It has been said by some on this site that there is no one that is reading from this site. Yet It gets quite a few numbers for hits. It has also been accused that there are only four people that make up the minority on this site that are for the Old Paths.

If you are on this site and usually just read. this is a call for you to at least submit your name as a response to let everyone here know how many actully read and are influenced by this wonderful site.

Please put you name or just a first name, whether or not you want a response.

------------ Site Summary --------------

Visits

--- Total ------------------------ 64,127
--- Average per Day ---------------- 241
--- Average Visit Length ----------- 7:14
--- This Week -------------------- 1,686

Page Views

--- Total ----------------------- 355,427
--- Average per Day -------------- 1,070
--- Average per Visit --------------- 4.4
--- This Week -------------------- 7,493

The charismatic musical worshipers of Zoe or Lucifer are whistling through the cemetary when they tell fibs about who is watching and reading.

If they just come for the latest JOKE that's ok. Bible rejecting preachers cannot exist without Milton Berl's joke book.

I suppose the truth mockers think that people come to their boy and girl show are looking for truth. History knows that they are coming to LUST after the flesh. Remember: Paul's word for authority was AUTHENTIA. It means both EROTIC AND MURDEROUS. In the olden times when they didn't have disposable babies they had sex in the temple. The baby could then be DEVOTED to be burned up in Jerusalem at the once "king's music grove." That was authentia. No woman or ambivalent male can stand before the flock without exercising SEXUAL FERTILITY POWER and the elders often "love to have it so. That gave women MUCH authentia or power.

I think that the first table is the individual computers which have connected:

Visits

Total ....................... 64,127
Average per Day ................ 241
Average Visit Length .......... 7:14
This Week .................... 1,686

When they visit they look at more than ONE page.

Page Views

Total ...................... 355,427
Average per Day .............. 1,070
Average per Visit .............. 4.4
This Week .................... 7,493

That means 4.4 pages read per visit.

And it keeps growing. Not to worry about agreement: most of us cannot even remember the TITLE of the sermon after we shake hands with the preacher. Know why? It is because even modern harmony cracks the brain and makes rational (spiritual) worship impossible.

We need Donnie's take on these numbers.

Ken

OK, really... Mr. Sublett-

Lucifer is not biblical or anything else.. KJV translators messed that up and made a huge mistake.

Maybe you need to study your facts before you use words.

True, Lucifer is Latin.

But then, neither is the Word Synagogue in the Bible. Nor is the word "singing" or "melody" or "worship."

Neither is the word love, faith and charity.

But the word is:

Heylel (h1966) hay-lale'; from 1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning-star: - lucifer.

If you had to translate it what word would you have used? If the worst guy you knew was Jimmy then you would call Satan "Jimmy."

Planets were personified as "gods" and God turned the Israelites OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST because of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. The FALSE morning star is VENUS or ZOE in Gnosticism.

And SHE/HE was in the garden of Eden along with her wind, string and percussion instruments. And SHE/He as personified LIGHT or SOUND. It is a word derived from the HALAL type of "making self vile" musical praise:

Halal (h1984) haw-lal'; a prim. root; to be clear (orig. of sound, but usually of color); to shine; hence to make a show, to boast; and thus to be (clamorously) foolish; to rave; causat. to celebrate; also to stultify: - (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make fool (- ish, -ly), glory, give [light], be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, SING, be worthy of] praise, rage, renowned, shine.

Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to PROFANE (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the FLUTE): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, PLAYER on instruments, POLLUTE, (cast as) profane (self), PROSTITUTE, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.

Lucifer or Zoe was the feminist superior to Logos but they are FALSE versions of the MASCULINE God. The True Morning Star is Jesus. Sophia is identified in ancient but modern musical worship as "the serpent." Zoe (Lucifer) was identified as the BEAST and "the female instructing principle." The scholarly world has accepted the word LUCIFER.

"In the Greek New Testament, the term rendered day star in English is phosphoros (in 2 Pet. 1:19) in relation to Christ in the KJV but rendered as morning star in the RSV. Both versions avoid the real sense which is light bringer as Phosphoros. Lucifer is the Latin translation of this word.

This Is Appendix 130 From The Companion Bible.

