Whats happening at Madison?

Well, to start off Madison had over 100 baptisms in the year 2002 and way more reponses.(Oh and we baptize like all churches of christ do. We baptize them in the name of the father, son and the holy spirit!)
We have praise teams.They are used to help people learn their parts in new songs.We also clap.I clap in some songs because I'm happy and glad Jesus Christ died so that I may go to heaven!!

Randy:

It is interesting that you brought up a topic that’s worded similarly to our TIMELINE thread. Besides, you brought up an idea similar to Bob’s topic titled, “Clapping is perfectly fine.” But ConcernedMembers tries to be “fair and balanced” by allowing both sides freedom of expression.

Speaking of baptisms, this is really not the issue (not so much as yet) until the youth ministers of the Contemporary Church Growth Movement de-emphasizes the condition of being immersed in water in order for past sins to be remitted, in favor of the Baptist doctrine of redemption prior to immersion. The number of baptisms also becomes an issue when someone makes a big deal about these numbers being the result of the contemporary church growth methodology. The true test of the growth SCHEME is the conversion of unbelievers who have not had prior Christian family upbringing. Do you understand? Most, if not all, of the responses at Madison in 2002 were not unusual: either they were children reared in Christian homes or they were folks coming from other congregations.

There’s no need for me to duplicate a number of articles already posted. In regard to issues regarding Keith’s musical performers (praise teams), instrumental simulation or stimulation (programmed hand clapping), or the WORSHIP LEADER replacing our High Priest or mediator, please refer to other threads, e.g., “What Happened This Week at Madison” or “Worship for Sale (90% of All Church Conflicts on Musical Issues),” etc. [Randy, the tone of your post seems “youthful” and I don’t want to embarrass you by asking about your age.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

Donnie, Ken and the rest of the peanut gallery,
I am gonna put this bluntly...not trying to sound offensive but speaking the truth in love...
1) Why do you always spill back with the same defense everytime? (O its the charismatic contemporary movement...willow creek...etc and all those other methodologies?
2) Why don't you accept the fact that many people have different preferences when it comes to worship? Some prefer a more contemporary service, some don't? Some prefer to criticize others about their preference, some don't? I wish the world we live in would realize that we all have differing opinions and we are never gonna see the same picture or agree with everyone on issues...take the war for example...its a perfect example....some people are for it some are against it...some people like George Bush...some can't stand the man....It is the same way with worship...It is just one's opinion and that really leaves me in a bind to think that churches are splitting over more than just worship issues but more importantly that brothers and sisters in Christ can't even get along when it comes to talking about these issues.

Until you come up with a better defense for who you are
I am, John Paul George, Jr

Mr. George:

Why art thou troubled with my same defense? You should know why! If not, let me tell you … it’s because the OFFENSIVE offense by the Charismatic Contemporary Movement, Willow Creek, etc., has been the same and persistent also. Open your eyes and be a little more observant. The Madison body is on the verge of becoming a full-blown Community Church, whether or not you are willing to accept that reality! Time will come –- let me warn you –- when the Madison congregation won’t be recognized as “Madison Church of Christ” anymore, even it keeps that same name. And it’s time you and others who are in a state of denial face this reality. Just because elders and other leaders embrace the Saddleback culture-driven methodology (which is really a deceptive SCHEME!) for church growth does not mean that we are not obligated to defend the truth and contend for the faith!!! Change is not something one should be opposed to, but when objectives are accomplished by resorting to unscriptural doctrines and practices just because others are doing the same, then, it is not something that God desires for His people.

Mr. George, acknowledging different preferences and differing opinions among individuals and groups, needless to say, is COMMON knowledge. Don’t even begin to think that I do not know that. But the Bible speaks so much about peace, unity and harmony in the body of Christ, i.e., believers being of the same mind and of the same judgment. ConcernedMembers has not introduced anything new –- doctrine or practice -– to the historical church of Christ that it hasn’t already believed in. To the contrary, it has been the contemporary and post-modern movements that have introduced changes in both doctrines and practices into the church, thus, creating chaos and division in certain congregations.

Which cause are you trying to defend anyway?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz

Donnie,
I have been a member at Madison for the lats 10 yrs and have observed this site for a month or so and read several of the posts and see the tone of aggressiveness and anger in the hearts of people like you and Ken and don't see the fact that you can call yourself a child of God...but I'm not the judge and God is...you have to answer to him...its not about me.
*****************************************************
On another note regarding your post...It's not that I am troubled with your defense---its just old after awhile. It doesn't matter if I know or not but I will mention that the main mission of this site isn't to make others aware of the so called CCM movement or however you want to word it. More like it is about tearing down a person because they choose to worship God in a way where they have a sense of freedome to express themselves freely. The Madison Church of Christ is not on the verge of becoming a full blown community church. If you aren't happy with whats going on there I don't see why you choose to worship there. I am not trying to sound judgmental towards you but I am saying that how can you say you worship a God and call yourself a Christian when all you and Ken Sublett are doing is tearing down people and coming across in an arrogant fashion with a negative tone and not the attitude of Christian love.
*****************************************************
Yes the elders and ministers made a change and I do agree that it wasn't made at the right time and wasn't handled in the best approach.
******************************************************
The elders are just like you and me---SINNERS!!!
******************************************************
No one is perfect and we are not the AUDIENCE!!! We SERVE and AUDIENCE of ONE and that is the almighty soverign God!!!
******************************************************
One more thing while I am in my rocking chair...if you can't seem to see the picture of anything good at Madison talk with the elders and quit hiding in your little shell in the balcony and not be afraid to speak up to others about your thoughts rather than just hiding behind a computer.

Til He Comes I Am,
John Paul George, Jr

Mr. George:

I am wondering how much you knew about Madison’s situation prior to the last 10 years that you’ve been a member. You really need to wake up and face reality. As President Reagan said in a debate, “Here you go again,” the same can be said about you. You use the same baseless arguments that anti-church of Christ supporters have said over and over on this site. It’s a shame that you would classify Christians as “sinners,” including elders and you and me. While it’s true that we STILL sin as humans, our status is no longer that of “sinners” (let me make this clear to mean as “unbelievers who are yet to know Christ”). We have been redeemed by the blood of Christ; therefore, are Christians. Does that mean we no longer sin? NO!!!

In regard to worship, it is not a matter of preference. Worship is a matter of doing so in the most reverential manner, in spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) It is not governed by our human emotions and by being spirit-filled in the modern-day “charismatic” sense. The holy Spirit of God is truth and worshipping the Father in spirit and in truth simply means having the understanding and knowledge of the truth. The idea of God being the audience of one is a misnomer. Worship is to be DIRECTED and addressed to the Father in heaven. An audience necessitates a performance, and worship is not a performance. If it is, this is exactly what Keith’s musical singers (Keith’s choir or Praise Team: God does not have and need a MUSICAL GROUP to perform to Him) are doing –- PERFORMING!!!

If you think ConcernedMembers is “aggressively” contending for the truth and for the faith, then, that’s good. We are here to stand up for Jesus, not for the recent movements that are infiltrating and subverting the church. The infiltration and subversion, taking place in congregations like Madison, do not seem to bother you and others. That’s too bad! I’d tear down the activities of change proponents, however and whatever it takes, rather than tear down the body of Christ, which is what these movements are doing. The body of Christ is too precious to let it be conquered and transitioned to what it’s not. The good things at Madison are NOT the issues. But when this body is bombarded with certain unscriptural doctrines and practices, especially under the leadership that supports them and knows better, then, these are the issues that we must deal with.

You still need to answer my question to you about loyalty. Is your loyalty to the church and Christ its founder --- OR --- is your loyalty to the post-modern movements and their founders? You can’t have it both ways, brother! Please do not be blinded by the subtle and gradual scheme of the change agents. I still contend Madison is on the verge of becoming a Community Church, if it isn’t already. Just a reminder: the Community Church in the same neighborhood as the Hendersonville Church of Christ has been a byproduct of the same SCHEME of transforming churches of Christ into Community Church-ism. The only difference is that the “Community” group in Hendersonville had to go its separate way.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz

There is no reasoning here with you bunch of knuckleheads. Every pitch I throw your way you swing and miss each one by a mile. To an extent Donnie I do agree with several of your points in the last reply. We are not the audience. What I mean is...the praise team....the worship leader....the preacher....the congregation as a WHOLE.....aren't what its all about. God is the audience and His son reinforces that through the sacrifice He paid for our behalf. As sinners Jesus cleans our slate every day and gives us a fresh start...the catch is we do have to believe in Him and confess him as Lord by being baptized into Christ. My loyalty isn't to a set of standards in the church. MY loyalty is to Christ alone. Because "IN CHRIST ALONE" I place all my trust. And find my glory in the power of the CROSS!! That is what it's all about. Fulling seeking God with all our hearts, soul, mind and strength. THE GREAT COMMANDMENT!!! I enjoy the music we sing at Madison....however there are some songs I don't like....and there are some of the arrangements I don't like, but that is a preference.
P.S. What do you mean by "Pope John Paul"? If it is directed at me I don't appreciate it one bit and would like an apology. Picking fun at a person's name is not the Christian thing to do!!!

