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Archives 2
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THE ORIGINAL QUESTION CAME FROM THE POST: “SCRIPTURE FOR WORSHIP” ON AUGUST 9, 2003 (7:54 P.M.):
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Could you show me one scripture that states that in the assembly of the saints on earth is a "worship" service?
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In my initial response, I stated: “I really appreciate you asking this great and brilliantly-worded question.” I followed that with an admission: “I’m afraid that there may not be any passage to quote; let’s see….” I went on to say:
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[[[There is {growing} evidence that WORSHIP has been sadly misinterpreted, misunderstood, and misdirected to the point that there has arisen a number of issues related to the office of WORSHIP LEADER, handclapping, musical instruments, the use of the services of the worship leader’s PRAISE TEAM, solo performances, humming, the complexity of MUSIC itself and its role in the “assembly” for “worship service”—along with many other issues.

We often forget the true meaning of worship, or wonder if there is even such a thing as “corporate worship” that the Change Movement and its agents would have us term it. Praise and worship, although related in terms of our relationship with the Father, are two different forms of offerings. I believe that in both cases, it is really a personal, an individual expression of both thanksgiving and honoring in reverence to our Father in heaven. Obviously, no one else is responsible for an individual’s praise and … worship. The Worship Leader or his musicians are obviously not responsible for an individual member’s worship of God.

There is a command to worship and there is the form of worship expressed in John 4:23,24—“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” That is the only style of worship prescribed for the worshipper (if one may call it a “style”). Even this passage doesn’t speak of an “assembly of the saints” being in a “worship service”….

Prior to the establishment of the church, the synagogue (defined as a Bible school assembly) was a gathering that was “conducted in an informal setting, with lay people leading out in prayer, reading, singing and exhortation.” It appears that the assembly in the early New Testament church maintained that similarity in the nature and purpose of the gathering, the only fundamental difference being the “messianic proclamation” (understandably so), which was absent in the synagogue. [There was on the first day of the week] the “breaking of the bread” [or the Lord’s Supper], according to Acts 20:7, as well as the preaching and teaching in the assembly, as illustrated in the same passage. This simply means that the “assembly of the saints” in the early church was geared towards being that of a Bible school with the emphasis on its content being “Word-centered.”

How did the “Word-centered” assembly of the early church become a “MUSICAL WORSHIP” performance-driven service in this postmodern era? ...
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HERE’S A RESPONSE RECEIVED THROUGH AN EMAILTO ME:
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[T]here really is no scripture that uses the word "worship" in connection to the assembling of the Christians in the New Testament. … [A]fter reading some of your website, I was incensed at the methods you are using to try and control a church. But … you may be right. There may be some true "change agents" who want change for change's sake. There certainly were those kinds of people who infiltrated the ranks of the early church - those with an agenda. Also, I do believe that there is way too much singing and too much emphasis put on singing lately . . . But I honestly don't think that it's a salvation issue - especially so when you consider that the assembly is NOT supposed to be a "worship service" but an "edification service" instead. Do you see the importance of that fact? If the assembling of Christians "at church" is not supposed to be worship (although worship may occur) then what we do there may not be under the close scrutiny by God as much as we have often thought it was. Actually, I believe that the verse you cited in John, as well as Romans 12: 1- 3 (or so), explains the true definition of worship. It is a DAILY, MINUTE BY MINUTE attitude of reverence, gratitude, and personal exaltation that springs from the heart of man toward God and is reflected in the man's relationship to those around him. The Christian gets together with other Christians on a regular basis to edify and confirm his conviction in God and to support the others there in their own attempts to remain faithful….
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DONNIE’S ANSWERS TO THE RESPONDENT ABOVE—WHO PREFERS TO REMAIN UNIDENTIFIED:
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… I find your letter [above] as sincere, honest, sensible and scriptural. You are exactly right in saying that musical worship is overemphasized today, and too much focus is being given to it at the expense of the learning of scriptures being downgraded or de-emphasized—the reason why I keep bringing it up.

… I was in the 10:30am assembly at Madison one Sunday and suddenly this musical partying began which really shocked me and many others. (I think you know what I mean.) Not many realized then but rather underestimated the impact … that it would bring division in a congregation or cause many members to leave. Surely, this was not to happen at Madison—a leading congregation of the church of Christ in the world. (I didn’t know about the Concerned Members website till much later—came across it via the net. Trust me—I do not own the website.) But I am so disappointed in church leaders who allow these things to happen to congregations….

… I hope to be able to … reinforce what the Scripture already says about an individual Christian’s worship to God. I just have the feeling that more and more of the members of the church are led to believe that worship does not occur until they meet for the “corporate” [?] musical gathering. Perhaps, I’m failing to get my point and message across, as you and I agree, that assembly of the saints is not about being in a “worship” service. I see MUSICAL WORSHIP in the church as a “charismatic” invention or imitation, and the strong emphasis on it is splitting congregations of the church. Personally, I do not even see singing as a command, although it can occur as a means of letting “the word of Christ” dwell in us. And this goes along with what you’re saying that there’s been “too much emphasis put on singing lately.” I might even go further as to say that there’s been “too much emphasis put on MUSICAL WORSHIP lately” … since MUSIC involves extraneous activities in addition to singing.

I agree with you that many issues that confront the church are “not salvation” issues—in and of themselves, perhaps. But when they cause conflict, division, alienation, I believe it is the church leaders’ responsibility to be in charge and stand for the truth and take care of the flock.

Donnie Cruz
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WHILE I CAN’T PROMISE THAT THE ABOVE CORRESPONDENCE WILL CONTINUE:
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Let me aver that the respondent above made this statement with confidence: “There really is no scripture that uses the word WORSHIP in connection to the assembling of the Christians in the New Testament.” There is NONE.

Perhaps, I need further explanation of the statement: “After reading some of your website, I was incensed at the methods you are using to try and control a church.” My response to this is that Donnie Cruz or this website is not trying to “control a church.” The truth is that the elders are the ones who exercise this power to control a congregation—an advantage that they have as “shepherds of the flock”—whether it is based on God’s direction or it is done without scriptural authorization. If control is not exercised by the eldership, then it is exercised by other types of leaders who have great influences upon the elders.

I agree with the rest of the comments stated accurately and scripturally in the email.

Finally, which is more important: (1) for the elders [the scriptural form of leadership] to really take care of the flock by preserving peace and unity; or (2) for the elders to continue to allow the [other] culture-designated form of leadership that provides “holy” fun and musical entertainment in the name of “praise”?
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Donnie Cruz

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IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM THE MADISON MARCHER (AUGUST 13, 2003)
PREACHER POTPOURRI (BY DR. C. BRUCE WHITE)
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The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited….

We are blessed each week with an inspirational and uplifting worship service. The measure of that level is involvement. Join in the singing and connect your spirit with His. It will make a difference….
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QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS RE: THE NEW VISION AND MUSICAL WORSHIP
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[] Is the new vision for Madison a direct result of the upheaval that occurred in the recent past?
[] Does the new vision include the transition of the 8:00 service to a “contemporary” style also?
[] Is the 10:30 assembly going to revert its “style” of worship from the “contemporary”?
[] Is the 10:30 assembly changing its “musical worship” programming to congregational singing?
[] Is the hierarchical form of leadership the new form of church organization?
[] Is the eldership going to re-study Madison’s past and re-activate plans that made it great?
[] Is the eldership to listen to more of the change agents’ agenda and schemes for this body?
[] Is the eldership going to do whatever it takes to bring those that have left back to fellowship?
[] While the elders are listening for awhile and suggestions are made, will they ensure that these are in accordance with God’s will and that further division is prevented?
[] What does this really mean: “… and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church”?
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[] Isn’t the “musical worship” programming in concert format entertaining and fun—making the worship service inspirational and uplifting?
[] Does it mean that less MUSIC, but more of the Word-centered emphasis and focus, will make the “worship service” less inspiring and uplifting?
[] Does “joining in the singing” imply that there is now less congregational singing because the Worship Leader’s Praise Team, the solo performances and duets, the humming and clapping have taken over and dominated the “musical worship”?
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THE WORSHIP LEADER’S CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL/CONCERT ON AUGUST 17, 2003
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--- Jesus Will Fix It (**Sheet music available at the door) ----------- Keith Lancaster
--- Deep Calls to Deep
--- Get Right Church
--- Hosanna!
--- I Will Bless the Lord at All Times (Praise & Worship, #25)
--- There is a Redeemer
--- Blue Skies and Rainbows (Praise for the Lord, #851)
--- How Excellent Is Thy Name
--- On Bended Knee (P&W #6)
--- Freely, Freely (#852)
--- We Will Stand (*in red notebook)
--- --- (Solo by Kevin Dunnebacke; 4-part Praise Team accompanying with “ooh—“)
--- --- Sometimes it’s hard for [Ooh----------------]
--- --- me to understand why we [ooh----------------]
--- --- pull away from each other so easi- [ooh--------------]
--- --- ly even though we’re all [ooh---------------]
--- --- walking the same road yet we [ooh--------------]
--- --- build dividing walls between our [ooh----------------]
--- --- brothers and our- [ooh--------------] selves, but I, … [ooh---------------]
--- --- (Solo stops)
--- --- You’re my brother, you’re my sister, so take me by the hand.
--- --- Together we will work until He comes.
--- --- There’s no foe that can defeat us when we’re walking side by side.
--- --- As long as there is love we will stand.
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THE WORSHIP LEADER’S CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL/CONCERT ON AUGUST 24, 2003
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--- Agnus Dei ------------------------------------------- Keith Lancaster
--- I Love the Lord Messiah (clap, clap, clap)
--- Sing Amen, Amen (clap, clap, clap)
--- Great Is the Lord Almighty [*sheet music for this song in red notebook] (clap)
--- O What a Glorious God (action song—plus clap, clap, clap)
--- Worship the Lord with Gladness (clap, clap, clap)
--- My Life Is In Your, Lord (*song in red notebook)
--- --- My [clap] life is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- My [clap] hope is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- My [clap] strength is [clap] in You [clap], Lord [clap],
--- --- I will [clap] praise [clap] You [clap] with [clap] …
--- --- [W.L. motions the crowd to clap after song; handclapping folks imitate]
--- He Paid a Debt (Praise for the Lord, #859)
--- Lord, Be There (Praise & Worship, #46)
--- When I Survey the Wondrous Cross (#742)
--- Have You Seen Jesus My Lord?
--- Shout to the North (**sheet music available at the door)
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THE “CHURCH OF CHRIST” DOING THE CHARISMATIC IMITATION IN MUSICAL WORSHIP
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There has been an extensive discussion of the music piece “Agnus Dei” as listed above. (cf. article: NO “Agnus Dei” SACRAMENTAL IN THE EARLY CHURCH [June 12 2003 at 1:06 PM] and other posts in the preceding thread, “What Happened This Week at Madison” [Archive #5].) Strangely, no one was clapping to “Shout to the North.” Know why? It was a new song that the Praise Team performed to the assembly—the noisemakers had not yet learned their programmed, rhythmical clapping to this jazzy song.

Please don’t be misled by most of the titles of the music pieces being performed at this contemporary assembly. Right—they may not be salvation issues, but what has happened to the worship of the Father “in spirit and in truth”? Reverence?!? Some of these songs do not convey the message of salvation. The way many of these songs are sung and with the exception of the occasional references to the spiritual, they RESEMBLE such songs as: “Yankee Doodle keep it up, Yankee Doodle Dandy, mind the music and the step….” Or, “For he’s a jolly good fellow … which nobody can deny.” Or, “And o’er the fields we go, laughing all the way. The bells on Bobtail ring, they’re making spirits bright, what fun it is to ride and sing a sleighing song tonight! Jingle bells! Jingle Bells! Jingle all the way!” Is it really necessary to clap to songs such as: “I Love the Lord Messiah” or “Great Is the Lord Almighty” or “O What a Glorious God” or “Worship the Lord with Gladness”?

What about real congregational singing? With the drama stage removed, the WORSHIP LEADER is still doing his own dramatic performances on stage. How much more attention does he really want and deserve from the audience? Brother Keith Lancaster, everyone knows about your very special musical talent. There is no need for you to prove anything anymore, dear brother. Frankly, you are (perhaps unknowingly) trying to share with and/or taking away the honor and glory that only our Father in heaven deserves. Let the congregation do the real singing again—not by or through your Praise Team, your soloist, your duet performers, your supporting hand clappers, your [wordless] humming or whatever else you’re doing on stage. Please don’t even initiate the handclapping activity or the applauding after a song by doing it yourself on stage or encourage this useless and annoying thing.

I believe we should give more consideration to Dr. White’s sermon on August 17, 2003 titled, “What Would It Take for You to Believe?” He said: “… We need to look at the evidence. I am afraid that too much of our religion has become so emotional, so feeling-oriented that we’ve lost the sense that God is real. And as a real God can be evidence … belief is substantiated not by some small, still voice in the night or some feeling I have in a moment, but by the same kind of evidence that supports the fact that this building stands because it’s built out of steel and brick….”
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Donnie Cruz

Re: Were They Singing “Yankee Doodle Dandy” and “Jingle Bells”? August 29 2003, 6:18 AM

Please bookmark this segment of the “What Happened” thread. If you are a member of a congregation that is in disarray or experiencing confusion, division, change hysteria, etc.—please bring this to the attention of your leaders and gospel ministers. Coming soon is an article that will present additional soul-searching questions to church plans (such as the “new vision for Madison”), as well as ideas that will challenge where the true focus should be in the misdirected, misguided and misleading MUSIC-driven “worship programming” of the postmodern “gathering of the saints.” [“Where’s the beef?” … at the school of the Bible?]

Donnie Cruz

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QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS RE: THE NEW VISION AND MUSICAL WORSHIP
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It was earlier quoted that: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited….

“We are blessed each week with an inspirational and uplifting worship service. The measure of that level is involvement. Join in the singing and connect your spirit with His. It will make a difference….”

A list of questions was presented following the quote. Those few questions were intended to bring awareness on the part of those being listened to and of those listening that the Madison church, as well as other congregations, is not over the hump by any means. It appears that, while quiet and union seem to be prevailing, there is NO UNITY IN DIVERSITY. Just what is going on? In reality, worship “style”—although predominant in scope—is not the only issue churches of Christ are confronted with as they try to SURVIVE amid the schemes of the change agents to subvert the church and pervert the truth. The following article by John H. Waddey presents a bigger picture of the problem confronting certain congregations of the church of our Lord. Please give serious thought to additional questions presented that are pertinent to the “new vision” being formulated for the congregation. Also, please take a look at the survey of favorite hymns and their places in today’s postmodern “MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAMMING.”
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JUST HOW BADLY DO YOU WANT TO SEE CHRIST’S CHURCH SURVIVE?
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The church of our Lord Jesus is under a massive attack throughout the nation. This is no ordinary, run of the mill problem such as we have faced in times past. Not since the great apostasy of the late 1800s have we encountered a problem of this magnitude. After years of quietly infiltrating our schools and congregations, what has come to be known as the “change movement,” has now burst forth in full blossom. At least two of our most prominent schools and dozens of congregations, including many of the largest among us, have already been swept into this new heresy. Under attack is the very nature of the church (Are we truly the Lord’s church or are we just another human organization?); the nature and essence of our worship (Shall we worship with instruments of music and shall our communion be part of a common meal?); the leadership of the church (Shall women be allowed to preach and teach over men?); what constitutes one a Christian (Is baptism an essential aspect of one’s salvation or are we saved by grace through faith alone?); the nature and extent of our fellowship (Should we stand apart from churches founded by men or should we embrace them as Christian brethren?).

It takes no genius to understand that if these ideas finally prevail among our people we will have completely lost our identity and will cease to be in any sense the church of Christ. Clearly the threat is enormous. We know that there are many who want to see the above agenda successfully imposed on all our congregations. Without doubt there are thousands who are appalled at the temerity of those who would hold and teach views so diametrically opposed to the revealed will of God. The question is just how badly do we want to save the church from apostasy? Are we willing to pay the price necessary to accomplish this? Consider the following:

[] Do you care enough to pray fervently everyday that God will protect His church, that He will discomfit those who would harm her, that He will raise up a faithful band of soldiers to defend her walls and lead the way in restoring her to prosperity (II Cor. 11:28)?

[] Do you care enough to invest your time, energy and money in opposing this change movement and in promoting faithfulness to God’s Word? Are you willing to put your hands to the task and work to help salvage those around you (II Cor. 12:15)?

[] Do you care enough to spend time educating and informing yourself and the brethren where worship?

This is especially pertinent for those who preach:

[] Do you care enough to write, preach, teach and talk to every person exhorting them to hold fast the faithful word (II Tim. 4:2)?

[] Do you care enough to speak up and speak out against the false teaching and error when someone promotes it in your presence? Too many sit tongue-tied and mute while others articulate these concepts in Bible classes, sermons or conversations.

[] Do you care enough to work with others in combating the error? One soldier here and one there can easily be overrun, surrounded or driven from his post. But standing together, we become an unmovable force that can block the incursions of the enemies of the faith (Eccl. 4:9-12).

[] Do you care enough to tolerate the imperfections and different approaches of good men who uphold the sound doctrine of Christ; to be patient with varied opinions on lesser matters in order to win the greater victory over the true enemies of the church (Phil. :16-18)?

[] Do you care enough to help reclaim, restore and rebuild those disciples and congregations who have been led astray (Gal. 6:1)?

[] Do you care enough to reject those who are determined to abandon the Bible way (Rom. 16:17-18)? We cannot keep them in our midst and expect to keep the church loyal to the Master’s will.

The way you respond to these questions will reveal just how you really love the church for which Jesus died. I urge you to let your love and loyalty be manifested by your diligent service on behalf of Christ’s church in this hour of crisis. JHW
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FAVORITE HYMNS
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[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Religious columnist, George Plagenz, surveyed his readers as to their favorite hymns. From all kinds of churches and all across the nation, folks chose the following as their favorites:

[] “How Great Thou Art,”
[] “Amazing Grace,”
[] “In the Garden,”
[] “The Old Rugged Cross,”
[] “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God,”
[] “What a Friend We Have in Jesus,”
[] “Holy, Holy, Holy,”
[] “Just as I Am,”
[] “The Church’s One Foundation” and
[] “O Master, Let Me Walk with Thee.”

Plagenz observed that worshipers “prefer music of piety … their favorites tend to be hymns that speak to the emotions about a personal relationship with God or Christ.” They prefer “familiar, singable melodies.” “It is the old-fashioned hymns they want to sing.” Some younger people disparage old hymns and clamor for songs new and different. Some mistake that which is fun for that which is worship. While there is a place for new hymns, we must not neglect the old songs that link us to those who went before us as well as to the God we praise. JHW
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WHAT A MADISON MEMBER’S VISITING RELATIVES IN ATTENDANCE ARE SAYING ABOUT THE CONTEMPORARY WORSHIP. (You would not want to miss this upcoming report of their recent worship experiences and observations.)
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Donnie Cruz

“Do You Want to Worship Here?” was last Sunday’s sermon (August 31, 2003) delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White. One of the key points he made was whether or not the “worship service” is being conducted in such a way that a visitor would feel welcome and want to come back again. Even the issue of handclapping was specifically brought up in the course of the sermon.

In the afternoon following the contemporary worship assembly, I was privileged to visit a friend’s family—all attending Madison regularly. This friend’s sister and her husband, residents of Yuma (Arizona) and/or Tacoma (Washington) have been visiting Tennessee every couple of years since about 1987 and have worshipped at the Madison Church at every opportunity. In my conversation with the guests, the subject of “worship” was brought up and someone commented that the sermon was longer than usual (not complaining here), but substantive in that specific issues were brought up regarding clapping and the Lord’s Supper.

(A little background about the guests: They are members of the Berean Fellowship of Churches. [My research indicates that: “Formation of the Berean Fellowship of Churches dates back to the 1930's. In 1932 in North Platte, NE, a group of people dedicated to the study and application of the truth of the Bible began meeting together on a regular basis … people who were yearning for Bible-based ministries in their own communities began … Bible studies. Soon, groups were meeting in several towns. As those groups grew into churches, a Fellowship of Churches was born in 1947.”] Anyway, these folks have witnessed in their own fellowship the decline in membership because of changes made in their church’s worship programming, e.g., removing the church choir and replacing it with a “Christian rock band”—not quite the same as the drastic changes at Madison.)

The overall impression I got from these guests was that they have observed the obvious differences in the way that worship has been conducted at Madison through the years. It is quite difficult to relate how the conversation went. It wasn’t taped. So, I’m listing the highlights of their observations and experiences related to the contemporary worship period at Madison:

--- “We attend the 10:30 a.m. services at the Madison Church of Christ whenever we visit Tennessee every two or three years. We’ve been doing this since the late 80’s … since about 1987. The last visit prior to this one was in 2001. So, we’re quite familiar with the worship format and attendance—the changes that have gone on. Only a couple of years ago, it was still crowded up in the balcony. More so during the years before that … when we’d be out of breath climbing up the steps to find a place to sit. We remember when Nick Boone was the song leader—a humble person. The Boones [including Nick’s brother, Pat] are really nice folks. Everyone was singing when Nick Boone led those songs. We remember him not holding a microphone or even using one—well, he used a pitch pipe to get the song started. Congregational singing was wonderful.”

--- “It’s sad to see the numbers in worship decline. It’s unfortunate that the changes implemented in worship have a lot to do with this. Comparing what worship was in years past and how it is conducted now is like between night and day. It reminds us of what happened at our own Berean Fellowship in the early 90’s. Of course, we had a choir. The choir was part of our worship program. But also part of our worship was congregational singing. In our situation, the Christian rock band replaced the choir. There were also other changes, but all together our fellowship had not been the same since—many members left.”

--- The wife said, “I can’t believe it—they were singing ‘If you’re happy and you know it, clap your hands [clap! clap!] … stomp your feet [stomp! stomp!]’—that’s a kindergarten song.” [My explanation to her was that this is a children’s song when kids of a certain age group go to Canaan’s Land just prior to the sermon.] “But they had already sung a different ‘Clap Your Hands’ at the beginning of the service. Didn’t those kids already have their Sunday school? Why aren’t they learning to be with the rest of their families to worship together?”

Other comments from our guests regarding the WORSHIP LEADER and the PRAISE TEAM and the overall MUSIC program:

--- “If the hymnals are no longer used, why not give them or donate them to congregations which are in need of them—what a waste!”

--- “We’ve attended Pentecostal services. They do strange things, but at least they’re using the hymnals, so, we know what we’re singing.”

--- “The music director—he might as well be this rock star [sorry, I do not remember the name which the guest mentioned, dc]—there’s no difference between them when it comes to entertaining: it’s for the people, not for the Lord.”

--- “The music director is using the pulpit for his antics. His music leading is a ‘head’ job—not coming from the heart.”

--- “There was a song or two in which the music director did his lead part. It was really confusing as I was looking at the screen for the words he was singing by himself while the choir members were doing their thing—those words weren’t on the screen.”

--- “I noticed those folks clapping and at the same time hitting the back of the seats in front of them, making the drumming-like or some kind of instrument-like noise. It didn’t seem like reverence to me.”

--- “The Praise Team is really a choir—why not use a rock group to help lead singing? When there are practices involved, such as on Wednesday nights or at other times, it means that performance follows.”

--- “Just showing the words on the screen without the notes doesn’t mean a thing to me. Most of the songs today were not in the hymnal. I didn’t know them; I couldn’t sing them. I have a suggestion—karaoke! At least we’d know pretty well the tempo of the song with the ‘bouncing ball’ or as the words or syllables are being shaded.

--- “If congregational singing were to return, Nick Boone should come back. We want Nick Boone back.”

--- “Why not throw the microphones in the 'dunk tank' behind the pulpit so that real congregational singing can be heard—let the Praise Team sing just like everybody else. When there is a microphone, there is performance—without question!”

--- “If it weren’t for our relatives being members of the Madison Church, we wouldn’t be worshipping here: we could easily find somewhere else to worship.”

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Donnie Cruz

I take it the main purpose of this post was to try to convince people that Madison is somehow going to be using musical instruments in the place of the praise team. If not, that's how it came across.

The praise team practices to make sure they have the parts right. Their function is to provide the foundation of the notes for everyone else. Get that through your head. It's not a performance. The praise team is not a choir in the sense you're referring to. The dictionary says that a choir is "an organized company of singers". That's about as close as it gets -- they're organized to provide assistance during songs.

"When there is a microphone, there is a performance". It's an interesting point, especially since Nick Boone did indeed ALWAYS use a microphone. How do I know that? I've worked with the audio department for over 10 years now, so I've even hooked Mr. Boone's microphone up before. But I guess Mr. Boone doesn't count as a "performer" because he was "more reverent" than Mr. Lancaster is... or at least that's what you'd lead me to believe.

And why don't the children sit with their parents during the worship service? How about the scripture that talks about spiritual milk and how those that don't understand shouldn't have it shoved down their throats to make it even less understandable? I guess that doesn't apply here either. They go to their own class during the sermon to have a message delivered to them that they can understand. I only wish I had had something like that when I was younger. I had no idea what Brother Flatt was teaching as I was growing up, and I had a hard time sitting still, much less staying awake. To me, it's a good idea.

The hymnals are still in use; people have gotten so adjusted to the screen that they don't really even open them anymore. The "senior saints" (as you call them) know every word by heart, as well as many younger "saints", so I figure if they need to use the book, they can; if they don't, they just leave it.

I also find it befuddling that the people who claim to know what reverent worship is are the same ones that refer to the baptistry as the "dunk tank". To me, that's one of the worst things you can say. Referring to the pool of water that we claim to wash away sins as a county fair attraction is borderline blasphemous if you ask me. Perhaps these "visitors" should take a better look inside themselves before commenting on the services that they recently attended.

I agree with you annie, "Dunk Tank" is a rather harsh and really kind of a bad way to describe the baptistry.

Maybe if your praise team would "baptize" their microphones before each use, before too long the singing would have be more "from the heart" of the congregation, like it is supposed to be, and not an artificial substitution.

Mr. Bennett--

Sorry for using the "Anonymous" name. I usually let my Google toolbar fill in my information automatically, but I forgot to this time around. I'll take the responsibility of that post.

To Anonymous (September 3 2003, 1:39 AM ):

Your beginning paragraph stated: “I take it the main purpose of this post was to try to convince people that Madison is somehow going to be using musical instruments in the place of the praise team. If not, that's how it came across.” Where did you get this idea? Am I missing something here?

Pardon me, but you remind me of someone else [I know] who has posted articles numerous times before and who never fails to shield the Praise Team (and the USE OF ITS SERVICES) from “harm and danger.” But in case you didn’t know, part of the change agents’ subtle schemes is to give the “appearance” of not deviating too much—that group of singers should be called “Praise Team.” Admit it or not, in reality, the Praise Team is really the “Church of Christ Choir” in a congregation that has it and uses it—and it is a real shame that a supposedly congregation of the New Testament church would resort to such beautiful “sound effects” in order for “worship” to be acceptable to God. Real congregational singing does not need the Praise Team with their microphones performing to and for the assembly. Do you really expect God to listen to and make sure “the parts” are just right and perfect? Do you expect God to condemn a “monotone” singer? In fact, the Praise Team deters congregational singing as noted by the guests. (Going back to what you and I have discussed before, there is less congregational singing with the Praise Team overpowering and dominating. In fact, I failed to mention earlier what the guests had also said that only a few people in the balcony were singing.)

Whether or not Nick Boone used a microphone is not the issue. (Perhaps, the guests couldn’t see Mr. Boone’s “hooked up” microphone—you should be forgiving enough for their sight problem.) No, Mr. Boone’s microphone did not make him a performer. Nor did he use the stage to do his antics—I never had to worry about him falling off the stage, either.

Regarding the children of a particular age going to “Canaan’s Land” rather than being in the assembly with their families … is debatable in terms of what Proverbs 22:6 says—“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” or in terms of what psychologists have to say about a Christian family in a Christian assembly. Isn’t it a matter of Christian principle? By the way, why do you seem to be regretful that it was a missed opportunity for you when you were young … that brother Flatt bored you, that you were expected to understand it all?

The “pool of water” does not “wash away sins”—it is the blood of Christ that does remove sins when a repentant individual is immersed into the water and out to begin a new Christian life. There is nothing sacred about the baptistery. However, I agree with you that it is rather unpleasant to describe it as a “dunk tank.” I don’t think expressing it that way is proof that the guests were critical of or did not believe in the importance of baptism. To me, their key point was “throwing the microphones”—not the baptistery. Perhaps, the visitors were just confounded and upset by the recent changes made to “worship programming.” But, hey, you talk so much about the lack or absence of love as the issue of the day, instead of the change advocacies. Why should you treat the visitors the way you do just because of the comments they made?

Donnie Cruz

I find these visitor's comments extremely offensive. Why did they come to church? From their comments, it was not to worship the Lord. With their attitude, I would prefer these people to stay away. You are always talking about "outside people" coming in and causing trouble. What would this write-up be?

Donnie, You have become the resident "smut" reporter, so I don't guess it would do any good to ask you to leave also.

Member:

Did you listen to Dr. White’s sermon this past Sunday? If the guests reacted to the drastic changes in “worship programming” the way that they did, I don’t think it was their fault. It’s more like their changed “attitude” from favorable to unfavorable reflects the way “worship” has changed from one of reverence to that of holy fun and entertainment. I think the target of “introspection” should be directed to the way worship is being conducted—not to the guests’ attitude. Furthermore, where’s your welcoming attitude towards those visiting? So, you all keep saying: love, love, love. Where did it go this time?

Donnie

Donnie,
I seem to remember love being the greatest command. From all the posts you have placed here, I can't find a single one that displays a lot of love on your part. After re-reading your post and the one from "Big Red", I have come to the conclusion you made up the story about the visitors. If you did not, then your testimony is still hearsay. So let them come forward with their own story.
Along the same lines; just who are you, anyway. I've been searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's and there is no mention of your name. Also, I asked around, and NO ONE seems to recall who you are. I propose this theory: Donnie sneaks in, retrieves a worship guide, buys a sermon tape, and makes up the rest. When I do find you, I'm going to ask you to leave. Politely, of course.

Member:

I seem to remember love being the greatest command, too. What a surprise! From all the posts you have placed here, I find you preaching love constantly. But I have yet to sense that love emanating from your very being to me, as well as to the guests. (I had asked you earlier about where your welcoming attitude and love towards those visiting went—you did not respond.)

Please don’t waste your precious time searching directories or asking others about me anymore. I’m convinced it won’t do you any good.

Donnie

Wow Donny you actually stayed after a church service to talk to someone. That's a first, and you sure do have a great gift of remembering conversations. I mean I wouldn't want you to have miss quoted someone, and have them upset at you. You are all knowing and wise, so I mean God must have given you that gift too. It's suprizing to me that when anyone tries to defend Madison or what it supports you just srug them off as hear say. And when asked questions that make you look bad you ignore them, or change the subject. Your worried about Madison as it stands with the Churchs of Chirst, when really what's always been the concern is where the heart of the members are. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, body, and mind. That's the greatest commandment, and if people are doing so then they are in great favor of God, because from that one law all the other laws fall into place. I hate to tell you this, but you're not the one to judge where anyone's heart is. So Madison does stuff a little different, if the C of C did everything the same with every church, and thought that one way is right, and everything else is wrong that would make them a cult or very close to it. I believe that those who are baptized, follow the law, and love God are truly pleasing in his sight. And you Donnie, don't know exactly what will and wont find favor in God. You continuly try to bring down fellow brothers in Christ in stead of saying Praise God for you are my brother. Just because something is different doesn't make it wrong. There are different churchs for different people. If everything was the same, Christ's church would be soo much smaller then it is today. It's some differences that draw people in to different congregations. Everyone is different, and all people are drawn to different things. Donnie you should find a church that best fits you, and leave these people alone. You waist such wonderful talents that God has blessed you with. Instead of helping people come to Christ, like the bible askes us to do, you are up in the balcony (not ever participating) taking notes and complaining. I tell you this as a brother with much love, leave and make better do with the talents that God has given you. You are just waisting them and hurting yourself here. It's not your place to be the jugde of what is right and what is wrong. That is up to God, and not you. It's people like you that give Church a bad rap. It's people like you that are caught up in your rules that made my mom decide to leave church. It was a loving church that got her to come back. I pray you find the light, and that you stray away from the place the devil has placed you in.

Big Red

“DO YOU WANT TO WORSHIP HERE”
(Sermon Delivered by: Dr. C. Bruce White on August 31, 2003, 8:00 A.M.)

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ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: The following is an “unofficial” transcript from the taped sermon that was delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White at the 8:00 A.M. assembly. It is not only unofficial, but is also not in its entirety by intent—I wanted to bring up only segments pertinent to: (1) the Restoration Movement, (2) the observance of the Lord’s Supper being one of the issues in the church of Corinth, (3) tradition and the hand clapping issue, (4) the spiritual gifts, (5) singing [or the lack of it] and the use of instrumental music not any more of an error or in violation of the New Testament spirit than not singing. Please note that the segment on “clapping” in this tape may vary somewhat from that in the 10:30 A.M. tape as it is being addressed to two separate and contrasting audiences. When the second tape is available and time permits, I will try to provide in print that portion of the sermon in this thread. Again, this printed information is “unofficial” and acceptance and consideration of its accuracy is at your own discretion. Both tapes of the complete sermon from both services are available at the receptionist’s desk of the Madison Church of Christ (or upon request).
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[Paul’s concern about the church of Corinth …]

“… ‘If you people don’t get your act together over there, no one is going to worship with you….’ That consideration is alive today…. Paul was trying to awaken in those brethren at Corinth that to do that introspection of what is going on in your place. So, it causes us to do the same thing—to take a look at ourselves and ask: Is this what would attract people to worship the Lord…. We have called ourselves for a hundred or more years the Restoration church, i.e., we’re seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture. But something that disturbs me in the Restoration is that we today seem to talk about it as if it was something that happened; that it’s a past event. And a lot of our people study the Restoration as a historical occurrence like Barton Stone and Alexander Campbell and those guys, and maybe as we get older, we start—the younger generation—start adding to that list like J. C. Brewer and N. B. Hardeman and so forth. But the Restoration is never a historical event. The Restoration Movement is a living vibrant movement…. And I want to make a statement to you that I am going to make it clearly, I hope, so that you will let it sink in as we’re talking today. I want you, if you can, to write this thing down and look at it again. I worked on it so, I think, it’s worded properly, and I want you to write it down, if you can. You need to keep this in mind: The hallmark of an authentic Restoration is not the uncritical repetition of old traditions, but the willingness to submit every tradition, however ancient, to fresh scrutiny and, if necessary, reform. As I study the Restoration Movement up to this point, I think that that particular thought process has waned. When the Restoration Movement began, it was alive. It was seeking to reform what was traditional and what was human into that which is spiritual and which is expressing the love of God and the expression of praise to God in the sense that the New Testament Christians had it. And as the years go by and we kind of solidify, we begin to form the same kind of traditions that those early restorers would have thought against. Because the one thing that the Holy Spirit of God cannot stand is a stagnant atmosphere in which there is no life. And so Paul was concerned about that with the church of Corinth….

“… In chapters 11 through 14 of First Corinthians … Paul is saying, you need to be concerned in your fellowship over there. You need to be concerned in your assembly because these things could form a crust around you that would present the living Spirit from being felt and people would not want to worship there. In I Corinthians 11, he begins by talking about propriety in worship, and he begins by talking about the disposition in prayer, and he is talking about in this disposition in prayer about how one appears in reference to prayer, and that was the first century expression in apparel and dress, and so forth. And he talks about women having a covering when they pray, and men not having a covering when they pray, and how that they need to be aware of that and need to follow that restriction in their prayer life. And he talks about a man should not have long hair because that’s designed by God as a woman’s covering. And so he says you need to pay attention to those things in your service, in your worship that would interfere or interrupt in your personal approach to God…. The attitude that one brings to worship is what Paul is talking about. The expression of praise to God in attitude…. Where do you want to worship? … I’ll take that joy and life and excitement every time. Paul goes on in verse 17-19 of chapter 11. He talks about the Lord’s Supper. He’s been talking about division and party spirits…. We can have differences of opinion; we can have differences in judgment; we can like or dislike things differently. We might enjoy one thing and another person might enjoy another thing, but we cannot afford to party ourselves around those things. You know, I may not like someone clapping at a song. That may not be in my comfort zone. And I may like to just kind of sit and sing a song, you know, as we sing it and not get animated with it. And it’s OK for me to hold that. But it’s not okay for me to get four or five other people and say, ‘Do you like them clapping to a song? I don’t like that. Do you like that? No, I don’t like that. O, good, come on with me, and let’s find somebody else that don’t like it, too. And let’s get us this bigger group as we can that don’t like it. And let’s just sit together and be miserable and not like it.’ And let me tell you, folks, you’ve just interfered with your worship. You cannot approach God with that kind of an attitude and spirit. And you may have interfered with someone coming to worship. I can like something better than you like it or I can dislike something that you like. But we don’t have to party up and begin to divide the body. And Paul warns against that because it is going to cause difficulty in your worship. Then he talks about the Lord’s Supper. And this is not just a meal like you have at home, and it’s not for the feeding of the flesh; it is a spiritual time with the Lord. And I tell you what: through the years I’ve been challenged with that. And I know what was going on in the first century, and you do, too. They were having the agape meal, and they just decided, well, if we are going to eat the Lord’s Supper, we’re going to eat the agape feast—why separate those? We’ll just wait till we have our agape meal; we’ll eat the Lord’s Supper there, too. And Paul says no, no, no; you distinguish between those. Well, we don’t have an agape meal like they did then. That’s the reason I parallel these things with us … that exact example. But we’ve got the principle there…. Are you in some other activity, you know, that is totally separate and apart, that’s material and physical and worldly and secular, while the Lord’s Supper is being partaken of? Don’t you thank God for worshipping at Madison where the Lord’s Supper is taken seriously? … And I know churches that literally time how quick they can serve the Lord’s Supper…. God is the God of all time and we’re not here to keep time. We’re to worship. And so our minds and hearts need to be centered there on the Lord’s Supper….

“… The division over gifts—fussing, and jealous and envious of each other about the spiritual gifts that were given by the Spirit … all those gifts come from the same Holy Spirit…. Celebrate each other’s gift.”

[At this point, Dr. White mentions examples of gifts as shepherding, speaking and leading singing. I’ll look again in the Bible to see about “leading singing,” and I’m assuming he means more than just a “song starter”—i.e., rather a “music director” or “WORSHIP LEADER”—the one that oversees the entire “worship” program or one that “calls” (mediates) everyone to the throne of God. He also has something to say about criticizing the same: the MUSIC PROGRAM, the preacher and the shepherds. He points out (and asserts that Paul does so in the middle of the discourse) that “love is the answer” to all these problems. He goes on to say that “prophecy” is not foretelling, predicting the future, but is “heralding or forth telling.” He talks about praying, then about singing, as quoted below. The rest of the sermon is not included in this transcript.]

“… ‘I will sing with my spirit and sing with my mind.’ O, this singing with zeal and teaching. Wednesday night, Keith brought to our attention that we are ‘to admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.’ We’re singing a message to each other. We’re not just mocking words. When we’re singing these songs, we’re not just going through a ritual and some of you get so used to that you don’t even sing anymore. You just sit there. And I can’t find the passage that says what God wants is you to come into my house and sit there. The Spirit of God moves us. We sing with spirit. We sing with understanding. We admonish one another. We sing these songs in praise to God, and in teaching and encouragement to one another. You can’t do that just sitting there. And I tell you, I don’t want to hear anybody that does not sing in a worship service say anything about a group that plays in it. Because there is no more error in playing an instrument of music in worship service than there is in sitting and not singing. Amen? Both violate the spirit of the New Testament. So you see, you sing with vigor and zeal in teaching….”
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Part of the sermon is printed above for the purpose of our studying some of the real issues that confront churches, including the Madison Church. Although there are other major issues, including certain serious doctrinal matters [thanks to the change agents and their schemes], I commend Dr. Bruce White for delivering this sermon and for his boldness and forthrightness in bringing specific issues to the attention of both assemblies. However, questions related to the subject of the Restoration Movement could be: (1) did its main objective have to do with “seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament” [Dr. White] OR with seeking to restore the New Testament church of our Lord as it was in the first century; (2) was it “seeking to reform what was traditional and … human into that which is spiritual and … in the sense that the New Testament Christians had it” [Dr. White] OR was it seeking to endeavor to denounce denominationalism and teach only that which the Holy Scripture teaches.

