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Kenneth Sublett
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Musical Mediator

September 22 2004, 11:02 PM 

I have never run across an exception to the most ancient superstition: that musicians can lead you into the presence of the "gods." And they charge you, too. Here is the opening shot which is not posted on the internet anymore. I did not use carnal weapons (lifeless instruments) when I began fighting the principalities and powers in high places. One of the earliest TEAMS--about the time of Shelly--claimed that when they PERFORMED they became a LANDING PLATFORM for God. That is what the priests with the collection plate at the top of the Towers of Babylon preached. They said that your chances were very good of meeting the "gods" or "angels' ascending and descending the platforms representing the seven wandering stars or planets along with the sun and moon.

Position Title: Worship Facilitation Minister, Music Minister:

Rubel Shelly: "Position Responsibilities: This person will work with volunteer leaders, ministers and staff to coordinate the planning and
    PRESENTATION of worship activities.

    "Sunday worship activities will reflect the diversity of background and worship styles unique to the Woodmont Hills membership.

    "In addition, "seeker" style assemblies will be planned and presented at other times of the week using contemporary music, drama and teaching formats more familiar to the unchurched segment of our community.

Rubel Shelly: In my opinion, the single most important thing to an authentically spiritual life is to learn how to praise God. It CONNECTS us to the source of all things spiritual.

Howard Publishing

"This is some of the finest music available. It has blessed me, taught me, and helped me grow closer to Jesus." Jeff Nelson, worship leader at Oak Hills church in San Antonio, leads the talented Covenant singers in this unique series. The entire selection of contemporary worship and praise songs is taken from the popular Songs of Faith and Praise hymnal. The page numbers from the hymnal are listed on the jacket so that listeners can participate in this rich worship experience. Listeners will be touched, encouraged, and ushered into the presence of God as they listen to and sing with this inspiring worship team.

Keith Lancaster
Shout of Praise
With a unison voice
Sing a song reaching heaven with a
Shout of Praise
As we worship with all of our hearts

With due respect, God said that when HE is in HIS holy temple (me) let all the earth keep silence before Him. Jesus said something about CLOSETS. And Paul said SPEAK and did not even say ODE in the external sense because it is the PLEASURING and EXCITING word Paul outlawed. GOD ISN'T DEEF

Spoken Vocal: [Rubel says that we should HEAR HIM AUDIBLY. When that happens to me I give up coffee.]

"Christ was alive when the world began, yet I myself have seen Him with my own eyes and listened to Him speak. I've touched Him with my own hands. He is God's message of life. This one who is life from God has been showed to us and we guarantee that we have seen Him. I'm speaking of Christ, who is eternal life. He is with the Father and was shown to us.


"Winterfest is the annual national gathering of Christian teens that takes place in Gatlinburg, Tennessee each year in February. The theme this year was "On The Mountain." Once again Jeff Walling was the featured speaker, and he did his usual fantastic job in communicating the gospel in a way that made our kids listen and think! Worship leaders Keith Lancaster and Jerome Williams did a great job leading us into God's presence in praise. Comedian Bob Stromberg was also a big hit.

With all respect to Keith's tender heart, the AOIDING and AEIRO of MUSIC to "lift you up to cut your throat" is (I say again) the meaning of HERESY: they lift you up to CARRY YOU AWAY but not to God's presence but for their own use.

This is not trivial. THEY claim to stand in the holy place (in church architecture) and claim to lead you into God's presence. In fact, ALL ceremonial legalists claim this: "I hope you will be here again at 6 O'clock to meet God." This CLAIMS that they are MEDIATORS between man and God. In Jerusalem this was Zeus and son Dionysus. Their "worship" was musical and erotic and, along with the GYMNASIUM and the idol of Zeus (preachers say Je' Zeus), was the Abomination of Desolation. Or "that makes desolate." Can't you smell the sulphur?

Ken Sublett

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Re: Musical Mediator

September 23 2004, 4:07 PM 

I found the rest of the PROCUREMENT ORDER:

In seeking their worship facilitation minister, Woodmont Hills stress that in developing or facilitating the seeker service he must:

"Work with the worship planning committee, the preaching minister and worship presentation groups (music, drama and technical) to facilitate group worship experiences which will help bring worshipers into the presence of God. (This may have been taken off)

This was posted at But it is now gone!