In Him,
John Paul George, Jr

"Just Jesus" goes beyond the Shelly Core Gospel.

The USUAL false preaching is that Paul said:

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to PREACH any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Here is the way it was in the OLD PRE-SIFTED BIBLE I still have:

1 Cor 2:2 For I determined not to KNOW any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Stick a pin in the epistles and SEE that Paul preached about LOTS of things.

Here is the embryo COMMUNITY CHURCH VIEW:

"This is to say that the gospel is not the whole of the New Testament scriptures, for the gospel was a reality long before the scriptures were written.

"Strictly speaking,the TEACHINGS of the apostles are NOT FACTS, as the gospel is,

---"but (differing) interpretations, implications, and edification based on the gospel Leroy Garrett.

WHAT DID PAUL MEAN?

1 Cor 2:3 And I was with you in WEAKNESS, and in fear, and in much trembling.

TO KNOW CHRIST is to be in weakness, fear, trembling and ready to suffer. IF Paul had just cried JUST JESUS they would not have MURDERED him. Paul preached what Jesus taught him to preach and that included the whole CHRISTIAN SYSTEM OF "THE" FAITH. Your CLERGY is knowing JUST ME and my silly spirit- outing garbage.

PAUL COULDN'T PERFORM AT MADISON:

1 Cor 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of mans wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

The SPIRIT works with power ONLY when you preach the Word of Christ "as it has been taught."

1 Cor 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

PAUL WAS EVANGELIZING AND NOT DOING SUNDAY PREACHING. HOWEVER, BELIEVERS ARE CALLED "THE PERFECTED."

1 Cor 2:6 Howbeit we speak WISDOM (one of the SEVEN SPIRITS TO REST ON CHRIST) among THEM that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

HERE IS WHAT YOU ARE MISSING IN A SECULAR CHURCH:

1 Cor 2:7 But we speak the WISDOM of God in a MYSTERY, even the HIDDEN wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: [AND HID FROM THE CARELESS]

Remember, we said that God gives the gift of A holy spirit which is a clear conscience or clear consiousness to be able to COMPREHEND the mysteries which Paul is not going to share with those who KNOW ONLY SELF AND US CELEBRATED.

THESE MYSTERIES ARE RIGHT THERE IN THE BIBLE AND A LITTLE PERSON AS THE "HOLY SPIRIT" IS NOT GOING TO JUMP INTO YOUR BRAIN AND LET YOU BLASPHEME THE WORD AND STILL GRASP IT.

1 Cor 2:1 For what man KNOWETH the things of a man, save the SPIRIT OF man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the SPIRIT OF God.

The Spirit of God is to God what OUR spirit is to us. Our spirit does not make us TRIPLETS.

THE HOLY GHOST SPEAKS THROUGH THE WORDS OF CHRIST which are SPIRIT and LIFE (John 6:63).

1 Cor 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Paul's punch line was:

1 Cor 2:16 For who hath known the MIND of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the MIND of CHRIST.

The SPIRIT OF GOD is not separated FROM God. The Mind or Spirit of God IS Holy (Wholly and pure) Spirit. To the human mind or spirit HE is the MIND OF CHRIST. The only way you get the MIND OF CHRIST is to HONOR Christ by carefully and prayerfully LISTENING to Him speak through HIS word. That SPIRITUAL PROCESS cannot tolerate infantile singers or clappers or dancers.

NEITHER JESUS NOR PAUL SPEAKS TO MOST CHURCHES BECAUSE PAUL SAYS IN CHAPTER THREE: "YOU ARE STILL CARNAL."

JUST JESUS is just nonsense. But it is PREGNANT enough to say with ALL of the "musical" passages: I don't want to hear from God.

Tell your LEADER that KNOWING Christ means to be an abject slave to the flock JUST LIKE JESUS: ready to die.

Tell your FEEDERS that Paul DID NOT Preach JUST JESUS but the whole counsel of God. Indeed, you CANNOT understand Paul without understanding the prophets.

And you cannot understand ANYTHING spiritual with a brain scrambled by music.

Ken Sublett

For Your Information Ken,
I have not been brainwashed by any music or anybody. And it isn't anything to do with any COntemporary Charismatic Movement either if that is what you are gonna call it. That's what I like to refer to as bologna. Being from Hohenwald you should be all too familiar with what bologna is. Anyways that is beyond the point. I am not gonna continue to but heads and waste my time with you sir although I do find truth in some of your statements, I just don't see it as an essential thing to fill my mind with such stuff as this as it doesn't build up the body of Christ in any way. God bless you as you "strive" to serve God. I'm not the judge but from what I see on this site. Neither you or Donnie can seem to see that picture.
P.S. One more question Ken...Where do you attend church if I may ask? You know that I attend Madison, I think that it would be essential to know where you attend just out of curiousity.
For His Glory,
John Paul George, Jr

The French (I escaped them in my ancestors in the late 1600s) would say that GEORGE BUSH is the Aggresive Tyrant.

Why? Because he intends to clean out the Tyrants in Bagdad. Saddam is no more AGGRESSIVE in a physical sense than some are in a SPIRITUAL sense. I dare one of the defenders of the FORT WITHOUT WALLS to write condemning anything. They would be CAST OUT of the Saddle Back center circle and "sat on the back pew."

Who is the tyrant? The GUILT CLAUSE says that if you use PHYSICAL AGGRESSION and poke me in the eye, then I am the GUILTY PARTY for telling you "that isn't nice."

You guys INFILTRATE AND DIVERT to steal church houses of widows to convert them into THEATERS FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. Now, in the REAL WORLD, we call that HOSTILE, ANGER, AGGRESSION, MOLESTATION, AGGRESSION.

Some of us taking the pattern of Jesus and Paul teach you the TRUTH of the Word and HISTORY which prophesies about you guys and YOU take that as aggression.

The Shelly PATTERNISM is something like this: "Those being questioned (invaded) turn violent and wage war on the INVADERS." He boasts that NARRATIVE THEOLOGY gives him the right to make up his OWN STORY. You are a disciple of Shelly and the "educator's" Post Modern ideas that TRUTH COLLAPSED about y2K and the "olden" Bible no longer works.

You are invited to POST a rebuttal of anything I have said and prove that speaking the truth is AGGRESIVE. When people INVADE and STEAL the property and lie about the Word of God I believe that "speaking the truth in love" no longer applies. What applies is just this:

----"Matthew 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would NOT have PERMITTED (left alone) his house to be broken up (burgaled).

Now, Junior, I think that when people are BURGALING the church houses of widows one does not meek and mildly sing them an erotic praise song.

OF THOSE "NAVIGATING THE WINDS OF CHANGE" AND USING CRAFTINESS OR ART (MUSIC) TO DECEIVE (PRAISE SONGS):

--Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every WIND of doctrine, by the SLEIGHT of men, and CUNNING CRAFTINESS whereby they LIE in wait to DECEIVE;

THOSE TO WHO WE MUST SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE:

--4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

WE "SPEAK THE TRUTH IN LOVE" TO THOSE WHO KNOW CHRIST AS their HEAD. We DO NOT speak the truth in love to those creatures who try to DIVERTY your ship to THEIR port. We train our Spiritual canons on them and blow them out of the water because THEY HAVE NO AMMUNITION.

Did I tell you that APOLLO (The Abaddon or Apollyon of Revelation) TRANSFORMED himself into a harmless DOLPHIN (angel of light) and jumped on board the ship of MINISTERS of another "god." He changed the WINDS to lead them to his ORACLE AT DELPHI. Using flute music and telling them they could HARVEST ALL THE LAMBS THEY COULD EAT, Apollo made them MUSICAL MINISTERS of his SEEKER-CENTER.

There is no PROTECTED HARBORS for those who proclaim with all of their MEGA-TEMPLE AND "PYRAMIDAL" MINISTER SYSTEM, music, tighing, dominant leaders MIGHT that "you gotta get over it."

There simply is no LOVEY DOVEY haven for those who prove to be the enemies of Christ by "offending" others and DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD.

So, just quit whining and READ part of the DIALOG and prove to ME that there is an APPROVED EXAMPLE of musical teams (performers) in a "one another" body of Christ. Or, prove by example that MUSIC is not the universal MARK of those who tell God: "We will not listen to your Word."

You are not going to shame those who are commissioned to TEACH, by claiming that HARD DIALOG is AGGRESSION.