Really understanding the subject of the Restoration Movement and its specific objectives is very important and should make a good starting point of our study. If not, let’s discuss the specific issues—divisive and conflicting—confronting the Madison Church, as well as other congregations of the church of Christ.
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Donnie Cruz

BRUCE WHITE: "… 'If you people don't get your act together over there, no one is going to worship with you….' That consideration is alive today…. Paul was trying to awaken in those brethren at Corinth that to do that introspection of what is going on in your place. So, it causes us to do the same thing—to take a look at OURSELVES and ask: Is this what would attract people to worship the Lord….

------------------------------

There is not a solitary hint that people should DO church in order to attract people to "worship with you." This is ALL part of the clergy SHELL GAME: the GOOD guys and the BAD guys play a game HOPING that you can be fooled into hiring them as MUSICAL WORSHIP MINISTERS or MISSIONARIES IN RESIDENCE. Never forget that Paul writing concerning PAY for the MANY while starving the honest EVANGELISTS is that "FOOLS LOVE TO BE FOOLED." Most churches are IN BED with the civil government which has decided that YOU MUST REFUSE TO HAVE THE MEMORY OF GOD IN YOUR HEART.

The solution is NOT to "take a look at ourselves": that is the INTROSPECTION which causes you to REPUDIATE THE BIBLE and "do what comes naturally." Mud wrestling would attract people to what is laughingly called "worship" but not to Jesus Christ of whom it was predicted that He would not "cry out" or call assemblies in the modern sense.

Jesus would build an ekklesia or synagogue: a school of the Bible and therefore a Discipling meeting. Paul repudiated RELIGION which was always pagan and charismatic and perverted. In Romans 15 he has a solution for the potential problems of DIVERSE RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE of the Orphics and Dionysics both which depended on charismatic music which was USED to bring on PROPHECY which was an "out of your mind" experience which Paul identified as MADNESS. This is related to the MANTIC arts which treated WOMEN as inspired in their uncovered prophesying (1 Cor 11:5) and acting like RAVING MANIACS (praise singing). NO ONE was inspired or prophesied FUTURE EVENTS while IN THEIR SENSES.

Paul told the Romans to act like CHRIST by non "pleasing themselves." I need to repeat some stuff. Paul OUTLAWED pleasing self as Jesus taught. Pleasing:

--PLEASE IS: Aresko (g700) ares'-Jo; prob. from 142 (through the idea of EXCITING EMOTIONS)
---AIR (g142) awry; a prim. verb; to LIFT; by imp. to take up or AWAY; fig. to RAISE THE VOICE, KEEP IN SUSPENSE the MIND

The BURDEN the UNLAWFUL CLERGY laded on and which Jesus Christ died to REMOVE was and is:

----PHORTIZO (g5412) for-tid'-zo; from 5414; to LOAD up.. figurative to OVERBURDEN with CEREMONIAL or SPIRITUAL ANXIETY.

And it is the TITHE to pay for something for which Jesus Christ DIED. You tithe and you repudiate the SACRIFICE of Christ and when you MUSICATE you repudiate the WORD of Christ and USE the GIFT of Lucifer or Satan "the harp-playing and singing prostitute."

.PHOROS (g5411) for'-os; from 5342; a load (as borne,) i.e. (fig.) a tax (prop. an individ. ASSESSMENT on persons or PROPERTY; whereas 5056 is usually a gen. toll on goods or travel): - tribute.

Jesus came to give REST which is the opposite of what we too often see as WORSHIP, but it rarely gives us real satisfaction. The laded burden which fits Paul's idea and which Jesus died to remove is the Greek:

....ANAPAUO (g373) an-up-ow'-o; from 303 and 3973; (reflex.) to REPOSE (lit. or fig. [be EXEMPT], remain); by imp. to REFRESH: - take EASE, refresh, (give, take) rest.

....PAU (g3973) pow'-o; a prim. verb ("pause"); to stop (trans. or intrans.), i.e. restrain, quit, desist, come to an end: - cease, leave, refrain.

Those Bruce White has DEMOTED to being SHEPHERDS were BISHOPS and their gift (Originally) was to be the ONLY Pastor-Teachers in the flock along with the DEACONS or MINISTERS who taught UNDER the Superentendants. The WOLVES have invaded and consumed the LIFE of the elders so that they can GNAW THE BONES of the lambs.

WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE RESTORATION MOVEMENT
"TRADITIONS" HERE IS THE DIRECT COMMAND OF PAUL for the ELDERS who are not, in Rubel Shelly's teachings SHEPHERDS OF THE MINISTERS who are the TRUE leaders:

.."Holding fast the faithful WORD as he hath BEEN taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. Titus 1:9

The SYNAGOGUE in Romans, like all Synagogues "HAD NO PRAISE SERVICE." The synagogue or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS was forbidden to PLAY AND MAKE A JOYFUL NOISE BEFORE THE LORD because this was the WARRIOR'S CHANT and you don't NEED to emotionally MOLEST the assembly when they meet for TEACHING or looking to Jesus as the ONLY MASTER TEACHER. Jesus meets with you as the ONLY TEACHER to who YOU are a DISCIPLE and not a "musical or word mediator" ONLY if you let Him speak through His sermons and songs.

"For whatsoever things were WRITTEN AFORETIME were written for our LEARNING , that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4
..Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another ACCORDING to Christ Jesus: Rom 15:5
...That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6
...Wherefore RECEIVE ye one another, as Christ also received us, to the glory of God. Rom 15:7

Contrary to the MOCKING PHDS, you CAN all SPEAK THE SAME THINGS if you speak THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN. Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs are all INSPIRED by the SPIRIT OF CHRIST (1 Pe 1:11).

Bruce White and HIS "shepherds" DO NOT Know that the PRECEDENT of the Synagogue which Jesus attended was: "There was NO praise service in the Synagogue" because it was not a PAGAN WORSHIP CENTER but a school of the Bible and for PRAYERS "using that which was written" by the leader: others prayed in their CLOSETS and Jesus COMMANDED it to continued.

The DIRECT COMMAND is to "TEACH that which has been taught, that which is written, and Psalm, hymns and spiritual songs (ALL inspired Psalm titles). Their singing used about 4 notes in unison and were in the "lower register suited for the SPEAKING voice." The cultural 'SINGING' and MELODY were to be in the heart because the purpose was to TEACH and ADMONISH and not stroke the pleasure centers and cause you to GIVE HEED to the singy-clappy guys "outside of themselves."

Ken Sublett

Ken,

What was the principal objective or objectives of the Restoration Movement? Was one primary objective (according to Dr. White) “seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture”? Or, was it seeking to restore the New Testament church as it was in the first century? What would the great men of the Movement have thought of the postmodern MUSICAL WORSHIP programming being so far removed from the Word-centered assembly of the early Christians?

Donnie

Donnie, I will look at this one further in the morning. I can tell you this: all of the MERRY BAND who has deliberately set out to destroy the church of the Restoration movement. They do not hesitate to use the GUILT CLAUSE which is as follows:

The first organ was put into a church in Midway Ky by the preacher who was a CERTIFIABLE LIBERAL. An elder and a slave took the organ out during the night. The HIRELING had it replaced. Others added organs and choirs and drove many of the members away. Those who LEFT for a non-pagan church were accused of SOWING DISCORD. To not mince words, this is a lie and Jesus said that the Devil "speaks on his own."

However, John Calvin called his movement a RESTORATION movement and truly partly restored baptism by REMOVING all of the pagan practices which ASSISTED God. The Reformation "restoration" cast the organs out just as Jesus cast out the musical minstrelsy--just like Dung.

The Lord's Supper was stripped of much of its pagan superstition. A FUNDAMENTAL restoration was to CAST OUT the non-functional idols called CLERGY and they supported only evangelists. And on and On. For now, I will quote some WHITE STUFF:

"We have called ourselves for a hundred or more years the Restoration church, i.e., we're seeking to restore the worship of God in the New Testament as it was to our culture.

I will speak gibberish for half of his unlawful wage.

--IF WE DIDN'T KNOW THERE WAS SOME HEGELING going on we would translate that statement in Lucadoism:

"Kalla ma sone, da fa kooka shores. It kin da la key la shone da la kene."

WHITE STUFF AGAIN: "But something that disturbs me in the Restoration is that we today seem to talk about it as if it was something that happened; that it's a past event."

Bruce White is not going to find any Biblical or Historical evidence to RESTORE tithing or MUSICAL IDOLATRY TEAMS. However, NARRATIVE THEOLOGY gives the unlawful clergy the right to TAKE LIBERTIES. What you will find is that the LINGO of the entire band is quite identical: The non-instrumental churches of Christ created everything from the FALL to BAD BREATH.

By hitting and running these people who truly seem Biblically and historically illiterate (why else could they get hired?) begin with Machiavelli then Hitler then Gramsci as restored communism, then Hegel and then end with some of our WIND NAVIGATORS.

By throwing little hand grenades with slight of hand they do the DAMAGE intended to use Anderson's PRAYERFUL BRINKMANSHIP and STILL keep from getting fired. Someone will ask: "Since we believed that the RM helped continue a century old effort, then WHY are we paying someone an UNLAWFUL wage to destroy what we hired him to defend?" But, then, the BODY did not hire the unlawful STAFF INFECTION and the ELDERS neither have the knowledge nor authority to "hire a monkey to pull their nuts out of the fire."

More later.

Ken

Dear Big Red (Post Dated September 4 2003, 2:27 AM):

Thank you for your compacted analysis and evaluation of me. You brought up matters that were either “common knowledge” in nature (loving God, letting God be the judge, etc.) or the same old accusations against me. That’s fine. But some of your remarks are of interest to me:

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BIG RED TO DONNIE:
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It’s surprising to me that when anyone tries to defend Madison or what it supports, you just shrug them off as hearsay. … You’re worried about Madison at it stands with the churches of Christ, when really what’s always been the concern is where the heart of the members are. … So, Madison does stuff a little differently. If the Church of Christ did everything the same with every church, and thought that one way is right, and everything else is wrong, that would make them a cult or very close to it. … And you, Donnie, don’t know exactly what will and won’t find favor in God. You continually bring down fellow brothers in Christ instead of saying, Praise God for you are my brother. Just because something is different doesn’t make it wrong. There are different churches for different people. If everything was the same, Christ’s church would be so much smaller than it is today….”
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DONNIE TO BIG RED:
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I honestly think that you are not looking at the big picture. You’ve been blinded by “religious” movements that are secular-oriented and culture-driven. The fact is that churches of Christ across the land are under siege. Because of the size of the Madison congregation, it is no exception as one of the favorite targets of subversion. What you don’t see is that those “who appear to you” to be defending Madison, unbeknownst to them, are really defending the proponents of the Change Movement and its cause. The change agents (and they’re proud of referring to themselves as such) have subtle schemes to divert the church from its scriptural foundation and to pervert the truth. And here’s one little voice coming from Donnie Cruz, really trying to defend Madison [would you be willing to accept that for a change?] from further conquest by these truth perverts. I have nothing against the Madison body or against the “regular” members of the body, like you and me, or I would have already left. But I might add that I honestly cannot bring myself to tell someone, “Praise God for you are my brother,” when I and many others know fully well that this brother has alienated other brethren and has caused havoc and division in the church—and still continues to do so!!!!

I really do understand differences among congregations—they are to be expected and have been in existence—and that is not the issue. And it’s more than just that “Madison does stuff a little differently.” The seriousness of the problems confronting Madison and other leading congregations goes a lot deeper than that, as these prominent congregations in the brotherhood have been or are being targeted for transformation from their scriptural foundation to whatever else that would not even bear a resemblance to the New Testament church that Christ established—in some of its doctrine, beliefs and practices.

We must recognize the fact that what the change agents are doing, especially in the realm of “improving upon God’s will for the church,” are inflicting damage upon the body of Christ—confusion, alienation and division. These are the folks, with their newly discovered or imitated human doctrines and beliefs, that the church must guard itself against. It is my hope and prayer that the elders of any congregation have a better grasp of the propensity of a church being victimized and of the magnitude of the problems confronting congregations of the church. After all, it is their responsibility as shepherds to take care of the flock from grievous wolves. If not, they will have to answer before God.

Finally, would you please explain your final remark: “that you [Donnie] stray away from the place the devil has placed you in”? I’d like to think that I know myself. I know that the devil is alive and well. I also know that what the change agents are doing to the body of Christ is the work of the devil. But just where is THE PLACE that the devil has PLACED DONNIE IN?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie

Donnie if you have a problem with the church being changed because of culture why do you meet in a building, sit on pews, use song books, A/C, lighting, etc. The first churches, as you so want Madison to be like, didn’t have such things, and indeed were changed by culture. As it says in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 { ( 5.) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. ( 6.) If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut shaved off, she should cover her head. }, why aren’t we still abiding by this rule? Could it be that the culture has changed it’s original meaning? Do you wish to go back to these ways? I mean I guess not, because of all your arguments about what is “wrong” with Madison that sure hasn’t been one of them, but that is how the first church was, and that was changed due to culture. I mean by no means would you be a hypocrite for not wanting everything to go back to the way it was before culture took role. I mean if you want some of the traditions to go back why not all of them?

To quote you, Donnie, from your response you said “I have nothing against the Madison body or against the “regular” members of the body, like you and me, or I would have already left.” First off you are no member of the Madison congregation. As quoted from an actual member of the congregation on this very site “ just who are you (Donnie), anyway. I've been searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's and there is no mention of your name. Also, I asked around, and NO ONE seems to recall who you are”. How are you even a “concerned member” when you aren’t even apart of the congregation? You aren’t even apart of the body. You do NOTHING to support the congregation, except bicker and whine. Which fruit of the spirit would that one be? Hmm.. wait it isn’t one. No where in Romans 12:4-8 is your “gift” listed as being apart of the church body, and that’s the very reason why you aren’t apart of the Madison church body. If you were a member you would also actually worship with your church family. Instead of secluding yourself to a corner to take notes. Second, if you are against certain leaders of the congregation then you are against the congregation, because the congregation is a body. If you are against one part you are against the body. So don’t say you are for the congregation, when you really aren’t.

Also the heading of the Topic is “What Happened At Madison This Week”, if you truly cared for the church then why is it that you only put the negative in your weekly report. You don’t even mention when someone has been baptized, which as a christian you should hold to a high and great respect and honor. Instead you cry because the church sings a song that you aren’t familiar with, or that they clap too much (by the way how do people that are “around“ you bother you with their clapping when you don‘t sit by anyone? Fact being, most of the “clappers“ are sitting way below you.), etc. Is your heart really with God, or are you just caught in rules and getting it “right”? It sure seems like you’re caught up in the rules. Which brings me to just where the devil has placed you, Donnie. He’s put you in a place where you are just doing yourself, and the congregation of Madison more harm then helping them. As I stated before you have great gifts that God has given you, and yet you let them go to waist. As Mathew 27:19-20 says, “( 19.) Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ( 20.) and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you...”. Last I checked it’s kind of hard to be bringing people to Christ when all you are doing is arguing with a church, and helping to give people a reason to not attend church or to make Christ’s church look bad. If you have a problem with something then talk to someone about it. You don’t post a website to cry about it on. Do you honestly think that anyone is going to take you seriously on here? You are wasting your time with this, and the devil appreciates your ignorance in wasting your time, and hurting Gods kingdom. Bottom line is that you are in this to be right and to get your way. Until that happens you will not leave Madison alone. Take for example when a fellow brother, Chad, tried to ask you why you were doing what you are doing with the Madison church. You just ignored his questions calling them “hmm.. like Questions” when in fact the questions he asked were very valid. And when you tried to answer some of his other question they were totally off topic and made little to no sense. You knew he had caught you, and he knew what you really were, and you couldn’t prove otherwise. In fact I found it very interesting that as Chad was pinning you in a corner the wonderful and mysterious Ms. X appeared with such a pathetic post. So pathetic that it had to have been made up (for instance it appeared on the site right when Chad was making you look bad. If Ms. X had such a horrible worship time with Madison, who and why would she look up a web site to cry to instead of making her complaints to people at Madison itself? I know if I didn’t like a congregation I would just not attend it again, and if it really bothered me I would tell someone at the church, and not scope out a web site bashing the congregation. And, overall it was written very cheesy and by someone making stuff up as they went along.) , and boy you ate that right up and tired to draw the attention away from Chad pinning you in that corner. When it didn’t, and Chad got to the bottom line of everything, which is you just don’t like Madison. You don’t like Keith Lancaster, the elders, the songs that are sung, etc.

I honestly don’t even know why you have chosen Madison to pick on and whine about. There are several other congregations in the Nashville area that are much much much more “liberal” in their ways. In fact I attend a C of C on Wed. nights that has a musical instrument service, and it’s the best C of C I’ve been to in my life. Never before have I felt such a strong presence of God in worship. And that was through the people that attend there. They pretty much have already achieved this “change” that you are trying to stop Madison from going through. Much prayer and thought went into their “changing”, and God has been very supportive of it, and if not they wouldn’t have even “changed” and the “change“ wouldn‘t be going as well as it is. That congregation that I attend on Wed. night is the only C of C that I have honestly felt loved in to the point where when they ask if someone needs prayers for their sins I’m more then willing to walk down and just spill my beans to them all. Why, because of the love they show me each time I visit. I know they will not judge me, but sit, pray, and cry with me. For the last time you are a waist in the position you’re in right now, and that’s why you have been placed there by the devil.

I can’t believe you can’t even say “thank God for you are my brother” to a fellow christian at Madison. 1 Peter 4:8 “( 8.) Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins”. John 13:34-35 “( 34.) A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. ( 35.) By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another”. Even if fellow brother in Christ does stuff differently you should still be thankful that he is a member of Christ’s church and is saved from sin. And, if it is a brother lost in sin, then hate the sin and not the person. NO matter what you should always thank God for someone being in Christ. Yet again I question where your heart is? Certainly God rejoices that he is a fellow brother, and yet you can’t. Are you better then God, or did I miss something? Because with a comment like that you sure perceive yourself to be better then him.

I still pray for you Donnie. As my fellow brother I care about you very much. I don’t want to see you hurt yourself anymore. I love you brother, and I hope that you will see the light. God bless.

Big Red

BRUCE WHITE DIVERTING FROM THE TOPIC: "In I Corinthians 11, he begins by talking about propriety in worship, and he begins by talking about the disposition in prayer, and he is talking about in this disposition in prayer about how one appears in reference to prayer, and that was the first century expression in apparel and dress, and so forth.

...."And he talks about women having a covering when they pray, and men not having a covering when they pray, and how that they need to be aware of that and need to follow that restriction in their prayer life.

BIG RED DITTO: "Donnie if you have a problem with the church being changed because of culture why do you meet in a building, sit on pews, use song books, A/C, lighting, etc. The first churches, as you so want Madison to be like, didn't have such things, and indeed were changed by culture. As it says in 1 Corinthians 11:5-6 { ( 5.) And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head - it is just as though her head were shaved. ( 6.) If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut shaved off, she should cover her head. }, why aren't we still abiding by this rule? Could it be that the culture has changed it's original meaning?

KEN: This is the BAIT AND SWITCH:

First Premis (false) they wore VEILS in the Corinthians churches;

Second Premise: Donnie doesnt wear a hat.

Conclusion: Donnie cannot object to CHOIRS and INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. (The first ammendment is still alive and well)

The fact, Big Red, if you were as interested in God and His WORD as you are in getting YOUR SHARE of SELF AFFIRMATION you would know that from beginning to the end in Revelation 18 singers and musicians are MOVED by Satan and all names of instruments and musical terms are VALIDATED by YOURSELF: they always said to God, "We WILL NOT hear from your Word or your prophets."

You would also know that the synagogues where Jesus attended had a PULPIT and PEWS. The high ceiling with a balcony, fairly well AIR CONDITIONED the building. Jesus STOOD UP to read the WORD which supported the SCROLLS and NOT the preacher. Then He had the decency to SIT DOWN in real PEWS. He may have had a FAN from the closest palm tree.

Paul never COMMANDED that women should submit to a hair length before either private or public prayer.

"Judge in yourselves: is it comely (that she tower up) that a woman pray unto God uncovered? 1 Cor 11:13
....Doth not even NATURE itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? 1 Co.11:14

NATURE means natural production, lineal descent, Native Disposition. Paul said NOTHING about God or LAWS of church attendance. NOTHING!!

"But IF a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. 1Co.11:15
...."But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. 1 Cor 11:16

Custom IS NOT a law and that is why LITERATE people in my 73 years never made a LAW about hair coverings: it was usually WOMEN THEMSELVES who obeyed the custom to HONOR their HUSBAND because an uncovered women meant that "YOU ARE INVITED."

"SUNETHEIA (g4914) soon-ay'-thi-ah; from a comp. of 4862 and 2239; mutual HABITATION, i.e. usage: - custom.
....But ye have a CUSTOM, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? Jn.18:39

"SUN (g4862) soon; a prim. prep. denoting union; with or together (but much closer than 3326 or 3844), i.e. by association, COMPANIONSHIP.

When you ASSEMBLE together as a TRIBE, the ETHOS of all of Paul's arena observed the HEAD COVERING. The CONDEMNATION in 1 Cor 11 had to do directly with women who SANG AND PLAYED INSTRUMENTS to go mad to claim to prophesy. But, Paul knew that it was out of THEIR OWN spirit and not the Holy Spirit

Ethos (g2239) ay'-thos; a strengthened form of 1485; usage, i.e. (plur.) MORAL HABITS: - MANNERS.
....Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good MANNERS. 1Co.15:33

AN ETHNOS is a group or tribe. It was the CUSTOM of all of the churches that women should be covered. In English Law, a CUSTOM is observed only in the LOCAL SENSE. Therefore, the CUSTOMS of Corinth are NOT the customs of Nashville.
...Ethnos (g1484) eth'-nos; prob. from 1486; a RACE (as of the SAME HABIT), i.e. a tribe; spec. a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by impl. pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

A tribal custom is NOT a LAW OF GOD. Rather, the first verses of 1 Corinthians directly addresses the UNCOVERED PROPHESYING of the women many of whom were "just out of paganism." The singing of their own "songs" out of THEIR OWN SPIRIT or whatever popped into their mind under the influence of drugs and music was PROPHESYING in sense of singing and playing instruments.

The approved PROPHESYING in Corinth would be ONLY those who had a supernatural message from God AND sang so that ANOTHER inspired person could interpret. Because we have no evidence that Corinth had ANY supernatural gift Paul is using IRONY.

When you READ directly from the prophetic word and say "Thus Saith the Lord" you were prophesying in the good sense.

BIG RED: In fact I attend a C of C on Wed. nights that has a musical instrument service, and it's the best C of C I've been to in my life. Never before have I FELT such a strong presence of God in worship.

KEN: They SAW YOU COMING, Big Red! IF they just massage your nerve endings then YOU get the glory. This is the TERMINAL SIN, BIG (If I might get personal.) You had NO INTEREST in worshiping God by GIVING HEED to His words. Therefore, the CULTISTS know that they COULD give your body and mind a massage and create the effects of FIGHT, FLIGHT and SEXUALITY. BY giving YOU the devotion they repudiated God. But YOU will come back and bring your TITHING BAG.

BIG RED: Why, because of the love they show ME each time I visit. I know they will NOT judge me, but sit, pray, and cry with me. For the last time you are a WAIST in the position you're in right now, and that's why you have been placed there by the devil.

KEN: I am sorry, BIG, that you are having deep problems but deep anxiety is created in turn by MUSIC. It has it's roots in SHOOTING you with the arrows of Apollo. In a pagan religious sense, the "arrows" just made you FEEL spiritual. You know, Jesus DID die for A cappella music: He died to remove the LADED BURDEN of "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." Sure, the way to induct you in ANY cult is to WORSHIP you but you don't know YET just WHOM you can confess and repent with. The CULTISTS such as the International Church of Christ, like all priestly CONFESSORS, keep a good record of your flaws so that they can CONTROL YOU IN THE FUTURE. I am not harshly judging because anyone who would use INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC combined with probably an unnatural show of affection proves them to be BIBLICALLY and SPIRITUALLY ignorant. Confess to Jesus: He won't blab.

TO DONNIE: I am PROUD that God has placed you at the WAIST: He wants you to be the BUCKLE of the Bible Belt. If you see BIG RED'S light it will be, as PROMOTED for the "emerging church of Christ" that you ADD light shows to go along with the instrumental music. This brings on HYPNOSIS quicker than instrumental music alone. Remember WOODSTOCK? Singers and Musicians, then and now, are connected with SORCERY and, I repeat, were known to be PARASITES.

Ken Sublett

Please read my post “The Community Church Movement Is Quite Formidable” dated September 11 2003 at 2:30 AM

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MADISON MARCHER: “PREACHER POTPOURRI” (September 3, 2003)
Dr. C. Bruce White
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[[[… We are planning some wonderful things for the church over the next few months. Listen for the announcement of special activities and plan on participating.

We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.

It is such a blessing to worship at Madison. There is an excitement about being here that isn’t found in many other churches….”]]]
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CALLING ALL SINGERS!
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[[[The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers. If you are interested please call Stephen at 860-3268 or Leanne at 860-3230 for more information. Thank you for your interest!]]]
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Note: I’m not sure if both Stephen and Leanne are the assistant WORSHIP LEADERS. Will someone correct me if I have the wrong information?
===========================================================

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
RESTORATION MOVEMENT vs. COMMUNITY CHURCH MOVEMENT
“QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS” POTPOURRI:
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[] At the outset, it was simply the New Testament assembly or gathering of the saints.
[] At the outset, it was neither “traditional” nor “contemporary’—it was Word-centered.
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[] What makes a “worship” service “traditional” according to the Change Movement?
[] What makes a “worship” service “contemporary” according to the change agents?
[] Does the charismatic-influenced festivity/party refer to the Restoration as traditional?
[] Does the charismatic-influenced festivity/party refer to the “changes” contemporary?
[] Both “STYLES” [?] of “worship” have praying.
[] Both “STYLES” [?] of “worship” observe the Lord’s Supper
[] It was a serious attempt to partake of the Lord’s Supper worthily.
[] The Lord’s Supper now includes simulation stories, solo and humming in progress.
[] It was “giving of our means”; it is now TITHING.
[] It was reverence and solemnity; it is now holy fun and entertainment.
[] It was Christ-centered, and serious study of the Bible was primary.
[] It is now having an excellent MUSICAL WORSHIP programming as primary.
[] Attention was on our Redeemer; now the WORSHIP LEADER wants more attention.
[] Glory and praise was to our Father; now the WORSHIP LEADER wants his share.
[] Children of age in the 10:30 contemporary are privileged to go to Canaan’s Land.
[] Are children of age in the 8:00 assembly privileged to go to Canaan’s Land?
[] Or, do the “traditionalists” not have any children—their program has no such event.
[] There was no handclapping in consideration of those who did not want the NOISE!
[] Rhythmical, thunderous clapping is exercised frequently during singing at 10:30.
[] The “love feast” is greeting before or after the worship period in OTHER assemblies.
[] At Madison, the “love feast” is so special that it takes 2 to 3 minutes of “community” greetings and noise somewhere in the middle of the worship period—usually before or after the Communion.
[] Many more items may be added to the list—but for now….
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I believe the assembly of the saints to break bread and feed on God’s Word should not be a matter of choice between “styles of worship.” The preaching, scriptural or unscriptural, is expected to be the same in both assemblies, but could potentially cause division. But it really boils down to what appears to be MUSICAL WORSHIP as the key difference. This is pretty sad when the focus or objective for the assembly of Christians is MUSICAL WORSHIP—programming of which is one colossal method or step in the transformation of a church from its scriptural foundation. After all, MUSICAL WORSHIP—I am very serious—has never been an aspect or characteristic of the New Testament church gathering.

This has been made official, since the time that the congregation was directed by the elders to “get over it; we must move on”—that there is a clear distinction between the “traditional” and “contemporary” groups of worshippers. This doesn’t sound like unity to me. There is a union but not unity. In this scenario, on the part of the leadership, there is no “endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Ephesians 4:3). In this case, there is no unity in diversity.

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Donnie Cruz

Donnie,
Before you go off on another one of your soapboxes again and misquote your information regarding what is happening at Madison. I am the Worship Ministry Assistant to Keith. I assist in the areas of worship planning, sound/audio, worship leading occassionally and musical arrangements to the songs that we sing in services. Leanne, is the Worship and Media Center administrative assistant (aka.secretary.) If you have any further questions do not be afraid to come out of your shell in the balcony to find me and talk with me. I am always usually in the audio room in the back of the auditorium during both services.

Stephen,

Sorry, I did not intend to berate the level of your job/position and qualifications with the Madison Church. [I promise not to ask about your financial compensation for your labor of love for the Master in the “Music Ministry.”] I seem to forget that along with the rapid advances in the technologies, leaders must also UPGRADE God’s will and directives for the church—including its purpose for assembling, doctrines, beliefs and practices. I also seem to get confused about so many different titles in the body of believers in Christ in this postmodern era—WORSHIP FACILITATOR, MUSIC DIRECTOR, WORSHIP LEADER, and their assistants, etc. It wasn’t too long ago when it was only the apostles, elders, deacons, evangelists and teachers—that’s what my Bible informs me. I hope that at some point in time, these new offices do not surpass the office of the eldership in its sphere of influence in the church. Thank you for clarifying the misinformation—you are “the Worship Ministry Assistant to Keith,” instead of “Assistant Worship Leader.” I am just glad that my earlier NOTE got your attention. Please continue keeping up with the soapboxes and please don’t hesitate to correct misquotes and misinformation regarding “what is happening at Madison.”

As for Leanne, I just wanted to make sure that the Madison Church does not have a first—your being an “Assistant Worship Leader.” Sorry! The correct information from Stephen is that Leanne is “the Worship and Media Center Administrative Assistant (a.k.a. Secretary).”

Donnie

Mr. Stephen Vail:

I need (and probably others as well) need some clarification. Since you are officially “the Worship Ministry Assistant to Keith,” does that make Mr. Keith Lancaster “THE WORSHIP MINISTER,” instead of “THE WORSHIP LEADER”? Or, does it not make any difference in his case? Now, I need to know Dr. Bruce White’s title—is it “PREACHING MINISTER” perhaps?

Since preaching (which lasts only about 20 minutes) is only a segment of the 90-minute “worship” period, it sounds like the remaining whole hour is devoted to the LOVE FEAST and MUSICAL WORSHIP. From all indications, MUSICAL WORSHIP consists of “singy-clappy” praises, solos, duets, trios, humming, o-o-o-inking and “spirited” whistling [sorry, I can’t describe this distinct sound or noise produced by the Praise Team members during their singing, dc]. Does Dr. White report to Leader Lancaster to ensure everything else is in sync with the MUSICAL WORSHIP programming? Does Dr. White have any input as to certain song selections that might relate to his sermon?

Lastly, your announcement: “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers. If you are interested please call Stephen at 860-3268 or Leanne at 860-3230 for more information. Thank you for your interest!”

Just curious—are you trying to expand your Praise Team services and responsibilities or just replacing those who have quit or who no longer desire to perform? Would this expansion entail additional expenses, such as microphones? (Well, at least the Church of Christ choir members at Madison do not wear the choir robes.) As part of your MUSIC MINISTRY responsibilities, may I suggest updating the contemporary music materials in the balcony—Jeremy’s argument is that they’re not getting updated for lack of singing participation upstairs. Do you agree with Jeremy’s statement?

I’ll be patiently waiting for your response.

Donnie Cruz

Mr Cruz,
As I said in my first response--if you want to speak with me about any matters you can find me in the auditorium on Sunday mornings or set up a meeting and we can discuss any matters. As for clarification...you know how to get in touch with me. I'm not wasting my time telling you and every other Tom Dick and Harry that wastes their time viewing this garbage. You can call the number and ask me. I will be as clear as I can be, but know first and foremost that the way you carry yourself on this site won't get you anywhere and I don't find it anyone's business on this site...(i.e. those who have nothing to do with Madison to know). God is doing great things and with your attitude in your response, you won't get much out of me. But if you do wish to know my thoughts you can call me at the office. If you want to talk with me, there you have it. You know how to get a hold of me....take it or leave it. Just be thankful that I am giving you a chance. You can take it or leave it

Mr. Vail,

You could have just as easily explained your position in as many words as in your post above, and everything would be on record and unquestioned—remember transcription problems? Whether you like it or not, whether I take it or leave it, the public deserves to know. Just as we are not to be ashamed of the gospel of Christ, there should be nothing of truth that you should be ashamed of—to Madison members or not. By the way, thanks for taking the time viewing this garbage.

Donnie Cruz

Touchy aren't we? Donnie’s questions are reasonable. You seem to represent Madison, so why not clarify the issue. That way we all have the straight story.
TDH

Stephen,
Just realized who you are. I enjoyed singing at the funeral with you. You have a terrific voice and I thought the four of us had a really good sound.

I really do not intend to sound condescending but I have a suggestion. Be more tactful in what you say here. You never know who is reading this and what kind of influence you are projecting. It takes much more careful thought to put things on this site than it does to chat one on one in person. I realize that sometimes things read here sound very harsh and mean but I also think that most of the time they were not meant that way.

If you think that "this site" is "GARBAGE" (and I think that was a bad choice of words for someone in your position) then you have not visited many sites on the web at all. I would suggest that if you do not like what you read here, then don't.

Thanks Brother,
Larry.

I have been informed that the person posting as Stephen IS NOT Stephen Vail.

I RETRACT the statement posted toward Stephen Vail and direct it toward the person posting as Stephen whoever they are. If it was the intent of this person to make themself appear to be Stephen Vail, that was a very low and cowardly thing to do. On the other hand, maybe it was a misunderstanding on my part. Sorry Stephen.

Larry

Stephen, wake up: Donnie doesn't want TO GET A HOLD OF YOU. He wants you to just get out and get an HONEST job and quit sowing discord.

There is no role in the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST for sensitive Dramatic types to act as MEDIATOR. The world of Paul universally recognized all of the PERFORMING ARTS: "rhetoricians, Sophists (ophis=serpents of the Babylon whore end time of Rev 18), singers, musicians, actors or craftsmen (techne) as soothsayers or sorcerers. They were ALL identified as of the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITE group and therefore were all known as PARASITES.

http://www.piney.com/MuHeresyDow.html

I have just posted an update to show the UNIVERSAL UNDERSTANDING of the performing artists attempting to be ORACLES:

SUMPHONIA, hê, concord or unison of sound, tên en têi OIDES HARMONIAN

3. HARMONIOUS union of many voices or sounds, CONCERT, hoi tôn s. logoi, the Pythagos doctrine of the MUSIC of the SPHERE, band, orCHESTRA.. but used of a musical instrument in LXXDa.3.5; so Lat. symphonia, of a kind of drum, Isid.Etym.3.22.14, but of a wind instrument, Plin.HN8.157; symphoniae et cymbala strepitusque, Cels.3.18.10; êkouse sumphônias kai Chorôn Ev.Luc.15.25

CHESTREêrios [chraô3] of or from an oracle, oracular, PROPHETIC, Aesch., Eur.; Apollon chrêstêrie author of oracles, Hdt.

chrauô to scrape, graze, WOUND slightly, hon rha te poimên chrausêi Il.; cf. enchrauô, epichraô.

chrêstêrios , a, on, also os, on A.Eu.241: (chraô (B) A): ORACULAR, also APOLLO (Abaddon or Apollyon) chrêstêrie author of ORACLES

If you are composing and singing YOUR OWN SONGS you claim that YOUR songs are superior to the songs and sermons of CHRIST. That belongs to Abaddon or Apollo the FATHER OF THE SEEKER SYSTEM.

Chresis (g5540) khray'-sis; from 5530; employment, i.e. (spec.) sexual intercourse.

For the zeal (jealousy) of thine house (temple) hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psalm 69:9

And Prophetic of Jesus Christ who would be MUSICALLY ASSAULTED:

But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.Ps.22:6

Cherphah (h2781) kher-paw'; from 2778; contumely, disgrace, the pudenda: - rebuke, reproach (-fully), shame.

Charaph (h2778) khaw-raf'; a prim. root; to pull off, i. e. (by impl.) to expose (as by stripping);

The BIBLE associates music with the TYPE of crucifying Christ and the Levitical musicians fulfilled the prophecy trying to make Him sing and dance the Dionysus shuffle. Or music is associated with personal practices or those of the prostitutes or sodomites. This is hardly a recommendation for DOING WORSHIP in the Christian Synagogue which HAS NO PERFORMING OFFICES AVAILABLE.

All contemporaneous literature, along with the Bible, assigns the SOURCE of music to Satan or Lucifer who is the harp-playing prostitute as the king/queen of Tyre.

The Greek world held that a male who would stand up, sing and accompany himself as either DRUNK or PERVERTED.

How, we ask, does MUSIC suddenly overwhelm the end time church INTENDING to SOW DISCORD AMONG BRETHEREN? The prophecy is that it will be Apollo the god of "twanging bow strings, singing arrows, musical harmony, liars and thieves" wo will resurrect the MUSES or LOCUSTS (musical performers) to create a great tribulation in the church.

In Revelation 18 all of the singers, craftsmen, musicins and GRINDERS will go back into hell with the MOTHER GODDESS or holy whore.

THERE IS NO OTHER FACT OR EVEN TRADITION WHICH DISPUTES THIS. How can those FORCING THEIR WAY INTO THE KINGDOM get so much power to PERFORM what is 100% condemned? Scripture says that Satan can perform LYING WONDERS and anyone who claims to defend MUSIC as worship which God only accepts in the PLACE of the human spirit HAS supernatural powers to work LYING WONDERS.

Or less conspiratorial, it just may be BULLIES who know that the church has been CONDITIONED not to question the 'celestial beings.'

Ask yourself: "Why has God or Satan picked me to perform this end time MARK?" God picked Judas whose "judas bag" was for carrying the tongues or reeds of wind instruments. His Greek counterpart musicians were always perverted. Ask: "Why do I want to be identified that way and cause HALF of the members to flee in terror?"

No. Forget it: there "is no other tradition but that music was brought to religion to silence the word of God and was brought be demons or demi-gods."

Ken Sublett

In I Corinthians 12, Paul speaks of Unity in Diversty but the way I read it, it is saying that everyone individually has gifts that are different than anothers. These gifts all contribute to the Spiritual Body. "ONE SPIRITUAL BODY" v12.

Having two absolutely different kinds of worship, especially by what is supposed to be the same spiritual body, is a contradiction not to mention a confusing influence.

And further more, MUSICAL WORSHIP MINISTER in the performance sense is NOT listed as one of the spiritual gifts.

Ken

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IN RESPONSE TO BIG RED’S UNTITLED POST OF September 10 2003, 3:07 AM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Big Red:

I seem to recall someone who’s recently said: “When I typed ‘church of Christ’ into my search engine, I was looking for outreach activities for my youth group. As a long time member of the church of Christ, I am absolutely broken hearted that this is what I found. While I am very discouraged by the words of many on this site….”

Big Red, you don’t appear as being very discouraged at all to me. In fact, you seem to want to continue where Chad left off. If you must insist on going in that same direction, such as writing an unauthorized biography of Donnie Cruz, instead of dealing with real issues confronting the brotherhood, you will end up in the same boat. I should have just let Ms. X battle it out with you and Chad.

Are you through with your dissertation? Take a deep breath. You can relax now. Sorry, but I find your arguments for allowing CULTURE to affect and upgrade the truth and the church lacking in depth and substance. God’s truth and His church should NEVER be modified regardless of culture. Your main problem is that you don’t trust God in His infinite wisdom for His truth to be adaptable to any cultural setting. Just as Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, there is absolutely no reason for the truth to change. If anything should change, it is man’s behavior and attitude—not God’s truth or His commands.

I do not intend to waste my time discussing the same old tales about me. I do not know you. I can’t even address your name. At least Chad [?] is Chad…. But my desire is for you to not misquote me. Here’s what you should have fully quoted from what I said:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[But I might add that I honestly cannot bring myself to tell someone, “Praise God for you are my brother,” when I and many others know fully well that this brother has alienated other brethren and has caused havoc and division in the church—and still continues to do so!!!!]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In that complete statement, there was no denying about “you are my brother,” was there, Big Red? You should have paid attention to the rest of the statement. In other words, could you, with all honesty and sincerity “PRAISE GOD” for someone who has alienated brethren and who is still alienating other brethren?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Perhaps, I should have stated it a little more clearly as:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[“You are my brother. And you, my brother, have alienated many of our brethren and have caused havoc and division in the church. And you, my brother, are still doing it. But I need to do what the Bible tells me, which is: ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.’ (Romans 16:17). ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.’ (I Corinthians 1:10). So, brother, I am going to ‘mark’ you as a church divider. Brother, you need to be aware that I love you as a brother but with all honesty and sincerity, I CANNOT PRAISE GOD FOR your sowing-discord ability.”]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Donnie
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Speaking of REAL ISSUES (and many may not have heard of some sad and very alarming news in the brotherhood that): the Oak Hills Church of Christ in San Antonio, Texas, has changed its name to Oak Hills Church (dropping the name of Christ). Excerpt from its website (by Max Lucado, August 2003):
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. . .
We have a: Spatial Barrier.