1. phos = light (underived and absolute); the opposite of darkness. Used therefore specially of God (John 1:4, 5; 8:12. 1John 1:5, etc.).

2. phoster = a light, or light-giver, used of star light, and light holders or bearers. (Compare Genesis 1:14, 16).

3. photismos = a lighting, illumination, shining.


--2 Peter 1:17 For he received from God the FATHER honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved SON, in whom I am well pleased.

---2 Peter 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

----2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the DAY STAR arise in your hearts:

The FALSE savior is identified as the king/queen of Tyre: the harp playing prostitute. She was cast out of heaven along with her God-rejecting angels. She was in the garden of Eden as a MUSICAL ENCHANTER. Paul said that Eve was wholly seduced in the sense that a virgin is seduced before the wedding night. Therefore, Cain (from a musical note) is said to be OF THAT WICKED ONE. His descendants helped pollute the world with performing arts and warfare.

There is "NO OTHER TRADITION" but that music and instruments were given by demons or demi-gods to keep the people's minds off the LIVING WORD and the WRITTEN WORD.

Works, doesn't it.

Ken

Chris,

I'll put my name here as one who has read this site. You can count me among the missing from now forward. The reason I came here to begin with about 18 months ago was because they made snide remarks about me and even included me in their book. I tried to reach out to study and reconcile, but was met with rejection at every turn. If you wonder about the particulars ask brother Cruz.

There is no interest here to reach the lost and hurting with Christ. Time here is time spent poorly. At least there are other sites in cyberspace where one can meet people with different beliefs, and still be respected while studying or debating.

Count me among the faithful of those reaching out to the lost. Pray for success in Laredo, TX on Friday June 6, 2003. I believe God is going to open the border to free movement of charity freight, while the walls between denominations are removed. Jesus will be lifted up while the community will be served.

blessings
chuck
<")))><

I do read this site with sadness a few times per week, Chris, so that I know what and who to pray for. The venom some folks here have toward the "other side" scares me, and makes me realize all the more what a stranglehold that Satan can have on our brotherhood.

There are those here who would rather label their "opponents" than actually discuss issues. Pride gets in the way, since the holders of both views are completely convinced they are correct. There is also a huge amount of distrust on both sides, making the arguments sometimes personal and without true content.

Still praying,
Estill

Estill:

I am very worried about you. It appears that you will still be praying for a long, long time! Wake up, dear brother! “Saddleback” and “charismatic” and “Community Church” and “contemporary” and “change agents” are NOT in these people’s vocabulary: Barton Stone, the Campbells, Lipscomb, Harding, and many others. Instead, these are REAL NAMES and LABELS that folks associated with them have created for THEMSELVES. No, Estill, no! Can you name one NEW doctrine that ConcernedMembers is teaching? I’m sorry, but you’re accusing the wrong group.

Donnie

Titus 3:5-11

...Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Estill:

I sense that you still have one principle of the Restoration Movement left in you. That is a very good sign! A positive sign from someone who is experiencing a church identity crisis! I’m saying, “church identity crisis” because you seem to be torn between siding with our “church forefathers” (Barton Stone, the Campbells, etc.) and the post-modern, charismatic-influenced “Restoration” antagonists (Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly, Don Finto, Jeff Walling, Joe Beam, etc.).

Estill, are you aware that the latter list of names now have no regard and respect for those men who wanted nothing else but the restoration of the New Testament church? These modern and post-modern men actively in the role of change agents operating in churches of Christ now oppose statements, such as: “We speak where the Bible speaks and remain silent where the Bible is silent.”

Perhaps, you have some association with these men who are desperately trying to IMPROVE UPON GOD’S WILL FOR THE CHURCH. Would you contact them and REMIND them of what you just said: “LET THE BIBLE SPEAK!” (You did a great job quoting Titus 3:5-11 from the King James Version of 1611. Not a word missing. Not a period missing!)

Donnie Cruz

The process of correction of others' perception of the truth:

2 Timothy 2:23-26

But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be GENTLE unto all men, apt to teach, PATIENT, in MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Which of those words would you not defend?

