman: "Why do we have to argue about who the change agents are and how they work and define them better for the poor, innocent, suceptible [sic] churches in our brotherhood. Because, 1. we are completely self-reliant instead of Christ centered and 2. we aren't producing much fruit."

Dr. Crump: Coffman’s statement has an interesting implication: If we follow Romans 16:17-18 KJV and expose the change agents and others who would pervert the Gospel, we supposedly become “self-reliant instead of Christ-centered.” It is the very change agents themselves who are self-reliant and not Christ-centered. Their very actions say that the pattern that Christ set up in the New Testament is not good enough for all generations after Him and must be modified for each new generation. Note that Christ never said in Matt. 28:20, “Teaching them to adjust and modify all things whatsoever I have commanded you according to the preferences of each succeeding new generation.” If no one is vigilant, if no one is watchful, then the “poor, innocent, susceptible churches in our brotherhood” are easy game for the change agents. Christians must produce good fruit AND be watchful for the change agents.

Dr. Coffman: “Christ doesn't tell us to set out to better define the wicked or sniff them out or build better defenses around our doctrine.”

Dr. Crump: Did Christ tell us to ignore the Gospel just so we can “sniff” out the wicked and conduct a perpetual witch hunt? Matt. 7:15 KJV commands that we be ever-vigilant. The Christ-centered Christian can follow the Gospel AND be ever-vigilant. We must, or be overtaken by the change agents. Now consider the following:

  • Why would a person push the premise that change agents are “ghostly” and imaginary if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • Although change agents cannot defeat God as such, why would a person downplay the fact that change agents can still rip apart and wreak havoc with individual churches, if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • Why would a person believe that rooting out and exposing change agents detracts from following the Gospel, if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • Why would a person argue that by more clearly defining who the change agents are and others who pervert the Gospel, we become self-reliant and not Christ-centered, if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • Why would a person imply that defining change agents weakens our faith in Christ, if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • Why would a person push the premise that a Christian cannot follow Christ AND be watchful for change agents, if that person wasn't sympathetic with the Change Movement?

  • And why would a person readily argue against anyone who condemned the change agents, if that person wasn't highly sympathetic with the Change Movement?

Interesting questions for the discerning.






 
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Ken Sublett
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63.84.81.80

CAST THEM OUT LIKE DUNG: LIKE JESUS DID THE MINSTRELS.

November 18 2005, 1:01 PM 

    Allen Coffman Again I will reiterate that we can not distract from the gospel by seeking to root out the change agents instead of seeking after Christ. I would state that anyone is an agent of darkness if they distract us from the light.
That's a fact: we want to DISTRACT from the changeling-hirelings SO THAT we can recover the GOSPEL which they CANNOT even define.

The FUNDAMENTAL meaning of GOSPEL for we who CANNOT die for our sins is: "Come to ME all ye that labor and are heavy LADEN, and I will give you REST." And of the twos and threes "Come learn of ME" and ME ain't THEE. If you attend a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT or a mega-tower of Babbling you CANNOT be a church or Synagogue of Christ. You CANNOT know the meaning of GOSPEL which is more than seven facts ABOUT Jesus.

Jesus DIED to ROOT OUT the change agents: the burden laded on the backs of the people by the clergy used like pack animals is "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." If we never let them PLANT their roots in the food bank of widows and hard working honest disciples then WE won't have to ROOT them out. Is that about right? If we deprive them ALL of an unlawful "berth on Good Ship PreacherShip" then we will be SURE to get the vipers.

How in the name of minimal common sense can you PREACH the gospel when the ROTOROOTERS are professional sewage manufacturers? THEY claim the authority and USE universities and churches TAKEN CAPTIVE by infiltrating and diverting peaceable churches. So, don't try the psychological violence the HIRELING-CHANGELINGS have as part of their 12 step program to DISSOCIATE everyone by telling them that the one who hoots: "The KINGS have no clothes" are just sowers of discord.
    Allen Coffman It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery
There can be NO slavery without SLAVE MASTERS. That includes ALL staff infection not willing to abandon their CAREER PATH and get rich on selling STRAW -- and GOING out as poor "priests.." If you preach JUST JESUS AND HIM CRUCIFIED then the early historical writings know that you can tell THEM what they don't already know in two or three days. Then, they get you a JOB or get you a TICKET on a working ASS heading to the next town.

What is this SLAVERY you are speaking about? Is it slavery to wake up and grasp that: There is NO law of preaching as an ACT, no Law of Giving other than those who PROSPERED aided the DESTITUTE where POOR parses to "street people." Paul to Timothy to Labor so that HE as a minister (servant) could practice AGAPE which meant that the EVANGELIST fed the POOR.