Ken Sublett

I'm not the one being aggressive Ken and I am not saying you are either. I just find it hard to fathom how you can come across with some sort of an attitude in your responses...That's just the picture I get when I read them. No offense taken. I know you have been around for some time and have been well grounded in the Bible but some of your rebuttals I begin to question. How can you say that music is errotic? There is nothing errotic about singing praises to our Lord. Whether it is hymns like I'll Fly Away, Night With Ebon Pinion, or Amazing Grace. Or whether it is singing the newer praise songs that have been written over the last 20 years. Songs like Don't Be Afraid (Joshua 1), You Are The One For Me (The gospel John where Jesus says you are the way the truth and the life--no one comes to the Father except through me.) and On Bended Knee/Glorify Thy Name--songs that petition us before the Lord.

John Paul George, Jr

The same people who have taught you about PRAISE SONGS may have convinced you that rebuttal of false teaching is being aggressive. The thing they translate as MUSIC and even PREACHING was hard headed dialog. The aggression begins by accusing my FACTUAL teaching with proving that I am a pervert.

The ENCOMIAST or PRAISE LEADER even at the Tower of Babylon was a co-MINISTER with the Soothsayers, musicians and prostitutes. "Worship" was LITERAL in an attempt to bring FERTILITY. That is the meaning of modern-but-ancient MUSIC which intends to increase the HARVEST of tithe payers. Nimrod's TEAM intended to "regenerate people through external means."

The MUSICAL ENCHANTER (Nachash) was WHOLLY SEDUCED Eve.

The RISING UP TO PLAY with musical idolatry at Mount Sinai was within a sexual context. The same word is used of SAMSON who "GROUND" in the king's house and of DAVID who stripped with the slave girls.

Jesus speaks of MOUTH RELIGION by those who PIPED to get him into the perverted Dionysus song and dance. He reflects the prophecy of Isaiah and Ezekiel. Ezekiel then connects the singing and playing to a sexual intent for both GOD and Ezekiel. John didn't croon to Jesus.

Lucifer who was the musical enchanter in the garden of Eden and having the king of Tyre as his agent is called the "harp playing prostitute."

ALL MUSIC in the Bible and the pagan world spoke of RELIGION which is always effeminate or perverted. In opposition to this Jesus DIED to BUILD HIS SYNAGOGUE or "school of the Bible."

THE VINEYARD (NEW WINESKIN) direct assertion is that the NEW STYLE SONG BOOK and "MUSIC AS WORSHIP" INTENDS to bring the "audience" into KNOWING GOD PERSONALLY which is in a SEXUAL WAY.

Musicologist recognize even the OLD STYLE HYMNS by Fanny Crosby etc were GENDER CONFUSING.

http://www.piney.com/RmHymns.html

That is a fact with NO presently found rebuttal.

=================================

Now, as some of the ConcernedMembers have noted: "There is no MUSICAL word used in the entire Bible related to spiritual worship." You cannot worship IN THE SPIRIT with the works of your carnal body or human talent.

The ONLY clear "worship word" used by Paul in connection with the assembly (synagogue-like words) is to GIVE HEED to God by GIVING HEED to His Word (as it has been taught."

Romans 15, Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 are NOT REMOTELY RELATED TO MUSIC. "Melody" occurs when someone TWANGS one of the hairs on your head as they enslave you.

MELODY is not remotely MODERN HARMONY which takes the "creation of spiritual anxiety" to its peak of Babylon Tower Power.

Here, just responded to an e-mail and just STUMBLED to this fact about the Woman at the Well:

--"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit (A PLACE) and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. John 4:23

----"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit (A PLACE) and in truth. John 4:24

Get the point? If you can discover how to COMMUNE with God Who is Holy (wholly, pure, undilluted) Spirit with your HANDS or MUSICAL TALENT then you are a MIRACLE WORKER.

God created YOUR spirit in your COMPLETED BODY to give you the ONLY "communicator" with His Spirit. Now, the woman at the well was VASTLY MENTALLY SUPERIOR AND BIBLICAL LITERATE THAN THE SOWERS OF DISCORD.

The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come,
---HE will TELL us ALL THINGS. John 4:25

Jesus saith unto her, I that SPEAK unto thee am he. John 4:26

The Greek word SPEAK is:

Laleo (g2980) lal-eh'-o; a prol. form of an otherwise obsol. verb; to talk, i.e. utter words: - preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Comp. 3004.

Paul told the Ephesians that they should FILL up with the Spirit or Word (Col 3:16, John 6:63) Then they should IMITATE CHRIST and SPEAK the Word one to another:

WORSHIP IN TRUTH: Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,

WORSHIP IN SPIRIT: singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; Eph 5:19

So, let's RECOVER from the DIVERSION. We are NOT speaking about STYLES or personal PREFERENCES any more than you have your PREFERENCES about a MENU for the Lord's Supper. Or about the LIQUID you will use for baptism. God is SPIRIT well beyond the comprehension and REACH of making love to Him. To be a DISCIPLE or CHRISTIAN you just have to TRUST (that faith word) Jesus Christ by trusting HIS WORDS to conveny SPIRIT and LIFE.

"Melody as TUNEFULNESS belongs to the 19th century" according to the Britannica. Therefore, I know that Paul was not speaking about MUSIC composed by non-students as ABLE to CONVEY Spirit and Life.

What you guys are SINGING is EROTIC as all MUSIC is erotic or you wouldn't worship popular musicians including CCM stealing the name CHRISTIAN for commercial purposes: seeing godliness as a means of financial gain.

What you are singing VIOLATES the approved example of Jesus and many DIRECT COMMANDS that the BIBLICAL INSPIRED METRICAL MATERIAL was to be used to TEACH and ADMONISH because it is a poetic HISTORY of Israel.

So, the word PREFERENCES is a very dangerous WORD when modern TASTS trumps the Holy Spirit of God which is the Mind of Christ TRANSMITTED to us ONLY by HIS Word which are Spirit and Life (John 6:63). The SPIRIT OF CHRIST is the SPIRIT Who guided the prophets (1 Pet 1:11; Rev 19:10).

NO MUSIC AS SPIRITUAL WORSHIP IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE.

MUSIC THE UNIVERSAL "MARK" WHICH TELLS GOD "WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WORDS." Need proof? Just listen next Sunday and see whether you are teaching and LISTENING to the words of CHRIST or the SUPERIOR words of the EROTIC praise songs. Praise songs were historically to AROUSE or AWAKEN or APPEASE or THREATEN the "gods" to force them to give PHYSICAL GIFTS.

NO MUSIC IN SPIRITUAL WORSHIP: MY SIDE IS 100% OF THE BIBLICAL AND HISTORICAL EVIDENCE. YOUR AUTHORITY IS SHELLY. That means that there is 0% of the evidence which associates the performed music as OTHER than the erotic MIND-ALTERING devices of the holy whore in all pagan religions

Hope Shelly can remit your sins!

Yield not temptation,
For yielding is sin.
Each victory will help you
Some other to win.

FIGHT MANFULLY onward
Dark passions subdue,
Look ever to Jesus,
He will carry you through.

Shun evil companions
Bad language disdain
God's name hold in reverence
Nor take it in vain.

Be thoughtful and earnest
Kindhearted and true
Look ever to Jesus
He will carry you through.

IF YOU LOOK TO THE MUSICAL PERFORMER HE WILL NOT CARRY YOU ANYWHERE BUT "OUTSIDE OF YOURSELF."


KEN SUBLETT

Ken,
This is an outsanding article and a pleasure to read. I read it twice. I had never really thought about it before but your referring to "in the spirit" as a "Place" is exactly right. I also especially liked a couple of other statements that you made that I would like to re-affirm.

1) "There is no MUSICAL word used in the entire Bible related to spiritual worship." You cannot worship IN THE SPIRIT with the works of your carnal body or human talent."

2) Get the point? If you can discover how to COMMUNE with God Who is Holy (wholly, pure, undilluted) Spirit with your HANDS or MUSICAL TALENT then you are a MIRACLE WORKER.

Thanks.

Hay, JUNIOR, are you the POPE? If so, I want people to understand what you are up to with your DAGON or fish head hat just like J.Qs. The Jewish priests knew the scam, Machiavelli knew it, Hegel knew it, Hitler knew it but they are all dead. Now, listen up, father:

The CATHOLIC JUBILEE for which the Pope called for in 1987 and to which Flatt, Shelly etc RESPONDED was to return the "TRIBAL LANDS" or FREE congregations back under the SKIRTS of the TRIBAL HEAD or Pope. Jubilee meant that EVERYONE had to attend to be REDEEMED.

In the late 1894's--almostly one century before YOUR JUBILEE to restructure the church, evil men were trying to take the Presbyterian church back into Roman Catholicism. Dr. Kerr reported that it was the YOUNGER MEN who fought against the JUBILEE movement.

That was the HIGH POINT or LOW POINT of the "christian" churches trying to move the Restoration Movement back under RITUALISM while many or perhaps most PRESBYTERIANS were still faithful.

