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June 26 2003, 9:46 AM 


I was referring to the point that you made, when I said that it didn't "count." There again goes my little bite of sarcasm that I need to get rid of- and probably doesn't come across on a computer screen.

As to my eternal salvation... I am sure, 100% that I am saved and going to heaven. What you've just given me is the red fish argument... "You can't be sure you're right, so why don't you just join up with us?" Well I AM SURE THAT I AM SAVED!!! I am not sure I'm right on the musical instrument issue, because there is NO CLEAR CUT STATEMENT CONDONING OR CONDEMNING THEM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. It does not say in ANY of Paul's letters or Jesus' instructions, "Do not use musical instruments when you join together, But rather praise the Lord with your mouth only." If it said anything remotely close to that, I'd agree with you, and leave my church. My church has shown me Christian love. They preach the gospel of salvation. I am a part of a family who loves me. Mark- I'm going to heaven. I'm so sure of this that yes, I would risk hearing musical instruments in worship. Because God hears praise, and he loves it.

Now, since this is the last day that I'm posting (you can find my reasons in a post under the topic I started), I would like to say goodbye and good luck to all of you. I will still check in occasionally to read, but mostly to check on what prayer needs exist. I need to get ready for work, so y'all have a good day...

Love in Christ... MOSELLE

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Mark Waggoner
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Re: Yes.

June 26 2003, 8:53 PM 


I hate to end this discussion with you but I hope that you will give the matter of scriptural authority much prayer and study. The Bible does not have to explicitly state a "thou shalt not" for something to be sinful. When it does tell us to do this or that, we are not at liberty to add to or take from it. This isn't a new problem and is the root cause for much division. Speaking where the Bible speaks is nothing more than "speaking as it were the oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11). Silence doesn't grant permission, either in religious or secular matters. If a teenager was sent to the store with a list of 10 items and they returned home with 12, was buying the extra items authorized? Do property tax exemptions for people over 65 apply to me when the law doesn't explicitly state that it doesn't apply to those who are 42 years old? When I signed a surgical consent form to repair a torn abdominal muscle, did I also authorized the doctor to scope my knee? I didn't say not to. If any document is considered as being authoritative, silence (what the document does not say) must be respected or else why would the document even be considered authoritative in the first place?

The Bible contains "all truth" (John 16:13); "everything pertaining to life and Godliness" (II Peter 1:3); and was "once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If the Bible is complete, how can we reason that we have permission to do something that it does not authorize? Look closely at Hebrews 7:14 and you will see that "...Moses spoke nothing (was silent) concerning priests" in reference to Jesus not being a Levite. Did God have to explicitly state that priests couldn't come from the other 11 tribes when he ordained this duty upon the Levites? Hebrews 11:4 and I John 3:12 recount the "evil" of Cain's sacrifice. Yes, it was evil to kill his brother but he killed him because his "deeds were evil". He offered a sacrifice that God hadn't commanded and that was sin! Numbers 20:1-12 records Moses' sin of striking the rock for water instead of doing what God told him to do the 2nd time, which was to speak to it. "It worked once, it should work again", after all, God didn't say NOT to hit the rock. That mistake cost him entrance into the promised land.

We need to realize that God doesn’t need any advice and that the Bible doesn’t need to be improved. Most importantly, we need to let God be God and tell us what He wants and how He wants to be worshipped, rather than wanting to do what makes us feel good and important.

In Him,


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Kenneth Sublett
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Give us a worship leader

June 26 2003, 5:29 PM 

I know, I know, "we don't use instruments in our church." Yet the defenders always seem to defend instruments which was the ultimate goal of the "worship leader" heresy.

One of the lapses of those who claim superiority to all of Biblical history is that thy assume a HARP but there is no HARPIST listed as a gifted person.

Paul's direct command was to SPEAK or PREACH one to another, the resource was "that which is written," the Spirit or the Word of Christ. Early believers thought that both the singing and melody was in the HEART or the Spirit which is were Jesus said that worship takes place as one is devoted to truth.

People do an end-run around Paul's clear teaching that the ACT proved that church was a synagogue or school of the Bible. Why would the Spirit cause Paul to use the Greek word PSALLO if he intended worship IN THE SPIRIT. The word MELODY is not remotely a MUSICAL word. Even in its most ancient form:

Psallo (psao) meant:

I. to touch sharply, to PLUCK, pull, TWITCH, Aesch.; toxou neuran ps.

---to TWANG the BOW-string, Eur.; belos ek keraos ps.

