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Kenneth Sublett
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April 10 2003, 3:12 PM 

I have told you over and over and you haven't refuted it that:

Music in a "worship" sense had two Biblical purposes (don't tell me about David strumming to his sheep):

First: The MUSICAL WARRIOR LEVITES were under the King and Commanders of the army and NEVER under the priests were OUTSIDE the Holy Place as a type of the church.

Their SERVICE was "hard bondage" from a word with the same meaning as Abaddon or Apollyon. Because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST as a result of the PERVERTED musicl idolatry at Mount Sinai and later demanding a human king so that they could worship like the nations, their service was quite identical to that of Canaan or Babylon.

That MUSICAL NOISE was exorcism of the bad demons and trying to call the GOOD GODS to the feast. Catholics therefore organized with both Precentors and EXORCISTS.

They were paying for their own sins and MOCKING prophetically Lord Jesus Christ. The Musical Levites again were prophesied to MOCK Jesus. They PIPED trying to get Him into the homosexual Dionysus song and dance.

The only MUSICIANS who entered into the Holy Places even in the vilest paganism was in Jerusalem where Zeus and Dionysus were "worshiped" in the Gymnasiums where they had to SET GUARDS to stiffle the homosexuality. They actually performed sexuality and homosexuality in temples dedicated to Zeus or Dionysus. That PLAGUE made Jerusalem so vile that Jesus spoke in parables to HIDE the gospel from them.

During many periods the Jews tolerated SINGERS which name roots to prostitutes and instrumentalists (normally a female domain) which roots to SODOMITES around the Temple.

SECOND: I told you that in pagan religions THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITON but that singers and musicians were of the LOWER CLASSES who could be abused as the final ACT OF WORSHIP (Re Wimber, Vineyard) just before paying your bill (something like tithing.)

MODERN SCHOLARS still agree with the documents of the Ancient Near East, the Biblical examples of "music," the church Fathers: THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION which does not give credit to SATAN (Lucifer) for choirs and instrumentalists which ALWAYS included the qedeshot or "holy prostitutes."

Nimrod in Babylon, contemporary musicians, scientists and musicologists RECOGNIZE that "music" produces the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUALITY. Music injects endorphins or natural morphine. Once you are addicted, the HIGH which seems natural to you seems UNNATURAL to Donnie and the chased-away half of your crowd.

I watched a Mormon girl who had never tasted Caffein just about go into insanity when someone gave her just one APC.




History knows it in pagan religions as SEXPERIENCE and not worship which happens ONLY in your HUMAN SPIRIT as the ONLY place God meets you. Leviticla musicians who attempted to go with the priests into the Holy Place as type of the church of Christ, or into the Most Holy Place a the PLACE where God meets a priest ONE AT A TIME would have been executed.

The MOTHER, Carol Wimber as the mother of the NEW STYLE HYMNALS insists that the next to last ACT OF WORSHIP is a music-induced CLIMACTIC expreience with God. The last ACT is giving of substance-tithing.

Now, if you cannot find any Biblically or historical evidence to refute 100% of the evidence, I claim that you have USED the PERSONA of Musical Performers and that PERSONA is universally that of sexuality.

You're next.

Ken Sublett

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(no login)

Re: Answers; I don't get it

April 11 2003, 11:03 AM 

Apparently you did not understand the question. You ramble on about things that simply don't apply. We don't have kings. We are not in hard bondage. We are not at Mt. Sinai. We ain't called the exorcist. We don't mock or pipe. There are no guards or plagues. No sodomites, no lower classes. We ain't in Babylon with Nimrod. We did not run anyone off, they left of their own will. I haven't seen an APC in 30 years, and not any here. AND, who in the world is Carol Wimber?

So, I fail to see where you are going with this madness.

I fail to understand why I even bother to answer you.

This conversation is over, unless you wish to meet with Donnie and I Sunday, at the church house, 7:30 am.
I bet I'm the only one that shows up.


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Kenneth Sublett
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YOU get it!

April 11 2003, 1:13 PM 

Here it is again, Eddie:


All of the ANTI-ISM such as Grace Centered and all of your THOUGHT LEADERS cannot see any condemnation of music in the Bible. The fact is THEY CANNOT SEE.

100% of the historical and Biblical evidence associates "religious" PRAISE SINGING and "music" to Satan, animal sacrifice EXORCISM, sexuality and perverted sexuality.

Jesus threw out, more or less violently like DUNG, the musical team and repudiated all of the Jewish additions of pagan music [I know that you haven't read that]. Therefore JESUS CHRIST is NOT your PATTERN.

The New Testament church is not your pattern.

The church historical theologians and historians are not your pattern.

The view of denominational founders is not your pattern.

Your thought leaders just lie about it!

WHAT IS YOUR PATTERN? The only "Lord" you imitate is the UNIVERSALLY polluted view of music in all paganism.

Therefore, what you are AFFLICTING the spiritual minds with is NOT REMOTELY CONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY. In fact MELODY or PSALLO means to "grind the enemy into a fine powder."

