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SECRET CONVERSION PART 7
GIVE US A WORSHIP LEADER
One of the signs of the "church growth movement" is the presence of a "worship leader". What is a worship leader?
First, to understand what is happening, you must know about the World Council of Churches. One of its goals is to bring all Churches, Muslin, Christian, Buddhist, Wicca, occultist and pagan religions of all sorts together under one umbrella. They don't hide this.
It was determined around 1962 that the best way to accomplish this goal was through a charismatic and contemporary music format. The best way to implement these changes was through a slow and gradual infiltration, which has become known (among other things) as the "church growth movement."
What we see today, with the rise of the "worship leader," is one of the tools that brings about change in the church. Since "music" is the key to make all this happen, then the "worship leader" will also be the "music" leader.
These people think the word of God needs a little help to reach all the "‘unchurched’ and ‘disenchanted." The "worship leader” has also become a big part of their "outreach ministry."
One of the Deacons at my former church asked the Elders about "worship leaders." Now, these men claim not to be working in "lock step" with the "Church Growth movement," but they sure know about "worship leaders," This what they said:
"IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PLANNING ALL AREAS OF THE WORSHIP SERVICE
AND THEN PRESENTING THESE PLANS TO THE WORSHIP COMMITTEE. THIS INCLUDES
THE LORD’S SUPPER, GIVING, PRAYERS, AND THE READING OF THE LORD,S WORD AS
WELL AS THE SONG SERVICE"(4)
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This is a want ad for a "worship leader:"(3)
Job Description: St Matthew’s Lutheran Church is passionate about reaching out to the richly diverse and secular neighbors whom we share the freeway with. We are looking for a Minister of Worship & Celebration (Lay or Ordained) who is wired to empower heart-felt worship using today’s music, multi-media and the arts. We are a grace driven ministry that relies upon team building to reach those who normally would not check out church. We tend to be a bit irreverent. We bring our coffee into worship and do not tend to attract the squeaky clean. We are looking for a leader who knows it’s not about them
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There are magazines and web sites(3) dedicated to the “worship leader." This has become a big business. Here is an excerpt form a recent article in a "worship leader" magazine telling a little about what they believe:
The Spoken Voice
1. Speaking - Psalm 34:1 says, "I will extol the Lord at all times; his praise will always be on my lips."
2. Shouting - Psalm 27:6 says, "Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord."
3. Singing - Psalm 47:6 says, "Sing praises to God, sing praises to our King, sing praises."
Our Posture
1. Bowing - Psalm 95:6 says, "Come let us bow down in worship, let us kneel before the Lord our Maker."
2. Standing - Psalm 119:120 says, "My flesh trembles in fear of you; I stand in awe of your laws."
3. Dancing - Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp."
Our Hands
1. Playing Instruments - Psalm 33:2, 3 says, "Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy."
2. Clapping - Psalm 47:1 says, "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy."
3. Lifting Hands - Psalm 63:4 says, "I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands."
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They always give David as their license, but, God tells us in Amos 6:5--Woe to those that act like David:
AMOS 6:5
"That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David;"
You may ask, is a "worship leader" Biblical? In a way, they are. You see God created the first "worship leader".
Ezekiel 28:13-16
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering: The sardius, topaz, and diamond, Beryl, onyx, and jasper, Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold. The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you.
16 By the abundance of your trading You became filled with violence within, And you sinned; Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God; And I destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the fiery stones
Note: "tambrels" are tamborines and "pipes" are wind instruments.
It's no wonder that Satan is called the "enchanter." He has been using music from the very beginning to seduce his prey. It started early with the Bablyonian and Egyptian civilizations in which they would dance, clap, sing and play to their gods. The only thing most contemporary Churches are not doing presently is bringing the gods clean cloths everyday.
From the continent of Africa, where Voodoo chants called up the evil spirits to the shores of America , Satan has always been the user of music and the "worship leader" extraordinaire.
Isaiah14:11-12
11 Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, And the sound of your stringed instruments; The maggot is spread under you, And worms cover you.
12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
Let's take a look at how Satan uses others to seduce us with his music:
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From Musician Carlos Santana:
Santana admits that his success is tied to a spiritual entity. Santana also claims that he has contact with the spirits of musicians who have died, such as Jimi Hendrix and Miles Davis. Santana has claimed that other artists who participated on his album, Supernatural, were brought to him supernaturally to be a part of Metatron's project. He claimed that they heard his music, or were communicated to in dreams, and were told they were to be part of the project.(1)
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1)
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Eminem is the most successful artist of the 21st century. His Marshall Mathers LP sold an incredible 1.76 million copies in its first week, which is the highest first-week sale for a solo artist in history:
" I take seven [kids] from [columbine] and stand 'em all in line. Add an AK-47, a revolver, a nine, a Mac-11 and this ought to solve this problem of mine. And that's a whole school of bullies shot up all of the time, 'cause I'm Shady…"
" I take each individual degenerate's head and reach into it, just to see if he's influenced by me, if he listens to music, and if he feeds into this sh**, he's an innocent victim, and becomes a puppet on the string…"
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Rolling Stone admitted:
"A song or an album can change your life; a great concert will change it on the spot."
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Tori Amos, who said that Lucifer sits at her piano and helps her with her music, said:
" Music is the most powerful medium in the world because of the frequencies. You're hitting places in people that remind them that they are more than just this functional being."
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Science writer and composer, Robert Jourdain, wrote in his book, Music, The Brain And Ecstacy:
" Music seems to be the most immediate of all the arts. …Music possesses us. …It really is as if some 'other' has entered not just our bodies, but our intentions, taking us over."
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Medical Dr. and brain specialist, Richard Pellegrino, who is a consultant to the entertainment industry, wrote an article for Billboard Magazine , about the power of music. Dr. Pellegrino speaks of the incomparable power of music upon the human brain, stating that music has the uncanny power to:
"… trigger a flood of human emotions and images that have the ability to instantaneously produce very powerful changes in emotional states."
Pellegrino went on to declare:
" Take it from a brain guy. In 25 years of working with the brain, I still cannot affect a person's state of mind the way that one simple song can."
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Eminem states in his song, Marshall Mathers:
"I think I was put here to…destroy your little 4-year-old boy or girl."
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Frank Zappa, who was quite anti-Christ, said that when he saw a fish on the back of someone's car he identified them as the enemy. He also admitted to the incredible power and influence rock music has over the human race. In an article he wrote for Life Magazine, he stated:
"The ways in which sound affects the human organism are myriad and subtle. The loud sounds and bright lights of today are tremendous indoctrination tools.
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AC/DC was up-front with their fans when they made it clear that they not only found their fame in a rock band by Satan's power, but that they desired to drag their listeners into eternal damnation with them, "if God's on the left, I'm on the right…I'm gonna take ya to hell…I'm gonna get'cha-Satan got 'cha, Hell's Bells…If you're into evil, you're a friend of mine."
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Michael Jackson:
"When I hit the stage it’s all of a sudden a magic from somewhere that comes and the spirit just hits you, and you lose control of yourself."
"I wake up from dreams and go, ‘Wow! Put this down on paper!’ The whole thing is strange. You hear the words, everything is right there in front of your face. And you say to yourself, ‘I’m sorry, I just didn’t write this. It’s there already’. I feel that somewhere, someplace, it’s all been done, and I’m the courier bringing it into the world."
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From these two sites (1)(2) alone I count well over 85 well known and famous music performers in all areas of music, Christian, blues, and Rock N Roll, that profess to be Satanically driven, or use pagan symbolism in their performances.
This list includes people like Robert Johnson-The Father of Blues, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, and even Amy Grant!
Dear Lord, please forgive us for what we have brought into your Church.
You left out some very important satanic references:
It was Van Halen who was "Dancing with the Devil"...
Mitch Ryder who saw the "Devil in a Blue Dress",
and,
"The Devil Went Down to Georgia" with Charlie Daniels,
famous Satan worshipper.
Did you know that if you play "Stairway to Heaven" backwards it says, "The worship leaders are coming to take you away?"
Did you know the old Carpenter's hit "Close to You"
is about the worship leader in a sackcloth drawing near to the tower of Babel?
My personal favorite is the re-working of "Rock of Ages" by Def Leppard.
"Beer Barrel Polka" was written after a jewish bar mitzvah in which a man claimed he was a part of the Alan Parsons Project.
I knew it wouldn't take long to get to the root of our problems....
Elvis and The Beatles....
Thank you for all that you are doing to keep us on the George Strait and narrow....
It had me laughing out loud too. That Dal's a funny guy and very absurd. You accomplished your illustration of absurdity also preacherman as well as immaturity and gleeful ignorance. I especially enjoyed your lines referencing "AWESOME" and "DUDE;DUDE". That sounds to me like the entire subject matter of yours and Dal's rebuttals. This might go to the Vipers Den but thats ok.
Isn't it just TOO PRESSHUSH for words that the "church ladies" who "wore beards" in the early literature to take over the ekklesia (church) in order to add music are NOW working miracles. And they ALL apparently confess that they are INSPIRED by the Devil and many return to Africa the source of later VOODOO.
What? Where? Well with ABSOLUTELY 0 information about MUSIC and the worship of a Spirit God on their side; and with 100% of the Biblical and historical data associating it with SATAN (Lucifer, Zoe) whose AGENTS were prostitutes or perverts, they are ENABLED by ADVANCED SCOUTS to sniff out places where they can WORK THE MIRACLE of the old SHELL GAME FROM HELL.
It is UTTERLY IMPOSSIBLE without "suprnatural help" that most churches--including musical churches--were suddenly INFILTRATED and DIVERTED by the use of PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS whose persona from Eden onward has been of sexual perverts.
Re.13:14 And DECEIVETH them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast (stinging animals); saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound (a PLAGUE) by a sword, and did live.
The DECEIVERS are the WANDERING STARS reserved in judgment. They are the FALLEN ANGELS in all of the literature. When Israel engaged in perverted musical idolatry at Mount Sinai, God TURNED THEM OVER to worship the STARRY HOST. An important deity was Chiun or Saturn whose number is 666.
Jude links these congenital deceivers as VERY OLD AGENTS of Satan to The Book of Enoch. Enoch in turn links all of the EARTHLY ARTS including ENCHANTMENTS (music) to the WANDERING STARS (Dal, do you wander or wonder?). As I have noted, I have collected 36 major historical documents. They ALL link the MIRACLE POWER of SATAN to music and ASSURE US that God "will come with ten thousands of His saints to EXECUTE judgment" on these agents who introduced CHOIRS, INSTRUMENTS, CLERGY ROBES AND SEXUAL PERVERSION. God likewise came with these ten thousand at Mount Sinai and the Jews were under the CURSE of God now seen as the PATTERN for church.
ALL of the Jewish Monarchy period was God picking kings to lead them into CAPTIVITY AND DEATH as the sentence imposed at Mount Sinai because of musical idolatry. As we noted elsewhere they later fornicated and "worshipped" Baal-Peor by defecating in his presence. Psalm 106 repeats this history and says that they ATE these sacrifices. Wow. Maybe that is why Jesus CAST OUT the musical worship team LIKE DUNG??
Isn't it a miracle when David NEVER played instruments and sang as a WORSHIP LEADER? Worship was OUTSIDE THE CAMP in the synagogue or church in the wilderness which began under Moses where music was OUTLAWED.
Here is a typical example of David worshipping IN SPIRIT which is the ONLY PLACE God will meet us:
"I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Ps.77:3
--I call (Mention, burn incense) to remembrance my song (h5058) in the night:
--I commune with MINE OWN heart:
--and MY SPIRIT made diligent SEARCH. Psalm 77:6
SIYACH (H7878) see'-akh; a prim. root; to ponder, i. e. (by impl.) converse (with oneself, and hence aloud) or (trans.) utter: - commune, complain, declare, meditate, muse, pray, speak, talk (with).
Paul REALLY said that we could SPEAK TO OURSELVES if we use the Psalms to teach one another.
For we are the circumcision,
--which worship God IN the spirit,
--and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
--and have NO confidence in the flesh. Phil 3:3
Praying always with all prayer and supplication
--IN the SPIRIT,
--and watching thereunto with all perseverance
and supplication for all saints; Eph 6:18
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith,
--PRAYING IN the Holy Spirit, Jude 20NKJV
I was IN the SPIRIT on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Re.1:10
If the Bible has ANY credibility and if Jesus who called them THE SEED OF THE SERPENT, Cain was OF that Evil one, the SELF-SPEAKERS have the Devil as their "father," Satan fell (having fell) as lightening, the LOCUSTS (musical performers) and on and on, then you HAVE to believe that these MIRACLE WORKERS who can build a world-wide WORSHIP SCHEME on the practice which the Bible and all history says was INTRODUCED BY SATAN then they ARE the END TIME "Wandering Stars."
TheY try to MURDER the truth: don't believe that they will not be 10ERs if need be.
Judas who carried the JUDAS BAG for carrying the mouthpieces or tongues of the flute also speaks of "speaking in tongues" and "of the COSMOS" which belongs to Satan or the Kosmokrator.
SATAN is the father/mother of all musical, spectacle, dramatic "worship" which is IDOLATROUS false "worship." Their goal is to PERVERT the Word (Tithing) on each and every point. Only by being put into a schizophrenic state can the MUSICAL LOCUSTS seduce you and work the "miracle" from hell.
Just read these SMELLING, PERFUMED "song" and you will know what I mean.
The gift of A holy spirit is the gift of a CLEAR CONSCIOUSNESS or co-perception with the Word of Christ. This means that a CHRISTIAN is A DISCIPLE and a LISTENER to Jesus Christ the ONLY Teacher Who DIED to give us the FREE Word which He said "is SPIRIT and LIFE."
As a DISCIPLE the story of Lucifer rings the BELL after one second in the RING.
"All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your HARPS; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you. Is.14:11
--"How you have fallen from heaven, O morning STAR, son of the dawn! You have been CAST down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! Isaiah 14:12
----"For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Isaiah 14:13
------"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:14
IN THE SYMBOLISM OF THE TEMPLE HE WOULD INVADE THE HOLY PLACE AND THE MOST HOLY PLACE TO BE ONE OF THE CHERUBIM AGAIN. TAKING SINGERS OR MUSICIANS INTO THE "TYPE OF THE CHURCH" AND THE "HEAVENLY TABERNACLE" WAS A MORTAL SIN.
IN THE NEW TESTAMENT JESUS DEMANDS THAT ONLY HE SITS ON THE THRONE AND WE EITHER LISTEN TO LUCIFER THROUGH HIS MUSICIANS OR WE LISTEN TO JESUS CHRIST.
SO DON'T WORRY THAT THE "PREACHER-CREATURE" RESPONSE IS TO DESPISE YOUR BIBLICAL TEACHING.
"He that heareth you heareth me; and he that DESPISETH you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth HIM that SENT me. Luke 10:16
---And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the DEVILS are subject unto us through thy name. Luke 10:17
THESE ARE THE SAME DEMONS PAUL IN 1 COR 10 WARNED ABOUT. ISRAEL WORSHIPED THESE DEMONS WHEN THEY ROSE UP TO PLAY WHICH MEANS MUSICAL IDOLATRY WHICH ALWAYS SPOKE OF SEXUAL PERVERSION. For instance, you can CAST OUT THE TITHING DEMON just by exposing the PUBLICAN as a liar and repudiator of Jesus Christ and therefore a repudiator of God.
WHEN SATAN FALLS AFTER BEING SWATTED BY THE "SWORD OF THE SPIRIT" HE MAKES A LOT OF INARTICULATE GROANS AND CURSES BUT HE FALLS LIKE A TALL CEDAR TREE (ASSYRIA WAS THE "TALLEST" TREE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN)
----"And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning FALL from heaven. Luke 10:18
THE LIGHTENING IS LIKE A SHOOTING STAR:
Astrape (g796) as-trap-ay'; from 797; lightning; by anal. glare: - lightning, bright shining.
Astrapto (h797) as-trap'-to; prob. from 792; to flash as lightning: - lighten, shine.
STICKS (BATS) AND STONES MIGHT CRACK YOUR BONES BUT WORDS WILL NOT BLEED AWAY YOUR POWER THROUGH SPEAKING THE WORD:
---"Behold, I give unto you power to TREAD on serpents (artful malicious person) and SCORPIONS, and over all the power of the enemy (SATAN): and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luke 10:19
A SCORPION IS:
--Skorpios (g4651) skor-pee'-os; prob. from an obsol. skerpo, (perh. strengthened from the base of 4649 (skeptic) and mean. to PIERCE); a "scorpion" (from its sting): - scorpion.
IN JOHN'S WORLD OF PATMOS HE COULD SEE THE GRAVE ISLAND OF "CIRCE" AS THE HOLY WHORE WHO USED MUSIC AND DRUGS (MAGICAL ENCHANTMENTS) TO SEDUCE AND THEN TURN HER DISCIPLES INTO "BEASTS" WHO LIVE IN THE DUST.
IN THE CLASSICAL MYTHS THE MUSES (REV 18) WERE SENT INTO SHEOL AS LOCUSTS. THEY WOULD BE RESURRECTED AS END-TIME "LOCUSTS": THEY WERE KNOWN AS "MUSICAL PERFORMERS" WHO PIERCED OR POLLUTED YOU WITH THEIR TAILS. UH! they also had "long hair" like scraggly beards?
A FLUTE RELATED TO LUCIFER, HALAL OR "VILE PRAISE" IS NAMED BECAUSE IT IS POLLUTED OR PIERCED:
--Chaliyl (h2485) khaw-leel'; from 2490; a flute (as PERFORATED): - pipe.
----2490 is to make self vile, to STEAL one's inheritance, to play the FLUTE, to pollute or PROSTITUTE.
YOU SEE, PART OF THE STINGING OF THE LOCUSTS WITH SCORPION TAILS IS TO CHASE YOU OUT OF YOUR CHURCH IF YOU HAVE THE "MARK OF THE WORD." HOWEVER, THOSE ALREADY MARKED BY THE STING OF MUSIC- INDUCED DRUGS ARE KEPT IN PLACE AND "TORTURED" MUCH LONGER. SURE, MUSIC WORKS BECAUSE THE "HIGH" IS PRODUCED BY "TORTURE" LIKE A RUNNER'S HIGH. Music "stings" you and injects a morphine- like drug through their "used needles."
THEY ARE MARKED BY SELF- CONFESSION OF BEING LIBERAL:
Skorpizo (g4650) skor-pid'-zo; appar. from the same as 4651 (through the idea of penetrating); to DISSIPATE, i.e. (fig.) put to FLIGHT, waste, be LIBERAL: - DISPERSE abroad, SCATTER (abroad).
IN THE END TIMES THE CHURCH OR CIRCE AS "HOLY WHORE"
--"And there came out of the smoke (Adulterate, a huckster) locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power ("public power"), as the scorpions of the earth have power. Rev 9:3
IN THE "DUDE" WORLD OF THE LOCUSTS PAUL DECLARED "I DON'T BLOW SMOKE."
--"For we are not as MANY, which CORRUPT the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we IN Christ. 2Co.2:17
JESUS IDENTIFIED THOSE WHO "SPEAK ON THEIR OWN" AS BEING OF THEIR "FATHER" THE DEVIL. HE SAID THAT THE SELF-SPEAK OF THE PHARISEES MADE THEM LIARS AND "THE SEED OF VIPERS."
LUCIFER WAS THE "WORSHIP LEADER" IN HEAVEN. HE DECIDED THAT HE COULD SEDUCE THE SPIRITUAL HOST. GOD, STEPPED ON HIS HEAD LIKE A RATTLESNAKE AND CAST (LIKE DUNG) HIM OUT OF HEAVEN.
HE BROUGHT HIS MUSICAL ENCHANTMENTS AS "WORSHIP LEADER" INTO THE GARDEN OF EDEN AND "WHOLLY SEDUCED" EVE WHILE "ADAM WENT WILLINGLY." OLDER WRITERS IN THE PERIOD OF THE "ORIGINAL" HEBREW OR CHALDEE IDENTIFY THE MUSIC-INDUCED "WORSHIP" AS SODOMY. THE SAME THING THEY TRIED ON JESUS WHEN THEY PIPED--JUST LIKE PROPHESIED IN PSALM 41. AND JUST LIKE WITH THE MIDIANITES AND BAAL- PEOR.
DON'T GO NEAR NO "WORSHIP LEADER": He is SEEKING worship for HIMSELF and HIS WORD, and therefore REPUDIATES JESUS which REPUDIATES GOD TOTALLY.
JESUS GAVE US POWER TO TREAD ON SPIRITUAL LOCUSTS (MUSICAL PERFORMERS WITH A PLAGUE-GIVING STING IN THEIR 'TAIL'] AND ALL THEY CAN 'SING' IS THE SQUEAK OF A LOCUST. THEIR FATHER (LUCIFER) OR MOTHER (ZOE) WOULD AT LEAST MISQUOTE SOME SCRIPTURE.
DON'T EVER BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE NOT SPRAYING ROACH POWDER. When the church emerges out of the SMOKE blown by JUBILEE and sister HOSTILE ASSUALTS nothing in history of music as an attack upon God's WORD gives them any hope of repenting (Heb 6)
The NASHVILLE CHURCH which still hasn't added CHRIST back into their title have written an interesting article which FITS MADISON. READ IT:
http://www.nashvillechurch.org/
Madison's elders are going to have to face it sooner or later!!
We have noted that some of the earliest sneak thieves stealing non-insrumental churches have strong CROSS ROADS roots. The Tulsa Workshop began with strong Boston Church of Christ or the International Church of Christ leanings.
Christianity Today announces that Kip McKean the leading light-snuffer after Chuck Lucas has resigned. Personal and family problems caused him to ZERO OUT. Of course, all CHURCH GROWTH schemes are built as a CULT of strong central leadership.
"Baird, the icoc's top spokesman, said the changes taking place at the icoc are "not over doctrinal issues, but over growth issues." RightCyberUp says that from 1999 to 2001, for every five people baptized into the icoc, another four left, causing the movement's high rate of growth to decline sharply."
Guess what! They have discovered that congregational autonomy might have been right all along. Of course with movements such as JUBILEE and the MUSICAL MENTORING of worship leaders the intention is to GROW a group depending on headquarters. In the end they all contain the SEED OF THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
Here is a search result in chase you need RECOVERY:
About the time the Laughing Revival, the Jubilee, the Cane Ridge Restoration and others began, the Crossroads group made a new push. You might want to check the pedigrees of some of your INFILTRATORS and DIVERTERS. Some of them seem unusually bound to Don Finto and Rubel Shelly who with Flatt and a little help from their friend-Max Lucado-seemed like were trying to organize ALL CHRISTENDOM as the first SECTARIANIZING the church with music.
Re: Give Us [an unauthorized] WORTHLESS LEADER (Kenneth Sublett) April 3 2003, 12:08 PM
April 9 2003, 5:52 PM
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KENNETH STATES: LISTEN TO EITHER LUCIFER THROUGH HIS MUSICIANS OR JESUS CHRIST
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[[[“““The gift of “a” holy spirit is the gift of a CLEAR CONSCIOUSNESS or co-perception with the Word of Christ. This means that a CHRISTIAN is a DISCIPLE and a LISTENER to Jesus Christ the ONLY Teacher Who DIED to give us the FREE Word, which He said "is SPIRIT and LIFE."