---to send a shaft twanging from the bow, Anth.;

---so, a carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then SUDDENLY let go, so as to leave a MARK, id=Anth.

II. to play a stringed instrument with the FINGERS, NOT with the plectron, Hdt., Ar., Plat.

2. later, to sing to a harp, SING NTest.

In the New Testament the word had lost its warrior and therefore "musical" content and defined teaching with the singing (only) in the heart.

If your guitarist plays with a pick then he is not MAKING MELODY. Plucking with the FINGERS intends to carry the message that one YANKED, TWITCHED OR TWANGED a bow string or HAIR in order to PSALLO or make melody in the enemy's heart but leave him dead. Early harps were boards with ligaments (lifeless instruments) stretched across them. Whey you PLUCKED the string you grasped them with your FINGERS and suddenly llet them go. It ground the board into bits and left MARKS on it.

If you have ever TWANGED a bowstring without an arm guard you know that it leaves a MARK on your arm. It literally grinds it into pieces. So, the same meaning of PSAO to TOUCH, Crumble away, vanish, disappear. The SOP Jesus ground up for Judas carried the same meaning.

Why would Paul be ignorant of the meaning of EXTERNAL melody as a LITERAL WARRIOR'S attack on the literal heart to define a TEACHING and ADMONISHING assembly? There simply is no spiritual content in the word melody or psallo.

That is why the melody (not remotely harmony) is defined as IN THE HEART and directed to God. Paul interchangeably uses the word GRACE instead of melody. Grace then gently abrades the human heart or ADMONISHING would not take place.

EACH PERSON must make melody in the heart but you would require HARPISTS if Paul intended a "WARRIOR'S WEAPON OF DEATH" in its original meaning. For instance, Paul compared speaking in tongues to the harpist or trumpet player of warfare but he DID NOT speak of a HARPIST in the church assembly. For, instance the "ist" meaning is not attached to the church:

ki-tharoid-esis, eôs, hê, singing to the cithara

Paul would have had to say "Singing to the Cithara. Or,

Psalmoidia , singing to the harp. That is singing or ODEing to a harp played by a HARPIST. Paul used the word PSALMOS to define a spiritual activity WITHOUT professional melody makers. If the singing was TO a harp then Paul would ave used the word PSALMOIDIA.

lur-istes , ou, ho, player on the lyre

Paul does not define the HARPIST as a ritualistic functionary, therefore, Paul was not speaking of the twanging noise of the warrior's making a noise LIKE THUNDER. If a literal musical instrument is intended then every member must have a literal instrument and figure out how to play the instrument in THEIR HEART. No, this is not silly because literal melody would be to TWANG a literal bowstring to send a singing arrow INTO the literal heart. That is why many of the older members, not up to waging spiritual warfare against Jesus just run for cover before you can do them any more damage.

The Bible 100% of the time associates MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS with Warefare or worse. Those who make new musical SECTS know that they are waging spiritual warfare against Christ and His Word. They intentionally SOW DISCORD and boast about how they are going to TEACH AWAY the hundreds of broken HEARTS.

In Amos the musical ritualists went into captivity and death because of LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Probably most churches are under the WARRIORS making literal melody in the heart to keep you ignorant. But, the truly good blind people go into the pit with the blind leaders simply because they DID NOT LOVE THE TRUTH.


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Donnie Cruz
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September 2 2003, 5:49 AM 

“[1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk WORTHY OF THE VOCATION WHEREWITH YE ARE CALLED, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of YOUR CALLING; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. … [11] And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS; and some, PASTORS (a.k.a. elders or shepherds) and TEACHERS; [12] For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST…” (Ephesians 4, KJV)

Even though the office of “WORSHIP LEADER” is absent in the passage above and because certain congregations have this culture-designated leadership position and would not dare eliminate it, we need to know why he has so much control over an assembly of the saints.

I came across an article on “song categories.” No doubt the emphasis in the article is about MUSIC—as though music, not Word-centeredness, were the central focus in the gathering. It said, “A worship leader's song list is like a carpenter's toolbox - each tool being most effective when used according to its purpose. The equipped worship leader needs songs that not only fit his/her setting, but that minister in different ways at different times.” [The worship leader and HER setting? dc]

I found it interesting that the list included several categories including: adoration, authority, blessing and benediction, call to worship/gathering, comfort, commitment, compassion, confession, declaration … thanksgiving, triumph, unity, etc. In many churches—denominational or not—“celebration” service is very well emphasized. “Celebration” is one of the song categories listed in the article.