The host of American religion PATTERNED after Hollywood, Dollywood and TBN is virtually going insane remodelling and BUYING the old Greek theater "mechanae" to WOW the crowd. Since the CALLED OUT ASSEMBLY is a tiny minority DON'T let popularity and even possible "growth"be the OBJECT of your faith. It is called a SCAM.

YOU understand. Ken

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Eddie Williams
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To All Readers

April 13 2003, 3:51 PM 

I guess most of you have figured out Ken and Donnie DID NOT show up this morning. You notice in the post below, Ken evades the invitation with more of his raves and rants about nothing. Donnie simply did not answer. In my mind this shows them for what they are. They will not face anyone. They only want to hide behind their keyboard and stir up as much trouble as they can. I hope I'm writing this for their eyes only, as it is my belief there are not many people that visit here for serious study. On this note, I should listen to my own advice, and stop trying to change their minds. It ain't going to happen. Ken is a lost cause. I have had hope for Donnie in the past.

Chuck, Evan, Dal, John, Mr. B, Roger, We have better things to do!


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Kenneth Sublett
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Shame, Shame, Shame

April 13 2003, 11:34 PM 

Watching the male warriors of our nation in action I cannot express to you the pride I feel. Why did they do it? I believe that there is a God- Given impulse which makes people 'plagued' with righteousness and social justice willing to give up their lives to keep the 150 pound bully from punching a little girl or an old woman in the nose and snatch their purse.

I think God that He gave me that "Y" to take in my life in Korea. So, I have felt that primal instinct which Christ did not remove. Furthermore, He gave true believer's the instinct of the Spiritual Warrior with both offensive and defensive weapons.

In my 72 plus years I have felt all of the human feelings known to mankind--except one. I was born in a sharecroppers cabin on my Grandfather's farm and then lived in two slave cabins. My mom knew very well how to turn feed bags into most clothing. In her later years they had a fair house to live in and all of their need met.

Then, I think about a small band of vandals stealing in and eating all of her food and turning her out of her house at aged 95. Oh, they tried: they INFILTRATED her house and DIVERTED her mind but I got there before they could "buy" her furniture from several generations past. My Jesus didn't impulse me to turn my mother's other cheek any more than He did when He was smacked.

That final emotion of UTTER SHAME was saved by God to let me see spewing from people who wear the name of CHRIST to know why He is "calling" out a body of people which YOU guys cannot call with carnal strokings.

The only thing which has made me feel SHAME to the point of TEARS has been the lying about the Bible, about Christ, about the church and the horrific oppression heaped on the heads of old people including widows being chased out of their church by a band of religionists who HAVE no shame--for now.

I listen to this fairly often to TEST my devotion to anything other than the next DRUG HIGH from the spiritual "crack" dealers. /battlecryoffreedom.mid

Note that I had to take a space out after "audio" to make it fit.

No, by George, I wouldn't walk to the door.

Ken Sublett

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: To All Readers (Eddie Williams) April 13 2003, 3:51 PM

April 14 2003, 5:13 PM 


I realize you were extremely disappointed that nobody came to your self-appointed invitation. You should have already learned your lesson by then that extending an invitation like that would be futile. It’s unfortunate that a more effective way for some really SERIOUS study, covering more ground and more people and making use of time efficiently –- such as serious study on this site -- has never been your consideration. Meanwhile, as I have told John Paul George, I find that hiding behind my PC works for me. Regardless of how I hide, I can’t hide the truth. Somehow, the truth surfaces and I realize that the truth irritates and frustrates you to no end. And the truth is that I am not stirring trouble. I am simply exposing all the troubles stirred by your own friends and proponents of the Movements you’ve been participating in. Sorry!



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Joe McKnight
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June 26 2003, 2:41 PM 

Hey eddie
what about our meeting. a year ago you said you could get a meeting with the elders at MAD MADISON, but I guess it is business as usually: Say one thing and mean another. Smoke screen, duck and run. Pick on the weak and beat the sheep. Money talks and everythings else walks. I have given up on the occult at MAD MADISON, it is up to God now.

Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

To God be the Glory!
Joe McKnight

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Questions? (Eddie) April 10 2003, 2:19 PM

April 10 2003, 4:28 PM 


Simple! It’s the same way you would define “massage parlor.” Simply that! As to what Ken has NOT SEEN, that’s really not the issue. It’s all a matter of faith. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN. By faith Noah, being warned of God of THINGS NOT SEEN as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” (Hebrews 11:1,7)

Sorry, Eddie. Ken walks by faith, and not by sight. “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” (II Corinthians 5:7)


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Kenneth Sublett
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Give us a

April 15 2003, 1:36 PM 


------------GO LIGHT YOUR WORLD-----------

is a song which has become the MANTRA of those trying to SHINE THEIR OWN LIGHT as the "idolatry of talent."

For instance, the COMMERCIAL "PRAYER, CARE, SHARE INSTRUCTION WITH MARY MARR" notes that: "LIGHTHOUSES IN HARMONY facilitates current and potential Lighthouse ARTISTS, musicians and WORSHIP LEADERS to shine the Light of Jesus Christ through CONCERTS, church services and CITYWIDE gatherings. [P.S. and book shows and sell CDs.]