As a DISCIPLE, the story of Lucifer rings the BELL after one second in the RING.
“[11] Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. [12] How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! [13] For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: [14] I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.” (KJV: Isaiah 14)
In the SYMBOLISM of the TEMPLE, he would invade THE HOLY PLACE and THE MOST HOLY PLACE to be one of the cherubim again. Taking SINGERS OR MUSICIANS into the "TYPE” of the CHURCH and the "HEAVENLY TABERNACLE" was a MORTAL SIN.
In the NEW TESTAMENT, JESUS demands that ONLY HE sits on the THRONE, and EITHER: (1) WE LISTEN TO LUCIFER THROUGH HIS MUSICIANS, or (2) WE LISTEN TO JESUS CHRIST.””” … Kenneth Sublett]]]
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BUT MR. SUBLETT: FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY AND EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, GOD DID “GIVE US” APOSTLES, EVANGELISTS AND WORSHIP LEADERS.
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Sorry for misquoting! In what we call the Lord’s prayer in Matthew chapter 6, the portion that states, “Give us this day our daily bread,” reminds me of the topic of this thread, “GIVE US A WORSHIP LEADER.” Of course, that same passage speaks of: our praying to our Father in secret, not using vain repetitions, and not acting as hypocrites in fasting.
Kenneth, I’d go beyond your subject of “Give Us a Worthless Leader” by expanding it a little bit to: “Give Us an Unauthorized [Worthless] Worship Leader.” There’s scriptural proof for this in that what God has prescribed for us is sufficient “FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST.” Here is the passage in its entirety:
“[3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [ [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.” (KJV: Ephesians 4)
We will leave it to God and the scriptures to judge what worship leaders have accomplished for themselves and how they have burdened and hindered today’s churches, which are experiencing unnecessary conflicts and divisions because of their “ministry efforts.” The information below, gleaned from original sources, should honestly speak of THE WORSHIP LEADER of the Madison Church of Christ. Whether or not this information will trigger arguments for or against this critical issue, let the story begin:
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SOURCE: http://www.acappella.org/main.htm
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[[[“““WELCOME to the online home of Acappella Ministries...
It's our pleasure to have you join us for a while. Acappella Ministries began in the early 1980's as a dream of a young Keith Lancaster. He knew that God had blessed him with a dream to spread the Gospel to the world through unique, a cappella music. He had the music and the Gospel. The hard part was taking it to the world. All he had was a family, a station wagon, some singers, and a lot of prayers. God blessed his vision and efforts.
20 years later, the dream continues, and the world has gotten a lot smaller. Acappella has covered most of it. The Vocal Union is doing their part. When you add in The Firemen, X-Changed, and our new Hispanic group, Voces, the world looks more like a neighborhood. We're doing our best to knock on every door. Let us share with you our vision. Join us as we strive to reach the world for Jesus Christ through the medium of unique a cappella Christian music.
Feel free to browse around through our site. Every aspect of our ministry is addressed within this web site, and many of them will have links to their own homepage, such as Acappella and others. Rather than including a search function, we have included a site map available at the top of every page. Enjoy...”””]]]
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SOURCE: http://www.acappella.org/lancaster.htm
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[[[“““While still heavily involved with leadership in The Acappella Company, Keith also works as a Worship Minister in the Nashville area. You can find him every weekend before more than 3000 people at the Madison Church Of Christ. He is also director of a small singing group at David Lipscomb University."""]]]
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SOURCE: http://www.madisoncofc.org/Ministry%20Team/Worship%20Minister.htm
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[[[“““WORSHIP MINISTER
Keith began his ministry with Madison on November 22, 1998. He claims Paris, TN, as his home town. Keith has a degree in ministry and has been involved in music ministry for the past 23 years. He is the founder and chairman of Acappella Ministries and producer of the singing group ACAPPELLA. While he continues to manage and produce this male quartet, he has been conducting worship seminars for churches around the world. Keith is a song writer as well."""]]]
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I’ve known you at a distance for about 18 months. I’ve spoken with you face to face on a few occasions. I’ve always been cordial and polite to you. I’ve offered to study with you to find the truth in God’s Word, but you have chosen not to do that. Your anger with Keith Lancaster and his role at Madison seems to have consumed you. This last post is evidence of how the devil has distorted your mind and heart. You have chosen the scripture. Now let it speak to your heart. Here it is in its entirety in a basic English translation. Feel free to use any translation including the original Greek if you choose. The message is the same. The words in “UPPERCASE ARE FOR EMPHASIS.”
Eph 4:1 I, a prisoner in the Lord, encourage you to live the kind of life which proves that God has called you.
EPH 4:2 BE HUMBLE AND GENTLE IN EVERY WAY. BE PATIENT WITH EACH OTHER AND LOVINGLY ACCEPT EACH OTHER.
EPH 4:3 THROUGH THE PEACE THAT TIES YOU TOGETHER, DO YOUR BEST TO MAINTAIN THE UNITY THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES.
Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit. In the same way you were called to share one hope.
Eph 4:5 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, who is over everything, through everything, and in everything.
Eph 4:7 God's favor has been given to each of us. It was measured out to us by Christ who gave it.
Eph 4:8 That's why the Scriptures say: "When he went to the highest place, he took captive those who had captured us and gave gifts to people."
Eph 4:9 Now what does it mean that he went up except that he also had gone down to the lowest parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 The one who had gone down also went up above all the heavens so that he fills everything.
Eph 4:11 He also gave apostles, prophets, missionaries, as well as pastors and teachers as gifts to his church.
EPH 4:12 THEIR PURPOSE IS TO PREPARE GOD'S PEOPLE, TO SERVE, AND TO BUILD UP THE BODY OF CHRIST.
EPH 4:13 THIS IS TO CONTINUE UNTIL ALL OF US ARE UNITED IN OUR FAITH AND IN OUR KNOWLEDGE ABOUT GOD'S SON, UNTIL WE BECOME MATURE, UNTIL WE MEASURE UP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE STANDARD.
EPH 4:14 THEN WE WILL NO LONGER BE LITTLE CHILDREN, TOSSED AND CARRIED ABOUT BY ALL KINDS OF TEACHINGS THAT CHANGE LIKE THE WIND. WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFLUENCED BY PEOPLE WHO USE CUNNING AND CLEVER STRATEGIES TO LEAD US ASTRAY.
EPH 4:15 INSTEAD, AS WE LOVINGLY SPEAK THE TRUTH, WE WILL GROW UP COMPLETELY IN OUR RELATIONSHIP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE HEAD.
EPH 4:16 HE MAKES THE WHOLE BODY FIT TOGETHER AND UNITES IT THROUGH THE SUPPORT OF EVERY JOINT. AS EACH AND EVERY PART DOES ITS JOB, HE MAKES THE BODY GROW SO THAT IT BUILDS ITSELF UP IN LOVE.
EPH 4:17 SO I TELL YOU AND ENCOURAGE YOU IN THE LORD'S NAME NOT TO LIVE ANY LONGER LIKE OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. THEIR MINDS ARE SET ON WORTHLESS THINGS.
EPH 4:18 THEY CAN'T UNDERSTAND BECAUSE THEY ARE IN THE DARK. THEY ARE EXCLUDED FROM THE LIFE THAT GOD APPROVES OF BECAUSE OF THEIR IGNORANCE AND STUBBORNNESS.
Eph 4:19 Since they no longer have any sense of shame, they have become promiscuous. They practice every kind of sexual perversion with a constant desire for more.
Eph 4:20 But that is not what you learned from Christ's teachings.
Eph 4:21 You have certainly heard his message and have been taught his ways. The truth is in Jesus.
Eph 4:22 You were taught to change the way you were living. The person you used to be will ruin you through desires that deceive you.
EPH 4:23 HOWEVER, YOU WERE TAUGHT TO HAVE A NEW ATTITUDE.
RIGHTEOUS AND HOLY. EPH 4:24 YOU WERE ALSO TAUGHT TO BECOME A NEW PERSON CREATED TO BE LIKE GOD, TRULY
EPH 4:25 SO THEN, GET RID OF LIES. SPEAK THE TRUTH TO EACH OTHER, BECAUSE WE ARE ALL MEMBERS OF THE SAME BODY.
EPH 4:26 BE ANGRY WITHOUT SINNING. DON'T GO TO BED ANGRY.
EPH 4:27 DON'T GIVE THE DEVIL ANY OPPORTUNITY TO WORK.
Eph 4:28 Thieves must quit stealing and, instead, they must work hard. They should do something good with their hands so that they'll have something to share with those in need.
EPH 4:29 DON'T SAY ANYTHING THAT WOULD HURT ANOTHER PERSON. INSTEAD, SPEAK ONLY WHAT IS GOOD SO THAT YOU CAN GIVE HELP WHEREVER IT IS NEEDED. THAT WAY, WHAT YOU SAY WILL HELP THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.
EPH 4:30 DON'T GIVE GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT ANY REASON TO BE UPSET WITH YOU. HE HAS PUT HIS SEAL ON YOU FOR THE DAY YOU WILL BE SET FREE FROM THE WORLD OF SIN.
EPH 4:31 GET RID OF YOUR BITTERNESS, HOT TEMPERS, ANGER, LOUD QUARRELING, CURSING, AND HATRED.
EPH 4:32 BE KIND TO EACH OTHER, SYMPATHETIC, FORGIVING EACH OTHER AS GOD HAS FORGIVEN YOU THROUGH CHRIST.
Donnie, I pray that God will deliver you from your torment. I pray that He will open your eyes and reveal to you how you can serve Him and Him only. I pray that He will bless you richly with opportunities to serve Him and wisdom to discern what opportunity truly looks like. I pray that you will come to Him daily as an empty vessel for His use. I pray that you will come with no preconceived ideas of what God wants from you today. Just be available to serve Him with every fiber of your being.
Re: His Word will set you free (Chuck Sonn) April 10 2003, 10:57 AM
April 10 2003, 12:58 PM
Chuck,
With little amount of time that I have, let me respond to your defense of this contemporary CONCEPT of “WORSHIP LEADER,” which in itself is a usurpation of the authority of Christ. Hopefully, I will have more time to continue this discourse soon. Above all, let me assure you that I have the full confidence in what the Holy Scripture teaches, and, yes, as a soldier of Christ, I detest it when known and prominent teachers and leaders compromise and twist the truth to further their agenda and popularity and pride and business endeavors. I have nothing against Keith Lancaster as a human being. In fact, I “voted” for him a million times when a “song leader” was about to be selected at the time. There was not the slightest hint then as to which direction he was taking the Madison body. Just to make the story short, you know what have been the developments in recent months.
You, Chuck, and others are in this dream world and convinced that the eventual upheaval at Madison did not occur as a result of the gradual and subtle culture-driven church growth scheme endorsed and implemented by the church’s leadership. You need to stop denying the FACT that 90% of church conflicts evolves and is due to worship issues. And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts.
To start with, let me just state these few statements as they relate to the entire fourth chapter of Ephesians, which I strongly believe in, but which Keith Lancaster needs to look at more deeply:
--- HUMILITY and LOVINGLY ACCEPTING EACH OTHER. As much as your WORSHIP LEADER is “sincerely” stating, “give all the praise to God and not to me,” he continues to be full of pride and ego as a masterful musician of musicians. It’s time he accepts and admits the fact that the introduction of this “contemporary worship format” as an alternative has driven away many of his brethren in Christ. Does he really believe this “lovingly accepting each other” bit, or is he more concerned about continuing to advertise his musical talent?
--- MAINTAINING THE UNITY THAT THE SPIRIT GIVES. There may be UNION in having separate and different worship formats –- “TRADITIONAL” and “CONTEMPORARY” … but there is definitely not “UNITY OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BOND OF PEACE.” There is no UNITY in DIVERSITY!!!
--- GAVE US “WORSHIP LEADERS.” Nowhere to be found! “And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors [elders] and teachers. (Ephesians 4:11, KJV) Jesus, the mediator and High Priest, is the ONLY worship leader and the only one to “CALL us to worship.” Jesus said so, in our worship of the Father in heaven, in John 4:21, 23-24: “Jesus saith … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
--- MEASURE UP TO CHRIST, WHO IS THE STANDARD. Indeed! Indeed! Keith’s and the PRAISE TEAM’s performances are NOT THE STANDARD.
--- “TOSSED AND CARRIED ABOUT BY ALL KINDS OF TEACHINGS THAT CHANGE LIKE THE WIND [definitely like 'navigating the winds of CHANGE']. WE WILL NO LONGER BE INFLUENCED BY PEOPLE [church leaders who have succumbed] WHO USE CUNNING AND CLEVER STRATEGIES TO LEAD US ASTRAY." Self-explanatory, isn’t it?
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TO BE CONTINUED …
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Donnie,
You wrote:
"And you and Keith Lancaster and the WORSHIP committee of Keith and [ONLY ONE OF several elders] Buck Dozier … are not willing to give it a try resorting to the WORKABLE worship format of the past -– NO WORSHIP LEADER, NO MUSICIANS (KEITH’S PRAISE TEAM OR CHOIR) -– just plain congregational singing at its best efforts."
It is my opinion, if you will attend and report on the 8am service, you will have to retract this statement.
It is also my belief, you have NEVER discussed these issues with Buck or Keith.
RO 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
RO 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
RO 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.
1CO 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother goes to law against another--and this in front of unbelievers!
COL 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
JAS 4:11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you--who are you to judge your neighbor?
9 Don't grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!
15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
Donnie, is there any slight possibility that any of this applies to you?
Re: What about the early service? (Eddie) April 10 2003, 2:09 PM
April 10 2003, 3:38 PM
Eddie:
So, what about the early service? The last time I attended the 8 a.m. service, your WORSHIP LEADER was there, just as busy displaying MUSICAL WORSHIP talent to perfection. While his musicians weren’t sitting in front, they were interspersed in the crowd to give the appearance of LESS performance. (By the way, the attendance on March 30th was 520. This past Sunday, April 6th, the attendance was 467. Let’s just say that it was because of the time change -- some of the senior saints at the early assembly perhaps had a memory lapse or couldn’t “get up” early. In reality, it looks like some members are still being driven away.)
I’m sorry to disappoint you, Eddie, that regardless of circumstances, the truth still rises to the top. I doubt seriously that I need to retract my statement. Truths are not retractable. The verses you quoted should be familiar to and practiced by all Christians, including elders and even non-ordained, unauthorized “WORSHIP LEADERS.” In regard to discussing the issues on worship, the proper thing to do is for ALL ELDERS (NOT JUST ONE BUCK) to be involved in this CORE program. Then, the outcome or process is then implemented.
You certainly can help with this matter: why don’t you make a special effort to bring up all the verses that you just quoted to the entire leadership? It badly needs all these admonitions before some more members decide to leave the fellowship!
Re: Re: What about the early service? (Donnie) April 11, 2003
April 11 2003, 10:46 AM
Donnie,
Why don't you tell all of us when you last attended early service? My sources say you NEVER have. You are doing better about being on time for the late service.
Be glad to meet you at the church house this Sunday at 7:30 am. What say you?
I was just being courteous in letting you finish. I didn't want to respond until you had your chance to complete your thoughts.
There is no room for personal attacks in the body of Christ...for any reason.
The message af salvation is timeless. The methods of delivery will change to reach the masses as necessary. They have continued to change for millenia. The elders have made their decision and will live by it as they feel best serves our community and members. Any that don't agree can leave. As you have mentioned repeatedly, many have. Allow me to ask you one question which should provide all the answers that I need.
If the purpose of our assembly on the first day of the week is to worship our Creator and Savior in spirit and in truth, can you honestly say that your only focus is to truly worship Him that way? I can't comprehend one that has as much ill feeling toward people and practice being able to set that aside especially since those people and practices are part of what you consider worship.
Chucky, Donnie just told you that SOMEONE at A CAPPELLA is apparently LYING about the membership to BOOTSTRAP his own "ministry" to teach others how to destroy a church. Why not address A Cappella (the Pope's boys) and ask them to cease and desist. They PROSPER only when they can deny their GROWTH RATE.
If some elder person tells the paper that you have a membership of 5,000 and lost only 50 why does that make Donnie "BESIDE HIMSELF?"
If the TEAM began in 1998 with 3000 and others count about half that many then is THAT speaking the truth in love?
You quote all of those passages which SHOULD be quoted to YOU GUYS who VIOLATED EVERY ONE OF THEM. Your songs STILL don't "speak the truth" in any sense.
God ordained LEADERS--not to sing and clap and make love to God--to prepare people for MINISTRY.
UNDER LYNN ANDERSON AND SHELLY YOU LEARN HOW TO "BLOW THE WINDS OF CHANGE" TO CONVERT THE CHURCH INTO A THEATER FOR UNHOLY ENTERTAINMENT. HOWEVER, IN CONTEXT,PAUL SAID:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the SLIGHT of men, and CUNNING CRAFTINESS whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Don't tell the world that they have to preach in love to those who LIE IN WAIT TO DECEIVE. Jesus gave us permission to RESIST thieves.
JESUS CALLED THEM THE SEED OF VIPERS, CHILDRIN OF THEIR FATHER THE DEVIL. Chucky says "Don't rock da boat." Now, while you FIGHT OFF the cunning craftsmen with one hand DON'T FORGET to:
Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the HEAD, even Christ:
Paul is NOT speaking to those CUNNING serpent people but to the ASSEMBLY. He says here exactly what he will say in the NEXT chapter. Paul said that BEFORE they were INVOLVED IN what DONNIE is defining:
4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful LUSTS;
4:23 And be RENEWED in the SPIRIT of your MIND;
WHY? Why that is the Most Holy Place where we meet God ONE AT A TIME. You cannot do that by RENEWING your CLAQUE TEAM about when and how to BODY DRUM. You learn that from VOODOO.
4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true HOLINESS.
JESUS SAID THAT THE CLERGY WERE LIARS AND SONS OF THE DEVIL. WHY? WHY BECAUSE "They Speak ON THEIR OWN." That is, they just MAKE UP songs and sermons. But, Paul said:
4:25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak EVERY man TRUTH with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
THAT ELEMINATES SELF-SPEAK as LYING AND IT MAKES impossible upbuilding. EDIFICATION DEPEND ON "EVERY MAN WITH HIS NEIGHBORS." OTHERWISE YOU HAVE "RESPECT OF PERSONS" AND WORSHIP "TALENT."
WHY IS DRUNK ON IGNORANCE BETTER THAN DRUNK ON WINE?
5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
It is SPIRIT speaking ONLY if it is the WORDS OF CHRIST which are "spirit and life." You guys are SPEAKING the spirit of the PERFORMING ARTS and not of Christ.
5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
IF YOU CAN READ THEN "MAKING MELODY IN THE HEART" cannot mean MAKE HARMONY IN YOUR NERVE ENDINGS.
Jesus said that worship is COUNTED only if it is IN SPIRIT. This is THE PLACE of the human mind and NO SINGER OF LOVE SONGS CAN GO THERE.
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 2 Cor 3:17
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. 2 Co.3:18
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;
----but, by manifestation of the TRUTH, commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2
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And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17
Praying ALWAYS with all prayer and supplication IN the SPIRIT, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; Eph 6:18
For we are the circumcision, which
---worship God IN the SPIRIT
---and rejoice in Christ Jesus,
-----and have no confidence IN the FLESH. Philippians 3:3
SPIRIT IS CONTRASTED WITH FLESH. "Holy rolling" is NOT contrasted with the FLESH.
Judaism (musical sacrificers), Tithing etc. is trying to worship IN THE FLESH.
God ONLY ACCEPTS worship IN THE HUMAN SPIRIT but your TEAMSTERS are trying to CUNNINGLY STIR UP THE FLESH.
You CANNOT worship in THE SPIRIT by stroking your body.
DONNIE is speaking the truth in LOVE. Why else would he fool with a totally PERVERTED system of false worship?
You guys HAVE TO HATE the widows to run them off and steal their church houses. You HAVE to hate people to make worship into a MASSAGE PARLOR used to FIRE UP the lust of the flesh ABSOLUTELY PROVEN by the singy clapping and the ABSOLUTE inability to see who DELIBERATELY SOWED DISCORD. Doubt that? Don't. The Andersonian or Hegeling Dialectic CONFESSES to pushing the church to the BRINK in order to make it change.
And what is the PRODUCT of this NEOISM: Why, little children and women RULE OVER YOU and make you sing and clap.
Don't bite, Donnie, you are doing just what JESUS did and they LOVED Him to Death. And you are doing just what Paul did and they CALLED HIM MAD.
Ken why don't you just give it another try on the hamster wheel as you keep spinning and turning in all sorts of directions? FYI Ken and the rest of you who view this site. In reference to the acappella website the information regarding the Madison Church of Christ and its membership hasn't been updated in years. If you are so concerned or that technical about numbers call the church office and find out for yourself.
Re: The Hamster Wheel (John Paul George Jr) April 10 2003, 1:31 PM
April 10 2003, 4:13 PM
John Paul:
Well, two things: (1) We’re just curious about how many more senior saints are being driven away from the fellowship; (2) We’re just curious as to the effectiveness of the Community Church crusade in bringing precious souls to Christ from outside the “church” box, using its culture-driven for church growth scheme.
I have told you over and over and you haven't refuted it that:
Music in a "worship" sense had two Biblical purposes (don't tell me about David strumming to his sheep):
First: The MUSICAL WARRIOR LEVITES were under the King and Commanders of the army and NEVER under the priests were OUTSIDE the Holy Place as a type of the church.
Their SERVICE was "hard bondage" from a word with the same meaning as Abaddon or Apollyon. Because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST as a result of the PERVERTED musicl idolatry at Mount Sinai and later demanding a human king so that they could worship like the nations, their service was quite identical to that of Canaan or Babylon.
That MUSICAL NOISE was exorcism of the bad demons and trying to call the GOOD GODS to the feast. Catholics therefore organized with both Precentors and EXORCISTS.
They were paying for their own sins and MOCKING prophetically Lord Jesus Christ. The Musical Levites again were prophesied to MOCK Jesus. They PIPED trying to get Him into the homosexual Dionysus song and dance.
The only MUSICIANS who entered into the Holy Places even in the vilest paganism was in Jerusalem where Zeus and Dionysus were "worshiped" in the Gymnasiums where they had to SET GUARDS to stiffle the homosexuality. They actually performed sexuality and homosexuality in temples dedicated to Zeus or Dionysus. That PLAGUE made Jerusalem so vile that Jesus spoke in parables to HIDE the gospel from them.
During many periods the Jews tolerated SINGERS which name roots to prostitutes and instrumentalists (normally a female domain) which roots to SODOMITES around the Temple.
SECOND: I told you that in pagan religions THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITON but that singers and musicians were of the LOWER CLASSES who could be abused as the final ACT OF WORSHIP (Re Wimber, Vineyard) just before paying your bill (something like tithing.)
MODERN SCHOLARS still agree with the documents of the Ancient Near East, the Biblical examples of "music," the church Fathers: THERE IS NO OTHER TRADITION which does not give credit to SATAN (Lucifer) for choirs and instrumentalists which ALWAYS included the qedeshot or "holy prostitutes."