Of these things put them in remembrance (words, words),
---charging (to attest or protest earnestly) them before the Lord
---that they strive (trifle) not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 2 Tim 2:14

THE PUNCH LINE IS "SUBVERTING THE HEARERS." Do you not think that teaching that SOME have the holy Spirit PERSON guiding them INSTEAD of the word is SUBVERTING or using psychological violance on people."

Do you think that RETREATING beyond the CROSS and adopting the Levitical sacrifical music (always called NOISE) which was to SLAUGHTER tens of thousands of types of Lord Jesus Christ is subverting? Does it matter that not in the VILEST PAGAN TEMPLE (as we HAVE KNOWLEDGE) did the SINGERS evern enter into the Holy Place as a type of the church of Christ or His Body? Does teaching TITHING and promising returns from your "SEED MONEY" and curses if you DO NOT subverting. Apparently there is no long range PROFIT among people who are SACRIFICIAL GIVERS if they are NOT part of the FAMILY.

If we take the words of Jesus which He defined as Spirit and Life and make them something different or not important we are trifling with His Words.

No profit is like sexual intercourse as an occupation:

--Chresimos (g5539) khray'-see-mos; from 5540; serviceable: - profit.

--Chresis (g5540) khray'-sis; from 5530; employment, i.e. (spec.) sexual intercourse (as an occupation of the body): - use.

Subverting words are progressive words going beyond what is written:

--Datastrophe (g2692) kat-as-trof-ay'; from 2690 an overturn ("catastrophe"), i.e. demolition; fig. apostasy: - overthrow, subverting.

Why would teaching that the Bible has NOTHING positive to say about "music" which comes from YOUTHFUL LUST promote APOSTASY? Why would teaching that the Bible UNIVERSALLLY associates the MUSIC word with Satan overthrow anything but the COLLECTION PLATES (called "trumpets" in the temple)? Who has created the CATASTROHE in the church but the Jubilators? Who has preached that we need to DESTROY the old "wineskin" so it can ACCOMODATE to the "still fermenting" gospel and kingdom? Who has suggested the Aztec pattern of periodically BURNING DOWN the church in a DEMOLITION DERBY so you can "BUILD ON THE ASHES" as Hegel suggests?

THE HOLINESS OF SIN

Jubilee was shooting for the Pope's Jubilee y2K for the coming of the 'now but not yet kingdom.' Catholics were lusting for MARY to come and destroy all of the MASONS and PAGANS. Jubilee was lusting to destroy the 2,000 year old Biblical practice of singing for teaching. The ZOE complex is trying to restore LUCIFER (Zoe) riding on the back of ASLAN (the lion of the tribe of Judah) back into the female goddesses mounting the "Jehovah" they created to praise SOPHIA AND ZOE with musical "worship teams." Who did that??

History knows that all people with a MESSIANIC COMPLEX (claiming to be apostles, christs etc.) fall under their OWN CHARISMA and promote the HOLINESS OF SIN. The way to DESTROY the old "rotten and destructive" church of Christ (Second Incarnation) is to rub the sin of dominant women or the effeminate, music, destruction of baptism and practicing "the holy theatrical arts" which came, in a religious sense, from Satan.

Therefore, it is not wrangling to QUOTE the context of the proof-text:

--Flee also youthful LUSTS: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 2 Timothy 2:22

Lust is: Epithumia (g1939) ep-ee-thoo-mee'-ah; from 1937; a longing (espec. for what is FORBIDDEN): - concupiscence, desire, lust (after) MUSIC has always created LUST and never spirituality.

----But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 2 Timothy 2:23

----And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient; 2 Timothy 2:24

The Willow Creek (Saddleback) plan using musicians as IDOLS warnes that

-------"The cost of this approach is hard work and loads of STRIFE with church insiders." Christianity Today

How can you deny that the CHANGERS deliberately create STRIFE or SOW DISCORD and their TEXT comes from Hegel, Jung, Machiavelli and Hitler.

----In meekness instructing those that oppose THEMSELVES; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Timothy 2:25

I THINK THAT THEY ARE NOT PART OF THE BODY OPPOSING THEMSELVES BUT "INFILTRATERS AND DIVERTERS" OPPOSING THE TRUE OWNERS OF THE CHURCH PROPERTY.