THE TRUTH PART IS THAT MUSIC FACILITATES THE MUSICIANS AND NOT CHRIST. There is no better REALITY CHECK than the Lucifer character who began BLEEDING OFF worship from God even in Heaven rising again in his AGENTS like Judas whose JUDAS BAG carried mouthpieces of WIND INSTRUMENTS.

The Catholic Campus Ministry uses this SHINING theme and their Logo is a RISING SUN. Remember our notes from Shelly about BAPTIZING SANTA and Lucado's COSMIC CHRISTMAS looking like SUN WORSHIP and Shelly's thinking of the S.O.N. God as the S.U.N. god? Well, under various slick titles his number is 666. And remember CHRIST-MASS and ISHTAR SERVICES?

Even in heaven there were TWO sources of light. God IS LIGHT but Lucifer (Latin) tried to be a LIGHT "BULB" to steal the worship from God. He was cast out and showed up in the garden of Eden as a Musical Enchanter replacing the LIGHT of God's presence. He embodied percussion, wind and string instruments.

The superiority of the Jews was in their mind and not in God's. Paul wrote about those who thought they could GO LIGHT THE WORLD. Instead they made CONVERTS worse than themselves.

--"And art confident that thou THYSELF art a guide of the blind, a LIGHT of them which are in DARKNESS, Rom 2: 19

----"An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the FORM of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Rom 2: 20

Paul told them in 2 Cor. 3 that they were BLIND AND DEAF because they had not recognized that Spirit of Christ was the Spirit of their dispensation. Paul warned those who would GO LIGHT THE WORLD with their own COMMERCIAL MUSICAL TALENT:

--"THEREFORE, seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 Cor 4:1

----"But have renounced the hidden things of DISHONESTY, not walking in CRAFTINESS, nor handling the word of God DECEITFULLY; but, by manifestation of the TRUTH, commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2

When Jesus comes the BABYLON PROSTITUTE will repeat the FALL of Lucifer as the king of Tyre and of Babylon: the harp- playing prostitutes:

----"Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and MUSICIANS, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no CRAFTSMAN, of whatsoever CRAFT... AND NOT EVEN THE LIGHT OF A CANDLE

--"But if our gospel be HID, it is hid to them that are LOST: 2 Cor 4:3

----"In whom the god of this world hath BLINDED the minds of them which believe not, lest the LIGHT of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should SHINE unto them. 2 Cor 4:4

----"For we preach NOT OURSELVES, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your SERVANTS for Jesus sake. 2 Cor 4:5

----"For God, who commanded the LIGHT to shine out of darkness, hath SHINED in our HEARTS, to give the LIGHT of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

----"But we have this treasure in EARTHEN vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2 Cor 4:7

Ostrakinos is earthern-ware and indeed we have PROOF of the Word of God because men wrote on fragments of clay jars and hid documents in clay jars TO BE PRESERVED.

The false LIGHTHOUSE IS LUCIFER who is always in opposition to the WORD of God:

---Heylel ( h1966) hay-lale'; from 1984 (in the sense of BRIGHTNESS); the morning-star: - lucifer.

---Halal (h1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); TO SHINE shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish .. shine. PRAISE.

The LIGHT that we have UNIVERSALLY associates MUSIC with Satan and his disciples who say: "We will not listen to the Word of God."

MUSIC is the defacto PROOF that people are telling Jesus that "we WILL NOT GO and teach your Word as it has been taught." By claiming to preach CHRIST through their truly childish "praise songs" they are FULFILLING end- time prophecy where COMMERCIAL SUCCESS TOTALLY CORRUPTS.

Contra Shelly, Peter and the other Apostles SAW the light of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ. They were not preaching CUNNINNGLY DEVISED FABLES (songs) but saw the LIGHT shine out from Jesus into their literal eyes.

---2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEAD (a worship word), as unto a LIGHT that shineth in a dark place, until the DAY DAWN, and the DAY STAR arise in your hearts:

---2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

PRIVATE INTERPRETATION means FURTHER EXPOUNDING. Those who BRAG about LIGHTING THE WORLD with their own FALSE "FURTHER EXPOUNDING in song" violate this law and GIVE ABSOLUTE PROOF inherent in all of the MUSICAL passages which shouts to the world: WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE WORD OF GOD.

The ONLY LIGHT OTHER THAN the Light Jesus shined forth as Full Deity and inspired in His Holy word is the musicians HALAL LIGHT. That translates to the fact that HEYLEL or LUCIFER is just making a fool out of them. No doubt, the COURT JESTERS will be at the WORKSHOP OF EVIL. And we told you that when God POURS OUT HIS WRATH he sends strong deluders as BUFFOONS.