Nimrod in Babylon, contemporary musicians, scientists and musicologists RECOGNIZE that "music" produces the impulses of FIGHT, FLIGHT OR SEXUALITY. Music injects endorphins or natural morphine. Once you are addicted, the HIGH which seems natural to you seems UNNATURAL to Donnie and the chased-away half of your crowd.
I watched a Mormon girl who had never tasted Caffein just about go into insanity when someone gave her just one APC.
THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE WHICH YOU CAN USE TO DEFEND BRINGING PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS AND ACTORS TO "STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE" PRETENDING TO BE MEDIATORS OR IN RUBEL SHELLY'S BORROWED WORDS: "BRING YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD."
I HEAR THE CLAPPY SONGS AS EXPLICITELY SEXUAL IN CONTENT.
THE CLAPPING AND BODY WORSHIP MAKES THE DIAGNOSIS CERTAIN TO ME, TO DONNIE AND I SUSPECT ABOUT HALF OF YOUR CONGREGATION YOU HAVE DISCORDED AND SCATTERED.
History knows it in pagan religions as SEXPERIENCE and not worship which happens ONLY in your HUMAN SPIRIT as the ONLY place God meets you. Leviticla musicians who attempted to go with the priests into the Holy Place as type of the church of Christ, or into the Most Holy Place a the PLACE where God meets a priest ONE AT A TIME would have been executed.
The MOTHER, Carol Wimber as the mother of the NEW STYLE HYMNALS insists that the next to last ACT OF WORSHIP is a music-induced CLIMACTIC expreience with God. The last ACT is giving of substance-tithing.
Now, if you cannot find any Biblically or historical evidence to refute 100% of the evidence, I claim that you have USED the PERSONA of Musical Performers and that PERSONA is universally that of sexuality.
Ken,
Apparently you did not understand the question. You ramble on about things that simply don't apply. We don't have kings. We are not in hard bondage. We are not at Mt. Sinai. We ain't called the exorcist. We don't mock or pipe. There are no guards or plagues. No sodomites, no lower classes. We ain't in Babylon with Nimrod. We did not run anyone off, they left of their own will. I haven't seen an APC in 30 years, and not any here. AND, who in the world is Carol Wimber?
So, I fail to see where you are going with this madness.
I fail to understand why I even bother to answer you.
This conversation is over, unless you wish to meet with Donnie and I Sunday, at the church house, 7:30 am.
I bet I'm the only one that shows up.
THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE WHICH YOU CAN USE TO DEFEND BRINGING PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS AND ACTORS TO "STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE" PRETENDING TO BE MEDIATORS OR IN RUBEL SHELLY'S BORROWED WORDS: "TO BRING YOU INTO THE PRESENCE OF GOD."
All of the ANTI-ISM such as Grace Centered and all of your THOUGHT LEADERS cannot see any condemnation of music in the Bible. The fact is THEY CANNOT SEE.
100% of the historical and Biblical evidence associates "religious" PRAISE SINGING and "music" to Satan, animal sacrifice EXORCISM, sexuality and perverted sexuality.
Jesus threw out, more or less violently like DUNG, the musical team and repudiated all of the Jewish additions of pagan music [I know that you haven't read that]. Therefore JESUS CHRIST is NOT your PATTERN.
The New Testament church is not your pattern.
The church historical theologians and historians are not your pattern.
The view of denominational founders is not your pattern.
Your thought leaders just lie about it!
WHAT IS YOUR PATTERN? The only "Lord" you imitate is the UNIVERSALLY polluted view of music in all paganism.
Therefore, what you are AFFLICTING the spiritual minds with is NOT REMOTELY CONNECTED TO CHRISTIANITY. In fact MELODY or PSALLO means to "grind the enemy into a fine powder."
The host of American religion PATTERNED after Hollywood, Dollywood and TBN is virtually going insane remodelling and BUYING the old Greek theater "mechanae" to WOW the crowd. Since the CALLED OUT ASSEMBLY is a tiny minority DON'T let popularity and even possible "growth"be the OBJECT of your faith. It is called a SCAM.
I guess most of you have figured out Ken and Donnie DID NOT show up this morning. You notice in the post below, Ken evades the invitation with more of his raves and rants about nothing. Donnie simply did not answer. In my mind this shows them for what they are. They will not face anyone. They only want to hide behind their keyboard and stir up as much trouble as they can. I hope I'm writing this for their eyes only, as it is my belief there are not many people that visit here for serious study. On this note, I should listen to my own advice, and stop trying to change their minds. It ain't going to happen. Ken is a lost cause. I have had hope for Donnie in the past.
Chuck, Evan, Dal, John, Mr. B, Roger, We have better things to do!
Watching the male warriors of our nation in action I cannot express to you the pride I feel. Why did they do it? I believe that there is a God- Given impulse which makes people 'plagued' with righteousness and social justice willing to give up their lives to keep the 150 pound bully from punching a little girl or an old woman in the nose and snatch their purse.
I think God that He gave me that "Y" to take in my life in Korea. So, I have felt that primal instinct which Christ did not remove. Furthermore, He gave true believer's the instinct of the Spiritual Warrior with both offensive and defensive weapons.
In my 72 plus years I have felt all of the human feelings known to mankind--except one. I was born in a sharecroppers cabin on my Grandfather's farm and then lived in two slave cabins. My mom knew very well how to turn feed bags into most clothing. In her later years they had a fair house to live in and all of their need met.
Then, I think about a small band of vandals stealing in and eating all of her food and turning her out of her house at aged 95. Oh, they tried: they INFILTRATED her house and DIVERTED her mind but I got there before they could "buy" her furniture from several generations past. My Jesus didn't impulse me to turn my mother's other cheek any more than He did when He was smacked.
That final emotion of UTTER SHAME was saved by God to let me see spewing from people who wear the name of CHRIST to know why He is "calling" out a body of people which YOU guys cannot call with carnal strokings.
The only thing which has made me feel SHAME to the point of TEARS has been the lying about the Bible, about Christ, about the church and the horrific oppression heaped on the heads of old people including widows being chased out of their church by a band of religionists who HAVE no shame--for now.
I listen to this fairly often to TEST my devotion to anything other than the next DRUG HIGH from the spiritual "crack" dealers.
Re: To All Readers (Eddie Williams) April 13 2003, 3:51 PM
April 14 2003, 5:13 PM
Eddie:
I realize you were extremely disappointed that nobody came to your self-appointed invitation. You should have already learned your lesson by then that extending an invitation like that would be futile. It’s unfortunate that a more effective way for some really SERIOUS study, covering more ground and more people and making use of time efficiently –- such as serious study on this site -- has never been your consideration. Meanwhile, as I have told John Paul George, I find that hiding behind my PC works for me. Regardless of how I hide, I can’t hide the truth. Somehow, the truth surfaces and I realize that the truth irritates and frustrates you to no end. And the truth is that I am not stirring trouble. I am simply exposing all the troubles stirred by your own friends and proponents of the Movements you’ve been participating in. Sorry!
Hey eddie
what about our meeting. a year ago you said you could get a meeting with the elders at MAD MADISON, but I guess it is business as usually: Say one thing and mean another. Smoke screen, duck and run. Pick on the weak and beat the sheep. Money talks and everythings else walks. I have given up on the occult at MAD MADISON, it is up to God now.
Eph 5:6
Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Simple! It’s the same way you would define “massage parlor.” Simply that! As to what Ken has NOT SEEN, that’s really not the issue. It’s all a matter of faith. “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of THINGS NOT SEEN. By faith Noah, being warned of God of THINGS NOT SEEN as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.” (Hebrews 11:1,7)
Sorry, Eddie. Ken walks by faith, and not by sight. “For we walk by faith, not by sight.” (II Corinthians 5:7)
is a song which has become the MANTRA of those trying to SHINE THEIR OWN LIGHT as the "idolatry of talent."
For instance, the COMMERCIAL "PRAYER, CARE, SHARE INSTRUCTION WITH MARY MARR" notes that: "LIGHTHOUSES IN HARMONY facilitates current and potential Lighthouse ARTISTS, musicians and WORSHIP LEADERS to shine the Light of Jesus Christ through CONCERTS, church services and CITYWIDE gatherings. [P.S. and book shows and sell CDs.]
THE TRUTH PART IS THAT MUSIC FACILITATES THE MUSICIANS AND NOT CHRIST. There is no better REALITY CHECK than the Lucifer character who began BLEEDING OFF worship from God even in Heaven rising again in his AGENTS like Judas whose JUDAS BAG carried mouthpieces of WIND INSTRUMENTS.
The Catholic Campus Ministry uses this SHINING theme and their Logo is a RISING SUN. Remember our notes from Shelly about BAPTIZING SANTA and Lucado's COSMIC CHRISTMAS looking like SUN WORSHIP and Shelly's thinking of the S.O.N. God as the S.U.N. god? Well, under various slick titles his number is 666. And remember CHRIST-MASS and ISHTAR SERVICES?
Even in heaven there were TWO sources of light. God IS LIGHT but Lucifer (Latin) tried to be a LIGHT "BULB" to steal the worship from God. He was cast out and showed up in the garden of Eden as a Musical Enchanter replacing the LIGHT of God's presence. He embodied percussion, wind and string instruments.
The superiority of the Jews was in their mind and not in God's. Paul wrote about those who thought they could GO LIGHT THE WORLD. Instead they made CONVERTS worse than themselves.
--"And art confident that thou THYSELF art a guide of the blind, a LIGHT of them which are in DARKNESS, Rom 2: 19
----"An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the FORM of knowledge and of the truth in the law. Rom 2: 20
Paul told them in 2 Cor. 3 that they were BLIND AND DEAF because they had not recognized that Spirit of Christ was the Spirit of their dispensation. Paul warned those who would GO LIGHT THE WORLD with their own COMMERCIAL MUSICAL TALENT:
--"THEREFORE, seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; 2 Cor 4:1
----"But have renounced the hidden things of DISHONESTY, not walking in CRAFTINESS, nor handling the word of God DECEITFULLY; but, by manifestation of the TRUTH, commending ourselves to every mans conscience in the sight of God. 2 Cor 4:2
When Jesus comes the BABYLON PROSTITUTE will repeat the FALL of Lucifer as the king of Tyre and of Babylon: the harp- playing prostitutes:
----"Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and MUSICIANS, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no CRAFTSMAN, of whatsoever CRAFT... AND NOT EVEN THE LIGHT OF A CANDLE
--"But if our gospel be HID, it is hid to them that are LOST: 2 Cor 4:3
----"In whom the god of this world hath BLINDED the minds of them which believe not, lest the LIGHT of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should SHINE unto them. 2 Cor 4:4
----"For we preach NOT OURSELVES, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your SERVANTS for Jesus sake. 2 Cor 4:5
----"For God, who commanded the LIGHT to shine out of darkness, hath SHINED in our HEARTS, to give the LIGHT of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6
----"But we have this treasure in EARTHEN vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 2 Cor 4:7
Ostrakinos is earthern-ware and indeed we have PROOF of the Word of God because men wrote on fragments of clay jars and hid documents in clay jars TO BE PRESERVED.
The false LIGHTHOUSE IS LUCIFER who is always in opposition to the WORD of God:
---Heylel ( h1966) hay-lale'; from 1984 (in the sense of BRIGHTNESS); the morning-star: - lucifer.
---Halal (h1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); TO SHINE shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish .. shine. PRAISE.
The LIGHT that we have UNIVERSALLY associates MUSIC with Satan and his disciples who say: "We will not listen to the Word of God."
MUSIC is the defacto PROOF that people are telling Jesus that "we WILL NOT GO and teach your Word as it has been taught." By claiming to preach CHRIST through their truly childish "praise songs" they are FULFILLING end- time prophecy where COMMERCIAL SUCCESS TOTALLY CORRUPTS.
Contra Shelly, Peter and the other Apostles SAW the light of the transfiguration of Jesus Christ. They were not preaching CUNNINNGLY DEVISED FABLES (songs) but saw the LIGHT shine out from Jesus into their literal eyes.
---2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure WORD of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye TAKE HEAD (a worship word), as unto a LIGHT that shineth in a dark place, until the DAY DAWN, and the DAY STAR arise in your hearts:
---2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
PRIVATE INTERPRETATION means FURTHER EXPOUNDING. Those who BRAG about LIGHTING THE WORLD with their own FALSE "FURTHER EXPOUNDING in song" violate this law and GIVE ABSOLUTE PROOF inherent in all of the MUSICAL passages which shouts to the world: WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE WORD OF GOD.
The ONLY LIGHT OTHER THAN the Light Jesus shined forth as Full Deity and inspired in His Holy word is the musicians HALAL LIGHT. That translates to the fact that HEYLEL or LUCIFER is just making a fool out of them. No doubt, the COURT JESTERS will be at the WORKSHOP OF EVIL. And we told you that when God POURS OUT HIS WRATH he sends strong deluders as BUFFOONS.
GIVE US A NEW AND IMPROVED “ORG” CHART THAT INCLUDES WORSHIP LEADERS & MUSICIANS
April 18 2003, 4:09 PM
Ephesians 4 summarizes the church’s organization and emphasizes unity. The writer states: “[1] I therefore … beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called … [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] … and gave gifts unto men. [11] And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS; and some, PASTORS [ELDERS or BISHOPS or SHEPHERDS] and TEACHERS; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God … [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ …”
The offices of ELDERS and DEACONS are specified in several passages: elders ordained in every church (Acts 14:23; 16:17; Acts 15), with listed qualifications in I Timothy 3 and Titus 1. The ministry of EVANGELISTS is exemplified by Philip (Acts 21:8) or Timothy and Mark (2 Tim. 4:5,11) and of TEACHERS in Hebrews 5:12.
Lord Jesus Christ, our ONLY mediator:
(1) Teaches us in a model prayer to our Father in Matthew 6:9-13. “After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.” Amen.” Of course, we pray in Jesus’ name (Eph. 5:20; Col. 3:17). And even in Jesus’ name do we withdraw fellowship from a brother: “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.” (II Thess. 3:6)
(2) Instructs us in our worship of the Father: “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23,24)
The big question is: Should congregations of the church of Christ (Rom. 16:16), without God’s authority, have the liberty to include the following OFFICES or POSITIONS in the church’s ORG CHART:
--- WORSHIP LEADER or WORSHIP FACILITATOR
--- MUSICIANS (CHOIR, PRAISE TEAM, HANDCLAPPERS)
--- CHIEF ELDER
--- ASSISTANT CHIEF ELDER
--- SHEPHERDESSES
--- DEACONESSES
--- MODERN DAY APOSTLES (like Don Finto)
--- CHARISMATIC FAITH HEALERS
--- WOMEN MINISTERS (such as Paula, Petra, Johnna, Timothya, Marka)
--- POPES, CARDINALS AND ARCHBISHOPS for churches of Christ
--- Etc. (Feel free to add more to the list)
The Jews had a WORSHIP LEADER who frequently led them to the temple area and then down into TOPHETH. Named after the tophet or tamborine. It was once "the king's music grove" and it came to stand for hell itself where the king/queen of Babylon and his/her musicians and harps and other instruments went back into Sheol with him to burn and rot on a bed of maggots.
He was Molech or Chiun or Saturn the 666 character. You burned little babies at the end of the musical procession led by your musical worship leaders. You made lots of "music" so that the priest could not hear the baby screams as evil but get a REVELATION out of the CONSUMING FIRES. Satan just loves little babies. There is no better way to BURN the brain with new HARD WIRED connections which confuses the charismatic or sexual music-induced drug to Spiritual worship.
In Phoenix, Zoe (Lucifer the superior to little Jesus) and the MOTHER of little Jehovah, will bring down the CONSUMING FIRES. Of course, all fire worship is devil worship and God's FIRES are reserved for those who will not come before Him in REVERENCE AND FEAR. He will burn them up beginning-RIGHT NOW-by their OWN breath. You can go to Phoenix to learn how to be a MISLEADER for Satan.
----"Eze.28:18 Thou hast DEFILED thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy TRAFFICK; therefore will I bring forth a FIRE from the MIDST of THE, it shall DEVOUR THE, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
DEFILED means to bring music into the holy places: the word is translated as to PLAY THE FULTE, POLLUTE OR PROSTITUTE. It has the same root meaning of HALAL or praise singing which was "making self vile." The word translated LUCIFER is derived from the praise word of the lost souls. Lucifer came from walking among the burning stones. Hope you have tough feet.
I have done a rendering to and old woodblock to show you Zoe's MARK or LOGO of a consuming fire comming out of his belly (liberties taken) consuming the children of the MUSICAL PERFORMERS. I like it.
http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html
The applaud of the six-packers and unlawful, faithless preachermen is just God MOCKING you.
God to Phoenix to become a worship leader but bring along the marshmellows. The burning process has begun: that is the reason for the wails of lost souls like banshees reverberating through the halls of hell.
Zoe has the people restless in Phoenix because they know that the church will be discorded more and more. ZOE'S theme for their Look to the Hills (Where the mountain gods live) conference is:
--------A CONSUMING FIRE: AN EXPERIENCE IN WORSHIP--------
Lest you think this unusual look at this quote from another group trying to light your fires with body worship:
A Web Page "Spreading the fire" Fuel the Fire
----"The nature of a fire is to spread, but how can we expect the fire to grow and to CATCH ONTO others if ours is only a CANDLE-sized flame? The best way to witness to your friends is to show them by example. When Non-Christians see the INFERNO in our lives they will find it IRRESISTIBLE and will be drawn like moths."
INFERNO means "HELL or suggesting hell." The CONSUMERS WITH FIRE literally invite you to participate in HELL right now. But God always MARKS them with some sign so that those awake will not turn into toast.
HERE IS THE MARK. The cute Zoe in Phoenix invitation to a burning is quoted from Hebrews. Obviously God has MOCKED the whole group in that they DEFINE just whom will be CONSUMED by God's fire: those who do not approach God with REVERENCE AND HOLY FEAR. After all, there is a big gap between the God of the Universe and a lover. The "emerging church" revelations often make appeals to rituals muck like witchcraft. Music was always a favorite WEAPON to seduce you. The FAMILIAR SPIRIT of the witch of Endor was an empty wineskin as an echo chamber with much the meaning of the harp and Pauls "echoing bronze."
Paul, as usual, directs us back to an earlier CONSUMING fire and tells us why they turned into toast:
----"See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they ESCAPED NOT who REFUSED him that spake on earth, MUCH MORE shall not we escape, if we TURN AWAY from him that speaketh from heaven: Heb. 12:25
You know how the latter day apostles MOCK the idea of using Nadab and Abihu. Matthew Henry notes:
---"Him that spake on earth: MOSES, who spoke on the part of God to the Hebrews, every transgression of whose word received a just recompense of reward, none being permitted to escape punishment; consequently, if ye turn away from Christ, who speaks to you from heaven, you may expect a MUCH SORER PUNISHMENT, the offense against God being so much the MORE HEINOUS, as the privileges slighted are more important and glorious. Matthew Henry
Those who REFUSE Paul's use of Nadab and Abihu must KNOW that the candle has been lit and if they are good AGENTS they must ridicule anyone who would refer to God's types or PATTERNS. That includes the WHOLE BIBLE exept the core gospel of "seven facts about God." Who can be so gullible as to drink Jones Town Koolaid? You dear brother are just as vulnerable when you mock the Word of God or those who quote it.
ALL musical "teamsters" REFUSE AND TURN AWAY from Christ Who still speaks from heaven through His word. Furthermore, they deliberately try to keep others from hearing the WORDS or songs of Lord Jesus Christ Who is the Spirit of the Prophets. All "singing" which is not TEACHING is a SIN. How better than to SUBSTITUTE one's on silly but VEILING ditties? I don't accept that these people are SINCERE for one second.
THOSE WHO REFUSED MOSES FROM EARTH: "And there went out FIRE from the Lord, and DEVOURED them, and they died before the Lord. Lev 10:2
REFUSING CHRIST WHO HAS SPOKEN FROM HEAVEN and REFUSING to worship Him with fear and reverence will make you the MOTHS who "COME TO THE LIGHT" and get zapped. Why? How is treating a Holy God as someone to be entertained or seduced so much more WICKED and deserving a worse punishment than "strange fire?? They DELIBERATELY "block the gate" to those seeking the Kingdom of God within and the only thing worse than PHYSICAL BURNING is SPIRITUAL AND ETERNAL BURNING. That is what Paul said and that is why as good little AGENTS they need to tell you that the epistles are just garbage.
-------"For our God is a CONSUMING fire. Heb.12:29
REVERENCE is: Aidos (g127) ahee-doce'; perh. from 1 (as a neg. particle) and 1492 (through the idea of downcast eyes); bashfulness, i.e. (towards men), modesty or (towards God) awe: - reverence, shamefacedness.
When the feminine or effeminate swing and sway and clap and sing silly, erotic praise songs, they CANNOT be reverent and they MANUFACTURE irreverence. There is no such thing as reverent DRAMA or HAND CLAPPING or oohing and aahing. People want you to COME TO THE LIGHT to feed the beast. If they can ONCE make you connect spiritual worship to sexuality by musical stroking it is harder to kick than Crack.
GOODLY FEAR is: Eulabeia (g2124) yoo-lab'-i-ah; from 2126; prop. caution, i.e. (religiously) reverence (piety); by impl. dread (concr.): - fear (- ed).
Most "team worshipers" sing, clap, dance, use drama which have their origin in Lucifer or Sophia/ Zoe before he/she was CAST OUT of heaven along with his "worshipers." There can be no Godly fear and God is MOCKING them with blindness to MARK and lead out others who are blind.
True "worship" is like a "dog licking his master's feet" because a human approaching God in the Most Holy Place comes boldly but not with DELIBERATE IRREVERANCE.
You can pay up to $86.00 dollars for "all the bells and whistles'by the time you get to Phoenix plus transportation, housing, food and etc. Do you know why they try so urgently to spend the LORD'S MONEY defeating the LORD'S WORD?
You can learn about "praise", creative programming, technology, a new agape which probably you cannot DO in church on the Lord's day (Sabbath is Saturn is 666). visual arts, worship experience, worship ministry, media, audio, technology, blended worship.
Wittingly or half-wittingly they are inviting you to be trained in exactly those SKILLS which Paul said got Nadab and Abihum consumed and will get YOU consumed. God WILL NOT be mocked and your soul will also burn in the INVITED TO Inferno.
-------
Of Lucifer who is Zoe or Sophi-Zoe, Origen translated it:
"I gave thee for a SHOW and a MOCKERY on account of the multitude of thy sins, and of thine iniquities:
-----"because of thy trade (musical trade and CDs) thou hast polluted (play the flute, pollute, prostitute) thy holy places. And I shall bring forth fire from the MIDST of thee, and it shall devour thee, and I shall give thee for ashes and cinders on the earth in the sight of all who see thee: and all who know thee among the nations shall mourn over thee. Thou hast been made destruction, and thou shalt exist no longer for ever." (Ezek. 28:)
IT IS A FACT: GOD USES THEIR OWN BREATH TO CONSUME THEIR SPIRITS.