Here’s its definition or description of “celebration.” “Celebration: Express the sheer joy, laughter and exhilaration we experience by knowing God. THIS MUSIC MAKES US WANT TO DANCE!” Now we know why Madison’s Worship Leader loves doing his antics on stage, loves singing songs such as “If You’re Happy and You Know It [… clap your hands], loves initiating and encourages rhythmical handclapping during singing, loves initiating the applause after singing a really FUN song. Other songs: “Celebrate Jesus.” There is actually a music piece titled “CLAP YOUR HANDS” that the Praise Team performs in the assembly.
Donnie Cruz

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Donnie Cruz
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Emotion, bereft of truth, is an unacceptable substitute for true worship

September 26 2003, 1:02 AM 

By John H. Waddey, editor of Christianity: Then and Now

. . .

Aesthetics is the study and appreciation of things beautiful. It involves such things as art, sculpture and fine music. Art is beautiful. Fine music is inspiring, entertaining and relaxing. The thunderous peels of the pipe organ thrill the aesthetic nature of many souls. However scripture does not make esthetic beauty the standard for acceptable worship. God has specifically forbidden the making and use of statuary (graven images) for worship (Deut.5: 8-9). Even the great art of the Italian masters cannot be used as aids or objects of acceptable worship. Early Christians worshiped without fine opulent houses of worship, without fine art and sculpture and without the finery of instrumental accompaniment to their singing.

Emotion in worship has its place in worship. We must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:30). Emotion however, musts always be in subjection to the will of God. "Not every one that saith Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mathew 7:21).

We must obey from the heart that form of teaching (Romans 6:17). Emotion, bereft of truth, is not just harmless; it can be an unacceptable substitute for true worship. It can lead to worship that is chaotic and confusing (I Corinthians 14:33, 40).

Acceptable worship must be "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). That worship can be offered to God in a manner totally acceptable without a beautiful building, the use of the fine art, statuary, musical instruments and musically trained and directed choirs. It was so with those first Christians. It can be so even today.
. . .

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Donnie Cruz
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If the introduction of praise teams creates conflict and confusion

October 11 2003, 4:04 AM 

MESSAGE FROM: John Waddey, Editor of “Christianity: Then and Now”

It is not wrong that good singers sit together … It is not wrong that they sit together near the front of the auditorium … There are however, some other important considerations regarding the use of praise teams: If the introduction of praise teams creates conflict and confusion in a congregation, leaders should consider Paul’s words, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace...” (I Cor. 14:34). “Let all things be done unto edifying” (vs. 26). To those who insisted on using their gift of speaking in foreign tongues in the assembly, Paul said, “thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified” (vs. 17). Even if a praise team sings well and with good intentions but their presence causes confusion, the church is certainly not edified. Again Paul said, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God” (I Cor. 10:31). To cause confusion among brethren is not to the glory of God.

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Donnie Cruz
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Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison …

December 15 2003, 6:48 AM 

An announcement from the CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP Guide dated December 14, 2003.
Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for
the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish
him well and look forward to his return!


This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address on Dec 15, 2003 10:42 AM

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Donnie Cruz
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Will the “church” office of “WORSHIP LEADER” be taking a sabbatical from Madison … too?

December 16 2003, 5:43 AM 

[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. [8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. (I Corinthians 12, KJV)

[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (I Corinthians 12, KJV)

[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (I Corinthians 13, KJV)

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. (Ephesians 4, KJV)

Stephen Vail led the singing at the first assembly (8:00 a.m.) on December 14, 2003.
Kevin Dunnebacke, with the Praise Team, led the singing at the contemporary musical worship (10:30 a.m.).

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Kenneth Sublett
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December 16 2003, 3:09 PM 

Do you remember that Madison self destructed? The ConcernedMembers began as a way to identify what was happening and give a place for ANYONE to respond either for or against.

We noted that the Saddle Back Plan or the Purpose Driven Cult--Now infiltrated all of the way to Hohenwald--was to INFILTRATE and DIVERT the church to turn it into "a theater for Holy Entertainment." That really means that Baptists, Presbyterians or the Church of God has INFILTRATED and using the old WARMTH AND LOVE scam changed the shepherds into wolves who BREAK DOWN THE WALLS.