Ken Sublett

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Donnie Cruz
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April 18 2003, 4:09 PM 

Ephesians 4 summarizes the church’s organization and emphasizes unity. The writer states: “[1] I therefore … beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called … [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] … and gave gifts unto men. [11] And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS; and some, PASTORS [ELDERS or BISHOPS or SHEPHERDS] and TEACHERS; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God … [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ …”

The offices of ELDERS and DEACONS are specified in several passages: elders ordained in every church (Acts 14:23; 16:17; Acts 15), with listed qualifications in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1. The ministry of EVANGELISTS is exemplified by Philip (Acts 21:8) or Timothy and Mark (2 Tim. 4:5,11) and of TEACHERS in Hebrews 5:12.

Lord Jesus Christ, our ONLY mediator:

(1) Teaches us in a model prayer to our Father in Matthew 6:9-13. “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.” Amen.” Of course, we pray in Jesus’ name (Eph. 5:20; Col. 3:17). And even in Jesus’ name do we withdraw fellowship from a brother: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (II Thess. 3:6)

(2) Instructs us in our worship of the Father: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23,24)

The big question is: Should congregations of the church of Christ (Rom. 16:16), without God’s authority, have the liberty to include the following OFFICES or POSITIONS in the church’s ORG CHART:

--- MODERN DAY APOSTLES (like Don Finto)
--- WOMEN MINISTERS (such as Paula, Petra, Johnna, Timothya, Marka)
--- POPES, CARDINALS AND ARCHBISHOPS for churches of Christ
--- Etc. (Feel free to add more to the list)

Donnie Cruz

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Kenneth Sublett
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Give us a worship leader?

June 4 2003, 3:17 PM 

The Jews had a WORSHIP LEADER who frequently led them to the temple area and then down into TOPHETH. Named after the tophet or tamborine. It was once "the king's music grove" and it came to stand for hell itself where the king/queen of Babylon and his/her musicians and harps and other instruments went back into Sheol with him to burn and rot on a bed of maggots.

He was Molech or Chiun or Saturn the 666 character. You burned little babies at the end of the musical procession led by your musical worship leaders. You made lots of "music" so that the priest could not hear the baby screams as evil but get a REVELATION out of the CONSUMING FIRES. Satan just loves little babies. There is no better way to BURN the brain with new HARD WIRED connections which confuses the charismatic or sexual music-induced drug to Spiritual worship.

In Phoenix, Zoe (Lucifer the superior to little Jesus) and the MOTHER of little Jehovah, will bring down the CONSUMING FIRES. Of course, all fire worship is devil worship and God's FIRES are reserved for those who will not come before Him in REVERENCE AND FEAR. He will burn them up beginning-RIGHT NOW-by their OWN breath. You can go to Phoenix to learn how to be a MISLEADER for Satan.

----"Eze.28:18 Thou hast DEFILED thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy TRAFFICK; therefore will I bring forth a FIRE from the MIDST of THE, it shall DEVOUR THE, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

DEFILED means to bring music into the holy places: the word is translated as to PLAY THE FULTE, POLLUTE OR PROSTITUTE. It has the same root meaning of HALAL or praise singing which was "making self vile." The word translated LUCIFER is derived from the praise word of the lost souls. Lucifer came from walking among the burning stones. Hope you have tough feet.

I have done a rendering to and old woodblock to show you Zoe's MARK or LOGO of a consuming fire comming out of his belly (liberties taken) consuming the children of the MUSICAL PERFORMERS. I like it.

The applaud of the six-packers and unlawful, faithless preachermen is just God MOCKING you.

God to Phoenix to become a worship leader but bring along the marshmellows. The burning process has begun: that is the reason for the wails of lost souls like banshees reverberating through the halls of hell.


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Kenneth Sublett
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Give us a Fire Starter

June 5 2003, 7:17 PM 

Zoe has the people restless in Phoenix because they know that the church will be discorded more and more. ZOE'S theme for their Look to the Hills (Where the mountain gods live) conference is:


Lest you think this unusual look at this quote from another group trying to light your fires with body worship:

A Web Page "Spreading the fire" Fuel the Fire

----"The nature of a fire is to spread, but how can we expect the fire to grow and to CATCH ONTO others if ours is only a CANDLE-sized flame? The best way to witness to your friends is to show them by example. When Non-Christians see the INFERNO in our lives they will find it IRRESISTIBLE and will be drawn like moths."

INFERNO means "HELL or suggesting hell." The CONSUMERS WITH FIRE literally invite you to participate in HELL right now. But God always MARKS them with some sign so that those awake will not turn into toast.

HERE IS THE MARK. The cute Zoe in Phoenix invitation to a burning is quoted from Hebrews. Obviously God has MOCKED the whole group in that they DEFINE just whom will be CONSUMED by God's fire: those who do not approach God with REVERENCE AND HOLY FEAR. After all, there is a big gap between the God of the Universe and a lover. The "emerging church" revelations often make appeals to rituals muck like witchcraft. Music was always a favorite WEAPON to seduce you. The FAMILIAR SPIRIT of the witch of Endor was an empty wineskin as an echo chamber with much the meaning of the harp and Pauls "echoing bronze."