The Babylon Harlot has her worship ministers: the SINGING musicians are muses (locusts). As Lucifer was cast out of heaven for TRAFFICKING, the end time harlot is a blend of false religion, musicians to fool the fools and commerce. She is cunning because she disguises her weapons of wind, string and percussion instruments in the bodies of an organic musical instrument.
http://www.piney.com/Zoe-Look-To-The-Hills.html
Added pictures of FIRE worship where music meant CONSUMING YOUR CHILDREN in CANAAN LAND.
Worship leaders in the Bible? What about the term "music minister" as we call a man at our church? I don't know if that term makes it more palatable for those of you who seem to hate us who believe in using instruments... All I know is that here's one example of those who were responsible for the instrumental music in God's temple:
1 Chronicles 9:33
"Those who were musicians, heads of Levite families, stayed in the rooms of the temple and were exempt from other duties because they were responsible for the work day and night."
Those who were musicians... they were gifted in music, and were responsible their work as such... would God not want those who were gifted as such to be responsible for working in it day and night (as Scott, our dear music minister does!) to lead his people in praises? I believe He would.
As for music in praise to our Lord, there are more verses that support it than I'd care to count. Here are just a few. I'm sure you've heard them before, and I'm not ever going to change anyone's mind, but I have to live by my ideal of speaking where God's word speaks.
1 Kings 10
11 Hiram's ships brought gold from Ophir; and from there they brought great cargoes of almugwood and precious stones. 12 The king used the almugwood to make supports for the temple of the LORD and for the royal palace, and to make harps and lyres for the musicians. So much almugwood has never been imported or seen since that day.
Psalm 27
5 For in the day of trouble
he will keep me safe in his dwelling;
he will hide me in the shelter of his tabernacle
and set me high upon a rock.
6 Then my head will be exalted
above the enemies who surround me;
at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy;
I will sing and make music to the LORD .
Psalm 33
1 Sing joyfully to the LORD , you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.
2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.
3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully, and shout for joy.
I love you all... whether you agree with me or not, I will not be angry, because we are all one body, baptized for the remission of sins into Christ Jesus our Lord.
Although there are obviously sharp discussions taking place on this website, I doubt (and sincerely hope) that hate is not the motivation behind any of them. I dare say that the majority of the "hateful" posts come from those advocating unscriptural change in Christ's church.
Speaking of scripture, I'm glad that you included some in your reply. The scriptures settle any and all issues. However, I didn't see any New Testament authority for using instrument music during worship in your post. Is it because there is none? If we can rely on Old Testament/Mosaic authority, then I'm sure you wouldn't object to offering animal sacrifices and burning incense instead of taking the Lord's Supper?? No, I thought not.
Please refer to Leviticus 10:1-3, an example of progressing beyond what God commands. This example even deals directly with worship - in doing something that "God had NOT commanded". Compare that with I Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells us to "not go beyond what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant in behalf of one another". In II John 8-10, we are warned to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". The derivative of the Greek root word for "goes on ahead" means "progress".
I applaud your statement: "... I have to live by my ideal and speak where God's word speaks";however, we can't pick which part to follow. "All scripture is given by inspiration" and it must be "rightly divided".
I was always told that we are not to follow the Old Law, as it was abolished and replaced with the New Law. It doesn't say that the Old Testament was abolished, just the Old Law. And from what I was told, the Book of the Law consists of the first five books of the Bible (for those that aren't familiar, that'd be Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).
The Law it refers to, if my Bible classes have been accurate, pertains exactly to what you're talking about -- we don't have to sacrifice animals, because Jesus was our ultimate sacrifice. The Israelites lived under a system of some 600-odd laws, which were removed when Jesus died to take away our sins.
The music that is mentioned in Psalms is not condemned, and it's not a part of the Old Law. It is a part of the Old Testament. Please note the difference. I'm not completely advocating their use in the church; I've grown up without them and it just seems normal to me. You grew up hearing that they are condemned and are instruments of Satan, so you still see it as that. The use of instruments in the Old Testament did not seem to be included in the actual Old Law teachings, so if you ask me, they would continue to be valid during the New Testament times. To me, that's just syllogism. But since I'm posting on this site, I guess that's called "being a change agent".
People wrote and sang their own songs. David even sang and meditated on a Psalm ON MY BED. That means that David spoke a Psalm to himself and meditated on it in his heart. Even in the Synagogue people cantillated (not singing as we know it) the PROSE parts of the writings before they began SPEAKING to one another with the poetic or metrical material. This metrical version can be divided into 5 books to somewhat parallel the Torah.
Lu.24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be FULFILLED, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the PSALMS, concerning me.
Paul's use of Psalmns, Hymns and Spiritual songs are all clearly defined (especially in the Greek version) as TYPES of the metrical material in the BOOK of Psalms. In addition, the Maschal or Maskil (?) were dark sayings or proverbs in the Book of the Psalm.
The synagogue or church in the wilderness (Qahal) was for TEACHING the Word of God. They were allowed to CALL the assembly with the silver trumpets. However, when they assembled as a SCHOOL the triumph over or "playing instruments and making a joyful noise before the Lord" was forbidden in Numbers 10:7. It was just common decency that people didn't sing, play, dance and clap their hands as the WARRIOR'S chant when God was speaking through Moses or others.
It is quite proper to sing or as Paul would day, SPEAK a Psalm about bashing out the heads of little Babylonian babies if it is used to SPEAK OR PREACH one to another and explain the meaning as a sermon. The prose record fills in the details.
Paul outlawed anything which would create SPIRITUAL EXCITEMENT which was the goal of the "alarm" or "triumph over" condemned for the synagogue in Romans 15. THEN you can "glorify God with ONE MOUTH and ONE VOICE by reciting "that which is written." That which is written is by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11)
Most of the Psalms make no mention of instruments; when instruments are mentioned the purpose is magical or condemning.
http://www.piney.com/MuArndt.html
Look at the color-coded chart to see that the colors indicate a PROCESSIONAL, new moons, symbolic, VENGEANCE, arousal or AWAKENING the HARP, FEAR of being cast off, historical warning, prophetic. None of them are remotely related to "congregational worship" because the people's congregation always met in a form of the synagogue and "there was never a praise service in the synagogue" any more than you hire one to help you teach your chemistry class.
Psalms are actually DEMANDED to "teach that which is written" but NEVER for a pagan "praise service" trying to get cozy with a Spirit God. The commanded ACT is teaching. With Jesus the SINGING was "grieving out" a hymn. And it is His Death, not the resurrection of ISHTAR, which we are to honor with REVERENCE and GODLY FEAR because: "God is God and you are not."
Re: Old vs. New (by Jeremy) June 24 2003, 11:19 PM
June 25 2003, 3:06 PM
Jeremy:
In Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, there are numerous references to: (1) tithe, (2) tithes or (3) tithing. Why is Madison’s preacher, as some others in other congregations do, too, now teach and preach on “tithing”? I agree with you -- but it’s also common knowledge -- that the Old Testament portion of the Holy Scriptures has not been abolished. I believe you should bring this to Dr. White’s attention that this law or command [of TITHING] is no longer applicable to New Testament Christians.
I’ll make a correction to your statement regarding music. It’s true that MUSIC is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. And so is “MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS”! But you need to discover for yourself that in no instances were they ever used in the WORSHIP assembly. The passages are in reference to honoring kings and rulers and, in many instances, to idolatrous worship.
But you must agree with me that the Old Testament is really congruent to the peoples of the world and their practices AT/OF THE TIME, just as the New Testament contains doctrines and beliefs that “New Testament” Christians must adhere to in our time. We must not get the purposes for having both testaments confused. Does it mean we should disavow or disregard the Old Testament? No! No! No! There are principles that are unchanging and consistent in both sections of the Bible. But commands and practices change. Dispensations change. I believe, as the Bible says, that there is merit to learning something about the past … you know … that thing that we call “history.” But that’s the extent of it: HISTORY. It is good to know, for example, that prophecies contained in the Old Testament, have been fulfilled, such as: the coming of our Savior and the establishment of the His church.
Finally, let me just quote to you so that many people will not be confused any longer: “FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4).
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate not being attacked by you, as I was worried I would be (I've been reading a lot on this site!), and will answer your questions as best as possible.
The "hateful" comments I have read in fact have not come from those who "advocate changing the scriptures" as you have suggested. Rather, they have come from traditionalists who seem that they would rather confuse most readers than give a clear message to all. I certainly don't know if this is their intent, and I hope not, but I know that there are many posts that I simply have to skip, as I am not educated enough in languages like "Subblish" to understand the meaning of what they are trying to say.
As for there not being any scriptures in the New Testament SPECIFICALLY CONDONING instrumental worship, many searches through my own Bible and several concordances do not bring up any SPECIFICALLY CONDEMNING it. The Bible says to sing hymns- where in the New Testament does it say they were not accompanied? I know that Ephesians 5:19b it tells us to "sing and make music in your heart." For many of us, the music in our hearts means joy, peace, love... Singing and making music in my heart is a part of my everyday life. I praise God because my heart knows nothing else. I do so by "singing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs."
I read the passage from Leviticus that you referred to. I also read the preceding chapters. From your point of view that you presented to me, this has to do with sacrifices- the Old Testament form of atonement, so it should not be a valid point anyway. It is also in the Old Testament, so it doesn't really "count" as a true example.
As for going beyond what is written, isn't taking things to a right-wing extreme in one direction the same as taking things to a severe liberal position in the other? If you read the verses leading up to verse 6 in 1 Corinthians 4, you will see that the entire discussion is about judging others "before the appointed time" and we are to "wait until the Lord comes." At the end of verse 5, it states that his light "will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God." The entire text of verse 6 is as follows: "Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, 'Do not go beyond what is written.' Then you will not take pride in one man over against another." Paul states here that he is instructing them how to discern the MEANING OF A SAYING. Where was your contextual basis for this point?
2 John 1:8-10 in fact does state that we are to "watch yourselves" and avoid anyone that "goes on ahead". Were you aware that the Amish also use this verse as part of a scriptural basis for the way they live? They believe those who make progress are doomed. I believe, as do many others, that this passage is dealing with those who present a new gospel, who "make progress" with the words of Jesus... that is to go ahead with their own version of the plan of salvation.
Isn't salvation by God's grace more important than whether instruments are used in His church? Let me ask you this... and Mr. Subblett I'm sure I'll hear from you, so answer this question for me.
I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. (John 3:16, Acts 16:31, Hebrews 11:6) I have repented of my sins. (Luke 13:3-5, Luke 15:7, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) I have confessed the name of the Lord (Matthew 10:32-33, Mark 8:38, 1 Timothy 6:12-13, 1 John 4:15, Romans 10:9-10, Acts 8:36-37) I have been baptized into the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins (Matthew 28:10-20, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 16:33, Acts 8:36-39, Romans 6:4-6, Colossians 2:12, 1 Peter 3:21, Acts 22:16, Galatians 3:27, Ephesians 4:5). The church is Christ's body. To be saved, I am a part of His body. He HIMSELF is the head over it. (Matthew 16:18, Acts 2:47, Acts 20:28, Colossians 1:18, Ephesians 1:22-23, Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Colossians 1:23, Ephesians 4:15, Hebrews 12:23) My obedience in faith, repentance, confession and baptism also makes us a member of the body of Christ, both happen simultaneously. If I remain faithful until death, then the Lord will take me to Himself. (2 Peter 1:5-12, Matthew 24:13, Revelations 2:10, Revelations 2:26-27, Revelations 3:10, Revelations 3:21) I am faithful to my Lord. I study His word, I pray, I sing His praises, I attempt to live my life as a continual prayer and song to please Him. Because I agree that using musical instruments in the service is acceptable (and even pleasing!) to God, does this mean in your eyes that I am going to hell?
I read somewhere else on this site (I believe in one of the sponsored links) that one of the reasons that community churches are not Christian is because of the extra conditions, such as signing covenants, they impose on those who wish to be members of the church. Is not requiring that they do not wish to use instruments in worship, or requiring that they don't clap hands also imposing a condition on being a member of the body of Christ?
Going back to your reference in 1 Corinthians 4, Mark... if we follow our eyes in the natural progression to the end of the chapter, we see in verses 21 and 22 the following:
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power. What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love and with a gentle spirit?"
I don't know about any other people that agree with my viewpoints on music in the worship service, but I feel thoroughly "whipped"
Moselle, I don't know how I get across the point that we are not talking about you other than to answer specific questions.
Now, If my name were Jesus or Jehovah- Saved I might give you a good grade for all of your works. However, it is carefully taught DIVERSION to try to define the evil uses to which MUSIC is put by testing it by ME or THEE. If you turn out to be the Messiah and I turn out to be Satan, not one jot or tittle will change in the inspired Word.
The other deliberate lie is about Godly commands, examples and inferenes, and about the silence of Scripture. The Bible beginning in the garden of Eden is not silent about Satan's WHOLLY SEDUCTION of Eve, or as it does a flashback to the heavenly realm where he/ she led the angels astray. The CARNAL WEAPON or LIFELESS instrument was MUSIC which always went along with other devices to duct-tape the mouth of God.
Where the preachers lustfully lie about silence and commands, I have posted a stream of quotations from the Bible and historical writers to PROOVE that what is called "legalistic" flows out of the heart of God. Scripture is NOT SILENT about honoring God's Silence.
Contrary to your false trail of tears, I don't do HEAVEN or HELL but all of the Biblical and contemporary writings during that time proves that DOING music for the synagogue (not church) violates the law given to the Israelites for "the church in the wilderness." Other passages try to SILENCE the words of Christ. If you are singing secular tunes with instruments no lawyer on the face of the earth could prove that you are worshipping God, meaning TO GIVE HEED to Him.
I don't jump into musical churches as they deliberately organize to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT to steal non-instrumental churches. You cannot name a single non-instrumental church in history which sent out "evangelists" to use the law to force people to use instruments and pay "taxes."
This site is primarily directed at churches which HAVE BEEN or are BEING confiscated by bandits as evil as history knows of. So, if you are not stealing a non- instrumental church, just cool it. Maybe someone will send your list of works on ahead but as you see them as LAW they will all fall into dust if you conspire to TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE during "class time."
There isn't much to gain by debating which "side" posts the most venomous statements. I have been repeatedly attacked by cowardly, anonymous people who appear to enjoy a fight rather than a discussion. I choose to stand by the Bible as my sole source of authority; not plotting a "conservative", "liberal", or "moderate" course. The truth is the truth.
I very much appreciated (and agree with) your detailed description of coming to salvation. Christ adds one to His assembly when that person accepts His grace through faithful obedience. From your posts, I see that you also believe this to be true. However; our particular disconnect appears to be one of scriptural authority, which includes the issue of instrumental music in worship to God and whether or not this is a "salvation issue". We should all respect God's authority and never be presumptuous concerning anything we do during worship or in our everyday lives, for that matter.
I found it ironic that in your first post, you listed Old Testament passages to support your initial argument but said that my point concerning Leviticus 10 "didn't count" because it was in the Old Testament. The offering of "strange fire" was an act of worship of the priests. This wasn't a violation of a "thou shalt not", it was something that "God commanded them not". In other words, God was silent on this issue! That was my reason for quoting that passage. If the Bible has to tell us EVERYTHING that we cannot do, a human being could not print, read, or carry it because it would be an endless document. Also, there would be no end to what is "authorized": "let's shoot off pyrotechnics during worship and really liven it up - the Bible doesn't say not to". Just because something is done in the name of worship does not mean God will accept it (cf. Mt. 7:21-29). We must worship both "in spirit and truth" doing "all in the name of the Lord (John 4:24; Col. 3:17).
I cannot pass judgment upon you, Moselle. I can only say that the New Testament does not authorize many things practiced today, instrumental music being but one of them. Let me respond to your question with a question: are you so absolutely convinced that instrumental music is pleasing to God so that you will wager your soul's eternal destination over it?
I was referring to the point that you made, when I said that it didn't "count." There again goes my little bite of sarcasm that I need to get rid of- and probably doesn't come across on a computer screen.
:-)
As to my eternal salvation... I am sure, 100% that I am saved and going to heaven. What you've just given me is the red fish argument... "You can't be sure you're right, so why don't you just join up with us?" Well I AM SURE THAT I AM SAVED!!! I am not sure I'm right on the musical instrument issue, because there is NO CLEAR CUT STATEMENT CONDONING OR CONDEMNING THEM IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. It does not say in ANY of Paul's letters or Jesus' instructions, "Do not use musical instruments when you join together, But rather praise the Lord with your mouth only." If it said anything remotely close to that, I'd agree with you, and leave my church. My church has shown me Christian love. They preach the gospel of salvation. I am a part of a family who loves me. Mark- I'm going to heaven. I'm so sure of this that yes, I would risk hearing musical instruments in worship. Because God hears praise, and he loves it.
Now, since this is the last day that I'm posting (you can find my reasons in a post under the topic I started), I would like to say goodbye and good luck to all of you. I will still check in occasionally to read, but mostly to check on what prayer needs exist. I need to get ready for work, so y'all have a good day...
I hate to end this discussion with you but I hope that you will give the matter of scriptural authority much prayer and study. The Bible does not have to explicitly state a "thou shalt not" for something to be sinful. When it does tell us to do this or that, we are not at liberty to add to or take from it. This isn't a new problem and is the root cause for much division. Speaking where the Bible speaks is nothing more than "speaking as it were the oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11). Silence doesn't grant permission, either in religious or secular matters. If a teenager was sent to the store with a list of 10 items and they returned home with 12, was buying the extra items authorized? Do property tax exemptions for people over 65 apply to me when the law doesn't explicitly state that it doesn't apply to those who are 42 years old? When I signed a surgical consent form to repair a torn abdominal muscle, did I also authorized the doctor to scope my knee? I didn't say not to. If any document is considered as being authoritative, silence (what the document does not say) must be respected or else why would the document even be considered authoritative in the first place?
The Bible contains "all truth" (John 16:13); "everything pertaining to life and Godliness" (II Peter 1:3); and was "once for all delivered to the saints" (Jude 3). If the Bible is complete, how can we reason that we have permission to do something that it does not authorize? Look closely at Hebrews 7:14 and you will see that "...Moses spoke nothing (was silent) concerning priests" in reference to Jesus not being a Levite. Did God have to explicitly state that priests couldn't come from the other 11 tribes when he ordained this duty upon the Levites? Hebrews 11:4 and I John 3:12 recount the "evil" of Cain's sacrifice. Yes, it was evil to kill his brother but he killed him because his "deeds were evil". He offered a sacrifice that God hadn't commanded and that was sin! Numbers 20:1-12 records Moses' sin of striking the rock for water instead of doing what God told him to do the 2nd time, which was to speak to it. "It worked once, it should work again", after all, God didn't say NOT to hit the rock. That mistake cost him entrance into the promised land.
We need to realize that God doesn’t need any advice and that the Bible doesn’t need to be improved. Most importantly, we need to let God be God and tell us what He wants and how He wants to be worshipped, rather than wanting to do what makes us feel good and important.
I know, I know, "we don't use instruments in our church." Yet the defenders always seem to defend instruments which was the ultimate goal of the "worship leader" heresy.
One of the lapses of those who claim superiority to all of Biblical history is that thy assume a HARP but there is no HARPIST listed as a gifted person.
Paul's direct command was to SPEAK or PREACH one to another, the resource was "that which is written," the Spirit or the Word of Christ. Early believers thought that both the singing and melody was in the HEART or the Spirit which is were Jesus said that worship takes place as one is devoted to truth.
People do an end-run around Paul's clear teaching that the ACT proved that church was a synagogue or school of the Bible. Why would the Spirit cause Paul to use the Greek word PSALLO if he intended worship IN THE SPIRIT. The word MELODY is not remotely a MUSICAL word. Even in its most ancient form:
Psallo (psao) meant:
I. to touch sharply, to PLUCK, pull, TWITCH, Aesch.; toxou neuran ps.
---to TWANG the BOW-string, Eur.; belos ek keraos ps.
---to send a shaft twanging from the bow, Anth.;
---so, a carpenter's red line, which is twitched and then SUDDENLY let go, so as to leave a MARK, id=Anth.
II. to play a stringed instrument with the FINGERS, NOT with the plectron, Hdt., Ar., Plat.
2. later, to sing to a harp, SING NTest.
In the New Testament the word had lost its warrior and therefore "musical" content and defined teaching with the singing (only) in the heart.
If your guitarist plays with a pick then he is not MAKING MELODY. Plucking with the FINGERS intends to carry the message that one YANKED, TWITCHED OR TWANGED a bow string or HAIR in order to PSALLO or make melody in the enemy's heart but leave him dead. Early harps were boards with ligaments (lifeless instruments) stretched across them. Whey you PLUCKED the string you grasped them with your FINGERS and suddenly llet them go. It ground the board into bits and left MARKS on it.
If you have ever TWANGED a bowstring without an arm guard you know that it leaves a MARK on your arm. It literally grinds it into pieces. So, the same meaning of PSAO to TOUCH, Crumble away, vanish, disappear. The SOP Jesus ground up for Judas carried the same meaning.
Why would Paul be ignorant of the meaning of EXTERNAL melody as a LITERAL WARRIOR'S attack on the literal heart to define a TEACHING and ADMONISHING assembly? There simply is no spiritual content in the word melody or psallo.
That is why the melody (not remotely harmony) is defined as IN THE HEART and directed to God. Paul interchangeably uses the word GRACE instead of melody. Grace then gently abrades the human heart or ADMONISHING would not take place.
EACH PERSON must make melody in the heart but you would require HARPISTS if Paul intended a "WARRIOR'S WEAPON OF DEATH" in its original meaning. For instance, Paul compared speaking in tongues to the harpist or trumpet player of warfare but he DID NOT speak of a HARPIST in the church assembly. For, instance the "ist" meaning is not attached to the church:
ki-tharoid-esis, eôs, hê, singing to the cithara
Paul would have had to say "Singing to the Cithara. Or,
Psalmoidia , singing to the harp. That is singing or ODEing to a harp played by a HARPIST. Paul used the word PSALMOS to define a spiritual activity WITHOUT professional melody makers. If the singing was TO a harp then Paul would ave used the word PSALMOIDIA.
lur-istes , ou, ho, player on the lyre
Paul does not define the HARPIST as a ritualistic functionary, therefore, Paul was not speaking of the twanging noise of the warrior's making a noise LIKE THUNDER. If a literal musical instrument is intended then every member must have a literal instrument and figure out how to play the instrument in THEIR HEART. No, this is not silly because literal melody would be to TWANG a literal bowstring to send a singing arrow INTO the literal heart. That is why many of the older members, not up to waging spiritual warfare against Jesus just run for cover before you can do them any more damage.
The Bible 100% of the time associates MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS with Warefare or worse. Those who make new musical SECTS know that they are waging spiritual warfare against Christ and His Word. They intentionally SOW DISCORD and boast about how they are going to TEACH AWAY the hundreds of broken HEARTS.
In Amos the musical ritualists went into captivity and death because of LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. Probably most churches are under the WARRIORS making literal melody in the heart to keep you ignorant. But, the truly good blind people go into the pit with the blind leaders simply because they DID NOT LOVE THE TRUTH.