Experience and Training:

Minimum of Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience in performing arts (music, drama, directing, theatrical programming).

Affinity for wide range of musical a capella styles (classical to contemporary).

Well developed personal theology of worship.

Experience in planning and presenting worship activities.

Program planning and coordination experience.

Adept in committee work and cooperative work experiences.

Rubel Shelly: Praise ought to be in relevant words and images, and it needs to be set to contemporary music. (Rubel Shelly and Randy Harris, The Second Incarnation, p. 136)

For a more complete understanding of ancient Greek influences on the ancient and modern churches Click Here.

Facilitation means 2. Psychologically increased ease of performance of any action resulting from the lessening of nerve resistance by the continued successive application of the necessary stimulation." (Webster).

See the whole NEW WINESKIN proposal:

Ken Sublett

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September 22 2004, 5:06 PM 

Quote from Donnie

The “Worship Leader” needs to be informed that humming violates Colossians 3:16 that says—“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”


If humming violates it, then so does any song that does not teach or admonish one another. That would cover most songs that are directed toward God instead of each other.

You know what else would violate it? Every song that has a bass, tenor, alto or soprano part that does not make sense on its own. You might want to pull out your songbook now and start editing. It's probably going to take a while.

Humming doesn't violate anything! A violation of that scripture would be not "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms hymns and spirtual songs". That doesn't mean that EVERY song has to teach and admonish. Better yet, start reading some of the posts on this website. How many of them teach and admonish, and how many of them tear down individuals? Any scriptures we can reference on that issue?

We're losing focus on the real issue here. Instrumental music does not follow the pattern of the New Testament. Let's not weaken our stance on that by using easily defeated arguments on lesser issues of personal taste.

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Kenneth Sublett
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Re: What?

September 24 2004, 1:11 PM 

B? Interesting: the HUMMING noise includes that of the BEES. Or the sound of rushing waters or the low hum of an army on their way to destroy you or the HUMMING of then thousand bow strings being TWITCHED to make you panic and run.

Isn't this the old NEW STYLE logic? "I know that I should not HUM and irritate people but YOU are another one: you use a toothpick at the love feast." Won't work. You are correct: just about nothing has to do with TEACHING "that which is written" which NO ONE can misunderstand without wanting to. However, these FAILURES will not make people feel MOLESTED.

To fool the paying fools the soothsayer Hippolytus says that:

First, first produces a sound that the (attendant) youth may be TERRIFIED; and secondly, he makes a HUMMING noise; then, thirdly, he speaks through the instrument what he wishes the youth to say, and remains in expectation of the issue of the affair; next, he makes those present remain still, and directs the (attendant) to signify, what he has heard from the DEMONS.
    But the instrument that is placed beside his ears is a natural instrument, viz., the windpipe of long-necked cranes, or storks, or swans. And if none of these is at hand, there are also some different artificial instruments (employed); for certain pipes of brass, ten in number, (and) fitting into one another, terminating in a narrow point, are adapted (for the purpose), and through these is spoken into the ear whatsoever the (magician) wishes.

    And the youth hearing these (words) with terror as uttered by demons, when ordered, speaks them out.
Anything which disturbs or disquiets people absolutely "grinds" them into bits [the meaning of psallo or melody or SOP]. Humming by the team INTENDS to add some mind altering ingredient which THEY hallucinate makes them sound PROFESSIONAL and INSTRUMENTAL.
    Hamah (h1993) haw-maw'; a prim. root [comp. 1949]; to make a loud sound (like Engl. "HUM"); by impl. to be in great commotion or tumult, to rage, war, moan, clamor: - clamorous, concourse, cry aloud, be disquieted, loud, mourn, be moved, make a noise, rage, roar, sound, be troubled, make in tumult, tumultuous, be in an uproar.

    Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah. Ps.46:3

    Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters Is.17:12

    But they that escape of them shall escape, and shall be on the mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them mourning, every one for his iniquity. Eze.7:16

Some Greek WORDS involving HUMMING. Notice that the words APOLLO, the HARP (which hums or murmurs as well as twangs), the ROARING LION and the TETTIX which are the LOCUSTS of Apollo or Abaddon or musical performers or sorcerers or parasites."

bombos, ho, booming, HUMMING.. buzzing in the ears, rumbling in the intestines
    êchos, ho, later form of êchê, tettix or the locust, ringing in the ears,

      And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves ROARING; Luke 21:25

      Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Pe.5:8

      These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Jude 1:12

      Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 1:13

      Epaphrizo (g1890) ep-af-rid'-zo; from 1909 and 875; to foam upon, i.e. (fig.) to exhibit (a vile passion): - foam out.