----And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. 2 Timothy 2:26

There is THE DEVIL and those SNARED by the Devil. Jesus said that the sons of the devil SPEAK ON THEIR OWN while He as "Son" spoke only what came from heaven. The Devil's "carnal weapon" from the beginning was MUSIC.

This does not apply to those who have declared that the "Bible has been sifted by philosophy and the Bible writer's personal agenda" and the only thing which can be WRANGLED about is the "7 facts about the man Jesus."

Ken Sublett

1 Timothy 6:3-5

...If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, EVIL SURMISINGS, PERVERSE DISPUTINGS of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, SUPPOSING THAT GAIN IS GODLINESS: from such WITHDRAW THYSELF.

(all caps are my emphasis-EB)

Estill:

Let me add the following scriptural references that prominent “change agents” must be reminded of again and again. Some of the change advocates who are actively recruiting to TRANSFORM CHURCHES OF CHRIST are: Max Lucado, Rubel Shelly of Woodmont Hills Family of God, Don Finto of [the now Pentecostal] Belmont Church, Joe Beam, Larry Sullivan of the Strauss Institute, Jeff Walling, etc.)

The apostle Paul had this to say: “[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be CORRUPTED from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ. [4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive ANOTHER SPIRIT, which ye have not received, or ANOTHER GOSPEL, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him. [5] For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles. [6] But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.” (II Corinthians 11, KJV)

“[6] I marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM him that called you into the grace of Christ unto ANOTHER GOSPEL: [7] Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would PERVERT the GOSPEL of Christ. [8] But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. [9] As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any OTHER GOSPEL unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1, KJV)

[EMPHASIS mine: Donnie Cruz)

I spend about $120.00 a month to spread the GOSPEL that the NEW STYLE WORSHIP is the hardest, most pagan, superstitious LEGALISM known to mankind.

Furthermore,I work my beat about 10-12 hours a day.

And the writers and performers of the songs "SEE GODLINESS AS A MEANS OF FINANCIAL GAIN."

Donnie makes his own living in accordance with the DIRECT COMMANDS of Peter and is a vocational minister.

Why don't you be consistent and FIRE the unlawful preachers who preach legalism (tithing) and musical "ministers" performing like Masters. They are the ones to be censured. I just know of no exception to the rule that when you allow people to RULE OVER YOU they will turn and rend you and hold you in contempt. Anyone has to HATE you before they can hold themselves as having an ounce of COMMAND AUTHORITY. According to Jesus this would be grounds for both firing them and excluding them.

Ken

Galatians 5:22-6:3

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, LONGSUFFERING, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of VAIN GLORY, PROVOKING ONE ANOTHER, envying one another. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, RESTORE such an one in the spirit of MEEKNESS; considering thyself, lest thou ALSO be TEMPTED. Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ. For if a man THINK himself to be SOMETHING, when he is NOTHING, he DECEIVETH himself.

(all caps, emphasis mine--EB)

Galatians:

5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Paul NEVER contrasts the HOLY SPIRIT and flesh. The spirit of God is the MIND of Christ (1 Cor 2). Our spirit is our mind. If your CHILDREN PLAYING MUSICAL GAMES are performing it is IMPOSSIBLE for any persons SPIRIT OR MIND to worship God in THAT human Spirit.

Jesus and Paul said that God only seeks those who can worship in the human spirit as it GIVES HEED (a unique worship word to Paul) to God's Spirit in the Word.

It is devotion to a FALSE CHRIST (there are many) that allows people to get DECEIVED that they should not REPUDIATE FALSE TEACHING. An elder has ONE duty: "To teach that which has been taugh" and to "rebuke those who oppose it." Wake up, little susie.

5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other; so that ye cannot do the things that ye would

5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Led by the SPIRIT is to be led by the Spirit Word of Jesus who said "my WORDS are SPIRIT AND LIFE" and Peter said that the Spirit of Christ was the Spirit breathing on the prophets.

Tithing and CHRIST SACRIFICING MUSIC means that you are under the LAW and on the wrong side of the cross. I rebuke that and it is PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE instilled by the Word rejecters to try to silence those while YOUR TEAM is very vocal calling non-instrumental brother killers and like fire bombers or asaulters of women wearing furs. Just forget it: it won't work.