Our fifth major initiative will, hopefully, serve to lower this barrier: simultaneous Sunday morning services in the South Room and a fourth service on Sunday night. Let's use the new "South Room" to host worship services concurrent with the second and third service in the main Worship Center. A video of the first service message will be shown and an opportunity to worship will be provided. We will begin this gathering in late fall 2003. In early 2004, we will launch a Sunday evening service. I will present the same message from Sunday morning and we will target twenty and thirty year olds.

Recognizing the power of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches hearts.

Motivated by a desire to touch more souls, we feel it is wise to use this tool. The three Sunday morning services in the main Worship Center will remain non-instrumental. In this way, ample choices will be offered to all members.
. . .

Also ask Him to help us as we lower: Social barriers.

Some people find the name "Church of Christ" to be an insurmountable barrier. Scripture urges us to remove cultural hindrances while remaining scripturally true.
. . .

"find common ground...that I might bring them to Christ." (I Cor. 9:23) Let's seek to remove any barrier that would hinder a person from hearing the Gospel. Our seventh initiative calls for an alteration of our name.

We can reach more souls by modifying "Oak Hills Church of Christ" to "Oak Hills Church". To reach more souls for Christ. While we deeply appreciate our heritage in the Churches of Christ, we recognize the hindrance the name creates for some. … We recognize the emotional struggle this decision spawns for some.
. . .
In the early nineties, our Lord called us to be a force for unity among San Antonio churches. We, for the first time, "swapped pulpits" with Trinity Baptist Church. This was a major move and we came to it cautiously. I remember Charles Prince preaching on the topic of Christian unity and urging us to "not consult our fears." We didn't and God blessed the church for it.
. . .
Over the last few weeks He has moved in great force again. God has given us our vision. The call to be a city-impacting church has come through loud and clear. Our elders enjoy an uncommon unity and conviction. The ministers, without exception, enthusiastically embrace this vision. Our marching orders are in hand.
. . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ]]]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The latest “contemporary worship service” guide (September 7, 2003) quoted the following:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[The power is not in the prayer, it’s in the One who hears it. Max Lucado, “He Still Moves Stones”]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In the Madison Marcher, September 3, 2003, “Preacher Potpourri” stated:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice.]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Max Lucado made the following statements in August, 2003
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[Our fifth major initiative will, hopefully, serve to lower this barrier: simultaneous Sunday morning services in the South Room and a fourth service on Sunday night. . . .

Recognizing the power of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches hearts. . . .

We can reach more souls by modifying "Oak Hills Church of Christ" to "Oak Hills Church".

… The call to be a city-impacting church has come through loud and clear. Our elders enjoy an uncommon unity and conviction. The ministers, without exception, enthusiastically embrace this vision. Our marching orders are in hand.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now—what about the Madison Church [of Christ]?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Certain elders [speaking for the eldership] have made a statement to me that the Madison Church is never going the “instrumental music” route. The WORSHIP LEADER is committed to remaining “a cappella”—although rhythmical handclapping while singing, which renders singing no longer a cappella, is allowed. (Mr. Keith Lancaster is founder and chairman of Acappella Ministries and producer of the singing group ACAPPELLA.) So, we should not be concerned about “instrumental music”—for now, anyway.

But let us note Lucado’s remarks on the “marching orders,” the simultaneous services, the power of contemporary music, Oak Hills’ elders enjoying “an uncommon unity and conviction”—aren’t they reminders of Madison’s recent upheaval? Now, the recent announcement of “informing the community of a choice”! What is this leading to? What are we to expect next? Are they, again, not telling us?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie Cruz

Ok, here's the deal.

1) Churches of Christ are autonomous. What one does is not the perview of others. They can comment (and they will), but they can't do anything. If Oak Hill wants to drop Church of Christ, they can.

2) Most conservative Churches of Christ have written of Lucado and Oak Hill long ago. According to them, this is just confirming what they already thought.

Phil,
In this post, you have pointed out the largest problem with segregation and denominationalism.

It should NOT be referred to as "churches" of Christ (plural), it is only the "church" of Christ (singular).

Matthew 16:18.

Larry.

I guess that depends on if you recognize that Churches of Christ are a denomination.

Phil,

Both of your statements above were accurately stated—congregational autonomy and Max Lucado’s liberal views and popularity (the author with “more than 28 million books in print”). But there are more implications and complications—if not serious repercussions—to “just confirming what they already thought” in the body of Christ, in the brotherhood.

Donnie

I first off wish to apologize for not fully quoting you, although even if I had my point of view would not have changed. God loves all. He doesn't pick and chose. Just who don't you love, that quote, "has alienated brethren & who is still alienating other brethren"? I mean you wish to let names be known on this web site. Fair is fair. And could it be that the person that you disapprove of is because of your own perception of the person? How do you know that this person alienates people, and continues to do so? Even if this person does alienate people shouldn't you hate the sin, and love the sinner? hmm.. which would lead us back to you saying Praise God for you are my Brother! Wow, full circle there. Yet again I question where your heart is? Do you really have love for this church? If so why is it that you never state anything positive in your "weekly reports"? And yet again you still aren't a member so how are you even a concerned member? Did God himself come down and grant Donnie Cruz the gift of knowing what is approved and what isn't approved? (such as songs to sing, how service should be run, etc.) If so what did he look like?

A question I really want answered is what truth has Madison changed, and what commands has Madison fallen away from? I mean it’s your whole support for doing what you are, so please do explain for us all...

I would also like to point out that you are still running from the questions that Chad originally asked you that made you look bad. By saying "I do not intend to waste my time discussing the same old tales about me" and "... writing an unauthorized biography of Donnie Cruz". By all means I don't want to miss quote you again, so if what you said there wasn't you running from the questions then what exactly was it?

You say that you were absolutely broken hearted when you heard someone say "When I typed ‘church of Christ’ into my search engine, I was looking for outreach activities for my youth group.", and yet you have a web site that is a bad representation of the Madison Church of Christ. Have you thought about how the Madison members feel when someone does a search for their congregation and find this site? You would always point figures to why people left Madison for different reasons, and yet this site sure doesn't help get anyone in the doors or keep them in either, now does it? In fact when I first viewed this site is was a huge turn off, as it would be to anyone that comes across it. So yet again you are hurting Madison, and yourself. Do you really love Madison? I mean honestly? If so why aren't you a member, so that you can actually call yourself a concerned member? Why don't you talk to the heads of Madison about your disapprovals instead of posting a site, and making Madison look bad?

Finally, who are you to say that I don’t trust God? You said it yourself “I do not know you.”, so how can you make such an accusation as that? I have great trust in God, and I most certainly know the Jesus will stay the same forever and ever. I never said that he changed, so please don’t put words into my mouth! You cry because I didn’t fully quote you and yet you have the nerve to put words in my mouth and tell me I have no trust!

I still pray that you will find the light, and stray away from the place the devil has placed you. I love you brother, and so does God. God bless.

Big Red

P.S. Since you cried about it in your last post, my real name is Craig. Happy? I don't know why Big Red isn't good enough for you.

To Craig,

Yes, I am happy that I am communicating with a real person—not a planet or a piece of chewing gum or whatever. As you know, it’s quite cumbersome to have to address someone as he/she, him/her, his/hers, etc. Thank you. Now, without my asking you specific questions, please tell the curious readers like me a little more about yourself. I would like to know you a little better. (You sound young and quite persistent.) Since you’ve gone this far, is this site still a huge turnoff to you as when you first viewed it? Just what has sustained your interest to this point?

As for me, I am a member of Christ’s church: a very concerned member. As I’ve mentioned in some of my posts that you haven’t found yet, I have considered Madison my home congregation since past the mid 80’s. [That’s the reason why some “anonymous” person (“member that attends Madison”—September 4, 2003, 4:17 PM) wasted his/her time “searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's” for another anonymous—ME!] I don’t know why you haven’t figured this out yet: I was there when the entire “MUSICAL” WORSHIP package was introduced—meaning the WORSHIP LEADER, the Choir with the loud microphones and their performances of “singy-clappy” contemporary and feel-good “praise” music. I was there when the upheaval occurred. I was there when the congregation was told to “get over it; we must move on.” I was there when several men felt it best to honorably resign from the eldership for the church’s sake. I was there … were you, Craig?

By the way, Craig, the preceding paragraph should give you plenty of hints concerning the changes at Madison, as well as the alienation resulting from them. And frankly, you still MISQUOTED me. I said of the alienator:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[“You are my brother. And you, my brother, have alienated many of our brethren and have caused havoc and division in the church. And you, my brother, are still doing it. But I need to do what the Bible tells me, which is: ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.’ (Romans 16:17). ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.’ (I Corinthians 1:10). So, brother, I am going to ‘mark’ you as a church divider. Brother, you need to be aware that I love you as a brother but with all honesty and sincerity, I CANNOT PRAISE GOD FOR your sowing-discord ability.”]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was very specific in saying, “I love you as a brother.” And I specifically said, “I CANNOT PRAISE GOD FOR your sowing-discord ability.” I honestly cannot praise God for “the act of sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord.” How much more do I have to emphasize that?

You also MISQUOTED another one: [[[[“When I typed ‘church of Christ’ into my search engine, I was looking for outreach activities for my youth group. As a long time member of the church of Christ, I am absolutely broken hearted that this is what I found. While I am very discouraged by the words of many on this site….”]]]]

The entire quote above can be found in the thread, “Clapping is perfectly fine.” It was posted by TD and titled “Terry- Thank you!” dated August 4 2003, 5:15 PM. Now, I’m wondering if Big Red or Craig knows TD. Anyway, it was TD (not Donnie) who was “absolutely broken hearted that this [website] is what [TD] found.” Now, Craig [like TD] is echoing the same by saying, “… when I first viewed this site it was a huge turn off.”

One final misquote on what you thought I said about your trust in God. Here’s the correct quote of my statement: “Your main problem is that you don’t trust God in His infinite wisdom for His truth to be adaptable to any cultural setting.” Please let me know if I need to explain that to you.

What about Chad? You said: “I would also like to point out that you are still running from the questions that Chad originally asked you that made you look bad.” O, yeah, as if I had had sleepless nights because of Chad’s questions. I vaguely remember the questions that were lost in the middle of his repeated accusations and judgments against me [kind of like what Big Red is doing now].

BIG Red, this is all the time I have for now. I’m so overwhelmed by the number of questions just in the preceding post alone. I counted about 20 statements ending with a question mark—and just didn’t know where to begin. But I know you already have the answers to most of your questions about me.

Donnie

To Craig,

Yes, I am happy that I am communicating with a real person—not a planet or a piece of chewing gum or whatever. As you know, it’s quite cumbersome to have to address someone as he/she, him/her, his/hers, etc. Thank you. Now, without my asking you specific questions, please tell the curious readers like me a little more about yourself. I would like to know you a little better. (You sound young and quite persistent.) Since you’ve gone this far, is this site still a huge turnoff to you as when you first viewed it? Just what has sustained your interest to this point?

As for me, I am a member of Christ’s church: a very concerned member. As I’ve mentioned in some of my posts that you haven’t found yet, I have considered Madison my home congregation since past the mid 80’s. [That’s the reason why some “anonymous” person (“member that attends Madison”—September 4, 2003, 4:17 PM) wasted his/her time “searching Madison directories all the way back into the '70's” for another anonymous—ME!] I don’t know why you haven’t figured this out yet: I was there when the entire “MUSICAL” WORSHIP package was introduced—meaning the WORSHIP LEADER, the Choir with the loud microphones and their performances of “singy-clappy” contemporary and feel-good “praise” music. I was there when the upheaval occurred. I was there when the congregation was told to “get over it; we must move on.” I was there when several men felt it best to honorably resign from the eldership for the church’s sake. I was there … were you, Craig?

By the way, Craig, the preceding paragraph should give you plenty of hints concerning the changes at Madison, as well as the alienation resulting from them. And frankly, you still MISQUOTED me. I said of the alienator:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[“You are my brother. And you, my brother, have alienated many of our brethren and have caused havoc and division in the church. And you, my brother, are still doing it. But I need to do what the Bible tells me, which is: ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.’ (Romans 16:17). ‘Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.’ (I Corinthians 1:10). So, brother, I am going to ‘mark’ you as a church divider. Brother, you need to be aware that I love you as a brother but with all honesty and sincerity, I CANNOT PRAISE GOD FOR your sowing-discord ability.”]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was very specific in saying, “I love you as a brother.” And I specifically said, “I CANNOT PRAISE GOD FOR your sowing-discord ability.” I honestly cannot praise God for “the act of sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord … sowing discord.” How much more do I have to emphasize that?

You also MISQUOTED another one: [[[[“When I typed ‘church of Christ’ into my search engine, I was looking for outreach activities for my youth group. As a long time member of the church of Christ, I am absolutely broken hearted that this is what I found. While I am very discouraged by the words of many on this site….”]]]]

The entire quote above can be found in the thread, “Clapping is perfectly fine.” It was posted by TD and titled “Terry- Thank you!” dated August 4 2003, 5:15 PM. Now, I’m wondering if Big Red or Craig knows TD. Anyway, it was TD (not Donnie) who was “absolutely broken hearted that this [website] is what [TD] found.” Now, Craig [like TD] is echoing the same by saying, “… when I first viewed this site it was a huge turn off.”

One final misquote on what you thought I said about your trust in God. Here’s the correct quote of my statement: “Your main problem is that you don’t trust God in His infinite wisdom for His truth to be adaptable to any cultural setting.” Please let me know if I need to explain that to you.

What about Chad? You said: “I would also like to point out that you are still running from the questions that Chad originally asked you that made you look bad.” O, yeah, as if I had had sleepless nights because of Chad’s questions. I vaguely remember the questions that were lost in the middle of his repeated accusations and judgments against me [kind of like what Big Red is doing now].

BIG Red, this is all the time I have for now. I’m so overwhelmed by the number of questions just in the preceding post alone. I counted about 20 statements ending with a question mark—and just didn’t know where to begin. But I know you already have the answers to most of your questions about me.

Donnie

MAX LUCADO of the Oak Hills Church (formerly Oak Hills Church of Christ) is one of the prominent CHANGE AGENTS in the church today. Please check this out: http://www.parable.com/upwords/item_AK08010168.htm. You will notice this: Oak Hills 101: A Purpose Driven Church (Cassette) by Max Lucado, price—$23.00. (Remember Tom Haddon visiting RICK WARREN’S Saddleback Community Church, which he described as a purpose-driven church?) His website describes him in “UpWords” (his teaching ministry) as a prolific writer “with more than 28 million books in print.”

RUBEL SHELLY is the full-time Preaching Minister of “Family of God at Woodmont Church” or “Woodmont Hills Family of God” (formerly Woodmont Hills Church of Christ). He is joined by JOHN MARK HICKS (Minister of Adult Education) and JOHN O. YORK (also Preaching Minister)—both of whom teach at Lipscomb University, and by MRS. JOAN GREGORY (Minister of Caring Services).

JEFF WALLING of Providence Road Church of Christ, Charlotte, NC, in “Youth Program: Winterfest” states the following: [[[WINTERFEST: “hot-bed of apostasy and digression that any spiritually wise parent would be sure to keep from influencing their children.” JEFF WALLING, a PROMINENT CHANGE AGENT, and … WINTERFEST SPEAKER is one whose acerbic (sarcastic) attacks against the Lord's church are well documented. Walling was a regular speaker on the now DEFUNCT Jubilee. Walling used the Jubilee forum as a platform to spew forth his viciously irreverent rhetoric and denigration of the pattern of worship for the New Testament church.]]] In “JEFF WALLING AND THE INSTRUMENT”—he is “saying to the YOUNG PEOPLE in the churches of Christ, INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC in WORSHIP are just a MATTER OF OPINION . . . has been making this argument for years . . . is doing the same today in youth rallies and lecture series.”

What do these men in “the church” have in common? Shelly is ashamed of what the “church of Christ” means to the Nashville community; Walling was a featured lecturer at Madison last year; Madison’s contemporary musical worship program (September 7, 2003) has just quoted from Max Lucado’s “He Still Moves Stones.”

MAX LUCADO has stated:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[[[We can reach more souls by modifying "Oak Hills Church of Christ" to "Oak Hills Church". To reach more souls for Christ. While we deeply appreciate our heritage in the Churches of Christ, we recognize the hindrance the name creates for some. … We recognize the emotional struggle this decision spawns for some.]]]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This means “bye-bye” to me: “… we deeply appreciate our heritage in the Churches of Christ”; we are no longer “Oak Hills Church of Christ”; and we are now the “Oak Hills Church.” I think there is a word for all this: APOSTASY!!! So, when you think of famous names as Shelly, Walling, Lucado and others (not mentioned above), it’s APOSTASY all over again!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donnie Cruz


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please see the article, “THE CRUCIFORM CHURCH” (by John H. Waddey) posted on September 12, 2003 in the thread, “To Change or Not to Change.” You will be enlightened! Thanks!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM A PRECEDING POST: “Just a Concerned Member” (September 11 2003, 3:10 PM )
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
. . . But let us note Lucado’s remarks on the “marching orders,” the simultaneous services, the power of contemporary music, Oak Hills’ elders enjoying “an uncommon unity and conviction”—aren’t they reminders of Madison’s recent upheaval? [And] now, the recent announcement [from the Madison Marcher, September 3, 2003] of “informing the community of a choice”! What is this leading to? What are we to expect next? Are they, again, not telling us?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
FROM A POST AT TOP OF THREAD: SHOW ME ONE SCRIPTURE STATING: THAT IN
THE ASSEMBLY OF THE SAINTS IS A “WORSHIP” SERVICE (August 28 2003, 4:18 AM)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
. . . I was in the 10:30am assembly at Madison one Sunday and suddenly this musical partying began which really shocked me and many others. … Not many realized then but rather underestimated the impact … that it would bring division in a congregation or cause many members to leave. Surely, this was not to happen at Madison—a leading congregation of the church of Christ in the world. . . .
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

====================================================
CULTURE-DRIVEN CHANGES TO “IMPROVE UPON GOD’S WILL” FOR THE CHURCH IN
MADISON ARE STILL IN PROGRESS: “INFORMING THE COMMUNITY OF A CHOICE.”
====================================================
While the following events are not in the same order chronologically, parallelism can be drawn between the Oak Hills Church (formerly Oak Hills Church of Christ) and the Madison Church:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
MAX LUCADO SAYS: SIMULTANEOUS S SERVICES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
The Madison Church of Christ, then, had two “worship” services being conducted at 10:30 A.M. concurrently. The MAJORITY of the original 10:30 attendants [probably between 900-1000 strong] met in the auditorium—they were still what would be referred to NOW as “the traditional” group (and not different than the “also traditional” 8:00 AM group at the time). The much smaller charismatic, contemporary music-driven group was meeting somewhere else. [I didn’t even know where—and I was under the impression, then, that they were disabled or incapacitated and couldn’t go upstairs; I didn’t know they numbered at about 300—the MINORITY.] The story continues as related above—“I was in the 10:30 assembly at Madison one Sunday and suddenly….” With feelings of being forced against their will, of betrayal and alienation, may folks left. Today, attendance at the 10:30 contemporary musical assembly ranges between 800 and 900.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
MAX LUCADO SAYS: ELDERS ENJOYING “AN UNCOMMON UNITY AND CONVICTION”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
I am going to let Madison’s own leaders speak for themselves and explain the employment of the current WORSHIP LEADER [as one former member has termed it: a 20/20 hindsight] and explain the resignations of several elders in months following. (Interestingly, some congregations now have so many leaders, in addition to the elders. Some congregations have current elders selecting new elders of a kind. Preaching and other ministers are also leaders. WORSHIP LEADERS are also leaders, and in some instances have control over the eldership. No wonder, there’s much confusion in the church today!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
MAX LUCADO SAYS: “OUR MARCHING ORDERS ARE IN HAND”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
“Over the last few weeks He has moved in great force again. God has given us our vision. The call to be a city-impacting church has come through loud and clear. … The ministers, without exception, enthusiastically embrace this vision.”

This reminds me of the time when the Madison body was given an ultimatum: “GET OVER IT; WE MUST MOVE ON!” That was an order!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~.
MAX LUCADO SAYS: “THE POWER OF CONTEMPORARY MUSIC”
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“Recognizing the power of contemporary music, these new assemblies will be instrumental. A soft keyboard beneath an altar call, the sound of a cello during communion service...these tools enhance outreach. After fifteen years and several thousand sermons, I am convinced instrumentation reaches hearts. … Motivated by a desire to touch more souls, we feel it is wise to use this tool. The three Sunday morning services in the main Worship Center will remain non-instrumental. In this way, ample choices will be offered to all members.”

Galatians 5:22,23 mentions the FRUIT [singular] of the Spirit to consist of all of “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance”; and I’m afraid that enjoyment of feel-good contemporary music is not a part of the worship of the Father in spirit and in truth. In other words, God is not interested in MUSICAL WORSHIP. Besides, Romans 1:16 says—“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the POWER of God unto salvation to every one that believeth….” The POWER of God toward salvation is in the TRUTH—not in CONTEMPORARY MUSIC!

In I Corinthians chapters 12-14, the SPECIFIC and UNIQUE spiritual gifts are listed—whether applicable to the apostolic era only or throughout the life of the church. Nowhere is music talent listed as a SPIRITUAL gift of a Christian. “God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers …”—again, there is no mention of the designated WORSHIP LEADER or WORSHIP MINISTER.
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REMINDER FROM THE MADISON MARCHER (September 3, 2003)
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[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are planning some wonderful things for the church over the next few months. Listen for the announcement of special activities and plan on participating.

We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]]]

Is this what we call UNITY in DIVERSITY? I don’t think so. It’s more like an attempt at “UNION IN SEGREGATION.”

Donnie Cruz

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SERMON: “DO YOU WANT TO WORSHIP HERE?” (Posted September 4 2003, 5:38 AM)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ONLY PORTIONS OF THIS SERMON DELIVERED AT 8:00 A.M. ON AUG. 31, 2003, WERE POSTED ON THE ABOVE DATE. Because of the significant issues related to MUSIC in “worship,” the attempt here is to compare and contrast the content and delivery of the message on a few sub-topics as applicable to each of the two (2) contrasting audiences: the “original” group meeting at 8:00 a.m. and the “contemporary” group meeting at 10:30 a.m.

ACKNOWLEDGMENTS: The following is an “unofficial” transcript of “portions” of the taped sermon that was delivered by Dr. C. Bruce White in both assemblies—each of which will be properly identified below. Both tapes of the complete sermon from both services may be ordered via the receptionist’s desk at the Madison Church building.
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PART A.1—8:00 A.M.—“AND I MAY LIKE TO JUST KIND OF SIT AND SING A SONG”
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”. . . [Paul] He’s been talking about division and party spirits…. We can have differences of opinion; we can have differences in judgment; we can like or dislike things differently. We might enjoy one thing and another person might enjoy another thing, but we cannot afford to party ourselves around those things. You know, I may not like someone clapping at a song. That may not be in my comfort zone. And I may like to just kind of sit and sing a song, you know, as we sing it and not get animated with it. And it’s OK for me to hold that. But it’s not okay for me to get four or five other people and say, ‘Do you like them clapping to a song? I don’t like that. Do you like that? No, I don’t like that. O, good, come on with me, and let’s find somebody else that don’t like it, too. And let’s get us this bigger group as we can that don’t like it. And let’s just sit together and be miserable and not like it.’ And let me tell you, folks, you’ve just interfered with your worship. You cannot approach God with that kind of an attitude and spirit. And you may have interfered with someone coming to worship. I can like something better than you like it or I can dislike something that you like. But we don’t have to party up and begin to divide the body. And Paul warns against that because it is going to cause difficulty in your worship. Then he talks about the Lord’s Supper….”
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PART A.2—10:30 A.M.—“LOOK AT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO CLAP IN SONGS AND YOU DON’T”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“. . . [Paul to the church in Corinth], ‘When you come together to church, there are divisions among you’—party spirits and division. If I want to worship here—not if it’s all fussing and fighting; and my side, your side! And if attitude exists like that, I don’t. Let me tell you something—we can have differences. I can have a different opinion on something than you have. I can like something that you don’t like or I may not like something you like. And if it has nothing to do with what the Bible says, then, I need to just look at you and say, OK, I don’t agree with you, we don’t agree on that; but let it go. I’m going to tell you something. You may like clapping and singing. Some other brother may not. He may just want to sing the song and not have clapping in it. As long as we leave it there, it is not going to [---] a thing to God. It’s not going to offend God. It’s not going to disrupt the Holy Spirit in either brother’s life as long as I say, OK, you like to clap in song. I don’t like clapping songs. So, what? But I’m going to tell you something. When you say, I like clapping in songs, and I know this other brother that don’t, so, I’m going to find some other people that like to clap in songs. Do you like to clap in songs? O, yeah, come on over here with me. Do you like…? O, yeah, I’m going to find 15 or 20 that like to clap in songs, and then I’m going to say to that brother, ‘You’re wrong and you’ve got to repent before God because: look at all the people that like to clap in songs and you don’t.’ Brother, that’s wrong. That offends God and that drives the Holy Spirit out of our assembly because the Holy Spirit is not going to have anything to do with party spirit and division. I can like something that you don’t like. You can like something I don’t like. And we could still be brothers in the Spirit. [Applause begins.] As long … as long as we’re not [applause continues for several seconds] … as long as we’re not conjuring together one little group to go against everybody else. And Paul said, brethren, that can’t go on in the assembly because folks are not going to want to come and worship where that’s going on. And then he talks about the Lord’s Supper….”
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PART B.1—8:00 A.M.—OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS; DO NOT CRITICIZE … THE MUSIC PROGRAM
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” … The division over gifts—fussing, and jealous and envious of each other about the spiritual gifts that were given by the Spirit … all those gifts come from the same Holy Spirit…. Celebrate each other’s gift.”

[At this point, Dr. White mentions examples of gifts as shepherding, speaking and leading singing. I’ll look again in the Bible to see about “leading singing,” and I’m assuming he means more than just a “song starter”—i.e., rather a “music director” or “WORSHIP LEADER”—the one that oversees the entire “worship” program or one that “calls” (mediates) everyone to the throne of God. He also has something to say about criticizing the same: the MUSIC PROGRAM, the preacher and the shepherds. … The rest of the sermon is not included in this transcript.]
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PART B.2—10:30 A.M.—GOD HAS GIVEN SUCH A [SPIRITUAL] GIFT TO KEITH LANCASTER FOR MUSIC
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“What a blessing it is that God has given such a gift to Keith Lancaster for music and leading us in singing and to all these other guys that step in and help us in that area of music. Aren’t you thankful that they have those gifts? And praise God for them. For our deacons, for our Sunday school teachers and our ladies … just exercising their gifts. And I don’t know … I’m not naïve; I’m kind of stupid but not naïve. I know that we have probably some friction somewhere—these ministries—but thank God, I don’t know about it. I just see them all working together, doing things for the glory of God. … Just praise God for the gifts.”
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PART C.1—8:00 A.M.—BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE ERROR IN PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT
OF MUSIC IN WORSHIP SERVICE THAN THERE IS IN SITTING AND NOT SINGING.
====================================================
“… ‘I will sing with my spirit and sing with my mind.’ O, this singing with zeal and teaching. Wednesday night, Keith brought to our attention that we are ‘to admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.’ We’re singing a message to each other. We’re not just mocking words. When we’re singing these songs, we’re not just going through a ritual and some of you get so used to that you don’t even sing anymore. You just sit there. And I can’t find the passage that says what God wants is you to come into my house and sit there. The Spirit of God moves us. We sing with spirit. We sing with understanding. We admonish one another. We sing these songs in praise to God, and in teaching and encouragement to one another. You can’t do that just sitting there. And I tell you, I don’t want to hear anybody that does not sing in a worship service say anything about a group that plays in it. Because there is no more error in playing an instrument of music in worship service than there is in sitting and not singing. Amen? Both violate the spirit of the New Testament. So you see, you sing with vigor and zeal in teaching….”
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PART C.2—10:30 A.M.—“I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR SOME GREAT PRESENTATION FROM SOMEBODY ON WHAT’S
WRONG WITH INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN WORSHIP, IF THAT FELLOW DOESN’T SING IN THE ASSEMBLY.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“… He also said to sing with the spirit and understanding. Sing with enthusiasm. Keith brought to our attention Wednesday night that we’re to sing in admonishment to one another and teaching one another, that our singing is not just to God—it’s to one another as well. And so our singing has to be not just extended to God but also to each other. We ought to pay attention to what we’re singing so that we’re singing a message to one another. We’re singing a message to the Lord. But we are to sing. And I’m going to tell you something. I do not want to hear some great presentation from somebody on what’s wrong with instruments of music in worship, if that fellow doesn’t sing in the assembly [Applause!] because both are a violation of the New Testament principles. The New Testament [---] says nothing about instruments of worship, instruments of music in a worship service in the first century. But it does say: sing. And, so, if you are not singing, don’t talk about instruments because you’re as wrong as the person that uses it. Sing with spirit and understanding. I’m to praise God with my voice. Does it have to be a good voice? I hope not. Buck Dozier hasn’t got a chance [Audience laughing!].
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Will these worship issues be ever resolved?

Let’s discuss!

Donnie Cruz

Count it all Joy, Donnie, you are fulfilling prophecy. But, watch it, people who would infiltrate and steal can go to MOCKERY and RIDICULE and cause some weak creature to do you harm. Right now they are sticks and stones.

---------------------------------------------------

BRUCE WHITE: PART C.2--10:30 A.M.--"I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR SOME GREAT PRESENTATION FROM SOMEBODY ON WHAT'S WRONG WITH INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN WORSHIP, if THAT FELLOW doesn't sing in the assembly."

KEN SUBLETT: I TOLD YOU THAT LAUGHING AN APPLAUSE OR CLAPPING IS A SHOW OF CONTEMPT or just "whistling in the cometary" or tilted off center by the MOCKERY.

If everything that ALL of the churches of Christ were 100% wrong that would not authorize INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC.

It is pretty astounding but prophetic that a RHETORICIAN or SOPHIST (meaning hypocrite, sorcerer, parasite) can base the AUTHORITY of the Bible on what Donnie Cruz does or does not do during PAGAN WORSHIP. Donnie knows that church is school of the Bible and the PARASITES were waiting for food outside.

There is NO COMMAND to sing: the DIRECT COMMAND is to TEACH (Preach) to ONE ANOTHER using (1) "That which is written" (Rom 15) and that is by the Spirit of Christ (1 Pet 1:11); the SPIRIT (Eph 5) which is the WORD OF CHRIST (Jn 6:63); the Word of Christ (Col 3) and the GRIEVING OUT HYMNS in order to sing with Jesus in the congregation.

If BRUCE WHITE served DILL PICKLES (the fruit of the vine) for the Lord's Supper, Bruce White would be sinning. Donnie would not eat pickles and drink vinegar in order NOT to be a sinner.

Every literate student of the Bible, history and the universal views of 2,000 years of church history that singing PRAISE SONGS and playing INSTRUMENTS was the practice ONLY of prostitutes or sodomites in the "religious sense." Donnie may uniquely grasp that SINGING erotic songs is not a LAUGHING matter. (Laughter was always a way to show contempt to superiors: You hired on as COURT JESTER, BUFFOON OR flute-player To make the COURT happy so that they didn't REVOLT at the revolting spectacle.

....hupAULO , play on the flute in accompaniment,

Similar Latin
...parasi-tor . a-ri, v. dep. [id.] , to PLAY the PARASITE, to SPONGE

Similar Greek
....kômOIDO-loicheô , play the parasite

Singing and Playing in one Hebrew word includes "Playing the flute, stealing your inheritance, pollution and PROSTITUTION." Music is uniquely associated with PROSTITUTES and SODOMITES. I don't see what is so funny about CHOOSING theatrical performers to STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE which even in POLLUTED and PERVERTED JUDASIM could NEVER happen in the Type of the body or Church of Christ. Is that a MARK?

If you point the WAGGING FINGER and HISSING laughter at someone else then MAYBE the members will not remember that Jesus Christ died so that we can go into the HOLY PLACE, one at a time, to meet God without a MEDIATING PREACHER OF UNTRUTH or a MUSICAL MEDIATOR who would utterly POLLUTE even the earthly temple. BUT THE GIG IS UP.

For instance, Rubel Shelly grasp at TIMOTHY to prove that the LOCATED EVANGELIST is also the LOCATED MISSIONARY. What he says about TIMOTHY is untrue. Furthermore, if you use him as the authority for a STAND UP MOCKER then you have hired yourself a PARASITE.

http://www.piney.com/Located-Missionary.html

Because we are STRICT CONSTRUCTIONISTS and do not take liberties with the Constitution or the Bible, we just naturally read the REST OF THE STORY because YOUR CULTURE or YOUR problems never permits you to TRUMP Christ the Spirit who had the power to reveal a COUNTER CULTURAL system of Bible study. When TAKING OFF THE BLINDERS we find that Paul told Timothy that he must WORK which to Paul meant with TRAVAIL: a MINISTER slaves so that he can GIVE to those who need charity. We have collected some other proof that MOCKING PRIESTS have no authority to, as Paul said, STEAL from the temples for preaching false doctrine.

The second word Paul commanded for Timothy was CHARITY. That meant to WORK while the others were working so that you could PURCHASE the food for the poor on their way to work in the mornings. Paul FIRED the DOCTORS OF THE LAW and Paul said that HIS EXAMPLE was a DIRECT COMMAND. Those who RODE ON THE BACKS OF THE WIDOWS AND POOR AND LAUGHED AT THEIR BETTERS (In Thessalonia) would be MARKED and DISFELLOWSHIPPED.

Clement in Pedagogue Three: HERE IS THE ETERNAL ANTI-CHRIST CARNAL SYSTEM:

"And these women (or effeminate) are carried about over the temples, sacrificing and practicing DIVINATION day by day, spending their time with fortune-tellers,
..and BEGGING PRIESTS,
..and disreputable old women;
....and they keep up OLD WIVES whisperings over their cups,

"learning CHARMS and INCANTATIONS from SOOTHSAYERS (singers, musicians), to the ruin of the nuptial bonds. (This perfectly defines CIRCE from which we get CHURCH. Circe seduced with MUSIC which were musical inCHANTS

"And some men THEY KEEP; by others they ARE KEPT; and others are promised them by the DIVINERS. [a "musical minister" {an oxymoron} is an enchanter, soothsayers, a KEPT person)
..They know not that they are CHEATING themselves, and giving up themselves as a vessel of PLEASURE to those that wish to indulge in WANTONNESS; and exchanging their purity for the foulest OUTRAGE, they think what is the most shameful ruin a GREAT STROKE of BUSINESS (Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute was MARKED as a TRAFFICKER OF MUSIC to seduce traders.)
....And there are many MINISTERS to this meretricious licentiousness, INSINUATING themselves, one from one quarter, another from another.
......For the licentious RUSH readily into uncleanness, LIKE SWINE rushing to that part of the hold of the ship which is depressed.

AFTER Circe, the holy whore of Revelation 18 had SEDUCED the strangers with music and drugs, she turned them into SWINE. Then, she could LIVE OFF THE PIGS and the only thing she had to do was FEED them with DUNG PATTY CAKES. (Jesus cast out the musical mourning team LIKE DUNG)

The rhetoricians sOPHISts (Serpents in Revelation) also used CRAFTSMEN or Techne. They IMPROVISED new style sof worship in order to EMPOWER their SORCERY and, like CIRCE, just be PARASITES.

CLEMENT WARNED ABOUT OPEN MEMBERSHIP (like Circe) because the WOLVES would surely love to INFILTRATE and DIVERT. Because they are PARASITES they wait for a healthy host and the LEEP ON and push their nostrils into the blood stream and SUCK IT DRY with "ministries, staff, singers, musicians, actors (hypocrites-parasites) and a new LIGHTING and SOUND system.

..."Whence the Scripture most strenuously exhorts, "Introduce NOT every one into thy HOUSE, for the snares of the CRAFTY (rhetoricians, sophists for pay) are many." And in another place, "Let JUST men be thy guests, and in the fear of the Lord let thy boast remain."
.....Away with fornication. "For know this well," says the apostle, "that no fornicator, or unclean person, or covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."

OF WOMEN IN THE TEMPLES:

...But these women delight in intercourse with the EFFEMINATE. And CROWDS of abominable creatures (kinai/dej) flow in, of UNBRIDLED TONGUE, filthy in body, filthy in language; men enough for lewd OFFICES, ministers of adultery, GIGGLING and WHISPERING,
....and shamelessly making through their NOSES sounds of lewdness and fornication to provoke lust, endeavoring to please by lewd words and attitudes, inciting to LAUGHTER, the PRECURSOR of FORNICATION. [Like a MUSICAL BAND]

WE ARE THERE: the church is staffed with rhetoricians, sOPHISts (serpents), singers, musicians and the CRAFTSMEN. Remember that Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute was in the garden of Eden with string, wind and percussion instruments. As Jesus said of those who SPEAK ON THEIR OWN, they were sons of the DEVIL. Judas also, was indwelled with Satan and the JUDAS BAG was for "carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments" of the perverted TEAM of the KOMOS who sang, played, danced, laughed, got drunk, puked (as an act of worship) and tried to engage even Jesus in SODOMY of the Dionysus SINGING and PLAYING with the NEW WINESKIN draped over their shoulders.

People LAUGHED at Jesus also: so it has always been a MARK. But, the Jews on their way to Canaan land as the killing fields loved to eat the SACRIFICES made to Baal- Peor: it was DUNG.

Ken Sublett

PART A.1—8:00 A.M.—"AND I MAY LIKE TO JUST KIND OF SIT AND SING A SONG"
====================================================
BRUCE WHITE: ". . . [Paul] He's been talking about division and party spirits…. We can have differences of OPINION; we can have DIFFERENCES in judgment; we can LIKE or DISLIKE things DIFFERENTLY.

"We might ENJOY one thing and another person might ENJOY another thing,
...but we cannot afford to PARTY OURSELVES around those THINGS. You know, I may NOT LIKE someone CLAPPING at a song. That may not be in my COMFORT ZONE. And I may LIKE to just kind of SIT and sing a song, you know, as we sing it and NOT GET ANIMATED WITH it.

And it's OK for ME to hold that.
...But it's not okay for me to get FOUR or FIVE other people and say,

'Do you LIKE them CLAPPING to a song? I don't LIKE that. Do you LIKE that? No, I don't LIKE that. O, good, come on with me, and let's find somebody else that DON'T LIKE it, TOO.

And LET'S get us this BIGGER GROUP as we can that DON'T LIKE it.
...And let's just SIT TOGETHER and BE MISERABLE and not LIKE it..

And let me tell you, folks, YOU'VE just INTERFERED with YOUR worship. YOU cannot approach God with that kind of an ATTITUDE and SPIRIT.
...And YOU may have INTERFERED with someone coming TO worship.

I can LIKE something better than you LIKE it or I can DISLIKE something that you LIKE.

...But we don't have to PARTY UP and begin to DIVIDE the body. And Paul warns against that because it is going to cause difficulty in your worship. Then he talks about the Lord's Supper…."

KEN SUBLETT

I love those GUILT CLAUSES. We will see WHO originated the PARTYING UP and DIVIDING and DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD in order to DECEIVE everyone so WE can turn YOUR church into A THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT. Maybe with time and prayers the TROUBLED people will just die.

IT IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION to compare this to men on HORSES with SADDLEBACKS and wearing WHITE ROBES to HIDE that MASKED MAN. Then we gonna HANG us a few. But when we HUNGED old JOE he done up and KICKED me in his head. We gonna PARTY UP and blacken old JOE'S name cuz he don KICKED me in the head. We gonna compos song to clap to and we gonna go through TITHING SLAVE CAMP and sing about OLD BAD JOE.

But, SLAVES all PARTY UP. They don't sing and clap with us. They PARTY UP. For sure, they gonna go to HELL and hinder our next hanging.

HERE IS HOW MASKED MEN TRY TO HANG OLD JOE and cause old EVIL Tithing Slaves to PARTY UP.

FIRST PARTY UP: Tom Haddon (and only Tom) is talking:

1. (Entertainment and HOLY ENTERTAINMENT - making words UNOBJECTABLE.)

Last week we talked about ENTERTAINMENT. --Uh, that's kind of where we started. What we said was if the word entertainment DOES mean to DIVERT ones ATTENTION,

....to cause to be PLEASURABLE, to cause to be INTERESTING, then THAT is WHAT we're HERE to DO. [Maybe like beer party while we HANG old Joe?]

Um, and, and maybe it's time we STOPPED trying to HIDE from WORDS because they SCARE people. [Don't wanna SCARE Old Joe before Old Joe Go?]