Is it SLAVERY not to have to PROCURE and tolerate the whiney-piney, sick-sister teatrics knowing that the PREACHER-CREATURE had already ACCEPTED the loss of half of YOUR flock when they DELIBERATELY SOWED DISCORD to steal the church house of widows?

And there assuredly is NO LAW OF SANGING as in making music. The Bible repudiates it from Genesis to Revelation and attributes it to Lucifer who was the Musical Enchanter (snake) in the garden of Eden as the "singing and harp playing prostitute." The hireling-changelings want to STAFF you with the same AGENTS and Alan claims that they want to SET US FREE. If JESUS PAID IT ALL then to WHOM do I owe? Professionals FREE you from knowing the Bible, worshiping in the PLACE of your human spirit, arouse spiritual anxiety which damages before it FEELS GOOD , free you from FREEDOM to be a family without a HIRED "father and husband," and FREE you from ALL of your surplus MONEY and TIME. Did Jesus Die for 'instrumental music" and SLAVERY?
    Allen Coffman If we stand firm in Christ, no one will be able to take the focus from Him in our lives, our families, our communities or our churches.
SURE, the hand flanging, finger pointing, finger snapping, slobber spitting, tippy toe, shouting speaker of BLATHER says I WANTS YOU TO SEE JUS JESUS. Garbage.

Sure, the Praise Team claiming to be MEDIATORS to lead you into the presence of God, singing THEIR OWN WORDS and embarrassing all of the Testosterone crowd and sounding like "hens" crowing say: JUS LOOK AT JESUS: JUS WATCH WHAT I DO AND THEN YOU DO WHAT I DO AND YOU WILL BE WORSHIPING JESUS.

No one is going to believe that ALL professionals DO NOT practice the IDOLATRY OF TALENT. Any fool knows that you CANNOT remotely think abut God or worship in the PLACE of your human spirit in "your closet" when these people are CLAIMING to be IN the holy place (church) or Most Holy Place (our closet) when EVERYONE knows that if a Levitical Warrior musician entered into any of the holy precincts EVEN TO CLEAN OUT THE GARBAGE he would be instantly executed.

People SEE Jesus in food packages, cups of cold water and GIVING money to the widows instead of LYING AND FRYING that they need to obey the LAW OF GIVING and now THE LAW OF TITHING which REPUDIATES the cross of Jesus.
    Allen Coffman If we truly love, we will recommit ourselves to sacrificially serving those with whom we may disagree. We must allow our "standard" to become Christ and Christ alone. Instead of distant, impersonal, verbal banter we must model in physical form the grace, love and mercy of God's standard: Christ.
No, you must have a PhDuh from that college wheres they train you to be a Prophet, Channeller and Facilitator" to go make changes using Feminist Hermeneutics (meaning magica like exegetice).

Those with whom WE disagree are forcing US to sacrifice so THEY can claim in Shelly's theology to be Located Missionaries. You know the new MISSIONAL CHURCH which means CULT which means COMMUNE while people BELIEVE that "missional" means "missionary."

I don't want to SERVE them WITH Or WITHOUT sacrifice. I want them to just GO AWAY and leave the people of Christ FREE to REST for which HE sacrificed. REST means "whatever YOU are doing just STOP IT.' We don't want you to go away MAD: we just want you to have the common decency and minimal ethics to JUST GO AWAY.

The CHRIST AND CHRIST ALONE is one the new but ancient HERESIES. Sorry, but Christ the Spirit is NOT ego-centric. HE DIDN'T just preach the heresy of SEVEN FACTS ABOUT JESUS. It's a bald face lie which I have refuted by many of the hirelings; Paul DID NOT say JUST PREACH Christ and Him crucified. He said that we should KNOW only a crucified Christ. That means that to NOT be a mortal wounder of souls you MUST NOT pretend to be a "minister" when you KNOW that you want to be worshipped like and paid like a MASTER and rule like a master.

If you cannot grasp that KNOW is not PREACH then back to a two hour endorsement on your PhDuh for summer school.

In Second Corinthians Paul laid down the MARK or BRAND and I don't know a single one of those SUFFERING LIKE CHRIST. You know and they know and WE know that PREACHING just Christ means NOT KNOWING a suffering servant and JUST PREACHING the garbage you learn at theillogical cemetary.

Next, I am going to show you the example and DIRECT COMMAND about how to conduct EKKLESIA or SYNAGOGUE or SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. When you have "that which HAS been taught and written" then Paul OUTLAWS private interpretation which outlwas FURTHER EXPOUNDING. Sermonizing as in allegorizing was OUTLAWED in the synagogue. Any school boy could stand up and read the text and have the uncommon decency-like Jesus-to SIT DOWN. OVERSEEING was making sure that the kid read the text correctly. THAT was the direct command to TIMOTHY.