      Aphrizo (g875) af-rid'-zo; from 876; to froth at the mouth (in epilepsy): - foam.

      Watch for that "egg white" flinging out of the mouths of the PERFORMANCE preachers and SANGERS and you will 'no wat i mean.'

    tettix, Choerob. in Theod.1.292 H.), ho, cicala, Cicada plebeia or allied species, a winged insect fond of basking on trees, when the male makes a chirping or clicking noise by means of certain drums or 'tymbals' underneath the wings. They were thought to sing continually without food or drink,or on a diet of AIR and dew.... sing of, celebrate with SONG.

    These were called the MUSICAL PROPHESIERS.
bombeô ( [bombos] ) make a booming noise; the stone flew HUMMING through the air, HUM, of bees, of mosquitoes, BUZZ, generally of sound, buzz in one's ears,

teretisma, atos, to, a HUMMING, twanging, phormingôn (harp) chirruping of cicadas or LOCUSTS.

phorminx, the instrument of Apollo, phormingos Apollôn. Metaphor for a BOW

Remember that psallo translated MELODY has nothing to do with MUSIC. You cannot TWANG even a harp string with a PLECTRUM or the piano hammer without EXPLICITLY VIOLATING the meaning of PSALLO. It speaks of TWANGING or twitching the hair out of the head of the enemy or the SOUND of long hair braided into a BOW STRING. The other "musical" connection is that you SHOOT OUT a hymn. Why is it that we CANNOT hold "melody" in the mind long enough to hear Paul say IN YOUR HEART. That means in your SPIRIT or MIND. How do I know that BESIDES just reading Paul's clear words? I remember that Jesus said that God only SEEKS worship in the PLACE of the human SPIRIT or MIND. This represents the Most Holy Place where any HUMMER would get executed before he got past the now-torn partition.

HUMMING creates anxiety in the "audience" which is the meaning of ODEING in the external sense. That is why Paul said SPEAK. Remember? Or "glorify God with ONE VOICE and ONE MIND" by TEACHING "that which is written." If people persist in violating Paul's explicit commands they WILL NOT be holding synagogue and I don't know whether that is any more of a sin than in Amos and Isaiah where they STARVED people to death for lack of the WORDS of God.

I truly believe that anyone who believes that you worship a HOLY SPIRIT God "in your flesh" with MUSIC simply has never become a DISCIPLE of Jesus. That is why we still read SPEAK or TEACH and translate it MAKE MUSIC with our pleasure centers. If we violate EVERY command and principle in the Bible that would not give DIVINE PERMISSION for show offs to HUM like little buzzing LOCUSTS thinking that SPIRIT ABRADING shows TALENT. If God had commanded music "to BRANG more souls to Christ" I would bet my life that the doctors of the Law would produce a MAJOR called "God is in His holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before HIM." The explosion of NEW STYLE MUSIC just proves that it is wrong and even evil.

Ken Sublett

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You don't know me as well as you think.

September 24 2004, 3:48 PM 

Quote from Donnie:

B. and E. B.:

Here’s what I said earlier: “… Worship Leader …whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence.” Let me highlight the main point you both are trying to deviate from—“TO LEAD THE REGULAR FOLKS INTO GOD’S HOLY PRESENCE.”

His job description coming from Madison!?! You are correct. OK, I have stated my case. Now, it’s your turn to verify my facts by requesting a copy of his job description directly from Madison, and you can explain to the leaders your purpose for asking.

“Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.” That’s an interesting statement from you, B. It is common knowledge that only the opposition would think that an argument is erroneous. You said, “your strong ones [arguments]”—just about the only positive note coming from you, B, and I thank you for noticing my “strong arguments.”

I did not mention “resume”; the job description can be found in published books and manuals and on the internet.

Go for it, if you think you really need a worship facilitator to lead you into the HOLY presence of God—that’s your prerogative.