Tom Haddon: There comes a point when you have to have ENOUGH teaching on some thing where you realize that just because a word is maybe taken in a certain context, that that doesn't mean the word is wrong.

And SOMETIMES instead of just NOT using it, what we need is TEACHING.
..Does it mean we cannot USE it for a while?
......But at the same time during that INTERIM term we need to have TEACHING on it.

Tom Haddon: We need to talk about it. Well what is IT?

And soon as I say the word "HOLY ENTERTAINMENT" there would be SOME who would go "ouu--- ! You know I jus(t), jus(t), it sounds so----.

But in a way THAT'S WHAT we're HERE to HERE. We are here as Paul would say,
..."to TAKE your EYES OFF what is SEEN and to PUT it on what? --- what is UNSEEN".
......WE are HERE to DIVERT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.

Tom Haddon: 2. (Leadership)

You know the most UNSETTLING TIMES in any situation in life is when you THINK you are on a road ONE PLACE and
..all of a sudden THINGS HAPPEN around you, and YOU may not understand them all and you could be totally wrong,

BUT all of a sudden you THINK you are on a train headed ONE PLACE and,
...but you THINK the train is going SOMEWHERE ELSE.
.....That's all I'm going to say about leadership.

3. (Leadership - phase 2)
LEADERS in the world KNOW how to DIRECT a TRAIN.

They know how to get ALL the PEOPLE on BOARD.
..When I say ALL, realize that there may be people who GET OFF because they don't want to go to Cincinnati.
....And we have to accept that.

There may be people who get off because they just want to go to COLUMBUS and they don't want to GO OVER HERE.
....And we accept that.

Onct WE PARTY UP and steal the "church houses of widows" then if YOU party up and TEACH, TEACH, TEACH but don't want to wear white pointy head MASK by singing OUR new DIVERT praise songs, they YOU are OLD BLACK JOE and we gonna PREACH whole sermon and sing "EN THUS O MANIA" praise songs to PUT YOU IN YOUR PLACE. Am I wrong?

Ken Sublett

PART A.2--10:30 A.M.--"LOOK AT ALL THE PEOPLE THAT LIKE TO CLAP IN SONGS AND YOU DON'T"

BRUCE WHITE: ". . . [Paul to the church in Corinth], 'When you come together to church, there are divisions among you'--party spirits and division. If I want to worship here--not if it's all fussing and fighting; and my side, your side!
..And if attitude exists like that, I don't. Let me tell you something--we can have differences.
....I can have a different opinion on something than you have. I can like something that you don't like or I may not like something you like.
......And if it has nothing to do with what the Bible says, then, I need to just look at you and say, OK, I don't agree with you, we don't agree on that; but let it go.

Ken: History knows that neither Catholics, Jews nor Protestants ever introduced MUSIC into the "worship" of the church. The idea is oxymoronic since Jesus died to establish a SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST. Jesus knew that when He promised A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE rather than a CARNAL TEMPLE that RATIONAL, SANE people would see this as PROHIBITING MUSIC even if common sense did not shut down the noisy children playing.

Without the MUSIC you would not AROUSE the carnal body which Paul in Hebrews says must be DEAD and BURNED up before we can worship spiritually: in the PLACE of the human spirit. Therefore, the FIRST SIN BEYOND REDEMPTION is to MAKE MUSIC where Jesus promised to meet with us. The RESULT of the music of carnal sexuality creates the HAND CLAPPING.

It has NOTHING to do with MY OPINION or MY LIKES. This proves that they do not remotely comprehend the meaning of WORSHIP IN SPIRIT.

Sure, they fussed over what Paul called SUPER APOSTLES. They were trained rhetoricians, sOPHISts, song writers, professional charismatic and it all came out of THEIR spirit.

sophos Eust.1396.42; to hu. Id.1184.18 ; hoi hu. apostoloi the SUPER-APOSTLES, 2 Ep.Cor. 11.5, 12.11.
..Sophos
...I. properly, skilled in any handicraft or art, CUNNING in his craft, Theogn., etc; of a charioteer, Pind.; of POETS and MUSICIANS, id=Pind.; of a SOOTHSAYERS, Soph., etc.

These will go BACK into hell with the music and musicians of the Babylon harlot of Revelation 18.

THE SUPER APOSTLES were OUTLAWED by Paul calling himself a ROBBER for taking money for teaching. The SOPHISTS would teach you ANYTHING for a price. However, the OPHIS or serpents in the book of Revelation identifies them as the MANTIC or charismatic prophets:
....ophis-teia, sophistry, mantikê, of Balaam, mantikê means divination, soothsayer

This included singers and musicians, especially of the A Cappella sort who sucked in the people to hear the SUPERSTAR.

"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (boys castrated before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their own entertainment, long after it had fallen in disfavor throughout Italy."
..."Into this artificial world came the castrati, who had first gained a place in Italian churches for their 'angelic' voices. Castratos are said to have been the world's first superstars, because of the great sums paid to them for their singing, and scheduled engagements that took them to cities across Europe, to please their enthusiastic followers.

"How can we hear their music today, since we have no more castratos to listen to? Well, during the CURRENT renaissance in Baroque music, some CASTRATO roles have been carefully recreated by counter-TENORS also known as male altos or SOPRANOS. Other musical parts are sung by women who use a natural alto or soprano range,
....but adopt a style which attempts to make the music sound appropriately 'masculine', at least for male roles. There is much debate as to which is better--but keeping in mind the fact that most early composers wrote TROUSER roles for women to sing, and that CASTRATOS frequently presented WOMEN'S roles, especially in their youth, it would seem that GENDER stretching is an original part of this music, and perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact."

Of the king/queen of Tyre as a type of Lucifer: "Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered." Isa 23:16
..."Remembered" means "remembered as a male."

Ken Sublett

BRUCE WHITE: I'm going to tell you something. You may LIKE clapping and singing. Some other brother may not. He may just WANT to sing the song and not have clapping in it.
....As long as we leave it there, it is not going to [---] a thing to God. It's not going to OFFEND God.

KEN: Because there WAS NO MAN, God sent His ARM to be our Mediator. This was Jesus Christ the One and ONLY Mediator between man and God. The Incarnate God of the universe promises to be WITH US to Mediate TRUTH to our SPIRITS through the written Word of the Living word. When He DOES COME in order to speak His SPIRIT words to our HUMAN SPIRIT, who is so HIGH AND LIFTED UP that he can speak FOR GOD and declare that "I am NOT offended" that you are not CAPABLE of hearing me?

MUSIC is derived from Catholics who CONFESSED that they borrowed music from PAGAN CULTS. They also try to justify music as a CLERGY LEVITE role to go along with the SACRIFICING PRIEST role in the Temple. Bruce White demands the TITHE beause he sees himself as a PRIEST. However, the loud noise which accompanied the sacrifice of ANIMALS was not authorized but PERMITTED when Israel demanded a temple LIKE THE NATIONS meaning the pagans.

"For I SPAKE NOT unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: Jeremiah 7:22
..Thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh. Jeremiah 7:21

"But this thing commanded I them, saying, OBEY my VOICE, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the WAYS that I have COMMANDED you, that it may be well unto you. Jeremiah 7:23
..But they HEARKENED NOTt, nor INCLINED their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the IMAGINATION of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward. Jeremiah 7:24

"Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of EGYPT UNTO this day, I have even sent unto you all my servants the PROPHETS, daily rising up early and sending them: Jeremiah 7:25

THIS WAS THROUGH THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST IN THE PROPHETS (1 PE 1:11) SO CHRIST WAS SPEAKING TO THEM:

"Yet they hearkened not unto me, nor INCLINED their EAR, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers. Jeremiah 7:26
..Therefore thou shalt SPEAK all these WORDS unto them; but they WILL not HEARKEN to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee. Jeremiah 7:27
....But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that OBEYETH not the VOICE of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: TRUTH is PERISHED, and is CUT OFF from their mouth. Jeremiah 7:28

ESPECIALLY while they were slaughtering innocent animals as a MARK that they had rejected te rule of God over them, the MUSICAL NOISE was always proof that they told God: "We will not listen to YOUR words."

David tried to AWAKEN his LYRE so that it could awaken the DAWN,

"Woe unto him that saith to the wood, Awake; to the dumb stone, Arise, it shall teach Behold, it is laid over with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in the midst of it. Hab 2:19
...But the Lord is in his HOLY TEMPLE: let all the earth KEEP SILENCE BEFORE HIM. Hab 2:20

Jesus said that our prayers which includes hymning be in the innermost room of our house. That place was quiet and dark because with NOISE you simply cannot worship God in the PLACE of the human spirit.

Of the rich man who cared nothing for God, Job said:

"Men shall CLAP their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place. Job 27:23

Caphaq (h5606) saw-fak'; or saÇphaq (1 Kings 20:10; Job 27:23; Isa. 2:6), saw-fak'; a prim. root; to CLAP the hands (in token of compact, derision, grief, indignation or punishment); by impl. of SATISFACTION, to be enough; by impl. of excess, to VOMIT: - clap, SMITE, strike, suffice, WALLOW

....All that pass by CLAP their HANDS at thee; they HISS and WAG their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The PERFECTON of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? Lam.2:15 (The Mother Church?)

Ken Sublett

Oh how many lost souls we would lead to Christ if the Church would stop arguing over trivial things. Oh how many we would win.

Oh, how UNITED the church would still be and how many lost souls consequentially we would lead to Christ—if the change agents hadn’t dared IMPROVE UPON God’s will for the church, ALTERED certain of its scriptural doctrines and beliefs as DICTATED BY the CULTURAL environment, and REPLACED reverential and humble worship with arrogant MUSICAL WORSHIP in "holy" fun and entertainment form. Oh, how many souls we would win.

Now—consider the SOURCE of issues and conflicts!!! Even science says: “Nothing happens without a cause.”

Donnie

Donnie,

What do you know about soul winning? This is the first mention I have seen of it from your lips. Are you a prophet that knows what people who attend Madison...or elsewhere now...are doing in their concern for the lost? I think not. I know you well enough to know you are far less prideful than that. Evangelism happens outide the doors where the lost are. Worship happens inside the doors when the saints choose to assemble and sing, pray, study the Word, give, testify, share communion and pay attention...all in a spirit that desires to please God from the heart.

chuck

Chuck,

I agree with you completely on evangelism outside of those already in the church. I also agree with you on the edification of the saints. No, Chuck, I am not a prophet [forecaster] nor do I claim to be one.

Chuck said: “What do you know about soul winning? This is the first mention I have seen of it from your lips.”

Donnie says: I was really quoting David and substituted words in []. Thus, “Oh, [how UNITED the church would still be and] how many lost souls [consequentially] we would lead to Christ—if the [change agents hadn’t dared …]”

Donnie

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Source: http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/html/question_54.html
E-Mail: JOHNWADDEY@aol.com
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WHAT IS A CHANGE AGENT?

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Dear Bro. Waddey:

What is a "closet change agent"? William
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Dear Bro. William:

A change agent is a false teacher within the brotherhood of Churches of Christ who is not content to follow the faith and practice of Christianity as sets forth in the pages of the New Testament. He or she therefore works to convince our brethren that they should adopt changes in their faith, worship and practice that will be more acceptable to the world of the 21st Century. The adjective "closet" means they operate undercover, or covertly to accomplish their evil purposes.

Among the things they are trying to change are:

-----> Our commitment to restoring the faith and practice of the church of the Bible. They argue that such an approach is no long practical or needed.

-----> Our praise worship. They think we are wrong in opposing the use of instrumental music and should change to at least be tolerant of those who do so. Many of them are already using musical instruments in their worship. They also think we are wrong to insist on congregational singing and thus they want us to accept the use of soloists, choirs, etc.

-----> The way we commune. Some of them think we are wrong in observing the Communion as a sacred memorial to Jesus' death. They would turn it into a "joyful celebration" and combine it with a regular meal for the belly. Also they wish to be able to commune on other days than the first day of the week.

-----> The role of women in the church. They think we are wrong for not allowing women into leadership roles, and are willing to allow them to serve as preachers and teachers of men.

-----> The nature of the church. To them the Church of Christ is a denomination of the same worth as the hundreds of other denominational churches founded by men. They would have us not think or speak of the church as the exclusive body of Christ.

-----> They think we have been wrong in not fellowshipping the Christian Churches and other denominational bodies. They wish to change us so that we will do so.

-----> They say we have not understood the Bible properly. So they would change the way we read and understand it. This is to allow them to impose their unauthorized changes.

-----> They argue that we have misunderstood the way men are to be saved. They believe we are saved by grace through faith, and that baptism is not an essential aspect of our salvation.

There are other particulars that could be sited but these are sufficient to show that these brethren are proposing changes that are foreign and contrary to the doctrine of Christ. We must not stand silent and allow them to impose these changes of the Lord's people. Where they are successful the church will be corrupted and destroyed. I do hope you will want to work with us in mounting an offensive to defeat them and drive them from our midst.

John H. Waddey
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Donnie,

You do well at quoting bro' waddey. i have just one question here. are we to worship the giver and savior of man, or the record that he left for us.

allow me to share a meesage that i shared elsewhere.

Re: Spiritual Maturity Edit | Reply

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This analogy came to me during worship this morning. our lesson was about God's love. God left us a road map for us to follow. it doesn't matter how you view it. SOME OF THOSE in Christ will take the map and study it's directions thoroughly. they will know without question exactly how to get from anywhere to anywhere. they will know the interstates, the bridges, the tunnels and all the rest of the terrain. some will even know the street numbers of the locations on the map. some will know what materials the houses were built with and a thorough history of ownership of the property. some will even know the history of all the houses in the neighborhood. there is NO DOUBT AT ALL THAT THEY KNOW THE ENTIRE TERRAIN. these are THE IMMATURE IN THE BODY OF CHRIST.

on the other hand there are THE SPIRITUALLY MATURE IN CHRIST. they have the same resources of the map. they view it differently in that they have drawn close to the Creator and Designer of the terrain. although they have the map, and spend much time studying it, they choose for their travels to be a GUIDED TOUR WITH THE MAPMAKER AS GUIDE. the spiritually mature have chosen a guided tour over following the directions. wow!!! what a wonderful, restful, peaceful journey...knowing that He will take us to the most exciting places imaginable. the highlight of the journey is being able to watch Him work in the lives of others. we become witnesses...not judges or lawyers.

if i told you that Spirit gave me this vision in the last 3 hours, would you believe me? praise God from whom all blessings flow!

blessings
chuck
<")))><

"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." (Dresden James)

Posted on 9/21 1:51 PM | IP: 68.53.101.194

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

"May it not happen, may it not come to pass, although you craftily conceal it, that the one should take the other's place, deluding, mocking, deceiving, and presenting the appearance of the deity invoked."

[These were rhetoricians, sOPHISts, singers, musicians and crafty craftsmen who will go back into hell]

"If the MAGI, who are so much akin to SOOTHSAYERS, relate, in their INCANTANTATION,

..pretended gods STEAL IN frequently instead of those invoked; that some of these, moreover, are SPIRITS of grosser substance,

....who pretend that they are gods, and DELUDE the ignorant by their lies and deceit." (Arnobius Against the Heathen, Ante-Nicene, VI, p. 479).

If you believe in a Holy Spirit (Jesus Christ is His Name) then you have to believe in unholy spirits. And if you believe in the Bible and Jesus you have to believe that Satan has his agents who "go astray from the womb" in order to deceive mankind.

Jude quoted Enoch who identified this race of evil people by a strong effort at mixed-sex choirs, wine, instrumental music and abortion.

Therefore, John warned of musical praise leaders:

Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,

...because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1

Sorry, but the SPIRIT who gave you that VISION gave you a false prophecy. Here is part of the HIGHWAY which no FOOL can find his way onto:

"I desired Titus, and with him I sent a brother. Did Titus MAKE A GAIN of you? walked we not in the SAME SPIRIT? walked we not in the SAME STEPS? 2Co.12:18

If you get a NEW ROADMAP, watch out:

"For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an EXAMPLE, that ye should follow HIS STEPS: 1Pe.2:21

The MAP is the combined wisdom of the MAP MAKER: If you want to get from Nashville to Seattle and you REFUSE to learn EACH STEP of the map you will follow Tom Haddon and wind up in the New York Harbor: ALL WET.

Follow the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our salvation OR Jesus will GET YOU LOST by sending you a STRONG DELUSION. Sorry, I don't believe in visions.

Ken

Chuck,

You can do your analogy and philosophize as much as you want, but I believe that none of it excuses the CHANGE AGENTS from accomplishing their evil intentions and goals of disrupting and interfering with the affairs of the church. I think an advice from you to them, i.e., to leave the church alone or better yet to START THEIR OWN FROM SCRATCH, would be appropriate and badly needed—DO NOT SOW DISCORD OR DESTROY THE CHURCH THAT CHRIST BUILT.

In answer to your question, yes, we worship the Father: “[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4, KJV)

Of course, we do not worship “the record that he left for us” [as you said], but God’s word is the map—it comes from the Mapmaker and it gives us directions; neither does it need revision or re-invention: “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby” (I Peter 2:2, KJV). “[12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. [13] For every one that useth milk is unskillful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. [14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” (Hebrews 5, KJV) Chuck, that is the scriptural description of spiritual maturity.

Donnie

Now we are seeing “the designation TRADITIONAL and CONTEMPORARY on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice” (Madison Marcher, 9.3.03). Dr. Bruce White has recently delivered his sermon, “Do You Want to Worship Here” (8.31.03) with the two contrasting audiences taken into consideration (cf. post: “SERMON: ‘DO YOU WANT TO WORSHIP HERE?’” [September 15 2003, 5:41 AM]). Certain segments of the sermon were apparently compromising in content, which leads me to believe that conflicts and issues are likely to remain unresolved.

Is there really unity in diversification between the so-called “traditional” and “contemporary” assemblies? [Please note that these terms were coined by the change advocates themselves, in lieu of differentiating the culture-driven changes in certain DOCTRINES, BELIEFS AND PRACTICES from those “originally” held. Remember, the changes have not been just in certain practices (e.g., songbooks no longer being used, power point, etc)—which are NON-ESSENTIAL OR INCIDENTAL. But much more importantly, the church is under siege because of changes in the ESSENTIAL (doctrines and beliefs related to worship and worship content, the purpose of baptism, the Holy Spirit, “faith only” versus “faith and works,” church organization, etc.)

I believe that a portion of an article below will help educate ourselves a little better of what’s going on generally not only in our society, but also in the religious world, as we are constantly faced with dilemmas, issues and misleading options that compromise God’s truth and misdirect our spiritual lives.

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The Diabolical System of Diaprax (Christian Media – February 25, 2002)
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[[[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diaprax is a word coined by Dean Gotcher, founder of the Institute for Authority Research. Dean has traveled the United States and given over 1,000 live presentations to Christians explaining this wicked technique that is surreptitiously destroying our families, our government, and even our Christian churches.

After reading and digesting 600+ social psychology books, Mr. Gotcher joined the word dialectic and the word praxis to create the term DIAPRAX. Dialectic is a philosophical term that describes the use of dialogue to resolve conflict between opposing ideas or opinions. The word Praxis simply means “to practice.” Therefore, Diaprax is the practice of the dialectic.

These terms are derived from the ungodly 18th century philosophical model that is known as the Hegelian Dialectic. Named after the German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Hegel (although considerably refined since its inception in Hegel’s era), this world view has now completely enveloped the world.

In its simplest form, the Diaprax system is a process whereby the entire world will eventually dialog until they reach a consensus. The 3 part formula consists of 3 essential components: Thesis, Antithesis, and Synthesis. Simply put, a “thesis” is combined with the opposing view, the “anti-thesis,” and the result is called the “synthesis.”

In the Bible we see Satan cause the fall of man through the use of Diaprax (the practice of the dialectic). Eve tells the Serpent that God has commanded that of the tree in the midst of the garden, that they “shall not eat of” it. That is the thesis. Then Satan offers an opposing opinion (the antithesis) that flies in the face of the Word of God, telling Eve about the benefits of eating the forbidden fruit. Eve joins the two views and comes up with the synthesis — the fruit is “good food,” “pleasant to the eye” and will “make one wise.” Through Adam and Eve’s reasoning, God’s eternal truth was reasoned away, and the curse of death replaced the gift of eternal life.

No Christian can follow the Lord of the Bible, and partake of Diaprax. You cannot serve two masters, and the practicing of the Dialectic is an insidious process that now permeates all forms of society — including the “management” practices of the corporate Christian church.

In the same manner that Diaprax was used to “facilitate” the fall of man, it is today “facilitating” the complete destruction of our country. The American family has moved from Patriarchic (the Biblical model of the family) to the more Diaprax-oriented Matriarchic. The end result may be referred to as Heresyarchic. The synthesis of the Patriarchal and the Matriarchal is Heresy-archical. Satan tempted (diapraxed) Eve who compromised the fact based instructions of God the sake of relationship — the then nascent dialog with the Serpent.

Obviously, men are also susceptible to the same approach, for Adam willfully disobeyed God for the sake of the relationship with Eve — who had already eaten of the fruit. When reduced to a simple philosophical paradigm, God’s Word is absolute and is true. This is the Thesis.

As various doctrinal approaches to Christianity vie for pre-eminence, while posing as interpretive systems, they ultimately put forward the Antithesis. As Christians seek to maintain their relationships with churches, family, friends, government, etc. (see Mark 13:12) slowly erode (sacrifice) their previously firm stance on the pure fact of God’s word in order to preserve the relationship. Thus, each person is eventually processed and a Synthesis is reached.

Virtually all organizational structures are presently moving in the spirit of Diaprax. Every city council, county board of commissioners, courthouse, church board of Elders, and corporate enterprise is deeply enmeshed in the process.

In this fashion, previously Protestant organizations that were staunchly anti-Papist are now embracing the heresy of Rome. Previously conservative Christian groups are slowly allowing women to become pastors, homosexuals to be married in the church, and firm doctrines such as the Virgin birth to be liberally “spiritualized.” Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — a translational dialogue to consensus.

The process works in literally thousands of environments and is now running at full speed. Interestingly enough, the American Peoples Encyclopedia states that the Diaprax “can come to rest only at the apex of a hierarchial system.” . . .

Sadly, most mainstream Christian churches are allowing the Diapraxing of their values…. Because the incorporated state-sanctioned churches are required by law to respond in a certain fashion to these sins in order to maintain their 501(c)(3) non-profit status, the churches have compromised the truth of God’s word in order to preserve the relationship with the government.

The inevitable Synthesis is a powerless church that has “become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit….” (Revelation 18:3)

. . .

… Unless you have “the mind of Christ,” the end result for all humanity is a reprobate mind that has brought the organized Christian church and the freedom loving people of America to the point where they are now embracing the diabolical system of The Antichrist and his False Prophet — the Diaprax.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.” — Isaiah 55:8

—— Doug Hudson & James Lloyd
Copyright ©2002 Christian Media Network
For the complete article, please see: http://www.christianmediaresearch.com/
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Donnie Cruz

Here are only two of SEVERAL specific issues mentioned in the article, “The Diabolic System of Diaprax”:

(1) “Sadly, most mainstream Christian churches are allowing the Diapraxing of their values…. Because the incorporated state-sanctioned churches are required by law to respond in a certain fashion to these sins in order to maintain their 501(c)(3) non-profit status, the churches have compromised the truth of God’s word in order to preserve the relationship with the government.”

(2) Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — a translational dialogue to consensus.

I realize there are many more issues and related questions. But for now, here are the questions: (1) Is your home church “incorporated”? (2) Is the NIV translation of the Bible the choice of your church leaders for public reading and in Bible studies? Watch out!!!

Donnie Cruz

Is anyone in the churches of Christ really folling the standards set in the first century church? When you stop and think about it, they didn't have church buildings to worship in, or any of the modern conveniences we have today. Technically, aren't we adding where the Bible is silent by worshipping in bulidngs with sound systems and babtistries? Would all this fuss about contemporary vs. traditional really be valid if we all worshipped in our homes? I'm just saying that it all seems a little ridiculous when you stop and think about it. Yes, the Bible is silent when it comes to the way we worship, but it is also silent about the type of building we choose to worship in. Let us all stop and think about the true purpose behind our worship and not get tangeled up in the way we worship.

Lisa,

The physical items you listed have been mentioned several times before by several folks and are being used to justify the freedom to transform the spiritual body of Christ, the church, into some culture-based organization. The list can be exhaustive: the meeting place, sound systems, baptisteries, lighting, air conditioning, visual aids, power point, hymnals, the pulpit, etc., etc. These are all physical conveniences and are not spirituality essentials. They do not affect nor alter God’s specific directives for the church to follow. For that matter, if given the permission, a body of believers can assemble in a Catholic church building—but just be sure to ignore the statues of the Virgin Mary and their venerated saints, etc., OK? (A little humor: I personally try my best not to pay attention to the WORSHIP LEADER and his antics on stage; otherwise, I would end up worshipping and praising him and idolizing his musical talent [a.k.a. “idolatry of talent”]—somewhat similar to the attention given to the Immaculate Conception, the Blessed Virgin Mary.) So, the issues we’re faced with are not the non-essentials or the incidentals; rather, the changes in doctrinal and belief matters, worship content that affects our spirituality, church organization, etc.

The foremost consideration in dealing with the assembly or the gathering of the saints is UNITY: Acts 15:25 speaks of it as being “with one accord.” “[1] If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, [2] Fulfill ye my joy, that ye be LIKEMINDED, having the SAME love, being of ONE ACCORD, of ONE MIND. [3] Let nothing be done through STRIFE or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.” (Philippians 2:1-3, KJV) That’s NOT to say, however, that in order to gather, we are to rush “WITH ONE ACCORD INTO THE THEATRE” (Acts 19:29, KJV) of HOLY ENTERTAINMENT and REVERENT FUN.

The purpose of the gathering of the church, as a school of the Bible, is stated in Acts 20: observance of the Lord’s Supper, the study of God’s word. But when MUSICAL WORSHIP is the main emphasis in the assembly, rather than Christ and teaching and admonishing one another with His word, then our spiritual view or objective is all DISTORTED and a DEVIATION!

Diversification is hardly a demonstration, but is rather a confession to the community, of the lack of unity pervasive in that body. “[2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the UNITY of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)

Donnie

P.S.: The physical, non-essential items are not the issues the church is faced with; rather, the issues at hand are related to those things that affect our spirituality. In order to have a better understanding of what’s really troubling the church of our Lord in this postmodern era, please read the article, “IN THE GRIP OF GOD’S GRACE (A Review)” in this thread: “To change or not to change.” Thank you!

I am afraid I have to disagree with you Donnie. I think all those things fall in the same catagory with the way we worship. The first century church did not worship in a building. They met to break bread with each other in homes. So...if we are supposed to be like them then shouldn't we leave our million dollar buildings and worship in our homes? You can't pick and choose what you want the churches today to match with the first century church. You are doing what all the other legalistic churches are doing. You only pick the verses that you want from the Bible, and saying the rest God did not give a command for. I realize we are never going to agree on this, so I am only stating my personal opinions. I think it's something we all need to think about though. If we TRULY want to go back to the way the first century worshipped, then we have to do a lot more than change the songs we sing.The churches of Christ have a lot more to worry about these days. The church is still struggling with the reputation of not being a loving, caring place and we think we're the only one who is going to heaven. Is that really the way to get people interested in the church? Isn't it better to open our arms and welcome them into the assembly rather than hit them with all the legalistic rhetoric? Why would people want to be involved in a church like that? People don't want a bunch of rules to follow, they want to come and worship and feel loved.When we come to worship, we are supposed to leave behind the cares of the world and worship in spirit and truth. That's a little hard to do when you are constantly worrying about singing the "right" songs. Why do you think the more "contemporary" churches are growing by leaps and bounds these days? It's becuase they have found a warm and welcoming place. They don't care about the worship "style" or the "rules" of other men. Besides, our whole lives are to be a worship to God, not just Sunday morning and Wednesday nights. The way we worship in the church is only a small portion of what our lives are to be. Anyway, Donnie I'm sorry I have to disagree with you on this subject. Maybe you should consider leaving Madison and attending a church more like the church you keep talking about. I don't think you are going to change the way things are at Madison, so maybe you would be happier if you attended another congregation. It's just a thought. Also, try putting down the notepad and really pay attention to the words in the songs instead of who is clapping.

May God bless you,
Lisa

Lisa,

I gather from your post above that you do not fully understand the extent of the damage that the change advocacies have inflicted upon the church of our Lord—I really wish you: (a) had a better grasp of the real issues and conflicts that beset God’s family; (b) had a proper use or ascription of the word “legalistic”; and (c) had done much catching up beforehand and before now. You have also asked several questions: “Shouldn't we…? Is that really the way…? Isn't it better to…? Why would people want…? Why do you think…?” These questions are fair, and they deserve answers.

I really would like to discuss your points of view further and answer these questions as soon as time allows me to do so. I trust that you will be waiting and watching for my additional response to your post of “September 25 2003, 12:49 PM.”

For now, I’d like to deal with your last statements. LISA says to DONNIE:
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[[[[[----Maybe you should consider leaving Madison and attending a church more like the church you keep talking about. I don't think you are going to change the way things are at Madison, so maybe you would be happier if you attended another congregation. It's just a thought. Also, try putting down the notepad and really pay attention to the words in the songs instead of who is clapping. ----]]]]]
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Let DONNIE [repeatedly but briefly] say the following to LISA:
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[[[[[----I have considered leaving Madison. If I leave, it will be on my own volition—and no one else’s. It is true that “a church more like the church [I] keep talking about” is what the Madison congregation was—united in love and spirit, ascribed to it as: “a city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.” United … because it wasn’t about traditionalism versus contemporaneousness and because it wasn’t about division in diversification! While I am not “going to change the way things are at Madison” (for the reason that the Change Movement has already done an extensive damage and that I don’t know how far this church has gone into becoming a “community” church), there are still many remaining folks who do not want the cultural and secular influences divert their attention from understanding and learning God’s pure truth.

[Lisa, I’ve already explained the following many times before. But I’ll help you catch up a little bit.] I do not use a notepad. What do I use, then? The empty spaces of the worship guide—the “contemporary page” to be specific. If there’s not enough room, I use the blank area of the 8:00 page. The list of songs that I report on is all derived from the worship guide [surprise! surprise!] and the words to songs … well, from sheet music, etc. I’m in the assembly to try to sing about Christ and the good news of salvation, about heaven—not about “singy-clappy” songs and rah-rah-rah songs that make you feel “charismatic” (in today’s language) and make you think that they “cover a multitude of sins.” I’m in the assembly primarily to partake of the Lord’s Supper worthily and without the intervening solo, excessive verbiage or wordless humming. I’m in the assembly to learn the truth—which brings me to the point of my NOTETAKING. This is one thing that no one in this world can keep me from doing! In fact, Lisa, I would encourage you and others to do the same thing—it’s one great way to learn.

Finally, in regard to “really pay[ing] attention to the words in the songs instead of who is clapping,” I must tell you that this suggestion is asinine, if not insulting. My distance and peripheral vision is not that desirable. So, I rely almost entirely on my auditory senses—I do HEAR the loud rhythmical noise of handclapping. Oh … “the words in the songs”! That’s easy. For example:

(1) There are songs that resemble “Yankee Doodle” or “For He’s a Jolly Good Fellow.” (2) There’s actually a “praise” song titled, “Clap Your Hands.” (3) In “I Can Only Imagine” [sing-able only to the Praise Team], a question is asked: “Will I dance for You, Jesus?” (4) Some of the lines in “I Was Made for This”: “Oh, I was made for this, to know Your tender kiss … I was made to laugh … My feet were made to dance … For I was made for You, and I have made my choice … I felt Your warm embrace … I was made to love You, Jesus.” I believe these few samples are sufficient for now.---- ]]]]]
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Donnie

Donnie: I am afraid I understand all to well what is happening in the church of Christ these days. I grew up in "traditional" church of Christ. I still have scars from the "wounds" given to me while attending. There was no love, compassion, or forgiveness from people who were supposed to be Christians. These people are more interested in how many times you are sitting in your assigned pew, not how many people they can help get to heaven. These "traditional" churches are "dying out" because they have no compassion for their fellow bretheren. When you walk into one of their buildings you can cut the air with a knife. It's stiff and unwelcoming. Is that what the church is supposed to be like? Where people are afraid to even smile because it might be considered irreverent or unbiblical. That's not the kind of church I want to be part of, Donnie. Life is too short, and Gods grace is to great to sit around afraid to sing the wrong song or be happy during worship services. God wants us to be happy and praise him in our worship. He also wants us to be reverent, but I don't think that means "stoic" or unhappy. Here is a thought to consider. You are worried about not being reverent enough during the singing; how reverent is it for someone to sit and talk through worship or more importantly communion? To me, I would think it's terribly irreverant, not to mention distracting when someone chatters all the way through communion. At least when there is singing, it will at least help you focus on communion, whereas talking takes your mind off of Christ. Have you thought about how distracting it might be to those around you when you scribble notes on your worship sheet? You can't blame the change agents for the way people behave in church. Donnie, you can rant and rave all you want about the change agents and how they are bringing the church down. Truth be known, it's something that has been happening to the church for many years. They have been pushing people away with their attitudes and unforgiveness long before the community church showed up on the scene.

Lisa,

I’m afraid you still don’t grasp it. I’m sorry about your past experience with other Christians, but I don’t think your characterization of Christians who do not conform to the “community church” system is fair. Did you say—no love, no compassion, no forgiveness, stiff, unwelcoming, stoic, unhappy, chattering all the way through the communion, etc.? Are you serious in implying that the Madison Church of Christ—prior to the change agents taking over—was all of the above? Please! Please! Please!

The truth is that, yes, there are some professed Christians who may be as you described, but let’s be careful about making that kind of generalization. Besides, the Community Churches are not immune from having some members in that same category.

I have the feeling that it makes you happy for the churches that are unwilling to succumb to the culture-driven Community Church system to be “dying out” and that the Community Church “showed up on the scene.”

You asked, in different words, again: “Have you thought about how distracting it might be to those around you when you scribble notes on your worship sheet?” My response to you is a big: “NO” because the balcony has many, many empty pews—unlike prior to the upheaval when it was crowded. Now I occupy one pew all to myself, and the pews above me are empty. But that’s not the main reason for my taking sermon notes. It’s also my objective for being in the assembly to learn the truth. What about you? Let me remind you again: please try taking sermon notes—you will learn and remember lessons from the Bible better that way.

Donnie

Donnie I don't believe I specifically said the Madison church was doing any of the things I mentioned. I was talking in general terms. I realize all churches are going to have these problems to some extent. No... it does not make me happy the more "traditional" churches are "dying out". I think it's very sad in fact. I think we should all be working together for the greater good of the church;not squabbling over which churches are worshipping the "correct" way. We are all getting to caught up in the "right" or "wrong" way to do things and forgetting what going to church is all about. God cares about what is in our hearts, and he will judge us all one day for that. Only God knows if we are worshipping with all our heart, soul and strength; NOT MAN. If someone wants to worship in a more "contemporary" way or in a more "traditional" way that is fine with me. I am not going to judge one way or the other. That is Gods job, not mine. Let us all remember that "in the way we judge, we will also be judged."

Lisa,

I must continue to say that you still don’t get it. You do not fully understand the real issues that are dividing the church and causing the “squabbles” that you’re speaking of. Ultimately, it is the change agents who pervert the truth, who want to IMPROVE UPON God’s directives for the church, and who subvert and create havoc in congregations.

Solution: The change agents must not disturb the unity and peace that are already evident in an existing congregation—God detests division in His church and, therefore, detests those that perpetrate it. Change agents, in pursuing their own dreams and schemes, should start their own from scratch—and NOT INFILTRATE! Then, conflicts and squabbles will be prevented.

Donnie

Donnie, I have just updated an article in which Rubel Shelly applauds "my friend Max Lucado" who says That:

"Dancing with no music is tough stuff.
....Jesus knew that.
"For that reason, on the night before His DEATH He introduced the disciples
....to the SONG MAKER of the TRINITY, the HOLY SPIRIT."

The truth which is not permitted to be known to them is that Jesus identified Himself as Father, Son and Spirit. That is, the ONE God approaches us like a Father, Son and Spirit which is the MIND of Christ.

When the priesthood afflicted and infected with DIONYSUS singing and dancing they HOPED that Jesus would bow before them in the CHORAL dance. Further, they HOPED that John wore SOFT clothing which would identify him as the king's catamite or sodomite. Jesus, used the COMMON Biblical practice of using PARABLES (a superior form of speech, not myths) so that they COULD NOT hear the gospel message, repent and Jesus would have to save them.

The Greek world drew an identity betwee SONG WRITERS who were not inspired and Apollo. One who SELLS something as FROM GOD when it is not, is identified in the same area of Greek study as Courtesans or Prostitutes. They were NECESSARY in the religious festivals of the world at the time "because the old rites brought in scarce contributions." Periander of Corinth was the pagan SONG WRITER. Look up the word for Courtesan and you will get:

Korinthios , a, on, Corinthian, Hdt., etc.; K. korê COURTESAN, Pl.R. 404d; HETAIRAI K. Ar.Pl.149; oinos K. Alex.290; K. kadoi Diph.61.3 . Adv. -iôs in Corinthian FASHION, oikos (house, TEMPLE). History knows that Solomon built according to the Corinthian Fashion using Phoenician architects because God had instructed them how to build a temple to bring down the nation because of their MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai.

Paul said that everything we do should EDIFY which means to educate or instruct or built up our HOUSE or temple which is the human spirit where no musican would dare to go--EXCEPT in these end times in the church. The Flute players, singers and dancers were essential to EDIFY or UP BUILD THE HOUSE of the pagan gods and goddesses where prostitutes and sodomites were the priestly performers.

http://www.piney.com/WinMaxDance.html

Since "church" is NOT in the Bible, but is Ekklesia or School of the Bible, it is UNLAWFUL as well as PAGAN to bring performance singers and musicians (with or without instruments) to EDIFY or UPBUILD the institution. Biblical "singing" means TEACHING; Pagan singing and external melody always meant to GRIND DOWN the people to make them submit and pay.

Ask: Is LISA a sneak word for a STAFF INFECTOR? It is true that the Bible does not call what WE often do "worship." Rather, Paul's unique worship word meant to GIVE HEED TO THE WORD and thereby GIVE HEED TO THE THOUGHT OF GOD IN THE PLACE OF OUR HUMAN SPIRT. Increasingly, performance "worship" which is total paganism, INTENDS that we cannot even begin to hold the thought of God in our minds.

Ken

Ken,

Where did you pull this quote of Lucado's from:

"Dancing with no music is tough stuff.
....Jesus knew that.
"For that reason, on the night before His DEATH He introduced the disciples
....to the SONG MAKER of the TRINITY, the HOLY SPIRIT."

I would like to read it for myself.

Thanks,
E.B.

http://www.piney.com/WinMaxDance.html

http://www.piney.com/WinAnderDancRim.html

http://www.piney.com/WallingInd.html

Walling urging the Campus Ministers to revolt:

http://www.piney.com/Walling1995.html

Ken

Donnie I DO UNDERSTAND what is happening in the church today; Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand.

Am I to believe that what you are doing is promoting peace and harmony in the church? You seem to be very intent on creating more arguements and hurt feelings through this website. You are not interested in what anyone else has to say unless they agree 100% the way you do.

I am all for peace and harmony in the church, but lets face it, that hasn't been happening long before your "change agents" came into the picture. There will always be someone in the church (young or old) who wants to worship "their way" and be unhappy with everything that's not done according to their "standards". You can't please everyone 100% of the time. No matter how hard you try there will always be someone who doesn't like it. That is just human nature. If Madison went back to the way they had always worshipped who would be happy then? You, and a handful of others? But then, you make the people angry who liked the new way of worshipping and who actively participated in the worship services. I'm not saying the more "traditional" people don't participate, but as a whole, the older generation does not actively participate in the worship service. For every 2 people who are happy with the way things are, there will be 5 more people who are unhappy. What you are trying to change is something the church has been struggling with for years. How do you make EVERYONE happy? This isn't Burger King; we can't all have it OUR WAY all the time. There needs to be compromise on everyones part, and working together for the good of the congregation, not just our own personal preferences. Lets stop judging each other, and start working on the unity and peace the Bible wants us to have.

Lisa,

I fully realize that you do not agree with me, and I do not expect you to ever agree with me. I know for sure now that you do not understand the REAL ISSUES concerning the CHANGE AGENTS. You do not even know who they are. If you do, name me a few of them. Then, I’m going to ask you to tell the change agents, or at least remind them, of the things about peace and unity that you’re telling me. But, again, I probably should take back what I’m asking you—you don’t know the change agents themselves and the damage they have inflicted upon the body of Christ. Your message about peace and unity is what the change agents really need to hear from you and practice! Your message is just perfect for the change agents!