“[1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk WORTHY OF THE VOCATION WHEREWITH YE ARE CALLED, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of YOUR CALLING; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. … [11] And he gave some, APOSTLES; and some, PROPHETS; and some, EVANGELISTS; and some, PASTORS (a.k.a. elders or shepherds) and TEACHERS; [12] For the PERFECTING OF THE SAINTS, FOR THE WORK OF THE MINISTRY, FOR THE EDIFYING OF THE BODY OF CHRIST…” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
Even though the office of “WORSHIP LEADER” is absent in the passage above and because certain congregations have this culture-designated leadership position and would not dare eliminate it, we need to know why he has so much control over an assembly of the saints.
I came across an article on “song categories.” No doubt the emphasis in the article is about MUSIC—as though music, not Word-centeredness, were the central focus in the gathering. It said, “A worship leader's song list is like a carpenter's toolbox - each tool being most effective when used according to its purpose. The equipped worship leader needs songs that not only fit his/her setting, but that minister in different ways at different times.” [The worship leader and HER setting? dc]
I found it interesting that the list included several categories including: adoration, authority, blessing and benediction, call to worship/gathering, comfort, commitment, compassion, confession, declaration … thanksgiving, triumph, unity, etc. In many churches—denominational or not—“celebration” service is very well emphasized. “Celebration” is one of the song categories listed in the article.
Here’s its definition or description of “celebration.” “Celebration: Express the sheer joy, laughter and exhilaration we experience by knowing God. THIS MUSIC MAKES US WANT TO DANCE!” Now we know why Madison’s Worship Leader loves doing his antics on stage, loves singing songs such as “If You’re Happy and You Know It [… clap your hands], loves initiating and encourages rhythmical handclapping during singing, loves initiating the applause after singing a really FUN song. Other songs: “Celebrate Jesus.” There is actually a music piece titled “CLAP YOUR HANDS” that the Praise Team performs in the assembly.
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Donnie Cruz
Emotion, bereft of truth, is an unacceptable substitute for true worship
September 26 2003, 1:02 AM
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MESSAGE FROM: “WORSHIP: ANTIQUITY, AESTHETICS AND EMOTION”
By John H. Waddey, editor of Christianity: Then and Now
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. . .
Aesthetics is the study and appreciation of things beautiful. It involves such things as art, sculpture and fine music. Art is beautiful. Fine music is inspiring, entertaining and relaxing. The thunderous peels of the pipe organ thrill the aesthetic nature of many souls. However scripture does not make esthetic beauty the standard for acceptable worship. God has specifically forbidden the making and use of statuary (graven images) for worship (Deut.5: 8-9). Even the great art of the Italian masters cannot be used as aids or objects of acceptable worship. Early Christians worshiped without fine opulent houses of worship, without fine art and sculpture and without the finery of instrumental accompaniment to their singing.
Emotion in worship has its place in worship. We must love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength (Mark 12:30). Emotion however, musts always be in subjection to the will of God. "Not every one that saith Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Mathew 7:21).
We must obey from the heart that form of teaching (Romans 6:17). Emotion, bereft of truth, is not just harmless; it can be an unacceptable substitute for true worship. It can lead to worship that is chaotic and confusing (I Corinthians 14:33, 40).
Acceptable worship must be "in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). That worship can be offered to God in a manner totally acceptable without a beautiful building, the use of the fine art, statuary, musical instruments and musically trained and directed choirs. It was so with those first Christians. It can be so even today.
. . .
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If the introduction of praise teams creates conflict and confusion
October 11 2003, 4:04 AM
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MESSAGE FROM: John Waddey, Editor of “Christianity: Then and Now”
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It is not wrong that good singers sit together … It is not wrong that they sit together near the front of the auditorium … There are however, some other important considerations regarding the use of praise teams: If the introduction of praise teams creates conflict and confusion in a congregation, leaders should consider Paul’s words, “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace...” (I Cor. 14:34). “Let all things be done unto edifying” (vs. 26). To those who insisted on using their gift of speaking in foreign tongues in the assembly, Paul said, “thou verily giveth thanks well, but the other is not edified” (vs. 17). Even if a praise team sings well and with good intentions but their presence causes confusion, the church is certainly not edified. Again Paul said, “Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God” (I Cor. 10:31). To cause confusion among brethren is not to the glory of God.
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Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison …
December 15 2003, 6:48 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ An announcement from the CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP Guide dated December 14, 2003.
——————————————————————————————————————————— Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for
the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish
him well and look forward to his return!
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This message has been edited by ConcernedMembers from IP address 67.32.218.191 on Dec 15, 2003 10:42 AM
Will the “church” office of “WORSHIP LEADER” be taking a sabbatical from Madison … too?
December 16 2003, 5:43 AM
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[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. [8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; [9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; [10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues. (I Corinthians 12, KJV)
[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? [30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (I Corinthians 12, KJV)
[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. [2] And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. [8] Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (I Corinthians 13, KJV)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. (Ephesians 4, KJV)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Stephen Vail led the singing at the first assembly (8:00 a.m.) on December 14, 2003.
Kevin Dunnebacke, with the Praise Team, led the singing at the contemporary musical worship (10:30 a.m.).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you remember that Madison self destructed? The ConcernedMembers began as a way to identify what was happening and give a place for ANYONE to respond either for or against.
We noted that the Saddle Back Plan or the Purpose Driven Cult--Now infiltrated all of the way to Hohenwald--was to INFILTRATE and DIVERT the church to turn it into "a theater for Holy Entertainment." That really means that Baptists, Presbyterians or the Church of God has INFILTRATED and using the old WARMTH AND LOVE scam changed the shepherds into wolves who BREAK DOWN THE WALLS.
The Madison elders and the preacher AFFIRMED the plan and even Judaized so far as to USE "Levitical singers" who mocked the types of Lord Jesus Christ and the TITHE which denounces the Atonement.
Now, I am informed that they have again tried to DIVERT the Concerned Members rather than "give an answer."
They bought up concernedmembers.net. Isn't that as cunningly crafty as a slug?
They HOPE to divert traffic from concernedmembers.com to THEIR counterfeit.
We have posted a page which will further explore how Christians can be so DIVERSIVE and DIVISIVE to try to silence anyone who DARES to protest.
http://www.piney.com/Concernedmembers.net.html
TAKE A LOOK and LOOK OFTEN because we will post information about what is happening on the HONEST FORUM.
The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader
September 6 2004, 4:22 AM
So, the office of a WORSHIP LEADER, identified as the “leader” who leads the “regular followers” into the “holy” presence of God, is no longer an alarming thing to the New Testament church? Maybe … maybe not…. Much has already been said about the evolution of the WORSHIP LEADER concept in the initial post above. So, let’s move on to Madison’s current situation.
All the while, since his return from sabbatical, Keith Lancaster has been the Worship Leader in the “contemporary worship services” at 10:30am every Sunday. Meanwhile, both Kevin Dunnebacke and Stephen Vail had been alternating the role of “song leader” at the 8:00 a.m. assembly. [No, I’m not seeking any explanation nor drawing any definitive conclusion at this time as to why Worship Leader Keith is not “performing” or assuming the “leadership” role for the entire congregation—i.e., both assemblies.] But see if you notice the most recent pattern at the early gathering:
July 18, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
July 25, 2004—Stephen Vail
Aug. 01, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
Aug. 08, 2004—Stephen Vail
Aug. 15, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
Aug. 22, 2004—Stephen Vail
Aug. 25 (Wednesday—see below)
Aug. 29, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
Sept. 5, 2004—Kevin Dunnebacke
Oops! No, the above is not a misprint. On August 27, 2004, I received the following information:
“Steven Vail’s employment was terminated at Madison Wednesday [Aug. 25] … ‘he will be seeking other opportunities.’”
… to which I responded:
“It’s a shame that this has occurred. In my opinion (and I’m not sure what yours is … at this stage [???????]), Madison should have terminated … um … what’s his face … Keith Lancaster. I think it’s a fair assessment that Keith is a much greater “expenditure” for Madison than Stephen was/is. The action is a clear indication of where the “new” leadership is taking the congregation to.”
Well, at this point, I’m not getting into the rest of my conversation regarding the “power play by Keith” or about “Keith and Buck” or the “threat to his position,” etc. Perhaps, later on….
For now, it’s sad to see the right person gone … or the wrong person staying … whatever!
Donnie
P.S.: Unless the above information is proven to be incorrect, it will not be retracted.
Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader
September 13 2004, 3:05 AM
According to the “worship” guide, on:
Sept. 12, 2004—Keith Lancaster (contemporary “Worship Leader”) was also the “Worship Leader” at 8:00am (“traditional”), instead of Kevin Dunnebacke. Well, so far, no one has denied that Stephen Vail’s employment was terminated. We’ll also see next Sunday and following, if Kevin will be back again to lead singing at 8:00 o’clock.
FYI, so far Keith has made the traditional folks “happy”—it’s part of the scheme. Of the 9 songs, all were hymns except one.
Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader
September 14 2004, 3:39 AM
CORRECTION: I have received word from someone who believes “the reason that Mr. Lancaster led both services was that Kevin was out of town this weekend...”
What a relief … it was not a permanent replacement after all!
In addition [the “other” word received]: “There is a definite disconnect between Bruce and Keith.... The underlying tension is growing....”
Well, it makes sense! It used to be that God’s “messenger” delivered His message, and it was a moment of great anticipation among the brethren to hear from God’s word. Today, that is still true to some extent. However, the emphasis is the holy entertainment in MUSICAL WORSHIP. There’s someone else who’s taken over and leads the “regular” folks into the “holy” presence of God—the Worship Leader RULES!
Re: The Office of a Bishop … of a Deacon … of a Worship Leader
September 21 2004, 2:55 AM
The correction pointed out to me that Mr. Keith Lancaster, the contemporary Worship Leader, was the “worship leader” at the early [8:00 o’clock] gathering last Sunday (Sept. 12) because Kevin was out of town was valid. Kevin Dunnebacke was back in town and led singing in the early assembly on Sept. 19. Thanks, Kevin, you’re back.
[Did anyone notice that the “CALL TO WORSHIP” portion of the choreographed contemporary worship program had the name of the Worship Leader misspelled as follows: “Ketih Lancaster”? I realize it’s some very insignificant news to tell—and please ignore me, forgive me—but I still have moments of pleasure in saying Ketih … Ketih. Just kidding, OK? Christians, let’s laugh once in a while—laughter is still the best medicine in the world!]
The “musical worship service” during the contemporary assembly under the guidance of Keith was performance-oriented as usual. I really mean “performance-oriented” because I or anyone should wonder what REAL “congregational singing” would be like without the dominant and overpowering Praise Team members being present, of course, with their individual hand-held microphones. Remember, THEY are THE Praise Team whereas ALL THE OTHERS in the assembly are NOT the Praise Team. Please, please make a note of the differences in the tasks—either one is a member of the Praise Team or one is not a member of the Praise Team.
Keith was in his usual charismatic-driven mode this past Sunday, Sept. 19. In case you didn’t know, he creates this concert-like atmosphere in the worship musical. The spirited singing of “Awesome God” would literally draw many in the audience to some long-minute applause!!! He has a way of jazzing up musical pieces and initiating rhythmic clapping. In other words, this kind of spirited experience seems to be how Keith interprets worshipping the Father “in spirit and in truth.” Wow!
Guess what? Keith got a dose of his own medicine this past Sunday. He wants everyone in the audience to be “charismatic”! Right!?! Well, a Pentecostal woman visitor took Keith’s prescription. After the singing of a contemporary “praise” song that had the words “ain’t no rock … ain’t no bird … ain’t no tree …,” the woman uncontrollably was screaming, “Hallelujah, Praise the Lord; I love you, Lord!” She did so again [“Hallelujah! Praise the Lord! I love you, Lord”] after the singing of another song that only the following “Love Feast” could drown out her screaming.
Perhaps, a lesson for Keith regarding his leading God’s people in His holy presence…? Perhaps not!
Charisma: attribute of astonishing power and capacity ascribed to the person and personality of extraordinarily magnetic leaders. Such leaders may be political and secular as well as religious. They challenge the traditional order, for either good or ill.
The word derives from the Greek charis ("grace") and charizesthai ("to show favour"), connoting a talent or grace granted by the divine. The term came into scholarly usage primarily through the works of the German sociologist Max Weber (1864–1920), especially his On Law in Economy and Society (1921),
in which he postulated that charismatic authority was a form of authority distinct from those of tradition and law.
The process whereby charismatic authority becomes transformed, or changed, to any of the other forms of authority (such as bureaucracy) is referred to by Weber as the "routinization of charisma."
Typically, the charismatic leader can demand and receive complete devotion from his or her followers. The foundation of charismatic authority is EMOTIONAL, not rational: it rests on trust and faith, both of which can be BLIND and uncritical. Unrestrained by CUSTOM, RULES, or PRECEDENT, the charismatic leader can demand and receive unlimited power.
In the original sense of the word, only such phenomenal personages as Jesus or Napoleon would merit the description charismatic, but in current usage, the term is applied more broadly to popular political leaders and CULT organizers alike: John F. Kennedy, Eva Perón, and cult leader Charles Manson—all have been labeled charismatic.
Of course, Jesus being a "Christian" SPOKE with authority but He cast out the charismatic PRAISE SINGERS like DUNG. Perhaps because THEY called Him the DUNGY GOD.
In a transitioning “a cappella” church, one transitional ploy is rhythmic clapping during singing—sort of an emulation of musical instrumentation. I have yet to hear “a cappella” clapping or clapping produced by the vocal cords and the larynx. This should be a great question to ask Madison’s Worship Leader, Keith Lancaster, who owns The Acappella Company and at the same time is a highly-salaried employee of the Madison congregation, whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence. [I had to catch my breath.] Ask him what the difference is between the non-vocal clapping NOISE and the sound of a musical instrument. Also ask him if loud rhythmic clapping is more (or less) irritating and annoying than the piano.
Another ploy is humming. The audience is not aware when this is going to occur—the “worship” program or guide does not indicate this. That’s right … the Praise Team that performs the humming either knows beforehand or is directed by the “Worship Leader” when to begin humming. Yes, it then results in a performance. Right!? The “Worship Leader” needs to be informed that humming violates Colossians 3:16 that says—“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
The question is—if musical instrumentation does not admonish, does humming or clapping? Actually, why do the Praise Team members waste their time and others’ with their unintelligible humming when they could just as well sing [say] the words, eh?
I have a question about your above post. You say that Bro. Lancaster's "main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence..."
I could not find this on Madison's website nor Acappella's website. Do you have a copy of his job description? If so, would you post it, please?
You’re correct … you would not find Keith’s job description on either website. Is there really any reason why—and what are the chances that—such websites would publicize private information? I don’t think so … and the chances are nil.
I would recommend taking advantage of the web search technologies that are available today. For example, search on key words “worship leader presence God” and thousands of links will be available to you in seconds. I suspect that the following links would be listed:
No, his job description would come from Madison not from websites that are only affiliated with Madision in your mind. If you want to battle this, stick to the things they actually say and do.
You're reaching, Donnie.
Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.
Here’s what I said earlier: “… Worship Leader …whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence.” Let me highlight the main point you both are trying to deviate from—“TO LEAD THE REGULAR FOLKS INTO GOD’S HOLY PRESENCE.”
His job description coming from Madison!?! You are correct. OK, I have stated my case. Now, it’s your turn to verify my facts by requesting a copy of his job description directly from Madison, and you can explain to the leaders your purpose for asking.
“Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.” That’s an interesting statement from you, B. It is common knowledge that only the opposition would think that an argument is erroneous. You said, “your strong ones [arguments]”—just about the only positive note coming from you, B, and I thank you for noticing my “strong arguments.”
I did not mention “resume”; the job description can be found in published books and manuals and on the internet.
Go for it, if you think you really need a worship facilitator to lead you into the HOLY presence of God—that’s your prerogative.
What others say:
“I am the leader of our assembly and I lead in worship each week. Before we start we invite the Presence of the Holy Spirit in and then blow the shofar. As we enter into His [the Holy Spirit’s] Presence, and it's all about Him [the Holy Spirit] we almost always experience His [the Holy Spirit’s] Presence in our midst. Healings, salvations, the presence of angels, etc….” (Bruce Hachey: easterbh@nb.sympatico.ca)
On “Worship Strategies”: “Clap your hands and shout with a loud voice … so if the church belongs to Jesus, it says in the word of God that what we must clap our hands….” (By Andre, South Africa: dancer13@webmail.com)
“So, remember when you lead the people in Worship. You are ushering them into the presence of GOD. Then GOD defeats the spiritual enemies.” (Larry Don Dunn: larrydondunn@hotmail.com)
Gayle D. Erwin on “The Worship Leader Mystique”: “… the worship leader takes on a much more important role because now worship typically lasts longer. However, the new longer role of the leader creates a certain territoriality that has brought division in more than one church I know. Whenever the worship leader begins to feel that the worship service belongs to him and that his worship understanding surpasses that of the pastor [Protestant, dc], trouble has arisen that will usually mean the exit of the worship leader. Sometimes, worship leaders feel that they are more in touch with what the Holy Spirit is doing than the pastor [cf.] is. Often they resent turning the service over to the pastor [cf.] because they feel that worship is going so well that to stop it for some other part of the schedule would be to quench the Spirit. That is an erroneous assumption that comes from a misunderstanding of what he is actually supposed to do.”
If the term "worship leader" is found in conjunction that often with "leading (others) into God's presence," why would we not find that on Madison's website, or even Acapella's?
Maybe it's because neither Bro. Lancaster nor the elders at Madison subscribe to that philosophy.
Bro. Cruz, there's plenty of other stuff to discuss without raising arguments that don't exist.
I have never run across an exception to the most ancient superstition: that musicians can lead you into the presence of the "gods." And they charge you, too. Here is the opening shot which is not posted on the internet anymore. I did not use carnal weapons (lifeless instruments) when I began fighting the principalities and powers in high places. One of the earliest TEAMS--about the time of Shelly--claimed that when they PERFORMED they became a LANDING PLATFORM for God. That is what the priests with the collection plate at the top of the Towers of Babylon preached. They said that your chances were very good of meeting the "gods" or "angels' ascending and descending the platforms representing the seven wandering stars or planets along with the sun and moon.
Position Title: Worship Facilitation Minister, Music Minister:
Rubel Shelly: "Position Responsibilities: This person will work with volunteer leaders, ministers and staff to coordinate the planning and
PRESENTATION of worship activities.
"Sunday worship activities will reflect the diversity of background and worship styles unique to the Woodmont Hills membership.
"In addition, "seeker" style assemblies will be planned and presented at other times of the week using contemporary music, drama and teaching formats more familiar to the unchurched segment of our community.
Rubel Shelly: In my opinion, the single most important thing to an authentically spiritual life is to learn how to praise God. It CONNECTS us to the source of all things spiritual.
Howard Publishing
"This is some of the finest music available. It has blessed me, taught me, and helped me grow closer to Jesus." Jeff Nelson, worship leader at Oak Hills church in San Antonio, leads the talented Covenant singers in this unique series. The entire selection of contemporary worship and praise songs is taken from the popular Songs of Faith and Praise hymnal. The page numbers from the hymnal are listed on the jacket so that listeners can participate in this rich worship experience. Listeners will be touched, encouraged, and ushered into the presence of God as they listen to and sing with this inspiring worship team.
Keith Lancaster
Shout of Praise
With a unison voice Sing a song reaching heaven with a
Shout of Praise
As we worship with all of our hearts
With due respect, God said that when HE is in HIS holy temple (me) let all the earth keep silence before Him. Jesus said something about CLOSETS. And Paul said SPEAK and did not even say ODE in the external sense because it is the PLEASURING and EXCITING word Paul outlawed. GOD ISN'T DEEF
Spoken Vocal: [Rubel says that we should HEAR HIM AUDIBLY. When that happens to me I give up coffee.]
"Christ was alive when the world began, yet I myself have seen Him with my own eyes and listened to Him speak. I've touched Him with my own hands. He is God's message of life. This one who is life from God has been showed to us and we guarantee that we have seen Him. I'm speaking of Christ, who is eternal life. He is with the Father and was shown to us.
Jesus said, MY WORDS ARE SPIRIT AND LIFE.
"Winterfest is the annual national gathering of Christian teens that takes place in Gatlinburg, Tennessee each year in February. The theme this year was "On The Mountain." Once again Jeff Walling was the featured speaker, and he did his usual fantastic job in communicating the gospel in a way that made our kids listen and think! Worship leaders Keith Lancaster and Jerome Williams did a great job leading us into God's presence in praise. Comedian Bob Stromberg was also a big hit.
With all respect to Keith's tender heart, the AOIDING and AEIRO of MUSIC to "lift you up to cut your throat" is (I say again) the meaning of HERESY: they lift you up to CARRY YOU AWAY but not to God's presence but for their own use.
This is not trivial. THEY claim to stand in the holy place (in church architecture) and claim to lead you into God's presence. In fact, ALL ceremonial legalists claim this: "I hope you will be here again at 6 O'clock to meet God." This CLAIMS that they are MEDIATORS between man and God. In Jerusalem this was Zeus and son Dionysus. Their "worship" was musical and erotic and, along with the GYMNASIUM and the idol of Zeus (preachers say Je' Zeus), was the Abomination of Desolation. Or "that makes desolate." Can't you smell the sulphur?
In seeking their worship facilitation minister, Woodmont Hills stress that in developing or facilitating the seeker service he must:
"Work with the worship planning committee, the preaching minister and worship presentation groups (music, drama and technical) to facilitate group worship experiences which will help bring worshipers into the presence of God. (This may have been taken off)
Minimum of Bachelor's degree or equivalent experience in performing arts (music, drama, directing, theatrical programming).
Affinity for wide range of musical a capella styles (classical to contemporary).
Well developed personal theology of worship.
Experience in planning and presenting worship activities.
Program planning and coordination experience.
Adept in committee work and cooperative work experiences.
Rubel Shelly: Praise ought to be in relevant words and images, and it needs to be set to contemporary music. (Rubel Shelly and Randy Harris, The Second Incarnation, p. 136)
For a more complete understanding of ancient Greek influences on the ancient and modern churches Click Here.
Facilitation means 2. Psychologically increased ease of performance of any action resulting from the lessening of nerve resistance by the continued successive application of the necessary stimulation." (Webster).
The “Worship Leader” needs to be informed that humming violates Colossians 3:16 that says—“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.”
__________________________
If humming violates it, then so does any song that does not teach or admonish one another. That would cover most songs that are directed toward God instead of each other.
You know what else would violate it? Every song that has a bass, tenor, alto or soprano part that does not make sense on its own. You might want to pull out your songbook now and start editing. It's probably going to take a while.
Humming doesn't violate anything! A violation of that scripture would be not "teaching and admonishing one another in psalms hymns and spirtual songs". That doesn't mean that EVERY song has to teach and admonish. Better yet, start reading some of the posts on this website. How many of them teach and admonish, and how many of them tear down individuals? Any scriptures we can reference on that issue?
We're losing focus on the real issue here. Instrumental music does not follow the pattern of the New Testament. Let's not weaken our stance on that by using easily defeated arguments on lesser issues of personal taste.