First of all, you said that was Keith's job description, not the generic job description for a worship leader. I don't need a copy of Keith's job description, since I didn't attempt to post one online without having it. I don't know if they would give you one, but if you really want one ask Madison for it.

Second, my only opposition is to statements that can't be backed up by fact. In matters of scripture, I'm actually a pretty conservative guy. You would be suprised to find out that I have never attend a congregation with a "worship leader" or a "praise team". I have never pushed for one at a congregation either. I personally don't like praise teams (personal taste), but my only scriptural issue with them is if they include women. I don't believe an all male praise team is any less scriptural than a single male songleader (although I still prefer not to have a praise team at all). I do see the value in having the same songleader each week. It gives the congregation an opportunity to learn his nuances which in turn takes more of the "musical" thinking out of worship and allows more concentration on the words. Here's the point: when you make assumptions about the thoughts and motives of others, it only serves to weaken your valid points. You can hang your hat on a capella singing. Power point, however, is not an evil invention.

Here's my problem. New songs vs. old songs, songleader vs. worship leader vs. praise team has much more to do with personal tastes than it does with scripture. Whether you read the words to a song out of a book or off of a screen doesn't change the fact that you're reading the words to a song. Whether the song is in 4 part harmony or unison doesn't change whether you're singing praises to God. Whether a song was written by L.O. Sanderson or a Baptist worship leader doesn't affect its being scriptural or unscriptural. We could all sing a perfectly scriptural song that has been adapted from a Beatles tune. Musical taste is not an issue of scripture. The New Testament church wouldn't even know what 728b is.

There are things beyond eating meat sacrificed to idols that we can disagree on. (Although I usually try to stay away from any of that kind of meat.)

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: You don't know me as well as you think. (B, September 24 2004, 3:48 PM)

September 28 2004, 2:57 AM 


I really like your “confession.” I am not going to take time to explain my position on the items you mentioned above. I think we are in agreement on most of them, e.g., that Power Point is not an evil invention. But I’d like to highlight what you said, “You don’t know me as well as you think.” It is good to know where you stand on a number of issues. What about helping us spread the word that we don’t “change for the sake of change” and that change is beneficial so long as it does not alter the truth nor improve upon God’s will for the church?


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Donnie Cruz
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Re: What? (B, September 22 2004, 5:06 PM)

September 27 2004, 2:50 AM 


Humming, just like speaking in tongues, needs interpretation. If it can be interpreted and if meaningful thoughts can be derived from it, then, I will concede that it is not in violation of Colossians 3:16. Also, if humming really serves to teach or admonish one another, then, why not simply hum every song there is—it will make the life of worshippers much easier, won’t it? Also, I’m reminded of what Joel [a poster] has said that just like the “o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o” in singing, often it is difficult when and how one is supposed to do that. Now, the Praise Team members undoubtedly are capable of doing the o-o-o-o-o-o and hum-m-m-m-m because they have practiced or rehearsed their “worship” and have been trained to perform ... which brings us to the “performance” issue! Questions!?!?

I beg to defer—we’re not losing focus on the real issue here. The change agents have a subtle way of achieving their goals. The subtle way is called “incrementalism”: a little humming here and there, a little o-o-o-o-oink-oink here and there, a little rhythmic clapping here and there, a little production of sounds that simulate musical instrumentation, calling it “Praise Team” because the term “choir” is denominational, having a “worship leader” [you should know his “divine” function or task by now], etc. Before you know it, introduction of smooth, pleasant sounding musical equipment in worship is NO LONGER a big surprise!!!


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Re: What? (B, September 22 2004, 5:06 PM)

September 27 2004, 2:25 PM 

Humming and speaking in tongues are not even remotely the same thing.

Again, you're ASSUMING incrementalism. Many of those "increments" are not wrong on their own. It is possible to have a praise team or a projector and NEVER have instruments in your worship service. It is possible to have an "ooing" part in a song (as we have since His Grace Reaches Me was in the old 728b songbook) without ever speaking in tongues. If you are well grounded in scripture, the slope isn't always as slippery as you would make it out to be.

It is unwise to lump everyone into the "Change Agent/Purpose Driven/Whatever other term will be demonized next" group, when some of them aren't heading down that road.