The Madison elders and the preacher AFFIRMED the plan and even Judaized so far as to USE "Levitical singers" who mocked the types of Lord Jesus Christ and the TITHE which denounces the Atonement.

Now, I am informed that they have again tried to DIVERT the Concerned Members rather than "give an answer."

They bought up Isn't that as cunningly crafty as a slug?

They HOPE to divert traffic from to THEIR counterfeit.

We have posted a page which will further explore how Christians can be so DIVERSIVE and DIVISIVE to try to silence anyone who DARES to protest.

TAKE A LOOK and LOOK OFTEN because we will post information about what is happening on the HONEST FORUM.

Ken Sublett

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Donnie Cruz
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The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader

September 6 2004, 4:22 AM 

So, the office of a WORSHIP LEADER, identified as the “leader” who leads the “regular followers” into the “holy” presence of God, is no longer an alarming thing to the New Testament church? Maybe … maybe not…. Much has already been said about the evolution of the WORSHIP LEADER concept in the initial post above. So, let’s move on to Madison’s current situation.

All the while, since his return from sabbatical, Keith Lancaster has been the Worship Leader in the “contemporary worship services” at 10:30am every Sunday. Meanwhile, both Kevin Dunnebacke and Stephen Vail had been alternating the role of “song leader” at the 8:00 a.m. assembly. [No, I’m not seeking any explanation nor drawing any definitive conclusion at this time as to why Worship Leader Keith is not “performing” or assuming the “leadership” role for the entire congregation—i.e., both assemblies.] But see if you notice the most recent pattern at the early gathering:
    July 18, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
    July 25, 2004—Stephen Vail
    Aug. 01, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
    Aug. 08, 2004—Stephen Vail
    Aug. 15, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
    Aug. 22, 2004—Stephen Vail
    Aug. 25 (Wednesday—see below)
    Aug. 29, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
    Sept. 5, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
Oops! No, the above is not a misprint. On August 27, 2004, I received the following information:
    “Steven Vail’s employment was terminated at Madison Wednesday [Aug. 25] … ‘he will be seeking other opportunities.’”
… to which I responded:
    “It’s a shame that this has occurred. In my opinion (and I’m not sure what yours is … at this stage [???????]), Madison should have terminated … um … what’s his face … Keith Lancaster. I think it’s a fair assessment that Keith is a much greater “expenditure” for Madison than Stephen was/is. The action is a clear indication of where the “new” leadership is taking the congregation to.”
Well, at this point, I’m not getting into the rest of my conversation regarding the “power play by Keith” or about “Keith and Buck” or the “threat to his position,” etc. Perhaps, later on….

For now, it’s sad to see the right person gone … or the wrong person staying … whatever!


P.S.: Unless the above information is proven to be incorrect, it will not be retracted.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader

September 13 2004, 3:05 AM 

According to the “worship” guide, on:
    Sept. 12, 2004—Keith Lancaster (contemporary “Worship Leader”) was also the “Worship Leader” at 8:00am (“traditional”), instead of Kevin Dunnebacke. Well, so far, no one has denied that Stephen Vail’s employment was terminated. We’ll also see next Sunday and following, if Kevin will be back again to lead singing at 8:00 o’clock.
FYI, so far Keith has made the traditional folks “happy”—it’s part of the scheme. Of the 9 songs, all were hymns except one.


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader

September 14 2004, 3:39 AM 

CORRECTION: I have received word from someone who believes “the reason that Mr. Lancaster led both services was that Kevin was out of town this weekend...”

What a relief … it was not a permanent replacement after all!

In addition [the “other” word received]: “There is a definite disconnect between Bruce and Keith.... The underlying tension is growing....”

Well, it makes sense! It used to be that God’s “messenger” delivered His message, and it was a moment of great anticipation among the brethren to hear from God’s word. Today, that is still true to some extent. However, the emphasis is the holy entertainment in MUSICAL WORSHIP. There’s someone else who’s taken over and leads the “regular” folks into the “holy” presence of God—the Worship Leader RULES!


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader

September 21 2004, 2:55 AM 

The correction pointed out to me that Mr. Keith Lancaster, the contemporary Worship Leader, was the “worship leader” at the early [8:00 o’clock] gathering last Sunday (Sept. 12) because Kevin was out of town was valid. Kevin Dunnebacke was back in town and led singing in the early assembly on Sept. 19. Thanks, Kevin, you’re back.