Paul, as usual, directs us back to an earlier CONSUMING fire and tells us why they turned into toast:

----"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they ESCAPED NOT who REFUSED him that spake on earth, MUCH MORE shall not we escape, if we TURN AWAY from him that speaketh from heaven: Heb. 12:25

You know how the latter day apostles MOCK the idea of using Nadab and Abihu. Matthew Henry notes:

---"Him that spake on earth: MOSES, who spoke on the part of God to the Hebrews, every transgression of whose word received a just recompense of reward, none being permitted to escape punishment; consequently, if ye turn away from Christ, who speaks to you from heaven, you may expect a MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, the offense against God being so much the MORE HEINOUS, as the privileges slighted are more important and glorious. Matthew Henry

Those who REFUSE Paul's use of Nadab and Abihu must KNOW that the candle has been lit and if they are good AGENTS they must ridicule anyone who would refer to God's types or PATTERNS. That includes the WHOLE BIBLE exept the core gospel of "seven facts about God." Who can be so gullible as to drink Jones Town Koolaid? You dear brother are just as vulnerable when you mock the Word of God or those who quote it.

ALL musical "teamsters" REFUSE AND TURN AWAY from Christ Who still speaks from heaven through His word. Furthermore, they deliberately try to keep others from hearing the WORDS or songs of Lord Jesus Christ Who is the Spirit of the Prophets. All "singing" which is not TEACHING is a SIN. How better than to SUBSTITUTE one's on silly but VEILING ditties? I don't accept that these people are SINCERE for one second.

THOSE WHO REFUSED MOSES FROM EARTH: "And there went out FIRE from the Lord, and DEVOURED them, and they died before the Lord. Lev 10:2

REFUSING CHRIST WHO HAS SPOKEN FROM HEAVEN and REFUSING to worship Him with fear and reverence will make you the MOTHS who "COME TO THE LIGHT" and get zapped. Why? How is treating a Holy God as someone to be entertained or seduced so much more WICKED and deserving a worse punishment than "strange fire?? They DELIBERATELY "block the gate" to those seeking the Kingdom of God within and the only thing worse than PHYSICAL BURNING is SPIRITUAL AND ETERNAL BURNING. That is what Paul said and that is why as good little AGENTS they need to tell you that the epistles are just garbage.

-------"For our God is a CONSUMING fire. Heb.12:29

REVERENCE is: Aidos (g127) ahee-doce'; perh. from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.

When the feminine or effeminate swing and sway and clap and sing silly, erotic praise songs, they CANNOT be reverent and they MANUFACTURE irreverence. There is no such thing as reverent DRAMA or HAND CLAPPING or oohing and aahing. People want you to COME TO THE LIGHT to feed the beast. If they can ONCE make you connect spiritual worship to sexuality by musical stroking it is harder to kick than Crack.

GOODLY FEAR is: Eulabeia (g2124) yoo-lab'-i-ah; from 2126; prop. caution, i.e. (religiously) reverence (piety); by impl. dread (concr.): - fear (- ed).

Most "team worshipers" sing, clap, dance, use drama which have their origin in Lucifer or Sophia/ Zoe before he/she was CAST OUT of heaven along with his "worshipers." There can be no Godly fear and God is MOCKING them with blindness to MARK and lead out others who are blind.

True "worship" is like a "dog licking his master's feet" because a human approaching God in the Most Holy Place comes boldly but not with DELIBERATE IRREVERANCE.

You can pay up to $86.00 dollars for "all the bells and whistles'by the time you get to Phoenix plus transportation, housing, food and etc. Do you know why they try so urgently to spend the LORD'S MONEY defeating the LORD'S WORD?

You can learn about "praise", creative programming, technology, a new agape which probably you cannot DO in church on the Lord's day (Sabbath is Saturn is 666). visual arts, worship experience, worship ministry, media, audio, technology, blended worship.

Wittingly or half-wittingly they are inviting you to be trained in exactly those SKILLS which Paul said got Nadab and Abihum consumed and will get YOU consumed. God WILL NOT be mocked and your soul will also burn in the INVITED TO Inferno.


Of Lucifer who is Zoe or Sophi-Zoe, Origen translated it:

"I gave thee for a SHOW and a MOCKERY on account of the multitude of thy sins, and of thine iniquities:

-----"because of thy trade (musical trade and CDs) thou hast polluted (play the flute, pollute, prostitute) thy holy places. And I shall bring forth fire from the MIDST of thee, and it shall devour thee, and I shall give thee for ashes and cinders on the earth in the sight of all who see thee: and all who know thee among the nations shall mourn over thee. Thou hast been made destruction, and thou shalt exist no longer for ever." (Ezek. 28:)


The Babylon Harlot has her worship ministers: the SINGING musicians are muses (locusts). As Lucifer was cast out of heaven for TRAFFICKING, the end time harlot is a blend of false religion, musicians to fool the fools and commerce. She is cunning because she disguises her weapons of wind, string and percussion instruments in the bodies of an organic musical instrument.

Added pictures of FIRE worship where music meant CONSUMING YOUR CHILDREN in CANAAN LAND.