Donnie

Donnie: Ok, let me see if I am understanding what you want. In order to PROVE to you that I "understand" the change agents I have to name a few for you?I should not have to prove anything to you, but let me see if I can satisfy you.

The "change agents" are the community church movement that is coming into the churches and moving them into a more "contemporary" atmosphere. Most specifically, the Saddleback church in California. They are infiltrating the churches with their people, and elders and church leaders are succombing to the "pressure". Some change agents within the church are (according to you) Rubel Shelly & Max Lucado. They are usuing their "influence" to move closer to the community church. Most recently was the announcement by Max Lucado that they were changing the name from Oak Hills church of Christ, to Oak Hills church. (which personally I do not happen to agree with)

I think there probably are some things we can agree on Donnie. I don't think we need to be changing the name on the church just to get more people in the door. I think we should be proud of our church heritage and not run from it. On the other hand, we should not run from SOME (not all) of the changes that could possibly make the church stronger and more productive.

OK, Lisa, you’re receiving high marks for successfully answering the preliminary questions. Are you sure you did not first research and cram for answers? The only comment I have regarding your response is that it is not necessarily the “contemporary atmosphere” that is the concern—unless you meant irreverent atmosphere. But the important thing at this point is what appears to be your acknowledgment for the first time of the existence of change agents—you were able to name a couple of prominent ones. You may not know yet or you may simply deny that the change agents are here to pervert the truth, subvert and divide the church as they infiltrate. But at least you know they have schemes.

One fallacious statement or assumption by the secular-oriented change agents is that scripture-loyalist congregations are opposed to changes—period. That’s not the case. Another fallacious assumption is that these same congregations have this consternation in which effected changes cause them to say: “We never did it that way before.” That’s not the case, either.

My next question is: What fundamental doctrines and teachings (pertaining to baptism in the conversion process, faith and good works in a Christian life, church organization, musical worship, instrumental music, the Holy Spirit, etc.) do the change agents espouse that are contrary to the scriptures? [Oops, I’ve given you clues.] Anyway, the answers to this question will negate the wrong assumptions I mentioned earlier.

I never denied the existence of the change agents, and no I did not cram to get the answers correct on the previous post. I told you, I know all about the changes taking place in churches today. Once again, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand.

You said in order to get rid of the wrong assumptions you had I needed to answer a few more questions. The change agents come into the church and start preaching grace only and babtism not essential for salvation. They also bring in instrumental music, praise teams,and choirs. There could also be a change in how often communion is taken. They will probably change it to a once a month event. The will institute a Saturday evening service (1) to start making the changes slowly before implementing in a main servcie (2)They think Saturday worship is "just as good" as Sunday worship.

I know these are not all the changes but I hope this proves to you I do know what I am talking about. I grew up in the church of Christ and I have seen it from both perspectives.

Lisa,

I appreciate your patience with me. Going through with these questions and answers has more to do with (1) ensuring that in order to make discussions beneficial, we don’t deviate from the real issues; and (2) realizing that we can actually identify and define these specific issues. It all means that we can not spend much time discussing about love for God and neighbor and other subjects, important as they are, because we already know and understand these things and have nothing to do with issues relating to infiltration and subversion and church division and other acts of the change agents.

It is simply my hope for your understanding that doctrinal changes are wrong and some of the external changes are totally unnecessary and only cause division. After all, as in the case of Madison, this body of believers had existed for a long time and had manifold successes without these “new” or extraneous things.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply you weren’t knowledgeable of the issues. I just wanted us to focus on the specific issues.

Donnie

Lisa,
I consider the thoughts you have conveyed very often. There is a huge difference in using conviences for "comfort and sanitary purposes" and using them to "entertain and attract" through talents or worldly gadgets geared to compell an emotional response. The latter really has nothing to do with spirituality and in MY OPINION is as much or more about the almighty dollar than worshipping God.

I do not believe the Bible is silent when it comes to the way we worship. Worship in your home is fine as long as it does not contradict Spirituality and Truth, John 4:24.
My problem with the "Contemporary fuss", as you put it, is that it contradicts both of these words as well as unity and peace also, Ephesians 4:3.

There IS only the "church" Matthew 16:18 (of Christ) not "churches" of Christ. There might be different denominations(names) and groups(congregations) but the church belongs to and was founded, (of/from Christ). Any other designation of a church is incorrect. When the bible talks of "churches"(plural), how could it be anything other than congregations for/of/from Christ. Christ is what it was and is all about. So what's in a name? EVERYTHING!

"That" is the purpose behind our worship. Let's not get tangled up in the ways of the "world".

Larry.

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The following is an additional response to Lisa’s post dated: September 25 2003, 12:49 PM.
The preceding “Response—Part 1” was posted on: September 27 2003, 2:46 AM.
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Lisa,

I realize that you will continue to ignore the “picked verses” from the Bible regarding UNITY (and NOT DIVERSIFICATION) in the body of Christ. I realize that you will also continue to make the meeting place and the “style” of worship as the issues of the day—when they are NOT. So, I am compelled to reiterate that: These are all physical conveniences, and these are not “spirituality” essentials. They do NOT AFFECT or ALTER God’s specific directives for the church to follow. The issues we’re faced with are N-O-T the non-essentials or the incidentals; rather, the issues we’re faced with are the CHANGES IN DOCTRINAL and BELIEF MATTERS, WORSHIP CONTENT or EMPHASIS (not WORSHIP STYLE), CHURCH ORGANIZATION, ETC.—these are the things that affect our spirituality.

You asked: “… if we are supposed to be like them [the first century church] then shouldn't we leave our million dollar buildings and worship in our homes? … then we have to do a lot more than change the songs we sing.”

Well, Lisa, I think you are making the “meeting place” an issue now, when it hasn’t been an issue between: (a) the change agents and (b) the change agents’ victims. However, you might be correct in stating that the meeting place is an issue—but only in so far as the change agents have taken over and have taken control of the meeting place and of their victims.

Practically speaking in connection with the Madison church building specifically, if it were no longer to be used, HOW MANY HOMES, in your guesstimate, would be able to accommodate the Madison crowd? Hmmm! I must say, therefore, that any physical meeting place or location for the gathering of the saints to break bread and proclaim God’s word—in the home, park, cave, million-dollar gym or chapel—does not and should not alter the spiritual essence or purpose of the assembly.

You mentioned “songs” that we sing. Do not forget that contemporary “Christian” music from “rock” artists—not from the Rock of Ages—now dominates “church music” and has practically REPLACED many sacred hymns that deliver the message of Christ and his suffering and the gospel of salvation. I realize that not all of the rock artists’ musical “praise” pieces are without scriptural content or emotionally motivated or erotic. On the other hand, there are many hymns whose unchanging scriptural messages are applicable to the Christian life, regardless of culture. So, we are speaking of CONTENT here, rather than of STYLE. I must say, furthermore, that the “STYLE” of worship is NOT even an issue—if you’re referring to the order of activities, number of songs, etc. I am convinced that many of the pro-activists in the church are getting the so-called “style of worship” confused with worship “CONTENT.”

When worship becomes a concert, when it turns into MUSICAL WORSHIP, when it deviates from letting “the word of Christ dwell in you richly” into some theatrical “holy” entertainment and “reverent” fun, then I would question worship CONTENT—not style. MUSIC is never related to worship, in the first place. The verb “SING” is not even a command (sorry, Dr. White), although singing CAN occur. [Let me interject here that Dr. White has recently remarked in his sermon to the contrary, but failed to cite a passage in support of the “command” to SING. In fact, he has opined:]

(1) At the 8:00 A.M. assembly that: “I don’t want to hear anybody that does not sing in a worship service say anything about a group that plays in it. BECAUSE THERE IS NO MORE ERROR IN PLAYING AN INSTRUMENT OF MUSIC IN WORSHIP SERVICE THAN THERE IS IN SITTING AND NOT SINGING.”

(2) At the 10:30 A.M. assembly that: “I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR SOME GREAT PRESENTATION FROM SOMEBODY ON WHAT’S WRONG WITH INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN WORSHIP, IF THAT FELLOW DOESN’T SING IN THE ASSEMBLY. … And, so, if you are not singing, don’t talk about instruments because you’re as wrong as the person that uses it.”

You know, I’m not sure if the implication in the above remarks by Dr. White is a precursor to the change agents’ scheming approach to “gradually” introduce musical instrumentation in the “worship service.” But, that portion of his message is a good example of “twisting” the scriptures. So, let’s just let the Scripture speak for itself. The real and principal action in one scriptural text is NOT in the word “SING” but is rather in “LET … DWELL”—qualified by “teaching and admonishing” that which is “let … dwell” through an avenue of “singing.” Here’s the complete passage: “LET the WORD OF CHRIST dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16, KJV) That was the EMPHASIS [of letting “the word of Christ dwell…”] in the first century. So, it must be in the 21st century.

It is truth that MUSIC is not related to New Testament worship. There is no command to SING, either. But I realize that singing can occur in proclaiming Christ and the cross—and when singing occurs, worship CONTENT is affected. You have mentioned “songs” and that I pay attention to the words in songs. I would cite a few examples where FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS have played a major role in the composition of many “singy-clappy” songs, rather than the message of TRUTH being delivered. Well, I already discussed this in my “PART 1” response to you on September 27 2003, 2:46 AM.

You’ve mentioned the words “legalistic” and “legalistic rhetoric”—common references made by the change advocates to those who are unwilling to be subverted and perverted from the truth to secular and culture-driven alternatives. It is a total misnomer—let’s save this topic for another time.

You are correct in saying: “The churches of Christ have a lot more to worry about these days.” True, indeed! True, indeed! The change agents are the main problems of churches of Christ these days. They are not only problems; they have also compounded existing problems! And did you say: “the more "contemporary" churches are growing by leaps and bounds these days”? Did you mean “Community Churches”?

Well, let us see how the Madison Church has done so far. Even AFTER the “upheaval” had already occurred, the highest combined worship attendance one Sunday in May, 2001 was 2675; in the following month, it was 2670. Keep in mind that it was much higher than that—PRIOR to the “havoc”—let’s say at least 3,000? By December 2001, attendance records were 2148, 2008, 2039, 2134 and 1985 for the 5 consecutive Sundays. In recent weeks, records were (according to the Madison Marcher): 1483 … 1702, 1759, 1726, 1742, 1732, 1782, 1722, and 1629. In fact, these figures have INCLUDED a mysterious number of 313 each time. [Of course, “313” was also added to each of the counts in December 2001—can someone explain this mystery? Is this the attendance from the “prison” ministry, and why is it a constant figure? And when are the attendance and contribution boards going to be up on the wall again? By the way, the compiled directory of “CHURCHES OF CHRIST IN THE UNITED STATES” shows Madison with the following data for 2002: attendance = 1786, members = 3142, adherents = 4730.] So, where are they now—those who have “leaped out of bounds”?

There’s one revealing truth coming out of the statistics: give credit to the Madison body that was then—its knowledge of the Holy Scripture and its stand for the TRUTH, the unwillingness of many of its members to succumb to secular and culture-driven alternatives and superficial religious freedom in exchange for the TRUTH—all of that, by the way, is NOT legalism or hypocrisy.

Finally, the growth of “Community Churches” by “leaps and bounds” is no more than a gathering of those who are ALREADY “professed Christians” from various, neighboring churches in the community. One church’s loss is just another church’s gain.
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Donnie Cruz

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“Let the WORD OF CHRIST dwell in you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING and ADMONISHING one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing WITH GRACE IN YOUR HEARTS to the Lord.” (Colossians 3:16, KJV)

The above passage clearly emphasizes the CONTENT (word of Christ) of what we are to TEACH and ADMONISH (primary task) in the assembly when we SING hymns and songs.

Below is a segment of an article written by John Waddey related to the history of church “music.” See when the “appointment of singers” began. See if you can find the quoted lines: “… the knowledge of the Scriptures should inspire our songs...” . . . “An artificial theatrical style of music, having no affinity with the worship of God….” “… that heathen melodies (Accompanied as it seems with the action of the hands and the feet) had been introduced into their Church psalmody.”

Locate the following phrases and expressions: “introduction of profane music”; “theatrical music”; “music of the theater”; “scene of theatrical pomp and display”; “to entertain the assembly with theatrical songs and melodies in the church”; “to display that profound veneration for choral music.”

“SACRED MUSIC 101”

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[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
. . .
Under a section appropriately headed "Innovations" the authors note, "The appointment of singers as a distinct class of officers in the Church for this part of religious worship, and the consequent introduction of profane music into the church, marks another alteration in the psalmody of the church. These innovations were first made in the 4th century; and though the people continued for a century or more to enjoy their ancient privilege of all singing together, it is conceivable that it gradually was forced to die, as a promiscuous assembly could not well unite in theatrical music which required in its performers a degree of skill altogether superior to that which all the members of a congregation could be expected to possess. An artificial theatrical style of music, having no affinity with the worship of God, soon began to take the place of those solemn airs which before had inspired the devotions of his people. The music of the theater was transferred to the church, which accordingly became the scene of theatrical pomp and display rather than the house of prayer and of praise, to inspire by its appropriate and solemn rites the spiritual worship of God."

The Church Historian J. A. Neander wrote, "We have to regret that both in the Eastern and the Western Church their sacred music had already assumed an artificial and theatrical character, and was so far removed from its original simplicity that even in the 4th century the abbot Pambo of Egypt complained that heathen melodies (Accompanied as it seems with the action of the hands and the feet) had been introduced into their Church psalmody"

Jerome (342-420 A.D.), in remarking upon Eph. 5:19, says: "May all hear it whose business it is to sing in the church. Not with the voice, but with the heart, we sing praises to God. Not like the comedians should they raise their sweet and liquid notes to entertain the assembly with theatrical songs and melodies in the church, but the fire of godly piety and the knowledge of the Scriptures should inspire our songs..."

The Roman Catholic Council of Trent (1545-1563) "arranged the choral service on a proper footing, freeing it from all extraneous matters, gave choral music also a sanction which it had hitherto wanted. From that time the Church of Rome began to display that profound veneration for choral music which it has continued to manifest down to the present day" The same spirit that worked to introduce the choirs and solos in ancient times is still at work and is seen in our agents of change.
. . .
John H. Waddey
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Source: John H. Waddey, editor of: http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/
E-Mail: JohnWaddey@aol.com
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See the thread: “WORSHIP IS NOT ENTERTAINMENT” for the entire article “SACRED MUSIC 101” posted on September 30, 2003.
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“IN CASE YOU DID NOT KNOW” . . .
John Waddey, editor of http://www.christianity-then-and-now.com/ warns:
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[[[[[~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Within our brotherhood is a body of men who are on a mission to impose changes on our churches. These agents of change are found primarily in our Christian Universities and larger urban churches. Their agenda includes changing the faith, worship and practice of the religion of Christ. So radical are the changes advocated that where they succeed a congregation will cease to be a Church of Christ such as we have known and will become a motley denominational body.

In the years following the Civil War this same type of trend developed among our people and the results were devastating. The progressives won a decisive victory and the faithful remnant who resisted them had to start all over again, rebuilding what had been lost. The heirs of that earlier change movement are the Disciples of Christ, Christian Churches in your community. It took us a nearly century to recover from that disaster and now we once more face that same cycle of apostasy.

One of our problems is awakening good brethren to the danger we face. In 1940, Bro. J. N. Armstrong of Harding College wrote the following lines describing the situation our brethren faced at the turn of last century:

"Not only did the defection leave us without schools, but those who introduced the (instrumental) music carried with them, also, the best church property, most of the wealth... All colleges, scholarships, church property, wealth ... became the inherited assets of the Christian Church" (A Piece of History, Christian Leader, Aug. 1, 1940).

Lest we suffer the same dire consequences yet again, we must arm ourselves with truth and take our stand now, before the situation is beyond repair….
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~]]]]]

====================================================
EVENTS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS IN THE MADISON MARCHER:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUL 23, 2003: “We are expanding the leadership of this great church. Terry Ashley, Mark Street, and Phil Coats are being added to the eldership today. We are so pleased to see this number grow and expect to be able to service more effectively with these men in place.”

AUG 6, 2003: “The Madison Church of Christ has always had a heart for children and will continue to respond to, assist, and nurture children. We have our camp, youth activities, classes, and other programs for children … Morning Star Sanctuary…. So, we need to support all of these activities through our Sunday School Contribution. The Childcare program … however, will be closed. The State of Tennessee Children’s Services has altered the approach to childcare….”

AUG 13, 2003: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited.”

SEP 3, 2003: “We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.” . . . “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers….” [also appeared in the next 2 weeks].

SEP 17, 2003: “Check your Saturday newspaper and find our new advertisement! . . . ||EVERY SUNDAY||--||Traditional Worship 8:00 am||--||Sunday School 9:30 am||--||Contemporary Worship 10:30 am||--||Evening Worship 6:00 pm|| . . . ||Pulpit Minister, Dr. C. Bruce White||--||Worship Minister, Keith Lancaster||” (NOTE: The “pulpit” and “worship” ministries are subject to your own interpretation—During the 90-minute contemporary assembly period, is the 20-minute preaching “A PART OF” or “APART FROM” worship? Is worship comprised of 60 minutes of mainly MUSICAL WORSHIP and the Love Feast activities?)

SEP 28, 2003: The message on this Sunday was “Worthy of Double Honor.” It had been announced: “We are planning a very special day on September 28. We will be honoring our shepherds that day.” Former elders (J.D. Elliott, Bobby McElhiney, Charles Link, etc., with their wives) were honored first; current elders, with their wives, were also honored. Bruce White announced the Ray Wilson (since 1992) resignation. [John Broadway (since 1998) had resigned about two months earlier.]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

====================================================
*WORSHIP ATTENDANCE RECORDS REPORTED IN THE MADISON MARCHER:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUL 20, 2003________1483
AUG 3 _____________1702
AUG 10 ____________1759
AUG 17 ____________1726
AUG 24 ____________1742
AUG 31 ____________1732
SEP 7______________1782
SEP 14_____________1722
SEP 21_____________1629
SEP 28_____________1498
*A count of 313 from the Ext. Dept. has been included in EACH of the totals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

====================================================
SURVEY OF MUSICAL WORSHIP AT 8:00 & 10:30——8 Sundays (8/10-10/5/03)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
8:00 A.M. (“TRADITIONAL”) ASSEMBLY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hymn : Contemporary Music RATIO = [8:1, 6:2, 10:0, 9:0, 8:3, 7:2, 7:1, 7:3] = [62:12]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ 62 (84%) = Hymns
------ 12 (16%) = Contemporary Music
------ 74 = Total
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10:30 A.M. (“CONTEMPORARY”) ASSEMBLY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hymn : Contemporary Music RATIO = [1:8, 2:9, 2:10, 0:11, 3:11, 2:10, 1:10, 0:13] = [11:82]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ 11 (12%) = Hymns
------ 82 (88%) = Contemporary Music
------ 93 = Total
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hymns were either sung for the following purposes or too new that required a special trio or Praise Team to perform:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Blue Skies and Rainbows (#851)—Children dismissed to Canaan’s Land
------ Freely, Freely (#852)—Contribution
------ He Paid a Debt (#859)—Communion; Contribution
------ When I Survey the Wondrous Cross (#742)—Communion
------ Soon and Very Soon (#16)—Trio [Spears, Ferguson, Owens] co-leading
------ O Sacred Head (#484)—Communion
------ The Spacious Firmament on High (#666)—Praise Team
------ The Lord Bless You and Keep You (#631)—Dismissal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would be remiss by providing recent stats in the preceding post without presenting a single point of reference for comparative analysis. Due to time and space restraints, let us briefly review the events since the Community Church Movement’s Saddleback scheme for “church growth” has been implemented. (I realize that by design it had been a gradual process for a number of years prior to 2001.)

JAN 2001 — Some of the members “begin to smell something strange”
FEB 2001 — Third worship service is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m.
FEB 2001 — Third [contemporary] and 10:30 to be merged, it is announced
FEB 2001 — Tom Haddon instructs “Homebuilders” transition to Saddleback scheme
MAR 2001 — Praise teams, handclapping and charismatic atmosphere introduced
APR 2001 — Growing controversy reported on News 5; deacons question elders
MAY 2001 — Drafted is the “Covenant of Membership”—not implemented yet
JUL 2001 — Larry Sullivan is in as mediator to help with split within the church
SEP 2001 — Format of services officially announced: everything will remain as is
OCT 2001 — J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney, elders, resign
OCT 2001 — Frank Scott preaches: “corporate worship,” joy, entertainment as terms
DEC 2001 — Bruce White is warmly welcomed as new minister
FEB 2002 — Elders resign: Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, Norman Slate
JUN 2002 — Charles Link resigns from eldership
AUG 2002 — Bruce White preaches a series of Kregg Hood’s sermons on “tithing”
—— 2003 — New elders are appointed; more elders resign
———————————————————————————————————————————

———————————————————————————————————————————
JAN 2001 — Note: [2002 census shows MCC with 3,142 members; 4,730 adherents]
JAN 2001 — Attendance: 3,000+ [?]
MAY 2001 — Attendance: 2498 — 2675 — 2403 — 2348
SEP 2001 — Attendance: 2163 — 2335 — 2577 — 2096
DEC 2001 — Attendance: 2148 — 2008 — 2039 — 2134 — 1985
JUL 2003 — Attendance: 1483 — (July 20)
AUG 2003 — Attendance: 1702 — 1759 — 1726 — 1742 — 1732
SEP 2003 — Attendance: 1782 — 1722 — 1629 — 1498
———————————————————————————————————————————
NOTE: ——— All figures above include a count of 300+ from the EXT department [?]
———————————————————————————————————————————

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QUESTION: When can we expect the implemented Saddleback design for church growth to take effect? Or, has the Madison body convincingly outsmarted the scheme . . . so far? We’ll see.

Remember that on July 17, 2002, there was a: Statement “6. We believe fervently in seeking the lost from our local neighborhoods, our inner cities, and our prisons, as well as emphasizing worldwide missions.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Donnie

====================================================
EVENTS AND ANNOUNCEMENTS IN THE MADISON MARCHER:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OCT 8, 2003: “Please pray for our shepherds. These men are going through some very trying meetings right now. The future of this congregation is weighing heavy on their hearts as they seek the Spirit’s guidance. They need your support and encouragement.”
=================================================

====================================================
*WORSHIP ATTENDANCE RECORDS REPORTED IN THE MADISON MARCHER:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JUL 20, 2003________1483
AUG 3 _____________1702
AUG 10 ____________1759
AUG 17 ____________1726
AUG 24 ____________1742
AUG 31 ____________1732
SEP 7______________1782
SEP 14_____________1722
SEP 21_____________1629
SEP 28_____________1498
OCT 5 _____________1681
*A count of 313 from the Ext. Dept. has been included in EACH of the totals.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
10:30 A.M. (“CONTEMPORARY”) ASSEMBLY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hymn : Contemporary Music RATIO = [1:11]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The only hymn sung is now unfamiliar to the younger generation. The WORSHIP LEADER “actually” gave folks time to open the hymnbooks. And then, of course, the Praise Team had to perform this hymn for the congregation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Lo! What a Glorious Sight #403
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WHAT ARE CHANGE AGENTS?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is a “closet change agent”? When asked this question, John Waddey responded as follows: “A change agent is a false teacher within the brotherhood of Churches of Christ who is not content to follow the faith and practice of Christianity as set forth in the pages of the New Testament. He or she therefore works to convince our brethren that they should adopt changes in their faith, worship and practice that will be more acceptable to the world of the 21st century. The adjective ‘closet’ means they operate undercover, or covertly to accomplish their evil purposes.”

Kenneth Sublett has stated in a recent post, “End Time Serpents with Horns”: “We have NOTED SEVERAL times that the band of CHANGE AGENTS all WRITE (Scribes) and they all endorse and sell one another’s books. Even events such as the recent “Look to the Hills” are the prophetic TRAFFICKING. This fulfills the first century and the present Satan sending out a FLOOD of waters trying to wash the Word and Church off the earth. [Many] churches are involved in the same thing on a lesser scale: sending out sermonic renderings and new style a cappella praise music to SEDATE. These are Apollo’s LOCUSTS whichever wing they fly on.”

Sublett states further: “There is now a FLOOD of new books. It suggests that the Accusers of the Church are in a TRAFFICKING pattern to make money and ACCUSE the brethren who pay their UNLAWFUL wages. It works, as Paul might say, ‘because fools love to be fooled.’”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WHO ARE CHANGE AGENTS?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
John Waddey states: “The most prominent of our self-appointed ‘agents of change’ is Bro. RUBEL SHELLY of Nashville, TN.” MAX LUCADO of the Oak Hills Church (formerly Oak Hills Church of Christ) is one of the prominent CHANGE AGENTS in the church today. His website describes him in “UpWords” (his teaching ministry) as a prolific writer “with more than 28 million books in print.” Other influential leaders of the change movement are Joe Beam, Lynn Anderson, Jeff Walling, Mike Cope, Terry Rush, and Marvin Phillips. There are others.

Waddey cites examples of who they are in his article “Little Men”:

--- Men who do harm to the body of Christ while being supported to build it up.
--- Men who claim to be helping the church while fomenting chaos and strife within.
--- Men who rush forward to offer a fix for the problems they themselves have created.
--- --- They offer staff services to help churches resolve the conflicts caused by their changes.
--- Men who seek to build their status and influence by bashing and attempting to discredit the godly …
--- --- preachers who blazed the trail before them and built the congregations where they now serve.
--- Men whose teaching and practice lowers respect for the authority of God’s Word.
--- Men who refuse to recognize and honor the church of Christ as the body of Christ.
--- Men who think they know more about how to worship God than did Christ . . .
--- Men who undertake to change the unchangeable kingdom of Christ.
--- Men who presume that the new is better than the old in the realm of faith.
--- --- They care nothing for the old paths (Jer. 6:16).
--- --- They are like the pagan Athenians, always searching for something new or different.
--- Men who’d rather not speak boldly of Christ as the “founder” of the church of Christ.
--- Men who prefer to speak of Campbell and Stone as founders of their denomination.
--- Men whose favorite word is “grace” to mean salvation without obeying its conditions.
--- Men who love to speak of “freedom” to ignore Bible teachings on worship restrictions.
--- Men who love freedom to fellowship and be accepted by denominational bodies.
--- Men who speak of “patternism” as a sarcastic put down of the brethren true to God’s pattern.
--- Men who thirst for an emotion-based worship in the electronic churches of the televangelists.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WHAT ARE SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF “CHANGE AGENTS” (AS THEY ATTEMPT TO PRESENT
THEMSELVES AS THEOLOGIANS WHO HAVE DISCOVERED NEW TRUTHS)?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change agents operate on faulty assumptions, John Waddey avers:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
--- That they have discovered a more spiritual kind of religion now than before.
--- That only they know, understand and appreciate the grace of God.
--- That only they understand the blessings/benefits of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling.
--- That our concept is “restoration” of a specific congregation from 1st century.
--- That they have discovered a new and superior approach to Bible interpretation.
--- --- With that they claim to have found the true nature of the church.
--- --- In reality, it is the old, emotion-based, subjective approach of Protestantism.
--- --- Their Bible is a story book, serving only as a source for quotes for sermons,
--- --- --- but not for regulating/guiding the faith, worship & practice of the church.
--- That we are only interested in the doctrines and practices of the church.
--- That we are not truly dedicated to Christ and trying to be like him—they are.
--- That we are narrow, bigoted, and legalistic—they’re not.
--- That we claim that we are a perfect church. (Do you claim that?)
--- That we claim that we have attained complete compliance with every aspect
--- --- of Christ’s will for us. (Do you claim that?)
--- That we have misunderstood the way men are to be saved.
--- That we should be labeled “traditionalists” for our unwillingness to change.
--- --- When the truth is this: it is not change that we reject; . . .
--- --- --- Rather, we reject unlawful departure from God’s authorized Word and way.
--- --- When we are willing to change non-essentials (NOT substance or nature), as:
--- --- --- The hour, the length or the order of services …
--- --- --- Trying new songs or new hymnals …
--- --- --- Considering different methods of observing a communion service …
--- --- --- Accepting names for the church as long as they are all biblical …
--- --- --- --- without dismissing or discrediting the name of Christ, its head
--- --- When we do not consider “apostolic” traditions such “other” traditions as:
--- --- --- A tradition of a one hour worship service—that can change
--- --- --- A tradition that calls for half hour sermons—that can change
--- --- --- A tradition that expects a preacher to wear a coat and tie—that can change
--- --- --- A tradition that we wear shoes to church—that can change
--- --- --- A tradition that our meeting houses are built accordingly—that can change
--- That they can promote their changes without making one realize that TO DO SO:
--- --- The concept of restoring the original New Testament church is abandoned.
--- --- The changes advocated were not a part of the original church.
--- --- Ties are severed with those noble saints who went before us.
--- --- --- The faith and preaching of those predecessors would be incompatible with
--- --- --- --- the advocates of change … Like oil and water they would not mix …
--- --- Changes proposed will make the congregation one of 1200 denominations.
--- --- You are alienated/out of fellowship with simple Christians—churches of Christ.
--- --- The faith once delivered to the saints is abandoned.
--- --- Participation in causing division in the body of Christ is a fearful thought.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Change agents are committed to change the church of Christ
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Please see the upcoming post: “ASSESSMENT TIME: EVALUATE THE AGENTS’ CHANGES DETRIMENTAL TO YOUR CONGREGATION.” The list of changes will reveal more of the characteristics and activities of change agents infiltrating, subverting the truth, fostering schism and acquiring your congregation. A careful examination of the list of changes will help pinpoint or isolate the SPECIFIC CHANGES that have caused “casualties”—expected or unexpected—in a particular congregation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
THE CHANGE PACKAGE: CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMMITTED TO TRANSFORMING THE CHURCH OF CHRIST
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Below is a compiled list taken from various sources, especially from various articles written by John Waddey. The list of changes will reveal more of the characteristics and activities of change agents infiltrating, subverting the truth, fostering schism and eventually acquiring your congregation. The purpose here is to have a means by which a congregation in transition or “transformation” stage may be evaluated in terms of the extent of progress made or the lack thereof. Churches vary in the level or depth of implementation of the Community Church scheme for church growth. For example, a congregation may adopt only a small segment from the list. But that segment may pinpoint or isolate the factors that have caused a church to grow or dwindle.

May I suggest that you print the list and mark only the items that, to the best of your knowledge, are applicable to your congregation’s situation. An honest personal evaluation may assist in determining where your congregation stands on particular conflicts and issues.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AGENTS ADVOCATING CHANGE: THEIR OBJECTIVES AND ACTIVITIES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Agents of change are busy rewriting our church history to: . . .
[_] --- Paint a different picture of the goals and intentions of our forefathers and
[_] --- Wish to cast their efforts as a “unity movement” and
[_] --- Depict them as seeking fellowship with and not rejecting denominationalism
[_] Prominent change agents are invited by churches and schools as guest speakers:
[_] --- Rubel Shelly, Max Lucado, Lynn Anderson, Jeff Walling, Joe Beam, etc.
[_] Interlopers must be resolved not to leave; others against change must leave
[_] Interlopers are not obligated to start their own from scratch
[_] Young people are the future of the church; their needs must be met with urgency
[_] Homebuilders (parents in their 30’s & 40’s) are the key to a successful program
[_] Transition is a long-range mission accomplished after passing of older generation
[_] Their goal is conquest and dominance of the entire brotherhood
[_] Their scheme is to first transform large congregations
[_] They insure that buildings, facilities and property are not acquired until fully paid
[_] They insure that the subverted will not overthrow their schemes and plans
[_] They are never to admit being false teachers so as not to be rejected
[_] They resort to warning the non-accepting brethren to “get over it”
[_] They claim to be helping the church to disguise their fomented chaos and strife
[_] They rush forward to offer a fix to disguise problems they have created
[_] They send a team to resolve conflicts caused by their changes
[_] They advocate that leading and guidance emanate from the Holy Spirit
[_] They label the unwilling to submit as narrow, bigoted, legalistic and Pharisaical
[_] They label the unwilling to submit as “traditionalists” and them as “progressives”
[_] They accuse the unwilling to submit as claiming to be the perfect church
[_] They claim to have found the true nature of the church
[_] They abandon the concept of restoring the original New Testament church
[_] They preach that the absence of a “thou shalt not” means a practice is condoned
[_] They sever ties with our predecessors as much as possible; discredit their efforts
[_] They label the unwilling to submit as the ones inconsiderate and without love
[_] They emphasize “fellowshipping” [among the sects]; “brotherhood” is exclusive
[_] They share fellowship with denominational preachers, churches and events
[_] They do not refer to “the Lord’s church”—that is being exclusive of others
[_] They do not refer to the church as the kingdom and also to the reign of Christ
[_] They refer to the church only as “our faith tradition” just as others have theirs
[_] They define “freedom” as a way to ignore Bible teachings on worship restrictions
[_] They feel extended “brotherhood” should encompass the Christian Churches
[_] They implement a market-driven program to provide what people want or seek
[_] They divide an existing congregation so as to implement the “community” model
[_] They have less contact and fellowship with mainline churches of Christ

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CRITICISM FOR EFFORTS OF THE PAST: EXAGGERATED AND ENCOURAGED
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] A superior way of “doing church” has been discovered
[_] Those over 50 are stubborn, close-minded and impervious to change
[_] The church of Christ of the Restoration Movement is just another denomination
[_] Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone founded the “Church of Christ”
[_] The church of Christ is a real, bona fide, but pitiful denomination
[_] The church of Christ is the poorest of the evangelical denominations
[_] Ties with those noble saints who went before us are severed
[_] The faith and preaching of predecessors are incompatible with those of change
[_] Men of Restoration were imperfect men and often taught erroneously

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COMMUNITY CHURCH: MODEL FOR CHURCH OF CHRIST IN TRANSITION
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Dismiss or discredit the biblical name “church of Christ”
[_] Despise and ridicule Christ’s church and make it irrelevant
[_] De-emphasize the glory and honor to Christ, the head and founder
[_] The name “church of Christ” is offensive to denominational groups
[_] Crave acceptance with neighbors of the evangelical churches
[_] Do not want to bear the stigma of being exclusive from the denominations
[_] Mask from the community any affiliation with other churches of Christ
[_] Choose the model of being a “non-denominational” community church.
[_] Prefer to identify with other groups rather than with your own brethren
[_] One motive is to place little or no emphasis on doctrinal loyalty
[_] Open to exchange, substitute or employ ministers from other denominations
[_] Allow acceptance of denominational churches as in good standing with God
[_] Encourage fellowship with denominational bodies
[_] The trend or direction is away from New Testament Christianity
[_] Transform congregations into charismatic, denominational churches
[_] Accept the new status of the church of Christ as a denomination

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MODERNIZE THE CHURCH: THE SECULAR- OR CULTURE-DRIVEN APPROACH
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Celebrate Jesus’ birthday, like it or not; observe the Christmas pagan holiday
[_] Celebrate the “special” annual resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday
[_] Celebrate and observe the Halloween
[_] Make Valentine’s Day a church event—apart from but similar to a social event

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BIBLE TRANSLATION & OTHER SOURCES: NEW TESTAMENT PRINCIPLES DEVALUED
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Do not be publicly identified as a church with exclusive beliefs
[_] The Saddleback manual, “The Purpose-Driven Church” is a must-have resource
[_] Bible study materials may be obtained from denominational sources
[_] Be not concerned about the NIV version—a translational dialogue to consensus.
[_] Church leaders should choose the NIV translation of the Bible for public reading
[_] Teachers should choose the NIV translation of the Bible (if used) in studies
[_] The New Testament is not the ultimate and absolute authority in faith matters
[_] Question the Bible’s inerrancy, its verbal inspiration and its authority
[_] The New Testament should not be viewed as a law to be obeyed.
[_] The New Testament should be viewed as a love letter from God to His children
[_] Church leaders should implement a Covenant of Membership—Saddleback model
[_] Use drama as a learning tool with made up (non-factual) stories to entertain
[_] Do less teaching directly from the scriptures as that would be too boring

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CHURCH LEADERSHIP, ORGANIZATION, GOVERNMENT: EXPERIMENTATION
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] “Shepherds” rather than “elders” is the preferred way to identify the leaders
[_] New concepts of leadership for the congregation may be experimented
[_] One approach to a new and improved leadership is by “hierarchical” design
[_] Use a different kind of leadership model than “authoritarian” elders
[_] Define the role of women in the larger context of the biblical witness
[_] Dispute the passages that relegate women to a silent role
[_] Allow women to assume leadership roles and positions in the life of the church
[_] Allow women to serve as deaconesses, as ministers or preachers
[_] Allow older women to teach classes with baptized young men present

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
WORSHIP: THE TRENDING “MUSICAL” WORSHIP CONTENT AND CASUALNESS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] It is not necessary to worship according to the New Testament pattern
[_] Change in worship content is excusable: because people like it
[_] Change in worship content is excusable: because young people demand it
[_] Change in worship content is excusable: because it feels so wonderful
[_] Change in worship content is excusable: where does the Bible forbid it?
[_] It should be an entertaining experience
[_] It should be based on emotion and popular opinion or practice
[_] Model emotion-based worship from the electronic churches of televangelists
[_] Use the excuse of “the audience of one” when musical worship is criticized
[_] Emphasize casualness in worship as a sign of being accepting
[_] Greatly emphasize “self,” including one’s own feelings and emotions in worship
[_] The Old Testament with its old laws is no less important to us than the New
[_] Provide the “traditional” and “contemporary” worship service alternatives
[_] Shorten the sermon; include more “religious” jokes or irrelevant funny stories
[_] Sermons may now end with an invitation to accept Christ by faith to be saved
[_] Tithing in Old Testament is binding on New Testament Christians
[_] Applaud the new convert after baptism as an outward show of rejoicing
[_] --- It won’t be long when there’s applause after the Communion
[_] Musical worship must be strongly emphasized
[_] The human-designated WORSHIP LEADER is now a high-level position
[_] The worship leader should initiate the handclapping on stage after a song
[_] The worship leader should encourage rhythmic handclapping while singing
[_] Allow the use of musical instruments in worship
[_] Allow the use of choirs, solos, duets, trios, quartets
[_] The choir must dominate the musical worship with excellent performances
[_] The choir must rehearse all parts of the musical worship in order to perform well
[_] The choir—not the congregation—must learn the new songs first
[_] The choir must deliver the music; the congregation may join in the singing
[_] For the transitioning church of Christ, the choir should be called “Praise Team”
[_] Music should be sometimes so complex that only the Praise Team can perform
[_] Praise songs and choruses should be “upbeat” to induce handclapping
[_] Use rhythmic, programmed handclapping to convey message of joy
[_] Use lifting of hand in prayer and singing to signify reaching up in praise
[_] Applaud after an exciting and cheering song has been sung
[_] Discourage the use of a hymn book and focus attention to the worship leader
[_] Discourage the use of a hymn book by not giving enough time to open it
[_] Avoid hymns unless there’s a “praise” song for the communion
[_] Avoid hymns unless there’s a “praise” song for the invitation
[_] Avoid hymns unless they’re new and hymn books may be opened then
[_] Avoid hymns unless they’re new and the Praise Team can perform them then

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
THE LORD’S SUPPER AND SOCIAL FELLOWSHIP—MORE THAN JUST A MEMORIAL
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] The sacred meal can be mixed with a common or fellowship or pot luck meal
[_] The feast may be observed on another day not ordained by God
[_] Frequency of observance may be monthly, quarterly as the denominations do
[_] It is not only a sacred memorial of the death of Christ
[_] It is also to be observed as a “joyful celebration”
[_] It is also the occasion or a means of “fellowshipping” one with another
[_] There should be some story telling and human testimonies to be meaningful
[_] Praise Team members must be skilled during the partaking of the Communion:
[_] --- while singing or humming, clapping, holding the microphone and sheet music
[_] --- and remembering Christ’s suffering, crucifixion and death

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DOCTRINES DERIVED FROM DENOMINATIONS: BIBLICAL TRUTH BEING PERVERTED
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Salvation is by grace through faith or by faith alone
[_] Deemphasize and deride the steps necessary for salvation
[_] De-emphasize the importance of baptism
[_] Baptism is no longer for the purpose of remitting sins
[_] Accept the Baptist doctrine of baptism as an after-the-fact ritual
[_] Baptism is the first act of obedience after being saved by faith
[_] Only accept the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Savior and be saved
[_] Follow the confession by praying the “sinner’s prayer” and be saved

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HOLY SPIRIT and SPIRITUAL GIFTS: TEACHINGS IMITATED BY THE AGENTS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[_] Worship “in spirit” should mean being “charismatic” in today’s language
[_] The holy Spirit of God or of Christ “directly” influences the individual Christian
[_] The holy Spirit of God or of Christ “directly” influences “the congregation”
[_] We must listen to the Holy Spirit for a call or whisper
[_] The indwelling of God’s Spirit makes a Christian “charismatic”
[_] Being “spirit-filled” means being “charismatic” in today’s language
[_] Music, although not listed in the Corinthian letter, is considered a spiritual gift
[_] Miracles, similar to those performed during the apostolic era, still exist today
[_] Speaking in tongues, contrary to I Corinthians 13, has not “ceased” yet
[_] Hold the Pentecostal view of another baptism—that of the Holy Spirit
[_] Perform “speaking in tongues” in public prayer as a testimony
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Donnie Cruz

Little thanks to Ken and lots of thanks to Donnie for this list and for John who may be unique among the "conservatives" for being able to READ THE SIGNS and willing to STAND UP, SPEAK UP and CAST OUT the agents who meet all of the end time, assuredly miraculous working of wicked signs as prophesied of Anti-Christ.