5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

MANY of these can and have been associated with trying to worship a SPIRIT God with the perverted sexuality associated with MUSIC in the Bible and in ALL secular history I am aware of.

Only HATERS of GOD and MAN could lie about music being WORSHIP. Paul's use of MELODY is proven by Paul and by Greek references (which we can supply) to be EXPLAINED as singing WITH GRACE in your heart. A melodious walk is a graceful walk. Paul defined singing as a TEACHING THE BIBLE effort which was THE preaching to one another in the early churches.

Music came with Satan (Lucifer, Zoe) when he seduced the fallen angels and music is the MARK of the end time Babylon Whore of Revelation 18.

There is no more damning assualt and hate imposed on the church than your MUSIC which is perverted religion. The Jews AFFLICTED Jesus with singing (taunting) with instruments.

YOU are defending the HATERS who are only effective if they can HURT YOU REAL GOOD. You are defending the JUDGERS where judging means the power to PUNISH you.

You need to decide this day wheter you will serve or GIVE HEED to Jesus through His word (in spirit) or GIVE HEED (worship) the theatrical performers and charismatic singers calling attention ONLY to himself or selves.

Psychologicl violent judging won't work.

Ken

Brother Sonn,

Here are the particulars so that readers will wonder no more:

It is true that Chuck and others have tried to “reach out to study and reconcile” with me. In response to them, I have explained numerous times that one-on-one meetings to discuss issues would be time and effort wasted: (a) in that two opposing individuals are NOT LIKELY TO EVER AGREE; (b) in that the AUDIENCE IS LIMITED, in which case website readers do not get a chance to benefit from the study; (c) in that the ISSUES are about change SCHEMES that affect churches of Christ on a broad scale –- NOT only the Madison Church; (d) in that the question if Chuck and little Donnie can honestly be expected to resolve SPECIFIC issues of and for the Madison congregation!!! (Like … who are we, Chuck? It is all in the hands of the ELDERS and other LEADERS of Madison!!!)

Chuck, it’s never my intention to meet anyone “with rejection at every turn.” I simply think that time and effort would be more wisely and efficiently expended, if serious study and discussion were done via the internet and the printing press.

May you be successful: (1) in all your efforts to meet people with different beliefs and practices, including the Roman Catholics, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.; (2) in your attempt to remove “the walls” separating [hundreds of] denominations; and (3) in serving the “community” of churches around us and in the world!

Donnie Cruz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Count on me.

Gen 18:32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for tens sake.

But, Lo, it was destroyed.

OOOOOOOOOOO. Veddy Scaddy!!! You have what now, 4-5 people that have "weighed in" with their support for this site? Man, you guys are really FULL of support! Let's get to the REAL truth about this site:

Most, like me, come to this site for a LAUGH! Your lives must be incredibly miserable to seriously believe all of the HOGWASH you are spouting here. It is so deep sometimes, I have to get my WADERS out just to keep from getting the Sheepdip on my shoes!

It is quite funny I must say.

JD

Oh, counting over 500 for today or more! About the same CHURCH ratio of (1) teachers, (2) congregation and (3) DERIDERS or "hypocritical MOCKERS in feast: they gnashed at me with Teeth."

A MOCKER, usually singing antiphonally back and forth as they did to MOCK Jesus:

Laeg (h3934) law-ayg'; from 3932; a BUFFOON; also a foreigner: - mocker, stammering.

Paul quoted Isaiah to prove the singers and speakers were just buffoons:

Isa 28:8 For all tables are full of vomit (CLAPPING is defined as VOMIT) and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are WEANED from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. [maybe, some day!]

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Is.28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

Isaiah 28:12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they WOULD NOT hear.

Isaiah 28:13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be BROKEN, and SNARED, and TAKEN.

Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the WORD of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. [Physical Jerusalem is identified as SODOM]

Isa 28:21 For the Lord shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.

Isa 28:22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord God of hosts a CONSUMPTION, even determined upon the whole earth. [E Tu Brute! Carnal weapons is the same as a lifeless instrument]

Music has been defined as LOW LEVEL GLOSSOLAIA and Paul compared the voice of speaking in tongues to the instruments of warfare.