Donnie, this is what I meant when I refered to your weak arguments vs. your strong ones. Several of the arguments you have made assume peoples' intentions or future events. Unless you have some sort of powers we don't know about, you can't KNOW either of those things for fact.

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You are missing the POINT ^

September 27 2004, 4:58 PM 

Donnie, The point IS that PREACHERS, SONG LEADERS, PRAISE TEAMS, WORSHIP LEADERS, PRAYER LEADERS, COMMUNION SPEAKERS (I think I have covered all of the...OH ANNOUNCEMENT MAKERS...could'nt forget that one) ALL are PERFORMACES. All Practice what they are going to say or sing, all do NOT want to make fools of themselves before they get up and do whatever they are going to do, all are self-conscious, all want to do a good job and ALL are concerned what people think! Regardless of what the REAL motivation should be, ALL want to look compitent and sure of what they are saying/singing. say that PERFORMANCE is the issue...well you have just indicted ALL people who get up before ANY kind of assembly on Sunday, Wednesday or any other day.

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Donnie Cruz
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Re: Re: Job Description (Estill B., September 23 2004, 5:30 AM)

September 29 2004, 3:21 AM 

Estill B. states: If the term "worship leader" is found in conjunction that often with "leading (others) into God's presence," why would we not find that on Madison's website, or even Acapella's?

Maybe it's because neither Bro. Lancaster nor the elders at Madison subscribe to that philosophy.

Bro. Cruz, there's plenty of other stuff to discuss without raising arguments that don't exist.

Estill, please correct me if the following information is wrong—I gather from an earlier post of yours that you have actually spoken with Keith Lancaster to try and resolve certain issues “between brothers in Christ.” But as far as I know, you haven’t related to us if your meeting with him was successful. Is this something you can tell us about?

The point I’m trying to make is that when you had your “conversation” with Mr. Lancaster, what did you think was his role in “worship” if he was not Madison’s “worship leader”? It appears that he must have benefited from your “friendly” conversation because you are now his defender. Whether or not that’s the case, I believe you should realize that the term “worship leader”—while it’s not offensive to you—is offensive to many members of the church who wonder how this terminology has evolved. Nowadays, in churches that esteem this office, the Worship Leader is ranked up there. Members may not know who the elders are, but they certainly know the “Worship Leader.” Perhaps, you need to do more research on your own as the term “worship leader” certainly did not originate with the New Testament church—it is a borrowed concept.

E.B., you’re not making sense by expecting the term “worship leader” to appear on the Acappella website. Please think about that.

Give credit to Madison’s website—it has better intelligence than to make a proclamation that “the worship leader leads ‘regular folks’ into God’s holy presence.” What do you think it would accomplish among churches of Christ with that given definition displayed online? Are you aware, though, that it has been (or is still being) advertised in the local newspaper and other publications that Keith Lancaster is the “Worship Leader” during “worship services”?

Give credit to the Madison Marcher also because where it used to frequently print “Worship Leader” or the Praise Teams, it does not anymore. This whole gamut of what may or may not seem controversial falls under the category of “slick operation.” The other word is “deception”—the way it has been throughout the “transformation/transition” of the Madison church into being a “Community Church.”

Whether or not you disagree, the fact remains that the term “worship leader” was an unknown commodity among churches of Christ—in fact, in the religious world, in general—for a long, long time. The terminology has evolved into his/her current, accepted “task” or “function” as one who leads the worshippers into the holy presence of God.

In response to your last statement, I don’t think we should underestimate the impact of the “worship leader” issue. After all, the change agents—in their attempt to transform the New Testament church of Christ into just another denomination—have cleverly and subtly used change in “worship style” [which encompasses the “well-paid services” of the Worship Leader] as a stepping stone towards achieving their objectives. The change agents’ goal is, “Why can’t churches of Christ ‘worship’ just like the way the denominational world does?” The change agents’ trouble maker is, “Why can’t we point out and make it an issue that ‘worship in the 50’s’ is boring, antiquated and obsolescent?” [I can go on and on with this.] But may I remind you that the redefinition of “worship” and the professional employment of the “worship leader” are crucial matters in Rick Warren’s “church growth” scheme. Unfortunately, certain churches, such as Madison, have implemented the scheme that is patterned after the 16,000-member Saddleback Community Church. How soon do we forget the havoc in 2001 during which hundreds of alienated Madison members left?