Is true, Donnie, the horns are MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS which AIDS the legendary queer Pan with his pan pipe of TEN HORNS to be the top billy goat of the mountains.

There are various numbers, especially 7 and 10, so it would be helpful to JELL OUT the key change agents. Most of them had ONE HOUR WITH antichrist as KEYNOTERS at Jubilee and other WORSHIP THE ANTICHRIST rituals such as LOOK TO THE HILLS: THEIR help truly comes from the MOUNTAIN GODS to which they look with the perversion of singing, clapping, instruments, females, drama and false doctrine.

Thanks for a few FAITHFUL WITNESSES. I still say, Watch your Backs--specificially, Pacifists will kill you.

Ken

some of these things have already started at our church Twin City Church of Christ in Festus,MO. SUCH AS HANDCLAPPING while singing and after a baptism. skits, short sermans and jokes more jokes than serman and new preaching called power points we don't have sunday school class where we stay in one book and take a chapter and study verse by verse. Right now they are teaching out of a book written by Fulenwider and very few people in class have a book because they cost over $20:00. What is your opinion of this book "The Servant Driven Church"? Also we have had songs picked out for us to learn and I'm not against learning songs but sometimes they don't have notes with them and we have already had a praise team to visit us and I think they were from the Madison Church of Christ. Please don't use my name because we still go there and are trying to get them to see this is not right. Don't know how much longer we can go there and the nearest true church is over 30 mi away and my husband is 70 and hard for him to drive he can't at nite. Thank you for your good works and may GOD bless you

Ray has made a career out of schemes to teach the Bible. At the time I met him he was clearly out to teach the Bible. However, it is easy to WORSHIP human methods and forget that the Bible was intended to be "taught as it has been taught." We have cut out and pasted up from birth to college class and we are dummed down.

Ray RIDES on Spring Woodlands on SAWDUST ROAD so expect some Billy Sunday stuff. The MINISTERS replacing the vocational deacons include Roberta Roper and Sandra Collins. All of the support staff are women. That is fulfilled prophecy.

http://www.swcc.net/contact.htm

They USE Joe Beam who has a direct access to God and his books do WHAT the Bible says of itself.

The USE musical praise teams (a pagan oxymoron)

OLD RUGGED CROSS

"I have uploaded the solo arrangement of OLD RUGGED CROSS. I have arranged this standard to be sung with Oo's during the verse by the PRAISE TEAM with a SOLOIST singing the appropriate verses as traditionally written. I generally take liberty with the rhythm and sing it very freely with EMOTION."

I see no connection with the Church of Christ which He built as an ekklesia or School of the Bible. The vocational elders were the PASTOR-TEACHERS and you have violated the Biblical understanding. The Deacons were full of the Spirit which meant "holding the mystery of the faith in a clear conscience." Deacon includes EVANGELISTS as Steven the "deacon" was call the "evangelist."

From their site: Spring Woodlands Church of Christ is a "STAFF-driven, Elder-directed" body of believers. This means that the eldership sets the DIRECTION of the body, while the STAFF, deacons, and volunteers DRIVE us there."

Interestingly, the STAFF INFECTION was healed by the death of Christ and the giving of A holy spirit to baptized believers. The burden was "spiritual anxiety created by religious ritual" which DISQUALIFIES a group as the Ekklesia of Christ. The word means to DRIVE a group like LADED pack animals. Jesus died to give us REST which means, "cool it, come aside with Me and I will DISCIPLE you. You don't need a STAFF to get into the Most Holy Place with me. In fact, the temple was to teach you that if singers (prostitutes) or musicians (sodomites) attempt to DRIVE you into my presence they will be SACRIFICED just like a dung-covered bull.

The ONLY fix is to spread the GOSPEL that there is no law of TITHING and there is NO LAW OF GIVING. If Corinth gave while Paul was there (perhaps three months) it would be, he said, EXTORTION. You have the power and if you don't exercise it and PREACH THE GOSPEL of Grace which STAFF INFECTION denies, you will be held accountable. The STAFF are now trained by ACU and others to be their PRODUCT to go out and MAKE CHANGES as PROPHETS, CHANELLERS and FACILITATORS. It is a feminist DOGMA which Caroll D. Osburn explains as a FEMINIST HERMENEUTIC which makes gradual changes by LITTLE ACTS OF TREASON.

Don't be in these pagan, perverted THEATERS FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT when Jesus comes (soon) and finds either you or your contribution for the LOURDEEE which is scammed off by STAFF which repudiates the BODY of Christ and makes the members AUDIENCE for professional music which ALWAYS had a MARK in the forehead as a STIGMATA of the the Babylon Whore of Revelation 18.

Jer 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.

Jer 3:4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?

God has DIVORCED these "temples" and sent the LOCUSTS or musical performers who had been the MUSES or singers now resurrected by Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon who is Satan, the father of the MUSICAL SEEKER CENTER at Delphi and Corinth. Their task is to DRIVE OUT those with the MARK of the Word and the SEAL of baptism. They take captive those who hate the Word by the use of MUSIC which is dozens of times identified as the MARK of the Beast: the beast is ZOE and her GROUP who pushes the FEMALE INSTRUCTING PRINCIPLE and forces "jehovah" to form musical worship teams to worship the feminist or effeminate PRAISE LEADERS. It is an unforgivable sin to TAKE A WAGE from widows and hard working people in order to LEAD THEM INTO GOD'S PRESENCE and take over the role of Jesus. It is one of the end-time prophesies where Lucifer (ZOE) intends to use music, drama and performance preaching to SILENCE the WORDS of Jesus Christ.

Polluters are explained by Daniel

DAN 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall POLLUTE the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the ABOMINATION that maketh DESOLATION.

Da.11:32 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by FLATTERIES

The Abomination which maketh Desolation was the worship of ZEUS (you can detect the Satanic agent: they call Jesus "Gee-Zeus." Pay attention, now. Little son, Dionysus, was worshipped as the god of the NEW WINESKIN. This included music, sexual perversion an other ABOMINATIONS. The Jews expected Dionysus as their Messiah as proven by writings at the time. The clergy PIPED hoping to identify Jesus as Dionysus if He would sing and dance the perverted Greek choral.

This is a SECULAR, CARNAL attempt to INFILTRATE and DIVERT to steal the church houses of widows and lead people away from the Biblical Jesus. The Babylon whore can be identified by:

Matt 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Matt 24:28 Wherever there is a carcase, there the vultures will gather.

And they will PICK YOUR BONES CLEAN.

The DEAD BODIES will still play SYNAGOGUE or gather but they are ROTTEN TO THE BONE. Already, the VULTURES have gathered by building a HUGE Hired staff which makes them prostitues of the free Words of Christ.

My e-mail works. Ken

The marks and signs of the change agenda are now evident in your congregation—the situation is sad and unfortunate. Handclapping is one visible trademark of the change scheme. It appears to be a minor thing and should not be an issue if it is an expression of pure, spontaneous joy. But when it is programmed, rehearsed, rhythmic and when it produces the loud noise simulating musical instrumentation (and loud enough to irritate, disrupt or interfere), then, it is irreverent, contemptuous and a mockery. Have you ever heard of “PROGRAMMED, REHEARSED OR RHYTHMIC JOY”? Have you ever heard of “PROGRAMMED, REHEARSED OR RHYTHMIC REJOICING”? If you haven’t before, you have now. I know God knows when it is pure joy. God knows, too, when it is a joke. A couple of passages to consider:

“[8] For what is the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul? [9] Will God hear his cry when trouble cometh upon him? . . . [22] For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. [23] Men shall CLAP THEIR HANDS AT HIM, and shall HISS HIM out of his place.” (Job 27, KJV)

“14] Thy prophets have seen vain and foolish things for thee: and they have not discovered thine iniquity, to turn away thy captivity; but have seen for thee false burdens and causes of banishment. [15] All that pass by CLAP THEIR HANDS AT THEE; they HISS and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they HISS and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.” (Lamentations 2, KJV)

Donnie Cruz

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QUOTING FROM THE ORIGINAL POST: “Also we have had songs picked out for us to learn and I'm not against learning songs but sometimes they don't have notes with them and we have already had a praise team to visit us . . .”
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Having a self-designated “WORSHIP LEADER” (which is superior to just being a “song leader”)—whatever that position means—is another mark or sign of the change scheme evident in your congregation. The WORSHIP LEADER must have his/her musicians. In the denominational world, these singers comprise the CHOIR. But in the congregation still transitioning or already transitioned, this group of musicians is called the PRAISE TEAM. To me this terminology is exclusive—the congregation that is supposed to be praising is NOT the praise team or part of it. The Praise Team members must rehearse the “MUSICAL WORSHIP” before their performances during the actual “contemporary MUSICAL WORSHIP” period. So, there’s nothing to worry about songs that are new or unfamiliar to you: the Praise Team is always ready to perform to you or for you.

This new concept of musical worship discourages the congregation from singing the great hymns of the past, as well as from opening the hymnals. The focus must be on the big screen for words, yes, WITHOUT NOTES. Why? So that people who can read musical notes must not learn on their own, but rely on the Praise Team. So that the congregation is destined to develop some kind of musical abnormality—it’s called “praise team dependency syndrome.” Those in the assembly must look at the WORSHIP LEADER perform his antics on stage, watch for musical direction, be aware when he initiates or signals when to accompany singing with handclapping, or pay attention when he initiates an applause after a “singy-clappy” song has just been sung. Watch him hypnotize you with the music beat that induces handclapping.

Do you now have a self-designated WORSHIP LEADER in your congregation?
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Donnie Cruz

Thanks for your question regarding clapping at a baptismal service. This is a new practice that has only emerged among us in recent years. For some 200 years, here in America, our brethren have not done so.

There is no mention in the New Testament of the early Christians doing so. Whence then did the practice arise? It can be found mentioned in the Old Testament. Ps. 47:1 reads "O clap your hands, all ye peoples; Shout unto God with the voice of triumph." Of course the fact that something was done under the Mosaic system does not authorize it for Christian worship. Under that system we find instrumental music, a separate priesthood, priestly garments, incense, animal sacrifices, Sabbath Day worship and numerous other things Christ did not choose to incorporate into his new system. I suspect that the practice had its genesis among us from those who watch and admire the theatrical type of preachers and services on the religious broadcast networks. Perhaps some of them have visited Pentecostal and emotional type Protestant services and observed first hand such emotional response to religious impulses. Such is not a very worthy foundation on which to base one's religious practice.

Having attended the Lord's church all of my life, and having been a preacher some 46 years, I find clapping at a service of worship to be distracting, disconcerting and offensive. True, that alone does not make it wrong. But those who wish to make changes in the way we worship must exhibit some maturity and responsibility beyond what feels good and is exciting to them.

If clapping is, as they think, neither right or wrong, then they should abstain from doing so if it is offense to their fellow-worshipers (I Cor. 10:23-24). This practice can easily slip into other forms of emotional expression that result in confusion and disorderly conduct. This Paul shows us is unacceptable (I Cor. 14:33,40). We are under obligation to do everything in our power to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bonds of peace (Eph. 4:3). If such unauthorized practices cause unhappiness and discord among brethren, those who introduce them are failing to maintain that unity. Since our commitment is to worship and serve as did the earliest Christians, those who want the excitement of clapping must acknowledge that such is not mentioned in the New Testament. There, outward expressions of approval in worship were with a vocal "Amen" (I Cor. 14:15-16).

I prefer to think that those who clap at a service do not do so for malicious reasons or to harm the body. It is primarily because they don't know any better, likely they have not been taught better. Perhaps a kindly word of concern spoken to your elders or preacher would be sufficient to stop this practice. I see this as part of a trend away from simple Bible based worship toward an emotion-based and sensational type of service. That we don't need and Scripture certainly does not approve of.

John Waddey

Questions about Donnie's remarks:

1) Are singers the same thing as musicians? Donnie says yes. Then all who sing in the congregation are musicians...right?

2) Why does a praise team rehearse? Donnie says because they perform. Maybe you'd actually want someone to rehearse if you're putting a microphone in front of them.

3) Why have words on the big screen without notes? Donnie says it's to dumb down the congregation. Maybe there's no logistical way to put the notes up there due to size.

4) Why call them a "praise team?" Donnie says that it's because they're the only ones praising. Maybe they should be called the "song-leading team." Would that solve the problem?

I don't disagree with you, Donnie. Sometimes you draw parallels that just aren't there. Can you just make your point without the meaningless inferences please?

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1) Are singers the same thing as musicians? Donnie says yes. Then all who sing in the congregation are musicians...right?
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A) God is love, but love is not God. “Musician” is defined as “a person who sings or who plays on a musical instrument [trumpet or instrument-simulating handclapping, dc], especially as a profession or business. An orchestra is composed of many musicians.” Just like an orchestra, a choir or a praise team is composed of a special group of singers designated to do a special task. If the task is not special (and in all fairness), then, each member of the congregation should have a microphone as well.
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2) Why does a praise team rehearse? Donnie says because they perform. Maybe you'd actually want someone to rehearse if you're putting a microphone in front of them.
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A) Performance does not preclude rehearsing. Get a praise team to perform without rehearsing at all and every time, and see what happens when it performs. Otherwise, get rid of each praise team member’s microphone; then, he/she would be just like everyone else in the congregation—singing, not performing.
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3) Why have words on the big screen without notes? Donnie says it's to dumb down the congregation. Maybe there's no logistical way to put the notes up there due to size.
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A) Then, have a much bigger and wider screen. Otherwise, resort to using the hymnbook and give folks the time to open the hymnals so that those who read notes can learn and sing at the same time—and not rely on or “echo” (a delayed response to) the praise team’s voices. Unfortunately, hymns are becoming “extinct” in contemporary “musical” worship.
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4) Why call them a "praise team?" Donnie says that it's because they're the only ones praising. Maybe they should be called the "song-leading team." Would that solve the problem?
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A) What’s wrong with the IMPLICATION when I said earlier, “To me this terminology [PRAISE TEAM] is exclusive—the congregation that is SUPPOSED TO BE PRAISING is NOT the praise team or part of it”? I did not say “they’re the only ones praising.” When the congregation sings, either the entire assembly—including the praise team members—should be THE PRAISE TEAM, or forget about the “Praise Team” designation altogether. Whether it’s right or wrong, it becomes an issue and it creates conflict. The truth of the matter is that Madison had been doing just fine before the “WORSHIP” LEADERSHIP and “Praise Team” concepts were introduced. Finally, your WORSHIP LEADER is doing an excellent job directing and producing the MUSICAL program and performing his antics on stage—he does not need a “song-leading team.” But if the praise team should be a “song-leading team,” would that not exclude the women from the group—hmmm!
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An e-mail has been received in response to an invitation from ConcernedMembers stating its two-fold purposes that: “(1) We wish to set forth those fundamentals of New Testament Christianity which virtually all members of the church have held dear in the past; and (2) We want to respond to those who no longer care for the idea of restoring the ancient faith and thus are challenging things we view as fundamental to the faith.”

This response from Cedar Falls, Iowa, stated: “I would like to know more about your organization or mission.”

In turn, we replied as follows: “Greetings! Hopefully you have already taken the time to check out the site. The main page explains our mission. Thanks for asking!” Well, the interaction did not stop there. And I am so glad that I received the following sincere and honest alarming statements from the respondent. Read on:

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I did, but it does not address what I am asking.

I grew up in the church and have been a Christian for 40+years.

More and more it seems like the church is being torn apart; some wanting to make innovations; some wanting to do things the way we always did it.

I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this.

I am also troubled by wanting to bind traditions that are not scripture based. In fact, I think the church has done a lot of harm and pushed away a lot of people by finding scriptural basis that is less than credible.

I am troubled by "Carnal Christians" of either of the above camps.

I am very troubled by some of the translations found in cheap Bibles, especially the NIV. Dynamic equivalence to me amounts to deciding what you want it mean and then making easy to read sentences that say what you want it to say. It is worse than a paraphrase because it is passed off as an honest translation.
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RESPONSE TO CEDAR FALLS, IA: IT’S ABOUT APOSTOLIC TRADITIONS—NOT MAN’S
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Thanks so much for responding.

Speaking of traditions, we must keep the “apostolic” teachings and traditions, e.g., observance of the Communion, worship, baptism unto (not because of) the remission of sins, etc. So, it is about the content or substance of these principles or commands—NOT about the non-essentials of these things.

As an example, prominent CHANGE AGENTS in the church are now teaching the Baptist doctrine of baptism as an after-the-fact ritual, meaning that one is baptized AFTER having been saved already by merely accepting Christ as his personal Savior through faith. In other words, the CHANGE AGENTS consider baptism as the first act of obedience only AFTER one has already become a Christian. This is just one of the false teachings that the church is facing in the postmodern era. Baptism as NO LONGER a requirement or condition to receiving the forgiveness of sins is just one of the unscriptural doctrines that the church must guard against. This warning is expressed in II Thessalonians 2:15 (KJV)—“Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Another example is regarding worship as explicitly mentioned in John 4:23,24. Here, again, it is not about the NON-ESSENTIALS—the number of hymns sung and when they were written, the length of the service, etc. However, when “MUSICAL WORSHIP” is dominant, entertainment-driven, performance-oriented, and the main focus in worship, we believe that worship CONTENT is altered and affected, that worship is no longer Word-centered, and that worship is misdirected. After all, in the assembly of the saints on THE first day of THE week [notice the definite article “the” preceding both “day” and “week”], Acts 20:7 emphasizes the observance of the Lord’s Supper, as well as the preaching or teaching of God’s word.

MUSIC is never related to worship in the New Testament. Neither is it the focus—much less the primary focus—in any gathering of the saints. When singing occurs (since it is NOT a command), in scope, it should be congregational (one to another) with the associated primary TASK of “teaching and admonishing” and with the associated primary CONTENT of “the word of Christ.” Here’s the exact quote from Colossians 3:15,16 (KJV)—“And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are CALLED IN ONE BODY; and be ye thankful. Let the WORD OF CHRIST DWELL IN you richly in all wisdom; TEACHING AND ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, SINGING WITH GRACE in your hearts to the Lord.”

In the “contemporary” assembly on this Sunday, 10/19/03 [should you wonder about that DIVISIVE designation], there was a slight improvement in that the worship “program” included a couple of hymns this time [yippy!]. They were: “What a Fellowship” (#394) before [and just fitting for] the Love Feast and “Holy, Holy, Holy” (#238), which was sung reverently. However, one of the several contemporary music pieces that were sung was “Hallowed Be Thy Name,” with programmed and “induced joy” of the rhythmic handclapping accompaniment, clearly initiated by the “WORSHIP LEADER” and with applause after the singing, also initiated by the same. Performance by the Praise Team (“Church of Christ” choir) was evident throughout the assembly period.

In “Hallowed Be Thy Name,” the word “hallowed” is defined as “made holy; sacred; consecrated; honored as holy or sacred.” I parallel the sacred atmosphere in this song to how it is described in Exodus 3—“[4] And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. [5] And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is HOLY GROUND. [6] Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses HID HIS FACE; for he was afraid to look upon God.” What contrasting scenes! And to stress my point, let me just quote the statement from the e-mail: “I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this.” I believe that the leadership at Madison is still not convinced that this scenario is what has driven hundreds of its own members away from the MUSICAL WORSHIP ENTERTAINMENT CENTER.

The last paragraph of your letter regarding the N.I.V. “translation” of the Bible was very well stated: “I am very troubled by some of the translations found in cheap Bibles, especially the NIV. Dynamic equivalence to me amounts to deciding what you want it mean and then making easy to read sentences that say what you want it to say. It is worse than a paraphrase because it is passed off as an honest translation.”

You may not be aware that this is one of the CHANGE AGENTS’ culture-driven schemes. The congregations “in transition” are using the N.I.V. “translation” of the Bible as their official version. Madison is quoting exclusively from the N.I.V. all the texts and passages displayed on the big screen for congregational or “responsive” reading of the Scripture. Even the former and visiting minister today, Dr. Steve Flatt, was quoting passages from the N.I.V. as he delivered his sermon “Are You Tuned in?”

Finally, let me just quote from an independent, outside source, “The Diabolical System of Diaprax” (Christian Media – February 25, 2002): “Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — A TRANSLATIONAL DIALOGUE TO CONSENSUS [emphasis, dc].”

I trust that I have addressed what you were asking initially. (For your information, I will post this response under the thread: “WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK.”) If you have further questions and issues that need to be addressed, please do not hesitate to let us know.

Let us not confuse “apostolic tradition” with the “tradition of men.” Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” (Colossians 2:8, K.J.V.)

Thank you for the correspondence.

In His service,

Donnie Cruz
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Thanks for your reply. It does answer my question.

I pray that the church will find unity and reapply itself to the mission that Jesus left us here to do, spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ to a lost world.

In the love and grace of God,

Ron Burk

Those campaigning to impose changes on churches of Christ have high on their list, changes in our song worship. They wish to make the use of instrumental music in worship acceptable to our people. They also want to introduce CHOIRS and SOLOISTS. They feel driven to replace our traditional hymns with "contemporary Christian music" and "youth songs." TO ENHANCE THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT OF SONG WORSHIP, THEY WANT TO BE FREE TO CLAP THEIR HANDS, AND LIFT THEM HIGH IN IMITATION OF THEIR CHARISMATIC NEIGHBORS AND THE TELEVANGELISTS.

In this article we wish to address the choice of hymns we sing in worship assemblies. Some preliminary thoughts are in order:

--- With the exception of the psalms and a few songs based solely on a scripture text, all hymns are human productions. Their quality and value depends on the poetic and musical skills of the author, his knowledge and understanding of the Bible and the Scriptural sentiments incorporated in them.

--- All the songs in our hymnals were once new. Thus, being new is not itself a proper objection to using a hymn.*

--- That a song leader selects a song that is not in our hymnals does not make them wrong or suspect. Hymnals for all worshipers are of fairly recent origin. Though they are a wonderful convenience they are not essential to our salvation or acceptance to God.

--- That songs are projected on a screen is not a question of right or wrong. It matters not whether we read the words from a printed page in a book or from a printed page projected on a screen.

Some things do matter. If singing is to be congregational, everyone needs to be able to participate in it. If a leader chooses songs, not in the hymnal, that only young people know, then older members have little choice but to SIT AND LISTEN TO THE OTHERS until they can learn them by memory. If the use of such songs CREATES resentment or dissatisfaction within the church family, then we have to think in terms of one person's choice of his favorite songs, CAUSING OFFENSE to his brother. This is the same type of issue as the eating of meats which had been sacrificed to idols, which Paul addressed in I Corinthians. The apostle demonstrated the proper Christian response, "If meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble" (I Cor. 8:13). If my insistence on changing the type of songs we use in our worship CAUSES DIVISION, and it can and will happen, then I will bear the responsibility of having caused division over a matter that at best is a matter of opinion and preference. For such I will surely stand condemned (Rom. 16:17-18). Without question, many of the contemporary Christian songs have lovely, spiritual lyrics and can be used in our worship without Biblical objection. Some of them will eventually find their way into our hymnals and become a permanent part of our body of hymns. Those that have UNSCRIPTURAL sentiments should be weeded out and cast aside. Those that are TRIVIAL should not be introduced as SONGS of worship.

My concern is that we not cast aside great hymns of the faith that have earned a place in our hymnody and that generations of saints have sung in worship. While popular music is generally on the charts only for a few weeks, or at best for one generation, some Christian hymns have been popular with saints for a hundred years or more. It is ARROGANT for a new generation to declare such spiritual treasures OBSOLETE or BORING and insist on replacing them with their "new" songs.

In one of his great books C. S. Lewis expressed his disdain for those in his Anglican church who were constantly tampering with the worship and especially rewriting or discarding the old hymns. He correctly observed that sacred songs are the ties that link our faith to those gone before. When I sing "The Old Rugged Cross," it evokes precious memories from my youth when with my grandparents I sang it in worship. Goethe wrote, "Music, in the best sense, does not require novelty; nay, the older it is, and the more we are accustomed to it, the greater the effect." Mrs. L. E. Landon observed "Music–we love it for the buried hopes, the garnered memories, the tender feelings it can summon at a touch." By eliminating the great and familiar hymns of the past, we separate today's Christians from their ancestors in the faith.

When THOUGHTLESS LEADERS fill their song service with new songs, known only by a select group, it forces those not of that group to listen to the others perform. When ONE GROUP IS RELEGATED TO THE ROLE OF OBSERVERS, it makes for an easier transition to a CHOIR WHO SING FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT OF SPECTATORS.

Paul's exhortation to the Corinthians is applicable for today. If your new songs are sung with the most beautiful tongues of men and angels, but you have not love for your older brethren, you are become sounding brass and clanging cymbals. (I Cor. 13:1). If you are truly zealous of spiritual singing, "see that ye... abound unto the edifying of the church" (I Cor. 14:12). New hymns should be introduced and used like salt on food—sparingly. Too much will defeat the purpose for using either of them.

John Waddey

When I read web sites such as “concerned members,” my soul is troubled. I truly fear we are neglecting the “weightier matters of the law” Matt. 23:23. I truly believe Jesus would throw all of us out (conservative and liberal) with the money changers because we have lost focus of our first love. We spend so much of our time fighting each other instead of fighting the devil.

In the Old Testament, the “worship service” was much more defined, from the “preacher’s outfit” (the priestly garments in Ex. 28) down to the dimensions and layout of the “church building” (the tabernacle in Ex 25-26). I believe there is a reason why New Testament worship was much less defined…because like the Pharisees, we would elevate format over transformation. When we define what is appropriate and not appropriate in areas where scripture has nothing to say, are we any different that the Pharisees defining what is considered work on the Sabbath?

I am appalled at the attempts of some to make something such as applause after a baptism a scriptural issue. I think it is a classic example of preference. Those who favor the applause believe that it is simply an affirmation of the event that just happened. If we can applaud our child we he takes his first step walking then why not when he takes his first Christian steps as well? Those who oppose applause believe it to be not as reverent as saying “Amen” or nothing at all. If you allow this to be a divisive issue, then you are at fault! What is wrong with respecting the right of those who desire to clap and those who desire not to clap?

The argument stating “that since there is no example of the first century Christians applauding after baptism therefore we should not” simply does not hold water (pardon the pun). There is no first century example of using a baptistery, song books, flannel boards, or the baptizer raising his hand when saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” but these are done without any objection. We have no problem with exchanging “a holy kiss” (Rom 16:16) with a handshake, or wine with grape juice, or a Jewish synagogue with a church building, but because hand clapping is not been in our tradition it is unscriptural? Conservative churches tend to object to small groups format of meeting in homes for bible study. However, if we look to the Bible (Acts 12:12, 16:40) who is following the New Testament pattern?

There has never been a time when the church has “gotten it right,” even in the supposed heyday of the churches of Christ, the fifties (or the thirties or you pick the time frame). Even if in the fifties the forms of worship were exactly what God had intended, most churches would not allow a brother in Christ to worship with them simply because of the color of his skin. You tell me which would God be more angry about “hand clapping” or “racial hatred/bigotry.” Sometimes we do need to change!

Is it wrong to desire to sing songs that we have sung for 50 years? No! Is it wrong to sing songs that reflect the language and the style of the day? No! Is it wrong to let something as little as hand-clapping or song styles to allow you to judge another’s heart or foment hatred or cause division in the body of Christ? YES! Whenever a church splits, BOTH SIDES share in the blame. However after the split, I see the liberal side put more energy into preaching to the lost and helping the poor, and the conservative side with talking bad about the liberals on websites like this! Jesus came to give us the “abundant life.” (John 10:10) Isn’t there something more abundant to do than acting as a balcony critic at a church with which you disagree?

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ANONYMOUS POSTED: [When I read web sites such as “concerned members,” my soul is troubled. I truly fear we are neglecting the “weightier matters of the law” Matt. 23:23. I truly believe Jesus would throw all of us out (conservative and liberal) with the money changers because we have lost focus of our first love. We spend so much of our time fighting each other instead of fighting the devil.]
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RESPONSE: As a point of reference, the above post is in response to the preceding article titled: IT’S ABOUT “APOSTOLIC” TRADITIONS—NOT "MAN-MADE" TRADITIONS. You brought up good points regarding the “weightier matters” stated in your reference to Matt. 23:23 which states—“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (KJV)

In your article, you mentioned a couple of elements in worship that have been discussed quite extensively on this forum. I gather from you—saying that when there is applause after a baptism, those who oppose such a reaction believe it to be not as reverent as an “Amen” or silence. Maybe… You also cited the selection of songs and “as little as hand-clapping” that may accompany the singing.

Jeremy, you listed items and their uses in today’s worship, which weren’t used by the first century Christians—baptistery, song books, flannel boards, the church building. And you ask—what about the handshake instead of “a holy kiss” or grape juice instead of wine in the Communion, etc. Well, this list can go on and on. And your point is that these elements should not create controversy by today’s standard. It follows, then, that applause after baptism or handclapping while singing should not considered wrong. Good point. But let me explain.

I believe we should first consider whether or not an element or activity in worship is what would be considered an essential. Observing the Communion on the first day of the week is an essential—it is commanded and it was practiced by the 1st century Christians; it was also practiced past that period in history according to writings of the early church fathers. Teaching or preaching of God’s word is also an essential.

Non-essentials unspecified in the scriptures, therefore, should not create controversies—getting back to your point. A baptistery, the church building, power point, microphones, etc., are non-essentials in the sense that the Bible gives no specific directives regarding these matters. Neither should applause after baptism nor handclapping during singing. Remember that no one says either activity is wrong or sinful or to be condemned. (Side point: Has anyone realized that contemporary music discourages the use of hymnbooks?)

Having said all that—so, what is the problem? One problem has nothing to do with worship style or format, but with content. I believe that when MUSICAL WORSHIP programming is the main emphasis in the assembly, rather than “Word” content (teaching and preaching of God’s word), then, it is one colossal problem. Music was never the primary emphasis in the assembly of the early Christians, if at all. There’s not even a command to sing (oops—something to think about), although singing may occur in teaching and admonishing one another the “word of Christ” (which is probably another topic of discussion). But the point is—worship content, not format. Another problem with the non-essential is its effect upon other Christians. For example, I personally consider programmed, rhythmic handclapping as totally unnecessary and of no value. In fact, it is very annoying in worship … in as much as I’m so used to cheerleaders in sport events performing their normal routines. You and I would know instantly when joy or inner joy causes a person to clap spontaneously—it is not rhythmic at all. Do you see what I’m saying here? If such a worthless activity is an annoyance or a distraction to others in the assembly, why even do it? We certainly can “live without it” and we create a problem for others with it. In the case of applauding after baptism, I do not see it as wrong or sinful in and of itself. But it creates a problem to certain people in the assembly. In either case, we’ve managed for so long without either activity interrupting or disrupting or annoying someone in the assembly. So, why create a problem now?

What we need to take into consideration is not necessarily finding good reasons for doing such things because the Scripture does not condemn, but rather taking into consideration what preserves or maintains unity in the church in matters that are non-essential. Our greater problems in the church now—you would not believe—have more to do with doctrinal issues that relate to man’s salvation. For example, Max Lucado (one of the prominent change agents operating in the “brotherhood” today) now preaches and teaches that baptism unto the remission of sins is no longer necessary for salvation. (We’ll save that topic for some other time.) But my point is that if the non-essential element or activity causes a problem, then, why do it or continue doing it? If church leaders are not aware of these problems and are not careful in maintaining peace and unity in the body of believers, we’ll be witnessing history repeat itself—church schism.

Finally, I believe it is a very unfair assessment when this site is being looked at as soul-troubling, when it’s only trying to warn congregations against perversion of the truth and practices that create havoc and disunity in the church.

Donnie Cruz

Donnie:

I just wanted to let you know that the above post was not sent in by me. Yeah, it has the same IP address, but whoever sent it was at Lipscomb at the time. Our internet server uses the same IP address for everyone on an external level, so I just wanted you to know that it wasn't me you were reading a post from.

Sorry, Jeremy and Anonymous.

The content and style and previous discussions with you had much to do with it. Also, I was thinking that you had recently inadvertently sent a post without your signature.

Anyway, it was a well-written article.

Thanks for letting me know.

Donnie

In the preceding post, I mentioned worship content, rather than style or format, as an issue. I emphasized that in regard to matters considered as non-essential, it is important for church leaders to recognize how innovations might adversely affect the unity and peace among the members.

In my original post titled, “RESPONSE TO CEDAR FALLS, IA: IT’S ABOUT APOSTOLIC TRADITIONS—NOT MAN’S” … I quoted one correspondent to this site as follows:

[[[[[ … I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. … I am very troubled by some of the translations found in cheap Bibles, especially the NIV. Dynamic equivalence to me amounts to deciding what you want it mean and then making easy to read sentences that say what you want it to say. It is worse than a paraphrase because it is passed off as an honest translation….]]]]]

Well, I have really given a lot of thought to what this Christian from Tulsa, OK, is concerned about. The likelihood is that when one feels this way in a congregation, there are others who share that same feeling or concern within that same body of believers. And just now I was thinking about Tulsa, OK—wherefrom Booker Murphy is, who partly led the musical worship this Sunday, 11/16/03. [Tulsa, OK—is this Oral Roberts’ city charismatic church? Tulsa, OK—is this some “Pentecostal orgiastic” church this brother was referring to?] I also happened to think when I was reviewing the “contemporary musical worship program” that the always-there “congregational/responsive” scripture reading from the N.I.V. (the adopted “official” Bible version for the MCC) was missing. I could only surmise the reason behind it.

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ON THE RECORD: THE MUCH ADVERTISED “THANKSINGING 2003” (MADISON MARCHER)
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Madison Church of Christ “THANKSINGING 2003” November 16, 5:30 pm
Featuring:
——— Keith Lancaster, Worship Minister, Madison Church of Christ, Madison, TN
——— Booker Murphy, Worship Leader, Tulsa, OK
——— Jerome Williams, Worship Leader, Lake Cities Church, Trophy Club, TX
——— Special Guests: X-changed (Lipscomb University)
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ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 11-16-03
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SONG: — — — “I Love to Be in Your Presence” —————————— Keith Lancaster
SONG: — — — “I Love the Lord Messiah”
LOVE FEAST:
SONG: — — — “Great Are You Lord”
SONG: — — — “Hosanna”
PRAYER: ————————————————————————————— Alan Clark
WELCOME: ———————————————————————————— C. Bruce White
SONG: — — — “Surround Us, Lord”
SONG: — — — “Give Thanks with a Grateful Heart”
SONG: — — — “Step by Step” —
SONG: — — — “To Canaan’s Land I’m on My Way (#694) ————— Booker Murphy
SONG: — — — “Amen” —————————————————————— Booker Murphy
PRAYER: —————————————————————————————— Ray Pippin
SONG: — — — “O How He Loves You and Me (#880)
COMMUNION: ———————————— Jim, Michael, Travis, Austin and Collin Lanier
REGULAR CONTRIBUTION: ————————————————————— Robin Guidicy
SONG: — — — “God Will Make a Way”
SONG: — — — “I’ve Got the Joy” — — — — (Children dismissed to Canaan’s Land)
SONG: — — — “How Majestic Is Your Name (#857)
PRAYER: —————————————————————————————— Russ Kersten
SERMON: “A Man for God’s Use” —————————————————— C. Bruce White
SONG: — — — “On Bended Knee”
SPECIAL CONTRIBUTION [yearly, towards indebtedness]
SONG: — — — “Blessed Be the Lord God Almighty”
SHEPHERD’S PRAYER: ————————————————————————Russ Kersten
———— [Nov. 16 Prayer emphasis: Deacons/Ministry Leaders
———— [Both men and women leaders were on stage with “laying on of hands”
SONG: — — — “Victory in Jesus (#717)
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ON THE RECORD: Combined 8:00 and Contemporary Attendance 11-2-03 —— 1664
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REMINDER: Quoting from an independent, outside source, “The Diabolical System of Diaprax” (Christian Media – February 25, 2002): “Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — A TRANSLATIONAL DIALOGUE TO CONSENSUS [emphasis, dc].”
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Donnie Cruz

Those campaigning to impose changes on churches of Christ have high on their list, changes in our song worship. They wish to make the use of instrumental music in worship acceptable to our people. They also want to introduce CHOIRS and SOLOISTS. They feel driven to replace our traditional hymns with "contemporary Christian music" and "youth songs." TO ENHANCE THE EMOTIONAL ASPECT OF SONG WORSHIP, THEY WANT TO BE FREE TO CLAP THEIR HANDS, AND LIFT THEM HIGH IN IMITATION OF THEIR CHARISMATIC NEIGHBORS AND THE TELEVANGELISTS.

In this article we wish to address the choice of hymns we sing in worship assemblies. Some preliminary thoughts are in order:

--- With the exception of the psalms and a few songs based solely on a scripture text, all hymns are human productions. Their quality and value depends on the poetic and musical skills of the author, his knowledge and understanding of the Bible and the Scriptural sentiments incorporated in them.

--- All the songs in our hymnals were once new. Thus, being new is not itself a proper objection to using a hymn.*

--- That a song leader selects a song that is not in our hymnals does not make them wrong or suspect. Hymnals for all worshipers are of fairly recent origin. Though they are a wonderful convenience they are not essential to our salvation or acceptance to God.

--- That songs are projected on a screen is not a question of right or wrong. It matters not whether we read the words from a printed page in a book or from a printed page projected on a screen.

Some things do matter. If singing is to be congregational, everyone needs to be able to participate in it. If a leader chooses songs, not in the hymnal, that only young people know, then older members have little choice but to SIT AND LISTEN TO THE OTHERS until they can learn them by memory. If the use of such songs CREATES resentment or dissatisfaction within the church family, then we have to think in terms of one person's choice of his favorite songs, CAUSING OFFENSE to his brother. This is the same type of issue as the eating of meats which had been sacrificed to idols, which Paul addressed in I Corinthians. The apostle demonstrated the proper Christian response, "If meat causeth my brother to stumble, I will eat no flesh for evermore, that I cause not my brother to stumble" (I Cor. 8:13). If my insistence on changing the type of songs we use in our worship CAUSES DIVISION, and it can and will happen, then I will bear the responsibility of having caused division over a matter that at best is a matter of opinion and preference. For such I will surely stand condemned (Rom. 16:17-18). Without question, many of the contemporary Christian songs have lovely, spiritual lyrics and can be used in our worship without Biblical objection. Some of them will eventually find their way into our hymnals and become a permanent part of our body of hymns. Those that have UNSCRIPTURAL sentiments should be weeded out and cast aside. Those that are TRIVIAL should not be introduced as SONGS of worship.

My concern is that we not cast aside great hymns of the faith that have earned a place in our hymnody and that generations of saints have sung in worship. While popular music is generally on the charts only for a few weeks, or at best for one generation, some Christian hymns have been popular with saints for a hundred years or more. It is ARROGANT for a new generation to declare such spiritual treasures OBSOLETE or BORING and insist on replacing them with their "new" songs.

In one of his great books C. S. Lewis expressed his disdain for those in his Anglican church who were constantly tampering with the worship and especially rewriting or discarding the old hymns. He correctly observed that sacred songs are the ties that link our faith to those gone before. When I sing "The Old Rugged Cross," it evokes precious memories from my youth when with my grandparents I sang it in worship. Goethe wrote, "Music, in the best sense, does not require novelty; nay, the older it is, and the more we are accustomed to it, the greater the effect." Mrs. L. E. Landon observed "Music–we love it for the buried hopes, the garnered memories, the tender feelings it can summon at a touch." By eliminating the great and familiar hymns of the past, we separate today's Christians from their ancestors in the faith.

When THOUGHTLESS LEADERS fill their song service with new songs, known only by a select group, it forces those not of that group to listen to the others perform. When ONE GROUP IS RELEGATED TO THE ROLE OF OBSERVERS, it makes for an easier transition to a CHOIR WHO SING FOR THE ENTERTAINMENT OF SPECTATORS.