Eze.36:4 Therefore, ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys, to the desolate wastes, and to the CITIES that are forsaken,
----which became a prey and DERISION to the residue of the HEATHEN that are round about;

A modern mega-church with tithing (taxing) dominant leaders and STATE MUSICIANS defines the old city-state. Can you hear the derision lost city state?

Lu.23:35 And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them DERIDED him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Lu.16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, HEARD all these things: and they DERIDED him.

Baptism has not been removed: too bad, too sad. Why don't you pull out some of the apostate preacher's pagan baptism stuff and we will tell you why 1525 is too late to be Christian baptism.

Ken

I think your question is answered rather eloquently in the polling data...you really are not having an effect. Look at the number 1 issue - worship - IT'S DEAD EVEN THERE!!!!

I see that the baptism question has been eliminated...so "sorry" to see that. The totals on that one were even more skewed.

See ya later "supporters"!

jd

JD:

The REAL TRUTH is that both high-level issues regarding (1) BAPTISM and (2) WORSHIP [HOLY ENTERTAINMENT] have been and are being sabotaged continually. Before the church of Christ antagonists discovered the “SABOTAGE FACTOR,” the ratio had been around 92:8 for BAPTISM and 88:12 against HOLY ENTERTAINMENT!!! The scripture antagonists are the poll skewers!

Donnie

The first response was perhaps the best. I hope that we realize that this site is not dead, but has a great impact. There are hurtful feelings, but why shouldn't there be. One side is hurting the feelings of some individuals, while the other is hurting the side of God in the mind of the first group.

There is nothing wrong with reasoning we must and can do it.
Pride is the main problem, and it must be overcome. You see it is not our side verses their side, but is truth verses error.
If you think that I am blowing it out of proportion then maybe that is why their is conflict, because you do not see the gravity of the situation before you.

Keep posting I love the responces.

Thanks
Chris

I check things out on this site a few times a week. What I've experienced twice in the past seven years is exactly what is stated to be going on apparently throughout the brotherhood. Anyone who thinks that slow methodical church takeovers are not occuring has yet to open their eyes, or has been sold a pinto but convinced by the salesman that hey have bought a BMW.

I stumbled onto this site about two hours ago, and have been reading ever since. I feel such pain, to think of all the feelings that have been hurt by comments made in anger. The essentials:

-The church of Christ is one body.
-We believe in God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
-We believe that Jesus came to earth in the form of a human to save our souls from eternal damnation.
-We follow His teachings and the truths in both the Old and New Testaments, as we believe the Bible is the inspired (God-breathed!!!) word of the Lord.
-We follow the Biblical plan of salvation as stated in the New Testament, culminating in baptism for the remission of sins and living our lives as a disciple of the Lord.

Am I missing anything?

Love in Christ,
Moselle

Yes, you may be missing something or lacking in “rightly dividing the word of truth.”

I agree that “the church of Christ is one body”(Romans 12:5; I Cor. 12:12). Christ is the vine and we (members of that body) are the branches. [The branches are NOT the various denominational bodies.] The Father and the Son are ONE (John 10:30) in a “familial” relationship. The Holy Spirit endowed the apostles with miraculous power when the church was being established. Yes, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost are “three that bear record in heaven … and these three are one” (I John 5:7). Yes, “refreshing” or a “clear conscience” is THE GIFT of the Holy Spirit when one becomes a Christian through baptism (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19). Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. The Spirit is truth. “This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.” (I John 5:6). The Holy Spirit operates in the Christian through the word of truth.

I also agree when you said, “We follow the Biblical plan of salvation as stated in the New Testament, culminating in baptism for the remission of sins and living our lives as a disciple of the Lord.” But I have a little problem with your statement in regard to the Old Testament and the New Testament. Since I have already posted in response to Jeremy’s article, “Old vs. New” (June 24 2003, 11:19 PM ) under the “Worship Leader” thread, let me just restate my response here:

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Jeremy:

In Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, there are numerous references to: (1) tithe, (2) tithes or (3) tithing. Why is Madison’s preacher, as some others in other congregations do, too, now teach and preach on “tithing”? I agree with you -- but it’s also common knowledge -- that the Old Testament portion of the Holy Scriptures has not been abolished. I believe you should bring this to Dr. White’s attention that this law or command [of TITHING] is no longer applicable to New Testament Christians.