----"There is the ritualism against which a Young Men's Association in Dublin protested

------by declining to countenance a JUBILEE meeting in St. Paul's, London

=========================================

Next, the JUBILEE and especially the "STABLE" of the Grace-Centered movement begins with the falsehood that NON-INSTRUMENTAL CHURCHES OF CHRIST INVENTED THE "AUTHORITY PRINCIPLES" and therefore SOWED DISCORD. But stick a pin at any point of church history and you will find that this began in the BIBLE and was held by almost everyone.

Here, is how YOUR JUBILEE repeated the Catholic Infiltrating and Diverting the Protestant churches:

"The ritualism of the former consists of RITES in worship which have NO AUTHORITY from the WORD of God.

--"The latter, while including similar rites, is specially characterised by a DOGMATIC system directly SUBVERSIVE of the whole DOCTRINE of Christ.

The two ritualisms are not foes to each other, but friends.

"In the school of ritualism, the former is the INFANT department, the latter the adult; and it is often difficult to mark the boundaries betwixt the two.

There is the ritualism against which a YOUNG MEN's Association in Dublin PROTESTED (because they were MEN, no doubt)

--"by declining to countenance a JUBILEE meeting in St. Paul's, London

These and other similar RITES and CEREMONIES have been REUDIATED by the Presbyterianism of this northern kingdom without a dissentient voice for the last 300 YEARS.

---it is probably impossible to devise any better methods for that purpose than those adopted by the RITUALISTS.

--If a NUMBER of ministers (Shelly, Flatt, etc.) in Presbyterian charges where NO ritualism exists were to RESOLVE to ritualise and ROMANISE their congregations, could they adopt better measures than those in operation by RITUALISTS? (The Nashville Jubilee resolved "a wider role for women, musical worship, fellowship with ALL.")

NOTE THE HEGELIAN APPROACH USED BY THE GRACE-CENTERED GROUP AS THEY FIRST DENOUNCE THE AUTHORITY OF NON-INSTRUMENTALISTS. This is called NAVIGATING THE WINDS OF CHANGE or PRAYERFUL BRINKMANSHIP.

"Their plan of campaign would be marked by the following stages at CONSIDERABLE INTERVALS:

1. ADVERSE comments on the SIMPLICITY of the worship observed;

2. a CHOIR, who would ALONE sing;

3. a HYMNAL, with hymns from Romish sources, and
frequent use of hymns by Newman and other notable Romanists; (Twila Paris, Come drink the wine DEFINES the CATHOLIC EUCHARIST)

4. a HARMONIUM (Reed organ) in the Sabbath SCHOOL (Shellly's "non Plenary sessions, Sabbath worship at Farmer's Branch, Youth Meetings, etc.)

5. an ORGAN in the church (a GIFT if possible);

6. occasional references to Protestants as BIGGOTS;

7. frequent use of the terms "THE church," "HOLY COMMUNION," and "holy orders;" (Shelly uses "holy communion" and declares himself as an Evangelist chosen and trained by the sovereign grace of God).

8. a new church in shape of a cross, with chancel, nave, organ loft, apse, altar, and reredos (screening off the holy place); (Steeples or Pillars)

9. introduction of saints' days and holy days, including Ash Wednesday, Maunday Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday, and EASTER SUNDAY; crosses, crosiers; CANDLES; incense; thurifers; and so on.

Would not such ministers and their congregations be READY for union with the Church of England ROMANISERS? Would they not be TOYING all this time with the TRINKETS of BABYLON? Of the Church yielding to such RITES in the period after the FIRST Reformation, Gillespie wrote that

----"her LOVELY LOCKS are frizzled with the crisping pins of ANTI-Christian fashions."

Multitudes of moderate drinkers never, indeed, become drunkards,

--"but the drunkards are RECRUITED from the ranks of the MODERATES, and those who fall into ritualistic habits, little by little, incur the risk of being FULLY Romanised.

These two ritualisms, when closely examined, are seen to be EXACTLY ALIKE in their underlying principle.

----Both arise on the assumption of a RIGHT on the part of the WORSHIPER to exercise his OWN WILL in forms of service and matters of faith. (WILL WORSHIP IS VAIN WORSHIP)

----They both do obeisance to a HUMAN AUTHORITY in the house of God; they EXALT the human WILL to a place of at least EQUALITY with the Divine will."

You CANNOT be a Christian without grasping in part the DISTANCE between a JUNIOR and a Holy, Spirit God. JUNIOR'S preferences SPIT in the face of all that is SPIRITUAL.

JUBILEE GOT GOBBL-ED when the MATURE males rose up to REBUKE the kings who have no clothes.

Welcome to BABYLON: your "fathers" brought your church from BEYOND THE RIVER.

Ken Sublett

From your last post:
The number of baptisms also becomes an issue when someone makes a big deal about these numbers being the result of the contemporary church growth methodology. The true test of the growth SCHEME is the conversion of unbelievers who have not had prior Christian family upbringing. Do you understand? Most, if not all, of the responses at Madison in 2002 were not unusual: either they were children reared in Christian homes or they were folks coming from other congregations.
-- Donnie Cruz

*******
On what do you base your declaration above? Did you take the confessions of any of those being baptized at Madison in 2002 or since? Were you their teacher? Did you visit their Christian home or invite them from another congregation?

It is easy to make a declarative statement and challenge someone to disprove it. Proving it is another kettle of fish altogether.

If, indeed, any or all came from other congregations, were raised in Christian homes or were unbelievers to begin with does that lessen the importance of their obedience to the commandment of baptism? If it does, please explain how.

And, for the record, there were unbelievers baptized into Christ in 2002 at Madison. I personally spoke with some of them upon greeting them as new brothers/sisters in Christ after their baptisms. I did not notice you doing that.

Annie:

OK. I was the one that made the declarative statement: “The true test of the [culture-driven church] growth SCHEME is the conversion of unbelievers who have not had prior Christian family upbringing … Most, if not all, of the responses at Madison in 2002 were not unusual: either they were children reared in Christian homes or they were folks coming from other congregations.”

Just like you, I have never questioned the importance of baptism. Just like you, I rejoice when someone becomes a child of God and is added to His church. The difference between us may have something to do perhaps with: that you did “take the confessions” of those baptized in 2002 and that you were their teacher, etc. And it’s quite OK that you could brag about your good deeds. But you did not say anything to disprove my “declarative statement.”

My proof of an instance of “Christian upbringing” is when a Christian father baptizes his own child into Christ, as is the case many a time. That’s wonderful! But it’s also wonderful to hear a confession made by a Roman Catholic or a Buddhist or an atheist in the “COMMUNITY” … and being able to put on Christ through baptism to begin a new Christian life. When this type of conversion is a direct result of a Saddleback methodology –- this is the kind of evidence I am looking for. Otherwise, the Contemporary Christian Movement or the Community Church or Charismatic Movement is simply there to transform an existing church to a different cause.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz

Pardon the repeat below but it is necessary to illustrate your twisting of words:

I asked you if YOU took the confessions, etc., etc. as you can see below. YOU stated that I bragged about doing same. As anyone can see by reading word for word, I did nothing of the sort. I was questioning how you could, with authority, break down the types of responses at Madison in 2002 and you dodged the question (big surprise -- not!). I DID NOT brag of any good deeds unless you call greeting a new brother or sister in Christ bragging. If that is the case, then we should all be braggarts because we certainly should extend fellowship to those who obey the gospel call, agreed?

Your point about fathers baptizing children is valid but only accounts for a small percentage of those baptized. I'll ask again: Where does your "statistical" information come from?

And I am further confused. Are you saying baptism of unbelievers is proof of a "scheme" and is somehow wrong or baptism of Christian-raised children is wrong? Or are baptisms into Christ at Madison ALL wrong? And, who judges which are right and wrong? I would really like some elucidation on some of this, but I am not hopeful of anything more than repeat, repeat, repeat of the same words and phrases in every post you make.
**************************
PREVIOUS POST--

On what do you base your declaration above? Did you take the confessions of any of those being baptized at Madison in 2002 or since? Were you their teacher? Did you visit their Christian home or invite them from another congregation?

It is easy to make a declarative statement and challenge someone to disprove it. Proving it is another kettle of fish altogether.

If, indeed, any or all came from other congregations, were raised in Christian homes or were unbelievers to begin with does that lessen the importance of their obedience to the commandment of baptism? If it does, please explain how.

And, for the record, there were unbelievers baptized into Christ in 2002 at Madison. I personally spoke with some of them upon greeting them as new brothers/sisters in Christ after their baptisms. I did not notice you doing that.
****************
RESPONSE TO PREVIOUS POST:

Donnie Cruz

199.91.33.254 Re: Where is your information coming from? (Anonymous) April 5 2003, 2:35 PM April 6 2003, 1:34 AM

Annie:

OK. I was the one that made the declarative statement: “The true test of the [culture-driven church] growth SCHEME is the conversion of unbelievers who have not had prior Christian family upbringing … Most, if not all, of the responses at Madison in 2002 were not unusual: either they were children reared in Christian homes or they were folks coming from other congregations.”