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Re: Give us a Fire Starter

June 24 2003, 12:38 AM 

Worship leaders in the Bible? What about the term "music minister" as we call a man at our church? I don't know if that term makes it more palatable for those of you who seem to hate us who believe in using instruments... All I know is that here's one example of those who were responsible for the instrumental music in God's temple:
1 Chronicles 9:33
"Those who were musicians, heads of Levite families, stayed in the rooms of the temple and were exempt from other duties because they were responsible for the work day and night."
Those who were musicians... they were gifted in music, and were responsible their work as such... would God not want those who were gifted as such to be responsible for working in it day and night (as Scott, our dear music minister does!) to lead his people in praises? I believe He would.

As for music in praise to our Lord, there are more verses that support it than I'd care to count. Here are just a few. I'm sure you've heard them before, and I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind, but I have to live by my ideal of speaking where God's word speaks.

1 Kings 10
11 Hiram's ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones. 12 The king used the almugwood to make supports for the temple of the LORD and for the royal palace, and to make harps and lyres for the musicians. So much almugwood has never been imported or seen since that day.

Psalm 27
5 For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;
he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle
and set me high upon a rock.
6 Then my head will be exalted
above the enemies who surround me;
at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make music to the LORD .

Psalm 33
1 Sing joyfully to the LORD , you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully, and shout for joy.

I love you all... whether you agree with me or not, I will not be angry, because we are all one body, baptized for the remission of sins into Christ Jesus our Lord.


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Mark Waggoner
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Re: Re: Give us a Fire Starter

June 24 2003, 5:09 PM 

Although there are obviously sharp discussions taking place on this website, I doubt (and sincerely hope) that hate is not the motivation behind any of them. I dare say that the majority of the "hateful" posts come from those advocating unscriptural change in Christ's church.

Speaking of scripture, I'm glad that you included some in your reply. The scriptures settle any and all issues. However, I didn't see any New Testament authority for using instrument music during worship in your post. Is it because there is none? If we can rely on Old Testament/Mosaic authority, then I'm sure you wouldn't object to offering animal sacrifices and burning incense instead of taking the Lord's Supper?? No, I thought not.

Please refer to Leviticus 10:1-3, an example of progressing beyond what God commands. This example even deals directly with worship - in doing something that "God had NOT commanded". Compare that with I Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells us to "not go beyond what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one another". In II John 8-10, we are warned to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". The derivative of the Greek root word for "goes on ahead" means "progress".

I applaud your statement: "... I have to live by my ideal and speak where God's word speaks";however, we can't pick which part to follow. "All scripture is given by inspiration" and it must be "rightly divided".

Mark Waggoner

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Old vs. New

June 24 2003, 11:19 PM 

I was always told that we are not to follow the Old Law, as it was abolished and replaced with the New Law. It doesn't say that the Old Testament was abolished, just the Old Law. And from what I was told, the Book of the Law consists of the first five books of the Bible (for those that aren't familiar, that'd be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

The Law it refers to, if my Bible classes have been accurate, pertains exactly to what you're talking about -- we don't have to sacrifice animals, because Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice. The Israelites lived under a system of some 600-odd laws, which were removed when Jesus died to take away our sins.

The music that is mentioned in Psalms is not condemned, and it's not a part of the Old Law. It is a part of the Old Testament. Please note the difference. I'm not completely advocating their use in the church; I've grown up without them and it just seems normal to me. You grew up hearing that they are condemned and are instruments of Satan, so you still see it as that. The use of instruments in the Old Testament did not seem to be included in the actual Old Law teachings, so if you ask me, they would continue to be valid during the New Testament times. To me, that's just syllogism. But since I'm posting on this site, I guess that's called "being a change agent".

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Kenneth Sublett
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Old Vs. New

June 25 2003, 2:24 PM 

People wrote and sang their own songs. David even sang and meditated on a Psalm ON MY BED. That means that David spoke a Psalm to himself and meditated on it in his heart. Even in the Synagogue people cantillated (not singing as we know it) the PROSE parts of the writings before they began SPEAKING to one another with the poetic or metrical material. This metrical version can be divided into 5 books to somewhat parallel the Torah.

Lu.24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the PSALMS, concerning me.

Paul's use of Psalmns, Hymns and Spiritual songs are all clearly defined (especially in the Greek version) as TYPES of the metrical material in the BOOK of Psalms. In addition, the Maschal or Maskil (?) were dark sayings or proverbs in the Book of the Psalm.

The synagogue or church in the wilderness (Qahal) was for TEACHING the Word of God. They were allowed to CALL the assembly with the silver trumpets. However, when they assembled as a SCHOOL the triumph over or "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" was forbidden in Numbers 10:7. It was just common decency that people didn't sing, play, dance and clap their hands as the WARRIOR'S chant when God was speaking through Moses or others.

It is quite proper to sing or as Paul would day, SPEAK a Psalm about bashing out the heads of little Babylonian babies if it is used to SPEAK OR PREACH one to another and explain the meaning as a sermon. The prose record fills in the details.

Paul outlawed anything which would create SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT which was the goal of the "alarm" or "triumph over" condemned for the synagogue in Romans 15. THEN you can "glorify God with ONE MOUTH and ONE VOICE by reciting "that which is written." That which is written is by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11)

Most of the Psalms make no mention of instruments; when instruments are mentioned the purpose is magical or condemning.