Paul's exhortation to the Corinthians is applicable for today. If your new songs are sung with the most beautiful tongues of men and angels, but you have not love for your older brethren, you are become sounding brass and clanging cymbals. (I Cor. 13:1). If you are truly zealous of spiritual singing, "see that ye... abound unto the edifying of the church" (I Cor. 14:12). New hymns should be introduced and used like salt on food—sparingly. Too much will defeat the purpose for using either of them.

John Waddey

Bro. Waddey,
Thank You so much for this fine article! I hope that many people read this and seriously think about the things you said. You are exactly right.

Larry.

QUOTED: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. … I am very troubled by some of the translations found in cheap Bibles, especially the NIV. Dynamic equivalence to me amounts to deciding what you want it mean and then making easy to read sentences that say what you want it to say. It is worse than a paraphrase because it is passed off as an honest translation….]]]]]

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ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 11-23-03
(SOME SONGS WITH LOUD RHYTHMIC HANDCLAPPING ACCOMPANIMENT AND UNINTELLIGIBLE SOUNDS)
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Ephesians 5:19—“Speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and
--- --- making melody WITH YOUR HEART to the Lord” (NASB)
Colossians 3:16—“Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one
--- --- another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing
--- --- WITH GRACE IN YOUR HEARTS to the Lord.” (KJV)
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SONG: — — — “How Excellent Is Thy Name” ——————————— Keith Lancaster
SONG: — — — “King of Kings”
SONG: — — — “He is Jehovah”
SONG: — — — “Wonderful Merciful Savior”
READING:————————————— —— Howard Henderson, Jim Morris, Buck Dozier
PRAYER: ——————————————————————————————Paul Jankowski
WELCOME/LOVE FEAST ———————————————————————— Buck Dozier
SONG: — — — “In Moments Like These” (P&W #24)
SONG: — — — “He Has Made Me Glad”
SONG: — — — “Clap Your Hands”
SONG: — — — “Have You Seen Jesus My Lord?”
PRAYER: ——————————————————————————————— Mark Spears
SONG: — — — “Arms of Love”
SONG: — — — “Christ Above Me”
COMMUNION: ———————————————— Steve Smith, Sr. and Steve Smith, Jr.
SONG: — — — “In Your Presence” (*)
SONG: — — — “Jesus Loves Me” — — — — (Children dismissed to Canaan’s Land)
SONG: — — — “Holy Ground Medley” (P&W #19 & 20)
SERMON: “The Healing of America” ————————————————— C. Bruce White
SONG: — — — “Change My Heart, O God”
CONTRIBUTION: ——————————————————————————— Bruce White
SONG: — — — “Hear, O Israel”
SONG: — — — “One Thing I Ask” (*)
SHEPHERD’S PRAYER: —————————————————————————Chris Gingles
SONG: — — — “Now Unto the King Eternal” (**)
SONG: — — — “There Is No Condemnation” (**)
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REMINDER: Quoting from an independent, outside source, “The Diabolical System of Diaprax” (Christian Media – February 25, 2002): “Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — A TRANSLATIONAL DIALOGUE TO CONSENSUS [emphasis, dc].”
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Donnie Cruz

QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]

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ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 11-30-03
———————————————————————————————————————————
• WELCOME / CALL TO WORSHIP — — — — — — — — — — — — —Tommy Hoppes
• SONG: — — — “Lord I Lift Your Name on High” — ——————— Keith Lancaster
• SONG: — — — “Just a Little Talk with Jesus”
• SONG: — — — “It’s Alright”
• SONG: — — — “Lord, We Come Before Thee Now” #419
• PRAYER:————————————— —— — — — — — — — — — — — — Keith Hall
• SONG: — — — “Open Our Eyes, Lord”
• PRAYER: ———————————————————————————————Phil Coats
• SONG: — — — “He Knows My Name” — — — — — — — Kevin Dunnebacke
• SONG: — — — “I Worship You Almighty God” (*sheet in red notebook)
• SONG: — — — “There Is None Like You?”
• PRAYER: ————————————————————————————Tommy Hoppes
• SONG: — — — “Give Thanks with a Grateful Heart”
• RESPONSIVE READING: — — — — — — — — — — Worship Leader and Followers
• SONG: — — — “Thank You, Lord”
• SONG: — — — “Come to the Table”
• COMMUNION: ———————————————— — — — — —Mark and Seth Carver
• SONG: — — — “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” (#---)
• ———————— [not on program; sung by Singing Team during Communion]
• LOVE FEAST ——[Children dismissed to Canaan’s Land]
• SONG: — — — “A Common Love” (#842)
• SONG: — — — “We Declare That the Kingdom of God Is Here” (*)
• SERMON: —— “Discipline and Authority”————————————— C. Bruce White
• SONG: — — — “Spirit of the Loving God” (P&W #44)
• CONTRIBUTION: ——————————————————————————— Mike Hart
• SONG: — — — “Boundless Love” (P&W #35)
• SONG: — — — “Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord of Hosts” (P&W #40)
• SHEPHERD’S PRAYER: ———————————————————————Buck Dozier
• SONG: — — — “Christian Jubilee”
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I believe that the lengthy, well-choreographed musical worship program in the contemporary assembly was almost without rhythmic handclapping. There was a timid attempt to “Thank You, Lord” with clapping, but it died down near the end. Inwardly and personally, I was thanking the Lord for the noise of the clanging cymbal being absent. There was also no unintelligible sound coming from anywhere. There was the o-o-o-o-o, though, from Keith’s Praise Team while Kevin Dunnebacke rendered his special solo of “He Knows My Name.” [Please don’t consider that as questioning God’s omniscience … while Kevin was the only one singing it with everyone else listening to him.]

A friend of mine who usually attends the 8:00 assembly had an unpleasant surprise [perhaps, “disappointment” is the better word]. Of the eighteen of the mostly contemporary pieces sung by the choir [most of the time], this friend might have been able to sing a couple of songs—of course, they were hymns, at least in the hymnbook. He was more disappointed than ever when he finally realized that the very popular hymn “Holy, Holy, Holy” was not the same as “Holy, Holy, Holy Is the Lord of Hosts.”

There was some sense of more reverence than usual in this particular “contemporary” assembly. It may be partly attributed to clapping that almost was nil. Perhaps … partly due to the congregation being somewhat silent or not participating with the Praise Team carrying the load. [Pardon my seemingly nit-picky comments. Just trying to help those with major responsibilities in worship see some of the problems at hand.] The Praise Team should not claim sole ownership of the “Worship Center” (and whatever else that implies)—even though its members sincerely and honestly believe they are aiding congregational singing. In other words, let the singing RETURN to the congregation. Who knows? Just who knows the alienated brethren for this very reason might return and be reunited?
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ON THE RECORD: Combined 8:00 and Contemporary Attendance (Stats from Marcher)
*Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
———————————————————————————————————————————
AUG ______________1702__1759__1726__1742__1732
SEP ______________1782__1722__1629__1498
OCT ______________1681_______*2028__1643
NOV ______________1708__1664__1526__1627
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REMINDER: Quoting from an independent, outside source, “The Diabolical System of Diaprax” (Christian Media – February 25, 2002): “Bibles (such as the NIV) are being translated via a system known as “dynamic equivalency” which is built on the process of the Diaprax — A TRANSLATIONAL DIALOGUE TO CONSENSUS [emphasis, dc].”
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Donnie Cruz

Time and time again this past year I have heard of or seen such changes in various congregations of the Church of Christ. I personally think the overall theme of all these changes is "we" as churches of christ have to keep up with the world! The feminist movement has been able to intergate it's self with in many churches. Others have been able to put "song groups" such as the one there at Madison and Woodmont Hills. If we as believers don't take back these and other churches we will end as Churches of Christ and become Churches of the World. We have forgotten the "To speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent". We don't need to rewrite the Bible. Just believe it.

Dear Alan,

Thank you for sharing with us your concern. Needless to say, in Madison’s case, that visiting the Saddleback Community Church in California only to return home and attempt to implement the purpose-driven scheme for church growth—which did not work—is a very unfortunate situation. In the brotherhood, we now have prominent change agents operating within. We no longer have those great men of Restoration principles: Batsell Barrett Baxter, Thomas B. Warren, Guy N. Woods, G.K. Wallace.

Recovery from the upheaval has been very difficult. The change agents operating within are hard at work and are very determined to follow their course. I’m certain that the eldership is aware of what has been going on in the last several months. The elders have been having meetings and prayer meetings, strategizing and finding means and ways to resolve issues and seek solutions.

I have the strong feeling that other forms of leadership (outside of the eldership) are powerful forces that “get in the way.” Without belaboring my point, I would like to make a brief statement: At this time, I am not commenting on what those who are currently involved in various ministries might be learning differently concerning essential doctrines, such as baptism and the Holy Spirit and fellowshipping, etc. But I would like to say this: That the activities in worship assemblies, in my opinion, need to be under the oversight of the eldership, as well as other forms of “leadership” involved in various ministries. Letting them go about their merry ways will not alleviate or eliminate the problems. Something needs to be done differently—perhaps, a return to a more reverent atmosphere in the assembly and no performances.

Donnie Cruz

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QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]
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Phil Sanders, minister of the Concord Road congregation in Brentwood, Tennessee, lists 3 “objections to small group singing, solos and choirs during worship services” in his article, “Small Group Singing and Solos”:

• Small group singing and solos take the focus off of God and puts it on the performer(s).
• Small group singing and solos are exclusive rather than inclusive.
• Solos and small group singing asks the members of a church to worship through others.
———————————————————————————————————————————
A segment on “Small group singing and solos are exclusive rather than inclusive” is quoted below:
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[…One must ask why anyone would pursue unnecessarily a course of exclusiveness. In many cases those who support special singing are those who have good voices and want "showcase their talents." One may rightfully ask if the good singers were excluded from a program, how they might feel. Would they still feel that the worship is pleasing? Would they be hurt by being excluded? Would they feel unneeded? If one were putting together a choir, there are some Christians who would never be asked to join. The reason is because they aren't good singers. In small group singing and solos artistic concerns become more important than one's right to adore God. We must ask when has God ever considered musical skill as a criteria for his worshippers. Why should anyone who has that skill have the right to include or exclude anyone on the basis of that skill?
. . .
Choirs as a separate group from the congregation were not present among the earliest Christians. It was an innovation that led to special singers for the congregation. Because they sang more difficult songs, others ceased to sing. According to McClintock & Strong, (VI:758).

The appointment of singers as a distinct class of officers in the Church for their part of religious worship, and the consequent introduction of profane music into the church, marks another alteration in the psalmody of the Church. These innovations were first made in the 4th century; and though the people continued for a century or more to enjoy their ancient privilege of all singing together, it is conceivable that it gradually was forced to die, as a promiscuous assembly could not well unite in theatrical music which required in its performers a degree of skill, altogether superior to that which all the members of a congregation could be expected to possess. An artificial, theatrical style of music, having no affinity with the worship of God, soon began to take the place of those solemn airs which before had inspired the devotions of his people. The music of the theatre was transferred to the church, which accordingly became the scene of theatrical pomp and display rather than the house of prayer and praise, to inspire by its appropriate and solemn rites the spiritual worship of God.

McClintock and Strong further observe that until the sixth or seventh century the people were not entirely excluded from participating in the singing. They were allowed to sing in the choruses and in the responses. But "it soon came about that the many, instead of uniting their hearts and their voices in the songs of Zion, could only sit coldly by as spectators" (Ibid.).]
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Please read the complete article “Small Group Singing and Solos” under this thread:
“WORSHIP FOR SALE (90% OF ALL CHURCH CONFLICTS ON MUSICAL ISSUES)”
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Donnie Cruz

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QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]
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Quoting Phil Sanders, minister of the Concord Road congregation in Brentwood, Tennessee, in his article “Small Group Singing and Solos”:
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What about “Worship Teams”?
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[[[[[A worship team is a group of singers who lead the congregation in singing. [DC: Why? Why is it necessary to have additional song leaders in the assembly? Congregational singing at Madison was just great all the years when Nick Boone led singing. It was just as great during the early months that Keith Lancaster led singing—Reminder: that was prior to designating himself as the “WORSHIP LEADER.”] While there is a song leader of the team and congregation, the group of both men and women singers each lead the congregation in his or her voice part. [DC: Does the statement that “… women singers each lead the (Madison) congregation in … her voice part” suggest that these women are exercising their leadership roles in the presence of men members?] While they may not stand in front of the congregation as a choir would, they might sit on the front row. Each of them usually has his or her own microphone to amplify the voice part he or she sings. The purpose of worship teams is to enhance the worship and to encourage others to sing. [DC: Supposedly … that is the subtly announced purpose, right! In reality, needless to say, it results in musical worship performances!]

There are some advantages to worship teams. Each voice part is amplified so that the altos, for instance, may hear and sing their part correctly. The teaching capability in this matter is certainly advantageous. The sound of all parts takes on a richer tone quality, so that it is quite pleasing to the ear. [DC: Whose ear?] One might even suppose, because of the amplification, that there are more people present than the crowd appears to have. The amplified voices are much more harmonious than merely amplifying only the song leader.

On the other hand, like choirs there is the tendency with worship teams [many members of the congregation at Madison, dc] to sit and listen to the group sing rather than to sing along. The amplified voices occasionally [DC: usually in Madison] drown out the congregation much the way a piano or organ stifles singing. Another stifling aspect of this approach is that the team often sings new songs unfamiliar to the congregation. During these times the congregation becomes little more than spectators. While it is beneficial for the congregation to learn new songs, a regular practice of singing unfamiliar songs could make the team appear to be an exclusive and elitist group. The problems of the past come very much into play here. Will worship teams over time lead many in the church to quit fulfilling their obligation to edify one another in song? [DC: “over time” is now history—many members have “quit fulfilling their obligation to edify one another” since the Praise Team took over at Madison.] Are worship teams merely a step away from choirs? ]]]]]
———————————————————————————————————————————
Please read the complete article “Small Group Singing and Solos” under this thread:
“WORSHIP FOR SALE (90% OF ALL CHURCH CONFLICTS ON MUSICAL ISSUES)”
———————————————————————————————————————————

Donnie Cruz

Donnie,

Are you kidding me? Please, please, please... tell me you are kidding? Ok... you ARE kidding, aren't you? No? Yes?

---

I didn't mean to end up at this website. I was actually looking for something else when I stumbled across a page at this site (http://www.network54.com/Forum) and saw the little scrolling text box toward the top of the page. In that text box, I saw something that caught my eye. It said "From the Balcony" and that brought me to this page that I am now replying to.

You don't know me. I am not affiliated with your group. But, when I clicked on the title "From the Balcony" and read what you have posted, I was flabbergasted! In fact, I was blown away. I just had to do something I don't usually do - respond to a forum.

Do you mean to tell me that you actually attend these services and sit in the balcony and take notes of what they're doing??? You've GOT to be kidding! I just can't imagine that scene very clearly. Help me, were you just sitting there with a notebook or clipboard watching? What did you do during the prayers? During the songs?

You did so well informing HOW they worshipped. What a critique, wow! But, tell me... what was the Pastor's lesson about? Were people moved in their worship to God? Did anyone testify about God's working in their lives? If there was an Altar Call, did folks respond to God's invitation of love and forgiveness? It sounded like you were so busy watching HOW they worshipped, that you didn't seem to notice what the intent of their worship was! Or YOU for that matter! You were there worshipping God as well!

Donnie, have you ever read something called the 'Parable of the River'? Your "From the Balcony" reminds me so much of one of the characters (the 3rd brother) in that story. Here is an excerpt:

***

"The next day, they woke up to find their 3rd brother missing, so the 2 remaining ones set off to find him. The 3rd brother was found perched on a rock overlooking the hut of his elder brother. "What are you doing?" asked the remaining two. The third brother replied, "Look how terrible how elder brother has become! Look how sinful he is! He has disobeyed father, and now he chooses to turn his back on his brothers and the inevitable return of father! He chooses to live in this land that is not ours! He is evil! I must take down a record of all his evil and sins, and when father returns I will show it to him to prove how evil our brother has become!"

"But we have all disobeyed father by touching the river!" the remaining 2 brothers tried to reason. The 3rd brother would see no reason, so the 2 brothers left their fault-finding brother to judge over their hedonistic hut-building brother."

(Good read! If you wish to read the whole story, it can be found posted in various places all over the Internet. One location is: http://www.sermonillustrator.org/illustrator/sermon6/parable_of_the_river.htm)

***

I am just beside myself reading about your 'worship critique'! Donnie, please tell me where you worship. If this place - 'Madison Church of Christ' is doing it wrong, perhaps we should see how it's done 'right.' Or... perhaps there is someone sitting your balcony that I should talk to?

Who are you people???

If you would quit reading SERMONIC FODDER you wouldn't stumble around so much. Take a Look

http://www.piney.com/ChMinistry.html

You sound like someone who would applaud while they mug old widows! Well, Donnie saw them stealing the church house of widows by CUNNINGLY DECEIVING THEM: "We gonna make em think they on a train to Nashville but we goona DIVERT em to Knoxville." Isn't that presshus?

But they gonna cry buckets of tears but we gotta TEACH, TEACH TEACH because it's OUR time to take the property of the OLD GREY HAIRS. Maybe someboddy gotta pray for an early release.

You have stepped into a cow patty and blamed the CLEAN UP CREW. Shame, Shame, Shame: you sound like a preacher protecting the PREACHERHOOD at all costs. Learn to read the Bible and you will learn about Cain (from a musical note and OF that wicked one) and being a brother's keeper rather than a brothers killer.

Ken

Dear OutsideUp,

Am I kidding you? No, I am not kidding. Really, I am not kidding you.

So, you didn’t mean to end up at this website? I wonder what you were actually looking for, when you “stumbled across a page … and saw the little scrolling text box….” Were you searching for any of the following: network, forum, Church of Christ, Madison, the balcony?

So, “From the Balcony” really caught your attention? Well, I am glad that it served its purpose—it was designed as an attention-getter! But you said nothing of your first impression of “the balcony.” Were you thinking I was the lone ranger sitting in the balcony?

Well, it’s kind of boring to have to repeat myself every time someone brings up questions about me personally. But I’ll do this for your benefit. Instead of a narrative, let me just respond to your specific comments and questions:

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• Outsider: You don't know me. I am not affiliated with your group.
• Insider: No, I don’t know you. I can tell by your expressions that you’re not affiliated with us.
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• Outsider: Do you mean to tell me that you actually attend these services and sit in the balcony and take notes of what they're doing??? … I just can't imagine that scene very clearly. Help me, were you just sitting there with a notebook or clipboard watching? What did you do during the prayers? During the songs?
• Insider: Yes, I’m actually in the assembly to observe the Lord’s Supper (Communion) to commemorate the Lord’s suffering, crucifixion and death for my redemption. [BTW, have you heard of the Communion before?] I’m also in the assembly to learn more about God’s word. Yes, I sit in the balcony—it used to be crowded up there; now, there are a lot of empty pews. But I’m not alone and lonely up there. Speaking of learning God’s word—that’s the reason why I take notes. Yes, I take sermon notes. Is that a problem? Really, I would like to encourage a lot of people to do the same—it used to be that way, but I guess times change. So, now … have I so far changed your imagination of the scene to something clearer? When I take sermon notes, I do not use a notebook or clipboard. Instead, I use the blank spaces of the worship program or guide. Is this wrong? Also, I can’t watch what’s going on—my eyesight is poor. You asked what about during prayers? Well, you should come and watch me pray. During the songs? I’m careful about song content—if it’s scriptural and conveys reverence and true worship and if I know the hymn, I sing it. I don’t care for singy-clappy, feel-good Christian rock/rap songs or cheerleading songs.
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• Outsider: You did so well informing HOW they worshipped. What a critique, wow! But, tell me... what was the Pastor's lesson about? Were people moved in their worship to God? Did anyone testify about God's working in their lives? If there was an Altar Call, did folks respond to God's invitation of love and forgiveness? It sounded like you were so busy watching HOW they worshipped, that you didn't seem to notice what the intent of their worship was! Or YOU for that matter! You were there worshipping God as well!
• Insider: On HOW they worshipped—well, I get my information from the worship guide; you know … the list of songs, etc. Pastor’s lesson—well, that’s why I take very good sermon notes. People moved—well, how would I know that? Anyone testify—well, we don’t have testimonies … we believe actions speak louder than words. Altar call—it’s really touching when someone responds to become a child of God. Busy watching HOW they worshipped—well, I’ve already explained my poor vision. Notice the intent of their worship—well, I know and it’s very easy to tell when the emphasis is on MUSICAL WORSHIP, rather than God’s word. You were there worshipping God as well—you’re correct.
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• Outsider: Donnie, have you ever read something called the 'Parable of the River'? Your "From the Balcony" reminds me so much of one of the characters (the 3rd brother) in that story. Here is an excerpt: …
• Insider: Well, outsider, it is a good parable [I didn’t get a chance to check it out on the Internet]. Did Matthew or Luke or Paul write it?
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• Outsider: I am just beside myself reading about your 'worship critique'! Donnie, please tell me where you worship. If this place - 'Madison Church of Christ' is doing it wrong, perhaps we should see how it's done 'right.' Or... perhaps there is someone sitting your balcony that I should talk to?
• Insider: I decided to check up on which post you were responding to. I found out that you responded to: “CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 11-30-03” posted on December 1 2003, 4:34 AM. I thought, in the post, I was giving a lot of credit to the way worship was being conducted. Also, I simply related what a fellow member told me about his experience with unfamiliar songs. I also pointed out that less clapping really helped those annoyed and distracted by it. Was that wrong? ——— Outsider, I wonder if you were able to read how someone else responded to the same article I posted. Alan Baxter said it very well: “I personally think the overall theme of all these changes is ‘we’ as churches of Christ have to keep up with the world! … If we as believers don't take back these [Madison and Woodmont Hills] and other churches, we will end as churches of Christ and become Churches of the World. We have forgotten the ‘To speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.’ We don't need to rewrite the Bible. Just believe it.” ——— Telling “outsider” where Donnie worships—you already know that. On “perhaps we should see how it’s done right [at Madison]”—well, nobody listens to me, and perhaps the leaders will listen to an outsider like you. If there’s someone you should talk to in the balcony—well, come and visit.
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• Outsider: Who are you people???
• Insider: Since you addressed your post to me personally, were you asking me? Or, were you asking the forum staff?
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Regardless, thank you for letting us know your feelings. I hope I have responded to your questions and concerns.

Donnie Cruz

When I read web sites such as “concerned members,” my soul is troubled. I truly fear we are neglecting the “weightier matters of the law” Matt. 23:23. I truly believe Jesus would throw all of us out (conservative and liberal) with the money changers because we have lost focus of our first love. We spend so much of our time fighting each other instead of fighting the devil.

In the Old Testament, the “worship service” was much more defined, from the “preacher’s outfit” (the priestly garments in Ex. 28) down to the dimensions and layout of the “church building” (the tabernacle in Ex 25-26). I believe there is a reason why New Testament worship was much less defined…because like the Pharisees, we would elevate format over transformation. When we define what is appropriate and not appropriate in areas where scripture has nothing to say, are we any different that the Pharisees defining what is considered work on the Sabbath?

I am appalled at the attempts of some to make something such as applause after a baptism a scriptural issue. I think it is a classic example of preference. Those who favor the applause believe that it is simply an affirmation of the event that just happened. If we can applaud our child we he takes his first step walking then why not when he takes his first Christian steps as well? Those who oppose applause believe it to be not as reverent as saying “Amen” or nothing at all. If you allow this to be a divisive issue, then you are at fault! What is wrong with respecting the right of those who desire to clap and those who desire not to clap?

The argument stating “that since there is no example of the first century Christians applauding after baptism therefore we should not” simply does not hold water (pardon the pun). There is no first century example of using a church building, song books, flannel boards, singing with harmony, VBS, Lord’s Supper on Sunday night (which would be considered Monday by 1st Century churches), or making the Lord’s Supper into a pinch of cracker, and a thimble of grape juice, but these are done without any objection. We have no problem with exchanging “a holy kiss” (Rom 16:16) with a handshake, or wine with grape juice, or a Jewish synagogue with a church building, but because hand clapping is not been in our tradition it is unscriptural? Conservative churches tend to object to small groups format of meeting in homes for bible study. However, if we look to the Bible (Acts 12:12, 16:40) who is following the New Testament pattern?

So much of our practice is reactionary. We can’t have a “Revival.” we must call it a “Gospel Meeting.” We can’t raise our hands or we might be confused with the Charismatics even though it is mentioned in both New and Old Testaments. We afraid we might be considered Pentecostals if we admit the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Sometimes I wonder if we think that when it talks about a “peculiar people” in Titus and 1st Peter, it means peculiar in reference to others who claim to be Christians, not the world!

There has never been a time when the church has “gotten it right.” In the first century, Jesus was only pleased with one of the churches in Revelations. What about the supposed heyday of the churches of Christ, the fifties (or the thirties or you pick the time frame)? Even if in the fifties the forms of worship were exactly what God had intended, most churches would not allow a brother in Christ to worship with them simply because of the color of his skin. You tell me which would God be angrier about “hand clapping” or “racial hatred/bigotry.” Sometimes we do need to change!

Is it wrong to desire to sing songs that we have sung for 50 years? No! Is it wrong to sing songs that reflect the language and the style of the day? No! Is it wrong to let something as little as hand-clapping or song styles to allow you to judge another’s heart or foment hatred or cause division in the body of Christ? YES! Whenever a church splits, BOTH SIDES share in the blame. However after the split, I see the liberal side put more energy into preaching to the lost and helping the poor, and the conservative side with talking bad about the liberals on websites like this! Jesus came to give us the “abundant life.” (John 10:10) Isn’t there something more abundant to do than acting as a balcony critic at a church with which you disagree?

SECRET MANIPULATION

Let's not forget what the subject is. The subject is not clapping, dancing or any other thing you want to twist out of it.

The subject is M A N I P U L A T I O N. Cold calculated, premediated, subversion.

The question is; Do the change agents have a right to manipulate the church into a pleasure temple, against the desires of the older members?

Do they have God's blessing using tactics that are less than honest?

I don't think so.

There are those like yourself that hide behind annoymouse, while attacking someone by name. Your message to Donnie is; If you don't like what's going on why don't you leave?

My message to you is; Why did not the change agents follow their own advice? If they had, they would have left and not be here causing division in the church.

We say let them build their own building. We don't care if they serve tea, coffee or have turkey hunts. They can worship God any way they see fit.

Their contrived acts of subversion are admitted. They are not even ashamed. Like spoiled kids that will not take no for an answer.

We are shinning the light on those that use the dark secrecy of subversion in the church.

And will continue until it's lighted for all to see.

We have an obligation to warn others of their worldly techniques.

Hi my name is Evan Duncan and this is addressed just to who it says it is. I encourage you not to waste your time dealing with these people (Ken, Donnie, and David Rhoades) because it is just like running your head through a brick wall and the wall not moving. It's not worth it! I attend the Madison worship services and quit looking at this site because there is nothing uplifting and glorifying to God about it. God bless the two of you in your life.
Sincerely Evan Duncan

Thanks Evan. I won't be back. I will in pray for them.

OutsideUp

Dear Anonymous,

You’ve already posted this article (on October 24 2003, 6:04 PM).

Here’s what the detective has found:
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BEFORE: [There is no first century example of using a baptistery, song books, flannel boards, or the baptizer raising his hand when saying “I baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit” but these are done without any objection.]
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AFTER: [There is no first century example of using a church building, song books, flannel boards, singing with harmony, VBS, Lord’s Supper on Sunday night (which would be considered Monday by 1st Century churches), or making the Lord’s Supper into a pinch of cracker, and a thimble of grape juice, but these are done without any objection.]
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NEW: [So much of our practice is reactionary. We can’t have a “Revival.” we must call it a “Gospel Meeting.” We can’t raise our hands or we might be confused with the Charismatics even though it is mentioned in both New and Old Testaments. We afraid we might be considered Pentecostals if we admit the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Sometimes I wonder if we think that when it talks about a “peculiar people” in Titus and 1st Peter, it means peculiar in reference to others who claim to be Christians, not the world! ]
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BEFORE: [There has never been a time when the church has “gotten it right,” even in the supposed heyday of the churches of Christ, the fifties (or the thirties or you pick the time frame).]
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AFTER: [There has never been a time when the church has “gotten it right.” In the first century, Jesus was only pleased with one of the churches in Revelations. What about the supposed heyday of the churches of Christ, the fifties (or the thirties or you pick the time frame)?]
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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Well, I’ll try to address the new “charismatic imitation” issue later on. For now, I’m going to simply not waste my time re-writing my previous response. So, here it is:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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ANONYMOUS POSTED: [When I read web sites such as “concerned members,” my soul is troubled. I truly fear we are neglecting the “weightier matters of the law” Matt. 23:23. I truly believe Jesus would throw all of us out (conservative and liberal) with the money changers because we have lost focus of our first love. We spend so much of our time fighting each other instead of fighting the devil.]
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RESPONSE: As a point of reference, the above post is in response to the preceding article titled: IT’S ABOUT “APOSTOLIC” TRADITIONS—NOT "MAN-MADE" TRADITIONS. You brought up good points regarding the “weightier matters” stated in your reference to Matt. 23:23 which states—“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.” (KJV)

In your article, you mentioned a couple of elements in worship that have been discussed quite extensively on this forum. I gather from you—saying that when there is applause after a baptism, those who oppose such a reaction believe it to be not as reverent as an “Amen” or silence. Maybe… You also cited the selection of songs and “as little as hand-clapping” that may accompany the singing.

Jeremy [should have been: Anonymous, d.c.], you listed items and their uses in today’s worship, which weren’t used by the first century Christians—baptistery, song books, flannel boards, the church building. And you ask—what about the handshake instead of “a holy kiss” or grape juice instead of wine in the Communion, etc. Well, this list can go on and on. And your point is that these elements should not create controversy by today’s standard. It follows, then, that applause after baptism or handclapping while singing should not considered wrong. Good point. But let me explain.

I believe we should first consider whether or not an element or activity in worship is what would be considered an essential. Observing the Communion on the first day of the week is an essential—it is commanded and it was practiced by the 1st century Christians; it was also practiced past that period in history according to writings of the early church fathers. Teaching or preaching of God’s word is also an essential.

Non-essentials unspecified in the scriptures, therefore, should not create controversies—getting back to your point. A baptistery, the church building, power point, microphones, etc., are non-essentials in the sense that the Bible gives no specific directives regarding these matters. Neither should applause after baptism nor handclapping during singing. Remember that no one says either activity is wrong or sinful or to be condemned. (Side point: Has anyone realized that contemporary music discourages the use of hymnbooks?)

Having said all that—so, what is the problem? One problem has nothing to do with worship style or format, but with content. I believe that when MUSICAL WORSHIP programming is the main emphasis in the assembly, rather than “Word” content (teaching and preaching of God’s word), then, it is one colossal problem. Music was never the primary emphasis in the assembly of the early Christians, if at all. There’s not even a command to sing (oops—something to think about), although singing may occur in teaching and admonishing one another the “word of Christ” (which is probably another topic of discussion). But the point is—worship content, not format. Another problem with the non-essential is its effect upon other Christians. For example, I personally consider programmed, rhythmic handclapping as totally unnecessary and of no value. In fact, it is very annoying in worship … in as much as I’m so used to cheerleaders in sport events performing their normal routines. You and I would know instantly when joy or inner joy causes a person to clap spontaneously—it is not rhythmic at all. Do you see what I’m saying here? If such a worthless activity is an annoyance or a distraction to others in the assembly, why even do it? We certainly can “live without it” and we create a problem for others with it. In the case of applauding after baptism, I do not see it as wrong or sinful in and of itself. But it creates a problem to certain people in the assembly. In either case, we’ve managed for so long without either activity interrupting or disrupting or annoying someone in the assembly. So, why create a problem now?

What we need to take into consideration is not necessarily finding good reasons for doing such things because the Scripture does not condemn, but rather taking into consideration what preserves or maintains unity in the church in matters that are non-essential. Our greater problems in the church now—you would not believe—have more to do with doctrinal issues that relate to man’s salvation. For example, Max Lucado (one of the prominent change agents operating in the “brotherhood” today) now preaches and teaches that baptism unto the remission of sins is no longer necessary for salvation. (We’ll save that topic for some other time.) But my point is that if the non-essential element or activity causes a problem, then, why do it or continue doing it? If church leaders are not aware of these problems and are not careful in maintaining peace and unity in the body of believers, we’ll be witnessing history repeat itself—church schism.

Finally, I believe it is a very unfair assessment when this site is being looked at as soul-troubling, when it’s only trying to warn congregations against perversion of the truth and practices that create havoc and disunity in the church.

Donnie Cruz
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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REMARKS BY ANONYMOUS: So much of our practice is reactionary. We can’t have a “Revival.” we must call it a “Gospel Meeting.” We can’t raise our hands or we might be confused with the Charismatics even though it is mentioned in both New and Old Testaments. We afraid we might be considered Pentecostals if we admit the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Sometimes I wonder if we think that when it talks about a “peculiar people” in Titus and 1st Peter, it means peculiar in reference to others who claim to be Christians, not the world! ]
———————————————————————————————————————————

———————————————————————————————————————————
RESPONSE: No one says that we can’t have a “revival” or “survival” or whatever, but that we must call it a “gospel meeting.” This is nothing but an attempt to expand your list of grievances against the New Testament church. No one says that raising hands is sinful.

(By the way, perhaps, this passage on “lifting holy hands by men” needs to be carefully studied, if you are referring to I Timothy 2:[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. [9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel … [11] Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. [12] But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.)

I would say that lifting of hands, right or wrong, properly or improperly practiced, is definitely a “Charismatic” imitation. With respect to the holy Spirit of God or Christ dwelling in us, one needs to be careful about what this really means. If you’re expecting a separate “being” out there to be whispering in your ear or touching you or directly influencing you, then, I might begin to suspect. You’d better be directly influenced CONTINUOUSLY (non-stop); OTHERWISE, witnesses might start wondering if this “being” is not always with you so that you can do NO WRONG!!!!! Yes, definitely, this is another Pentecostal doctrinal imitation. My suggestion to you is: Please do not use this as a means to disrupt the unity of the church. Go somewhere else where you can satisfy your emotional needs.
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QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]
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Donnie Cruz

By way of explanation, the site you have run across is not unique to churches of Christ. As with most denominations, the churches of Christ are in a transitional period. While the majority of members are transitioning through a period of change, some hold to worship patterns (i.e. types of songs and methodologies) most firmly established in the 40's and 50's. These are the people responsible for this website.

You will notice that their discussions go beyond the congregations listed in the title and have progressed into a blanket indictment of anyone who holds to any differing beliefs. So to the founders of this group, no matter how sincere your beliefs, if you do not agree with them then you have "stolen the churches" of the "widows."

Fortunately, the mentality reflected in this group represents an extreme minority of those who would consider themselves members of the church of Christ. You are correct in your observations, although it will get you no where within this site, that certain members have given up worship of our Creator in exchange for a role as self appointed monitors of the worship of others. While is is very self-gratifying to state that you assemble in the balcony to partake of the Lord's Supper and to sing the songs which you do not find offensive, it is another thing altogether to assume the responsibility of being the "Clark Kent" of the brotherhood to publish how others choose to worship. Just as Donnie will not be able to convince anyone that his "from the balcony" reports are representative of proper worship to our Lord, no one else will be able to convince him that such is wrong.

The only suggestion that I have is that you should move on in your service to the Lord. You will change no minds here. You will notice that there are no discussions that occur here, only postings by the few men who agree with themselves and some brief exchange with the few, such as you, who stumble across the site while doing research. There are also those, much like myself, who get some sort of sordid interest in reading the postings that go on here.

God's blessings to you!

Tom

Tom repeats the old mantra of the CHANGE AGENTS. Churches of Christ are failing because they are evil. Tom-Tom you have beaten that one to death.

Last week I ran a teaching add--almost half--page to put the lie to the claim that churches of Christ are EVIL and brother-murderers because they became SECTARIAN by refusing to PLAY INSTRUMENTS which produces "body worship" (look that up on the Internet and you will get the universal MARK of religious musicians). No one could be that stupid so I presume that they ARE that evil.

All I did was post the LYING THESIS which the church was supposed to hear the next week about our HERITAGE or our OLD TRADITIONALISM. Giving up on the Biblical illiteracy, I noted that the Apostolic Constitutions rewritten from the Didasclla (earler) in about 205, by people who called themselves THE CHURCH OF CHRIST, refused to fellowship any professional performers such as singers and instrumentalists and lumped them with evil people. The Greek language allows NO OTHER CONCLUSION but to call them sorcerers and PARASITES in a religious sense.

Then, limited by space, I noted that Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians and Baptists repudiated instrumental music in the beginning. Protestants just before the DISCIPLES (METHODISTS) or Christian churches added instruments.

Northern churches with FILLED CARPET BAGS or from selling PAPER SHOES attempted the same Lucado- Shelly hostile takeover of southern churches. Undoubtedly it is a new WPA for surplus Phds manufactured post WWII. This is the fulfillment of the God-condemned MINISTRY SYSTEM or pyramidal or Tower of Babel LOADING of the backs of WIDOWS with men who have no JOB-NICHE in the honest world of WORK or STARVE. They also steal from honest preachers who know that church is SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible because members are called DISCIPLES and not STAFF-worshipers.

Now, Tom-Tom (as in ALL religious music which is the child of Voodoo), the Christian Chronicle which has been the OFFICIAL ORGAN of the evil professors who don't tell the truth because they KNOW that fools love to be fooled (at a price too high) now CONFESSES that only 5 out of 13,000 congregations have added instruments and then only in THIRD SERVICES as they officially call them. Circe (church), the holy whore feeds her disciples with a form of May Apple root administered with MUSIC (sorcery, pharmakea), then feeds them on DUNG PATTY CAKE and makes them BELIEVE that it is GOOD, GOOD, GOOD. They can NO LONGER see or hear the Word.

This has happened only when very CHARIMATIC (ambivalent) preachers who are really Baptists or trained by Christian Church Universities (one of them, I believe in eastern New Mexico) decide that postmodernism gives them permission to INFILTRATE, DIVERT, LIE, CHEAT AND STEAL THE CHURCH HOUSES OF WEEPING WIDOWS."

The SAME LIE claims a INCREDIBLE SHRINKING CHURCH OF CHRIST. That, TOO, is a deliberate lie to try to PANIC churches of Christ and DISSOCIATE them into SCHIZOPHRENIA so that they can, as defined in Machiavelli and Mein Kampf, emotionally CRIPPLE people so that they can slide in the JUDAS SICARRI daggar without having to see their face.

The fact is that churches of Christ have been diverted by the SOLOMONS of the world building mega-temples to invite the BANDITOS in to steal the gold. That is true only of a few URBAN churches able to STEAL LAMBS by, as they learned at Promise Keepers 'Breaking down the walls' to let the WOLVES in who will EAT ALIVE the evil people who have IT IN THEIR GENES from their father to lie by SPEAKING ON THEIR OWN.

At the same time, churches in the rurals or subs are doing very well, thank you. The SHRINK in many churches is the EXIT of people who SWARMED churches of Christ with the premeditated, Satanic goal of TAKING CAPTIVE all churches of Christ. They tire of that old BIBLE pretty soon and that is God's PUNISHMENT on people who do not love the WORDS of God. MOST elders are "awake with their clothes with them" and will not be LIED, CHEATED AND STOLEN out of that which they have PLEDGED to protect from the Wolves.

The fact is that the younger generation are MUCH MORE CONSERVATIVE perhaps from learning infidelity, drunkeness, peddling booze by elders and deacons, and just CATCHING ON to the fact that their misleaders have had the same SCHIZOPHRENIA jerked into their little brains so that they look, for all the world, just like people in the gay bars trying to get drunk at the Vineyard (aka New Wineskins, HOLY TAVERN.)

So, your kiddies have already begun to SPEW YOU OUT OF THEIR MOUTHS as they return to the churches which are conservative and WORD ORIENTED as a school rather than a theater for holy entertainment.

Tom sounds like someone in The Holy electric chair screaming, SEE, I told you you were loosers for restricting lying, cheating, stealing and PERFORMING obscene rituals (barely concealed) while pretending to STAND IN THE HOLY PLACE. Tom needs to OUT himself and defend HIS false religion.

Give it up, Tom, CHRISTIANS will not be spooked by people so cowardly that they will, at night, BREAK IN AND STEAL. I am always amazed at tiny Bull Snakes who will ATTACK you and STRIKE at you when in REALITY they are about 6 inches long: they are too ethical to sneak up on you.