Just like you, I have never questioned the importance of baptism. Just like you, I rejoice when someone becomes a child of God and is added to His church. The difference between us may have something to do perhaps with: that you did “take the confessions” of those baptized in 2002 and that you were their teacher, etc. And it’s quite OK that you could brag about your good deeds. But you did not say anything to disprove my “declarative statement.”



My proof of an instance of “Christian upbringing” is when a Christian father baptizes his own child into Christ, as is the case many a time. That’s wonderful! But it’s also wonderful to hear a confession made by a Roman Catholic or a Buddhist or an atheist in the “COMMUNITY” … and being able to put on Christ through baptism to begin a new Christian life. When this type of conversion is a direct result of a Saddleback methodology –- this is the kind of evidence I am looking for. Otherwise, the Contemporary Christian Movement or the Community Church or Charismatic Movement is simply there to transform an existing church to a different cause.

Annie:

Thank you for repeating my previous post for me.

Since you so badly wanted to dispute my point that I wanted evidence for conversions resulting from the Saddleback SCHEME of redemption, I’ll give you the opportunity to present YOUR OWN STATISTICS. To simplify matters, other than those who became Christians because they have had family members with Christian upbringing or other church influences, please give me a count of those converted because of the Saddleback gospel of DRAMA-tized steps of salvation or because of the redemptive message of the MUSICAL singers (the WORSHIP LEADER’S PRAISE TEAM or CHOIR).

If you’re not familiar with Rick Warren’s culture-driven church growth methodology that the Madison eldership has endorsed and implemented, I would encourage you to research it further. This is probably the reason why we are not communicating. As I’ve already mentioned, baptism is important to me. The issue is not about fathers baptizing their children. The issue is not about baptism of those with Christian influences. The issue has to do with the Saddleback methodology for church growth that is culture-driven and not scripture-driven. How effective is this alternative course of action for growth in the church?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie

Too bad (maybe if it matters) Peter prescribed it this way:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME (singular) of JESUS CHRIST for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And so did the rest of the Bible and the historic church until they decided to dip three times in the NAMES of the Trinity. But I have told you that Father, Son and Spirit are NOT NAMES. Jesus commanded:

Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL power is GIVEN unto ME in HEAVEN and in EARTH.

What power is not in the hands of Jesus Christ In Whom dwells FULL DEITY?

?What is ME'S Name?" It is Jesus or Joshua or Jehovah- Saved." Jehovah is NEVER three people.

Mt.28:19 GO ye therefore, and TEACH all nations, baptizing them in the NAME (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

-----------------------------Father
Jehovah Saved is Name of-----Son
-----------------------------Holy Spirit

God is holy (WHOLLY) Spirit but SPIRIT is NOT a name: the Spirit of God is the MIND of Jesus Christ (1 Cor 2). The SPIRIT OF CHRIST was the SPIRIT in the Prophets (1 Peter 1:11). The TESTIMONY OF JESUS is therefore the SPIRIT OF PROPHECY (Rev 19:10). The Lord IS that Spirit the Jews forfeited because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai (2Cor 3:17)

John 6:63 "It is the SPIRIT that quickeneth; the flesh (singy-clappy is RAW FLESH) profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE.

1Jn.5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit IS truth.

The HOLY SPIRIT is the MIND OF CHRIST which He put into HIS WORDS and delivered to the writers: Your THOUGHT LEADERS deny that either Christ or the SPIRIT (PERSON) had the power to GUARD the Word. However, the explicit claim is: "BUT, I can give you the LATEST version hot off Howard"s press FOR A PRICE, ALWAYS FOR A PRICE."

NOTHING FOR SALE IS CHRISTIAN: NOTHING CHRISTIAN IS FOR SALE.

You are building FAITH in the PERFORMERS and they CANNOT have a clue about the REAL Jesus Christ Who was prophesied to be Jehovah- Saved Incarnated. As has been noted ALL of the NEW STYLE Jubilated churches REPUDIATE the Biblical and Historical baptism. They subscribe to a 1500 AD misunderstood Zwingli version now appropriated by the Baptist church. This is an ancient PAGAN BAPTISM.

It declares that Baptism is a pledge of the GOOD CONSCIENCE you had BY FAITH ONLY or Max Lucado by "calling God Father only."

Paul said that water baptism is where we APPEAL TO OR BEG GOD FOR A CLEAR CONSCIENCE because we trust the work of Jesus Christ. YOUR NIV says that baptism is a PLEDGE and careless readers grasp that as OUR VOW OR GUARANTEE TO GOD THAT WE WILL BE GOOD BOYS (Lucado).

What good is OUR pledge to be good if we lie about the God we are STANDING GOOD FOR AS A GUARANTEE by our baptism. Your pagan baptism is PERVERTED CALVINISM by the Baptists. You are telling them that God PICKED THEM OUT to be saved FROM ETERNITY and therefore there is NOTHING they can do to be saved and NOTHING they can do to be lost. At the same time, honest Bible students are PICKED OUT by God Just so He can burn them in hell. I would BURN my "baptismal certificate" guaranteed by you guys.

Worse than Calvinism, isn't that SELF-SALVATION? Doesn't that fit the TITHE as an absolute RETURN to sacrificing Jesus? Does't the MAD MUSIC prove that you are MOCKING the animals as a TYPE of Jesus Christ.

No. I suspect that you are DEPRIVING people of the right to be DISCIPLED enough to ASK for remission of sins rather than DEMAND it because of your belief.

Little children CANNOT die to self (and quite stroking themselves in public) until they are aware that they are LOST without ASKING christ to wash their spirits.

Paul didn't COUNT baptisms. He sees you like CORINTHIANS for giving credit for baptisms to YOUR Anti-Christian teachings and self-directed charismatic fits.

Ken Sublett

AC 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call."

AC 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
(NIV)

==================================================
MR. GEORGE’S STATEMENT ON 4.06.03 (RE: WHAT’S HAPPENING AT MADISON)
==================================================
“””Donnie, I have been a member at Madison for the lats 10 yrs and have observed this site for a month or so and read several of the posts and see the tone of aggressiveness and anger in the hearts of people like you and Ken and don't see the fact that you can call yourself a child of God... John Paul George Jr”””
==================================================

==================================================
Now, in response to Ken Sublett, Mr. George is saying: [[[“I'm not the one being aggressive Ken and I am not saying you are either. I just find it hard to fathom how you can come across with some sort of an attitude in your responses ... I know you have been around for some time and have been well grounded in the Bible but some of your rebuttals I begin to question. How can you say that music is errotic? There is nothing errotic about singing praises to our Lord… John Paul George, Jr”]]]
==================================================

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EXAMPLE OF [IF NOT POSSIBLY MISCONTRUED AS] EROTIC MUSIC
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--- I Was Made For This (*sheet in red notebook)
--- --- Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss,
--- --- To know a love divine, to know this love is mine,
--- --- And I was made to laugh, and I was made to sing …
--- --- My feet were made to dance, my spirit made to soar …
--- --- For I was made for You, and I have made my choice …
--- --- When I was far away you ran to welcome me.
--- --- I felt Your warm embrace, I saw your smiling face….
--- --- Oh I was made for this. I was made to love You, Jesus.
--- --- Oh! I was made to love You, Jesus. I was made for this.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++~

Donnie Cruz

Oh, Mr. Donnie, I didn't know that it was so OUTED.

Now, the DOVE rested on Jesus to prove that God is a FATHER figure and not an Eve, Zoe, Inanna, Semiramis figure. And the WORD or voice of God is A SON and not a DAUGHTER. Only the DIONYSUS-AFFLICTED priesthood got violent because Jesus wouldn't PERFORM.

Now, again, the Jews HOPED that John was homosexual like most of the "prophesiers." And that Jesus was Dionysus (Feminine mostly) who would SING and DANCE while they PIPED.

For MALES to sing LOVE SONGS (most Wimberized New Style 'praise hymns') to want to GET IN BED with a MALE deity IMPLIES and TEACHES and PRESIDES OVER to convey a PERVERTED message. This is 100% consistent with ALL praise singers and songs in history.

I have lost the LINK but the claim was that Homosexuals (not gay at all) had taken over the MOVIE and MUSIC industry and "RELIGION IS NEXT."

THIS IS WHY PERHAPS HALF OF THE "AUDIENCE" FLED IN HORRORS WITHOUT FULLY UNDERSTANDING THE "AROMA OF DEATH."

HERE IS THE MASCULINE LOVE A MALE GOD DEMANDS OF BOTH MALE AND FEMALE:

Jn.14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Agapao means to love in social or moral sense.