Look at the color-coded chart to see that the colors indicate a PROCESSIONAL, new moons, symbolic, VENGEANCE, arousal or AWAKENING the HARP, FEAR of being cast off, historical warning, prophetic. None of them are remotely related to "congregational worship" because the people's congregation always met in a form of the synagogue and "there was never a praise service in the synagogue" any more than you hire one to help you teach your chemistry class.

Psalms are actually DEMANDED to "teach that which is written" but NEVER for a pagan "praise service" trying to get cozy with a Spirit God. The commanded ACT is teaching. With Jesus the SINGING was "grieving out" a hymn. And it is His Death, not the resurrection of ISHTAR, which we are to honor with REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR because: "God is God and you are not."


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Old vs. New (by Jeremy) June 24 2003, 11:19 PM

June 25 2003, 3:06 PM 


In Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, there are numerous references to: (1) tithe, (2) tithes or (3) tithing. Why is Madison’s preacher, as some others in other congregations do, too, now teach and preach on “tithing”? I agree with you -- but it’s also common knowledge -- that the Old Testament portion of the Holy Scriptures has not been abolished. I believe you should bring this to Dr. White’s attention that this law or command [of TITHING] is no longer applicable to New Testament Christians.

I’ll make a correction to your statement regarding music. It’s true that MUSIC is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. And so is “MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS”! But you need to discover for yourself that in no instances were they ever used in the WORSHIP assembly. The passages are in reference to honoring kings and rulers and, in many instances, to idolatrous worship.

But you must agree with me that the Old Testament is really congruent to the peoples of the world and their practices AT/OF THE TIME, just as the New Testament contains doctrines and beliefs that “New Testament” Christians must adhere to in our time. We must not get the purposes for having both testaments confused. Does it mean we should disavow or disregard the Old Testament? No! No! No! There are principles that are unchanging and consistent in both sections of the Bible. But commands and practices change. Dispensations change. I believe, as the Bible says, that there is merit to learning something about the past … you know … that thing that we call “history.” But that’s the extent of it: HISTORY. It is good to know, for example, that prophecies contained in the Old Testament, have been fulfilled, such as: the coming of our Savior and the establishment of the His church.

Finally, let me just quote to you so that many people will not be confused any longer: “FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4).

Donnie Cruz

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Thanks for your reply!

June 25 2003, 12:24 AM 

Brother Mark:

Thank you for your reply. I appreciate not being attacked by you, as I was worried I would be (I've been reading a lot on this site!), and will answer your questions as best as possible.

The "hateful" comments I have read in fact have not come from those who "advocate changing the scriptures" as you have suggested. Rather, they have come from traditionalists who seem that they would rather confuse most readers than give a clear message to all. I certainly don't know if this is their intent, and I hope not, but I know that there are many posts that I simply have to skip, as I am not educated enough in languages like "Subblish" to understand the meaning of what they are trying to say.

As for there not being any scriptures in the New Testament SPECIFICALLY CONDONING instrumental worship, many searches through my own Bible and several concordances do not bring up any SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNING it. The Bible says to sing hymns- where in the New Testament does it say they were not accompanied? I know that Ephesians 5:19b it tells us to "sing and make music in your heart." For many of us, the music in our hearts means joy, peace, love... Singing and making music in my heart is a part of my everyday life. I praise God because my heart knows nothing else. I do so by "singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."

I read the passage from Leviticus that you referred to. I also read the preceding chapters. From your point of view that you presented to me, this has to do with sacrifices- the Old Testament form of atonement, so it should not be a valid point anyway. It is also in the Old Testament, so it doesn't really "count" as a true example.

As for going beyond what is written, isn't taking things to a right-wing extreme in one direction the same as taking things to a severe liberal position in the other? If you read the verses leading up to verse 6 in 1 Corinthians 4, you will see that the entire discussion is about judging others "before the appointed time" and we are to "wait until the Lord comes." At the end of verse 5, it states that his light "will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." The entire text of verse 6 is as follows: "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, 'Do not go beyond what is written.' Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." Paul states here that he is instructing them how to discern the MEANING OF A SAYING. Where was your contextual basis for this point?

2 John 1:8-10 in fact does state that we are to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". Were you aware that the Amish also use this verse as part of a scriptural basis for the way they live? They believe those who make progress are doomed. I believe, as do many others, that this passage is dealing with those who present a new gospel, who "make progress" with the words of Jesus... that is to go ahead with their own version of the plan of salvation.

Isn't salvation by God's grace more important than whether instruments are used in His church? Let me ask you this... and Mr. Subblett I'm sure I'll hear from you, so answer this question for me.