B? Interesting: the HUMMING noise includes that of the BEES. Or the sound of rushing waters or the low hum of an army on their way to destroy you or the HUMMING of then thousand bow strings being TWITCHED to make you panic and run.
Isn't this the old NEW STYLE logic? "I know that I should not HUM and irritate people but YOU are another one: you use a toothpick at the love feast." Won't work. You are correct: just about nothing has to do with TEACHING "that which is written" which NO ONE can misunderstand without wanting to. However, these FAILURES will not make people feel MOLESTED.
To fool the paying fools the soothsayer Hippolytus says that:
First, first produces a sound that the (attendant) youth may be TERRIFIED; and secondly, he makes a HUMMING noise; then, thirdly, he speaks through the instrument what he wishes the youth to say, and remains in expectation of the issue of the affair; next, he makes those present remain still, and directs the (attendant) to signify, what he has heard from the DEMONS.
But the instrument that is placed beside his ears is a natural instrument, viz., the windpipe of long-necked cranes, or storks, or swans. And if none of these is at hand, there are also some different artificial instruments (employed); for certain pipes of brass, ten in number, (and) fitting into one another, terminating in a narrow point, are adapted (for the purpose), and through these is spoken into the ear whatsoever the (magician) wishes.
And the youth hearing these (words) with terror as uttered by demons, when ordered, speaks them out.
Anything which disturbs or disquiets people absolutely "grinds" them into bits [the meaning of psallo or melody or SOP]. Humming by the team INTENDS to add some mind altering ingredient which THEY hallucinate makes them sound PROFESSIONAL and INSTRUMENTAL.
Hamah (h1993) haw-maw'; a prim. root [comp. 1949]; to make a loud sound (like Engl. "HUM"); by impl. to be in great commotion or tumult, to rage, war, moan, clamor: - clamorous, concourse, cry aloud, be disquieted, loud, mourn, be moved, make a noise, rage, roar, sound, be troubled, make in tumult, tumultuous, be in an uproar.
Though the waters thereof roar and be troubled, though the mountains shake with the swelling thereof. Selah. Ps.46:3
Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters Is.17:12
But they that escape of them shall escape, and shall be on the mountains like doves of the valleys, all of them mourning, every one for his iniquity. Eze.7:16
Some Greek WORDS involving HUMMING. Notice that the words APOLLO, the HARP (which hums or murmurs as well as twangs), the ROARING LION and the TETTIX which are the LOCUSTS of Apollo or Abaddon or musical performers or sorcerers or parasites."
bombos, ho, booming, HUMMING.. buzzing in the ears, rumbling in the intestines
êchos, ho, later form of êchê, tettix or the locust, ringing in the ears,
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves ROARING; Luke 21:25
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1Pe.5:8
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; Jude 1:12
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. Jude 1:13
Epaphrizo (g1890) ep-af-rid'-zo; from 1909 and 875; to foam upon, i.e. (fig.) to exhibit (a vile passion): - foam out.
Aphrizo (g875) af-rid'-zo; from 876; to froth at the mouth (in epilepsy): - foam.
Watch for that "egg white" flinging out of the mouths of the PERFORMANCE preachers and SANGERS and you will 'no wat i mean.'
tettix, Choerob. in Theod.1.292 H.), ho, cicala, Cicada plebeia or allied species, a winged insect fond of basking on trees, when the male makes a chirping or clicking noise by means of certain drums or 'tymbals' underneath the wings. They were thought to sing continually without food or drink,or on a diet of AIR and dew.... sing of, celebrate with SONG.
These were called the MUSICAL PROPHESIERS.
bombeô ( [bombos] ) make a booming noise; the stone flew HUMMING through the air, HUM, of bees, of mosquitoes, BUZZ, generally of sound, buzz in one's ears,
teretisma, atos, to, a HUMMING, twanging, phormingôn (harp) chirruping of cicadas or LOCUSTS.
phorminx, the instrument of Apollo, phormingos Apollôn. Metaphor for a BOW
Remember that psallo translated MELODY has nothing to do with MUSIC. You cannot TWANG even a harp string with a PLECTRUM or the piano hammer without EXPLICITLY VIOLATING the meaning of PSALLO. It speaks of TWANGING or twitching the hair out of the head of the enemy or the SOUND of long hair braided into a BOW STRING. The other "musical" connection is that you SHOOT OUT a hymn. Why is it that we CANNOT hold "melody" in the mind long enough to hear Paul say IN YOUR HEART. That means in your SPIRIT or MIND. How do I know that BESIDES just reading Paul's clear words? I remember that Jesus said that God only SEEKS worship in the PLACE of the human SPIRIT or MIND. This represents the Most Holy Place where any HUMMER would get executed before he got past the now-torn partition.
HUMMING creates anxiety in the "audience" which is the meaning of ODEING in the external sense. That is why Paul said SPEAK. Remember? Or "glorify God with ONE VOICE and ONE MIND" by TEACHING "that which is written." If people persist in violating Paul's explicit commands they WILL NOT be holding synagogue and I don't know whether that is any more of a sin than in Amos and Isaiah where they STARVED people to death for lack of the WORDS of God.
I truly believe that anyone who believes that you worship a HOLY SPIRIT God "in your flesh" with MUSIC simply has never become a DISCIPLE of Jesus. That is why we still read SPEAK or TEACH and translate it MAKE MUSIC with our pleasure centers. If we violate EVERY command and principle in the Bible that would not give DIVINE PERMISSION for show offs to HUM like little buzzing LOCUSTS thinking that SPIRIT ABRADING shows TALENT. If God had commanded music "to BRANG more souls to Christ" I would bet my life that the doctors of the Law would produce a MAJOR called "God is in His holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before HIM." The explosion of NEW STYLE MUSIC just proves that it is wrong and even evil.
Here’s what I said earlier: “… Worship Leader …whose main professional task (according to his job description) is to lead the regular folks into God’s holy presence.” Let me highlight the main point you both are trying to deviate from—“TO LEAD THE REGULAR FOLKS INTO GOD’S HOLY PRESENCE.”
His job description coming from Madison!?! You are correct. OK, I have stated my case. Now, it’s your turn to verify my facts by requesting a copy of his job description directly from Madison, and you can explain to the leaders your purpose for asking.
“Every erroneous argument weakens your strong ones.” That’s an interesting statement from you, B. It is common knowledge that only the opposition would think that an argument is erroneous. You said, “your strong ones [arguments]”—just about the only positive note coming from you, B, and I thank you for noticing my “strong arguments.”
I did not mention “resume”; the job description can be found in published books and manuals and on the internet.
Go for it, if you think you really need a worship facilitator to lead you into the HOLY presence of God—that’s your prerogative.
____________________________
First of all, you said that was Keith's job description, not the generic job description for a worship leader. I don't need a copy of Keith's job description, since I didn't attempt to post one online without having it. I don't know if they would give you one, but if you really want one ask Madison for it.
Second, my only opposition is to statements that can't be backed up by fact. In matters of scripture, I'm actually a pretty conservative guy. You would be suprised to find out that I have never attend a congregation with a "worship leader" or a "praise team". I have never pushed for one at a congregation either. I personally don't like praise teams (personal taste), but my only scriptural issue with them is if they include women. I don't believe an all male praise team is any less scriptural than a single male songleader (although I still prefer not to have a praise team at all). I do see the value in having the same songleader each week. It gives the congregation an opportunity to learn his nuances which in turn takes more of the "musical" thinking out of worship and allows more concentration on the words. Here's the point: when you make assumptions about the thoughts and motives of others, it only serves to weaken your valid points. You can hang your hat on a capella singing. Power point, however, is not an evil invention.
Here's my problem. New songs vs. old songs, songleader vs. worship leader vs. praise team has much more to do with personal tastes than it does with scripture. Whether you read the words to a song out of a book or off of a screen doesn't change the fact that you're reading the words to a song. Whether the song is in 4 part harmony or unison doesn't change whether you're singing praises to God. Whether a song was written by L.O. Sanderson or a Baptist worship leader doesn't affect its being scriptural or unscriptural. We could all sing a perfectly scriptural song that has been adapted from a Beatles tune. Musical taste is not an issue of scripture. The New Testament church wouldn't even know what 728b is.
There are things beyond eating meat sacrificed to idols that we can disagree on. (Although I usually try to stay away from any of that kind of meat.)
Re: You don't know me as well as you think. (B, September 24 2004, 3:48 PM)
September 28 2004, 2:57 AM
B,
I really like your “confession.” I am not going to take time to explain my position on the items you mentioned above. I think we are in agreement on most of them, e.g., that Power Point is not an evil invention. But I’d like to highlight what you said, “You don’t know me as well as you think.” It is good to know where you stand on a number of issues. What about helping us spread the word that we don’t “change for the sake of change” and that change is beneficial so long as it does not alter the truth nor improve upon God’s will for the church?
Humming, just like speaking in tongues, needs interpretation. If it can be interpreted and if meaningful thoughts can be derived from it, then, I will concede that it is not in violation of Colossians 3:16. Also, if humming really serves to teach or admonish one another, then, why not simply hum every song there is—it will make the life of worshippers much easier, won’t it? Also, I’m reminded of what Joel [a poster] has said that just like the “o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o” in singing, often it is difficult when and how one is supposed to do that. Now, the Praise Team members undoubtedly are capable of doing the o-o-o-o-o-o and hum-m-m-m-m because they have practiced or rehearsed their “worship” and have been trained to perform ... which brings us to the “performance” issue! Questions!?!?
I beg to defer—we’re not losing focus on the real issue here. The change agents have a subtle way of achieving their goals. The subtle way is called “incrementalism”: a little humming here and there, a little o-o-o-o-oink-oink here and there, a little rhythmic clapping here and there, a little production of sounds that simulate musical instrumentation, calling it “Praise Team” because the term “choir” is denominational, having a “worship leader” [you should know his “divine” function or task by now], etc. Before you know it, introduction of smooth, pleasant sounding musical equipment in worship is NO LONGER a big surprise!!!
Humming and speaking in tongues are not even remotely the same thing.
Again, you're ASSUMING incrementalism. Many of those "increments" are not wrong on their own. It is possible to have a praise team or a projector and NEVER have instruments in your worship service. It is possible to have an "ooing" part in a song (as we have since His Grace Reaches Me was in the old 728b songbook) without ever speaking in tongues. If you are well grounded in scripture, the slope isn't always as slippery as you would make it out to be.
It is unwise to lump everyone into the "Change Agent/Purpose Driven/Whatever other term will be demonized next" group, when some of them aren't heading down that road.
Donnie, this is what I meant when I refered to your weak arguments vs. your strong ones. Several of the arguments you have made assume peoples' intentions or future events. Unless you have some sort of powers we don't know about, you can't KNOW either of those things for fact.
Donnie, The point IS that PREACHERS, SONG LEADERS, PRAISE TEAMS, WORSHIP LEADERS, PRAYER LEADERS, COMMUNION SPEAKERS (I think I have covered all of the...OH ANNOUNCEMENT MAKERS...could'nt forget that one) ALL are PERFORMACES. All Practice what they are going to say or sing, all do NOT want to make fools of themselves before they get up and do whatever they are going to do, all are self-conscious, all want to do a good job and ALL are concerned what people think! Regardless of what the REAL motivation should be, ALL want to look compitent and sure of what they are saying/singing.
So....to say that PERFORMANCE is the issue...well you have just indicted ALL people who get up before ANY kind of assembly on Sunday, Wednesday or any other day.
Estill B. states: If the term "worship leader" is found in conjunction that often with "leading (others) into God's presence," why would we not find that on Madison's website, or even Acapella's?
Maybe it's because neither Bro. Lancaster nor the elders at Madison subscribe to that philosophy.
Bro. Cruz, there's plenty of other stuff to discuss without raising arguments that don't exist.
Estill, please correct me if the following information is wrong—I gather from an earlier post of yours that you have actually spoken with Keith Lancaster to try and resolve certain issues “between brothers in Christ.” But as far as I know, you haven’t related to us if your meeting with him was successful. Is this something you can tell us about?
The point I’m trying to make is that when you had your “conversation” with Mr. Lancaster, what did you think was his role in “worship” if he was not Madison’s “worship leader”? It appears that he must have benefited from your “friendly” conversation because you are now his defender. Whether or not that’s the case, I believe you should realize that the term “worship leader”—while it’s not offensive to you—is offensive to many members of the church who wonder how this terminology has evolved. Nowadays, in churches that esteem this office, the Worship Leader is ranked up there. Members may not know who the elders are, but they certainly know the “Worship Leader.” Perhaps, you need to do more research on your own as the term “worship leader” certainly did not originate with the New Testament church—it is a borrowed concept.
E.B., you’re not making sense by expecting the term “worship leader” to appear on the Acappella website. Please think about that.
Give credit to Madison’s website—it has better intelligence than to make a proclamation that “the worship leader leads ‘regular folks’ into God’s holy presence.” What do you think it would accomplish among churches of Christ with that given definition displayed online? Are you aware, though, that it has been (or is still being) advertised in the local newspaper and other publications that Keith Lancaster is the “Worship Leader” during “worship services”?
Give credit to the Madison Marcher also because where it used to frequently print “Worship Leader” or the Praise Teams, it does not anymore. This whole gamut of what may or may not seem controversial falls under the category of “slick operation.” The other word is “deception”—the way it has been throughout the “transformation/transition” of the Madison church into being a “Community Church.”
Whether or not you disagree, the fact remains that the term “worship leader” was an unknown commodity among churches of Christ—in fact, in the religious world, in general—for a long, long time. The terminology has evolved into his/her current, accepted “task” or “function” as one who leads the worshippers into the holy presence of God.
In response to your last statement, I don’t think we should underestimate the impact of the “worship leader” issue. After all, the change agents—in their attempt to transform the New Testament church of Christ into just another denomination—have cleverly and subtly used change in “worship style” [which encompasses the “well-paid services” of the Worship Leader] as a stepping stone towards achieving their objectives. The change agents’ goal is, “Why can’t churches of Christ ‘worship’ just like the way the denominational world does?” The change agents’ trouble maker is, “Why can’t we point out and make it an issue that ‘worship in the 50’s’ is boring, antiquated and obsolescent?” [I can go on and on with this.] But may I remind you that the redefinition of “worship” and the professional employment of the “worship leader” are crucial matters in Rick Warren’s “church growth” scheme. Unfortunately, certain churches, such as Madison, have implemented the scheme that is patterned after the 16,000-member Saddleback Community Church. How soon do we forget the havoc in 2001 during which hundreds of alienated Madison members left?
Bro. Cruz,
I have spoken to Bro. Lancaster. I should not/cannot/will not air publicly a private conversation. You know me better than that.
My point in mentioning it is that we all know this is our "first step" when we have something to discuss with our brothers and sisters. Will you do the same?
Donnie: "It appears that he must have benefited from your “friendly” conversation because you are now his defender."
Sorry if you took it that way. I asked where you got his "job description." I was taking you literally...that you had actually seen HIS job description from Madison and was simply asking if you could produce it.
E, If I may call you by your first name, If you finally succeed and convince one person that Donnie is a liar that will not change the fact that there is something strange going on up there. "Music" used in what is ignorantly called "worship" has NEVER had any other meaning than to dupe the dopes into the presence of the gods for which you PAY AND PAY AND PAY. The proof is not in the pudding but in the sexual or Vineyard's sexual-like climax with a god or goddess. No one no where no time will EVER find the MUSIC concept remotely connected to anything BUT literally having sex with the gods through her/his AGENTS the priests, encomiasts (praise singers) and prostitutes. No, don't try to pull that old CURSE of the sacrificial system with "noise makers" literally performing EXORCISM as they offered tens of thousands of innocent animals as TYPES or pretend-sacrifices of God in Christ. This kept them from being killed for violating one of the "laws" of Moses which were ADDED BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai.
Leading the children to Canaan land--the killing fields and baby-burning musical performances--is ALWAYS part of using the Levitical "warrior" panic musicians as PROOF that the "Holy Spirit is God's song writer and dance master."
"WORSHIP MUSIC IN THREE DIMENSIONS - How to Sing Down the Presence and Power of God," was written to help churches bring their congregations into the VERY LAP of God. Impossible, you say? We will teach you how this can come about, by your adapting a musical progression during this time of your worship song service that is called "The Temple Pattern." It involves a simple threefold process of musically moving from the Outer Court (celebration and jubilation) to the Inner Court (meditation and anticipation) and into the Holy of Holies (adoration and spiritual communion).
Don't buy into this blasphemy: it was always called FOREPLAY.
Doesn't Jeff Walling want to DARE TO DANCE WITH GOD. The look-alike models of this popular PATTERNISM is much more sexually explicit.
You may want to return and read Donnie's letter which has been read thousands of times. This is to the elders where probably ONE is the problem as the PRAISE LEADER is his "monkey's paw" to pull his nuts out of the fire.
If the Musical Worship Leader is the musical worship leader then a quibbler would deny that he has been HIRED to lead the "audience" into the presence of God.
But Jesus said that as God He will meet with the small groups who "come learn of me" and that worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit. NOT, as Tom would say a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. It was the WARRIOR LEVITES who mocked God in Christ INTO HIS DEATH and not the other way around. Any substitute for giving heed to the Words of Christ in song and sermon IS still leading people OUT OF GOD'S PRESENCE and that needs no proving.
E.B. your job is to red-herring people away from the stated goal of ALL TEAMS: Donnie will keep telling you that THERE IS NO OTHER RATIONALE ever stated except to LEAD the admiring audience using "THE IDOLATRY OF TALENT" SOMEWHERE. I quoted some of Keith's songs which CLAIM that it is into God's presence. If you get hired to PROTEST while the President of the United States is speaking your PROTESTING proves that you want to discredit the President. If, in the words of the Jewish Encyclopedia, you do what Jesus would hear as SCREECHING AND SCREAMING, then why would you insist on a WRITTEN CONTRACT to prove that Keith was hired deliberately as the SCREECH AND SCREAM MINISTER? As is well documented about Mount Sinai "The MUSIC makes the diagnosis of IDOLATRY certain." There is NO OTHER EXCEPTION but that Satan or the "demons" introduced MUSIC to bleed off worship from God.
"The same movements repeated without number, the volumes of sound, the ornaments and masks, all had one aim, one religious aim--emotional paroxysms in which all present were robbed of their self-possession and thus believed that their wish to secure the favor of the gods had been attained." (Von Hagen, Victory, The Aztec Man and Tribe, p. 97-99, Mentor)
One of the MARKS of the end-time prostitute false worship is MAKEUP just as Satan trained Genun or Jubal (which rimes with Rubel and is the father "without authority" of the Yobel or trumpet and the Jubilee.)
It ALL fits the pattern and it is an ANTI-Christian religion with not a HINT of Christianity as a School of the Bible with no "agents" seeing godliness as a means of financial gain (i.e. occupation).
After Ken's response, I've decided that he's only a monacle and a persian cat away from being the villian in a James Bond film.
There is nothing sexual about worship, and your constant reference to everything sexual and various gyrations and movements is either terribly misguided or just plain sick. I can tell you that people who attend churches with worship leaders, praise teams, etc. don't go there for sexual gratification. There is NO connection there.
Again, your response proves that you either didn't comprehend E.B.'s post or that you only say what you have in mind regardless of others' posts.
Re: Talk about coming out of left field (Bee, Sep 30 2004, 11:03 PM)
October 2 2004, 4:28 AM
B,
You are an intelligent person, but I think you need help in understanding Ken’s articles better (and mine, too). I realize that any sexual reference in anyone’s writing is easily visible to the “naked” eye. But let’s not stop there. Read further. Find out what the writer means by “MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai" or “sex with the gods and goddesses worshipped” or “securing the favor of the gods” or “the Levitical ‘warrior’ panic musicians” or the “idolatry of talent” or “emotional paroxysm” or “singing down the presence and power of God.” Also know about his contrasting message on meditation, adoration, spiritual communion … when Jesus said, “Come learn of me.”
E.B. is a fine Christian brother. But he knows better than to expect me to actually having seen Mr. Lancaster’s resume or job description [I did not employ his services, remember?] and to ask if I could produce it.
David,
I ran across your artical as I was searching to find where the term "Worship Leader" came from, what was its meaning and the intent of its position. Your words hit me hard as the Holy Spirit brought to light the ramifications of the points that were addressed. I have since contacted two of my pastors and was pleased when they both saw the implications of your work and agreed to search God's word to confirm my concerns of issues I have seen at our church.
I have continued my research and have come to a point where I need your assistance. In the third paragraph you make reference to the World Council of Churches implementation of the "church growth movement" through the use of the contemporary music format. I have yet to find any documentation of that on the WCC web site. Would you please provide for me a source or web link in order that I may submit that information to my pastors. With the goal of the WCC to have a united one world church, we have no desire to subject God's local church to the subdued infiltration of the enchanter.
There are many links in this section to the material you will need to review, In particular part 4.
All one has to do is to see that the same globalist that started the UN are the same ones that started the World Council of Churches (National Council as well) to be a "One World Government" and "One World Church" respectively.
Follow the memberships! In order to make their plan succeed they have to have associations, and worker bees.
Look at who those associations are, and how they are preparing the way.
Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members. The Willocreeks, The Saddlebacks, The Promise Keepers, the Catholic Church, and the Christian Church, The Methodists, Billy Graham and on and on. There are many smaller unknown organizations as well.
Even the Church of CHrist which would have never thought about joining the "World Council of Churches" are using their ecumenical materials through Saddleback's "40 Days of Purpose" programs, and even the church of CHrist Sunday school materials has been infiltrated.
One well known publisher, 21st Century Christian, uses materials written by the Christian Church, and then puts their own name on it for resale to the Churches of Christ.
Yes, it's a convoluted mess, that could have only been devised by satan.
Membership in World & National Council of Churches
February 12 2006, 10:34 PM
Brother Rhoades,
In your post you state:
"Follow the memberships!" and then go on to say (and I've included the whole paragraph for a reason),
"Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members. The Willocreeks, The Saddlebacks, The Promise Keepers, the Catholic Church, and the Christian Church, The Methodists, Billy Graham and on and on. There are many smaller unknown organizations as well."
Later you point out 21st Century Christian puts their name on materials written by the Christian Church.
Since I want to believe you have the best of intentions I'd simply like to point out your statements that I've quoted or mentioned above contain a number of errors. If one goes to the site for the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches links to the "member churches" are readily available.
A quick review of these sites reveals this about members and non-members.
Members of the National Council of Churches: Methodist (four types) and the Christian Church (Disciples)
NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent).
Of the churches you listed, only two are actually members. A great batting average but here it is misleading.
Members of the World Council of Churches (North America) reveals the same.
Simply as a matter of accuracy it would better not to speak of a church or a group of churches holding membership in an organization where they do not have such membership.
Also, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (Independent) have little more in common than the Disciples and the Churches of Christ (non-instrumental). To leave the impression the Disciples and the Independents are the same is, at the very least, a gross misunderstanding of their relationship.
Re: Membership in World & National Council of Churches
February 13 2006, 5:28 PM
You state above;
"NOT members of the National Council of Churches: Willowcreek, Saddleback (SBC), Catholic Church, and Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent)."