Jesus said that if we KNOW when the THIEF is going to invade our FOOD PANTRY then we would not SUFFER our home to be invaded. Just WHAT do you think Jesus Would do with a THIEF?

Any one who DEFENDS a thief IS a thief and Jesus would HURT you real bad.

 
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Dr. Bill Crump
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66.217.163.124

"Change Agents: A Biblical Profile" by John Waddey

November 26 2005, 4:23 PM 

From the beginning there have been those among Christ's disciples who were not satisfied to abide in the simple system that the Lord inaugurated for this church. Paul mentioned several he had encountered: namely Hymaneaus and Alexander, Phygelus and Hermogenes (I Tim. 1:20; II Tim.15). Jesus cited the Nicolaitans, those who held the teaching of Balaam and that evil woman, Jezebel (Rev. 2:6, 15, 20). Today the church is being troubled by a band of men who have embraced a new and different approach to Christianity. Their faith and practice they borrow from the denominational world. They reject the old standards of the Scripture for new standards that are designed to please 21st century man. They have boldly announced their desire and intent to change the church. The church image they greatly admire is that of Protestant community churches like the Willow Creek Community Church in Illinois or the Saddleback Valley Community Church in California.

The Holy Spirit chose several striking metaphors to describe first century disciples who were not content to abide in the doctrine of Christ (II John 9). Paul called them "enemies of the cross of Christ" (Phil. 3:18). Those who wished to add ordinances of Moses's Law to the message of Christ, he called, "evil workers" (Phil. 3:2). He foresaw disciples who would "fall away from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons" (I Tim. 4:1). They were teachers with seared consciences (I Tim. 4:2). Those who taught a different doctrine than Christ had given, he describes as "puffed up, knowing nothing...men corrupted in mind and bereft of truth" (I Tim. 6:4-5). In his letter to Titus those who disrupted the peace of the church by their teaching and agitations he called "factious" men (Tit. 3:10). Peter called them false prophets and false teachers. They were promoters of "destructive heresies" (II Pet. 2:1). Jude depicts them as hidden rocks in a harbor, lurking beneath the surface, waiting to rip the bottom out of the ship whose steersman thought he had found a safe haven. They are like shepherds, who without fear feed themselves while the flock is torn and scattered. They are like "clouds without water" promising a blessing but delivering nothing (Jude 12). How do you suppose the Spirit views those today who are busy sowing discord throughout the brotherhood and leading disciples away from the simplicity of the gospel?

The Holy Spirit also instructs us how we should deal with those who trouble the family of Christ. We must not allow ourselves to be deceived by them (II Thess. 2:3). We should mark them and turn away from them (Rom. 16:17-18). We should reject them (Tit. 3:10) and refuse their message. We should in no way lend them support or encouragement (II John 9-11). Those who think they can have detente with the agents of change are deceiving themselves. Jesus warned, "Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees" (Matt. 16:6) We must also beware the leaven of the change agents. Like leaven, their doctrine will work silently and unnoticed until they have permeated a sufficient portion of the entire congregation and then they will be in control of the whole. He that hath an ear...let him hear!

John Waddey

 
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Ken Sublett
(Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
184.63.180.96

Re: &quot;Change Agents: A Biblical Profile&quot; by John Waddey

July 10 2015, 4:09 PM 

On page 4 the comment is made:

For 15 years I attended a grace centered Church of Christ in the metroplex,
grace centered meaning that yes Baptism was emphasised, but it was made very clear the Grace of God was imputed by Christ sacrifice, not by our following the "new law" better than the other church's. John Featherston was the preacher.
After he was relieved of his duty as minister I knew changes were in the air.
I had no idea what they were talking about but a new Vision was emphasised and banner calling us the "Family of God" were placed in various places. The attendance has dropped from 1200 on the average Sunday to now about 540 on average. I had no idea what the growth movement was at the time now over 4 years ago, I left that Church, but now looking back I see that the PDC model and Classes are firmly in place there. I knew many people and was sad to leave, but something wasnt right. Emphasis which once was all Biblical, was now more man centered.


Elizabeth asks "What church is this? Do you know where the pastor John Featerston went after leaving this church?

Or Featerstone

anyone? Check Google Never Alone Again by John Featherston

Check Google Never Alone Again by John Featherston

In the search box on the left enter Church of Christ

Married Katy Frymain

http://www.serenitychurch.net/

The colony, Tx
Maybe they will tell you where the preacher went


    
This message has been edited by Ken.Sublett from IP address 184.63.180.96 on Jul 10, 2015 4:20 PM


 
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...........................THE BOOK

What Happened at the Madison Church of Christ?


There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least you will recognize the signs early on.

Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.

Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.

The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan. Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books, seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....

At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the elders went along unwittingly.

This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill in some of the timeline.

To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the background materials in the first of the book.

This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison

Here is the list of players;

5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
 

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