[Did anyone notice that the “CALL TO WORSHIP” portion of the choreographed contemporary worship program had the name of the Worship Leader misspelled as follows: “Ketih Lancaster”? I realize it’s some very insignificant news to tell—and please ignore me, forgive me—but I still have moments of pleasure in saying Ketih … Ketih. Just kidding, OK? Christians, let’s laugh once in a while—laughter is still the best medicine in the world!]

The “musical worship service” during the contemporary assembly under the guidance of Keith was performance-oriented as usual. I really mean “performance-oriented” because I or anyone should wonder what REAL “congregational singing” would be like without the dominant and overpowering Praise Team members being present, of course, with their individual hand-held microphones. Remember, THEY are THE Praise Team whereas ALL THE OTHERS in the assembly are NOT the Praise Team. Please, please make a note of the differences in the tasks—either one is a member of the Praise Team or one is not a member of the Praise Team.

Keith was in his usual charismatic-driven mode this past Sunday, Sept. 19. In case you didn’t know, he creates this concert-like atmosphere in the worship musical. The spirited singing of “Awesome God” would literally draw many in the audience to some long-minute applause!!! He has a way of jazzing up musical pieces and initiating rhythmic clapping. In other words, this kind of spirited experience seems to be how Keith interprets worshipping the Father “in spirit and in truth.” Wow!

Guess what? Keith got a dose of his own medicine this past Sunday. He wants everyone in the audience to be “charismatic”! Right!?! Well, a Pentecostal woman visitor took Keith’s prescription. After the singing of a contemporary “praise” song that had the words “ain’t no rock … ain’t no bird … ain’t no tree …,” the woman uncontrollably was screaming, “Hallelujah, Praise the Lord; I love you, Lord!” She did so again [“Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! I love you, Lord”] after the singing of another song that only the following “Love Feast” could drown out her screaming.

Perhaps, a lesson for Keith regarding his leading God’s people in His holy presence…? Perhaps not!


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Kenneth Sublett
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The word is AWFUL--A consuming fire!

September 21 2004, 11:05 AM 

The Britannica notes of charisma:

    Charisma: attribute of astonishing power and capacity ascribed to the person and personality of extraordinarily magnetic leaders. Such leaders may be political and secular as well as religious. They challenge the traditional order, for either good or ill.

    The word derives from the Greek charis ("grace") and charizesthai ("to show favour"), connoting a talent or grace granted by the divine. The term came into scholarly usage primarily through the works of the German sociologist Max Weber (1864–1920), especially his On Law in Economy and Society (1921),
      in which he postulated that charismatic authority was a form of authority distinct from those of tradition and law.

    The process whereby charismatic authority becomes transformed, or changed, to any of the other forms of authority (such as bureaucracy) is referred to by Weber as the "routinization of charisma."

    Typically, the charismatic leader can demand and receive complete devotion from his or her followers. The foundation of charismatic authority is EMOTIONAL, not rational: it rests on trust and faith, both of which can be BLIND and uncritical. Unrestrained by CUSTOM, RULES, or PRECEDENT, the charismatic leader can demand and receive unlimited power.

    In the original sense of the word, only such phenomenal personages as Jesus or Napoleon would merit the description charismatic, but in current usage, the term is applied more broadly to popular political leaders and CULT organizers alike: John F. Kennedy, Eva Perón, and cult leader Charles Manson—all have been labeled charismatic.

Of course, Jesus being a "Christian" SPOKE with authority but He cast out the charismatic PRAISE SINGERS like DUNG. Perhaps because THEY called Him the DUNGY GOD.

God is not AWESOME: God is AWFUL!


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Donnie Cruz
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Simulating the Musical Sounds

September 13 2004, 3:10 AM 

In a transitioning “a cappella” church, one transitional ploy is rhythmic clapping during singing—sort of an emulation of musical instrumentation. I have yet to hear “a cappella” clapping or clapping produced by the vocal cords and the larynx. This should be a great question to ask Madison’s Worship Leader, Keith Lancaster, who owns The Acappella Company and at the same time is a highly-salaried employee of the Madison congregation, whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence. [I had to catch my breath.] Ask him what the difference is between the non-vocal clapping NOISE and the sound of a musical instrument. Also ask him if loud rhythmic clapping is more (or less) irritating and annoying than the piano.