I’ll make a correction to your statement regarding music. It’s true that MUSIC is mentioned numerous times in the Old Testament. And so is “MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS”! But you need to discover for yourself that in no instances were they ever used in the WORSHIP assembly. The passages are in reference to honoring kings and rulers and, in many instances, to idolatrous worship.

But you must agree with me that the Old Testament is really congruent to the peoples of the world and their practices AT/OF THE TIME, just as the New Testament contains doctrines and beliefs that “New Testament” Christians must adhere to in our time. We must not get the purposes for having both testaments confused. Does it mean we should disavow or disregard the Old Testament? No! No! No! There are principles that are unchanging and consistent in both sections of the Bible. But commands and practices change. Dispensations change. I believe, as the Bible says, that there is merit to learning something about the past … you know … that thing that we call “history.” But that’s the extent of it: HISTORY. It is good to know, for example, that prophecies contained in the Old Testament, have been fulfilled, such as: the coming of our Savior and the establishment of the His church.

Finally, let me just quote to you so that many people will not be confused any longer: “FOR WHATSOEVER THINGS WERE WRITTEN AFORETIME WERE WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.” (Romans 15:4).
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Donnie Cruz

Moselle, I feel your pain as far as to what one can find on this site. There are lots of people hurting out there. I just found out today that a couple at congregation number two that I attended that went through this, was asked to leave by one of the elders. We were all asked to stay about nine months ago and were told that when things got uncomfortable to let the eldership know and things would be worked out. They stayed, others including my family left(Of course I was asked to leave at that time based on my opposition to their plan). When my friends they sent a letter to the elders regarding the fact that they(the elders) had allowed the "praise team" to get too loud and distracting, they were told to find another church.

I have yet to find a biblical example of a shepherd telling a sheep to find another herd, but this practice is alive and well in any church implementing these changes. That tactic is one of the reasons that this site exists.

As stated in an earlier reply, dicernment, testing the spirits, and seeing what fruit a tree bears is a part of the Christian walk also. Unfortunately, lots of times you have to wait a while before a tree will show what fruit it bears. Unfortunately, when it bears that fruit, the roots are too deep.

Steve,

Speaking of the “praise team,” its dominance in the MUSICAL worship program at the Madison Church, among other things, could very well be the main “ROOT” of the church’s problem. When the team did its performance debut at the initial worship concert one Sunday, it came as a big SHOCK to the assembly; amplified voices did not help any. The distracted members weren’t told right then and there “to find another church.” Instead, many of the members left on their “own accord.” Later on, of course, the announcement was made and members were told: “Get over it; we must move on.” How cruel!

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Donnie Cruz

No, you've got it right. The BEGINNING TIME wholly seduction of the FEMALE SIDE began with the the NACHASH or "musical enchanter." She/he was Lucifer called the "harp playing prostitute" as the king/queen of Tyre. He/She in the TYPE went into hell with his/her harps and harpists.

He/she as the Babylon Harlot is specificially identified in Revelation 18 as a SECOND INCARNATION of the END- TIME attack on the church. The ONLY weapon / instrument (same word) or lifeless instruments are not for fun: they are instruments of spiritual warfare.

Satan knows that, so MUSIC has been the first weapon of choice to land the FIRST BLOW. The SWORD of the SPIRIT is the only weapon given by Christ. But the FACILITATORS have spent the last two decades in CUNNING taking away the KEYS TO KNOWLEDGE. Jesus fired them but Paul said: "Fools love to be fooled."

That is why they HATE the Word and anyone who dares SPEAK it after they have been warned that to use the WORD is to sow discord and pass judgement and sow hate. Sure, the Devil is the FATHER OF LIARS. He is Apollo or Abbadon or Apollyon who has RIGHT NOW dug up the LOCUSTS or "musical performers." ISAIAH WARNED about women or children (meaning women and the effeminate) RULING OVER YOU.

Remember: "Don't ask, just DO IT." Hitler didn't ask permission when he used the SAME schemes because he believed that HE HAD A CALL FROM GOD.