You are assuming that the Catholic Church is not a member, but yet on WCC web site, this is what is stated;
"- The Roman Catholic Church is a full member of many national ecumenical and several regional ecumenical organizations and has a regular working relationship with the WCC."
These memberships and "working relationships" are all a twisting of words.
Maybe I should have said all of these groups have "connections", "memberships", or "working relationships"
Your failure to grasp the impotance of what is happening here,
and your uninformed debunking sets others up worse than my lack of detail.
Without conceding your contention that the Roman Catholic Church is a part of the World Council of Churches because the WCC claims on its site it has a "working relationship" (or connection, or whatever)...
OK, now demonstrate how Willowcreek, Saddleback and (especially) the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (also known as Independent Christian Churches) are associated with the World Council of Churches or the National Council of Churches.
Do you know the difference between Mainline, Evangelical and Fundamentalist Churches? How about those that are normally described as Conservative and Liberal?
Are you aware there is a difference between the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ (who have membership in these organizations) and the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (who do not and would not have membership in the WCC or NCC)?
Are you aware most Mainline churches (headquarters and individual congregations), who make up the World Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches, have little or nothing to do with the Willowcreek Association, Saddleback, etc.? That they pretty uninformly dislike them?
“Your uninformed debunking sets other [sic] up worse than my lack of detail.”
Reminds me of a friend who once pointed out to a speaker, he agreed with his premise but was troubled by his example which was untrue (the gentlemen made specific charges against the family of a man, whom they both considered a heretic, which were demonstrably false). He feared when people became aware of these “details” they might doubt the veracity of his other statements and the conclusions he had drawn.
The gentlemen’s response? Something along the lines of, Don’t bother me with the details, we must defend the truth!
Sir, if truth is unimportant then why defend it? If truth is supported by "untruth" is it really truth? Some of your statements, and the many of the charges made in the editorial you reference, are demonstrably false and misinformed.
For example, Do you even know what the term "church growth movement" refers to? If you say, "marketing the church" or "contemporary worship" then it simply demonstrates you have an uninformed understanding of the term. The fact some people use it in this way doesn't "prove" any more than their lack of understanding. And if you say, "but that's how most people understand the term" then I'll ask you how most people in the world understand "baptism" and then ask you to compare it to what the Bible reveals in the New Testament. Does the majority understanding make it right?
Brother, this whole site points out we can’t keep churches from splitting on a regular basis but you believe some “Big” minions are pushing us toward one “world” church (forging together all those churches on the earth who call themselves Christian). What an interesting contradiction: "division is bad" and "unity is evil."
If you are not willing to concede that you were wrong concerning the Catholic Church in the above post, then we certainly won't waste our time trying to prove the other connections.
So which is it Joe? Does the Catholic church have some connection, membership, or "working relationship" with the World Council of Churches?
Lets get this straight before we move futher into the "Fruity Loop"
If I were mistaken about the membership of the Roman Catholic Church in the World Council of Churches I would concede it. I am not mistaken.
I will concede the World Council of Churches, in speaking of the "ecumenical movement’s major achievements over the past fifty years," states:
- The Roman Catholic Church is a full member of many national ecumenical and several regional ecumenical organizations and has a regular working relationship with the WCC.
Viewing the entire page (http://wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/index-e.html) allows the viewer to see this in the context of the WCC’s attempt to claim continued relevance and leadership in the “ecumenical†movement (I am neither a fan nor a supporter).
For the World Council of Churches to claim a "working relationship" is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church (not a sympathizer or apologist for the RCC either) placing "membership" with them. The WCC would love this but the RCC has never made this move. Read the Vatican's "Dominus Iesus" and the reaction of the "member" churches of the World Council of Churches and you'll understand why the RCC has little motivation to join the WCC.
If your "proof" for the membership of the others mentioned is based on the same type of “proof†as that for the RCC’s membership, then it would in fact be a waste of time. An instructor in Church History at Freed-Hardeman use to caution students concerning the claims of the Roman Catholic Church, "Saying it doesn't make it so."
Words have meaning. If they are as fluid as you suggest then truth is indiscernible. You claimed “Most of the ecumenical movement shakers today are members.†Therefore you, not I, have the responsibility to prove “working relationship†= “membership.â€
Like I have previously stated; "My original post should have said all of these organizations are connected in one way or the other, to achieve their ecumenical goals"
To save time I used the word "membership" which may not have been the best terminology.
As an example the United Nations has memberships. If I said that both the United States and the National Rifle association were members of the United Nations, I would be technically wrong or technically correct, depending on how you looked at it.
Technically, the United Nations only has memberships for countries, however they do have what they call NGO (Non Governmental Organizations) that can be members (a different kind of members)as well.
Those that have studied the organizational charts of these various groups realize that there is not a clear organizational structure, even though they are all connected.
It's mean't to be obscure.
If you can't agree that the Catholic Church and the World Council of Churches are together in their ecumenical goals in some sort of relationship, then we can't take this any futher.
By the way I never said The Church of Christ was a member of the WCC. All I was eluding to was that some Sunday School materials were coming from another church body that were members of the WCC, UNknowlingly by the Church of Christ.
To say the WCC and RCC have some similar goals in terms of ecumenism, though the means of acheiving it come from such vastly different perspective it is doubtful they will ever agree, OK, that I'll concede.
Though it may be best we not go much farther I should explain: I never thought you were implying that churches of Christ were a part of the WCC or sympathetic to the organization or its means of achieving "unity"
The confusion between "Christian Church (Disciples/Disciples of Christ)" and "Christian Church" is understandable. Just look at the names--it is easy to miss the "chalice" symbol or the word Disciples which is often to the side or underneath.
Just for the record, the materials sold by 21st Century Christian (in which I have no vested interested and which we don't use) are from the Christian Church/Churches of Christ (aka Independent Christian Church). They, like Churches of Christ, have a common history with the Christian Church/Disciples. It simply took them longer to recognize the liberal theological base of the Disciples and so it took them longer to recognize they could not enjoy fellowship with them (or even be considered a part of them).
The independents have no denominational structure, no headquarters, no governing body, etc. Each congregation is autonomous. Thus, the Christian Church referenced with a relationship with a Church of Christ publishing house is not the Christian Church whose membership is in the WCC.
Nothing is more important to the Christian (or to all humanity) than the Law of God. The Law of God ought to be held in the highest esteem by everyone in the world, and that should include all parts of the Law, not just sections that some people consider more significant than others. Indeed, the whole Law represents the foremost teaching of the Holy Scriptures. This is why the doctrines concerning the Law and its holiness are the most profound and meaningful in the Scriptures. Such doctrines reach this stature of importance because the Law is nothing less than the dictates and commands of God the Father. It is God who legislates the Law to govern and to educate humanity.
The type of attention by human beings to that Law (and the amount of obedience they show to its dictates) is the standard by which God the Father and His Son Christ Jesus will view humans on Judgment Day in all matters of rewards and blessings (or, alas, also in affairs dealing with punishments and curses.) Because of this, it is of utmost importance that Christians should know their legal positions before the Father in all factors relating to God’s holy Law. As a matter of fact, and in the simplest of terms, the Law of God is the vehicle by which sin is defined (1 John 3:4). It is the written code for conduct by which mankind will be judged at the divine tribunal of God the Father and of Christ Jesus. This means that the Law is a serious thing to consider. In this book, the Law is given continual respect and honor, and I hold it in the highest esteem. It is recognized as holy, just and good. In a word, it is sacrosanct.
Look at some essential aspects of the Law of God. The Scriptures speak about a particular “day” as important to God. To illustrate a point, let us for a moment look at that “day.” Without controversy, one of the most important segments of the Law is the command to obey the Sabbath day of God (from Friday sunset to Saturday sunset). Among all the laws of the Bible, the Sabbath is one of the most significant and holy commandments that anyone can find.
It is time that all Christians (and all people in the world) understand just how important is the Sabbath day (along with all the other laws of God). These biblical laws should be acknowledged by mankind and strictly obeyed if they pertain to you and to me. Indeed, the Jews counted the number of laws that God gave to Moses and they came to 613 commands. All of them were God’s teaching to Israel to help them in their obedience to Him, and they all define what sin is (1 John 3:4). Since the Law is of such paramount issue, this book, of necessity, will pay utmost attention to all the divine faculties that comprise God’s holy Law, including matters about the Sabbath.
Permanence of the Law
How must Christians reckon the Law of God in their appraisals? Paul tells us in no uncertain terms how important and how holy, righteous, and good the Law of God is to all Christians. Paul’s teaching also extends to all humans on earth. So, let us fuse together from Paul’s writings in the Book of Romans a montage of facts on the permanence and use of the Law.
“Do we then make void the Law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Law. ...
The Law has dominion over a man as long, as he lives. ...
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, just, and good. ...
for we know that the law is spiritual. ...
For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. ...
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God. ...
that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us. ...
for the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
Romans 3:31; 7:1, 12,14:7, 22, 25; 8:4, 7
To the apostle Paul, the Law was at the highest pinnacle of worth and importance. It not only defined what sin is, it was also (as was well known at the time) the channel through which all mankind will be judged when mankind stands before the judgment seat of God. That’s right, the Law of God will be your judge.
A Deliberate, Yet Divine, Contradiction?
Yet in spite of these wonderful and true teachings about the holiness, righteousness, and permanence of the Law of God — and its effect over all humans until they die — the apostle Paul also taught that all Christians are no longer“under the Law.” By that negative statement, as we will see, he even meant under the Ten Commandments, as well as under the whole Law in the main context found in Romans chapters 6 through 8. Though Paul held the Law of God in utmost respect and esteem, he strangely appears to contradict (so it seems) those very teachings of the permanence, heedfulness, and holiness attached to the Law of God.
Look at another montage of texts. Starting in Romans 6:15 note how Paul said that Christians “are not under the Law, but under grace.”
“If the husband be dead, she is loosed from the lawofher husband ... she isfree from that Law ... wherefore, my brethren, you also are become dead to the Lawby the body of Christ.”
Romans 7:2–4
“But now we are delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein we were held.”
Romans 7:6
And again:
“Knowing that a man is not justified[Greek: MADE RIGHTEOUS] by the works of the Law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ that we might be justified [Greek: MADE RIGHTEOUS] by the faith of Christ, and not by works of the Law: forby the works ofthe Law shall no flesh be justified [Greek: MADE RIGHTEOUS].”
Galatians 2:16
“Is the Law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a Law which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the Law.”
Galatians 3:21
“The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified [Greek: MADE RIGHTEOUS] by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster[that is, no longer under the Law].”
Galatians 3:24–25
“Tell me, you that desire to be under the Law, do you not hear the Law?”
Galatians 4:21
Paul continues in Galatians to cite an allegory to explain this negative aspect from the Book of Genesis, the first book of the Law. And, as if these references were not enough, Paul throws his last volley of negative comments with two verses about the Law. He states:
“Stand fast, therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage[the Law].”
Galatians 5:1
This negative was followed by another: “But if you be led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law”(Galatians 5:18). These negative comments by Paul confuse some students of the Bible. They look to be so contradictory to what he stringently said before.
On the surface one might imagine that the profound differences in emphasis by the apostle Paul in the above paragraphs (when compared to one another) are in utter contradiction to teachings by the same apostle. They seem so diametrically opposite in meaning from one another. How can he be so negative about the Law of God when formerly he was so positive by saying it was holy, righteous, and good? Paul also said the Law was the very instrument by which sin is determined. But then he turns around and states with dogmatism — Christians are no more under that Law!
We need to understand why Paul insisted on such negative judgments concerning the relevance of the Law of God for those who are Christians. The answer is simple and plain if one takes a common sense view of the whole issue that the apostle Paul presents. We will see that there is not the slightest contradiction in Paul’s teaching. Indeed, it is the most wonderful and logical instruction that could be presented to Israel and mankind. Let us see.
PRINCIPLE ONE: All Christians Have Died
Paul stated in the books of Romans and Galatians that if humans accept Christ in faith for the forgiveness of their sins, then God the Father reckons that they all died with Jesus Christ when He died on the tree of crucifixion. To Paul, Christ had become a substitute sacrifice for all Christians. Christ performed a special “dying” for other people when He died on their behalf. Paul said:
“For I through the Law am dead to the Law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I but Christ lives in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me [that is, Christ died in Paul’s place].”
Galatians 2:19–20
Paul looked on himself as one who already died. He believed all Christians also already died. The central doctrine he boldly presented was that the whole of the human race had already died; they were now all “dead to the Law” (Galatians 2:19).
In no way was Paul getting rid of the Law when he said that we were “dead to the Law.”He simply said that the circumstances by which God judged humans had now changed. Mankind had DIED! To Paul, the Law did not apply any longer in any factor regarding the Christian because the Christian was now reckoned to be dead “in Christ.” So, we Christians are like Paul’s illustration in the Book of Romans that if a husband dies, then the Law, that bound that husband and wife was no longer in force because the husband died. This meant that the wife was no longer married to the man.
“But if her husband be dead she is free from that Law. ... wherefore, my brethren, you are become dead to the Law bythe body of Christ [when Christ died and became a substitute for us]. ... but now we are delivered from the Lawthat being dead wherein we were held.”
Romans 7:3
Paul stated that we had been legally in a marriage state, by being attached to Israel; but now the husband of that marriage had died and we were being called, collectively, a “widow.” The Old Covenant was such a marriage relationship between Israel and God, but when the “husband” (Christ) died, that death ended the Old Covenant between Israel and God. The nation of Israel is now considered “a widow.”
So look at PRINCIPLE ONE. There is utter simplicity in Paul’s meaning. Whereas the first marriage of the woman of Paul’s illustration was holy, righteous, and good, and lasted until the death of the husband, so too the Law of God that the Father gave to ancient Israel was a very holy thing. It was righteous and good, and lasted until Christ died for mankind. Yet, and in spite of the Law being holy, righteous, and good, the Law had some powerful and unwelcome negative aspects associated with it.
Negative aspects? That’s right. Paul in the Book of Romans spent considerable time rehearsing what were the negative factors in the Law of God, and they were very upsetting indeed. In fact, to get rid of these negative features surrounding the Law, Paul said that all Christians died in Christ when Christ died on the tree of crucifixion. This was the central core of Paul’s teaching.
Now, the apostle Paul did not consider anything wrong with the first marriage of the widow in his illustration, for while that marriage was in force, Christ had not yet died for the sins of the world. But there were negative factors associated with the Old Covenant because all people (including Israelites) were held in bondage to the consequences of breaking that Law of God that the Old Covenant demanded be kept. Paul knew that not only Israelites, but all in the world were condemned and headed for severe judgments and chastisements for their sins that they committed under that Law of God.
These were the principal negatives attached to the constitutional framework of the Law of God. There was no way to be saved from those negatives as long as the Law held a person captive to its holy and august requirements. Mere animal sacrifices on the Day of Atonement, or any other sin offerings, were not sufficient to solve the problem of recurrent sins (breaking God’s Law) that humans consistently found within their normal lives while they were “under Law.” After each sacrifice for sin, all knew (as Paul pointed out) that people kept on sinning and death sentences continued over each person who found him or herself breaking the Law.
What Was the Law of God to Paul?
It is important in a theological sense to know just what Paul considered to be the Law of God about which he wrote. To show this, in Galatians 4:21–31 Paul gave the illustration of Sarah and Hagar, the wife and concubine of Abraham mentioned in the Book of Genesis. It is interesting that Paul even called his illustration a teaching of the Law. In Jewish and biblical terminology the first book of the Bible is called the initial book of the Law. So, when Paul thought of the Law of God, he included laws given to Adam, other laws given to Noah, those given to Abraham and also all those given to Moses and Israel at the time of the Exodus. All these laws were commands that were good and right, but Paul found them impossible to keep in a perfect sense.
There were many negatives to human welfare associated with the earlier Law of God. This is what Paul indicated when he said:
“And the commandment, which was ordained unto life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it [the commandment] slew me.”
Romans 7:10–11
Indeed, everyone who lived under the Law of God (before the death of Christ on the tree of crucifixion), was utterly condemned by that very Law ordained to give life to those who would keep it perfectly. The word “perfectly” easily condemned all humans.
This was the profound negative attached to the Law. And, alas, no one was ever able to keep God’s commandments from the time of Adam to that of Christ. Paul stated a cardinal truth when he taught that “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). And there were no degrees in lawbreaking in the eyes of God. It was not that some laws were more important to God than others, or that some were reckoned by Him to be severe and others as mild in interpretation. In no way was that true. In God’s view, even a minor transgressionof the Law meant that all the Law (in its entirety) had been broken (James 2:10).
Under the Law, man was in a hopeless state because he found himself consistently sinning, with perhaps a few brief periods of temporary relief. Unrelenting, the Law of God habitually reminded mankind of his degenerate and desperate state. The Law always revealed to man (in a negative sense) his sinning nature and that the Law issued a death warrant that continually loomed over man and awaited him (eventually) because of persistent sins. This disclosure to man of man’s unrighteousness by statements within the Law was a profound negative appraisal. It disturbed Paul (and other apostles) with remorse.
Keep PRINCIPLE ONE in mind. While the former “marriage” of the widow in Paul’s illustration was fine and holy and good, there was no way to get out from under the Law’s definition of sin and its negative consequences until the death of one of the parties to that former marriage relationship. So, when Jesus died on the tree of crucifixion, He took with Him all the sins of Israel and also all the sins of the world on His back (John 3:16–17). Christ died in place of all Israelites and all human beings as a substitute (on their behalf) so that all are now reckoned dead to that old relationship that humans had with God before Christ forgave humans of their sins. Paul sums up this teaching in an admirable way in 2 Corinthians 5:14–21. Note how Paul showed that all humans (not just Israelites) are reckoned to have died with Christ when He died on the tree of crucifixion.
“For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all then were all dead: and that he died for allthat they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. ...
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [a new creation, not an old man], old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and has given to us [to the apostles] the ministry of reconciliation; to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself[the whole of the world, not just Israelites alone], not imputing their[the world’s] trespasses unto them:and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation ...,
for He has made Himto be sin for us[He was a sin offering for all in the world], who knew no sin, that we might he made the righteousness of God in Him.”
2 Corinthians 5:14–15, 17–19, 21
So, PRINCIPLE ONE tells us that Christ died for all humans or earth (including all Israelites). This means that God the Father no longer imputes to the world the sins and trespasses they were subjected to before Christ died for all in the world. Now, those who are in Christ are new creations of God. They are to live in newness of life — as though they died and been resurrected from the dead. They are no longer subject to the Law of God that pertained to their former lives before their “deaths” in Christ. They died to that particular Law with its negative aspects found in its judgments and curses. Paul said that humans have in a sense been “widowed” to that former Law because Christ (the “husband”) died. They are now subject to another Law that Paul mentioned in Galatians 6:2. “Bear you one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the Law of Christ.”It is now the LAWof Christ that governs them.
Paul taught that the whole world “died” to the former Law of God in order to accept anotherlaw that is better, the Law of Christ. Paul just said: “But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law [the former Law of bondage]” (Galatians 5:18). When Christ died, they also became “dead in Christ” to that old Law. This does not mean that Christians are abandoning law. No, they are not giving up law. They have simply paid their debt to the old law and are now under a new Law of Christ in which they perform the fruit of the Spirit. The Law of Christ isrepresented by those nine fruits (virtues or principles) of the Spirit which are so interlaced with one another in importance that they coalesce into being a single “fruit.” Paul said:
“But the fruitof the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no Law.”
Galatians 5:22–23
Nor does any law or commandment define each of them. To discover what each of them means, you have to become “one” with the Father and with Christ Jesus who made them for us to walk in.
These nine principles of the Spirit are not “against” (or they do not “contradict”) any law no matter what it is. These nine principles are the very embodiment of all laws that come from the hand of God. Indeed, no proper laws can exist without the adoption of these nine spiritual virtues or principles. And notice this important point, each of those principles is NOT defined with written legislation like the written Ten Commandments or the other written codes of Moses. Not one of those principles is thoroughly defined in dictionary format or in a written legal code-form within the Holy Scriptures (though scores of examples illustrating them are given). These are the UNWRITTEN virtues or principles that represent the Law of Christ. That Law is “written” on the heart, not on tables of stone, or even written as laws that thoroughly explain each principle written in a book (even in the Scriptures).
Fruits of the Spirit Supersede the Law of Moses
The nine fruits of the Spirit in action in a person’s life supersede the necessity of having written laws (any written laws), no matter what they are or were. No law ever made (even the holiest) is against these nine principles of life that should be manifested within each Christian. As I have said, these nine fruits now represent “the Law of Christ” (Galatians 6:21). All should keep that Law of Christ. Paul said that even living in the fashion of the Gentiles, who walked without the Law of God mentioned in the Scriptures, those Gentiles could still be said to be “under [or, within] the Law to Christ” (1 Corinthians 9:21) when they observe the nine fruits of the Spirit. Paul fully believed that he and the Gentiles were living “within the Law to Christ” even when Paul himself was walking after the manner of the Gentiles and not acting like a Jew under the Old Covenant.
“To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are without law [that is, to those outside the pale of Judaism, and those who are non-Israelites], as [living] without law, [but] being not without law to God, but [living within or] under the law to Christ.”
1 Corinthians 9:20–21
This “Law of Christ” is one motivated in the heart, and not in written words on external tables of stone where Moses had placed the constitution of Israel.
“You [Gentile Corinthians] are our epistle [like an outward letter] written in our hearts, known and read of all men. Forasmuch as you are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ [but like an open letter from Christ himself] ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God not in tables of stone butin fleshly tables of the heart. ...
Who also has made us able ministers of the new testament [the New Covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.”
2 Corinthians 3:2–3, 6
What does Paul mean when he said that the written Law engraved in alphabetic letters on two tables of stone was a Law that “kills”? This is simple because this fact was its chief negative aspect. Recall that Paul told the Roman Gentiles that the
“commandment which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
Romans 7:10–11
That’s right. The commandments of God (no matter how good and holy they were) revealed to Paul that he was a sinner and one without a Savior before the death of Christ for all mankind. This was a profound negative aspect associated with the Law of God. Indeed, the Law actually “kills” a person even though it was ordained by God to give life.
To overcome this negative feature of the Law, Paul went on in 2 Corinthians 3:7 with the following deduction.
“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: how shall not the ministry of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation [the Law which killed people] be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory ...
For if that which is done away was glorious ... the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end of that [glory] which is abolished. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same vail [that covered the glory] untaken away in the reading of the old testament [the Old Covenant]; which vail was done away [being done away] in Christ.”
2 Corinthians 3:7–9, 11, 13–14
Thus, the “ministration of death and condemnation” which was the Old Covenant and its glory (with many negative aspects), has been replaced by a more glorious relationship with God through Christ. The negative features of the Law were abolished and were replaced with highly positive attributes and promises. Matters of the heart (based on faith) governed the New Covenant, not laws on two stone tablets. The exercise of faith in Christ (or, the faith of Christ), which was the reliance on the efficacy of Christ’s death, resurrection, and salvation power, brought in a New Covenant relationship to Israel. This was the establishing of a new Law. Paul said that showing a faith in Christ meant “we establish the Law.”Paul said that Christians actually establish a law based on faith (not a Law that is carved on stones and one that remains external to the human heart). The law that Christians now establish is a “Law of Faith”(Romans 3:31).