Seeing his failure, Max Lucado has turned Oak Hills into the MOTHER CHURCH. They plan to build CAMPUSSES reporting to the MOTHER. They have hired a DISCIPLING or SHEPHERDING MINISTER. It is from PROMISE KEEPERS wich is from CROSSROADS or the INTERNATIONAL CHURCH OF CHRIST. They want to build an FBI file on you by getting titillated by having you discuss your SEXUAL and FINANCIAL secrets. The scheme is already outed, they try to sneak WIND BLOWERS like Lynn Anderson into conservative churches to TAKE THEM CAPTIVE. Much easier than BUYING YOUR OWN.

Rubel Shelly has failed in Nashville so taking Lipscomb captive seems to be working. I say, good riddance, Jesus FIRED the Doctors of the Law because they TAKE AWAY THE KEY TO KNOWLEDGE. Future preachers will learn from Doctor Jesus and not get to be experts in DIVINITY. Can you believe it?

Ken, seeing the WORM (maggots) TURN, the Babbylon harlot rot and be consumed with his/her HARPS and HARPISTS--burried alive.

Wow, I must say that I am amazed at the hatred and name calling that Donnie and Ken were able to muster in response to my post. Perhaps that type of mentality is the reason more and more congregations are wanting to distance themselves from the perceived prejudice that lies within some with regards to the name "church of Christ." (Not the institution ordained by God and described in the Bible, but what is viewed by many as the "denomination" of the church of Christ.) For that,people like Donnie and Ken only have themselves to thank.

I am not sure what questions you want answered about myself, but from your venemous posts I can answer as follows:
1. No, I am not a preacher, nor have I ever been. I am an attorney with a great wife and three wonderful children. (sorry Ken)
2. I had never logged onto Ibelieve.com until it was mentioned by Ken and I have never posted any messages there. (wrong again, Ken)
3 I have been a Christian since the age of 8 and have been identified with churches of Christ all of my life. (three strikes, Ken) I do have cousins and friends who are associated with the Baptist church and have visited on rare occasion, but am turned off by the instruments and really do not find it appealing. However, you would have to have your head buried in the sand not to see what is happening among the Baptists, Prebyterians, and other churches and be unable to draw comparisons to what is going on in the churces of Christ.

Well, I guess that answers most of the incorrect assumptions made in the posts by Ken and Donnie. Hopefully, the name calling was a mistake and it will not continue in any responses to my post.

Hope everyone has a safe and happy holiday season!

Tom

Tom how can you being trained accuse truth tellers of being haters? I can compare what Shelly mistells about Scripture without even raising a drop of sweat. That is called MASCULINE dialog which the DISCIPLES did in TROAS when they SYNAGOGUED to hear Paul PREACH which means DIALOG or COMMUNE.

I won't make any effort to MOVE INTO your house and make you pay me for being a surrogate husband and father.

Anyway, I was just Hegeling you. Thanks for the info.

I agree that you should exit the FORUM if you are not willing to WRESTLE with the Word of God.

Ken

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
INTRODUCING TOM: … but this is difficult to do at the moment, since he has not formally given us his true identity. If what he is proclaiming is the gospel of Christ or the truth, he should have no fear of reprisal. I would venture to say that he is a preacher or a “Bible” class teacher—an avowed CHANGE AGENT operating in the brotherhood of churches of Christ. Until he confesses otherwise, let the assumptions stand. Let’s proceed:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM’ EXPLANATION: By way of explanation, the site you have run across is not unique to churches of Christ. As with most denominations, the churches of Christ are in a transitional period.
——————————————————————————————————————————
• OUR CONCERN: Credibility of your statement is in question—you failed to list even just a couple of websites of denominational bodies in transition, experiencing problems with transition. At the same time and more significantly, you are promoting the same message of the Change Movement—that the church of Christ is a denomination or is just another denomination. What a way to think of the body of Christ in that despicable manner!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM: While the majority of members are transitioning through a period of change, some hold to worship patterns (i.e. types of songs and methodologies) most firmly established in the 40's and 50's. These are the people responsible for this website.
——————————————————————————————————————————
• OUR CONCERN: Admittedly, the subversive mission of the Change Movement is well organized, i.e., by beginning the “diversion-perversion-subversion” process with large, well-established congregations. So, Richland Hills [still claiming to be] Church of Christ has digressed. So, Oak Hills [which is really a Community] Church has digressed. But then, it’s no surprise! Rick Atchley and Max Lucado, of their respective congregations, are prominent change agents themselves—with Rick Warren’s “purpose-driven” methodologies of subversion and acquisition foremost in their minds. (Side note from an e-mail sent to me stating: [Max Lucado is "wrapped up" in Max Lucado! He's a "legend in his own mind!" HA! The only thing Max is concerned about is losing his "position and popularity."]) In regard to the Madison Church of Christ … well, Tom, there may be some things you know that I don’t know. So, I’m going to let your heart speak for Madison.

So, these and some other congregations of size have been subverted and digressed. But they DO NOT COMPRISE “the majority of members … transitioning through a period of change,” as you claim. It is the intended DECEPTION on the part of the change agents to make “worship patterns (i.e. types of songs and methodologies) most firmly established in the 40's and 50's” as the issue. If it isn’t about worship, then, the change agents are quick to say that it’s about the “love” factor that is lacking or missing in the church. Then, it is the lack of fellowship with the denominational world.

The truth of the matter is that underneath these deceptive maneuvers (as in … away with traditional worship where there is no love and no fellowship) is the HIDDEN AGENDA of TEACHING FALSE DOCTRINES BORROWED FROM BAPTIST, PENTECOSTAL AND OTHER DENOMINATIONAL BODIES. Why? For the purpose of GROWING THE CHURCH NUMERICALLY at the expense of: (1) what the Holy Scripture truly teaches as the pure, unadulterated gospel of Christ needed to bring souls to Him; and (2) what it truly teaches in how the church members, the body of believers and followers of Christ, are to edify and have fellowship with each other.

As you said that “these are the people responsible for this website,” is correct as we have the determination to battle the CHANGE AGENTS who are also determined to SUBVERT THE CHURCH OF CHRIST. Yes, www.concernedmembers.com is in the minority, but we are here to bring the message to CONGREGATIONS WHO HAVE NOT BEEN SUBVERTED YET—these are the majority!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM: You will notice that their discussions go beyond the congregations listed in the title and have progressed into a blanket indictment of anyone who holds to any differing beliefs. So to the founders of this group, no matter how sincere your beliefs, if you do not agree with them then you have "stolen the churches" of the "widows."
——————————————————————————————————————————
• OUR CONCERN: I honestly believe, Tom, that with your intelligence, you should be able to determine that the SUBVERSIVE scheme of the CHANGE AGENTS is ALL THE SAME for the entire brotherhood, with minor adjustments to varying congregational idiosyncrasies. Likewise and in return, www.concernedmembers.com has THE SAME MESSAGE TO THE SUBVERTERS that they seek refuge somewhere else and leave the church of Christ alone. www.concernedmembers.com has also the same WARNING BEING SENT TO ALL VICTIMS AND PROSPECTIVE VICTIMS OF THE SUBVERTERS. Now, to Tom’s famous words: “no matter how sincere your beliefs.” There’s much to be said about this, Tom, but let me just say this briefly [and you will understand it]—that Muslims, Buddhists, Roman Catholics, Mormons, and many others are undoubtedly just as sincere as you are. Is this making sense? My suggestion to the change agents is for them to leave the church of Christ alone. If change agents are very interested in making churches grow numerically, THEY SHOULD DO THEIR RECRUITING WITHIN THESE OTHER SINCERE RELIGIOUS GROUPS AND THEY SHOULD BE FELLOWSHIPPING WITH THEM … rather than “stealing the churches of the widows!”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM: Fortunately, the mentality reflected in this group represents an extreme minority of those who would consider themselves members of the church of Christ.
——————————————————————————————————————————
• OUR CONCERN: It is not … our concern. That the conservative congregations are the “extreme minority” is what Tom would like to think. His perception of the majority is limited to what he sees in a subverted LARGE congregation—definitely NOT REPRESENTATIVE of the brotherhood.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM’S ADVICE TO FELLOW DIGRESSORS: You are correct in your observations, although it will get you no where within this site, that certain members have given up worship of our Creator in exchange for a role as self appointed monitors of the worship of others. While is is very self-gratifying to state that you assemble in the balcony to partake of the Lord's Supper and to sing the songs which you do not find offensive, it is another thing altogether to assume the responsibility of being the "Clark Kent" of the brotherhood to publish how others choose to worship. Just as Donnie will not be able to convince anyone that his "from the balcony" reports are representative of proper worship to our Lord, no one else will be able to convince him that such is wrong.
——————————————————————————————————————————
• CONCERN: Tom, you know better than to play God in making that judgment of Donnie’s personal worship. After all, worship is an individual matter between the believer and God at any time and place, although worship in a public setting can occur. In my humble opinion, I am in the assembly for those key elements in regard to the gathering of the saints. If you are in the assembly to enjoy and be entertained by the WELL CHOREOGRAPHED OR PROGRAMMED MUSICAL WORSHIP—then your intent or motive is in question because the Scripture does not issue the slightest hint or command that MUSICAL WORSHIP is the purpose of the gathering of the saints, much less programming musical worship to comprise 70% of the entire period devoted to this activity. No, Donnie has no interest in monitoring the worship of others. I’ve mentioned numerous times already that I take sermon notes, and everything else that’s reported here is just replicated from the Madison Marcher or from the worship guide. Do you understand what I am saying here? No, you don’t … because you are not listening. I believe the final answer to this monitoring issue is for someone to videotape the entire worship program. For all you know, watching the program on tape should make it all really credible to the incredulous.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
• TOM: The only suggestion that I have is that you should move on in your service to the Lord. You will change no minds here. You will notice that there are no discussions that occur here, only postings by the few men who agree with themselves and some brief exchange with the few, such as you, who stumble across the site while doing research. There are also those, much like myself, who get some sort of sordid interest in reading the postings that go on here.
——————————————————————————————————————————
• CONCERN: The real suggestion to preserve the unity in the Lord’s church is for the CHANGE AGENTS to seek their victims somewhere else—don’t burden the church with your unscriptural imitated doctrines and “transform” the church into a trans-Baptist or a trans-Charismatic Church. Your subtle Saddleback scheme for church growth is deceptive, subversive and perverse and it doesn’t have God’s permission and blessing. No discussions that occur here—hmmm, what a blessing not to be distracted in warning the churches who have not yet been victimized! Sordid interest in reading the postings that go on here, did you say? Careful, this website is M-rated—it is only for the spiritually mature.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

——————————————————————————————————————————
UNDERNEATH the deceptive scheme of the new indoctrination in victimized churches lies the MAGNIFIED issue of worship. Here’s quoting Phil Sanders:
——————————————————————————————————————————
[[[[["What is done in entertainment settings, though it be a gathering of Christians, should not be held as a pattern for what is to be done on the Lord's day. Distinguishing between such settings, as the church has done for many years, keeps the boundaries of entertainment and worship definitive. The recent blurring of these distinctions, coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”]]]]]
——————————————————————————————————————————

Donnie Cruz

[Max Lucado is "wrapped up" in Max Lucado! He's a "legend in his own mind!" HA! The only thing Max is concerned about is losing his "position and popularity."])

To that, (for reading Max Lucado's titles but NOT his books which he confesses is his congealed version of PUBLISHED BOOKS. Hmmm. What do we call that?), I would like to comment on:

"In the Grip of His Grace"

Which all the wimpies love to quote: Someone even discovered GRACE and made it center on "Unlimited forgiveness for our doctrine which the Bible says is wrong."

Here is what the SMALL BAND OF SELF-VALIDATORS should name their little books endorsed by others of the CIRCLE to pump up their "scholarship":"

"In the Grip of His GRUDGE."

Most of these people have been totally repudiated by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY and been effectively DISFELLOWSHIPPED around Nashville and the world. Their only OUT is to build another DENOMINATION because their FIELDS READY FOR HARVESTING THE PITTANCE OF WIDOWS IS growing VERY small unless they sign on with the Baptists. Ooops! No, the Baptists are too Bible directed to hire those who are so TREACHEROUS and disloyal. The will however USE others.

IBELIEVE that Tom is the Baptist over at IBelieve.Not

Churches of Christ are holding their own even though the COLLEGES they bought have committed TREASON have planned to TRAIN and send out Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators to CHANGE the "traditional church of Christ" into a Baptist church which is well recognized as a DISTINCTLY AMERICAN form of GNOSTICISM with NO connection to the historical church. They utterly CUT OFF their connection to the Bible and ALL of the historical church when they adopted Zwingli's Believer's Baptism which is the old Pagan Baptism.

I say Tom is a Baptist because history knows of NO church of Christ preacher who would deliberately INFILTRATE and DIVERT a Baptist church because STEALING is better to them than BUYING. That's what has happened in Hohenwald where the women behind every THRONE have conspired with self-appointed "leaders" to take the church for the Baptists and the Church of God and ANYBUDDY.

I think that Tom is aroused enough to know that he is defending LYING, CHEATING, PAGANIZING and stealing the church house of widows. Tom hates Concerned Members because false preachers hate anyone who knows more than they do and sells it FREE OF CHARGE. Rather than equipping the saints for the ministry they fire the deacons and HIRE a professional STAFF INFECTION and just cannot TOLERATE anyone saying "the Bible says."

Ken

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BY KEN: Most of these people [change agents] have been totally repudiated by the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY and been effectively DISFELLOWSHIPPED around Nashville and the world. Their only OUT is to build another DENOMINATION because their FIELDS READY FOR HARVESTING THE PITTANCE OF WIDOWS IS growing VERY small unless they sign on with the Baptists. Ooops! No, the Baptists are too Bible directed to hire those who are so TREACHEROUS and disloyal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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It is not too late to pray for struggling congregations, some of which have been identified as facing subversion problems—which are being effected by the trans-Baptist, trans-Charismatic/Pentecostal, trans-Community change agents operating in the brotherhood:

--- West End Church of Christ, Nashville, TN
--- Fourth Avenue Church of Christ, Franklin, TN
--- Farragut Church of Christ, Knoxville, TN
--- Bammel Church of Christ, Houston, TX
--- Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX
--- Southside Church of Christ, Ft. Worth, TX
--- and others
——————————————————————————————————————————

Donnie Cruz

———————————————————————————————————————————
QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]
———————————————————————————————————————————

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 12-7-03
(This is a late report, but as usual please note what the emphasis is in this type of assembly.
If you do not recognize what the emphasis is by now, allow me to list only the songs....
Then, try to envision the purpose of the gathering of the saints in the first century.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

———————————————————————————————————————————
• SONG: — — — “God Has Smiled on Me” — —————————— Keith Lancaster
• SONG: — — — “Here I Am to Worship”
• SONG: — — — “Come Let Us Worship and Bow Down”
• SONG: — — — “Prince of Peace”
• SONG: — — — “Light the Fire”
• SONG: — — — “Shine, Jesus, Shine”
• SONG: — — — “Let Us Worship”
• SONG: — — — “Ain’t No Rock”
• SONG: — — — “Jesus, Name Above All Names”
• SONG: — — — “There’s Something about That Name”
• SONG: — — — “Sing Hallelujah to the Lord” (#886)
• SONG: — — — “Into My Heart”
• SONG: — — — “Rejoice in the Lord Always” (#875)
• SONG: — — — “Worship the Lord with Gladness”
• SERMON: —— “Saved by Grace”————————————— —— C. Bruce White
• SONG: — — — “Refiner’s Fire”
• SONG: — — — “Freely, Freely” (#352)
• SONG: — — — “Don’t Be Afraid”
• SONG: — — — “When We All Get to Heaven” (#756)
———————————————————————————————————————————
Keith Lancaster had the flu; Kevin Dunnebacke, with Stephen Vail’s assistance, led the musical—both of whom are wonderful singers. I do not recall Kevin doing a solo this day, but certainly he enjoys his solo performances.

Did you count the number of songs? Alright, alright … I know what you’re thinking the moment I mention the number of songs. Do you recall when we used to sing only about 4 songs or 5 at the most and listen to what seemed like a two-hour sermon? Alright … you detest going back to “traditions.” Look at the titles of these songs! Alright … but you can’t judge the content of a book by its cover. It’s so nice to listen to those “unintelligible sounds.” Alright … I know, but I can’t decide when to make the distinction between the intent to imitate the sounds of musical instruments and speaking in tongues.

How can we not mention handclapping? Alright … but there’s always a group of young people, sitting behind Dr. White and other leaders, who are ever prepared to perform their rehearsed joy of rhythmic handclapping and cheerleading. Alright … they’re young and they have no consideration for the interference and annoyance they cause.

I simply do not understand the necessity of loud, rhythmic handclapping in “Let Us Worship,” in which case one would normally associate “reverence” and “humility” in the mention of the name of “our Father in heaven” in worship. Is it the beat of the song—4/4 time signature? Is it the repetitive “worship the Father” or “we will glorify” expressions in the song? I have carefully studied the words to this song:

Verse 1: Let us worship the Father, worship the Father, worship the Father of Glory!
———— Let us worship the Father, worship the Father, worship the Father of love!
———— And we will glorify we will glorify the Lord;
———— And we will glorify we will glorify the Lord!

Verse 2: Sing your praise to the Father, praise to the Father, praise to the Father of Glory!
Verse 3: Lift your hands to the Father, hands to the Father, hands to the Father of Glory!

The sermon on 12.7.03: “Saved by Grace” by Bruce White! Why was this included in the list of songs above? I’ll give you a little hint: a lesson from Rubel Shelly’s “Grace Centered Magazine.” Let’s talk about this at some other time!

———————————————————————————————————————————
ON THE RECORD: Combined 8:00 and Contemporary Attendance (Stats from Marcher)
*Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
———————————————————————————————————————————
AUG ______________1702__1759__1726__1742__1732
SEP ______________1782__1722__1629__1498
OCT ______________1681_______*2028__1643
NOV ______________1708__1664__1526__1637__1596
DEC ______________1554
———————————————————————————————————————————

———————————————————————————————————————————
RE: THE CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM ON SUNDAY—12.14.2003
It is the usual worship content (i.e., music); the sermon is on “The Sins of Others.”
One announcement at the bottom of the contemporary worship guide (back page):
=================================================
[[[[[“Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months
to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!]]]]]
=================================================


———————————————————————————————————————————
REMINDER: Quoting Phil Sanders: “Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). … The recent blurrings of these distinctions [between entertainment and worship], coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”
———————————————————————————————————————————

Donnie Cruz

QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]

———————————————————————————————————————————
ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 12-21-03
———————————————————————————————————————————
• SONG: — — — “Sing Amen” — ——————————————— Kevin Dunnebacke
• SONG: — — — “Listen to Our Hearts”
• PRAYER:————————————— —— — — — — — — — — — — — — Phil Coats
• WELCOME / LOVE FEAST
• SONG: — — — “Christian Jubilee”
• SONG: — — — “We Will Stand” (*Sheet music in red notebook)
• PRAYER:————————————— —— — — — — — — — — — — — — Pat Burch
• SONG: — — — “We Trust in the Name” (*)
• SONG: — — — “Silent Night” #577
• SONG: — — — “O Come, All Ye Faithful” #464
• COMMUNION: ———————————————— — — — — ——————Milton Jones
• SONG: — — — “One Thing I Ask” (*)
• SONG: — — — “Jesus Loves the Little Children #809
• SONG: — — — “Joy to the World” #376
• SERMON: —— “Prince of Peace”————————————— ———— C. Bruce White
• SONG: — — — “My Only Hope Is You” (*)
• CONTRIBUTION: ——————————————————————————— Jeff Sweet
• SONG: — — — “Spirit of the Living God”
• SHEPHERD’S PRAYER: ————————————————————————Phil Coats
• SONG: — — — “Hallowed Be Thy Name” (*)


———————————————————————————————————————————
The musical worship program on this Sunday was less choreographed. There was also less rhythmic/programmed handclapping during singing—which translates to less annoyance and “turbulence.”

Here are a few suggestions to make “musical worship” less musical and more Word-oriented:

• This is a kind reminder to those in leadership that the assembly of the saints is really a “school of the Bible” meaning that it is “Word” centered, as it was in apostolic New Testament times—preaching and teaching of God’s word was the main focus, as well as commemorating the suffering and death of Christ for our sins. The epistle to the Colossians states: “Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.” Singing is infrequently mentioned in the New Testament, as you are aware. In this passage, the key element is the word of Christ dwelling in us. The teaching and admonishing are the key tasks when there is “togetherness” (as implied in the “one another” phraseology). Since it is apparent that these key tasks can be accomplished verbally (by speaking), this passage suggests that singing is also an avenue by which this can be accomplished. Singing is not even a command (as in the saints “must sing at every gathering”), but it can occur. And it certainly can occur as frequently as every time there is a gathering. In this gathering situation, however, “MUSIC” or musical programming to excellence should not be the motive or purpose for the gathering. Is it wrong to sing all praises? No, but it does not have to be all praises. And it is not any better when the selection of praise songs is carelessly made to satisfy the emotions and feelings of a limited group of people and to the exclusion of others.

• I would urge you, brother Kevin, to discourage solo performances in the midst of what should be congregational singing. [Everyone knows that you are naturally gifted by God with your singing voice. So, please do take this personally.] In our current situation, you are already on stage, which would make it rather easy for you to do your number. The temptation is there, but please be a little more sensitive to those people who are offended by being “sung to.” The simpler the song that everyone can participate in, the better it is; otherwise, we might as well sing “Ave Maria” that is probably more familiar to many in the congregation than your solo rendering

• With your song leadership, please allow the congregation to recognize that certain songs ought to be sung with all the reverence that can be mustered. The “learned upbeat” song may not necessarily have to be such, especially when Jehovah or the name of the Father or “holy, holy, holy” or “hallowed be” is the content of the song. I do not see any redeeming value in very loud rhythmic clapping to accompany the singing of “Hallowed Be Thy Name.”

• I believe that are many people being offended by the o-o-o-o-o and other unintelligible sounds made by your fellow song leaders (including women on the praise team) that perhaps are intended to simulate sounds of certain instruments. “Unintelligible” … because whatever those “words” are cannot be found in the dictionary of the English language.

• Just one more suggestion in this post: Please don’t feel awkward singing “Christmassy” hymns at others times in the year. It’s appropriate to sing, “Joy to the world for the Savior reigns” or “O come, all ye faithful, let us adore Him” in February or in September.

• My last suggestion for you as one who leads singing wonderfully is taking into consideration the use of “The Paperless Hymnal.” This allows projection of the lyrics and music notes onto the screen. There are 500 hymns and new songs in 4 volumes. We need some acceptable balance in the selection between great hymns of the past and the singy-clappy songs of the post-modern era. Surely, the church can afford a one-time charge of $500.00 for “UNITY’S SAKE”—everyone knows what this means. The address is:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/James_Tackett/multimed.htm

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ON THE RECORD: Combined 8:00 and Contemporary Attendance (Statistics taken from the Marcher)
*Sunday School Drive on October 19, 2003
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AUG ______________1702__1759__1726__1742__1732
SEP ______________ 1782__1722__1629__1498
OCT ______________1681_______*2028__1643
NOV _____________ 1708__1664__1526__1637__1596
DEC ______________1554__1534
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ON THE RECORD: Announcement in the Marcher, December 17, 2003
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Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!
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QUOTE FROM PHIL SANDERS: “Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. … In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men.”
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Donnie Cruz

QUOTED FROM AN E-MAIL: [[[[[… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic "worship services." I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...]]]]]

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ON THE RECORD: CONTEMPORARY MUSICAL WORSHIP PROGRAM, SUNDAY, 12-28-03
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In my humble opinion, in this assembly period, there was so much less or none of the “singly-clappy” songs that often give the impression of bragging self-me-mine to God [e.g., “Lord, look at me … I love you … I worship you … I am entertained … I am enjoying it.”]. I do not have the sheet music for “Ain’t No Rock … ain’t no tree … ain’t no bird …”; so, I cannot comment on the message of the song.
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One hymn with so much scriptural meaning: WERE YOU THERE? (Reference—Mark 15)

Were you there when they crucified my Lord? … Were you there?
Were you there when they crucified my Lord? … Were you there?
Oh, sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble.
Were you there when they crucified my Lord? … Were you there?

2. Were you there when they nailed Him to the tree? … Were you there?
3. Were you there when they laid Him in the tomb? … Were you there?
4. Were you there when He rose up from the dead? … Were you there?
5. I’ll be there when the Savior calls my name. I’ll be there.
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MY HOPE IS BUILT ON NOTHING LESS (References—John 14:6; I Cor. 3:11)

1. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness;
1. I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus’ name.
2. When darkness veils His lovely face, I rest on His unchanging grace;
2. In every high and stormy gale, my anchor holds within the veil.
3. His oath, His covenant, His blood, support me in the whelming flood;
3. When all around my soul gives way, He then in all my hope and stay.
4. When He shall come with trumpet sound, O may I then in Him be found,
4. Dressed in His righteousness along, faultless to stand before His throne.

On Christ, the Solid Rock, I stand; all other ground is sinking sand…
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LEANING ON THE EVERLASTING ARMS (Reference—Deut. 33:27)
“The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.”

1. What a fellowship, what a joy divine, leaning on the everlasting arms;
1. What a blessedness, what a peace is mine, leaning on the everlasting arms.
2. O how sweet to walk in this pilgrim way, leaning on the everlasting arms;
2. O how bright the path grows from day to day, leaning on the everlasting arms.
3. What have I to dread, what have I to fear, leaning on the everlasting arms?
3. I have blessed peace with my Lord so near, leaning on the everlasting arms.

Leaning, leaning, safe and secure from all alarms … leaning on the everlasting arms.
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O LORD, OUR LORD (Reference—Psalm 8:1ff)
“O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. … When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; What is man, that thou art mindful of him?”

O Lord, our Lord, how excellent Thy name; how excellent is Thy name in all the earth;
Who has set Thy glory above the heavens! We’ll praise Thy holy name forevermore.
We will praise Thy name forevermore, how excellent Thy glorious name;
We’ll praise and magnify Thy name for evermore…
We will laud and magnify Thy holy name for evermore
Forever and ever, we will magnify Thy name. Amen. Amen. Amen.
We will praise Thy holy name for ever, we will laud and magnify
Thy name for evermore, for evermore, for evermore, Amen, and Amen.
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By the way, this is true—this is really true! All these great hymns are in the 1st volume of “The Paperless Hymnal.” This is exciting! I wonder if they have ordered the 4 volumes yet. I guess we’re going to have to keep reminding “them” of the following (from the earlier post):

• My last suggestion for you as one who leads singing wonderfully is taking into consideration the use of “The Paperless Hymnal.” This allows projection of the lyrics and music notes onto the screen. There are 500 hymns and new songs in 4 volumes. We need some acceptable balance in the selection between great hymns of the past and the singy-clappy songs of the post-modern era. Surely, the church can afford a one-time charge of $500.00 for “UNITY’S SAKE”—everyone knows what this means. The address is:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/James_Tackett/multimed.htm

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Phil Sanders quoted:

“It would be better for some religious entertainment groups who are performing not to leave the impression that they are there to worship. Herein lies the confusion. Hats, sunglasses, cute remarks and jokes are appropriate for entertainment but not worship. There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). Such worshippers have already received their reward.

What is done in entertainment settings, though it be a gathering of Christians, should not be held as a pattern for what is to be done on the Lord's day. Distinguishing between such settings, as the church has done for many years, keeps the boundaries of entertainment and worship definitive. The recent blurrings of these distinctions, coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.”
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Donnie Cruz

Donnie, do you have the information on from where the Paperless Hymnal can be ordered? I would like to pass that information along to our worship leader and Elders. Thank you for your help.

Tom

Donnie, I just received the January issue of the Christian Chronicle and there is an advertisement for the Paperless Hymnal. Thanks for mentioning this innovation.

Tom

Tom,

For others who have an interest in the paperless hymnal, the link I listed earlier should take you to the homepage and the order form:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/James_Tackett/multimed.htm

May I point out that the post-modern view of the “worship leader” is foreign to the scriptural concept of the purpose of the assembling of the saints. Musical talent is a natural gift from God, but it is not one of the “spiritual gifts” specifically mentioned in the epistle to the Corinthians. In the same letter and in other passages, there have been in time God-ordained apostles, prophets, evangelists, elders and teachers, but not “worship leader.” Acts 20 provides us a scenario in which the saints assembled on the first day of the week to break bread (commemorate Christ’s suffering and death) and to preach-teach God’s word. It describes to us the SIMPLICITY of the gathering of Christians. Singing is not a command in worship, according to the letter to the Colossians, but it can occur. And it can occur as often as there is the gathering of the saints. In the same letter, it is letting “the word of Christ dwell in us richly” that is significant. The key task in the passage is teaching and admonishing one another. Apparently, other than verbally vocalizing the truth, singing is another avenue in the teaching process.

I simply cringe at the idea of being directed to God’s throne by a self-designated “worship leader” in some “worship entertainment center” or temple. Jesus Christ has vividly described to us what constitutes worship.

John 4:[20] Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. [21] Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. [22] Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. [23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

There has been so much controversy regarding the subject of worship, when there shouldn’t be. Unfortunately, the change agents operating in the brotherhood have subtly hidden their agenda under the guise of making worship the issue. The truth of the matter is that the hidden agenda involve changes in major fundamental doctrines and beliefs which the New Testament church has held for so long on the basis of the scriptures. It is really sad to hear the change agents being so outspoken about baptism as a non-essential in God’s scheme of redemption, or that God’s grace is all sufficient that Christians no longer have duties, responsibilities and obligations to maintain “works of righteousness” toward eternal salvation.

The reality is that the change agents have used the excuse that change in worship from “traditional” to “contemporary” is simply a change in STYLE or FORMAT. Nothing is farther from the truth. The stark reality is their attempt at CHANGE IN WORSHIP CONTENT—not style. We’ll try to explore this particular subject at some other time. But the point of it all is that when MUSICAL WORSHIP or “HOLY ENTERTAINMENT” is the emphasis in the “gathering of the saints,” it is no longer Word-centered.

The final point is regarding innovations. When Tom mentioned, “thanks for this innovation,” I couldn’t help but be reminded of the common argument that there is no reason whatsoever for the church to be so adamantly opposed to changes. That is correctly stated. Innovations, especially with the advancements in the technologies, should be welcomed. But, caution: so long as fundamental scriptural teachings, beliefs and practices of the New Testament church are unchanged. For example, God’s grace is still offered and made available to everyone who chooses to accept it—it does not restrict God to selectively CHOOSE ONLY those whom He wants saved. That doctrine must not change. Another example is when baptism towards the remission of sins is no longer taught as necessary for that purpose; instead it is only a test of obedience on the part of the believer (already a Christian). This new doctrine is unscriptural and wrong. These are only a few fundamental teachings that the change agents are subtly redirecting the church from believing. See what ConcernedMembers has been cautioning the brotherhood for months now?

The Paperless Hymnal is indeed a wonderful innovation. It does not alter God’s scheme of redemption or improvise His will and directives for the church. It does not change the scriptural design or purpose of baptism. Fact is that wonderful and scriptural hymns, which speak to us about reverent worship of our Father and about our constant need and guidance from above, have been being intentionally rejected and overridden by dominating and irreverent singy-clappy songs from the Charismatic and contemporary music cultures. If nothing else, the Paperless Hymnal will help us return to the true purpose of singing—teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs in the assembly of the saints. This will also lessen or eliminate the congregation’s dependence on the performances by the Praise Team—we can read the words and music notes and REALLY SING!

Donnie Cruz

Donnie, I certainly do not mean any disrespect, but I do not see any difference between the terms worship leader, song leader, song director or worship director, and often use the terms interchangably. I certainly understand that to others the term worship leader sets off alarms. However, since NONE of them can be found in scripture, I do not understand the difference.

Tom,

Thanks for pointing this out for further explanation from me personally and in view of what other passages have clearly stated in regard to God’s divine appointments of those in leadership roles. We are so familiar with the role of the elders and deacons, of evangelists, even of the apostles in the beginning. We are also familiar with the specific spiritual gifts of faith, word of wisdom, word of knowledge and other gifts specifically mentioned in the Corinthian letter. We are also familiar with the spiritual gifts that served their purposes in the beginning or during apostolic times: the working of miracles, healing, divers kinds of tongues, the interpretation of tongues.

I quoted or made references to certain passages in the preceding post to remind us of what truly were/have been divinely appointed roles in the church or what truly were/have been specific spiritual gifts. Worship leadership is a post-modern religious concept that goes beyond leading singing. That musical talent as a spiritual gift is also a post-modern religious concept—when in fact, it is a natural talent or gift from God.

I have no problem with a song leader or song starter as I see that simply as someone who leads singing or someone is a song starter—a matter of leading the congregation in a certain activity in worship called singing so that there is orderliness rather than chaos. A song director is quite OK (to me personally) when the task involved is along the line of simple song leading. The word “director” is somewhat an offensive title designation in “spiritual” terms in that it implies complexity in what is being “directed.” Is singing really that complex as to require “directing,” as in a concert or drama presentation? Worse than being a “song director” is the designated title of “music director”—in that music, by definition, may be either vocal and/or instrumental. Again, “directing” implies complexity, which simple congregational singing ought not to be. After all, in all of the New Testament, there is not the slightest hint that music (vocal &/or instrumental) has ever been made a requirement in worship. As I have stated earlier, even singing is not a command, although singing can occur because of the need to “let the word of Christ dwell in us richly,” the Colossian letter says. I have also stated that if singing can occur, it certain can occur as frequently as there is an assembly. The gathering of the saints provides an environment in which teaching and admonishing one another through singing can be accomplished.

Singing is only one activity, if it should be included as an activity in the assembly of the saints. I simply cannot envision the churches of Christ in the first century (in Jerusalem, Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, etc.) having their assemblies dominated by singing, instead of the teaching and preaching of God’s word. (Side note: I’m 99.999999% sure that the early congregations did not have “MUSICAL” concert-worship at all, much less a complicated and choreographed musical worship programming.)

My point is that when “singing” in “worship” is no longer simple, is not devoid of performance orientation, and is not Word-centered—such worship has lost its objective or purpose so far as worshipping the Father “in spirit and in truth” is concerned.

Now—addressing the issue of “WORSHIP LEADER”! When singing is part of the worship composite, singing is not the entire worship. Neither is preaching or teaching God’s word the entire worship. Yet, we do not refer to the minister of the word as a/the “worship leader”—but that is good because he is not. We do not refer to one who leads public prayer as a/the “worship leader”—well, he isn’t. And why suddenly we esteem someone who leads singing as “the worship leader.” Do you see the inconsistency here? It certainly makes the position of “our” WORSHIP LEADER appear more distinguished and honorable than that of “our” ELDERS.

In this postmodern era, we have made “MUSICAL WORSHIP” the essence of the gathering of the saints. This is where it is definitely misleading. Christians have come to learn mistakably that the MUSIC part in the assembly is the WORSHIP foundation. In all likelihood, singing was a minor activity in the early church. In contrast, MUSIC in 21st century Christianity, especially among young people in the midst of the contemporary “Christian” pop and rock music culture, has superseded in significance the commemoration of the Lord’s suffering and death (if and when observed), as well as the teaching of God’s word. With this in mind—that the “religious” gathering is mainly all about MUSICAL WORSHIP—the role becomes significant and the “worship leader” is seen indeed as someone who LEADS his [the worship leader’s] followers into the PRESENCE OF GOD. The worship leader plays “mediator” in the holy entertainment worship center—whether he/she or the congregation realizes it or not.

In conclusion, I really would like to see the apostle Paul visit one congregation of the 21st century in one of its assemblies. He’d probably demand that the “worship leader” sit down and yell at him, “shame … shame, what are you doing, man [or woman]? Just what are you doing? I’ve never heard such rah-rah-rah in reverent worship in my life, not even in those times when I was persecuting Christians. Spread out, praise teams, and unplug those microphones—I do not want being sung to anymore.” Further, an exclamation from Paul: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth.”

Ephesians 4:[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. (KJV)

I Corinthians 12: [27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. [28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (KJV)

No Christian should ever direct or lead another Christian into God’s holy presence.

“Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou are the Potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Search me and try me, Master, today!
Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
As in Thy presence humbly I bow.”

Donnie

Donnie, I agree with you that it is unlikely that any of the apostles would be familiar with the ways that we "do church." I think that includes any type of worship service that we have seen in the 19th, 20th, or 21st centuries. While it is certain that they would probably be uncomfortable in any of our more contemporary services, I think it is just as likely that they would be unfortable in the more traditional services as well.

They would not recognize the pew, just as they would not recognize the projection screen. They would not recognize individual cups and bread passed around, just as they would not recognize the song book. They would not recognize the song leader, just as they would not recognize the "worship leader." Neither, do I believe, would they recognize organized, orchestrated services (either contemporary or traditional, as we recognize them) as being similar to their gatherings in the first century.

Similarly, I believe that, although we promote a restoration of New Testament Christianity, we would be equally unfamiliar with the actual "worship services" (using this term only as a label we can understand) which took place in the first century church.

I guess my point is this: If we are to truly take Ken's (and I assume yours as well) teachings/admonitions to heart, we will all have to admit that a radical restructure of how we "do church" will have to be undertaken. We could not be complacent with just a return to the 1930's, 40's or 50's (or in other words, the way that we have always "done church" before many of us moved into more contemporary styles), but a total restructure of our basist, most fundamental beliefs about "church." I am not sure that most who hold to the more conservative or traditional beliefs are ready for that type of restructure. I think they would find that equally distasteful as what they see being practiced in the more "liberal" churches.

I would be interested in any feedback anyone would have on this.

Tom

• While it is certain that they [the apostles] would probably be uncomfortable in any of our more contemporary services, I think it is just as likely that they would be unfortable in the more traditional services as well.
  

Response: Because of their “apostolic” background, I don’t think that “uncomfortable” is the choice word here. As human beings, the apostles would be very easily comfortable being in “one Accord” [speaking of a car model] or in a Chevrolet as opposed to whatever mode of transportation was available to them in the first century.

I believe that the apostles would know instantly whether or not some false doctrine was being propagated both outside and within the church. The change agents operating in the brotherhood are resorting to false doctrines and half-truths or to compromising the truth in order to carry out their subversive schemes to “transform” congregations numerically into mega churches. In this case, the apostles would be much more than uncomfortable—they more likely would “drive the money changers out of the temple.”

• They would not recognize the pew … the projection screen … the individual cups … the song book … the song leader, just as they would not recognize the "worship leader." Neither, do I believe, would they recognize organized, orchestrated services (either contemporary or traditional, as we recognize them) as being similar to their gatherings in the first century.
  

Response: These examples have been overused by the change proponents in defense of “why these … but not why these?” [Note: Because of what “worship leader” connotes, I would not include it in the list, just as I would not include the office of the elder or the appointed apostle in the same category.]

The issue of what constitutes either apostolic traditions (doctrines, teachings, beliefs) or local church traditions (the use of a meeting place or a baptistery or designated time of assembly, the use of technological advances, etc.) has been discussed at length on various threads. Apostolic traditions and teachings must not change. Local traditions can be changed, of course, so long as they do not affect fundamental scriptural doctrines. There is no reason for non-essentials (songbook, power point, pews, individual cups, assembling in the gym, etc.) to become issues.

Neither should the order of “worship” activities be an issue—or even the worship style or format. But when worship format or style changes worship content, that’s when problems arise—a great example of this would be the change from Word- or God-centeredness to that of “holy” entertainment.

• Similarly, I believe that, although we promote a restoration of New Testament Christianity, we would be equally unfamiliar with the actual "worship services" (using this term only as a label we can understand) which took place in the first century church.
  

Response: The public assembly of Christians does not mainly comprise all of New Testament Christianity. The restoration of apostolic doctrines and beliefs found in the scriptures was/has been the main objective of the Restoration Movement. It’s all about rejecting denominationalism and human creeds; it’s all about a return to New Testament teachings, beliefs and practices. It’s all about the simplicity of the gospel of Christ, the basic doctrine that the unconverted must repent and be baptized (buried with Christ and resurrected with Him—meaning, in order for sins to be forgiven and to begin a new life of obedience and service). In the assembly of the saints for worship, it should be about worshipping God in spirit and in truth. The focus should be upon the Creator, not upon what cultural changes need to be implemented to make “worship” pleasing to the human sight and sound.

• If we are to truly take Ken's (and I assume yours as well) teachings/admonitions to heart, we will all have to admit that a radical restructure of how we "do church" will have to be undertaken … a total restructure of our basist, most fundamental beliefs about "church" … I am not sure that most who hold to the more conservative or traditional beliefs are ready for that type of restructure. I think they [the apostles] would find that equally distasteful as what they see being practiced in the more "liberal" churches.
  

Response: The subject of the non-essentials relative to worship has been discussed above. It all goes back to the problems arising from changes in doctrinal beliefs and teachings—part of this would be changes in worship CONTENT or FOCUS (to entertainment, etc.). If the “traditional” gathering for worship can be further simplified … the better!

Donnie Cruz