If you ask permission you let those BEING INVADED turn and MOUNT A MEAN-SPIRITED ATTACK. Because INDUCED DISCORD or SCHIZOPHRENIA is the first part of the attack in order to make people ACCEPT the PERVERTED as normal, you must first SMACK the "audience" really hard:

--"Of particular interest is the way that early modern playwrights, MUSIC THEORISTS, and THEATER apologists addressed this conflated language of the "ENEMY," by ECHOING the same connections between SEXUALITY and PLAYING found in the most virulent antitheatrical tracts. As this paper will demonstrate, by "PLAYING" with the conflated language, these writers DEFEND their ART,

--"justifying their existence in a society that was both SEDUCED and REPULSED by them. By claiming the polemical antitheatrical language, these players ESCAPED from the ideological MARGINS to which their opponents had tried to relegate them.

--"Using the ARTIFICES of mimesis (imitation) and COMEDY they pointed out and

----"DEFUSED their opponents' ANXIETIES about MUSIC, THEATER, and SEXUALITY, creating a SPACE for PLAYERS in the cultural MAINSTREAM."

One wonders why so many once-Christian colleges, professors, preachers and elders are willing to use PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE to help make a place in the MAINSTREAM where rhetoricians or Sophists were also SOOTHSAYERS and PARASITES.

We noted that PLAYERS were prostitutes and PARASITES. Vocal imitation (MIMESIS) does not fool anyone but the fools that this is SLIPPING in the same effect without totally running off everyone. The music is deliberate sowing of discord, but the PLAYING of SEXUALITY is to FLAUNT perversion and dare you to do anything about it.

--KITHARA the Lat. cithara (whence guitar), a kind of lyre or lute, Hhymn., Hdt., attic: --it was of triangular shape, with seven strings, Eur. Cf. ki^tha^rizô

Latin with similar definitions

--parasi-tor . a-ri, v. dep. [id.] , to play the PARASITE, to SPONGE: parasitarier
--parasitus Phoebi, a player, actor, Mart. 9, 29, 9.-
--one who, by FLATTERY and BUFFOONERY, manages to live at another's expense, a SPONGER, TOAD-eater, parasite Comically, of a whip that he will make his elm-twigs stick to me like parasites, i. e. give me a SOUND FLOGGING, The tutelar deity of parasites was Hercules,

REMEMBER THAT JESUS CAST OUT THE MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM OR MINSTRELS "LIKE ONE CASTS OUT DUNG." THERE IS A LARGE BODY OF LITERATURE TO BACK THIS UP:

Aristotle, Athenian Constitution

L. These then are the matters administered by the Council. Also ten men are elected by lot as Restorers of Temples, who draw 30 minae1 from the Receivers and repair the temples that most require it; and TEN CITY Controllers, [2]

--{five of whom hold office in Peiraeus (REPLICATE city) and five in the city;

--"it is they who SUPERVIZE the FLUTE-girls and HARP-girls and LYRE-girls to prevent their receiving fees of more than two drachmas,

--"and if several persons want to take the SAME GIRL these officials cast lots between them and hire her out to the winner.

--"And they keep watch to prevent any scavenger from DEPOSITING ODURE (dung) within a mile and a quarter of the wall;

--"and they prevent the construction of buildings encroaching on and balconies overhanging the roads, of overhead conduits with an overflow into the road, and of windows opening outward on to the road;

--"and they remove for BURIAL the bodies of persons who DIE on the roads, having public slaves for this service.

Aristot. Ath. Pol. 7.3. A drachma (say 9 1/2d. or 1 franc) was a hundredth part of a mina (say 4 pounds.)

Don't forget that the band of ten has the PREDESTINED ROLE to "wear out the saints." One of the ways to do this is to MAKE MUSIC which as EXTERNAL MELODY speaks of WARFARE or the MAGICAL- SEXUAL activities of the world. About the time ONE ATTACK has been repulsed they have a dozen others up their sleeves. Jack Reese at ACU Lectures 2003 was to introduce TAIZE worship which is a Folkish or Volkish movement to reject the churches.

http://www.piney.com/ACU-Lecture-2003.html

John Mark Hicks was to speak on the kingdom in the sense that MILITARISTS or para-church groups such as Willow Creek or Saddleback COMES TO GOD'S aid and gets the kingdom ready for Christ before He is ABLE to return. You can literally smell dominant FEMALES pulling the strings.

Ken Sublett