Jn.14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Now, MANIFEST means to be present and reveal: it does not promise a KNOWING or SEXUAL sexperience.

Jn.15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.

2Jn.1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Inanna, the holy whore, was given the gift of musical instruments and singing to seduce. Her ultimate goal was to TEAR DOWN TEMPLES and CREATE DIVISION AMONG PEACABLE BROTHERS. Her love was a PERVERTED love.

Your TEAM is DEEP into an EROTIC love any time you LUST to go beyond the equivalent of a hand shake. Someone noted that the CLAPPERS were a small group so one suspects that this is an EROTIC PAGAN RITUAL taking place between the WORSHIPFUL LEADER and his HAREM.

"Musical performers were ALWAYS known as the HAREM OF THE gods." Quasten

The burried MUSES resurrected as LOCUSTS (musical performers) have swarmed: don't get stung by their scorpion TAILS and bring on a PLAGUE of weeping sores. These sores are GREVIOUS or DEPRAVED because they are inflicted by PORNEROS the result of FORNICATION (porneia).

The SORES are ulcerous as in "the dogs licked his sores." Akin to DRAG. See Revelation 16.

This is one of the MARKS of the Beast.

Rev 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments; for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

Historic scholars understanding the Hebrew see the TOTAL SEDUCTION of Eve and the EATING of Adam as SODOMY. The Bible predicts that the holy whore with her MUSICIANS and instruments will be destroyed with her in Revelation 18.

Yes, the TOTAL SEDUCTION of the church as CIRCE as opposed to the church of Christ as school of the Bible is identical to all falls: imposed by homosexual musicians. So, why set up the IMAGE in the "Holy Place" claiming to be God by the REPUDIATION of God's Word and perversity right there in the TEMPLE in Jerusalem? Yes, Shelly says that the MUSICIANS can help "lead you into the presence of God." That means that the TEAMS are HIRELING to replace Lord Jesus Christ who died for the RIGHT to be the ONE and ONLY mediator.

Prophecy fulfilled. There is no more sacrifice for sin. Fufills the story of The Book of Enoch and 3 dozen other documents connecting religious music to Sodom.

Ken Sublett

I (again) apologize for four reasons: (1) for misspelling the word “misconstrued”; the subtopic should have stated as follows:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
EXAMPLE OF [IF NOT POSSIBLY MISCONSTRUED AS] EROTIC MUSIC
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

… (2) for not quoting the song, “I Was Made for This,” in its entirety –- the song is in the “red notebook” that includes a number of compiled “praise” songs used by the WORSHIP LEADER and his MUSICIANS at the Madison Church of Christ; (3) for failing to mention that the bottom of the sheet music states: “Copyright © 1995 Make Way Music”; (4) that the [… more likely a contemporary “Christian rock”] artist was a male –- the top of the sheet states: “Words & Music by Graham Kendrick.”

Sorry!
Donnie Cruz
==========

Wow Donnie I didn't know you could take a song so out of context and say that it is errotic. There is not a thing at all wrong with it other than your opinion of it.

Evan:

How could I have taken the song out of context when I quoted it as written without changing words? I even gave the reader the benefit by stating that this particular song as worded could POSSIBLY be MISCONSTRUED as erotic. LOVE is one of God’s characteristics or attributes (God is love) and LOVE is not to be simulated, expressed or directed to the Father in humanly self-centered, irreverent and compassionately erotic sense. For example, “love divine” are also words in a secular romance song, “Because You Come to Me.”

The entire song, intended as it might have been to be a “PRAISE” song, is hardly a personal “praise” music, much less a hymn-for-worship material. Just note the title of the song, “I Was Made for [Wha-a-a-a-t]?” And the other expressions: your tender kiss … this love is mine … I was made for you … I felt your warm embrace … I was made to love you, Jesus (notice the “comma” between “you” and “Jesus”).

The Community Church Movement has it that the assembly of the body of believers should make worship accommodating to visitors and those outside the church. What would an atheist or unbeliever think of “praise” songs, such as “I Was Made for This”? To get to the point, hymn writers must be extremely careful in the portrayal of the good news of salvation. Otherwise, we have no other alternative than to conclude that the so-called business-oriented contemporary “Christian” ROCK artists are there to author more “PRAISE” songs that APPEAL to the physical senses and that SELL!!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz

Donnie,
Before I sent that last message I didnt notice the reply that you put regarding the song I Was Made For This. I still don't agree with you and get from your last reply that songs that say "Love Divine" are errotic because they have the theme of "secular and sexual (reference to Ken Sublett cause everything is sexual to him) romance. I don't see that in this song. Everybody has their own opinion. I'm not saying your wrong but I just don't agree with your view on what this song says. THe song has much more of a fulfilling message of Christ's love and desire for us to mold our lives around Him. To live in Him and always follow His ways. "O God you are my God....and step by step you lead me....and I will follow you all of my days."
P.S. I guess this means the old standard hymns....such as "Love Divine, Redeemed, and Angry Words can also be taken as secular romance songs because of the reference of love in the songs...? May God continue to open your heart and convict you in your thoughts!

Evan Duncan

Evan:

I’m afraid that I didn’t explain myself well enough for YOU to understand. So, let me put it this way. Just because “love divine” is in the song doesn’t qualify it as worship material. It is all negated by erotic references and expressions in the rest of the song, even if that wasn’t the intent of the Christian ROCK artist. The song, “I Was Made for Wha-a-a-a-a?” hardly speaks of God’s special attribute -- LOVE. “… God is love. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love” (I John 4:8,16)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie

The hamster wheel which goes bump, bump but at least gives the hamster some value. Therefore, for those who are DISCIPLES (Christians) we have to REPEAT for the slow members of the slow group that if we repeat just one fact all week they will be able to pass the exam on Friday.

So, here goes: Romans 15, Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 ALL command TEACHING. The ONLY resource for acquiring SPIRIT TRUTH is that which "has been written by the Holy Spirit of Christ in the prophets." (1 Peter 1:11, etc.)

One of the FIRST heresies "widely pervading the church" was a CLERGY PRECENTER or SINGER. The second most fatal SOWER OF DISCORD was the use of human SCRIPTURE which was LEGISLATED AGAINST. If a HUMAN composes a POEM it is one more REMOVE from the Biblical truth "as it has been taught." At least Fanny Crosby did not DIVIDE CHURCHES as the RM quickly apostasized from the faithful PRESBYTERIAN obedience of Paul and use of the Biblical metrical material.

=============
"White gospel hymns written between 1860 and 1910 constitute musical worship in many Southern BAPTIST churches. Since the mid-twentieth century these hymns have been denigrated by musicologists; Nell Woods Black, Floyd Patterson, and Henry Wilder Foote label these hymns "sentimental" on the basis of their texts, music, and style. A pervasive textual theme is one's relationship to Christ, whether a brotherly relationship

or a passionate, EROTIC relationship.

Scholars have derided this theme because they perceive it to be at a LOWER LEVEL

than hymns that portray the Divine as an all-powerful being.

The HARMONIC and RYTHMIC patterns of the hymns are repetitious, as is the use of a refrain, and scholars have labeled this a DEFECT.

The style of the hymns arises from two intersecting extant styles:

the camp meeting tradition and the popular song; this too has been considered a LACK of INTEGRITY.

Because of these perceived deficiencies, there has been little scholarly interest in these hymns.
There also seems to be a DISCOMFORT with music in general and hymns in particular

that CAUSE a person to REACT emotionally.

Beneath the dismissal of the hymns based on their sentimental aspects runs an undercurrent of disdain related to perceptions of GENDER in the hymns.

In general, the perception of sentimentality and of reacting emotionally has strong associations with FEMINITY (Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick, Barbara Epstein, and Gail Bederman)..

But ideas of the masculine and feminine in the historical contexts of these hymns were quite different from our late-twentieth-century ideas of gender.

The hymns' texts and music show MASCULINITY to have been bound up with feelings of brotherhood, gentleness, and SUBMISSION to Divine leadership.

The texts also suggest how ideas of femininity were associated with child-like qualities and an EROTIC submission to the Divine.
======================================

Philo of Alexandria had already emphasized the ethical qualities of music,

spurning the 'EFFEMINATE' art of his Gentile surroundings.

Similarly, early synagogue song intentionally foregoes artistic perfection, renounces the playing of instruments,

and attaches itself entirely to 'the WORD'—the TEXT of the Bible" (Encyclopaedia Judaica, 1971 ed., s.v. "Music")

AND SO DOES ANY CHURCH WHICH CAN CLAIM TO BE "CHRISTIAN."

Ken Sublett, really TREADING out graps.