Paul said virtually the same thing in the Book of Hebrews. The old Law had become no longer applicable to Christians.
“Now has he [Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
For finding fault with them [the weaknesses of the Israelites who could not keep any part of the Law properly and the Law became death to them], he says,
‘Behold, the days come,’ says the Lord, ‘when I willmake a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenantthat I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not,’ says the Lord. ‘For this is the covenant that I willmake with the house of Israel after those days,’ says the Lord; ‘I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I willbe to them a God, and they shall be to me a people. ...
In that he says, a new covenant, he [God] has made the first old. Now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away.’”
Hebrews 8:6–10, 13 (quoting Jeremiah 31:31–34)
Paul said that the Old Covenant had not yet vanished away for most of the Israelites because they were still under its banner and they were not yet accepting Christ and His death on the tree of crucifixion for the forgiveness of their sins. But it was ready to vanish away. This means that the Old Covenant will remain in force for all people who do not wish to accept the terms of the unwritten “Law of the heart” (the “Law of Faith”), the “Law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2).
Only when people, including the Israelites and Jews, accept the death of Christ and His forgiveness of their sins (which banishes the negative consequences of the Law of God embedded within the Old Covenant legislation) will they be granted a new relationship with God through what God calls the New Covenant.
[Later I will show how Paul reckoned it was necessary for the Gentiles to join Israel to take part in the New Covenant promises, because the New Covenant was made only with the nations of Israel and Judah.]
The New Covenant for all Israel will only be made with them when Christ returns. But for a few “spiritual Israelites” it can be ordained now if they express faith in Christ and agree to partake of the Lord’s Supper (which was designed as a precursor ritual symbolizing the enactment of a “pre-New Covenant” relationship that God now has with those of spiritual Israel). Christians, however, through Christ, can now enter the New Covenant relationship that Israel will obtain when Christ returns. Even now for “spiritual Israelites,” Christ Jesus is the mediator of a New Covenant. As Paul said,
“How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [eonian, age-lasting] Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he [Christ] isthe mediator of the new testament [the New Covenant], that by means of death, for the redemption for the transgressions that were under the first testament, they that are called might receive the promise of eternal [age-lasting] inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator lives.”
Hebrews 9:14–17
So, when Christ died on the tree of crucifixion for all of us, Paul reckoned that all of us died with Him.
“For the love of Christ constrains us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead.”
2 Corinthians 5:14
In simple terms, the Old Covenant relationship which was found in the Law of God, that had as its constitution the written commandments on the two Tables of Stone, is no longer applicable in having a proper and holy relationship with God the Father. This is because Christians have “died” to that Law and its requirements when they embraced Christ. They are NOT under any of that Law any longer. They are now widowed to their former marriage relationship. That particular Law (that God gave to Moses) is thoroughly abolished for the Christian.
Still, the Old Covenant Remains
But let us not think that the Old Covenant has yet been done away for all people. Why, the Jewish people still want to be under it, as do Christian people in denominations that demand that the works and rules of the Old Covenant are still adhered to. So Paul did not unilaterally dismiss the earlier “Law.” He did show how mature Christians are no longer under that earlier Law (no matter how good it was) because all Christians have now died in Christ to that Law and its negative consequences. They are now “widowed” to it. This means that spiritual Israelites are no longer “married” as stated by that Law. Paul was showing how God was substituting another unwritten “Law” (the Law of Christ) for the earlier one because the old one had no means of salvation associated with it (which represents a very negative demerit). But Christ now provides a positive alternative that bequeaths to mankind an unvarnished salvation and hope.
This brings us to PRINCIPLE TWO. Paul used another illustration besides a husband dying and the wife now being free because that Law of marriage ended with the husband’s death (or our “dying” to the Law with our own “deaths” that occurred when Christ “died” for us). Paul continued in Galatians to explain why Christians are no longer under the earlier Law of God that existed before the crucifixion of Christ. This other illustration is that we Christians are now grown up spiritually and we are no longer children in the faith. Paul reckoned that all people in the generations before the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ were reckoned by God to be children and under the Law that was then in force.
“Before faith came we were kept under the Law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the Law was our schoolmaster[as an adult educator who educates a child] to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified [Greek: made righteous] by faith. But after that faith is come we are no longer under a schoolmaster[the earlier Law of God]. ...
Now I say, that the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; but isunder tutors and governors until such time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: but when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the Law[also that Christ could die for us] to redeem them that were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons [that is, to be full grown and mature sons].”
The MOUNT SINAI musical idolatry must be considered?
February 12 2006, 12:12 PM
Why did you STOP and NOT quote THE meaning of the Covenant of Grace given by the promise of the Spirit of Christ in order to be a true ISRAELITE and NOT a Jews under the Law of Moses as a curse?
Gal 3:26 FOR ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 FOR as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Abraham lived under a COVENANT OF GRACE: he was justified by faith because he obeyed God's laws and commands.
God brought Israel out of Egypt and gave them a restatement of that called The Book of the Covenant.
The people repudiated Grace by rising up to PLAY in musical worship of the trinity. The Law of Moses to legislate for the lawless was BECAUSE OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY.
God saw this as their PRAYER to return to paganism. Therefore, Stephen and many others say that God TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOSTS.
The Book of the Covenant was revoked, the tablets broken and restated to fit the Jew's new PAGANISM.
The SABBATH never meant A DAY OF WORSHIP: both some FIRST DAYS and later all "one out of seven" days was to hold a Holy Convocation. That meant to REST and READ or REHEARSE the Word which any APT elder could do from memory.
This was to QUARANTINE the Isralites FROM the SABBATH day "worship" which was BABYLONIAN as was the TITHE. The Babylonian worship was--like modern churchianity--where the people SERVED the gods by serving the AGENTS of the "gods" with food, drink, singing, dancing and sexual and homosexual pleasures.
The SABBATH meant REST just as Jesus died to give us REST from the burdens laded on by the self-serving clergy. REST in the literature means: "Stop the singing, stop the instruments, stop the rhetoric and just REST." SABBATH outlaws "sending out ministers" and "speaking your own words."
Ezek 20:6 In the day that I lifted up mine hand unto them,
to bring them forth of the land of Egypt
into a land that I had espied for them, flowing with milk and honey,
which is the glory of all lands:
Ezek 20:7 Then said I unto them,
Cast ye away every man the abominations of his eyes,
and defile not yourselves with the idols of Egypt:
I am the Lord your God.
Shiqquwc (h8251) shik-koots'; or shiqquc shik-koots'; from 8262; disgusting, i. e. filthy; espec. idolatrous or (concr.) an idol: - abominable filth (idol, -ation), detestable (thing)
Ezek 20:8 But they rebelled against me,
and would not hearken unto me:
they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes,
neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said,
I will pour out my fury upon them,
to accomplish my anger against them
in the midst of the land of Egypt.
Ezek 20:9 But I wrought for my names sake,
that it should not be polluted before the heathen,
among whom they were, in whose sight
I made myself known unto them,
in bringing them forth out of the land of Egypt.
Ezek 20:10 Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt,
and brought them into the wilderness.
God gave the ten words and the oral version of The Book of The Covenant.
This directly connects the promise made to Abraham and Jesus as the SEED. We become HEIRS of the promise by being baptized into Christ.
Ezek 20:11 And I gave them my statutes,
and shewed them my judgments,
which if a man do, he shall even live in them.
Ezek 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths,
to be a sign between me and them,
that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them.
Ezek 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness:
they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments,
which if a man do, he shall even live in them;
and my sabbaths they greatly polluted:
then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them in the wilderness, to consume them.
Ezek 20:14 But I wrought for my names sake,
that it should not be polluted before the heathen, in whose sight I brought them out.
The righteous decision would be to leave Israel in the wilderness. Again, god had to protect His people to protect His Name:
Ezek 20:15 Yet also I lifted up my hand unto them in the wilderness,
that I would NOT bring them into the land which I had given them,
flowing with milk and honey, which is the glory of all lands;
Ezek 20:16 Because they despised my judgments,
and walked not in my statutes, but polluted my sabbaths:
for their heart went after their idols.
The word POLLUTED is the same word defining how Lucifer was CAST OUT of heaven and how Jesus CAST OUT the musical ministrels--like one ejects dung:
Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute) - defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.
"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).
"In the New Testament there is nowhere any emphasis laid on the MUSICAL form of the hymns; and in particular none on instrumental accompaniment whereas this is significantly paganism." (Delling, Gerhard, Worship in the New Testament, trans. Percy Scott Phil. Westminster press, 1962, p. 86).
Ezek 20:17 Nevertheless mine eye spared them from destroying them,
neither did I make an end of them in the wilderness.
Ezek 20:18 But I said unto their children in the wilderness,
Walk ye not in the statutes of your fathers,
either observe their judgments,
nor defile yourselves with their idols:
Ezek 20:19 I am the Lord your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
Ezek 20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they
shall be a SIGN between me and you [ISRAELITES], that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.
Ezek 20:21 Notwithstanding the children rebelled against me:
they walked not in my statutes, neither kept my judgments to do them,
which if a man do, he shall even live in them;
they polluted my sabbaths: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them,
to accomplish my anger against them in the wilderness.
Ezek 20:22 Nevertheless I withdrew mine hand,
and wrought for my names sake,
that it should not be polluted in the sight of the heathen,
in whose sight I brought them forth.
The idolatrous worship of Apis at Mount Sinai sentenced Israel to captivity and almost total destruction -- then and there -- because they would always be unfaithful to God. Therefore, He gave them a law which could not give life (as the Covenant could have) and helped them on their way to destruction when they "fired" Him and demanded a king like the nations so that they could worship like the nations:
Ezek 20:23 I lifted up mine hand unto them also in the wilderness,
that I would scatter them among the heathen,
and disperse them through the countries;
Ezek 20:24 Because they had not executed my judgments,
but had despised my statutes,
and had polluted my sabbaths,
and their eyes were after their fathers idols.
Ezek 20:25 Wherefore
I gave them also statutes that were not good,
and judgments whereby they should not live;
Ezek 20:26 And I polluted them in their own gifts,
in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb,
that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.
Ac.7:42 Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?
Stephen alludes to the writings of Amos which ILLUSTRATES the musical, idolatrous worship of the nation of Israel including the APIS bulls. When you REJECT God's Word He sends you strong delusions.
Again: the Sabbath was for REST. That QUARANTINED them from being able to travel to the CANAANITE or BABYLON "Sabbath Day Worship" rituals which--like most of Christianism--is for entertainment at a HIGH PRICE. The only WORSHIP word which they performed and used by Paul for the EKKLESIA or "school of the Bible" was to GIVE HEED to "that which is written" or "Scripture." That is the SAME restriction as the Holy Convocation.
At the time of Christ the THREAT was SUN worship in which all "musical worship" speaks of pleasuring, sexuality, homosexuality and TAKING AWAY MONEY. Therefore, as the FIRST day was the BEGINNING of creation and the EIGHTH DAY was the beginning again of activity, the Lord's Day was to QUARANTINE Christians FROM religious worship rituals. Jesus still DID NOT call it a DAY OF WORSHIP but a DAY OF REST. Clergy makes it certain that SUNDAY is the most ANXIETY CREATING, wearing day of the weak. It is OK to remember the Sabbath and keep it HOLY but it is NOT ok and was NEVER ok to make it a DAY OF WORSHIP where the CLERGY gets PAID for LADING BURDENS.
DON'T POLLUTE EITHER THE SEVENTH OR FIRST DAY BY PLEASURING YOURSELF, COLLECTING MONEY, PLAYING MUSIC (POLLUTES), SENDING OUT "MINSITERS" OR SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS.
Wow. I don't usually follow these kinds of online blogs. They lead exactly nowhere. They are an end unto themselves and have very little if any redeeming value or even collateral spirituality. This one is no different. I'm going to have my one say and then I won't post again. All of this smacks of prideful, vain self-promotion. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You are writing daily "books" of information that has no hope of saving a single lost soul or encouraging a single hurting heart. If you spent have the energy on the "weightier" matters, heaven would be singing joyfully over the lost souls that have been redeemed. You sound like a bunch of Pharisees trying to see who has the biggest and best refence Bible. Paul understood what was really important and told the church at Colasse as much as a preface to combatting heresy in that church:
I want you to know how much I am struggling for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. (Col. 2:1-4)
There are a lot of "fine sounding arguments" here that emphasise style over substance and form over function. Please, gentlemen, I pray that you can get over yourselves and get back to the real work of the church - Seeking and saving the lost; not an endless search for the truth. God has already cornered the market on that one.
This is not a BLOG which is reserved for disfunctional women and underemployed males. This is a Viper Defense Forum.
Good! pull the pigtail and run, hey? The seven SPIRITS which would rest on Messiah or the Branch were ALL forms of Divine knowledge. (see Isaiah 11:1f for the first time). These are prefigured by the LAMPS of the Menorah in the Holy Place. This is the type of the church of Christ which has the SOLE TASK of making the wisdom of God known to mankind and to supernatural beings. This is to prove that the WORD of God can defeat the rituals of Satan which appeal to the FLESH.
Col 2:1 FOR I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;
Col 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
Both Paul and Peter warn us to speak that which has been delivered to us because it was delivered by eye and ear witnesses and given the supernatural memory to write us a MEMORY. That left us a MARKER so that anyone who teaches otherwise is a FALSE TEACHER. You may remember that the SERPENT who wholly seduced Eve is identified as a Musical Enchanter.
Col 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should BEGUILE you with enticing words.
Now, if you stop TOO SOON everyone will know that you may be a SEDUCER and just don't want people to know the REST OF THE STORY?
Col 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
To be IN CHRIST one must be BAPTIZED INTO Christ. Now, one of the SEDUCTIONS we are fighting against is the denial of the need for baptism. You seem to suggest some mystical union with the SPIRIT Christ and not the SUFFERING SERVANT who will only be found OUTSIDE of the crows suffering reproaches.
To receive Christ is to receive THE FAITH and THE FAITH is taught and not caught.
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye HAVE BEEN TAUGHT , abounding THEREIN with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
The "trinity" is never seen as THREE PEOPLE with the "holy spirit person" left over to let people CHANGE to fit the CULTURE.
Psalms 33:6 By the word of the Lord were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
The WORD is the LOGOS or Hebrew DABAR.
The LORD is Jehovah and Jesus in prophecy is JEHOVAH- SAVES while the FATHER is Jehovah- Righted.
The BREATH is the word SPIRIT.
DANGER, Will Robinson, DANGER
That means that the OPERATIVE CONFESSION is that you must believe that CHRIST came fully in the FLESH. The CHRIST OF GOD is 100% God who has momentarily LAID ASIDE His full glory and majesty.
IF YOU DENY THAT THE "COMFORTER" IS NAMED JESUS CHRIST THEN YOU DENY THAT CHRIST CAME FULLY IN THE FLESH.
IF YOU BELIEVE THAT CHRIST AND HIS SPIRIT ARE TWO SEPARATE "PEOPLE" THEN YOU ARE DELUSIONAL AND THE ONLY HOPE IS THAT IN IGNORANCE YOU DO IT.
If you deny BAPTISM then you cannot have A holy spirit (not a twin) or A good conscience: that is you cannot be a Disciple meaning a Christian.
Paul is speaking to BELIEVERS which by definition means one who COMPLIES
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete IN him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Paul says that salvation by FAITH means being BAPTIZED INTO Christ or His Body. You cannot get INTO the body by just believing in the body.
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
A person who is dead in sins does not mean unconsious.
1Ti.5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
The SABBATH was to give REST and not do ceremonial legalism. I will stop here but you THESIS is proven wrong the more you read Paul's OUTLAWING even discussing personal diversities in Romans 14 and then went DIRECTLY into Romans 15 where he defined the SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible. The FIRST thing he outlaws is the PERSONAL PLEASING one another. This means to AROUSE people into an excited state of mind. The METHOD was alsays arousal singing--called enchantment or sorcery--and instruments. This was THE MEANING of heresy where someone with a VESTED interest LIFTS YOU UP with music to CARRY YOU AWAY for their own uses. The word KLEPTOMAI is closely related. In the Old Testament prophecies literally fulfilled they would AROUSE Jesus to REPROACH Him which was to expose his nakedness. Now, surely you don't believe that is a LIBERTY or "bull's eye thing?"
Sorry, fella, but you will NEVER find the LUSTED WORD Psallo which does NOT point to older males plucking a harp in order to get the "hair pluched" boy minister ready for the MOST IMPORTANT act of "worship."
I suppose that if we BUY INTO the "Just Jesus heresy" that will leave the hucksters free to fill in the blanks. I assuredly feel the pain when the "back pews" who have ALWAYS been silenced by professionals get their TONGUE and a pulpit. However, you need to become a teacher "of that which has been taught" and a "singer" of "that which is written" meaning "scripture" as the only way to edify or educate, glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.
The cat is out of the bag and there is NO TURNING BACK: Jesus has been unchained and for the first time in history honest teachers can do an end run around truth squelchers and GO into the whole world and preach the gospel which has ALWAYS been an offense.
You may have disappeared but hundreds of others will know that you thought that you could throw a little sand into the gears and the MAD MACHINE would grind to a halt.
Computer Geek,
Since I am a Christian saved by "Grace," the law of Moses
and the Decalogue that you cling to, I find were nailed to the cross in Colossians 2:14. Now, before you
commence your argument please turn to 11 Corinthians 3, where Paul speaks of the "law" (Torah, or Old Testament), as the "letter of death," and the "spirit" (New Testament), as the "letter of life."
Paul would say in vs. 7: "But if the ministration of death (the law), written and engraved in stones ("stones," that friend, is the 10 Commandments, Please read Ex. 34:1, 28-30; De. 10:1; Ro. 7:10), so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory WAS TO BE DONE AWAY."
By the way, the word "glory" translates from the Greek into the English as "character."
Now, either Jesus "blotted out the ordinances that was against us, and took it OUT OF THE WAY, NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS," or, He did not! I know, there are are those today who believe by "Keeping the Sabbath," or "Fest Days," or the "Dietary Law" stands them in good stead with God.
I ask how can this be, since Paul wrote that the "law was death and nailed to His cross.?".. To try and keep the law, means that you have not excepted the death of Jesus as a "substitute, sacrifice" for your sins.
If not Jesus, just what do you have to sacrifice to God for your sins? The Hebrew writer would say: "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.".....Again, just what do you have to offer God in the way of a sacrifice?....The Law?... Think about it!
Like so many, you are not aware of Paul's teaching on "Justification through the Atoning Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ."
By the time you wade through the "thou shall not's" of the "Anties" on this forum, you may find it easier to keep the Law's of Moses.... all 113.....
Jack Mann
I was just re-reading the initial message at the top—what a painful reminder!!!!! How far certain congregations have gone and arrived at this venture at the expense of the saints’ collection? Can someone honestly search the Scripture and identify the true purpose for letting one “lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come”?
What about I Corinthians 16:
[1] Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
[2] Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
[3] And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
Indeed, one of the signs of the Church Growth Movement is the presence of a “Worship Leader.”
It is no secret that at Madison, the “Worship Leader” is:
”… responsible for planning all areas of the worship service and then presenting these plans to the worship committee. This includes the Lord’s Supper, giving, prayers, and the reading of the Lord’s Word as well as the song service.”
Note from the preceding list that all aspects of the “worship service” are included, with the exception of the sermon delivery. Yeah, right, it justifies the full-time employment of a “worship leader”—a very significant “staff” member in the assembly of the saints. Really!?! This sounds more like some kind of a spiritual disease. Don’t I hear “staff infection”?
This past Sunday, Madison’s “Worship Leader” returned after a two-week absence. Someone or something must have prompted him to defend his “spiritual” task that “musical worship”— the way of “leading the congregants into God’s holy presence” —is not entertainment at all. But, you see, “entertainment” is a broad term. But, then, according to the church growth guru, Rick Warren, contemporary-charismatic music [especially with instruments and the band] is the methodology for attracting or demanding the attention of the “un-churched.” Well, call it “holy entertainment” or “redemptive entertainment” or “eternal entertainment” or whatever.
The “Worship Leader” also reminded the congregation that the non-Church-of-Christ professors at Abilene Christian University are impressed with the non-instrumental “congregational” singing in churches of Christ. [Wow! Was that really new news? I thought our congregations were known for “congregational” singing all along. He also compared Madison [his worship-leading congregation … Atta-Boy!] with other congregations who have somewhat departed from the 4-part harmony --- like, hmmm, whose fault is that?
Well, whose fault is that? Let me just very briefly state what has really happened since the advent of the “worship leader” thingy and the “Praise Team” thingy and contemporary-charismatic 7-11 praise music that has rendered the hymns almost extinct, along with the big screen that displays words ONLY, etc.?
This web site is not part of or approved by any Church!
...........................THE BOOK
What Happened At the Madison Church of Christ?
There are thousands of churches being taken over across America.
This book is only about one of those churches. It's about the Madison
Church Of Christ. By studying the methods used here along with the resource
references you might be able to inoculate your church. At the very least
you will recognize the signs early on.
Many of the current members of the Madison Church of Christ still don't
know what happened.
Some never will know! This book is for them as well.
Madison Church of Christ was a 60 year old church. At one time it was
one of the largest churches in the US, and the largest Church of Christ.
It thrived for many years on the vision of it's elders and those of
it's ministers. Those visions undoubtably came from the the inspired word
of Jesus Christ.
At sometime in the last 10 years there was a deliberate plan by a majority
of the elders to take the Madison Church of Christ into a more worldly
realm.
They used secrecy, covert planning, and outside sources to scheme and
to change the format and direction of the Madison Church of Christ.
The Elders knew that the membership would never approve such a plan.
Using the tools of the "Community Church Movement"(consultants, books,
seminars, meetings,planters,seeders) they slowly started initiating change
so it was never noticed by the members until it was too late.....
At the heart of the plan was the fact that old members were going to
be driven off so new techniques could be used to go out and reach the unchurched
through new "Contemporary Holy Entertainment" methods developed by the
"Community Church Movement"
Old members had to be kept on board long enough to get their plans ready,
or the funds would not be there to pay for the new building. So by the
plans very nature, it had to be secret.
The church had no plan in effect to renew or approve elders. There was
never any need. The elders had always been "as approved by God". 10 of the last
15 elders would begin to shed some doubt on that.
The Elders did not even need a majority at first, because some of the
elders went along unwittingly.
This edition starts shortly after some of the members begin to smell
something strange in January 2001. Later editions may go back and fill
in some of the timeline.
To even start to understand whats happening here, you must read the
background materials in the first of the book.
This is only the first edition, and not the end. New editions will be
printed as needed. To keep abreast of current changes, please visit our
web site; http://www.concernedmembers.com/madison
Here is the list of players;
5 Godly Elders
10 Not so Godly Elders
120 "Deacons" (allegiance unknown)
2,800 - 4,000 church "members"
2 "teners" (people who have publicly confessed to have broken all ten
commandments)
Unknown number of "sinners" (This is what the 10 elders call us.)
Unknown number of "demons" (Flying everywhere, to many to count)