Another ploy is humming. The audience is not aware when this is going to occur—the “worship” program or guide does not indicate this. That’s right … the Praise Team that performs the humming either knows beforehand or is directed by the “Worship Leader” when to begin humming. Yes, it then results in a performance. Right!? The “Worship Leader” needs to be informed that humming violates Colossians 3:16 that says—“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”

The question is—if musical instrumentation does not admonish, does humming or clapping? Actually, why do the Praise Team members waste their time and others’ with their unintelligible humming when they could just as well sing [say] the words, eh?


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Estill B.
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Re: Job Description

September 21 2004, 1:09 PM 

Bro. Cruz,

I have a question about your above post. You say that Bro. Lancaster's "main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence..."

I could not find this on Madison's website nor Acappella's website. Do you have a copy of his job description? If so, would you post it, please?

E. B.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Job Description

September 22 2004, 4:32 AM 

E. B.,

You’re correct … you would not find Keith’s job description on either website. Is there really any reason why—and what are the chances that—such websites would publicize private information? I don’t think so … and the chances are nil.

I would recommend taking advantage of the web search technologies that are available today. For example, search on key words “worship leader presence God” and thousands of links will be available to you in seconds. I suspect that the following links would be listed:
Now, you see, the copy of his job description is everywhere!


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(no login)

Then again...maybe not.

September 22 2004, 4:48 PM 

No, his job description would come from Madison not from websites that are only affiliated with Madision in your mind. If you want to battle this, stick to the things they actually say and do.

You're reaching, Donnie.

Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Then again...maybe not.

September 23 2004, 3:10 AM 

B. and E. B.:

Here’s what I said earlier: “… Worship Leader …whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence.” Let me highlight the main point you both are trying to deviate from—“TO LEAD THE REGULAR FOLKS INTO GOD’S HOLY PRESENCE
  • His job description coming from Madison!?! You are correct. OK, I have stated my case. Now, it’s your turn to verify my facts by requesting a copy of his job description directly from Madison, and you can explain to the leaders your purpose for asking.

  • “Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.” That’s an interesting statement from you, B. It is common knowledge that only the opposition would think that an argument is erroneous. You said, “your strong ones [arguments]”—just about the only positive note coming from you, B, and I thank you for noticing my “strong arguments.”

  • I did not mention “resume”; the job description can be found in published books and manuals and on the internet.

  • Go for it, if you think you really need a worship facilitator to lead you into the HOLY presence of God—that’s your prerogative.
What others say:
  • “I am the leader of our assembly and I lead in worship each week. Before we start we invite the Presence of the Holy Spirit in and then blow the shofar. As we enter into His [the Holy Spirit’s] Presence, and it's all about Him [the Holy Spirit] we almost always experience His [the Holy Spirit’s] Presence in our midst. Healings, salvations, the presence of angels, etc….” (Bruce Hachey:

  • On “Worship Strategies”: “Clap your hands and shout with a loud voice … so if the church belongs to Jesus, it says in the word of God that what we must clap our hands….” (By Andre, South Africa:

  • “So, remember when you lead the people in Worship. You are ushering them into the presence of GOD. Then GOD defeats the spiritual enemies.” (Larry Don Dunn:

  • Gayle D. Erwin on “The Worship Leader Mystique”: “… the worship leader takes on a much more important role because now worship typically lasts longer. However, the new longer role of the leader creates a certain territoriality that has brought division in more than one church I know. Whenever the worship leader begins to feel that the worship service belongs to him and that his worship understanding surpasses that of the pastor [Protestant, dc], trouble has arisen that will usually mean the exit of the worship leader. Sometimes, worship leaders feel that they are more in touch with what the Holy Spirit is doing than the pastor [cf.] is. Often they resent turning the service over to the pastor [cf.] because they feel that worship is going so well that to stop it for some other part of the schedule would be to quench the Spirit. That is an erroneous assumption that comes from a misunderstanding of what he is actually supposed to do.”

    Hmmm! Sounds like some internal conflict.

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Estill B.
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Re: Job Description

September 23 2004, 5:30 AM 


If the term "worship leader" is found in conjunction that often with "leading (others) into God's presence," why would we not find that on Madison's website, or even Acapella's?

Maybe it's because neither Bro. Lancaster nor the elders at Madison subscribe to that philosophy.

Bro. Cruz, there's plenty of other stuff to discuss without raising arguments that don't exist.

E. B.

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There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.

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Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't know what happened.
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Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.

It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word of Jesus Christ.

At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly realm.

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At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the "Community Church Movement"

Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready, or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the plans very nature, it had to be secret.

The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last 15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.

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