I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6) I have repented of my sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Luke 15:7, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) I have confessed the name of the Lord (Matthew 10:32-33, Mark 8:38, 1 Timothy 6:12-13, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:36-37) I have been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (Matthew 28:10-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 16:33, Acts 8:36-39, Romans 6:4-6, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5). The church is Christ's body. To be saved, I am a part of His body. He HIMSELF is the head over it. (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2:47, Acts 20:28, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22-23, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Colossians 1:23, Ephesians 4:15, Hebrews 12:23) My obedience in faith, repentance, confession and baptism also makes us a member of the body of Christ, both happen simultaneously. If I remain faithful until death, then the Lord will take me to Himself. (2 Peter 1:5-12, Matthew 24:13, Revelations 2:10, Revelations 2:26-27, Revelations 3:10, Revelations 3:21) I am faithful to my Lord. I study His word, I pray, I sing His praises, I attempt to live my life as a continual prayer and song to please Him. Because I agree that using musical instruments in the service is acceptable (and even pleasing!) to God, does this mean in your eyes that I am going to hell?

I read somewhere else on this site (I believe in one of the sponsored links) that one of the reasons that community churches are not Christian is because of the extra conditions, such as signing covenants, they impose on those who wish to be members of the church. Is not requiring that they do not wish to use instruments in worship, or requiring that they don't clap hands also imposing a condition on being a member of the body of Christ?

Going back to your reference in 1 Corinthians 4, Mark... if we follow our eyes in the natural progression to the end of the chapter, we see in verses 21 and 22 the following:
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?"

I don't know about any other people that agree with my viewpoints on music in the worship service, but I feel thoroughly "whipped"

In Sisterly Love,

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Kenneth Sublett
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June 25 2003, 7:32 PM 

Moselle, I don't know how I get across the point that we are not talking about you other than to answer specific questions.

Now, If my name were Jesus or Jehovah- Saved I might give you a good grade for all of your works. However, it is carefully taught DIVERSION to try to define the evil uses to which MUSIC is put by testing it by ME or THEE. If you turn out to be the Messiah and I turn out to be Satan, not one jot or tittle will change in the inspired Word.

The other deliberate lie is about Godly commands, examples and inferenes, and about the silence of Scripture. The Bible beginning in the garden of Eden is not silent about Satan's WHOLLY SEDUCTION of Eve, or as it does a flashback to the heavenly realm where he/ she led the angels astray. The CARNAL WEAPON or LIFELESS instrument was MUSIC which always went along with other devices to duct-tape the mouth of God.

Where the preachers lustfully lie about silence and commands, I have posted a stream of quotations from the Bible and historical writers to PROOVE that what is called "legalistic" flows out of the heart of God. Scripture is NOT SILENT about honoring God's Silence.

Contrary to your false trail of tears, I don't do HEAVEN or HELL but all of the Biblical and contemporary writings during that time proves that DOING music for the synagogue (not church) violates the law given to the Israelites for "the church in the wilderness." Other passages try to SILENCE the words of Christ. If you are singing secular tunes with instruments no lawyer on the face of the earth could prove that you are worshipping God, meaning TO GIVE HEED to Him.

I don't jump into musical churches as they deliberately organize to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT to steal non-instrumental churches. You cannot name a single non-instrumental church in history which sent out "evangelists" to use the law to force people to use instruments and pay "taxes."

This site is primarily directed at churches which HAVE BEEN or are BEING confiscated by bandits as evil as history knows of. So, if you are not stealing a non- instrumental church, just cool it. Maybe someone will send your list of works on ahead but as you see them as LAW they will all fall into dust if you conspire to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE during "class time."


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Mark Waggoner
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Re: Thanks for your reply!

June 25 2003, 8:01 PM 


There isn't much to gain by debating which "side" posts the most venomous statements. I have been repeatedly attacked by cowardly, anonymous people who appear to enjoy a fight rather than a discussion. I choose to stand by the Bible as my sole source of authority; not plotting a "conservative", "liberal", or "moderate" course. The truth is the truth.

I very much appreciated (and agree with) your detailed description of coming to salvation. Christ adds one to His assembly when that person accepts His grace through faithful obedience. From your posts, I see that you also believe this to be true. However; our particular disconnect appears to be one of scriptural authority, which includes the issue of instrumental music in worship to God and whether or not this is a "salvation issue". We should all respect God's authority and never be presumptuous concerning anything we do during worship or in our everyday lives, for that matter.

I found it ironic that in your first post, you listed Old Testament passages to support your initial argument but said that my point concerning Leviticus 10 "didn't count" because it was in the Old Testament. The offering of "strange fire" was an act of worship of the priests. This wasn't a violation of a "thou shalt not", it was something that "God commanded them not". In other words, God was silent on this issue! That was my reason for quoting that passage. If the Bible has to tell us EVERYTHING that we cannot do, a human being could not print, read, or carry it because it would be an endless document. Also, there would be no end to what is "authorized": "let's shoot off pyrotechnics during worship and really liven it up - the Bible doesn't say not to". Just because something is done in the name of worship does not mean God will accept it (cf. Mt. 7:21-29). We must worship both "in spirit and truth" doing "all in the name of the Lord (John 4:24; Col. 3:17).

I cannot pass judgment upon you, Moselle. I can only say that the New Testament does not authorize many things practiced today, instrumental music being but one of them. Let me respond to your question with a question: are you so absolutely convinced that instrumental music is pleasing to God so that you will wager your soul's eternal destination over it?


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