Evan:

Let’s not get the “Christian” ROCK artist’s definition of LOVE MADE EROTIC to SELL a “praise” song confused with Charles Wesley’s or Fanny Crosby’s scriptural definition of LOVE that describes God’s spiritual attribute. I’m glad you mentioned those three songs:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“LOVE DIVINE,” by Charles Wesley, speaks of: “Love divine, all love excelling … Jesus, Thou art all compassion, Pure, unbounded love Thou art; Visit us with Thy salvation, Enter every trembling heart!”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“REDEEMED,” by Fanny J. Crosby, speaks of redemption: “Redeemed how I LOVE to proclaim it! Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb; Redeemed thru His infinite mercy, His child, and forever, I am.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“ANGRY WORDS,” by D.K.P. and H.R. Palmer, expresses Eph. 4:29-32: “Angry words! O let them never from my tongue unbridled slip; ‘Love one another,’ thus saith the Savior; children, obey the Father’s blest command…”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

========================================
“I WAS MADE FOR THIS,” by Graham Kendrick, in contrast:
========================================
--- I Was Made For This (*sheet in red notebook)
--- --- Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss,
--- --- To know a love divine, to know this love is mine,
--- --- And I was made to laugh, and I was made to sing …
--- --- My feet were made to dance, my spirit made to soar …
--- --- For I was made for You, and I have made my choice …
--- --- When I was far away you ran to welcome me.
--- --- I felt Your warm embrace, I saw your smiling face….
--- --- Oh I was made for this. I was made to love You, Jesus.
--- --- Oh! I was made to love You, Jesus. I was made for this.
========================================

Sorry, but a human being by nature, especially an unbeliever who knows nothing about the gospel of truth and love, may have difficulty understanding Graham’s message. This song, even with the mention of “love divine” and “Jesus,” hardly describes God’s love or how Christians are to love God and neighbors.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

That is just your opinion. Not everyone thinks what you say is right and not everyone who looks at this site sees that in a lot of things that are said. You stretch the truth of what really is happening as well as what you think will happen next. Also, your tendency to divert from the positive side of things happening and always stressing what you see as negative. Name me 10 positive things right now that you see happening at Madison?

***Ken, no need for comment....this is directed to Donnie only? Also, speak English.

Serving Him,
John Paul George, Jr

Also, if you would like Donnie, I can consult some of your longtime fans like Miss Cleo and Dionne Warwick and some of her psychic friends....In the meantime, "Keep smiling, keep shining, knowing you can always count on me for sure....that's what friends are for....." In good times in bad times...I'll be by your side forevermore....thats what friends are for..."

Because of the Cross,
John Paul George, Jr

I am sincerly asking the moderators as well as the most prolific contributors to this site including, but not limited to, Kenneth Sublett aka Mohammed Saeed al-Sanaf's first cousin, to seriously consider the following question:

How much literal time am I spending criticizing, mocking, slamming, and berating the Madison Church of Christ, its shepherds, ministers, and members as opposed to:

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Talk amongst yourselves if you wish. As for me and my house, we are going to stop checking out this garden of ill will and go about the business of feeding sheep.

Challenge met: I spend most of my time DOING SOMETHING but very little on this forum. YOUR sowing of discord has spread all over the world and together with JUBILEE you guys get the TROPHY for world series SOWING OF DISCORD which is a TERMINAL STRIKE OUT.

Each time one of the SNIPERS rises up with stuff about ME AND MY PREFERENCES I spend about half an hour answering because I am a DISCIPLE which is the ONLY way a Spirit God is worshipped in the HUMAN SPIRIT devoted to the Word. At aged 72+ I would bet that I spend more time in Bible study than all of the preachers in Nashville. Just yesterday I got an earful from a poor lady who let herself get entangled in WALK TO EMMAUS which is at heart a Catholic recruitment cult approved apparently by ACU or its agents. Try my home page and ASK THE LIBRARIAN A QUESTION and see how I spend my time.

Madison has lived high on being the MOTHER CHURCH of churches of Christ for many years. Many churches have been seduced into the CHURCH GROWTH CULT by adding the MINISTRY SYSTEM which God imposed on the Monarchy Israelites to ENSLAVE them and lead them into captivity and death.

You and yours still SOW DISCORD by promoting the Shellyites. Why would you learn about Tithing from a man who speaks in tongues, heals and hopes to see RAISING THE DEAD and not expect some background TESTING THE SPIRITS.

That discord is FELT and even promoted by the workshops of your TEAMS and your imposing on the people the CHIEF DISCORDERS and teachers of false doctrine based on THEIR APOSTOLIC right to MOVE OUT OF THE CHRISTENDOM ERA into a POST MODERN, Holy Spirit led form of paganism. All of the CHIEF DISCORDERS I know about return to FATHER JUBILEE for new and improved VISIONS through the Nashvillians New Glasses revealing the NEW CHURCH.

The Only way to FEED: Paul and Peter insist that we TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT for a very good reason:

---It is the ONLY way to pick out the FALSE PROPHETS as those whom MEN SHALL SPEAK WELL (Luke 6:26)

Only a FALSE PROPHET and one who REJECTS the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ would dare threaten people with either a REWARD or a CURSE associated with TITHING. Tithing BOUGHT the sacrificial animals as the TYPE of Jesus Christ.

Only false prophets or shepherds who MUDDY THE WATERS for the flock would SET BEFORE YOU professional singers or actors to represent ANY spiritual truth. To do so is to MAKE IDOLS of actors or singers. Ezekiel 34, like Paul, put the BLAME always on FALSE SHEPHERDS neither selected by nor approved by the assembly

To agree beforehand (which usually happens in these cult movements) to SACRIFICE one third to one half of the FLOCK in order to FEED the remaining flock with GROUND UP DUST (melody) is to make a church into a anti- Christian CIRCE.

PAUL WROTE BUT YOUR THOUGHT LEADERS DENY ITS AUTHORITY: ONE OF THE UNCONCERNED MEMBERS DUBBED HIS WRITINGS "EXAMPLES" AND NOT "COMMANDS." SURELY A TERMINAL BLASPHEMY! Here is what Paul thought: agree with it or get the LOGO OF CHRIST off your property:

Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things alway in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 2 Peter 1:16

For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 2 Peter 1:17

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 2 Peter 1:18

We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the DAY STAR arise in your HEARTS: 2 Peter 1:19

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2 Peter 1:20

---Meaning: Further expounding.

For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21

BUT there were FALSE PROPHETS also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 1: 1

THE THREE SEPARATED "PERSONS" OF THE SHELLY - LUCADO GOD FAMILY IS CLAIMED BY THEIR FRIEND TO DENY HIS HUMANITY. THE CONCLUSION IS THAT YOUR VERSION OF THE TRINITY IS ANTI-CHRIST.

And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of TRUTH shall be evil spoken of. 2 Peter 1: 2

THE SHELLY ETAL CORE GOSPEL SPEAKS EVIL OF THE TRUTH IN THE EPISTLES JUST AS ONE OF THE "MEMBERS" HAS DONE.

And through covetousness shall they with FEIGNED WORDS make MERCHANDISE of you: whose judgment now of a LONG TIME lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 2 Peter 1: 3

For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Peter 1: 4

JUDE IDENTIFIES THESE BY HIS QUOTATIONS OF THE BOOK OF ENOCH AS THOSE WHO WERE SEDUCED BY SATAN TO INTRODUCE "MIXED SEX CHOIRS, INSTRUMENTS, DANCE, DRAMATIC VISIONS OF DRESS AND HOMOSEXUALITY." GOD WILL COME WITH 10,000 OF HIS SAINTS AS HE DID AT SINAI WHEN THE PEOPLE "ROSE UP TO PLAY: DRAMATIC MUSICAL IDOLATRY." Enoch makes a TREE much brighter than these false prophets who still LINGER according to Jesus and Peter and Jude.

YOUR spirit cannot be HOLY if it leads you into WORSHIP RITUALS as opposed to FEEDING only by teaching "that which has been written."

But, you JUDGE HARSHLY: I have posted nothing which does not reject your false doctrine. Any PERSONAL pinches are guilt complexes: all I have told you that the PERSONA of a musical performer or preacher performer or a dance performer or a dramatic performer has its ONLY ROOTS in paganism and is UNIVERSALLY attributed to Satan. I can't help it if the pattern fits.

Your songs are CALCULATED to remove all of the MALENESS from the church as the fulfillment of the most ancient legends and the book of Revelation. That, my friend, is why you cannot RISE to a rebuttal of what I have taught in this forum which you have NEVER heard before. Why? Because Jesus said that "the doctors of the law take away the KEY to knowledge" and knowledge is one of the SEVEN SPIRITS which rested on Messiah.

I don't sweat out the day waiting for new knowledge coming from those who repudiate GOD by repudiating His word every time it is spoken about. At 3:35 I am WAY PAST my nap.

Ken Sublett

Mr. George:

You sound very desperate.