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Estill B.
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Re: Re: Job Description (Estill B., September 23 2004, 5:30 AM)

September 30 2004, 5:47 AM 

Bro. Cruz,
I have spoken to Bro. Lancaster. I should not/cannot/will not air publicly a private conversation. You know me better than that.

My point in mentioning it is that we all know this is our "first step" when we have something to discuss with our brothers and sisters. Will you do the same?

Donnie: "It appears that he must have benefited from your “friendly” conversation because you are now his defender."

Sorry if you took it that way. I asked where you got his "job description." I was taking you literally...that you had actually seen HIS job description from Madison and was simply asking if you could produce it.


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Kenneth Sublett
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Presence of the "gods"

September 30 2004, 2:10 PM 

E, If I may call you by your first name, If you finally succeed and convince one person that Donnie is a liar that will not change the fact that there is something strange going on up there. "Music" used in what is ignorantly called "worship" has NEVER had any other meaning than to dupe the dopes into the presence of the gods for which you PAY AND PAY AND PAY. The proof is not in the pudding but in the sexual or Vineyard's sexual-like climax with a god or goddess. No one no where no time will EVER find the MUSIC concept remotely connected to anything BUT literally having sex with the gods through her/his AGENTS the priests, encomiasts (praise singers) and prostitutes. No, don't try to pull that old CURSE of the sacrificial system with "noise makers" literally performing EXORCISM as they offered tens of thousands of innocent animals as TYPES or pretend-sacrifices of God in Christ. This kept them from being killed for violating one of the "laws" of Moses which were ADDED BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai.

Leading the children to Canaan land--the killing fields and baby-burning musical performances--is ALWAYS part of using the Levitical "warrior" panic musicians as PROOF that the "Holy Spirit is God's song writer and dance master."
    "WORSHIP MUSIC IN THREE DIMENSIONS - How to Sing Down the Presence and Power of God," was written to help churches bring their congregations into the VERY LAP of God. Impossible, you say? We will teach you how this can come about, by your adapting a musical progression during this time of your worship song service that is called "The Temple Pattern." It involves a simple threefold process of musically moving from the Outer Court (celebration and jubilation) to the Inner Court (meditation and anticipation) and into the Holy of Holies (adoration and spiritual communion).
Don't buy into this blasphemy: it was always called FOREPLAY.

Doesn't Jeff Walling want to DARE TO DANCE WITH GOD. The look-alike models of this popular PATTERNISM is much more sexually explicit.

This will lead you into JEFF'S "leading you Away from the church which PAYS you.

You may want to return and read Donnie's letter which has been read thousands of times. This is to the elders where probably ONE is the problem as the PRAISE LEADER is his "monkey's paw" to pull his nuts out of the fire.

If the Musical Worship Leader is the musical worship leader then a quibbler would deny that he has been HIRED to lead the "audience" into the presence of God.

But Jesus said that as God He will meet with the small groups who "come learn of me" and that worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit. NOT, as Tom would say a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. It was the WARRIOR LEVITES who mocked God in Christ INTO HIS DEATH and not the other way around. Any substitute for giving heed to the Words of Christ in song and sermon IS still leading people OUT OF GOD'S PRESENCE and that needs no proving.

E.B. your job is to red-herring people away from the stated goal of ALL TEAMS: Donnie will keep telling you that THERE IS NO OTHER RATIONALE ever stated except to LEAD the admiring audience using "THE IDOLATRY OF TALENT" SOMEWHERE. I quoted some of Keith's songs which CLAIM that it is into God's presence. If you get hired to PROTEST while the President of the United States is speaking your PROTESTING proves that you want to discredit the President. If, in the words of the Jewish Encyclopedia, you do what Jesus would hear as SCREECHING AND SCREAMING, then why would you insist on a WRITTEN CONTRACT to prove that Keith was hired deliberately as the SCREECH AND SCREAM MINISTER? As is well documented about Mount Sinai "The MUSIC makes the diagnosis of IDOLATRY certain." There is NO OTHER EXCEPTION but that Satan or the "demons" introduced MUSIC to bleed off worship from God.
    "The same movements repeated without number, the volumes of sound, the ornaments and masks, all had one aim, one religious aim--emotional paroxysms in which all present were robbed of their self-possession and thus believed that their wish to secure the favor of the gods had been attained." (Von Hagen, Victory, The Aztec Man and Tribe, p. 97-99, Mentor)
One of the MARKS of the end-time prostitute false worship is MAKEUP just as Satan trained Genun or Jubal (which rimes with Rubel and is the father "without authority" of the Yobel or trumpet and the Jubilee.)