“Cry Me a River” and “Get Me a Psychic” would make good contemporary “Christian” ROCK “praise” MUSIC. You see … we now have these “river” songs and “GIVE US” [which is better than “give me”] illusions and allusions:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Down to the River to Pray”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--- Oh, fathers, let’s go down in the river to pray …
--- Oh, mothers, let’s go down in the river to pray …
--- Oh, brothers, let’s go down in the river to pray …
--- Oh, sisters, let’s go down in the river to pray …
--- Oh, SINNERS, let’s go down in the river to pray …
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“The River Is Here” [… dancing with laughter] (*sheet music …)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“Riverdancing” for Jesus, Dal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ken Sublett’s research indicates: [[[“““While the CHARISMATIC revival with its characteristic 'praise and worship' MUSIC has spread throughout Britain, the influence and effects of another aspect of 'PRAISE' music must be considered. CELTIC DANCING as seen in LORD of the Dance and Riverdance which features reels in praise of the S.U.N. has been described as the dance phenomenon of the 90's. … Riverdance and Lord of the Dance are frequently described with terms such as: 'a little Celtic magic' and indeed the Druids, the priests of the Celts, were MAGICIANS. Led by the Druids, the Celts worshipped nature gods, including TREES, rivers, and the S.U.N.”””]]] As I’ve said before: “I’m not even going to stop him [Dal] from gyrating to the worship musical and riverdancing for Jesus.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“GIVE US A WORSHIP LEADER” … HAS BECOME A BIG BUSINESS +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
A separate thread titled, “Give Us a Worship Leader,” has this to say:

[[[“““This is a want ad for a "worship leader:"

Job Description: St Matthew’s Lutheran Church is passionate about reaching out to the richly diverse and secular neighbors whom we share the freeway with. We are looking for a Minister of Worship & Celebration (Lay or Ordained) who is wired to empower heart-felt worship using today’s music, multi-media and the arts. We are a grace driven ministry that relies upon team building to reach those who normally would not check out church. We tend to be a bit irreverent. We bring our coffee into worship and do not tend to attract the squeaky clean. We are looking for a leader who knows it’s not about them

There are magazines and web sites dedicated to the “worship leader." This has become a big business. Here is an excerpt form a recent article in a "worship leader" magazine telling a little about what they believe:

The Spoken Voice: … Shouting - Psalm 27:6 says, "Then my head will be exalted above the enemies who surround me; at his tabernacle will I sacrifice with shouts of joy; I will sing and make music to the Lord."

Our Posture: … Dancing - Psalm 149:3 says, "Let them praise his name with dancing and make music to him with tambourine and harp."

Our Hands: … Playing Instruments - Psalm 33:2, 3 says, "Praise the Lord with the harp; make music to him on the ten stringed lyre. Sing to him a new song; play skillfully, and shout for joy." … Clapping - Psalm 47:1 says, "Clap your hands, all you nations; shout to God with cries of joy." ”””]]]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mr. George, let me give you one positive comment about what’s happening at the Madison Church of Christ. Your idea of “Get Me a Psychic” has wonderfully led me to an excellent thought that the congregation’s leaders have been granted their spiritual request to “GIVE US A WORSHIP LEADER.” Keep in mind that TRULY the silent majority of the church of our Savior still thinks and believes the TRUTH of the gospel. And in the case of Madison, unless the elders recognize that 90% of church conflicts has to do with worship issues, mainly propagated by the WORSHIP LEADER and his MUSICIANS (Praise Team), division in the church will continue. It’s not TOO LATE, in fact, it is necessary for the supposedly church LEADERS to deny them these positions –- POSITIONS THAT HAVE NO PLACE IN THE CHURCH’S ORG CHART!!!

Mr. George, the TRUTH hurts, doesn’t it? Superficiality, MUSICAL WORSHIP IDOLATRY, display of TALENT, and BUSINESS-ORIENTED gospel have no place in the church; they are no substitute for the TRUTH!

I promise to speak English ... if you speak Scriptures!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie

Donnie:

I think YOU need to realize that 90% of church splits are not caused by worship issues, but personal issues. Churches have split over things such as whether or not to have a kitchen, family life center, or what kind of bread to use for the communion (the baked water/flour/salt combo or the Matzo cracker). It's all a matter of personal preference. You won't change yours and I most likely won't change mine. It's something you won't get around. It's not a spiritual issue, it's not a doctrinal issue. It's a personal issue. And until we learn to live side by side and worship together, there will always be splits over trivial issues.

Jeremy:

In almost all cases, people brainwashed like you never realize when they’re brainwashed. Since you haven’t been studying this site’s messages intently, let me remind you that the statistics I quoted was/is not made up. So, there’s no need for you to twist facts. This is taken from some research done by someone who is more likely not even a member of the church of Christ. Therefore, this is some perspective from outside the box.

Your kitchen-gymnasium argument is old stuff and irrelevant, and it is not even an issue here. It has nothing to do with a Christian’s spirituality, unlike MUSICAL WORSHIP IDOLATRY. As far as “learning to live side by side and worship together” is concerned, this has been the ardent plea of members who have been and are being driven away because of the inconsiderate behavior of worship leaders and praise team members and the bratty youth who have intruded and interfered and have insisted on DOING WORSHIP their way -– doing things that are totally unnecessary and that we can do without and are offensive and distracting. Your desire for harmony is one that musical and handclapping idolaters should have and practice. Why don’t you beg your church leaders to try again what Madison used to do during its glory days, and see how many of those who have left RETURN to the fellowship that they were once a part of????

Just for you, Jeremy, access this thread: “WORSHIP FOR SALE (90% OF ALL CHURCH CONFLICTS ON MUSICAL ISSUES).” How true are the findings by Terry Mattingly:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
[[[“““Even though this industry "makes claims for musical diversity among its ranks, it is primarily a reflection of current folk, pop and rock styles," noted veteran pop musician Charlie Peacock, speaking at a recent conference on "Music and the Church" at Baylor University in Waco, Texas. "Even today's successful modern worship music is composed of these and does not have a distinct style of its own." … While believers lead the companies that dominate Christian music, secular corporations now own these smaller companies, noted Peacock. Clearly this is shaping the "Christian" music sold in religious bookstores and mainstream malls. But this corporate culture is also affecting worship and the heart of church life. … "What we know about Americans is that we view ourselves first and foremost as consumers," said Barna. "Even when we walk in the doors of our churches what we tend to do is to wonder how can I get a good transaction out of this experience. ... So, what we know from our research is that Americans have made worship something that primarily that we do for ourselves. When is it successful? When we feel good."

… 90 percent of all church conflicts reported in this study centered on musical issues.
Is peace possible? Peacock concluded that it will be up to ministers and educators to argue that there is more to worship than the niches on a CCM sales charts. The industry can play a valid role in shaping the content of Christian music, he said, even in "contributing to the congregational music of the church. Still, the industry is at the mercy of a consumer with narrow tastes.”””]]]

If the above research does not alarm you and church leaders, what will?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz

There is no getting through to you is there Donnie?
I asked a simple question and what do I get, everything but the answers? I asked for a list of 10 positive things happening at Madison. You always have to reference everything that is negative from talking about the worship leader and the praise team. I sense anger in your words but that is just my thoughts. Anyways, this very likely will be my last post because I have better sheep to go after and have a goal with a purpose in mind. You however I will pray for that God will mold your heart and open an avenue of service as to what Chuck eluded to in an earlier post.

P.S. I reference to Cry Me A River and Get Me A Psychic, I wasn't speaking of songs and saying anything about them making praise and worship songs. It was a statement. What I meant by it is that you and the rest of your merry men who are on your side should consult because you think certain things are going to happen. Who else to know but a psychic? Or better yet go visit Hohenwald if you can find it on your map and set up a time to meet with Ken Sublett. O wait I forgot he just like you don't like confrontations.

Until You Quit Hiding Behind Your PC,
I Am,
John Paul George Jr

Mr. George:

I was simply trying to keep you from diverting from the REAL ISSUES. (BTW, believe me, I understood your references to the “river” and “psychic” –- they really weren’t worth responding to ... your way.) Scripture-driven positive things should never be issues. But, ah, 10 positive things happening at Madison, you asked? Let’s see. Umm! Umm! Umm! Sorry, but I can think of more things that you and Chuck THINK (and by your standards) are positive, but are rather destructive and divisive.

Did you say, “There is no getting through to you is there Donnie?” I honestly believe the converse or reverse is true: “There is no getting through to you, John Paul, is there?” If I were you and Chuck, I would offer to pray for someone only if ASKED. If not asked, I would simply pray in private without letting others know in public -– remember the “closet prayer” example, which is not hypocritical? I might add, too, John Paul and Chuck, don’t exclude praying for YOUR OWN SELVES while you’re at it, OK?

It appears that hiding behind my PC is working. It’s pretty addictive … I can’t quit!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie Cruz

Donnie,

Would you pray for me and my family?

Chuck