It ALL fits the pattern and it is an ANTI-Christian religion with not a HINT of Christianity as a School of the Bible with no "agents" seeing godliness as a means of financial gain (i.e. occupation).

Ken Sublet

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Talk about coming out of left field

September 30 2004, 11:03 PM 

After Ken's response, I've decided that he's only a monacle and a persian cat away from being the villian in a James Bond film.

There is nothing sexual about worship, and your constant reference to everything sexual and various gyrations and movements is either terribly misguided or just plain sick. I can tell you that people who attend churches with worship leaders, praise teams, etc. don't go there for sexual gratification. There is NO connection there.

Again, your response proves that you either didn't comprehend E.B.'s post or that you only say what you have in mind regardless of others' posts.

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Donnie Cruz
(no login)

Re: Talk about coming out of left field (Bee, Sep 30 2004, 11:03 PM)

October 2 2004, 4:28 AM 


You are an intelligent person, but I think you need help in understanding Ken’s articles better (and mine, too). I realize that any sexual reference in anyone’s writing is easily visible to the “naked” eye. But let’s not stop there. Read further. Find out what the writer means by “MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai" or “sex with the gods and goddesses worshipped” or “securing the favor of the gods” or “the Levitical ‘warrior’ panic musicians” or the “idolatry of talent” or “emotional paroxysm” or “singing down the presence and power of God.” Also know about his contrasting message on meditation, adoration, spiritual communion … when Jesus said, “Come learn of me.”

E.B. is a fine Christian brother. But he knows better than to expect me to actually having seen Mr. Lancaster’s resume or job description [I did not employ his services, remember?] and to ask if I could produce it.


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(no login)


September 14 2005, 10:16 AM 

I ran across your artical as I was searching to find where the term "Worship Leader" came from, what was its meaning and the intent of its position. Your words hit me hard as the Holy Spirit brought to light the ramifications of the points that were addressed. I have since contacted two of my pastors and was pleased when they both saw the implications of your work and agreed to search God's word to confirm my concerns of issues I have seen at our church.

I have continued my research and have come to a point where I need your assistance. In the third paragraph you make reference to the World Council of Churches implementation of the "church growth movement" through the use of the contemporary music format. I have yet to find any documentation of that on the WCC web site. Would you please provide for me a source or web link in order that I may submit that information to my pastors. With the goal of the WCC to have a united one world church, we have no desire to subject God's local church to the subdued infiltration of the enchanter.

Your assistance is greatly appreciated.


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David Rhoades
(no login)


September 20 2005, 6:31 PM 

Thanks Brent for your questions.

The article to which you refer is part of a much larger article titled; "Secret Conversion"

There are many links in this section to the material you will need to review, In particular part 4.

All one has to do is to see that the same globalist that started the UN are the same ones that started the World Council of Churches (National Council as well) to be a "One World Government" and "One World Church" respectively.

Follow the memberships! In order to make their plan succeed they have to have associations, and worker bees.

Look at who those associations are, and how they are preparing the way.

Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members. The Willocreeks, The Saddlebacks, The Promise Keepers, the Catholic Church, and the Christian Church, The Methodists, Billy Graham and on and on. There are many smaller unknown organizations as well.

Even the Church of CHrist which would have never thought about joining the "World Council of Churches" are using their ecumenical materials through Saddleback's "40 Days of Purpose" programs, and even the church of CHrist Sunday school materials has been infiltrated.

One well known publisher, 21st Century Christian, uses materials written by the Christian Church, and then puts their own name on it for resale to the Churches of Christ.

Yes, it's a convoluted mess, that could have only been devised by satan.

We helped though! Dead asleep.



PS I am posting your original question and my followup in the forum at for others to join in.

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Joe Spivy
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Membership in World & National Council of Churches

February 12 2006, 10:34 PM 

Brother Rhoades,

In your post you state:
"Follow the memberships!" and then go on to say (and I've included the whole paragraph for a reason),

"Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members. The Willocreeks, The Saddlebacks, The Promise Keepers, the Catholic Church, and the Christian Church, The Methodists, Billy Graham and on and on. There are many smaller unknown organizations as well."

Later you point out 21st Century Christian puts their name on materials written by the Christian Church.

Since I want to believe you have the best of intentions I'd simply like to point out your statements that I've quoted or mentioned above contain a number of errors. If one goes to the site for the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches links to the "member churches" are readily available.

World Council of Churches:
National Council of Churches:

A quick review of these sites reveals this about members and non-members.

Members of the National Council of Churches: Methodist (four types) and the Christian Church (Disciples)

NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent).

Of the churches you listed, only two are actually members. A great batting average but here it is misleading.

Members of the World Council of Churches (North America) reveals the same.

Simply as a matter of accuracy it would better not to speak of a church or a group of churches holding membership in an organization where they do not have such membership.

Also, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (Independent) have little more in common than the Disciples and the Churches of Christ (non-instrumental). To leave the impression the Disciples and the Independents are the same is, at the very least, a gross misunderstanding of their relationship.

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David Rhoades
(Login ConcernedMembers)

Re: Membership in World & National Council of Churches

February 13 2006, 5:28 PM 

You state above;
"NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent)."

You are assuming that the Catholic Church is not a member, but yet on WCC web site, this is what is stated;

"- The Roman Catholic Church is a full member of many national ecumenical and several regional ecumenical organizations and has a regular working relationship with the WCC."

These memberships and "working relationships" are all a twisting of words.

Maybe I should have said all of these groups have "connections", "memberships", or "working relationships"

Your failure to grasp the impotance of what is happening here,
and your uninformed debunking sets others up worse than my lack of detail.

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Joe Spivy
(no login)

Details, details, details...

February 13 2006, 11:26 PM 

Without conceding your contention that the Roman Catholic Church is a part of the World Council of Churches because the WCC claims on its site it has a "working relationship" (or connection, or whatever)...

OK, now demonstrate how Willowcreek, Saddleback and (especially) the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent Christian Churches) are associated with the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches.

Do you know the difference between Mainline, Evangelical and Fundamentalist Churches? How about those that are normally described as Conservative and Liberal?

Are you aware there is a difference between the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ (who have membership in these organizations) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (who do not and would not have membership in the WCC or NCC)?

Are you aware most Mainline churches (headquarters and individual congregations), who make up the World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches, have little or nothing to do with the Willowcreek Association, Saddleback, etc.? That they pretty uninformly dislike them?

“Your uninformed debunking sets other [sic] up worse than my lack of detail.”

Reminds me of a friend who once pointed out to a speaker, he agreed with his premise but was troubled by his example which was untrue (the gentlemen made specific charges against the family of a man, whom they both considered a heretic, which were demonstrably false). He feared when people became aware of these “details” they might doubt the veracity of his other statements and the conclusions he had drawn.

The gentlemen’s response? Something along the lines of, Don’t bother me with the details, we must defend the truth!

Sir, if truth is unimportant then why defend it? If truth is supported by "untruth" is it really truth? Some of your statements, and the many of the charges made in the editorial you reference, are demonstrably false and misinformed.

For example, Do you even know what the term "church growth movement" refers to? If you say, "marketing the church" or "contemporary worship" then it simply demonstrates you have an uninformed understanding of the term. The fact some people use it in this way doesn't "prove" any more than their lack of understanding. And if you say, "but that's how most people understand the term" then I'll ask you how most people in the world understand "baptism" and then ask you to compare it to what the Bible reveals in the New Testament. Does the majority understanding make it right?

Brother, this whole site points out we can’t keep churches from splitting on a regular basis but you believe some “Big” minions are pushing us toward one “world” church (forging together all those churches on the earth who call themselves Christian). What an interesting contradiction: "division is bad" and "unity is evil."

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David Rhoades
(no login)

Re: Details, details, details...

February 14 2006, 3:12 PM 


If you are not willing to concede that you were wrong concerning the Catholic Church in the above post, then we certainly won't waste our time trying to prove the other connections.

So which is it Joe? Does the Catholic church have some connection, membership, or "working relationship" with the World Council of Churches?

Lets get this straight before we move futher into the "Fruity Loop"

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